< 1387065609 225869 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric := repeat (Just ()) ++ repeat Nothing < 1387065635 440269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, ofc < 1387065658 651388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat's being interpreted as a List monad action < 1387065667 557346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [] >>= repeat < 1387065668 715735 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [] < 1387065669 221525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be empty list < 1387065670 696676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1387065675 612556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I think I understand this < 1387065688 669838 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [repeat x | x <- [Just (), Nothing]] < 1387065689 753537 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Ju... < 1387065710 137728 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: not quite < 1387065723 595992 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. concat that < 1387065729 713720 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [y | x <- [Just (), Nothing], y <- repeat x] < 1387065730 811454 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Just (),Jus... < 1387065743 64082 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1387065743 956338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did Haskell get rid of monad comprehensions? < 1387065748 867017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they were just more complex than do-notation? < 1387065790 918546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it was all part of that "making types simpler for newbies" stuff in the transition from haskell 1.4 to haskell 98 < 1387065796 563318 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they're not very useful and make things unnecessarily complicated < 1387065801 110174 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. map used to be fmap < 1387065807 920123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fmap < 1387065809 5615 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1387065820 297267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and List is a functor < 1387065820 795812 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, unnecessarily generalized < 1387065821 565527 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's an extension to reenable them now, though. < 1387065822 948018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, that works < 1387065868 308368 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like how fmap looks usually :( it's weird < 1387065880 38804 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i often catch myself writing <$> but that's so "perl" < 1387065888 898769 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1387065926 329543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering how <$> parses in Perl < 1387065946 435812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess as "<" and "$>" < 1387065965 412834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where $> is, umm, effective UID?) < 1387065981 756599 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print $> < 1387065985 778060 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :5000 < 1387065993 989172 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print 2 <$> < 1387065995 580483 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1387066024 794116 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`interp perl print "i think this should work, unless it broke" < 1387066026 407902 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec: 4: ibin/perl: not found < 1387066035 697598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think. < 1387066037 336000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print <$> < 1387066038 634688 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Final $ should be \$ or $name at -e line 1, within string \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "print <$>" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. < 1387066048 55661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, that makes a /lot/ of sense < 1387066066 669536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't interpolate $> into a literal read from filehandle for the same reason you can't interpolate $" into a string < 1387066070 173193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print "$"" < 1387066071 774700 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :String found where operator expected at -e line 1, at end of line \ (Missing semicolon on previous line?) \ Final $ should be \$ or $name at -e line 1, within string \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "print "$"" \ Can't find string terminator '"' anywhere before EOF at -e line 1. < 1387066074 421125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1387066076 302085 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1387066078 285949 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, map used to be fmap? < 1387066079 144833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering how that would parse < 1387066087 218887 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is $" < 1387066088 625807 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :And monad comprehensions were actually a standard thing? < 1387066098 978633 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print $" < 1387066100 507797 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1387066103 170668 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Haskell Committee: I liked their earlier work better < 1387066185 839974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think $" is to do with interpolating an array into a string < 1387066207 211220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e my @x = qw/1 2 3/; local $" = '-'; print "@x"; < 1387066208 840154 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-2-3 < 1387066210 269273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1387066216 566536 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-} {- doubt it works but worth a try -} < 1387066216 755267 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Parse failed: Parse error: EOF < 1387066279 15241 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-}; test = [x | x <- Just "test"] < 1387066279 931955 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : .L.hs:150:18: < 1387066280 120721 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[t0]' with actual type `Maybe [Char]' < 1387066280 120890 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the return type of a call of `Just' < 1387066280 120986 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the expression: Just "test" < 1387066280 121079 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : In a stmt of a list comprehension: x <- Just "test" < 1387066352 250991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it has to disable language extensions for security anyhow. < 1387067985 464996 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :constant < 1387069204 500149 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387070070 235787 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1387070392 626242 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O < 1387070394 801898 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :​о < 1387070407 598637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie With the slight cosmetic issue that the bar now says "search Gurgle" instead of "search Google", but... <-- try with cyrillic o (о) maybe? < 1387070407 807512 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1387070420 380709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON < 1387070421 896620 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ο < 1387070425 527755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good o too < 1387070545 176906 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-213-163.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387071156 100450 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387071252 168333 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-213-163.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1387071426 876596 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net NICK :Bike < 1387071878 740158 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387071891 99684 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1387072297 768331 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9974-PAXN-6252 Why does DirectX install with every game? […] the only way to distribute them is to run the installer, that's also the only supported method from Microsoft to check that the correct version installed. Trying to manually check for the correct versions is extremely complicated […] In addition, the dependencies and required checks may < 1387072299 732267 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :change in each new version of the D3DX runtime. The code to check correctly and repair broken installs all exists in the installer and running it is a guarantee that the correct binaries will exist when you run the game < 1387072364 786207 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : whoa, whoa, whoa, the game of life is only from 1970? <-- how old did you think conway was, anyway? < 1387072420 415081 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net NICK :Bike < 1387072437 318671 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how old conway is. he has done a lot of things. < 1387072438 978389 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he alive? < 1387072448 219255 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-212-50-133-32.psoas.suomi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387072452 481369 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1387072462 61802 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good for him. < 1387072490 969319 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, an erdos number of one. of course he's done a lot of shit then < 1387072563 167065 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE < 1387072564 853248 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ő < 1387072578 121727 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure there are _some_ people with an erdős number of one who only did that one paper with erdős. < 1387072585 658298 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1387072610 214929 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :conway is not one of them. < 1387072656 354380 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cőnway < 1387072681 354671 :Sorella!~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387072693 856225 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was about to ask for a list of everyone with an erdos number of one but then remembered the entire point is that he cowrote a shitfuck of papers < 1387072718 556213 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :511, apparently < 1387072721 2541 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's a list over at the erdős number project site < 1387072792 399876 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, some neat stats here < 1387072796 68909 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :«The five people with more than 200 coauthors are Paul Erdös (of course) with 509 (although the MR data actually show only 504, missing some coauthors of very minor works or works before 1940, when MR was started), FRANK HARARY (Erdös number 1) with 268, Yuri Alekseevich Mitropolskii (Erdös number 3) with 244, NOGA ALON (Erdös number 1) with 227, and Hari M. Srivastava (Erdös number 2) with 244.» < 1387072808 294906 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think conway is special for doing _both_ very deep and very popular math < 1387072814 231360 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have never heard of the others actually < 1387072817 58331 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes it's great < 1387072839 345985 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always thought of conway as that guy who did Life and Doomsday and then i found out, oh, no, he's really a trillion times smarter than me < 1387072912 915784 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" a person who has collaborated but does not find herself in the Erdös component of C has on the average collaborated with only one or two people" < 1387072949 108737 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387072949 297510 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Client Quit < 1387072972 529597 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird to think about the average erdos number increasing over time even though it's super obvious < 1387073037 42406 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's technically occasionally decreasing too < 1387073087 478499 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, i wonder what the data would look like for academia in general < 1387073188 363322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it go up whenever anyone is born, and down the rest of the time? < 1387073248 26222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you only counting people with a non-infinite value? < 1387073258 819814 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-infinite, i suppose < 1387073275 169734 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might be overestimating the effect of time given that the 'maximum' number is 13 according to the enp < 1387073332 313454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each individual person's goes down over time < 1387073335 558076 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that conway was born on doomsday
< 1387073337 816328 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1387073346 733122 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i want to know the erdos number of edward gibbon. < 1387073369 299958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… I almost certainly have an Erdős number, but it'll be hard to determine it automatically because I have such a common name < 1387073406 227106 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: try your collaborators unless they're too many? < 1387073415 808079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, probably the best option < 1387073418 511821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have two < 1387073432 809585 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :enp also notes that collaboration has gone up over time so the farther back in time i go the more unconnected components there will be, probably < 1387073498 953185 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still amused by the fact i can look up an ethologist on academictree and trace his lineage back to paul of tarsus D < 1387073501 967041 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:D < 1387073511 378459 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it goes up if someone dies who has lower than average, and down in the opposite case < 1387073524 682716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can go down whenever a paper is published < 1387073530 219061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1387073538 522562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and up when someone new joins the field < 1387073557 228907 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see, darwin collaborated with captain fitzroy, now who did fitzroy collaborate with, < 1387073558 165382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess people who die will tend to have a below-average number due to being older than the average researcher on average < 1387073561 55593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus having produced more papers < 1387073574 517849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not counting infinites, so someone joining the field can still go either way. < 1387073617 866536 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as the average is larger than 1+minimum < 1387073633 32478 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i want biology metrics help < 1387073710 308202 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like are things different since mathematical discovery is generally different from bug discovery < 1387073889 364751 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-212-50-133-32.psoas.suomi.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1387073965 213839 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whut'cha discussin' in here, esolang. < 1387073978 838403 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :erdos numbers < 1387074091 505993 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh. < 1387074093 992153 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :erdos numbers.. < 1387074136 486715 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to wonder what mine is. < 1387074154 328892 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's infinity. nice&tidy < 1387074178 740941 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :countable or uncountable < 1387074210 524719 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of a nonsensical question i think? < 1387074265 415294 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah. < 1387074404 701677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :countable, clearly < 1387074418 222293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arguably 14 < 1387074423 828947 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1387074439 246355 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :LinearInterpol: http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html < 1387074599 734199 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm i tried your name and it claims to find several but the selection menu is buggy, perhaps it's because it's too large. < 1387074618 201992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: try Dan Ghica, Satnam Singh (although the latter name may still be ambiguous) < 1387074620 208787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then add one < 1387074656 437919 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387074861 925202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :4+1 = 5 for the first, none for the second < 1387074921 581219 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of just S. or S. + another initial, though < 1387075080 189848 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1387075131 18330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think the menu wasn't actually buggy i was just confused by it not opening a new page directly on clicking the item < 1387075237 802264 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, unless you've collaborated with either John R. Blake or Albert John Petkay, neither option is you < 1387075362 314059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oklofok *MWAHAHA* i now know your middle name! < 1387075362 550993 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1387075476 889755 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my erdos number is 5?! < 1387075481 203506 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :haah. < 1387075510 998059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oklofok unless mathscinet is confusing you with someone else < 1387075511 248305 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1387075553 98131 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cue him using "oklopol" exclusively for the next 3 years. < 1387075748 762464 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i'm finding further evidence that the initial is correct. < 1387075826 249843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka his university homepage.) < 1387075949 100850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1387075960 537780 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric : countable or uncountable < 1387075960 726867 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric : kind of a nonsensical question i think? < 1387075960 727026 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric : nah. < 1387075971 473060 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1387075975 198341 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it'd be an ordinal right < 1387075998 786430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but that only implies ais523's 14 < 1387076005 798107 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cardinal. < 1387076021 452183 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ordinal. < 1387076024 238760 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc. < 1387076038 688911 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1387076039 667364 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1387076041 795988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :all cardinals are ordinals unless you're dictatorially opposed to free choice < 1387076047 738130 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1387076056 533622 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cardinals are indexed by ordinals. < 1387076090 129716 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: all cardinals are ordinals < 1387076097 737244 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :choice just affects whether every set has a size < 1387076132 750467 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no you can also use foundation instead < 1387076162 14502 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do something like "a cardinal is the set of all minimal rank sets of that size" < 1387076239 974353 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess if you have neither, then i don't know how to choose a suitable "witness" for a given cardinality. < 1387076276 722324 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a unique one, that is. < 1387076378 826274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm does foundation imply every set is smaller than a beth? < 1387076422 921952 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would. < 1387076622 585641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In ZF, for any cardinals κ and μ, there is an ordinal α such that:" < 1387076623 897252 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :\kappa \le \beth_{\alpha}(\mu). < 1387076644 853109 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-" +" < 1387076659 501263 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i take to mean yes < 1387076660 67309 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just thinking that 'infinity' in the context of erdos numbers isn't very setty anyway < 1387076665 45268 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387076670 800401 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: indeed < 1387076684 37849 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i /guess/ you could take it as not reached by incrementing which is like the smallest infinity < 1387076713 935781 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like "maximal element of order", used when taking minimum of empty set. < 1387076721 341054 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i kind of want to see the mathematical collaboration graph < 1387076737 155008 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing says it's small worldy, but are there like, bottlenecks between different fields, say < 1387078437 772727 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1387078523 179689 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 QUIT :Quit: Ik ga weg < 1387078829 282007 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1387079401 675275 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whose stupid idea was it to save note period values in a .MOD file but then convert them to note numbers upon loading? Better would be to play the note periods actually stored instead, but that isn't how it is done. < 1387079443 148893 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : it's a storied format :D < 1387079457 877837 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s3m and later formats don't have that mistake < 1387079564 207974 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes, they store the note numbers directly; I still think it would make sense to use the stored note periods to play the notes rather than converting between them, although this makes arpeggio effect difficult (although storing the arpeggio as individual notes instead would solve this too) < 1387079604 74873 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then how do you transpose a sample? < 1387079617 26896 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :go through all of the periods using that sample and change them? < 1387079639 738458 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you'd still need to turn them into notes to show them in the editor < 1387079740 21669 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you would transpose a sample in that way, if you need to deal with the existing file, I suppose < 1387079774 417406 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't intend to read them to show in the editor anyways; I intend to use a compiler to produce the .MOD or whatever which is then played back using OpenMPT or MegaZeux or whatever other software would play them < 1387079809 858577 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now you know why notes are stored that way < 1387079838 311423 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MODs/s3ms/etc are also the project file you edit < 1387079852 388480 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not some kind of stripped/compiled output < 1387079898 746846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can load them in various editors, although maybe you do want to produce them with a compiler instead, which would be more useful to do things a bit differently < 1387079947 560036 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :format is bad for doing thing is was not made for < 1387079984 644100 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ppl who produced music with a compiler went for some other formats < 1387080024 684934 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However many programs expect to use .MOD or .S3M formats for music < 1387080035 975641 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like register write lists for the target sound chip (like the gym format or at least one of the adlib log formats) < 1387080048 137434 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: yes, because there are lots of good sounding MODs and S3Ms < 1387080071 906159 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are lots of good sounding MODs and S3Ms because there are good editors for making them :D < 1387080115 655982 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :drinking gløgge < 1387080120 986416 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that legal < 1387080131 778196 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ain't no law in the water < 1387080154 879608 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: *-e < 1387080166 542943 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ain't no law in the watr < 1387080169 131803 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, my host mis-spelled it then < 1387080181 16785 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia agrees with you < 1387080192 846913 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is the danish spelling) < 1387080194 960312 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know of other sound formats, such as .VGM which stores register writes for many sound chips (even more than one at once, and many of them can be doubled), but still I was asking because of programs that expect to use MOD/S3M format, which is why I wanted to write a compiler to create such files < 1387080242 326742 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: u want gløgg? < 1387080242 554759 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: not lots, but they don't exist < 1387080267 375673 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: good, i was briefly wondering if it were the danes who somehow added an e. < 1387080287 371510 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might do such silly things < 1387080315 98975 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :danees < 1387080471 372217 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the swedes, if being silly, would add an a instead.) < 1387080473 145731 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo : kindof the way it happened is that they were hardware periods at first < 1387080492 345989 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : but then later on someone wrote... I think it was protracker < 1387080502 14355 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets you finetune the samples < 1387080541 969311 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's gøød < 1387080548 456465 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid having to reupdate all the periods in the song when you change the finetune in a sample, notes are parsed in that bizarre way < 1387080558 846666 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gløgg is good < 1387080750 551621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is getting drøgged with gløgg < 1387080776 460971 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: OK, though < 1387080785 291743 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i won't deny it < 1387080788 739742 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly just drønk < 1387080794 545657 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote dronk < 1387080796 508384 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :724) aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u (corruption of "aim heckler") < 1387080823 866623 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now dipping ginger cookies in the gløgg < 1387080826 640381 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And which programs support FM instruments in S3M anyways? How many files use that anyways? < 1387080842 864567 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(norwegian ø is not too far from english u in that position) < 1387080860 372723 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : I think modplug tracker actually will play the FM channels < 1387080896 533047 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : irl the reason why nobody uses FM channels is that they are out of sync < 1387080899 393864 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :frequency modulation...? < 1387080905 338123 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the original tracker) < 1387080913 173045 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Looking in the samples menu I don't see anything about FM, though < 1387080938 475566 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the sample channels are mixed into a buffer which is played after some time < 1387080948 525989 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fm channels play instantaneously < 1387080977 522937 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so s3ms are either all FM (I've seen only 2 of those!) or all samples < 1387080984 526859 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(every other s3m!) < 1387081068 95820 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other formats for FM anyways < 1387081128 513663 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are like 20 different formats for opl2 < 1387081146 922704 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :VGM is one of the formats that supports OPL2 and even OPL3 and OPLL < 1387081163 49932 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And you can use all of them in the same file too if you want to) < 1387081299 867321 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in practice s3ms are like MODs but better < 1387081321 828161 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wants http://imgur.com/a/LpuE8 < 1387081671 370549 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nothing plays the fm instruments because why < 1387082270 389918 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: maybe it was a different conway, who knows < 1387083004 804439 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf < 1387083012 54466 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc < 1387083139 484458 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there's another that did/does complex function theory iirc < 1387083192 545396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the fact that the cantor set is called that is kind of silly < 1387083203 423598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Conway < 1387083220 24009 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why silly < 1387083236 463314 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, cantor is responsible for quite a lot of sets < 1387083248 928848 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most mathematicians are < 1387083254 455396 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the cantor set is The Coolest of them. < 1387083289 86445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: cooler than a raccoon? < 1387083293 944038 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1387083299 65175 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did cantor make a racoon set < 1387083312 976088 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :slight clarification, it seems he wrote a _book_ about complex functions, but actual research in functional analysis. < 1387083320 514552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but there was a raccoon here next to me a few minutes ago < 1387083325 554065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :v. cautious raccoon < 1387083325 935468 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that happen < 1387083343 492942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the raccoon? < 1387083343 734943 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.chrisabraham.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racoon-pope-Sean-Tejaratchi.png < 1387083365 188227 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool there's people arguing that circuits are fundamentally different from programs because fpgas aren't real or something < 1387083374 60861 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice hat < 1387083412 742829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am currently in san francisco but going back south soon < 1387083460 333254 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask santa claus for an fpga < 1387083470 144658 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how's san francisco < 1387083477 952960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of cold < 1387083481 186250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm outside < 1387083484 83129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hence the raccoon) < 1387083974 792185 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :douglass_ and I went to a pet store today kind of by accident < 1387083979 473132 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we managed not to buy any cats < 1387083980 763124 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or raccoons < 1387084043 696594 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have raccooons in pet shops? < 1387084053 56497 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1387084082 650654 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the weird things about Tirana, Albania is that there are about five pet shops on every block < 1387084102 606098 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are these .S3M formats and so on so confusingly designed? < 1387084126 571631 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :historical materialism, zzo < 1387084168 393543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: imo your house needs a cat < 1387084174 624594 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo cat cafe < 1387084197 311669 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo : because it's just how some dude arranged stuff in a real mode dos program :o < 1387084247 175916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :keepin' it real mode < 1387084292 588247 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like s3m file offsets are real mode segments :D < 1387084326 132836 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not talking about those kind of things actually < 1387084374 785593 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that just mean they're in units of 16 bytes? < 1387084395 130025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: imo pointless cat cafe < 1387084407 804659 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes < 1387084413 984543 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe n-category cafe should open a physical frnachise < 1387084429 335102 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :topless pointology < 1387084453 771307 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But rather I mean the way channel mapping works, and how some effects are ignored on tick 0, and so on < 1387084641 733731 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is that because it takes one tick to set up the effect? < 1387084654 712063 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't know why. < 1387084659 924313 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :♫ < 1387084732 561196 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey zzo38 what do you think of i2s < 1387084741 130010 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1387084745 430786 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is < 1387084767 942705 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a serial format for transmitting music between integrated circuits < 1387085791 309059 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo : s3m channel mapping was confusing because the tracker mapped differently on soundblaster than on gravis ultra sound :o < 1387086113 503920 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and editing the channel map in st3 would move around the channels in some bizarre way < 1387086342 615621 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you just map channels 0-15, aka left1, right1, left2, right2, left3, right3, etc... < 1387086417 992538 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and override that default panning because that kind of hard-left/hard-right panning sounds kinda stupid < 1387086752 354451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is stupid like that too < 1387087774 416812 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense on a 386 with a sb pro when trying to save every last cycle but still < 1387087824 635707 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem to contain various stupid things which might cause problems to write a compiler into such formats; what is best way to write such a compiler in a way that would work in best way? < 1387087849 412418 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are your notes quantized in time? < 1387087872 330890 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie do they arrive exactly on 16ths, 8ths, beats etc < 1387087921 5780 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually they would be, but they might not be, due to some things < 1387087939 681132 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are not, you have to use the delay effect < 1387087955 772723 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SD1, SD2, SD3 etc) < 1387088004 560423 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively you could play around with the playback speed (effect A - change speed) but that has other issues < 1387088024 193652 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly that your slides don't end up being quite the same) < 1387088079 141937 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main problem is that you can only have 1 effect per row < 1387088083 198077 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :per chanel < 1387088152 805027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1387088154 333398 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you need a pitch slide that can't happen at the same time as a note delay < 1387088309 283400 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you end up fine because most effects are only applied on either note start (sample offset, glissando, note delay...) or later on the note (vibrato, volume slides, pitch slide down...) < 1387088462 494180 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some stuff like spc converters set the speed super high (like A02) to sorta solve some of these issues, but then you end up with other issues anyways (mostly that slides end up rather strange) < 1387088611 815899 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes there are those kind of issues too, I thought of < 1387089232 912598 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to write a MML compiler into one or more of these music formats < 1387089367 549491 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1387089417 163161 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently it is difficult to use MML with such software that expects music in .MOD or .S3M format, since no such program to compile it is exist < 1387089475 877226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things suggest that topoi are good should i learn about them y/n < 1387089742 137534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Are you aware of existing such softwares though? < 1387090068 400222 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I've been thinking about natrual-language-like programming languages such as Inform 7 and, arguably, COBOL. I wonder if they provide any advantages in expression to the programmer (i.e., better ability to program in such a language) based on the programmer being able to use UG (Universal Grammar), or whether the syntactic simalarities to natrual language are really only superficial, and so provide only an a priori familiarity wi < 1387090072 816224 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's "topoi" < 1387090103 396607 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Your message isn't finished, but I think they aren't advantageous. < 1387090112 764071 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth : I think we don't know enough about irl languages < 1387090118 747879 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also UG is silly. < 1387090130 559225 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't even apply. < 1387090133 971813 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hello. < 1387090135 125977 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of language processing irl is statistic < 1387090149 174885 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my name is bike. < 1387090161 784055 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: topoi seem to be something something grothendieck < 1387090223 613820 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Explicitly, implicitly, or to answer my question? < 1387090249 270001 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, what google translate does it a whole bunch of stats < 1387090263 794186 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to figure out what's the most likely translation of a group of words < 1387090284 720324 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some theories that humans work in similar ways. i personally don't buy this but some real linguists do. < 1387090302 774676 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :chomsky is kind of out of sorts nowadays. < 1387090305 384082 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Hello; and even if one doesn't take a strong Chomskyan view (I only do for the sake of discussion), you could argue that L1 gives a learning advantage to L2, and I wonder if this applies if L2 is a natrualistic programming language. < 1387090330 165531 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible. < 1387090350 601073 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think such programming languages provide disadvantages to learning them and programming in them and expression, although they may provide advantages to understand the program more easily, once it is already written. < 1387090353 555700 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about language acquisition, though, and i'm reasonably sure that good research on programming language acquisition does not exist. < 1387090362 92012 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a lot of made up thoughts. < 1387090439 686294 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :An idea I had is if you are using such natural-language programming, have the program include various annotations and other symbols, and underlying codes in other programming languages that can be specified using escapes, and have it reformat them for printout. In fact I wanted to do this for Magic: the Gathering cards, too. < 1387090440 916991 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen reasonably convinicing arguments that language processing by humans is probablilistic (such as by Florian Jaeger); it is certainly context-dependant. < 1387090460 856564 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Research on programming language acquisition would be interesting. < 1387090474 823364 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: And I don't suspect there is much. < 1387090524 561570 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i don't think what you're talking about is particularly dependent on the underlying mechanism, i mean. it could be true in both a chomskyian and a norvig...ian world < 1387090535 768701 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you think such language provide disadvantages to learning because they are natrualistic? And what properties of natrual language makes this so? < 1387090559 42229 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just pretty skeptical of constructed languages though. seen too many dumbasses thinking they have unlocked the key of thought < 1387090565 913564 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I agree, I was just framing it in terms of UG for convenience. < 1387090579 310202 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: The Ithkuil crowd and so on? < 1387090618 466515 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"esigned to express deeper levels of human cognition briefly yet overtly and clearly, particularly with regard to human categorization" looks like it < 1387090633 108559 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I would argue that NL is unsuitable as a programming paradigm primarily due to the fact that ambiguity is often desirable in NL, but not for code. < 1387090637 421530 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Nearly all of the properties, I suppose. The programming language still has limitations and things that are unclear when you try to read it as a natural-language rather than as the program, so you will write everything wrong because it "looks right" to you... < 1387090649 478114 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and that too. < 1387090654 54654 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ambiguity can be desirable in programming < 1387090673 840829 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike : when? < 1387090681 545646 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Indeed. I've had similar experiences interacting with NL parses, e.g., in IF (interactive fiction). < 1387090695 845253 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: But compilers/interpreters struggle with it, surely? < 1387090699 327910 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, in "higher-level" languages like C most of the point is targeting < 1387090707 895248 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same C program can "mean" different things < 1387090732 421404 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Are you talking about reusable code? < 1387090747 484944 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Yes I don't like or use Inform 7 at all, and yes even in IF games the entry can sometimes be a bit confusing but not nearly as much. < 1387090749 450852 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just the results of compilation or interpretation. < 1387090792 56980 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you write "a += 4" you don't particularly care if that's implemented as an addition or as four increments or as nothing because "a" was optimized out, much of the time < 1387090823 668937 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Maybe the same code may 'mean' different things in different contexts (if I understand you), but this is actually a case of reusability, as the meaning to the computer is not context-dependent, even though the meaning to the programmer or user may be. < 1387090830 799780 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it's all x86, arm or some kind of risc < 1387090838 187017 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't vary that much < 1387090867 420042 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and when i say "ambiguity can be desirable in programming" you can't reasonably interpret that as "buy me a soda" :p < 1387090882 175227 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Ambiguity is the reverse of that, what you're describing seems more akin to synonymy to me. < 1387090893 244298 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cross language synonymy < 1387090894 346186 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1387090898 746323 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Not always, actually < 1387090900 63777 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also undefined behavior. < 1387090940 791245 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you know if I7 has seen much favour in the IF community by the way? I haven't kept up with such things for years. < 1387090968 762633 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep < 1387090970 133306 :madbr!boulam@69-165-212-148.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Quit: Rouringu de hajikunda! < 1387090996 956867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: It seems to be popular although I do not recommend it < 1387091052 924404 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Your argument above, "... so you will write everything wrong because it "looks right" to you," essentially means that your L1 will cause interference problems for the programming L2. Do you think that is a valid formalisation? < 1387091078 490775 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: I am not sure what you mean by "L1" and "L2". < 1387091085 92624 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I though as much. I suspect it's popular with the 'writers' who want to make IF but don't have (much) programming experience. < 1387091118 300064 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sorry, language acquisition terminology. L1 = the language you speak; L2 = the language you are learning. < 1387091124 839982 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in natural language acquisition studies, L1 is the first language you learn (the native language) and L2 are others. < 1387091144 356306 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK < 1387091379 54347 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Re the synonymy, what you are describing is multiple constructs that have the same meaning/result, but what I was meaning by ambiguity was one construct which has multiple meanings/results, the choice between which is not trivial. < 1387091419 399439 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: You were saying that just the former is desirable in programming, right? < 1387091437 617787 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm thinking of the C source as the "one construct" and multiple possible compilations as "multiple meanings/results". < 1387091518 856611 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Ah. I was referring to ambiguity in terms of what a piece of code does, not how it does it. < 1387091530 15967 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I'd simply call that abstraction, incedentally. < 1387091542 775751 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: But you have a valid point that that is desirable. < 1387091598 438022 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about polymorphism? < 1387091678 124138 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but I think that has a different technical meaning. < 1387091721 406350 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or were you meaning it in its technical sense an an example of desirable ambiguity? < 1387091736 15114 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter, yes < 1387091817 105568 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be true, yes. < 1387091826 375498 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good example, in fact. < 1387091862 929043 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about, more fundamentally, names < 1387091881 82217 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\x -> x + x) [4,23] < 1387091881 415150 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, how does polymorphism map to NL ambiguity? < 1387091882 158632 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [8,46] < 1387091942 366895 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe like "I ran to the store" versus "the horse run past the barn fell" versus "is your refrigerator running?" < 1387091955 269730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: I guess it's in the way that in a natural language, you can understand a sentence without understanding what it's about < 1387091980 777872 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case 'run' being the 'polymorphic operator'. < 1387091983 45364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if a sentence contains a person's name and you don't recognise it < 1387091991 147555 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Yes, lexical ambiguiy, treating an operatior as equivalent to a lexeme. < 1387091992 302210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can still parse and understand the rest of the sentence < 1387092035 735402 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1387092150 844892 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know if I'd call that ambiguity. But I'm not sure what I'd call it, since it sits above the syntax-semantics interface. < 1387092184 726773 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In the example of not recognising a name. < 1387092212 144760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: well, it works like programming language polymorphism for me < 1387092226 329139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a programming language, a polymorphic function can operate on data without knowing anything about its type < 1387092252 990359 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what if gløgg : gløgge :: dog : doge < 1387092271 288995 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Treating polymorphic/overloaded operators as ambiguous, they are always disambiguated linguistically (not extra-linguistically), right? < 1387092342 331753 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I understad that a polymophic operator must know about type, but its operation is type-dependent. I could be wrong, though. < 1387092375 580277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t map < 1387092376 539519 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1387092381 979808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice and polymorphic < 1387092386 483697 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And in your example, which operator/lexeme is polymorphic/polysemous? < 1387092393 463057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :map doesn't need to know anything about a or b, just about functions and lists < 1387092406 421284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: the entire sentence is polymorphic with respect to the name < 1387092407 854946 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_lAFDbnMLA#t=40s -- "what did the doge do?" < 1387092421 295786 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the doge say < 1387092442 303767 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok there are like 100 youtube videos with that name, surprise < 1387092480 238873 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, you're talking about generics, right? I was thinking about overloaded operators. < 1387092496 724800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1387092504 532410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator overloading's like the opposite of polymorphism, though < 1387092511 36521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an overloaded operator does different things with different arguments < 1387092519 691519 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are generics really ambiguous, though? < 1387092535 187233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not < 1387092544 405271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, in my line of work, polymorphism tends to cause a lot of troubles < 1387092552 668219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't create a circuit to implement a program without knowing what types it works on < 1387092569 2428 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming we are defining ambiguity as (non-trivial) context dependance in meaning/function, or something like that. < 1387092814 77563 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.112.7.205 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1387092887 134292 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, thinking about the syntax of NL-like programming languages again, if L1 causes negative transfer (interferance) then we would expect it to also have the potential to cause positive transfer (learning advantages). I wonder if this is borne out for NL-like languages. < 1387092914 187483 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :More importantly, I wonder if anyone's studied this. < 1387093133 456508 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably some managerial type research on cobol since it was a conscious factor in its design and all. < 1387093250 175652 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good point. < 1387093294 403330 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think advantages are possible when trying to *read* the program, perhaps. < 1387093343 117367 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: For someone familiar with the language, or only for someone unfamiliar with it? < 1387093377 481537 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Being, myself, not familiar enough with a NL-like language to answer that. < 1387093418 866355 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I agree it is a possibility, but if such advantages exist, why don't they apply to writing too? < 1387093427 623538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: For someone who is somewhat familiar with it, but not quite, I mean. < 1387093443 280439 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yep. < 1387093492 888411 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: There's probably an interaction between receptive/expressive use and positive/negative interference. < 1387093519 63138 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But I'm not familiar enough with the acquisition literature to know if that is the case for NL. < 1387093673 379410 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that either. < 1387093789 864105 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I read more of _Stories of Your Life and Others_ < 1387093792 274680 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good stuff < 1387093796 711345 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm on the last story now < 1387093801 511268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was even in that book < 1387093814 924775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1387093821 111646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i remember < 1387093827 558736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the last story the one you already read < 1387093888 535431 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incedentally, what NL-like programming languages exist? Inform 7, COBOL and derivatives, and AppleScript come to mind. < 1387093903 988485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perligata, if you want an esolang < 1387093922 874564 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: I was thinking of a kind of "hybrid" system where the input looks like natural language kind of, with various extra marks too, and then when printed out, the marks mean different things and would print out like a natural language, with the correct bold and italics formatting and symbols and that stuff too. < 1387093935 816582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl itself was also intentionally designed on natural language principles < 1387093941 156067 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: I am not so familiar with COBOL but I could try to look up a bit < 1387093945 14820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably more natural-language like than the other languages you mention < 1387093951 693712 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this copy has an extra story I guess? "The Lifecycle of Software Objects" < 1387093952 338765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just doesn't /look/ like one < 1387093963 499203 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That sounds confusing. < 1387093966 671207 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Really? < 1387093975 438802 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, wall was a linguist, right. < 1387093982 217596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Larry Wall, who invented Perl, was a linguist (as in, natural linguist) < 1387093986 96391 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think COBOL is OK actually from what I can see < 1387093989 175587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and applied the same principles < 1387094004 350520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why Perl has an ambiguous grammar, and the parser sometimes has to guess, for instance < 1387094005 973112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1387094007 590247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :have no read < 1387094011 501682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :not < 1387094014 467241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it good < 1387094020 422041 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have written one COBOL program https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 < 1387094028 40405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it was published in 2010 < 1387094028 229657 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i don't know I didn't read it yet!! < 1387094035 544689 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your face was published in 2010 < 1387094038 816637 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: It sounds confusing a bit, but... do you play Magic: the Gathering cards? It would help to understand my ideas about this thing I am mentioning < 1387094039 921495 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Surely it's the linguists who would first realise the pitfalls of NL-likeness? And that does explain why PERL is good at text processing and things that linguists actually want to do with a computer. < 1387094072 561054 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, snobol was also designed for text processing and linguists and is pretty much nothing like natural language at all < 1387094072 750022 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: then why does Perl have such poor support for syntax trees compared to, say Lisp? < 1387094083 774202 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I played Magic years ago, but remember it a bit, except for all the new cards, obviously. < 1387094104 999283 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: well obviously it was a deferred question to be answered after you read it!! < 1387094105 792048 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: still a good program after all these years < 1387094109 848122 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1387094114 383220 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That's a good question? < 1387094118 404081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you should see Perl 6's support for syntax trees < 1387094126 377379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's some of the heftiest I've ever seen in a language < 1387094130 51931 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Minus the question mark, that is. < 1387094132 881470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it's making its way into Perl 5 libraries, too < 1387094138 729954 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl seems like "hey awk and sed and shell are all useful, let's make a language that does all that" < 1387094143 904372 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nothing more principled than that < 1387094150 484604 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl *is* still a really good awk/sed/shell replacement < 1387094151 119250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard perl gets scoping right < 1387094153 215483 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: That is good enough, as long as you have seen how many newer cards (past Alpha or something) are often seeming to use a common syntax so they are worded in very similar ways. < 1387094158 497123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than, say, python or ruby < 1387094171 23917 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe i should learn it < 1387094174 546549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl just lets you do what you like in terms of scope < 1387094180 185156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has lexical scope and dynamic scope < 1387094187 156867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the ability to inject things into other scopes < 1387094188 993556 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :snobol gets scoping right. it has no scoping. learn snobol < 1387094192 23688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all under user control < 1387094193 219861 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL may be at approx. the correct "compromise" between programming and natural language, for its application, it seems like; especially from kmc's program it looks like that < 1387094200 508878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and two different sorts of global < 1387094201 344180 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sort of, but some examples (pictures of cards?) would be nice. < 1387094202 257797 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks kmc. < 1387094203 953278 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_____> < 1387094214 687522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mauke was being convincing about maybe i should learn perl < 1387094218 262038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`seen mauke ever < 1387094237 697484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the very globalliest globals have names starting with a dollar followed by a control character, you normally type them as ${^Example} but you could use a literal control-E and omit the braces if you really wanted to) < 1387094244 927552 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but it's only "natural language" in that you have to write several long keywords instead of a curly brace < 1387094246 86730 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i don't think he was trying to convince anyone but maybe i'll do it anyway < 1387094247 704323 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-09-03 07:36:50: when things would be ambiguous otherwise < 1387094250 731344 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that an improvement on anything < 1387094254 605033 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned a little bit of perl. so many little symbols to know. so hard to read code. < 1387094277 236423 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :much symbols < 1387094281 168959 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :very punctuation < 1387094286 361122 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want a language based on machina carnis < 1387094287 276964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Perl tends to have good mnemonics for the weird punctuation combinations < 1387094287 465777 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1387094296 852685 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or there's that English module < 1387094299 879130 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just gives them good names < 1387094310 559893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I actually prefer the short names < 1387094315 833985 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may ask what the fuck, to which i respond, what your fuck < 1387094316 23051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ is basically just a pronoun < 1387094328 633269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good English name for it would be close to $it < 1387094333 376089 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about $hit < 1387094347 635205 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1387094357 763379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this explains why @_ is used for procedure argument < 1387094363 43217 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Well, things are easily enough to understand if you know some things about programming, even if not knowing the programming language; and yes the way that it is only "natural language" in the way you specified, is what I mean by a good way I think so. For example I can easily see what all the divisions mean, and could easily guess what "WITH NO ADVANCING" means. < 1387094365 968568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its meaning is not too far from "them", and the @ indicates a plural < 1387094400 15097 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387094402 121789 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :intriguing new research suggests i am a dumbass < 1387094442 284808 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perl is starting to look more NLy than I thought. < 1387094450 48697 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ made sense to me. cuz i used it to make @rrays < 1387094450 544838 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: You can look up pictures (or even just text) of cards pretty easily, but I can even just type some card texts here too. < 1387094467 942525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one good example is slicing arrays < 1387094486 57074 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Give me some cards to look up, or type here, your preference. < 1387094486 295827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have an array, say @a, then if I take one element from it, I get $a[2], and if I take two, I get @a[2,3], for instance < 1387094491 297483 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Or message me if they're long. < 1387094510 202381 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes it's true, 'WITH NO ADVANCING' is more clear than e.g. a trailing comma in Python 2 < 1387094511 80864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sigil at the start reflects whether I'm producing a single or plural quantity < 1387094511 384265 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The card "Recuperate" says: Choose one--You gain 6 life; or prevent the next 6 damage that would be dealt to target creater this turn. The card "Drifting Meadow" has three abilities; the first is: Drifting Meadow comes into play tapped. < 1387094525 724621 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: however I don't think one should optimize a language to be read by people who don't know the language < 1387094527 672312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not part of the array itself; Perl uses the square brackets to know that I mean an array @a rather than a scalar $a < 1387094544 336472 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there are some tradeoffs of course; the trailing comma in Python is also bad and special (and gone in Python 3) < 1387094545 619973 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION applies what ais is saying to matlab in order to amuse himself
< 1387094578 441082 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I agree. < 1387094579 401133 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: And in BASIC you use a trailing semicolon. And yes I agree with you in general that you don't think one should optimize a language to be read by people who don't know the language; I am simply saying there are such cases, and COBOL is one of them, due to its intended applications especially. < 1387094580 188449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I saw someone editing some Matlab code on Friday < 1387094585 804868 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm sorry < 1387094588 759713 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: (Re the optimisation.) < 1387094591 329867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but originally assumed it was Objective C because of the file extension < 1387094599 163358 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: are you opposed to matlab < 1387094601 38648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and got very confused < 1387094604 451372 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective Matlab++ < 1387094605 215360 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah emacs does that too < 1387094606 587744 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes < 1387094610 503507 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :matlab-- < 1387094618 89579 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that Objective C++ is a real language supported by GCC and not an esolang joke < 1387094635 281814 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: The phrase "comes into play tapped" can be considered a phrase by the parser; the card name could be entered "~" and treated as a phrase by the parser too, while the prettyprinter can expand it to the card's name. < 1387094636 424719 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. well i like it as a language. it's great for doing linalg < 1387094673 470725 :Lymia!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1387094673 699850 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's got a good ide and it has useful linalg features i haven't seen elsewhere but i hate everything else about it. < 1387094681 237176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, lots of people get confused by what the sigils mean in Perl < 1387094698 416627 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I see. Remind me what the relevance of this is though? I've forgotten. < 1387094702 458562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because most tutorials start off with "$ means scalar, @ means array", and then people assume they should use @ to refer to an array if they're indexing it < 1387094714 178223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the natural-language-likeness of it is simply just confusing < 1387094725 598732 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a real natural language! < 1387094730 771676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: I think zzo38 considers Magic card text to be a programming language < 1387094742 375257 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: You can do an "almost natural language", is what I mean < 1387094748 964786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty close already (and has only become more so because of Magic Online) < 1387094750 913177 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To program Magic players? < 1387094758 353226 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: if you like < 1387094782 405084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can tell me things about that one category where objects are categories and arrows are adjunctions < 1387094789 737940 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: As in, Magic cards are NL-like, but arguably not really NL because they are formulaic? < 1387094796 451169 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's a game it's more like a protocol language than a programming language? < 1387094807 258369 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: that does seem to be the way the TM works. of course, the hard part is leaving all the players with only one possible move so that they have to cooperate. < 1387094812 439176 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :other formulaic NL text: laws & contracts; math papers < 1387094816 41383 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be a sad day when i know anything about magic < 1387094822 979766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's that proof that Magic is Turing-complete < 1387094828 44934 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Something like that, yes. Not *exactly*, which is why I think such a "hybrid" approach is better < 1387094834 843029 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What? < 1387094850 280836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the current setup requires all players to do something other than nothing when the game gives them a choice < 1387094863 519680 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What are you approaching? < 1387094875 24441 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the periphery shield of vortex four < 1387094890 733585 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take an approach which allows entry in a way somewhat better for programming it while still working well for displaying too; for example, text in parentheses is a comment printed in italics (the parentheses are printed too); text in square brackets is a comment but is printed as is except the brackets are omitted; text in [- ... -] is Haskell code which isn't printed; ~ is printed as the card name; =s after a word is a plural; etc < 1387094897 147988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html < 1387094913 80673 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you expect it is possible to remove the "do nothing" option from every single turn? < 1387094925 979144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a small contribution to that (pointing out that an older version of the setup was wrong due to confusion caused by Wolfram propaganda) < 1387094933 179844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that's the major unsolved problem atm < 1387094940 540742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it may be possible, but it'd require a different setup < 1387094951 94504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a v. popular game at my current workplace < 1387094951 408405 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You would only use =s at the end for plurals of subtypes (rather than keywords), so something like "Desrtoy all Cat=s." instead of "Destroy all Cats." < 1387094959 362190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the problem is that there are so few phasing-related cards, and it's quite hard to replace phasing in the setup < 1387094965 762394 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dad wanted me to read a contract based on "you're a mathy guy" or somesuch < 1387094966 725125 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have played it a little bit and i even have, uh, a few hundred cards or something < 1387094973 39918 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But, "Draw 3 cards." (not "Draw 3 card=s.").) < 1387094973 679254 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dad is an authority on all matters, so kmc is right < 1387094984 343022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if zzo38 would like grammartree < 1387095064 377204 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What is the application of such a language? < 1387095111 824382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: In order to create Magic: the Gathering cards, so that you can both generate the pictures of the cards (such as to print out) and to run them on a computer program. < 1387095116 662286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: oh right, the main complication is that all the currently known cards that force spells to be cast with no decisions by anyone trigger at particular points in a turn < 1387095125 116229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that you can't set everything up entirely in one turn < 1387095134 166433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you know of a way to produce infinitely many upkeep steps? < 1387095137 140853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one turn? < 1387095157 376772 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ah, that makes sense. But if they're so formulaic already, why not just make a parser which can understand them? < 1387095176 674442 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Perhaps with extensions to allow you to describe difficult-to-parse cards. < 1387095185 650219 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what's really annoying. when you're reading a book and there's a typo of an open bracket or something so the whole rest of the book is quoted < 1387095271 747858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: There are things like using ~ for "this card" and stuff too, and to make the parsing work more simplified and working better; there are those and other reasons why I think it would be improvement to *not* enter them as "pure natural language" but rather to *almost* do it. < 1387095295 126413 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Anyways, using ~ in such a way is already common when entering card texts) < 1387095315 73757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think Wizards write it as "CARDNAME" internally < 1387095342 679187 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Sure, but a parser doesn't need to care about the difference between "~" and "this card". < 1387095347 372048 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes and it can be programmed to support that too (or instead) if done < 1387095376 330405 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be an esolang named Heptapod B < 1387095381 187639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: well, "this card" doesn't work, because then the card would stop working if someone made a token copy of it < 1387095382 823602 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1387095390 753479 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: Wrong. Both the parser and the printer need to care. The printer so that it can display the card's name properly, and the parser in case it is in a quoted ability. < 1387095390 947475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have to be "this permanent" (or the appropriate for abilities that trigger in other zones) < 1387095417 818357 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hey, kmc's reading /that/ < 1387095430 136727 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: well I read that story a while ago, but it's in a book with some others < 1387095436 764150 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1387095440 610008 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of which I read today < 1387095441 7913 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Could you explain, please? < 1387095444 65697 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i hven't remembered it anyway < 1387095447 456933 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1387095457 369515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: it's just a rules technicality: a token isn't a card < 1387095460 169258 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that wasn't even a coherent thought < 1387095461 968990 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually I think the rules specify that in such cases it does actually still work < 1387095463 989816 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But it doesn't matter what name you give the token. < 1387095480 875985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: huh, really? if so then it's a specific weird special case < 1387095484 163978 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, tokens have a meaning in Magic. That's right. < 1387095487 720643 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: today i wore a wristband with some text on it < 1387095501 210131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read the text out loud and then said "would be a good name for a band" < 1387095512 634811 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1387095513 78927 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't mean it has to be a card. In the example syntax I gave you could even enter it as "this [card]" rather than "this card" if you *do* need literally "this card" on the card, then it would make the parser easier and more sensible. < 1387095516 345534 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but was it? < 1387095535 604991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was kind of long and awkward < 1387095557 661636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i said it to Gracenotes so ask him < 1387095584 565823 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked the part in the one story where gur xnoonyvfg thl vairagf gur l pbzovangbe < 1387095599 951801 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1387095620 310495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i only vaguely remember that story < 1387095626 580649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: btw, you might be interested in http://www.toothycat.net/wiki/bnf.pl?page=AlexChurchill/MagicCardGenerator , which works using a parser for Magic card text; it runs the parser /backwards/ to produce legal cards < 1387095649 795443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :often not very sensible ones, though < 1387095702 741190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: Enchanted permanent gains "{T}: Destroy ~." Therefore the ~ should be treated as the timestamp of the card it is printed on at the time when the effect containing the ~ is used, it will make ~ into that card's timestamp. < 1387095720 471805 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hah, nice. < 1387095724 152824 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tap up to four target permanents and tap those permanents" < 1387095738 415252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I liked the discussion before it got derailed by Magic < 1387095748 562436 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Me too. < 1387095775 40351 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ yes nerds < 1387095794 76328 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if var'aq is considered natrualistic. < 1387095805 123260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I can't think of any programming language more natural-language-like than Perl, in terms of semantics rather than syntax < 1387095814 753194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except Perligata, which puts natural language syntax onto Perl < 1387095817 145690 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you also should parse phrases like "up to " and "those" and so on. < 1387095821 695670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to matching the grammatical behaviour up < 1387095835 841405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perligata isn't more natural-language-like than Perl, in terms of semantics rather than syntax. < 1387095843 778895 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To assign a value to a variable you must first push the value, then the name of the variable onto the stack. To push the name of a variable instead of its value, the spec tells you to use lI'moH operator. The cher operator can then be used to bind the value to the variable name." eh < 1387095849 502066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, it's mostly just syntax < 1387095863 279149 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :very disappointed that this artigcle isn't written in klingon < 1387095863 633224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: like Underload but with pointers? < 1387095882 502434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Humanity confuses more destructively than the awesome language" < 1387095896 445264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, MagicCardGenerator produced insightful and ontopic flavour text < 1387095941 534199 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perhaps PERL is quite NL-like in terms of semantics. Interesting, as I was thinking only about syntax (and lexicon, I suppose) to begin with. < 1387095970 651882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 152 < 1387095972 275759 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :152) syntax is the least important part of a programming language other than Python < 1387095976 566167 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which raises the question of how many of the languages mentioned are really naturalistic syntactically rather than just lexically. < 1387095988 442256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is, not many < 1387095994 919189 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine too. < 1387096029 290504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the experience of Perl shows that people tend to dislike naturalistics in their programming languages < 1387096045 869966 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Wait, was that actually flavour text? You had me thinking it was from the var'aq page. We should probably add it in. < 1387096046 60074 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it turns out I also wrote a program to make up random Magic: the Gathering card texts, although very incomplete < 1387096048 72277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather play Sandwich: The Card Game. < 1387096060 360170 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1387096061 233062 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1387096063 138575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: it was flavour text generated by that random magic card generator < 1387096064 782761 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote sandwich < 1387096066 310189 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :185) Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 683) There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose. < 1387096068 291043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sandwich - The Card Game < 1387096082 53766 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many octopus quotes do we have < 1387096085 698876 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote octopus < 1387096087 384115 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :185) Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m < 1387096089 86477 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://videogamena.me/ < 1387096096 140881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes octopus < 1387096096 689445 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run quote octopus | shuf < 1387096098 219000 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :185) Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m < 1387096102 461425 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27447 < 1387096104 300336 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What was the name of the card it went with? < 1387096106 971508 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :two. well, almost acceptable < 1387096112 812928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: just two < 1387096120 268981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: there wasn't one, it doesn't generate names < 1387096126 260574 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also like to play Professional Octopus of the World. < 1387096129 866043 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shall make a note to talk about octopuses at least once a day < 1387096131 846840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot to copy-paste the attribution < 1387096145 623199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Has anyone invented either of those games yet? < 1387096151 403286 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You're right. < 1387096152 461153 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: what's the deal with being smart even though they don't use myelination?? < 1387096173 764929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: they have really really thick nerves to compensate < 1387096181 553751 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, assholes < 1387096182 866353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, they're measured in centimetres < 1387096191 561606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a centimetre-wide cell is mindboggling < 1387096201 48977 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody tell ais about slime mold. < 1387096211 794826 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :squid giant axons are 1 mm, though. < 1387096214 963898 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha. < 1387096215 691603 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno what you're thinking of < 1387096222 408815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this slime mold juice is delicious!" < 1387096230 962244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: probably I was just off by an order of magnitude < 1387096238 581735 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, now i'm actually wondering what cytoplasm tastes like < 1387096249 751330 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not very good, generally < 1387096261 684646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably tastes much like water < 1387096266 578592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it mostly is water < 1387096268 42842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well < 1387096280 150640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you blend pretty much any organic material, there's going to be cytoplasm in there < 1387096282 996548 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some cells are pretty much more proteins than water. < 1387096288 460338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not the main contributing factor to the taste < 1387096293 575174 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get weird hydrodynamics. < 1387096297 89995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, protein tastes of protein < 1387096326 413728 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was my nethack fruit called, anyway < 1387096327 646996 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll just down some blood plasma < 1387096338 901345 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was 'schizocarp', ia m the opposite of creative < 1387096359 189006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, beautiful: this random card costs 4, flips into a 1/1 when there are at least 2 lands in play, and gives itself +1/-1 < 1387096365 140421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck trying to use /that/ thing < 1387096371 949790 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think someone invented those game and I don't really intend < 1387096390 880130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I use "avocado" locally, just because I wanted a real fruit that probably wasn't in the game already < 1387096394 808781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever eaten one < 1387096399 912858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I just leave it at the default online, though < 1387096409 385657 :constant!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :variable < 1387096440 234744 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm mauthner cells are also huge but fish are vertebrates. how vexing < 1387096496 474487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering if there are any organisms with bones but not backbones < 1387096539 854747 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. backbones evolved before bones. < 1387096549 458034 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you don't count things like cuttlebones. < 1387096585 436688 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'bone' could mean any number of things, i suppose~ < 1387096621 261717 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand < 1387096626 711673 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack lets you name fruits? < 1387096632 944640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: one specific fruit < 1387096635 480885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has a customizable name < 1387096652 856003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's normally just called "fruit" when people are talking about it, or sometimes "slime mold" after the default value < 1387096728 826155 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gross < 1387096839 386888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, a while back I was working on a natural language deparser in order to make NetHack produce better messages < 1387096853 888133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it did substitutions at the natural language parse tree level, rather than the textual level < 1387096864 17510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and add in pronouns, etc. < 1387096874 720561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was never finished, and we temporarily abandoned it so that we could get actual work done < 1387096925 361169 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Do you have the code around still? < 1387096945 573841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: yes < 1387096953 487665 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: How's your interpreter coming along? < 1387096978 610780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: https://gitorious.org/nitrohack/ais523/source/36824d7535d3ac7614875de4ec7559358d1860b1:libnethack_intl < 1387097002 169188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although note that we think there may be problems in the model of natural language it uses < 1387097014 241504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it sort-of collapsed into design-by-committee as to what those should be < 1387097048 38350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: also there's some documentation in https://gitorious.org/nitrohack/ais523/source/36824d7535d3ac7614875de4ec7559358d1860b1:doc/grammar.txt < 1387097061 83737 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so the idea would be to store language models for each language? and then construct the messages from the tree after substitution? and hope the model is good enough the result comes out grammatically correct? < 1387097072 224203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that's it, basically < 1387097097 656541 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I have most of a Tape class and a DistortionMap class, but haven't done any work since yesterday since I had food poisoning. I do plan to work on it more, though. < 1387097099 878327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tree used tokens to represent words, which were mostly the same as the word in English, except that if there were two homographs in English they'd have different tokens in grammartree < 1387097111 827787 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Thanks, I'll take a look some time. < 1387097150 284733 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: grammartree? is this the thing you were above wondering if zzo38 would like? < 1387097154 159767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was illuminating learning about the special cases in English < 1387097155 663549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes < 1387097177 255835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wasn't planning to cover all of English < 1387097181 377883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the subset that NetHack uses < 1387097184 960990 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: I though about re-implementing it in R since the inherent vectorisation would make applying distortion easier, but decided I don't know R well enough to do that sort of thing in it at present. < 1387097220 646166 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: also letting it be in python means i can create a module for it for my upcoming universal IDE :D :D: D < 1387097272 117964 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Cool. < 1387097296 173784 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: How is your said universal IDE coming along? < 1387097347 850214 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: well it's mainly to help me learn python and tk. i have figured out how to do menu of the things i need it to do already, though i am not sure about the current problem i'm trying to solve < 1387097355 557083 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/menu/many/ < 1387097394 383289 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What is the current problem? And why TK, by the way? < 1387097458 550131 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: those two questions should not be answered concurrently as they are very different discussions < 1387097464 493199 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: which do you want to start with < 1387097661 14288 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Let's start with the current problem. < 1387097683 684948 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1387097684 522167 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: And I should mention that I'm currently cooking, so may respond slowly. < 1387097940 343605 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: let's say that every language stores its UI and interpreter in a module which defines a class (implementing a specific abstract class), and all these modules are just stored in some folder. without any further config files, i want the IDE to be load these modules as needed in association with source files of the language they are for. < 1387097940 989775 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-141-173.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387097984 967524 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have read about using __import__, but i'm not sure what i should do to make sure I am keeping around an instance of the class loaded from the module < 1387098004 594388 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you get an instance of a class you don't know the name of until you have loaded the module? < 1387098060 126928 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose since i know the abstract class it implemented, i could find a class definition in the loaded namespace that claims to inherit from that class? < 1387098126 559288 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should i eschew __import__ and use execfile instead, creating a namespace for the exec'd file from the info about the IDE it needs? < 1387098156 872497 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the latter may introduce problems with destruction of the classes so loaded, and so i go in circles < 1387098342 897471 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What are the classes defined in each module being used for? Do they define the UI and interpreter? < 1387098358 282181 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: yes. < 1387098447 382090 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i have an idea < 1387098461 326324 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Just give them generic names like UI and Interpreter, you won't get a conflict assuming that you're only using one language at a time. < 1387098478 750763 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Or, if using multiple languages, they will be in different instances. < 1387098506 997752 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: explain that last? < 1387098522 998665 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :because yes it will be possible to have several different language types loaded at once < 1387098653 458685 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: You will have multiple editors or whatever, one for each language, and can set the active language individually for each editor. < 1387098654 529912 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently lots of people have food poisoning o_O < 1387098714 490452 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: import befunge < 1387098720 330930 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: UI = befunge.UI < 1387098725 476372 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: And so forth. < 1387098906 422998 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: but i won't know there is a module named befunge < 1387098926 140268 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: or UI = befunge.UI() if you want to make an instance of it. < 1387098948 304030 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: it will look more like: for all i,files in enumerate(folder): ns[i] = __import(file)__ < 1387098979 979823 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i create an instance in my namespace from something defined in another namespace? < 1387099031 521058 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Oh, I misunderstood you, I assumed that you didn't know that you needed a module called befunge, not that a module called befunge existed. < 1387099209 417612 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i misplaced some underscores there whoops < 1387099321 598425 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: now i remember it < 1387099335 232196 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1387099633 893717 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I would have used exec("import %s"%i) but that might be considered improper. < 1387099706 49550 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: But presumably you'll only use a language module on filetype identification or when a user requests it, so there's no point importing them on enumeration. < 1387099721 708614 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: sure. righto. < 1387099745 742662 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: but i was thinking of enumerating them to extract the filetype/module associations < 1387099758 177223 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i know what filetypes i support < 1387099811 333105 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/type/extension < 1387099914 102279 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-141-173.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually got a Nigerian Finance Minister spam < 1387099975 696427 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I would have just stored that information separately, but that does mean you have to maintain a central list of them. < 1387100017 413998 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: You could make a function which enumerates everything and writes a file containing filetype associations, so that you only have to enumerate when a new language module is added. < 1387100348 863681 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: bite the hook. coax a picture out of them. < 1387100357 609733 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-141-173.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, can't be bothered < 1387100454 173778 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: yes that is doable, but i'm still iterating the files to find one newer than the associations file every time i start. would it be all that faster than just rebuilding the table each time? < 1387100585 770856 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I was thinking to only rebuild the table when requested. < 1387100629 627920 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Plus you wouldn't have to do a complete rebuild, only add in the new definitions, so it probably would be faster, but perhaps only marginally. < 1387100643 976156 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: How many languages do you have defined so far / expect to have defined? < 1387101617 874465 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387102601 716739 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-141-173.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1387102770 371410 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Natural language programming at its best/worst: http://system-english.com/?page=sepapers < 1387102866 367976 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSMOSIAAAAN! < 1387103073 416679 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's already lolcode < 1387103083 276575 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's practically natural language programming < 1387103121 132902 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only for cats < 1387103128 696872 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, good point. < 1387103158 852744 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1387103173 459105 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1387103193 458089 :qlkzy_!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1387103225 933223 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably actually qualifies as much as COBOL or AppleScript, except for its limited number of instructions. < 1387103285 996675 :ineiros_!~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387103286 765831 :stuntaneous!~stuntaneo@2001:1af8:4700:a000:10:: QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387103316 262446 :ineiros!~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1387103353 11140 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a JOIN :#esoteric < 1387103553 261711 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: WhO kNoWs?? < 1387103569 802825 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :InFiNiTeLy MaNy < 1387103649 774782 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1387103714 93109 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a JOIN :#esoteric < 1387103761 336112 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Personally, as a user, I'd prefer to call Update Language Definitions if/when I install a new language module, rather than have it re-enumerate every startup, but checking for new modules on startup and updating file associations then wouldn't be too bad, especially if it's done in the background. < 1387103835 999102 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Or you could update the definitions if the IDE loads a file it doesn't recognise, since that is probably something a user will do soon after installing a new language. < 1387103848 116776 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: With an option to manually update definitions too. < 1387103851 34501 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: oh nice i like that idea < 1387103868 441802 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: If you weren't lazy you'd make it configurable, of course. < 1387103869 963773 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Cool. < 1387103941 421319 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: you mean the file association is configurable? that's easy. since each module defines what file extension it wants, if you want to configure them, just modify the line of the associated module, and manually update definitions! < 1387103985 146926 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: No, I mean the user can choose whether the definitions get checked/updated every startup or not. < 1387104028 588085 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :farrioth: oh yeah i'm probably too lazy for that :P < 1387104103 290440 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just realized the MTGTM page has a whole page dedicated to how all credit for anything creative anyone does actually goes to God. so...FUCK ALEX CHURCHILL. THANK GOD FOR THE MTG TM! < 1387104110 41835 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :import config < 1387104110 784040 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :if config.update_defs: update_defs() < 1387104126 661261 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i could do that much < 1387104136 14744 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm NOT MAKING A DAMN CONFIGURATION UI < 1387104180 848354 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just have your config file be a python module which gets imported. Not secure, but that isn't a problem in this case. < 1387104237 143108 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1387104662 904474 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a JOIN :#esoteric < 1387104681 225012 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1387104839 317770 :ineiros!~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387104924 51454 :ineiros!~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1387104962 813689 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1387105215 50846 :qlkzy!qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a JOIN :#esoteric < 1387106560 17858 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"perl -pe 's/^(.*)$/\L$& \U$&/g'" is there a shorter way to capitalize a string in a shell command < 1387106580 506468 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which contains newlines0 < 1387106668 203792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… what about "perl -000 -e 'print uc <>'" < 1387106672 973188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's shorter; does it work? < 1387106681 481509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, tr a-z A-Z < 1387106688 458601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that one isn't Unicode-aware < 1387107443 641552 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-23-135-162.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387108039 387611 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm off to bed, see you all around. < 1387108047 312466 :farrioth!~farrioth@148.123.252.27.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1387108210 924575 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387108435 95012 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387108641 160269 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1387109652 110015 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387109693 649794 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-23-135-162.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1387109870 225594 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1387110067 177007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Vorpal < 1387110069 723474 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1387110152 334266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1387112043 608911 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1387114663 470647 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :anticipation error hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1387115052 958457 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Helloover < 1387115529 327553 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1387115978 856548 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1387116479 201104 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387116846 148118 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@vpn32-214.rz.hs-offenburg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1387119010 401501 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-23-135-162.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387120216 437889 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1387121362 403065 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1387121381 433280 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the prerequisites to know before reading the homotopy type theory book? < 1387121558 815401 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1387121896 95387 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1387121907 725454 :Sorella!~quildreen@201.80.214.167 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387121943 397256 :Sorella!~quildreen@201.80.214.167 QUIT :Changing host < 1387121943 640507 :Sorella!~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella JOIN :#esoteric < 1387121970 892462 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387122005 536351 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1387122198 615207 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1387123206 24020 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com NICK :[li]|Gaming < 1387123246 817806 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Just start reading it, and if there is anything you don't know, research it < 1387123422 687146 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.124.252 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess "topology" and "type theory" will come up quite a bit < 1387123544 491938 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first chapter is completely about just type theory < 1387123569 130852 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being familiar with dependent types is useful < 1387124139 562672 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387124175 514295 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387124414 721894 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1387124456 841545 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387124544 267984 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com < 1387124961 797050 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1387125085 185242 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387125267 160832 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net PART :#esoteric < 1387125284 224497 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1387127853 69718 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1387128577 842050 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1387130369 210650 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387130842 62570 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387131061 494873 :[li]|Gaming!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com NICK :LinearInterpol < 1387131115 931155 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1387132092 131331 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1387132184 642706 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu NICK :ZuuSantaClaus < 1387133696 556308 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1387133808 220628 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@vpn32-214.rz.hs-offenburg.de QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1387133877 201828 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387133955 336361 :Sprocklem!~Sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387134556 77275 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387134592 804024 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387134603 469812 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/FbEzLiL.jpg < 1387134854 59482 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1387134923 23504 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.112.7.205 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387135155 890951 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1387135611 777980 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://venturebeat.com/2013/12/13/youtubes-out-of-control-content-id-system-even-flagged-jonathan-blow-for-posting-footage-of-his-own-game/ < 1387135667 283880 :ZuuSantaClaus!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387135916 218390 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, oh wow < 1387135966 124356 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1387135993 459762 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1387139718 176504 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT : < 1387140256 334957 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: that link just put dolphin browser into an infinite url-loading loop. i didn't even know that was possible. < 1387140310 70355 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1387140319 419672 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like quality software. < 1387140354 108349 :Bike_!~Glossina@71-222-63-213.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387140415 811218 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1387140417 462393 :Bike_!~Glossina@71-222-63-213.ptld.qwest.net NICK :Bike < 1387140438 699140 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is actually. this is the first time i've seen a bug like this in the three years i've used it < 1387140544 252423 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they forget to limit redirect loops or something? < 1387140565 245747 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1387140676 818014 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: It's possible to create redirect loops < 1387140713 437910 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's browsers who should limit them :) < 1387140842 474161 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: but the link above presumably worked for ion and vorpal, so i doubt that's what's going on < 1387140946 538011 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :they probably didn't use dolphin < 1387141013 258643 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but what happens when a redirect is limited? < 1387141066 123363 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1387141072 109635 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1387141149 550582 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :loading finishes with an error page, usually < 1387141259 426147 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think they got an error page < 1387141262 971289 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, besides 301 and friends it could also be a http refresh with a small delay, or some javascript setting window.location. < 1387141319 732685 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: wouldn't the browser have to at least rate limit those as well? < 1387141377 189300 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. I'm not ready to pass judgement on that ;) < 1387141425 870608 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-23-135-162.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1387141976 467484 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: are they using dolphin too? < 1387142220 152735 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1387143723 268176 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387145415 756926 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387145669 723477 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1387145982 883140 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387146791 52736 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has made up an extension of TeX for supporting multiple kind of marks on a page rather than just one kind, but I have made up a way to do it without using those extensions. In fact a large number of things can be done without any extensions. < 1387147300 768256 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1387148158 432206 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310] < 1387148882 104313 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1387148990 56285 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe JOIN :#esoteric < 1387149209 634540 :doesthiswork!~Adium@98.145.118.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387149285 787150 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4570a22a.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1387150827 892384 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am currently typing the Dungeons&Dragons game according to I played it yesterday < 1387151120 695968 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :write some brainfuck to type it out for you. < 1387151146 563935 :LinearInterpol!~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :less character variance and relevant! < 1387151172 916638 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just type it manually < 1387151302 635797 :mgdvoe!~mgdvoe@193.104.110.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1387151314 697473 :mgdvoe!~mgdvoe@193.104.110.139 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1387151409 234010 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1387151598 599179 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`danddreclist 46 < 1387151600 210391 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :danddreclist 46: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex < 1387151683 54988 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the *real* reason why Kjugobe doesn't want the door for the prison cell opened? (It isn't to prevent him from escaping. He already cannot escape.) < 1387151710 415283 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wants the prisoner to be safe < 1387151714 43716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he smells _real_ badly. < 1387151719 580827 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: No. < 1387151737 201734 :muskrat!musk@dyn2-85-23-163-249.psoas.suomi.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1387151739 494016 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No. There are bars; it isn't a plain door but rather bars so the smell would still come through. < 1387151762 715580 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess that takes care of my second guess of fire breath as well. < 1387151834 633703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The prisoner is human and is also in a coma, so even if he has fire he cannot easily use it. < 1387151866 564644 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would happen if the door were opened? < 1387151914 315668 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would not affect the prisoner or cause damage to the ship if it were opened? Can you try to figure out why I didn't want it opened? < 1387151936 970661 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can tell you if you don't know. < 1387151959 295292 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS IT A TRAP < 1387151963 875818 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITS A TRAP ISNT IT < 1387151989 952209 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure it is *not* a trap, actually, but that has nothing to do with it either.