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00:00:34 <oerjan> or maybe i should ask an actual swede.
00:00:50 <oerjan> olsner: why you so idle
00:01:15 <Taneb> oerjan, why did I read "ask" as "smoke"?
00:01:39 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe you like smoking turnips, i dunno
00:01:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: why so _hideously_ idle
00:02:01 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, only for me
00:02:06 <quintopia> ThatOtherPerson: by driving faster
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00:02:55 <oerjan> i think i may be out of actual swedes. but in case not, is "Today, among other things, that song is considered somewhat the unofficial hymn of Sweden" about luciasången as preposterous as it sounds?
00:03:19 <oerjan> i could imagine it being true with s/the/an/
00:04:12 <oerjan> but then the aussies have "waltzing mathilda", so what do i know
00:05:48 * oerjan just edited it instead.
00:06:46 <quintopia> what's wrong with waltzing matilda?
00:07:36 <oerjan> it's just not in the usual style for a national anthem hth
00:10:16 <oerjan> https://www.google.no/search?q=luciat%C3%A5g&biw=1176&bih=613&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=q6GrUuy7OYS47QaX2oAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ hth
00:15:53 <douglass_> what's the clever trick for getting orecchiete not to stack?
00:16:25 <douglass_> I thought stirring a lot while they cooked would do it but it doesn't. Do I need to separate the noodles individually by hand before adding to water?
00:18:11 <Fiora> http://food52.com/hotline/16710-keep-orecchiette-from-sticking-together does this help?
00:20:01 <Bike> "Today's bug: If a prisoner happens to be on the toilet when his time in jail finishes, he will remain trapped on the toilet forever" game bug logs are great
00:21:36 <douglass_> No, I added them to water that was boiling hard, and I stirred frequently. The problem is that they are already stacked in the bag and the hot water makes them stick that way faster than stirring can break them up.
00:21:54 <douglass_> I think the solution is "buy shell noodles instead because they're just better."
00:25:06 <Fiora> shells are wonderful
00:25:20 <Fiora> I think shells and rigatoni are my favorite
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00:29:48 <douglass_> Shells cost more per pound at Safeway, though, and TJ's never seems to have them
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00:35:06 <oerjan> douglass_: wouldn't it be a good idea to unstack them _before_ dropping them in the water, then.
00:35:34 <oerjan> unless they're frozen or something.
00:35:54 <oerjan> oh you mentioned that option.
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00:37:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: term unknown, please rephrase
00:37:59 <Fiora> trader joe's has a lot of frozen pasta dishes that are kinda nice
00:38:14 <oerjan> possibly nobody, it was just the main reason i could think of for why you couldn't separate them before boiling
00:42:14 <douglass_> I consider the option of unstacking them individually by hand, rather than stirring them all at once, to take an unreasonable amount of time.
00:44:25 <oerjan> i'm imagining shaking them into a dry bowl and separating them by "stirring" there. might even work.
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00:45:20 <Fiora> does it help if you pour them in, like, before the water is boiling?
00:46:11 <oerjan> also, does the package have any tips.
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00:48:01 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> Hey, can someone help me understand Lazy K? <-- did you get any answer?
00:48:29 <lambdabot> ShelSilverstein says: Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Lazy Jane. She wants a drink of water so she waits and waits and waits and waits and waits for it to rain.
00:48:39 <HackEgo> 2013-12-14 00:02:07: <ThatOtherPerson> Ah, right
00:49:38 <oerjan> ok that's less than an hour ago
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00:49:48 <HackEgo> Sat Dec 14 00:49:47 UTC 2013
00:50:07 <oerjan> shachaf: it does the sane UTC thing
00:50:43 <shachaf> oerjan: p. sure mountain view time is the only sane time
00:51:19 <ThatOtherPerson> The thing that bugs me about the wiki page is it only seems to describe how it is different from Unlambda
00:51:23 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: right, real fast nora's hair salon III: shear disaster download is isomorphic to lazy k
00:51:40 <douglass_> oerjan: I will try that with the remaining package. There are no tips on the label.
00:52:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Yeah, I've been looking into Nora, and I thought perhaps it would be easier to learn by learning about Lazy K
00:52:26 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: well lazy k is ski calculus, which is like a subset of unlambda, except that it's also lazy in evaluation order.
00:52:54 <oerjan> in a sense, the lazy version is the more mathematically pure one.
00:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i think gould just thought of the language itself as something very obvious and so he only bothers describing the syntax and showing off lazier
00:54:19 <oerjan> the same abstraction elimination process for converting lambda calculus works for both. of course with lazy k you then get _lazy_ lambda calculus.
00:54:57 <oerjan> it _is_ obvious i think.
00:55:07 <oerjan> if you know haskell and lambda calculus :P
00:56:27 <oerjan> of course as someone who has written unlambda, i'm biased.
00:56:40 <ThatOtherPerson> I understand the general principles, but I don't really know how to program in it yet
00:56:56 <oerjan> do you know how to program unlambda
00:58:00 <oerjan> what you need is a good understanding of how to do things in lambda calculus, and then how to abstraction eliminate.
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00:58:34 <ThatOtherPerson> oerjan: hm, I have a fairly... basic idea of how to do things in Haskell
00:58:40 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: you might look at madore's unlambda page, it has many tips for how to program in that, which should at least approximately apply to lazy k.
00:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i learnt the lambda calculus perfectly well from the wp article
00:59:06 <Bike> presumably the point is more about evaluation order than types
01:00:01 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: also one thing about laziness is that it's the order of evaluation that is guaranteed to work if _any_ does, so if you write a program that works _strictly_, it will automatically work lazily. although possibly with a space leak :P
01:05:58 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: you're definitely going to need to understand how to use higher order functions.
01:07:36 <oerjan> and then you want to understand how to make data structures with them, e.g. simulating haskell's ADTs
01:08:19 <oerjan> and the matter of flow control, in particular how to do recursion with the self-application trick.
01:08:56 <Bike> adts you could just do as a tagged union where the union element is a tuple right
01:09:31 <oerjan> Bike: that's not the simplest way
01:09:40 <Bike> what's the simplest way.
01:09:54 <oerjan> let's say to implement data Bool = False | True
01:10:12 <Bike> oh, you do that
01:10:41 <oerjan> you implement an element of Bool as a function with _two_ arguments, one to use if it's False, one to use if it's True.
01:10:48 <Bike> so instead of a tag you just have it only called by case functions
01:11:13 <Bike> and have it pass the data if it exists to that function?
01:11:23 <Bike> right makes sense
01:11:32 <Bike> silly me, thinking of data as data
01:12:10 <Bike> the future is the past
01:12:26 <oerjan> False = \x y -> y, True = \x y -> x, and then if b then x else y becomes just b x y
01:12:49 <oerjan> (i sort of switched the order of False and True there to make the if the right order)
01:13:24 <oerjan> now if you instead have data Either a b = Left a | Right b
01:13:57 <oerjan> then Left x = \l r -> l x and Right y = \l r -> r y
01:14:35 <oerjan> and you add more arguments for constructors that have more arguments.
01:15:04 <oerjan> a tuple has just one constructor, so (x,y,z) = \f -> f x y z
01:15:28 <oerjan> and that's basically all you need to implement ADTs as functions.
01:19:12 <oerjan> to understand lazy K's IO format, you need (x,y) pairs + one more thing called church numerals.
01:20:25 <oerjan> a church numeral is a natural number encoded as a function applying another function that number of times. i.e. 1 = \f x -> f x, 2 = \f x -> f (f x), 3 = \f x -> f (f (f x)) etc.
01:21:58 <shachaf> imo consider scott encoding rather than church encoding
01:22:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i never remember the difference.
01:22:50 <oerjan> also i only mentioned church for the numerals, which are definitely what lazy k uses.
01:23:47 <oerjan> some but not all arithmetic is fairly easy with church numerals.
01:23:54 <oerjan> (subtraction is a pain.)
01:25:01 <shachaf> just like tail is a pain with church lists
01:25:33 <oerjan> > foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
01:25:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(GHC.Types.Int,
01:25:35 <lambdabot> with actual type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:25:45 <oerjan> hm something not quite right.
01:25:54 <oerjan> > foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) undefined $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
01:25:55 <lambdabot> (72,(101,(108,(108,(111,(44,(32,(119,(111,(114,(108,(100,(33,(256,(256,(256,...
01:26:21 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: that's like the first step for encoding "Hello, world!" into lazy k format.
01:27:16 <oerjan> it doesn't bother to use a proper list with a nil format, just inserts infinitely many 256 after the end.
01:29:05 <oerjan> (you'll find that particular encoding in my real fast nora implementation too.)
01:29:36 <oerjan> well, approximately, anyway.
01:39:18 <oerjan> i suppose that could work
01:40:00 <oerjan> although mainly because you can write something that ignores the difference between number >= 256
01:56:56 <oerjan> i sort of interpreted it as \f x -> fix f
01:58:17 <shachaf> imo (exists x. (x, x -> Maybe x))
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02:04:07 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> good unpentadactyl morning! <-- my condolences on losing a finger
02:11:27 <oerjan> @tell mrhmouse (Control.Arrow.>>>)
02:12:31 <lambdabot> Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
02:12:55 <oerjan> oh right it got moved and generalized
02:13:06 <kmc> :t foldr (\x y -> (ord x,var$show y)) undefined $ "Hello, world!" ++ repeat '\256'
02:13:15 <kmc> ohhhhhhhh trickysauce
02:13:26 <kmc> i was like "how did you construct an infinite recursive tuple type???"
02:13:39 <shachaf> infinite types are too good
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02:14:18 <kmc> > var "a very reasonable name for a variable, don't you think"
02:14:19 <lambdabot> a very reasonable name for a variable, don't you think
02:14:20 <shachaf> a cat, a cab, a bat, bacat!
02:14:48 <shachaf> > text "a very reasonable text, don't you think"
02:14:49 <lambdabot> a very reasonable text, don't you think
02:17:15 <pikhq> > text "An excellent text."
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:18:06 <lambdabot> with `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Expected type: Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr -> GHC.Base.String
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Base.String -> Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.Doc
02:18:56 <oerjan> on second thought, that shouldn't work in any shape or form.
02:22:27 <oerjan> @tell <Taneb> I had a dream that I has a secret esoteric lair <-- good, good, we may make an evil overlord of you yet
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02:33:28 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> normally distributed glazed eyes served over bouchées of surreal bread rolls. <-- are you attempting to create québécois/r'lyehan fusion cuisine
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02:44:44 <Bike> the language is like, aklo, or some shit like that.
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03:45:27 <Sgeo> I remember being so confused about over... why didn't anyone tell me that it was modify? (Or, maybe I'm thinking of a different over?)
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06:28:14 <Bike> aw man, google bought boston dynamics.
06:28:38 <Bike> all their robots are gonna be all corporate and soulless now
06:28:49 <kmc> i for one etc.
06:29:15 <Bike> "Executives at the Internet giant are circumspect about what exactly they plan to do with their robot collection."
06:30:00 <Bike> oh, they said they don't want to move into military contracting, at least. i guess
06:31:01 <kmc> military /contracting/
06:32:28 <kmc> leaving open the possibility of developing military robots for their own use
06:32:58 <Bike> oh. heh. yeah.
06:33:20 <Bike> i should research the legality of spider death robots
06:44:33 <prooftechnique> Legality irrelevant. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission
06:45:04 <Bike> it's also easier to ask things if you haven't been shot
06:45:12 <ion> New Amiga 68k port of Doom http://youtu.be/JpjVxuJBWak
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10:29:17 <fizzie> "Runtime Error (at 139:148): Access violation at address 7D2DA677 in module 'gdiplus.dll'. Read of address 00212C84." arrrr this wine be broken.
10:35:19 <fizzie> All 'w' and 'm' characters are also very broken-looking. (Other characters are fine.)
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10:54:23 <fizzie> "Internal error: Expression error 'Runtime Error (at 16:21): Invalid floating point operation.'"
10:54:28 <fizzie> It just keeps getting better.
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13:32:21 <Slereah> ehttps://bitbucket.org/FeministSoftwareFoundation/c-plus-equality
13:32:51 <Slereah> https://bitbucket.org/FeministSoftwareFoundation/c-plus-equality
13:35:17 <Slereah> "1 is inherently phallic and thus misogynistic."
13:35:17 <myname> someone should write a compiler
13:38:03 <Slereah> "Variables self-declaring as pointers are known as "otherkin". A pointer to an array is an "arraykin"."
13:38:15 <myname> Instead of "running" a program, which implies thin privilege and pressure to "work out", programs are "given birth".
13:39:13 <Slereah> I do wonder if you could actually make a language out of it
13:39:20 <Slereah> Or if it is too contradictory
13:39:58 <myname> - header files are known as headHer files, with extension .Xir
13:40:53 <myname> Slereah: interesting, fizzbuzz states that 1 should be success
13:41:08 <Slereah> Clearly that is misogynistic
13:42:18 <Slereah> "Curly brackets are not allowed, as they perpetuate our society's stereotype of the 'curly' women. Instead, Python-esque indentation is used."
13:42:27 <myname> - assignment constrains its lefthand side to an externally imposed presentation and orientation; replaced by accepts(), and lefthand side is free to refuse (NO MEANS NO!)
13:43:21 <Slereah> There are no bugs, only snowflakes.
13:43:56 <myname> "% now known as the 'cock and balls operator'"
13:45:08 <Slereah> I prefer intercal's rabbit operator
13:46:07 <myname> maybe we should make an entry in the esolang wiki
13:46:32 <Slereah> It is the simultaneous use of . and "
13:46:55 <Slereah> Apparently back in punchcard days you could punch two characters as one input
13:50:09 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure you couldn't with a punch-card?
13:50:29 <FireFly> but a line printer could backspace and print a second character on top of an already-printed one
13:51:19 <Slereah> I only vaguely remember what the justification of the rabbit was
13:52:22 <FireFly> Also fun fact, the reason the APL charset is as weird as it is, is mainly because most of the characters were composed in a similar manner by typing one character over another one
13:53:07 <FireFly> So vertical bar and delta gives you ⍋, e.g.
13:53:29 <Slereah> Did they even have keyboards back in APL days?
13:53:50 <Slereah> Character sets don't matter much if you program on punchcards I suppose
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13:55:37 <FireFly> They did; here's what the IBM 2741 looked like apparently: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/IBM_2741_printing_terminal_APL_keyboard.jpg
13:57:23 <int-e> I love the left margin indicator in the middle of the page ...
14:02:33 <FireFly> Oh, by "line printer" I think I meant "teletype"
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14:31:25 <mroman> Does english require to use 'a' in enumerations?
14:31:31 <mroman> a dog, a cat, a hound, a house
14:31:41 <mroman> I have a dog, cat, hound and a house?
14:31:49 <mroman> or I have a dog, a cat, a hound and a house?
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14:43:12 <mroman> I'd like a GTK-Callgirl, too, hunspell
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14:56:36 <Bike> "i have a dog, cat, hound, and house" sounds acceptable to me
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15:00:55 <Bike> with the a's it definitely works though
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15:50:16 <fizzie> Wine went from error messages to "sound stutters, whole computer hangs up, reboots after ten seconds or so"; I think I'll give up on it.
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15:56:08 <fizzie> Perhaps something has configured a software watchdog feature on.
15:56:52 <fizzie> Though /sys/class/watchdog is empty.
15:57:37 <mroman> Linux has software watchdogs that let you reboot the system?
15:57:48 <fizzie> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Linux_Kernel/Softdog_Driver
15:58:11 <fizzie> But I doubt it's enabled by default much anywhere.
15:59:40 <fizzie> Nothing much in the logs at the time of the reboot, except for a "kernel: [16305.769629] NVRM: Xid (0000:01:00): 61, 0092(1e64) 00000000 00000000" line. But that's a bit earlier, I think, and anyway quite frequent occurrence. (I'll blame the nvidia binary blob anyway, it's an easy target.)
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16:02:50 <mroman> if there's a global freeze a software watchdog is useless anyway
16:03:03 <ion> SteamOS comes with a LD_PRELOAD hack that prevents programs from changing the screen resolution, and with a compositor that scales fullscreen windows with a smaller size to the screen resolution. The LD_PRELOAD thing may be a bit of a kluge (and perhaps they’ll change that), but i approve.
16:03:39 <fizzie> mroman: It's kind of a best-effort thing.
16:05:31 <fizzie> 24 out of 75 items in my Steam library have Linux versions, which is quite a percentage, if still a bit disappointing.
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17:19:15 <FreeFull> ion: That's pretty interesting
17:19:27 <FreeFull> I wonder what the performance of that is
17:21:45 <mroman> It's common to use "we" in english papers apparentely?
17:22:04 <mroman> like "we invented some new method" and "we investigate stuff"
17:22:18 <mroman> "we propose a new method ...."
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17:23:38 <mroman> LinearInterpol: So, it's not common?
17:24:11 <LinearInterpol> if you're representing some form of group maybe it's common.
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17:24:37 <LinearInterpol> for example if I cannot deduce who "we" is by just taking into account the context of the sentence..
17:25:11 <LinearInterpol> now if you explicitly specify your context then yes, "we" is acceptable.
17:25:16 <mroman> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/200169/now-vldb.pdf <- that has "we"
17:25:44 <mroman> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/200047/cloudEdge.pdf <- also uses we
17:25:51 <LinearInterpol> because you're representing more than one person and I know that.
17:26:14 <LinearInterpol> it's why they made that apparent at the top of the document.
17:26:19 <mroman> Otherwise you'd use "I"?
17:26:52 <LinearInterpol> because "I" 'points' to the obvious context of the writer unless specified.
17:27:11 <mroman> I'm asking because in german papers you better not use either "we" or "I" at all
17:27:49 <mroman> You'd use passive voice nearly everywhere
17:27:59 <mroman> "A new method was developed" and stuff like that
17:28:01 <LinearInterpol> because you don't want to attach some sort of centered bias.
17:28:12 <mroman> but I've heard that passive voice is very uncommon in english anyway
17:28:28 <LinearInterpol> passive voice is common in english speakers with no knowledge on how they use their words.
17:28:28 <mroman> and some random papers I googled used "we" all over the place
17:28:54 <mroman> I have to translate my german abstract to english
17:29:08 <mroman> And I'm wondering whether I should use we or just stick to passive voice
17:29:25 <LinearInterpol> are you representing a group, and are talking about something that relates to your situation/accomplishments?
17:30:11 <mroman> We have done something.
17:30:30 <mroman> We designed a RISC CPU essentially
17:32:11 <LinearInterpol> designed to mirror some of the qualities of a certain famous MOS Tech. microprocessor.
17:32:12 <Slereah> i wonder how big an OISC CPU would be
17:32:36 <Slereah> I guess maybe a dozen gates or so?
17:32:37 <LinearInterpol> the die itself would probably take up a fraction of the space of most modern dies.
17:32:53 <LinearInterpol> well, it'd certainly be less than modern architectures..
17:33:04 <LinearInterpol> because you essentially are designing a control unit and ALU around one instruction.
17:33:21 <mroman> Yeah. But it's nothing serious
17:33:35 <mroman> it's like building a castle in a sandbox
17:34:05 <fizzie> It's common in single-author papers in our field, at least.
17:34:15 <fizzie> Or so I believe, anyway.
17:34:25 <LinearInterpol> you built a RISC architecture. you can now say you have the capability of designing processor architectures now.
17:34:47 <mroman> I meant what *we* did was nothing serious
17:35:13 <fizzie> It's called [[ The author's "we" ]] in Wikipedia's "Atypical uses of /we/" list.
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17:35:41 <Slereah> The best papers are HEP papers
17:35:50 <Slereah> When there's a thousand authors per paper
17:35:54 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: yeah, that's if you're taking your reader into the context with you.
17:36:39 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I've seen also uses that plainly don't include the reader.
17:38:10 <mroman> If I hadn't had the capability of designig processor architectures I couldn't possibly have designed one
17:38:36 <fizzie> I guess our papers so rarely have a single author.
17:40:40 <fizzie> "To mitigate this, we analyze the problem and present --" from abstract of Christensen, M.G. (only author), "Accurate Estimation of Low Fundamental Frequencies From Real-Valued Measurements", IEEE Transactions on Audio, Speech and Language Processing.
17:40:50 <fizzie> (First single-author paper I could find looking at its recent issues.)
17:40:51 <mroman> How's that a level up?
17:40:58 <mroman> I already knew what I was doing
17:41:18 <LinearInterpol> yes, but saying you knew what you were doing and actually demonstrating it are two different things.
17:41:48 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: that's one of those cases where you bring your reader into the context with you.
17:42:10 <fizzie> The reader is certainly not presenting anything.
17:42:42 <LinearInterpol> it's just like saying "We then can conclude from this observation yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah"
17:42:45 <ion> freefull: Probably not different at all.
17:43:15 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: Well, how about "we refer the interested reader to [20]" -- is the reader part of that too?
17:43:58 <LinearInterpol> that's a bad case of ambiguity: what does "we" really refer to then?
17:44:18 <fizzie> The author of the paper; I don't think it's very ambiguous at all.
17:44:46 <LinearInterpol> because in use of the author's "we", you must refer to both the reader and the author.
17:45:27 <LinearInterpol> so what does "we" refer to? if it refers to the author of the paper it should be "I"
17:45:57 <fizzie> I don't think you need to refer to the reader at all.
17:46:03 <fizzie> It's just a singular we.
17:46:05 <LinearInterpol> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We#The_author.27s_.22we.22
17:46:06 <mroman> LinearInterpol: Yeah, but it's not like I've learned much
17:46:14 <mroman> I learnt that gtk callbacks are type unsafe as hell
17:46:20 <mroman> but that's pretty much it
17:46:21 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: Note the word "often".
17:47:01 <LinearInterpol> that's improper usage if that context is to be interpreted that way.
17:47:44 <fizzie> It can't be improper if it's the accepted practice.
17:47:47 <LinearInterpol> perhaps the author is a member of some organization then.
17:48:30 <fizzie> Well, they ~always are, so if you *want* to interpret them as speaking on behalf of their affiliated organization...
17:49:35 <fizzie> "Some journals prefer using "we" rather than "I" as personal pronoun.[citation needed]" aw, I was hoping for a link.
17:49:54 <mroman> LinearInterpol: Also it's actually a whole computer platform we designed
17:49:59 <mroman> including graphics card, keyboard controller etc.
17:51:02 <mroman> It's not a hardware spec
17:51:07 <mroman> It's a spec of functionality
17:51:14 <mroman> which we implemented in a software emulator
17:52:48 <mroman> and we on the fly designed a programming language too
17:52:54 <LinearInterpol> Ah, lovely. I wish you the best of luck porting it to Verilog. :P
17:52:59 <mroman> and wrote a compiler that targets our architecture
17:53:07 <mroman> LinearInterpol: I'll probably use VHDL
17:53:11 <mroman> since I already know VHDL
17:54:19 <LinearInterpol> It's really good in professional settings though. The verbosity makes it clear.
17:54:40 <LinearInterpol> Unlike a certain programming language who's name starts with the letter J I will fail to recognize the existence of.
17:56:21 <mroman> Have you ever been forced to use J?
17:56:55 <mroman> Then you don't want to use Burlesque :)
17:56:55 <fizzie> mroman: I don't know if you'd really say J's name starts with J.
17:57:35 <mroman> It's a great language though
17:57:47 <CADD> i really enjoyed J
17:58:01 <int-e> fizzie: sure. It ends in J, too, and there's a J in the middle.
17:58:05 <CADD> not java. scre that
17:58:38 <CADD> mroman: do you have any public details i could look at on your processor?
17:58:38 <fizzie> int-e: Sure, but I'm not entirely certain it was the language that was being referred to, given the way it was put.
17:58:46 <CADD> LinearInterpol: indeed
17:59:08 <int-e> fizzie: I'm sure it was the one that starts with J and ends with ava.
17:59:18 <CADD> LinearInterpol: although I did find the mind bending factor of J very interesting. I would not mind being payed to write it.
17:59:50 <fizzie> int-e: Right; it just seems that mroman interpreted it differently, is all.
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18:01:12 <fizzie> (I mean, Burlesque is really much more J-like than Java-like, at least as far as surface syntax is concerned.)
18:01:13 <CADD> LinearInterpol: the coolest part i thought was that it was made by the same guy that invented APL.
18:01:15 -!- Chillectual has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
18:01:28 <CADD> LinearInterpol: wb
18:01:40 <CADD> sadly i have never played with it
18:02:07 <CADD> did you have the special keyboard and all?
18:03:13 <CADD> yeah, the furthest ive gone so far with J is writing an 8-neighbor cellular automata with user settable rules
18:03:39 <CADD> it was a fantastic feeling seeing that the entire algorithm was expressed in 3 rather short lines of code
18:03:58 <CADD> the rest (of about 150 lines) was all gui stuff, lol
18:04:36 <CADD> indeed, i wish more people would use them
18:05:02 <CADD> although a lot of features have been ported over to other languages
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18:05:30 <CADD> which as you know, is the usual tale great lang.
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18:05:53 <CADD> mroman: aww, no info?
18:06:00 -!- yiyus has joined.
18:06:22 <CADD> lol, that was interesting
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18:07:01 <CADD> [li]|Gaming: right back at you
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18:07:14 <CADD> mroman: on your proccessor/computer system
18:07:27 <CADD> anything open source?
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18:07:51 <mroman> http://bitbucket.org/mroman_/emulathor
18:07:59 <CADD> mroman: thanks!
18:08:16 <mroman> but again: It's not science or useful at all
18:08:57 <CADD> im just interested in absorbing as much as possible
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18:15:14 <mroman> and the compiler is an ugly mess
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18:17:14 <FreeFull> People need to write emulators in Rust
18:18:15 <CADD> mroman: lol, most code is :D
18:19:16 * CADD brain 'splodes.
18:19:29 <CADD> too many ambiguities in english
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18:19:55 <Slereah_> [19:18:49] <Slereah> http://www.osmosian.com/
18:19:55 <Slereah_> [19:18:54] <Slereah> I HATE THEM SO MUCH
18:20:33 <Slereah_> Really Plain English is basically the real version of that feminist language
18:20:55 <CADD> Slereah_: omg, i saw that shit..
18:20:56 <Slereah_> It is based on a Philosophy and it is awful
18:21:13 <Slereah_> I still have the Plain English compiler
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18:22:41 <int-e> *downloads the manifesto* what is that font? are they expecting me to read this?
18:23:06 <Slereah_> You have an exam on that manifesto in one hour
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18:23:12 <CADD> Slereah_: https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo is a perfect example
18:23:54 <mroman> I like the had had had sentence
18:24:06 <Slereah_> "We believe that the convoluted object-oriented approach — together with the byzantine "C" programming language and all of its derivatives — can be removed from common usage within the next ten years"
18:24:12 <mroman> James while Johns had had had had had had
18:24:21 <CADD> Slereah_: yes, with haskell :D
18:24:24 <Slereah_> This manifesto was written in 2006
18:24:35 <CADD> Slereah_: wow, yeah. im reading through it right now
18:25:29 <Slereah_> Also here is their sample program : http://pastebin.com/Ud8z8f7e
18:25:52 <Slereah_> You think hunting down a semicolon was bullshit?
18:26:33 <int-e> \or is not plain english
18:26:38 <CADD> Slereah_: ugh, yeah i just downloaded the sample.zip.. this looks almost like LOLCODE
18:26:42 <mroman> and there's 'the counter'
18:27:04 <mroman> I have to allocate memory myself?
18:27:10 <mroman> 'Allocate memory for the work'
18:27:21 <Slereah_> Because despite their loud vocalization about everything being in plain english
18:27:26 <mroman> If I have to allocate memory myself I might as well stick to C
18:27:29 <Slereah_> The self compiler is still full of assembly code
18:27:53 <CADD> Slereah_: yeah, this look like a really bad case of the cult of the begginner.
18:28:10 <CADD> interesting never the less
18:28:29 <CADD> just not what i would ever want to use
18:28:52 <Slereah_> Once in a while, I go back to this site
18:29:32 <Slereah_> Much more understandable than C!
18:29:37 <CADD> Slereah_: yeah, i just saw that. what does that do?
18:30:03 <CADD> i downloaded the zip, but no. ive had enough, lol
18:30:39 <CADD> actually, satisfy my morbid curiosity. ive got some time to waste
18:31:05 * CADD prepares for boiling blood.
18:31:22 <Slereah_> Well there it is : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/instructions.pdf
18:32:23 <int-e> "When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen"
18:32:43 <Slereah_> Oh yeah, the GUI is full fucking screen
18:33:02 <CADD> im debating if i should pull out wine and see how bad it looks
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18:33:57 <CADD> lol, this program is not powerfull enough to conquer xmonad. im glad it did not full screen on me
18:34:10 <CADD> im pretty sure its not going to work though, lol
18:34:54 <CADD> nope, just a black screen
18:35:01 <Slereah_> The full pack is here : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/cal-3037.rar
18:35:46 <Slereah_> Really I don't think the language is that bad
18:36:00 <Slereah_> If it was just some project to make like a language to teach children about computer programming
18:36:11 <Slereah_> But they are so fucking proud of themselves
18:37:23 <Slereah_> "I don't do nested IFs. Nested ifs are a sure sign of unclear thinking, and that is something that I will not countenance. If you think this cramps your style too much, read my code to see how it's done. Then think again."
18:37:54 <Slereah_> "I don't do EQUATIONS. I do a little infix math, and I support "calculated fields", but almost all the code you write will be strictly procedural in nature. As the Osmosians always say, "The universe is an algorithm, not a formula." Words you should take to heart. Especially if you're a math-head."
18:38:03 <int-e> To say it in plain english: bullshit.
18:38:35 <Slereah_> I kinda want to hire them and tell them I want to get a math program
18:38:49 <Slereah_> 10.000 x 10.000 matrix calculation type thing
18:38:58 <CADD> Slereah_: i would have to disagree. iirc i read an article about a high school teacher switching to fp langs and his students understanding it much easier.
18:39:14 <Slereah_> Well I didn't say it would be a good idea
18:39:19 <Slereah_> but it would be an okay project
18:39:41 <Slereah_> But the fact that they want to get rid of all other languages and think theirs is the one true language
18:39:46 <CADD> its good to test the limits of what a programming language is, but dont bullshit the PLT community.
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18:40:25 <int-e> Fortunately, this is the first time I've heard of them. I wish it will be the last.
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18:41:36 <Slereah_> About once a year I rediscover them and rant a bit
18:42:02 <int-e> well please stop doing that then
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18:43:28 <mroman> May I use this moment to convince everybody to use Burlesque. kthxbye
18:43:37 <CADD> Phantom_Hoover: lol
18:43:41 <mroman> it's the most creepiest language around
18:43:58 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/rwb2.pdf <- awesome to parse log files in it
18:44:47 <mroman> It's got a creepy name
18:44:49 <CADD> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque <- This?
18:45:08 <CADD> mroman: oh, i see what you did there XD
18:45:45 <Slereah_> You know what would be creepy?
18:45:57 <CADD> mroman: yeah, ive actually already seen burlesque. i like it. but im also one of those weirdoes that likes factor.
18:46:26 <Slereah_> Tͮ̎̄̏͗͑͑̈͛͌̾̓ͤ̐ͭ͗҉͕͙̣̬͖̟̤̳͍͈̞͔̠̻͞ͅḩ̡̝̺̪͓̩̹̰̹̩̺̿́ͩ̊̑͋͢ͅṵ͍̳̗̜͖͖͕̭̻̰͛̾̑̿̕͡s̻̙̫͚̣͕̙͚ͥ̽ͫ͒ͥ͂̋̚͘͜l͛͗̃̊̊̓̈́ͯ̄҉҉҉̬͈̤͉̟̯̟͞y̎ͮ̊̌̂̽̏ͤ̾ͧ͂ͯͪ̾̌̚͘͘҉̘̣͍̜͖̠̳̜͙̝̼̥̲́
18:47:55 <CADD> my favorate is haveing just the "fuck up the middle" checkbox selected. just enough embelleshment to be interesting, but not unreadable
18:48:21 <mroman> you just messed up my terminal
18:48:35 <Slereah_> Fortunately mIRC doesn't allow such foolishness
18:48:41 <Slereah_> Characters don't leave their lines!
18:48:52 <mroman> With unicode and putty
18:49:01 <CADD> irssi just doesnt render it properly.. i really should set up my fonts..
18:49:18 <mroman> you can pretty much do such trickery as injecting text so that I read it as if somebody else wrote it
18:49:29 <Slereah_> maybe I should implement Arithmetica
18:49:41 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
18:49:42 <CADD> lol, as opposed to mathematica?
18:55:28 <mroman> CADD: You saw it on esolangs.org?
18:55:33 <mroman> Or are you golfing on golf.shinh.org?
18:56:05 <nooodl> so is it called Αριθµητικών or Arithmetica
18:56:38 <Slereah_> But I call it Arithmetica for the barbarians reading it
18:56:50 <nooodl> "Arithmetikon" seems closer
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18:57:20 <Slereah_> Arithmetica is closer to latin phonology though
18:58:15 <mroman> nooodl: Why is gs2 still not ready ;)?
18:58:28 <nooodl> i should work on that!!
18:58:38 <CADD> mroman: yup, i saw it on esolangs. i havent golfed yet, but ill try burlesque if i ever do
19:00:29 <mroman> Slereah_: The osmosian compiler is not available for download?
19:01:20 <mroman> also I don't really get the point of programming in plain english
19:01:35 <mroman> programming languages are supposed to be "formal" and "expressive"
19:01:59 <Slereah_> mroman : The compiler used to be available, but they pulled it
19:02:03 <Slereah_> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/cal-3037.rar
19:04:07 <nooodl> implementing this stuff is easy but i don't wanna document it :(
19:04:47 <CADD> mroman: couldnt have said it better myself
19:05:16 <Slereah_> Well if you want to know the reason why they did it
19:05:40 <CADD> i like that you put the word in quotes
19:07:58 <Slereah_> I don't want to sound alarmist but i believe that language was created by Hitler's ghost
19:08:04 <CADD> i think it definitely does deserve being in quotes
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19:08:49 <CADD> wouldnt it be funny if the individual frequented #esoteric?
19:09:15 <Slereah_> It probably qualifies as an esoteric language
19:11:30 <Slereah_> https://web.archive.org/web/20131214191118/http://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
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19:16:11 <CADD> does it get any worse?
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19:16:43 <ais523> huh, that's an interesting line to see out of context when you join a channel
19:17:05 <CADD> oh there have been quite a few
19:17:28 <CADD> ais523: www.osmosian.com <- join the fun
19:18:40 <Slereah_> We were talking about ol' Plain English
19:18:44 <Slereah_> https://web.archive.org/web/20131214191118/http://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
19:21:50 <CADD> i dont get this guy's hardon for claude monet.
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19:25:46 <CADD> im guessing this guy sees himself as some programming ARTEEST
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19:31:09 <CADD> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VdZR3deNdI
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19:33:52 <Sgeo> Why does feathercoin exist? Except to give ais523 nightmares
19:34:06 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't have an objection to the word "feather"
19:35:38 <CADD> lol, well the block chain has been found to be fundamentally broken recently
19:36:48 <CADD> laymans article about the topic by one of the guys that wrote the paper with a link to the paper in the article --> http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/
19:40:13 <Sgeo> "under the best of circumstances, at least 2/3rds of the participating nodes have to be honest to protect against our attack. But achieving this 2/3 bound is going to be difficult in practice. We outline a practical fix to the protocol that is easy to deploy and will guard against the attack as long as 3/4ths of the miners are honest. - See more at: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/#sthash.cF1z946n.dpuf"
19:40:31 <Sgeo> Am I losing my mind, or is 3/4 > 2/3?
19:40:39 <Sgeo> Oh, I'm misreading it
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19:41:24 <CADD> Sgeo: yeah, that confused me for a second too
19:42:36 <mroman> x-1/x probably has lim->inf = 1
19:43:28 <CADD> mroman: agreed
19:44:25 <mroman> the derivation of both is 1
19:46:40 <kmc> "We're looking for people that want to sell Bitcoins on the Bittylicious platform"
19:47:04 <Sgeo> "Our proposed fix raises the threshold to 25% if universally adopted. And, while there may be other fixes, no fix can raise it above 33%. - See more at: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/#sthash.cF1z946n.dpuf"
19:47:11 <Sgeo> Much clearer than that other sentence
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19:54:01 <Sgeo> The comments are just... ugh
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20:00:57 <CADD> Sgeo: I tried to distill the information content of your posts but ended up with the empty set. Here's a gentle hint: if your arguments do not invoke math, they are not going to be persuasive, at least, not to technical people.
20:01:19 <kmc> arguments about what?
20:02:11 <CADD> kmc: i wont post the comment. its pretty long and vacuous. just search a snippet of what i just pasted and look at the comment above it.
20:02:44 <kmc> you're talking about this bitcoin stuff?
20:02:48 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:03:16 <CADD> kmc: mhm. about the link i posted a little while ago
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20:08:48 <CADD> Look, all you're doing is a syntactic match. You're finding words that sound the same in a random walk through concept space.
20:08:55 <CADD> Wow, this man is on a roll.
20:09:10 <CADD> I'm so stealing that line.
20:09:59 <kmc> word salad
20:11:00 <CADD> sure, but it accurately describes what the person being replied to was doing. as well as this is something i encounter a lot and the man put it so succinctly.
20:11:25 <int-e> Nice paper, though they do not show that there strategy is optimal (and thus, the actual required pool sizes may be smaller.)
20:12:48 <CADD> well, i dont think an proof of optimality is neccessary, just that an unfair advantage can be gained through the described process.
20:13:36 <int-e> True, except for the claimed security against pools of 25% size with their fix.
20:14:47 <CADD> you should tell him that then
20:14:55 <int-e> (I didn't mean to distract from the key insight, which is, essentially, that immediately publishing a found block is not necessarily the best possible strategy.)
20:15:33 <CADD> right right, very good point though
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20:38:33 <kmc> fungot: sup
20:38:33 <fungot> kmc: okay, that's fair enough.
20:38:48 <kmc> fungot: too much is never enough
20:38:48 <fungot> kmc: but i'll humor you with random comments
20:38:54 <kmc> fungot: for a nominal fee?
20:38:55 <fungot> kmc: that could work, but there seems to be the fbi field office, or sing sing, or something
20:39:08 <kmc> fungot's going up the river for a good long time
20:39:08 <fungot> kmc: from the eight language polyglot page: " 25 jan 2001 richard stallman the proper name is " fnord"
20:39:19 <kmc> fungot knows the True Name of RMS
20:48:20 <fizzie> That was scary relevant.
20:48:31 <fizzie> At least the initial part.
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20:50:52 * kmc pokes fungot
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21:13:29 <fizzie> Nng, Chromium has somehow stopped making "g" a working keyword for a Google search. If I switch the keyword to something else (like "gg"), it seems to work; but not when it's just "g".
21:14:20 <fizzie> And "g" works if Google is not set as the default search engine.
21:14:30 <fizzie> I wonder if I can somehow have no default search engine.
21:15:01 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be possible to delete the one set default.
21:20:48 <fizzie> I don't quite understand why it won't work, though.
21:21:32 <fizzie> It seems so very specific to "g"; if Google is set as the default search engine, "g" doesn't seem to work as a keyword for anything else; but other single letters (like "q") are no problem.
21:24:10 <fizzie> Well, I added a new search engine called "Gurgle", with the keyword "g" and a Google search URL, and set that as the default. That seems to work.
21:24:29 <fizzie> With the slight cosmetic issue that the bar now says "search Gurgle" instead of "search Google", but...
21:24:58 <fizzie> (Maybe I should've just switched to that duck thing?)
21:28:59 <madbr> trying to develop a language where each statement contains a bunch of parts that can be evaluated in any order
21:29:22 <madbr> where you could go
21:31:04 <kmc> that seems like a feature and not a bug fungot
21:31:07 <kmc> er, fizzie
21:31:35 <kmc> Two: whenever fungot's not responding, all the other characters should be asking "Where's fungot?"
21:31:37 <madbr> destVector.pushBack(v), v=srcVector[n], !map.has(v)
21:32:10 <fungot> fizzie: calculation of fnord fnord on. i want the old one is so that threads are a bitch
21:32:11 <madbr> this means "add all contents of srcVector that isn't in map into destVector"
21:32:19 <madbr> the compiler would compile it to
21:32:45 <kmc> fungot doesn't like me anymore? :(
21:32:45 <fungot> kmc: fnord annoying that way. and i never seen okoing before...
21:33:03 <fizzie> kmc: There's a limit of no more than four consecutive replies, which I'm sure you're aware of.
21:33:27 <kmc> well I am now
21:33:40 <fizzie> I'm sure that was covered on fungot 101.
21:33:43 <madbr> for(int n=0; n<srcVector.size(); n++) { v=srcVector[n]; if(!map.has(v)) destVector.pushBack(v); }
21:35:07 <madbr> the current tool I'm developping at work is a mountain of iterations on vectors, maps and json objects of various kinds
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21:35:25 <madbr> and the syntax for that kind of manipulation is just too verbose
21:35:38 <kmc> it sounds like logic programming
21:36:03 <madbr> yeah essentially I'm trying to see if I can borrow from logic programming to make code less verbose
21:36:22 <fungot> LinearInterpol: i'm about to go. with your ordinary font it's much less honest it's much easier to just register bsmnt_bot. that's the one
21:36:48 <fungot> LinearInterpol: there's some weird math thing about them comes from them being unary
21:36:51 <madbr> same thing happens in c++
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21:37:00 <madbr> std::vector is nice and I want to use it a lot
21:37:14 <madbr> but the resulting code is kinda wordy
21:37:54 <madbr> the usual attitude to that is something like "the IDE helps you, man up and type more"
21:38:19 <madbr> but even then the code turns into some sortof hard to read dense stuff
21:38:54 <madbr> I could split it into functions more and use more curly braces but it would not make the code any easier to read and any less complex
21:39:23 <madbr> the foreach() you see in python etc is a nice idea but I think it's kindof not enough
21:39:30 <madbr> and it doesn't save you enough typing
21:41:25 <madbr> and there's the functional idea of giving the vector a callback to what you want to do and have it loop
21:41:27 <kmc> god damn it why are there only three Crystal Castles albums
21:41:51 <madbr> but in usual programming languages (C++, java for me) that turns super hyper verbose and isn't something you want to ever do
21:42:19 <kmc> i need at least five more to be happy in life
21:42:38 <madbr> So I'm thinking that language development atm is optimizing the wrong thing
21:43:02 <kmc> thankfully not all languages are C++ or Java
21:43:08 <madbr> they should work on boring old loops and conditionals
21:43:31 <kmc> in Haskell or Python or C# (LINQ) you can do very concise high level traversals & manipulations on data like that
21:44:07 <madbr> python has syntactic whitespace.... which controversial
21:44:20 <kmc> and if there's some pattern not already supported you can define and use it rather than duplicating code
21:44:20 <madbr> but personally I'm under the impression that it's a good idea :D
21:44:55 <kmc> actually C++ supports a lot of trickery too thanks to operator overloading & templates, but it can get pretty unmanageable
21:45:01 <kmc> other languages have nicer ways to do those things
21:46:40 <madbr> usually I try to write my code to use the least possible curly braces
21:46:49 <madbr> so I have a lot of early exits
21:47:07 <madbr> and I've started to use continue and break in loops as well
21:47:47 <madbr> and I try to make loop or conditional statements single line so I don't have to use braces
21:48:33 <kmc> madbr: I think syntactic whitespace is a good idea as long as it's just sugar for an equivalent whitespace-insensitive form
21:48:45 <kmc> so Haskell passes that test but Python doesn't
21:48:53 <kmc> but I still use Python a lot because, meh, no language is perfect
21:49:00 <Taneb> I don't like Python but not for that reason
21:49:09 <Taneb> I... don't really like any language any more
21:49:22 <madbr> I think you have to pick your fights
21:49:33 <kmc> the worst consequence in Python is that lambda is so restricted, also that it's hard to code Python at a REPL
21:49:44 <Taneb> I guess I don't really know many languages
21:49:51 <Taneb> Really, I only know Haskell, Python, and C
21:49:56 <Taneb> Very much in that order, too
21:50:32 <madbr> if you're writing sound rendering code, you can't have dynamic typing or garbage collection
21:50:33 <kmc> Haskell is the language you know best?
21:50:40 <kmc> interesting
21:50:51 <kmc> madbr: do you know much about Rust?
21:50:51 <madbr> so like 99% of sound code is C++
21:51:06 <madbr> I know it's a new interesting thing but I haven't ever used it
21:51:12 <Taneb> I'll be learning Java next term, but I kind of want to get ahead
21:51:20 <Taneb> So the next I'll learn is Java probably
21:51:21 <kmc> it's aiming squarely at the niche of systems code which can't afford garbage collection etc.
21:51:30 <Taneb> I've been meaning to learn loooooaaaaads of languages
21:51:34 <kmc> it's a credible C++ replacement which is exciting because there are so few of those
21:52:11 <Taneb> Rust, Scheme, Common Lisp, Elm, C++, Go, Agda, JavaScript, etc, etc, etc
21:52:30 <kmc> it has two exciting researchy ideas (move/ownership semantics, and region pointers) and the rest is just like let's design a systems language for 2010s instead of 1970, so you get real module system, real macros, pattern matching, etc.
21:52:34 <madbr> taneb : anything you want to program in particular?
21:52:39 <kmc> goooood shit
21:53:10 <Taneb> I want to know enough so that when I think of something I'll be able to say "this language is a good fit" and just write
21:53:25 <madbr> I've also been meaning to design a language for game sprite logic scripting, and there's nothing that fits that
21:53:38 <Taneb> I was writing a Haskell library that did that
21:53:40 <madbr> lua is popular but lua isn't really designed for that
21:53:41 <Taneb> Never finished it, though
21:54:12 <kmc> Taneb: Java is so depressing, it's just incomplete
21:54:30 <madbr> lua is a nice dynamic language in the same family as javascript or python... and I'm not convinced that's what games need
21:54:30 <kmc> and the designers clearly thought of themselves as smarter than the users
21:54:44 <madbr> java is... well, it's usable clearly
21:54:50 <madbr> but it makes you dead inside
21:54:50 <kmc> Taneb: C# has the same basic concepts as Java but actually provides the tools you need to be effective with it
21:55:12 <Taneb> kmc, unfortunately, I can't choose what language I'll use for at least the first year
21:55:30 <Taneb> 2nd year of my course there's a module which is basically "all of them"
21:55:42 <madbr> taneb: you should figure out what kind of company you want to work in
21:55:47 <kmc> I like it when languages are designed around the idea that I do know what I'm doing, which is very different from being designed around the idea that I'll never make mistakes
21:55:48 <madbr> what kind of stuff you want to code
21:56:47 <Taneb> I'd kind of like to be in web backends
21:56:52 <Taneb> For some bizarre reason
21:56:56 <madbr> my interests are sound processing, game stuff so for me it's all about C++
21:56:59 <Taneb> I'd probably hate it after a month, but anyway
21:57:44 <madbr> and even some assembly if I can justify it (not very often unfortunately :D)
21:57:59 <kmc> i love writing assembly
22:00:20 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, the game of life is only from 1970?
22:00:29 <shachaf> i thought it was from 1930 or something
22:00:32 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm only from 1994
22:01:05 <Taneb> My university is probably younger than some people in this channel
22:01:47 <madbr> Taneb : which language do they get you started on?
22:02:20 <madbr> when I did CS at uni (only a year) it was C++ but they were going to switch to python like next year
22:02:45 <Taneb> I know some unis start with Java and others start with Scala
22:03:01 <madbr> yeah some start with java
22:03:16 <madbr> which... makes sense considering the market but is still kinda evil :D
22:03:30 <madbr> scala is functional no?
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22:03:44 <Taneb> madbr, it's mixed paradigm, functional/OO
22:04:02 <madbr> sounds like a very academic approach
22:04:10 <kmc> all languages are "mixed paradigm"
22:04:19 <kmc> paradigms describe code styles not languages
22:04:24 <fizzie> Wonder how many still start with Scheme.
22:04:30 <kmc> at best you can say that a given language suggests or discourages a particular style
22:04:41 <Taneb> madbr, this was Oxford, and they switch to Haskell later
22:04:59 <int-e> I have a colleague using Scala, and he keeps confusing me when he talks about the number of arguments a function takes (he doesn't count the implicit object from the OO paradigm part)
22:08:53 <kmc> i like that 'self' is an explicit argument in Python, and that bound object methods are just partial application closures over 'self'
22:09:20 <kmc> in Rust you write a 'self' argument as well but it's a keyword and has special syntax which is confusingly different from other args :/
22:09:43 <madbr> What's wrong with the implicit argument?
22:10:52 <kmc> it's a vague aesthetic preference only
22:11:13 <kmc> in Rust you need to write it because methods can take 'self' by reference or by value or other ways
22:12:37 <kmc> if you have «let x = ...; x.f();» and f takes self by value, then x is moved into the method call and using the variable x after that call is statically forbidden
22:12:41 <kmc> which is a neat capability
22:12:47 <VipSS> thx god its sunday
22:13:04 <kmc> @localtime VipSS
22:13:05 <lambdabot> Local time for VipSS is 2013-12-14 23:13:04 +0000
22:13:29 <pikhq_> I don't think it's Sunday there.
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22:16:18 <VipSS> i think it is so !!! wake up or sleep ! sundayyyy :(
22:16:35 <kmc> `relcome VipSS
22:16:39 <HackEgo> VipSS: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:23:08 <VipSS> fizzie: do you agree ?
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22:31:41 <fungot> FireFly: wonder if i can find about it
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22:33:22 <VipSS> hi phantom , thx, d you ?
22:35:47 <VipSS> hey can we find a drink ?! i am ;) cheerrzz
22:36:48 <ais523> VipSS: do you understand what this channel's about?
22:38:06 <ais523> it's about programming languages, specifically ones that are designed to be weird rather than useful
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22:39:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's supposed to be about that, though
22:39:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought our rule atm was that people have to be at least interested in being ontopic on occasion
22:39:44 <ais523> like, otherwise it'd just be #defocus
22:40:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes, but primarily it serves as a centring point for all the other things we talk about
22:41:37 <VipSS> do you mean hacking and virus programs ! and you can talk about solutions !
22:42:24 <ais523> there's some overlap, but it's mostly about admiring things like ASCII-only code
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22:46:28 <VipSS> i will tell my opinion about, after ... you know
22:47:53 <VipSS> joking , it is none of my interest , sorry guys
22:48:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is it only about esoteric programming languages, not about esoteric code in other programming languages?
22:49:11 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not really a stretch to make it about esoprograming generally
22:49:45 <ais523> actually this is (or used to be) a good channel for me to ask when I have bizarre programming problems in general
22:49:58 <ais523> because it tends to solve the problem you claim to have rather than the problem it thinks you have
22:50:04 <ais523> and sometimes I have some very weird problems
22:50:07 <b_jonas> ais523: oh sure, but I'm asking what epcifically counts as on topic
22:50:42 <ais523> I remember going to #ocaml with a question that boiled down to "I have a sandbox that works like X for my marking script, now I need to convert a char to a string, but because of my sandbox I can't use the standard library, any ideas?"
22:50:55 <ais523> btw, the solution is that strings are mutable in OCaml
22:51:03 <ais523> so you start with an arbitrary one-character string
22:51:10 <ais523> then concatenate it to the null string to create a fresh string
22:51:15 <ais523> and then mutate the fresh string
22:51:24 <Taneb> What was the #ocaml solution?
22:51:39 <ais523> Taneb: we were working on it together, that solution was what we came up with collectively
22:51:53 <ais523> someone else mentioned using the standard library via the FFI rather than directly
22:51:59 <ais523> I didn't pay much attention to that
22:52:05 <ais523> but one of the students escaped the sandbox using it
22:52:12 <ais523> so perhaps I should have done
22:52:39 <ais523> but because I'm paranoid, there were two sandboxes
22:52:45 <ais523> and they didn't escape the outside one, so all was well
22:53:16 <b_jonas> at what level where the two sandboxes? the ocaml compiler and the operating system?
22:54:11 <ais523> one was at the parser level, it rejected uses of unauthorized libraries via refusing to parse them
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22:54:19 <ais523> the other was Linux's syscall-based sandbox
22:54:37 <ais523> that turns off all syscalls but reads and writes to files that were already opened in advance, exits, and returning from signal handlers
22:55:39 <ais523> the sysadmins actually set up a VM for that, because it wasn't compiled into the kernel on the standard Linux build at our organization
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22:56:09 <b_jonas> so in html, I can use <input type="image" ismap src="someurl" /> to have a server-side image map that submits a form, right?
22:56:56 <ais523> I can believe that something like that's possible
22:56:59 <ais523> but don't know the syntax
22:57:42 <b_jonas> it's clearly possible but the question is whether it's possible without javascript
22:58:06 <b_jonas> the html standard seems to say it's possilbe, but I'll have to test how much it works in browsers
23:01:57 <ais523> I wonder if it's on http://caniuse.com
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23:03:03 <b_jonas> ais523: nice webpage, I haven't heared of that
23:06:58 <b_jonas> let me check what that says about extra svg blending modes like http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
23:08:14 <b_jonas> why do those have only the more expensive multiply and screen modes instead of supporting the faster add and subtract as well though? more expensive when alpha is involved that is.
23:08:46 <b_jonas> nope, http://caniuse.com/ doesn't mentino these
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23:53:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat | Set the controls for the heart of the sun | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:54:03 <nooodl> > [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
23:54:04 <lambdabot> [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus...
23:55:12 <oerjan> (hint: compare to previous topic)
23:55:53 <ion> su015315 -: NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH
23:55:55 <ion> su015315 +: [Just (), Nothing] >>= repeat
23:58:26 <ais523> since when was colon lambdabot syntax?
23:58:42 <oerjan> only for :t and :k, though
23:59:05 <ais523> so trying to understand that work
23:59:33 <ais523> I mentally expand it into "do {x <- [Just (), Nothing]; repeat x}", is that the correct resugaring?
23:59:43 <nooodl> easier to just think of it as
23:59:50 <nooodl> concatMap repeat [Just (), Nothing]