00:00:27 <oerjan> @let src0 f (a,b) | x == a = a | x == b = b | otherwise = (case (signum (f a), signum (f x), signum (f b)) of (_, 0, _) -> x; (-1, -1, 1) -> src0 f (x,b); (-1, 1, 1) -> src0 f (a,x); (1, 1, -1) -> src0 f (x,b); (1, -1, -1) -> src0 f (a,x); _ -> error "Bounds don't have opposite signs") where x = (a+b)/2
00:02:07 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.1) (0.3,0.4)
00:02:17 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.1) (0.3,0.4 :: CReal)
00:03:09 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.01) (0.3,0.4)
00:03:10 <lambdabot> *Exception: Bounds don't have opposite signs
00:03:23 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.66) (0.3,0.4)
00:03:25 <lambdabot> *Exception: Bounds don't have opposite signs
00:03:53 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.66) (0.01,1)
00:04:06 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.066) (0.01,1)
00:04:26 <oerjan> > src0 (\x -> log x/x - log 0.065) (0.01,1)
00:04:43 <Sgeo> .... people are being taught never to use GET because it's insecure?
00:05:30 <oerjan> maybe it's a fixpoint but not an attractor
00:05:55 <ais523> Sgeo: this is HTTP GET, right?
00:06:05 <Sgeo> But in the context of forms
00:06:09 <ais523> I can sort-of see how the message could get that distorted
00:06:28 <ais523> the correct rule, btw, is to never use GET for anything non-idempotent or that has side effects, otherwise always use it
00:06:49 <Sgeo> ais523: password that leads to a static site
00:07:03 <Bike> Sgeo: you know about how PHP used to only have register_globals for post i hope
00:07:06 <Sgeo> Don't want that password in history
00:07:16 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, you should use POST for that
00:07:33 <ais523> it's not exactly a side effect, but it behaves a lot like one
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00:08:10 <Bike> Sgeo: get is insecure, man!!
00:08:19 <Sgeo> So... POST used to be horribly insecure in PHP?
00:08:28 <Sgeo> erm, wait, anyone could POST maliciously anyway
00:08:32 <ais523> Sgeo: actually, everything used to be horribly insecure in PHP
00:09:15 <kmc> "used to be"
00:09:53 <kmc> also sending confidential information in GET requests is sketchy because more things will log URLs than will log POST bodies
00:11:01 <ais523> allowing information to escape into the wild is a side effect
00:12:17 <Sgeo> InfixE (Just (LitE (IntegerL 1))) (VarE GHC.Num.+) (Just (LitE (IntegerL 1)))
00:12:38 <_46bit> kmc, Bike: Taneb's talk is now up :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
00:12:46 <Sgeo> So, no AppE in that function application
00:13:32 <Sgeo> "Template Haskell brackets cannot be nested (without intervening splices)"
00:14:05 <kmc> _46bit: cool
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00:42:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: i see you're at the "soon to leave in disgust for the next language" stage with haskell :P
00:46:48 <Sgeo> I want to write code like this, but the sublanguage that would be defined would.. interact weirdly with laziness. And value is not first-class
00:47:11 <Sgeo> [impure| value [1, 2, 3] + value [4, 5, 6] |]
00:48:04 <Sgeo> The inner language would be Haskell-like, where value in a function application position rewrites the expression with bind and the remainder of the continuation
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00:49:36 <Sgeo> [impure| \x -> value x |] results in some error. If I don't bother with error checking in impure, the compiler may complain about undefined x... I hope
00:49:36 <oerjan> are you reinventing idiom brackets
00:49:39 <elliott> (+) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6]
00:49:45 <elliott> (| [1, 2, 3] + [4, 5, 6] |)
00:49:51 <Sgeo> oerjan: reverse idiom brackets, where the impure values are marked
00:50:10 <Sgeo> Seriously, marking the pure ones is silly for monads
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00:50:57 <Bike> more like loin, or something,
00:54:03 <Sgeo> Also let could be abused to imply sequencing
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01:12:43 <fizzie> @tell ais523 "prove, v. II. To make trial of; to try, test. 6. a. /trans/. To put (a person or thing) to the test; to test the genuineness or qualities of; (/Sc/.) to test by tasting, to sample. Now /rare/ in general use (but cf. technical uses at senses 6b, 6f, etc.). b. /trans/. To subject (any natural, prepared, or manufactured substance or object, now esp. a firearm) to a testing process." (OED)
01:13:18 <ais523> fizzie: huh, interesting
01:14:00 <fizzie> (Not that I claim that's the sense of "prove" they were thinking of when writing that message.)
01:14:48 <Bike> like 'proving grounds' i guess
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01:24:30 <oerjan> @ask olsner <olsner> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/aliens-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <-- does this mean you _cannot_ kill it with fire?
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02:09:36 <oerjan> @ask Taneb WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS
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02:27:52 <Sgeo> The fun part is that in Scala and Scheme, value could certainly be first-class
02:27:55 <Sgeo> But not Haskell
02:39:55 <Sgeo> ....is it possible to have class declarations inside let?
02:40:07 <Sgeo> The types involved in TH don't forbid it
02:40:27 <kmc> you can have fixity declarations inside let/where
02:40:29 <kmc> by accident?
02:40:43 <Sgeo> I guess there is a lot of illegal syntax constructible in TH
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03:28:28 <Sgeo> nasa-revealed.com
03:28:48 <Sgeo> "SORRY!!! TO learn about the origins of the NASA CONSPIRACY you must have a newer browser. Please try upgrading to the AWESOME Internet Explorer TWO POINT OH. Thankx!!"
03:30:45 <Sgeo> <p align="center" blinking="hell yes">
03:34:27 <ion> For a second i thought The Onion really made an effort for http://www.theonion.com/articles/slowwitted-conspiracy-theorist-convinced-governmen,34749/ but that seems to be a fan creation instead.
03:44:36 * Sgeo reads about MFlow
03:45:06 <Sgeo> Continuation-based web framework without the ugly URLs and need to store hard-to-serialize continuations?
03:45:39 <Sgeo> "NOTE2: Since the SOH uses HTTPS, the browser reject the load of third party scripts, such is JQuery, so look at the notes of each example."
03:45:43 <Sgeo> The ... fudge?
03:46:04 <Sgeo> Suddenly I'm not sure this person is competent to write a web framework tutorial
03:48:34 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5269634/address-width-from-ram-depth fuck the world
03:49:53 <Sgeo> ....that person is the creator of the web framework in question
03:49:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to go sit down and cry somewhere.
03:50:55 <Bike> isn't "stateful, RESTful web framework" kind of an oxymmoron
03:51:30 <Sgeo> It puts state in its URIs fairly directly.
03:51:38 <Sgeo> http://mflowdemo.herokuapp.com/
03:51:51 <Sgeo> Click Database examples. Then click Database examples again. Then click Database examples again.
03:53:29 <oerjan> @tell Taneb also some parts of that could have needed subtitles hth
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04:10:47 <Bike> i'm growing more and more convinced that nobody actually uses verilog. there's no other explanation
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05:11:25 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 3h 1m 48s ago: WHAT DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS
05:11:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 17m 56s ago: also some parts of that could have needed subtitles hth
05:11:48 <Taneb> @tell oerjan all esolangers have too much time. It's an art, you need too much time.
05:12:08 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I think I have precisely the wrong accent for transcribed captions or sanity
05:12:51 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1m 2s ago: all esolangers have too much time. It's an art, you need too much time.
05:12:51 <lambdabot> Taneb said 42s ago: I think I have precisely the wrong accent for transcribed captions or sanity
05:14:34 <oerjan> sanity is not necessary, just diction.
05:14:48 <oerjan> also INTERCAL does too have arrays hth
05:22:26 <Taneb> I knew I was going to make mistakes about INTERCAL
05:22:58 <Taneb> Also I've been messing with Python again (help)
05:23:27 <Taneb> quintopia, my program has behaviour that I do not know the cause of
05:23:38 <Taneb> Possibly because my program is stupid and weird
05:23:58 <quintopia> Taneb: i was going to suggest that maybe it is the program author that is stupid and weird hth
05:24:17 <Taneb> quintopia, the program author is definitely acting stupid and weird
05:24:30 <Taneb> Whether he is actually stupid or weird, nobody knows
05:24:42 <Taneb> Also, I had just missed a break statement
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05:34:42 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czjaNCR0SBA
05:34:53 <Sgeo> No idea what that video si about
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07:07:43 <Bike> why the hell is there such a thing as a lut1 and why are they in this schematic
07:10:04 <Bike> i guess it's for routing. wack, man.
07:10:36 <Bike> it's kind of weird how there's like a billion levels of abstraction and things that don't exist in something that's nominally 'close to metal'.
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07:33:49 <kmc> you think that's air you're breathing now?
07:34:28 <kmc> because it's so easy?
07:35:08 <shachaf> no because breathing it is fun + healthy
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07:35:28 <kmc> health tips from shachaf
07:36:12 <shachaf> what was that story (heinlein?) where the person was complaining about air not being free
07:36:26 <shachaf> apparently it was in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
07:36:40 <shachaf> says http://bastiatscorner.blogspot.com/p/heinlein-quotes.html
07:39:28 <shachaf> kmc: what else is fun + healthy to breathe though
07:41:07 <kmc> isn't it weird how when you're writing prose, the first 20 words take as long as the next 1,000
07:41:10 <kmc> that's how it is for me anyway
07:41:44 <kmc> also it's hard to write anything without becoming demoralized by how terrible it is
07:43:56 <douglass_> though actually I find that staying up for 26-30 hours is best for the writing of prose
07:44:52 <kmc> technical blog post
07:45:03 <kmc> so drunkenness may be unhelpful
07:45:18 <douglass_> yeah, my advice is for humanities papers, not things that have to make sense
07:45:28 <kmc> your standards for the humanities are low
07:45:37 <kmc> because you went to a tech school
07:45:48 <Sgeo> Today in bad Hackage libraries, meet wai-middleware-headers
07:45:49 <Sgeo> "Adds cors support to WAI" = Just shove Allow-Access-Control-Origin: * in front of each response
07:45:50 <douglass_> my high school had decent standards
07:46:01 <Sgeo> https://github.com/seanhess/wai-middleware-headers/blob/master/Network/Wai/Middleware/Headers.hs
07:46:03 <kmc> i read that as "wet-middleware-headers"
07:46:22 <shachaf> are tech schools good should i go to one
07:46:32 <douglass_> and i wrote the hs papers on sleep dep too
07:46:36 <kmc> is there a comprehensive list of HTTP headers, and which ones would be good names for bands
07:46:50 <shachaf> kmc: is there anything which would not be a good name for a band
07:47:17 <kmc> at last year's MIT Mystery Hunt there was a team whose name was the complete text of _Atlas Shrugged_
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07:47:55 <douglass_> ask your doctor if tech schools(TM) are right for you
07:48:15 <kmc> (it turns out that Google Docs does not have a size limit on the text in a cell)
07:48:57 <shachaf> kmc: as my attorney what do you advise
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07:52:09 <kmc> http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Z111.jpg
07:52:42 <shachaf> apathy is good but what should i care about
07:55:18 -!- kmc has set topic: NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH | Although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not? | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:03:30 <kmc> `run unicode 'OCTOPUS' 'EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS'
08:04:03 <kmc> combining octopus above
08:04:10 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
08:06:29 <kmc> Miracle Techno from Planet X
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08:16:04 <FireFly> reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6a4EFa7wK8
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08:27:43 <kmc> shachaf: do you like an octopus
08:30:12 <kmc> "He knew how to outmaneuver them, to outflank them, and to outthink them. He knew full well, many years ago, what today's octopus wrestlers are just beginning to learn—that it is impossible for a man with two arms to apply a full nelson on an octopus; he knew full well the futility of trying for a crotch hold on an opponent with eight crotches."
08:30:40 <olsner> those are all good things to know
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08:45:06 <shachaf> "To skip these instructions, press 4. To hear the list of questions, press 1. Press 7 to press 3. To press 1, press 8. To press 6, press 2. Press 5 to press 7. To hear the answers, press 6. Press 0 to press [star]. To hear the instructions backwards, press 9. Press [star] to press 0. Press 3 if you really want to."
08:46:31 <myname> shachaf: is it transitive?
08:46:48 <myname> i.e. if i press 0, will it cause an endless loop?
08:50:20 <Sgeo_> I guess raising an issue on the project "This entire concept is idiotic and bad" would be a bit rude
08:53:48 <kmc> submit a pull request which removes all every file
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08:57:45 <Sgeo_> I might submit a pull request adding stuff to the README
08:58:08 <Sgeo_> I can see a use-case, I think it would be useful for dropbox (they're doing equivalent I believe)
08:58:25 <Sgeo_> But "adds cors support"... doesn't cut it
08:58:29 <Taneb> I was going to write a compliant Underload interpreter, wasn't I?
09:21:45 <kmc> hm so are computers / languages with limited memory typically equivalent to a finite state machine or to a linear bounded automaton?
09:22:25 <kmc> wikipedia says the latter but I think a LBA has a bound which grows with the length of the input string
09:22:54 <Taneb> I think if the program is inputted on a tape maybe they are linear bounded?
09:23:08 <Taneb> But if the program is internally stored then finite state
09:23:54 <Taneb> I don't know why you are trusting me on this, though
09:26:02 <kmc> the truth is out there
09:26:08 <kmc> i want to believe
09:26:22 * kmc hugs shachaf
09:26:55 <Taneb> Did you two see my esolangs talk?
09:27:04 <kmc> not yet but i will watch it
09:27:14 <shachaf> I didn't know esolangs could talk at all.
09:27:16 <Taneb> (it's not that great)
09:27:28 <Taneb> shachaf, here's a video of them in the act! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
09:27:56 <shachaf> i heard that the video is not that great
09:28:13 <shachaf> also my internet connection is bad
09:28:13 <Taneb> No, it was recorded on one of my friend's laptop
09:28:27 <Taneb> Also I was kind of nervous
09:28:41 <shachaf> i have the feeling my pronunciation of "esoteric" is nonstandard
09:28:46 <shachaf> but i like it too much to check
09:29:01 <Taneb> shachaf, it's more likely mine is, I pronounce a fair few words incorrectly
09:29:30 <shachaf> oh, audience participation
09:29:37 <shachaf> hmm i don't know what a programming language is
09:30:11 <Taneb> Yeah, my pronunciation was wrong throughout
09:30:35 <shachaf> ok i can't watch this, everything is too slow
09:30:50 <shachaf> imo come to california and talk about esolangs here
09:31:33 <Taneb> I would if you played for the flight and the hotel
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09:32:08 <Taneb> The... most dangerous game
09:32:20 <Taneb> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1488
09:33:06 <FireFly> Good talk, but it didn't mention Feather
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09:52:10 * kmc concludes his writing for the evening by inserting "FIXME: this is bullshit"
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10:14:39 <kmc> shachaf: file that in the hug tracker
10:15:20 <shachaf> the nsa is tracking our hugs
10:15:41 <shachaf> imo it's time for untrackable, anonymous hugs
10:16:22 <shachaf> do you know any good zero-knowledge hugs
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10:17:33 <kmc> RSA blind hugs
10:17:36 <kmc> shamir hug sharing
10:21:20 <shachaf> there's some sort of established social norm for how long a hug should be that i wasn't really aware of
10:21:51 <kmc> i think there are many such norms and it's complicated
10:21:52 <shachaf> but kmc goes a little longer than that. it's like a different level of hug
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10:22:29 <shachaf> it's like that diner we went to that advertises that you always get a little extra milk shake in the can
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10:22:52 <kmc> that is a common property of diners
10:22:58 <kmc> but i don't think they make a big deal about it usually
10:23:13 <shachaf> ok kmc is like a diner that doesn't make a big deal about it
10:24:08 <shachaf> anyway perhaps it's only that i'm bad at telling which of the many complicated social norms apply
10:24:22 <kmc> or that i'm bad at following the prevailing norms
10:24:24 <kmc> i just like hugs
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10:25:18 <shachaf> did you know that "macaron" and "macaroon" refer to two completely different cookie-type things
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10:25:48 <kmc> Not to be confused with Macaroon, Macron, McCarron, or Macaroni.
10:28:03 <shachaf> i had some today and they were good
10:28:15 <shachaf> but maybe not too sweet it's hard to say
10:28:36 <shachaf> imo how can hugs be too sweet
10:33:12 <shachaf> also it's independence day
10:33:21 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:33:21 +0200
10:33:38 <kmc> happy finland to us all
10:33:59 <kmc> independence from... sweden? no, russia
10:34:37 <kmc> russia started having a revolution and a civil war and finland was like "see ya"
10:34:56 * kmc visits google.fi
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10:44:57 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:04 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:38 <int-e> @check \(x, y) -> (x>1) ==> (x**y > (y::Double))
10:45:39 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests and 1 shrink):
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10:53:38 <kmc> shachaf: do you have a link to a copy of "Liking What You See"
10:54:20 <kmc> http://www.ibooksonline.com/88/Text/liking.html i guess but it's poorly formatted
10:54:29 <shachaf> i think maybe technically it isn't supposed to be online so sometimes copies disappear
10:54:41 <shachaf> there's -- yes, that one, but the formatting is bad
10:54:51 <shachaf> and also it pops up a "like us on facebook" popup after a few seconds
10:55:17 <kmc> i do have a pdf of the whole book
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11:13:02 <fizzie> It's like past 1pm and I just woke up.
11:13:03 <fizzie> `thanks independence day
11:13:05 <HackEgo> Thanks, independence day. Thindependence day.
11:14:00 <Taneb> fizzie, did you see my esotalk?
11:14:05 <kmc> how does one traditionally celebrate finnish independence day
11:14:54 <fizzie> Taneb: I did not see it.
11:15:14 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
11:15:40 <shachaf> kmc: sleeping until like past 1pm
11:15:50 <shachaf> which i guess is finnish for 13
11:16:01 <fizzie> kmc: My wife's family has a tradition of baking christmas gingerbread cookies, but I don't think that's standard.
11:16:23 <fizzie> (Canceled this year due to a cold.)
11:17:14 <fizzie> Also we're going to have that Pallini event I was talking about but that's not standard either.
11:17:33 <kmc> any kind of food / booze / explosions
11:17:54 <shachaf> i ate gingerbread macarons
11:18:17 <fizzie> I think the thing most people do is to watch the Official Party (where all the Important People are invited) on TV.
11:18:40 <shachaf> not all the important people
11:19:17 <Taneb> I was invited but couldn't make it due to presenting an esotalk
11:19:32 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Finland)#State_festivities
11:19:44 <shachaf> is "beer, burritos, bong hits" another instance of it
11:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, right, also Tuntematon sotilas.
11:20:29 <kmc> liberté = explosions, égalité = food, fraternité = booze?
11:21:30 <kmc> i guess liberté has to be bong hits as well then unless we're willing for things to get confusing
11:22:25 <fizzie> I think we only have the booze component here, but we do that for every possible excuse.
11:22:52 <fizzie> Where "we" refers to Finland in general, this time.
11:23:08 <shachaf> if i lived in finland would i booze
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11:26:40 <fizzie> It's not required, it's only strongly encouraged.
11:26:58 <kmc> & dreams of finnish vodka
11:28:52 <kmc> imo move your independence day to july, then you can do grilling / swimming / drinking of beers in the outdoors / etc
11:29:01 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
11:29:05 <kmc> wise move by the signers of the Declaration of Independence
11:29:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: already pbflisted
11:29:43 <shachaf> maybe you should be on the list
11:30:31 <shachaf> if you're not on the list why are you hilighting us
11:32:20 <ion> Should pbflist *do* something?
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11:39:03 <lexande> kmc: they have a midsummer holiday
11:39:15 <lexande> wikipedia says "Rituals include bonfires, cookouts, a sauna and spending time together. Heavy drinking is also associated with the Finnish midsummer."
11:39:23 <lexande> so basically it sounds like they've got that covered
11:39:58 <lexande> (also since when does US independence day involve swimming?)
11:41:27 <fizzie> Taneb: Has anyone followed your #esoteric whiteboardlink?
11:47:45 <ion> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/heman.jpg
11:48:35 <Taneb> fizzie, of the six people in the audience, a couple have already been to #esoteric and I don't think any of the others are here now
11:53:05 <Taneb> fizzie, what did you think of the talk?
11:53:36 <Taneb> ion, doesn't everybody look like that
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12:34:31 <mroman_> Nowadays if you write #esoteric some people probably will go on twitter .
12:34:49 <Taneb> mroman_, I did write #esoteric@irc.freenode.net
12:35:06 <Taneb> All the people there in person were familiar with IRC
12:36:26 <mroman_> Taneb: What was the audience btw?
12:38:01 <Taneb> It was some people from my uni's computer enthusiasts' society
12:42:43 <mroman_> I like your pronunciation of Urban Mueler
12:44:37 <fizzie> Taneb: So far I've only watched the first ten minutes, but, well, actually, I don't really have any comments. Except that you looked kind of more normal than I was expecting from my conception of the Abstract Taneb, but that's not really a comment about the talk itself.
12:45:39 <Taneb> mroman_, how horrendous was it?
12:45:46 <fizzie> Nice choice of related videosin the sidebar, though. ("Brother Panic: Programming Chakras in The Dream World", "PHP Programming Language For Newbies - 11 - PHP Functions", ...)
12:45:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FGKQu70TU
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12:46:36 <FireFly> I wonder if the surname Miller comes fro Mueller...
12:47:15 <mroman_> It's the kind of profession that has something todo with windmills and corn stuff
12:47:26 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I can't actually tell if that was sarcastic or sincere
12:47:48 <mroman_> Miller = Mueller, Smith = Schmied and so on
12:47:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, elliott_ insists the right way to say it is with a short 'eh' at the start, i think this is stupid & wrong
12:48:25 <mroman_> Taneb: If I wouldn't have already known the name I would have misunderstood it
12:48:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Wiktionary says short e, as does my knowledge of ancient greek
12:48:53 <Taneb> However I must agree that short 'eh' sounds stupid
12:49:18 <Taneb> Although with my pronunciation of finite that may make me somewhat hypocritical
12:49:25 <mroman_> Taneb: but that's ok. Pronouncing foreign names is hard
12:49:29 <fizzie> ("Mylläri" in Finnish.)
12:49:48 <Taneb> fizzie, that looks worryingly Indo-European
12:49:51 <fizzie> (Though not a common surname here, I think.)
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12:52:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, at least xylophone is consistent with most of the other words beginning with hang on I'm complaining about English being inconsistent I'll stop
12:52:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Probably Sweden's fault again; it usually is. (It's "mjölnare" there, I believe.)
12:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> that's exactly my point, we pronounce initial x as z, in greek it was just ks
12:53:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I was going into a rant about how the common pronunciation of finite is awful
12:54:09 <b_jonas> Taneb: pronunciation of finite/infinite in English is crazy
12:54:53 <Taneb> Actually how did I pronounce Mueller
12:55:21 <b_jonas> sign/signal, finite/infinite, cycle/bicycle, number/{all adjectives starting wtih nume}
12:55:22 <fizzie> (Also "xylophone" is spelled "ksylofoni" in Finnish.)
12:59:54 <b_jonas> numerous, numeric, numerical, numeral, numeracy, numerator, numerology, numerate, Numenor,
13:00:02 <b_jonas> there's so many words starting with nume-
13:02:37 <fizzie> That's Númenor, it starts with núme-.
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13:05:26 <mroman_> Taneb: Like mule with an r at the end :)
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13:05:39 <mroman_> and Urban like the english word urban
13:05:52 <Taneb> mroman_, I was going by the yoghurt company
13:06:03 <Taneb> And misremembering that anyway
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13:19:00 <boily> good what-the-fungot-is-eisc morning!
13:19:01 <fungot> boily: i'd rather have a fold up keyboard." says the official documentation
13:19:46 <fizzie> Curious thing to put in the official documentation.
13:20:05 <int-e> good morning morning ruddy
13:20:06 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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13:37:33 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/dream.png
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13:47:16 <nortti> https://github.com/landondyer/kasm/blob/master/LICENSE
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14:04:57 <mroman_> boily: Are you referring to the esowiki article "EISC"?
14:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (i thought it was merely 'funny' before i realised the picture was of mandela)
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14:06:28 <ion> I uploaded it to imgur. http://imgur.com/gallery/Zp71DUL
14:06:32 <boily> nortti: as a professional working in the IT field, I agree.
14:09:37 <nooodl> while we're complaining about Taneb's pronunciation of things istr quine is pronounced queen? but maybe i'm wrong
14:10:41 <nooodl> (where the heck did i pick that up)
14:11:12 <ion> Show must go on
14:13:54 <mroman_> boily: It's an Esoteric Instruction Set Computer
14:14:04 <mroman_> it's only logical that there has to be an EISC.
14:21:12 <mroman_> I'd want a license that when used commercially requires you to donate 1% of earnings with said product to some non-profit organisation not related to the own company
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15:14:23 <metasepia> Your divination: "Infiltrating" to "Limping"
15:14:42 <boily> hm. how can I apply that to ACL in CSV for an ERP?
15:14:56 <Bike> erotic roleplay?
15:15:45 <boily> stuck with undocumented permission lists for models in an Enterprise Resource Planning Platform (namely, OpenERP).
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15:21:35 <boily> @tell oerjan why are you øing the entries?
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15:31:33 <b_jonas> {string(m)[]{"\"",",","\\","{string(m)[]{","};for(int(k):m[5])cout<<m[k-48];}","302001010102201030104010504"};for(int(k):m[5])cout<<m[k-48];}
15:31:42 <b_jonas> do we have a geordi bot on this channel?
15:32:02 <b_jonas> it's a bot that evaluates C++
15:34:50 <boily> `run echo -e '#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) {\ncout << "Hello, world!" << endl;\nreturn 0;\n}' >bin/a.cpp; g++ a.cpp -o bin/a; bin/a
15:34:55 <HackEgo> g++: a.cpp: No such file or directory \ g++: no input files \ bash: bin/a: No such file or directory
15:34:59 <boily> `run echo -e '#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) {\ncout << "Hello, world!" << endl;\nreturn 0;\n}' >bin/a.cpp; g++ bin/a.cpp -o bin/a; bin/a
15:35:24 <boily> `run rm bin/a{,.cpp}
15:35:37 <boily> b_jonas: I think we do.
15:36:33 <Taneb> Have any of you seen the King James Programming tumblr/
15:37:10 <Taneb> I know the guy who runs it
15:37:32 <Taneb> What did you think of it?
15:37:54 <boily> I lauged, I smiled, I need to spam my cow orkers with it :D
15:38:29 <b_jonas> boily: nah, then I'd have to port this line to not use the geordi prelude and it would be too long
15:39:13 <b_jonas> not only because of not using the geordi prelude, but because of all that echo '\n and gcc stuff I have to add
15:39:55 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: we could probably add a command to HackEgo to remove the need to call echo & g++ directly
15:42:52 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\ncat >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp
15:43:05 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: or just ask Eelis or someone running a geordi to join it here
15:45:49 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:45:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/runcpp: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/runcpp: cannot execute: Permission denied
15:46:04 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:46:08 <HackEgo> /tmp/in.cpp:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 2: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
15:46:30 <mrhmouse> FireFly: maybe it's not processing \n as a new line?
15:47:14 <FireFly> You meant in the source code
15:48:07 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\nsed 's/\\n/\n/g' >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp && chmod a+x bin/runcpp
15:48:21 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:48:24 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: unterminated `s' command \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 3: /n/g: No such file or directory \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 3: /tmp/a.out: No such file or dire
15:49:28 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\nsed s:\\\\n:\\n:g >/tmp/in.cpp <<<"$@"; g++ -o /tmp/a.out /tmp/in.cpp; /tmp/a.out' >bin/runcpp && chmod a+x bin/runcpp
15:49:41 <mrhmouse> `runcpp #include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main(void) { cout << "Hello, world!" << endl; return 0; }
15:49:45 <HackEgo> /tmp/in.cpp:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive \ /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': \ (.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ /hackenv/bin/runcpp: line 2: /tmp/a.out: No such file or directory
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15:50:59 <mrhmouse> I'll give it a shot later I suppose
15:51:46 <lambdabot> boily said 30m 10s ago: why are you øing the entries?
15:51:59 <oerjan> boily: i have no idea what you are talking about?
15:52:18 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: steal the geordi prelude too
15:53:15 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: includes lots of headers by default, plus defines a few utility macros and stuff that come useful in an evalbot
15:53:25 <b_jonas> https://github.com/Eelis/geordi/blob/master/prelude/prelude.hpp
15:54:01 <boily> oerjan: you are adding «ø» to entries.
15:54:03 <b_jonas> http://eel.is/geordi/ does tell some things about it
15:54:35 <b_jonas> but I think it would be easier to ask Eelis to join his bot here
15:56:34 <mrhmouse> Actually, I wonder if we can't just have HackEgo ask geordi
15:56:56 <boily> you want to chain multiple bots together?
15:56:58 <mrhmouse> Not that that's any easier. Just out of curiousity.
15:57:12 <oerjan> boily: i cannot on the spot see a single example on the HackEgo repository front page
15:57:45 <boily> oerjan: am I confusing you with someone else?
15:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN... er, reddit: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1s6wce/nelson_mandela_has_passed_away/cduxlj5
15:58:34 <boily> oerjan: oh, yes I am. my mind once again failed to distinguish you from olsner.
15:59:17 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, well, at least the poster had the grace to stand corrected
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15:59:58 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls wisdom | grep '[[:upper:]]'
16:00:00 <HackEgo> EVERYONE \ Ø \ wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
16:00:24 <HackEgo> Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
16:00:26 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: I did that (chaining bots) once
16:00:33 <oerjan> i think the others are intentional.
16:01:11 <b_jonas> specifically, at one point I hooked jevalbot so the J interpreter can call a foreign function that made my bot ask buubot in private message and return the result to the J script
16:01:40 <b_jonas> it can no longer do that now
16:01:52 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
16:02:08 <oerjan> boily: it's simple, olsner is swedish with a nick that looks danish, while i am norwegian with a nick that looks swedish hth
16:02:24 <b_jonas> `run ls wisdom | tr a-z n-za-m
16:02:25 <HackEgo> Af gur jvfqbz qverpgbel pbagnvaf znal svyrf anzrq nsgre avpxf, yvfgvat vg va choyvp naablf crbcyr. Tel uggcf://qy.qebcobkhfrepbagrag.pbz/h/2023808/jvfqbz.cqs vafgrnq.
16:02:35 * boily hides under his desk. «je suis sain d'esprit. je suis sain d'esprit. je suis sain d'esprit.»
16:02:44 <b_jonas> `run echo wisdom/* | tr a-z n-za-m
16:02:46 <HackEgo> jvfqbz/` jvfqbz/`? jvfqbz/ jvfqbz/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ jvfqbz/? jvfqbz/?? jvfqbz/@ jvfqbz/\ jvfqbz/☃ jvfqbz/⌨ jvfqbz/⊥ jvfqbz/🐐 jvfqbz/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̚̚
16:04:06 <boily> 11am is a nice time to wake up.
16:04:30 <oerjan> apparently the olsner family comes from: germany, preussen, and luchtenbugel. source: http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=olsner
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16:09:33 <oerjan> boily: i also just woke up hth
16:09:55 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Dec 6 17:09:55 2013
16:10:04 <quintopia> oerjan: is it the freakin' weekend baby?
16:10:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:10:18 <oerjan> let's see if we can get rid of boily's sanity already.
16:10:36 <oerjan> quintopia: well that too.
16:11:32 * boily senses a disturbance in the Sanity...
16:13:51 <oerjan> it's the time of accelerated mass...
16:14:23 -!- augur has joined.
16:14:27 <quintopia> it's the time of change in momentum...
16:15:51 <oerjan> it's working across the distance...
16:16:40 * boily fiercely wields his mapole.
16:19:30 <oerjan> boily: resistance is fu^Wpotential divided by current
16:22:26 <quintopia> today is independence day? finland has gone mad? halp
16:24:08 <oerjan> it's that time of the year again when they eat mämmi and shoot down aliens
16:25:10 <quintopia> ah but they are calmed down now apparently
16:27:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the lack of evidence is because obama covered it up duh
16:31:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ try: \ print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown character.'
16:32:36 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER M'
16:33:14 <HackEgo> [U+7CBF CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7CBF] [U+689D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-689D]
16:33:38 <boily> meh. not even nciku can define 粿.
16:35:13 <oerjan> google translate says "Cake" hth
16:38:41 <boily> “cooked rice for making cake”. not quite not quite related to what 粿條 means (kuy teav, or hủ tiếu), which is a kind of soup.
16:40:40 <oerjan> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_kway_teow#Etymology
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16:47:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xyzzy: not found
16:51:17 <boily> `run echo 'A hollow voice says "Plugh"' >wisdom/plugh
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16:54:31 <boily> ruddy: are you magic?
16:54:41 <boily> I am magic. I am also sane.
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16:54:58 <mroman_> What instructions/features should a CPU have to support certain more or less often used algorithms?
16:55:13 <mroman_> Like reversing bits for fast fourier transforms
16:55:36 <Slereah_> Depends on what you want it to do I guess?
16:56:20 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
16:56:22 <mroman_> There are instructions which are *important* for certain algorithms to work or make the efficient
16:56:30 <fungot> FireFly: hi fnord :) and then this one from a dostoyevsky novel. do you have an example of something that's infinite. :p though i guess they have an annoying registering system here, if that code would suddenly produce " 21" monitor
16:56:30 <ruddy> are you FireFly FireFly
16:56:36 <mroman_> like having cmpxchg supporting quadwords on 32bit machines
16:56:48 <mroman_> which allows tagged pointers which are required for certain lock free algorithms
16:57:14 <Slereah_> Well yes but which algorithms do you want!
16:57:27 <Slereah_> I mean, some are pretty commonly used functions I guess
16:57:46 <b_jonas> mroman_: or just cmpxchg in first place which you need to implement smp locks
16:58:18 <b_jonas> no, you need cmpxchg for lock-free atomic values, not locks
16:58:34 <mroman_> test and set should be enough for locks I guess
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17:03:23 <mrhmouse> what the..? ruddy, why did you ping out?
17:03:24 <ruddy> dummy provides: eval choose dummy
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17:10:55 <impomatic> mov cx,0 / xchg cx, word[LOCK] / jcxz LOCKED is sufficient, where 0 = locked, non-zero = unlocked
17:13:56 <ruddy> quintopia! quintopia!
17:14:05 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:15:18 <mrhmouse> quintopia: not sure if having ruddy say that is worth much if its in the ignore list :P
17:15:59 <quintopia> mrhmouse: it could be better, yeah
17:22:42 <FireFly> Look, even ruddy itself agrees
17:22:43 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:22:56 <FireFly> Yeah, I think it's better if it stays silent
17:23:00 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
17:24:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:24:20 <Taneb> ruddy, do you read Homestuck?
17:24:21 <ruddy> @list read didn't read your 11:42
17:24:37 <Taneb> fungot, do YOU read Homestuck?
17:24:37 <fungot> Taneb: thread-sleep! by way of optimization, but it's something weird
17:24:51 <Taneb> Well, Homestuck is pretty much always doing something weird
17:24:53 <FireFly> I think that's a fungot 'yes'
17:24:53 <fungot> FireFly: will someone please echo the character at fnord to start nyx?? if so, what are they trying to say
17:25:12 <FireFly> fungot: how should I know what they're trying to say?!
17:25:13 <fungot> FireFly: whatcha writing? c in bf? if so, i might add. now i'm sweating like a mule in sunny and humid florida.
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17:29:07 <quintopia> mrhmouse: here's a better idea. make it so ruddy always has something to say.
17:29:17 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:29:38 <mrhmouse> quintopia: ruddy is a big hack, though. I probably won't do any more work on it.
17:29:48 <mrhmouse> I might make a replacement, though.
17:30:55 <mrhmouse> ruddy: you hear that? they want to delete you.
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17:32:17 <FireFly> ruddy: are you saying that you're in favor of that?
17:32:34 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:32:55 <quintopia> you'd think it'd at least say "hth" there
17:33:20 <quintopia> mrhmouse: when someone says thank you
17:33:38 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:34:12 <mrhmouse> Apparently we don't thank people enough for it to have a suitable response? It's also possible that it managed to skip all of the words while building a message.
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17:48:02 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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17:53:40 <mrhmouse> ruddy, I hope your sass survives in your next iteration.
17:53:42 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
17:55:00 <quintopia> mrhmouse: it would have been fine if it didn't fail to come up with anything so damn often
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17:56:33 <mrhmouse> quintopia: that's mostly due to how it munges messages, which is just by throwing away random parts from several messages and then combining them
17:56:47 <mrhmouse> sometimes it just happens to throw everything out.. I'll fix that for the next one
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17:58:36 <FireFly> mrhmouse: my similar bot goes with the most unique word in the line that it could actually build a reply out of
18:00:42 <mrhmouse> FireFly: ruddy works in a similar way. It gets a list of the most similar messages in its history, giving more weight to uncommon words and shorter messages
18:00:50 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
18:01:03 <mrhmouse> alright, ruddy, that's annoying. I'm fixing you.
18:01:04 <ruddy> I don't know. What do you think, fungot?
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18:08:04 <mrhmouse> ruddy: are you done being annoying?
18:08:05 <ruddy> consider and boing.. you're done
18:09:44 <mroman_> I hate it when professors think I misunderstood something and therefore don't bother to answer my actual question
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18:15:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Hi: not found
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18:18:29 <quintopia> mrhmouse: did you make it start over and try again when it fails to make a message? (with a timeout of course)
18:19:05 <FireFly> ruddy: make messages, not war
18:19:06 <ruddy> one of those lend-lease because replies are based off of the order of messages, and i'm
18:19:25 <mrhmouse> quintopia: without a timeout, but yes.
18:20:15 <quintopia> mrhmouse: what if it always fails because not enough data? infinite loop!
18:22:42 <ruddy> No clue what you mean. What do you think, fungot?
18:23:05 <mrhmouse> it has to have data before it starts munging. I put the loop in the munging logic
18:23:50 <quintopia> ruddy: ruddy ruddy ruddy ruddy ruddy
18:23:51 <ruddy> quintopia quintopia
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18:47:01 <mrhmouse> are there any stack-syntax esolangs that operate on a stack of values (primitives or other stacks) and allow word definition?
18:52:33 <FireFly> mrhmouse: Forth? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forth
18:54:09 <mrhmouse> FireFly: I don't know that I'd consider Forth an esolang
18:56:41 <FireFly> Well it has an esolang article
18:57:16 <FireFly> As does Perl, which I guess supports the theory that it's an esolang
18:57:29 <kmc> what about C++
18:57:38 <boily> fungot: how do you measure a languages esotlanguishness?
18:57:38 <fungot> boily: in sicp, like the multi-core systems that are capable of making a language about kitty pidgin. weirder things have happened
18:57:59 <boily> fungot: you're telling me that weirder things than kitty pidgins happened?
18:57:59 <fungot> boily: ( impossible? oh well... bye, and thanks
18:58:04 <boily> fungot: you tease.
18:58:05 <fungot> boily: i forgot the little lojban i know :( just asked for some " research". :p probably sells well.
18:58:24 <mrhmouse> fungot: is "research" a euphemism for something?
18:58:24 <fungot> mrhmouse: try ' cat /etc/ passwd" read)), a+4n b+3n c+2n d+n e
19:08:15 * boily fantasizes on finding a non-transitive loop in the wiki, where language A is more esoteric than B, which is more esoteric than C, and the latter being esotericer than A...
19:13:23 <boily> @tell Taneb the KJV/Markov mashup was mainstreamed by Boingboing → http://boingboing.net/2013/12/06/king-james-programming-markov.html
19:16:54 <nooodl> mrhmouse: re: stack-syntax esolangs etc.: golfscript
19:17:41 <nooodl> which is basically a forth clone with a bunch of handy FP-esque built-ins. like % is map and * is fold
19:18:27 <FireFly> but that doesn't have word defining, which I think mrhmouse asked for
19:20:10 <nooodl> it has word defining to the point where you can redefine the value of 0
19:21:28 <quintopia> mrhmouse: yes. there is. but unfortunately, there is not one called "Stacks on Stacks on Stacks" but there should be
19:22:24 <FireFly> Would that operate on a stack stack stack, akin to befunge's stack stack?
19:23:04 <quintopia> FireFly: I BET IT WOULD HAVE A STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK STACK ...
19:23:23 <boily> the Stack functor fixed point?
19:23:46 * boily grasps the air as his sanity flutters away “noooo! come back, precious sanity!”
19:28:45 <ion> Cannibalism http://i.imgur.com/9t19cZN.jpg
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19:46:00 <ion> :-D http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/210622/walmart-is-selling-prints-of-banksys-destroy-capitalism/
19:48:19 <kmc> "Graffiti artist Eddie Colla’s print, with the very ironic words “If you want to achieve greatness stop asking for permission,” is on the site and labeled as a Banksy piece, as is Thierry Guetta’s 2008 “Life is Beautiful” piece."
19:48:27 <kmc> who here has seen _Exit Through the Gift Shop_
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19:54:35 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> yeah, I like to write in the common subset of haskell, c, perl, python, ruby, and tcl
19:54:38 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> other people like to write in the common subset of c and c++
19:54:41 <shachaf> 11:54 <mauke> they're weird
19:55:16 <^v> `ReLcOmE ^v
19:55:19 <HackEgo> ^v: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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20:25:45 <shachaf> ion: Email didn't work either?
20:28:06 <ion> shachaf: Didn’t get around to emailing him yet. I thought i’d try on #ghc since he’s there and what i was going to talk to him about was GHC-related.
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20:48:11 <Bike> `unicode FEMALE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM DRAWN BY SENILE OLD SEX ED TEACHER
20:50:32 <mrhmouse> Bike: congratulations, people are now staring at me because I'm snickering for no observable reason.
20:51:39 <FireFly> mrhmouse: that's me when reading fungot responses
20:51:39 <fungot> FireFly: but it's all explained in the thread, only some days on random, so i would assume it works. i'm removing a feature no one knows even exists. would you like an extended abi
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20:52:04 <mrhmouse> fungot: what feature are you removing?
20:52:05 <fungot> mrhmouse: i've gone through all the quotes. there are a few intermediate level papers on readscheme... did anyone ever build one of those ruby guys, wrote a slight variant of, which is really much simpler just to never leave the repl" but that isn't much
20:52:57 <mrhmouse> FireFly: yeah, sometimes there's too much babble to be funny. That was why I /joined ruddy - to be slightly less random
20:52:57 <boily> fungot: don't touch my PDF, you nefarious quote reader you.
20:52:58 <fungot> boily: called lisp? heh. but you're talking about the meaning of
20:53:02 <ruddy> funny. egbert9e9, (mrhmouse is another random internet page
20:53:33 <Bike> `unicode FUNGOT EXPLAINING EXTENSIBLE SCHEME PARSING TO SOMEBODY EATING POULET
20:53:49 <FireFly> fungot's responses have a tendency to sometimes be hilariously inappropriate though, which ruddy's doesn't :(
20:53:49 <fungot> FireFly: where is your source?" lolcode is popular because vb is hard to write
20:53:52 <ruddy> that's me when reading FireFly responses
20:53:55 <shachaf> fungot: do you like monoids
20:53:56 <fungot> shachaf: hang on nerd joke? are there no scheme irc libs or whatnot
20:54:10 <shachaf> ruddy: do you like monoids?
20:54:11 <ruddy> do you like bugs?
20:54:20 <kmc> ruddy: do you like nerd jokes?
20:54:21 <ruddy> hang on nerd joke? are there no scheme irc libs or whatnot 871) <kmc> i don't even know anything about feather
20:54:24 <shachaf> i like bugs / i like bugs / i like bugs / i like bugs
20:54:28 <FireFly> shachaf: fungot saw through your question
20:54:29 <fungot> FireFly: then i fnord at my expense of being practical!" things?
20:54:32 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nsOKBgmOs
20:55:03 <mrhmouse> ruddy: at least give it a while before quoting other bots..
20:55:26 <mrhmouse> ruddy: at least fifteen minutes, please.
20:55:27 <ruddy> please. i pride myself on my low algorithmic randomness i've been here for fifteen seconds. don't be an ass.
20:55:32 <Bike> hey, that was a bike quote, not a kmc quote! i demand restitution
20:55:49 <FireFly> ruddy: that doesn't look random at all
20:55:50 <ruddy> especially the random i assumed it was some
20:55:58 <Bike> ruddy you monster
20:56:13 <mrhmouse> ruddy: a what? he's only a what?
20:56:24 <ruddy> a boring fungus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cliona_viridis
20:57:22 <ruddy> that's numberwang! that's irrelevant
20:57:42 <Bike> why are all of the bots here so terrible at taxonomy ;_;
20:57:44 <boily> the bots. they are very sentient.
20:58:06 <mrhmouse> Bike: because we're the ones teaching them, I suppose
20:58:10 <boily> Bike: they are demonstrating solidarity and brotherhood towards each other.
20:59:26 <FireFly> fungot: funges ought to be your territory
20:59:27 <fungot> FireFly: in lowercase i assume for unixy :p. but the windows world that does cr/ lf" char?
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21:02:44 <boily> fungot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetiporus_sulphureus
21:02:45 <fungot> boily: kotisivu.mtv3.fi/ quux if they don't mention the drivers or linux support or such?
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21:07:57 <kmc> shachaf: rust is losing the generic "do" sugar
21:09:56 <mrhmouse> kmc: link to the announcement?
21:11:34 <kmc> i don't have a link offhand
21:11:38 <kmc> it may have already happened, even
21:12:33 <kmc> the issue is that there are multiple kinds of closures, e.g. stack closures and uniquely-owned heap closures
21:13:15 <kmc> and we used to infer from a lambda which kind it is, but no longer (for some reason)
21:13:34 <kmc> so "do" (which is a form of lambda) will only create the uniquely-owned heap closures
21:14:00 <kmc> also those can be called once only, which means the body is allowed to move out of captured variables
21:15:55 <boily> rust: the language with out-of-body closure experience!
21:20:47 <shachaf> kmc: which sugar was that again
21:21:41 <kmc> do f(x,y) |z| { ... } ⇒ f(x, y, |z| { ... })
21:21:48 <kmc> where |z| { ... } is a lambda
21:22:12 <kmc> also if there are no arguments to f or no parameters in the lambda then "do" lets you leave off the list entirely
21:22:17 <kmc> e.g. do spawn { ... thread body ... }
21:22:29 <kmc> ⇒ spawn(|| { ... thread body ...})
21:24:47 <kmc> and i suppose it is
21:25:05 <kmc> but w/o the thing where 'return' in the body causes the enclosing function to return
21:25:10 <kmc> (instead it's just not allowed :/)
21:25:50 <kmc> there used to be a related sugar 'for' which would let you use 'break' and 'continue' and these things would make the closure return true or false
21:26:25 <kmc> so that a for-each function could implement the desired loop control
21:26:28 <kmc> that all got scrapped months ago
21:26:50 <kmc> now 'for' is a sugar for calling .next() repeatedly on an iterator object like any boring old language
21:27:31 <lambdabot> `T.for' (imported from Data.Traversable),
21:27:35 <lambdabot> Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
21:28:51 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f (t b)
21:29:20 <shachaf> kmc: ruby has two different kinds of lambda thingies, with two different behaviors for return
21:29:27 <shachaf> lambda { ... } and proc { ... }
21:29:45 <shachaf> i should make a ruby thing that uses continuations to implement the "return"
21:29:52 <shachaf> so that it works even when you return the proc/lambda
21:30:22 <shachaf> kmc: weren't they going to change it to return Just x/Nothing instead of True/False
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21:35:49 <shachaf> i guess i was unclear but you know what i mean
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21:54:26 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, that's mooz's befunge site, I think that link is dead.
21:54:26 <fungot> fizzie: this is unix without a nice gui would use native widgets. but i have done
21:54:56 <shachaf> this is unix without a nice gui
21:55:34 <shachaf> fungot: what's the best thing
21:55:34 <fungot> shachaf: for call/ cc call/ cc, and has been commented on extensively elsewhere... yes.... one is the lhs the other one
21:56:20 <fizzie> call/cc call/cc: the best thing.
21:56:38 <shachaf> ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))
21:56:43 <fizzie> (Also we had some of that "my balls" thing, I'm not entirely sober.)
21:56:44 <ion> (cc call/)
21:57:08 <fungot> shachaf: kaxul reads in xml, e.g. for port operations. linear-update operations may be destructive, but you can play with car and cdr
21:57:21 <ion> aww http://call.cc/
21:57:24 <fungot> shachaf: and i wouldn't say that. you prefer for/ let keywords and just put the function variable at the front
21:57:36 <fizzie> ion: It "may" be for sale.
21:58:01 <ion> Yeah, by the extortionists
21:59:21 <fizzie> "Welcome To The Domain CALL.CC This domain is under construction. Please check back at a later date for updates, or to get more information about the domain, you may email the registrant using the link below."
21:59:27 <fizzie> That's what was there in 2003/2004.
22:00:04 <fizzie> I had the vaguest notion that there actually was a Scheme site with that kind of address, but perhaps I'm just thinking of call-cc.org, the home of CHICKEN.
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22:29:27 <Taneb> Aaaah I think I've started a new Haskell Compiler Project
22:30:08 <Taneb> On the basis that we're at York
22:30:19 <Taneb> And there's already been a York Haskell Compiler
22:30:27 <Taneb> We're calling it the New York Haskell Compiler
22:30:35 <Taneb> int-e, fun and education, mainly
22:31:01 <int-e> the next one will be yayhc?
22:31:16 * ion forks yhc and calls it Fork Haskell Compiler
22:31:43 <Taneb> ion, you do not want to, the build system is a 10000 line python script for some bizarre reason
22:31:49 <Taneb> We're starting from scratch
22:32:13 <ion> Please tell me it’s 10k lines of generated code.
22:33:27 <int-e> d o e s t y p i n g q u a l i f y a s g e n e r a t i o n o f t e x t?
22:33:27 <Taneb> Development stopped when the one guy who was any good at Python left
22:35:02 <int-e> `run echo 'Semi-automatic text generation.' > wisdom/science
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22:38:22 <int-e> oh yuck, sconscript.
22:38:35 <ion> #haskell: “<South> Is anyone here really familiar with Pipes?” I wanted to say kmc.
22:38:36 <int-e> (I just remembered that I have seen that before.)
22:39:37 * kmc rolls eyes
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23:03:27 <shachaf> kmc: is the "kmc drugz" thing getting old
23:04:06 <oerjan> it was old before you were born
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23:10:51 <shachaf> oerjan: you were old before i was born :'(
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23:25:08 <kmc> shachaf: just a little
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23:29:51 <olsner> how old is oerjan compared to shachaf? or how young is shachaf?
23:29:55 <kmc> attending a talk on compiler-based software diversification, i.e. generating a different binary for every user so that it's hard to write an exploit which works for all of them
23:30:03 <zzo38> Do you understand this one yet?
23:30:21 <shachaf> kmc: that's like how some jits randomly insert nops and so on?
23:30:25 <kmc> which is a cool idea
23:30:30 <kmc> also a p. #esoteric idea
23:30:35 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know about that
23:31:13 <olsner> hmm, an esolang that ends up slightly different for every user, that's something
23:31:40 <zzo38> I would think randomly inserting NOPs might slow it down or make too large file, but rearranging basic blocks might be OK in some circumstances, and rearranging global variables, functions, and so on, can also work.
23:31:52 <shachaf> kmc: e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=595034
23:31:59 <shachaf> can't find a good reference but i read about it somewhere
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23:32:26 <shachaf> to make the "jit spraying" thing more difficult
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23:33:19 <kmc> ah, because a NOP will re-synchronize the instruction framing
23:33:26 <kmc> or enough NOPs will
23:35:14 <oerjan> zzo38: that link discussion mentioned the impact being negligible for nops about every 64 bytes
23:35:48 <kmc> which gives you, what, about 32 bytes worth of exploit code
23:35:54 <kmc> w/ small instructions only
23:35:59 <kmc> still might be enuf though
23:36:07 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 5h 12m 17s ago: I think I am turning into you. I feel like I'm going to write a web browser... somebody stop me! o_o
23:36:09 <shachaf> or https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677272
23:36:46 <kmc> hm, NaCl does something similar for a different reason
23:36:52 <kmc> no instruction can span a 32-byte boundary
23:37:07 <shachaf> that sounds more predictable
23:37:26 <kmc> and indirect jumps/calls must be preceded by a masking instruction which aligns to a 32-byte boundary
23:38:05 <kmc> but I don't think that helps (or intends to help) against using NaCl to infiltrate a payload which you enter using a separate control flow hijack vuln
23:39:05 <shachaf> but this seems similar to the thing your talk is about
23:41:01 <kmc> i wonder if people will eventually focus more and more on exploits which don't redirect control flow at all
23:41:04 <kmc> i saw a paper about those
23:41:05 <kmc> maybe from you
23:41:55 <olsner> it might be nice to just disable all exploits
23:45:58 <kmc> this one i think: http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/73104/usenix05data_attack.pdf
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23:51:17 <oerjan> <ion> I uploaded it to imgur. http://imgur.com/gallery/Zp71DUL <-- good work with the -8 points, also i think that meme which i've noticed at least once before is already old.
23:51:30 <Halite> I have an idea for a new programming language [seriously this time].
23:52:09 <Bike> better than that fake hilton tweet, i guess
23:52:11 <ion> Breaking news: meme seen to exist more than once
23:52:12 <oerjan> it is about how to program with irc join/quits
23:52:33 <Halite> A script could be a finite state machine
23:52:45 <oerjan> ion: some memes feel old the second time you see them, i think this may be one.
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23:53:19 <oerjan> or maybe it's just me who is old.
23:54:02 <Halite> youth think 50 is an old age. Elderly think 100 is an old age.
23:54:03 <oerjan> Halite: then you all are.
23:54:33 <kmc> the person giving the talk is http://www.michaelfranz.com/
23:55:12 <kmc> shachaf: another cool idea is, you do profile-directed optimization and you do less randomization of code within hot loops
23:55:55 <shachaf> hm i guess this is unlike the jit thing in that the attacker doesn't supply the code
23:55:59 <oerjan> <Halite> A script could be a finite state machine <-- that's also rather hard to call new.
23:56:15 <kmc> idea being that ROP exploits need gadgets from all over the code, so you can disrupt them by only messing with cold paths
23:57:12 <oerjan> add a tape, and you have a turing machine, one of the oldest computation models there are
23:58:31 <kmc> shachaf: imo rust should do this inside unsafe { ... } blocks