00:00:52 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
00:00:52 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
00:00:53 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ /< | | /`\ c.c /^\ | |\|/< c.c |\
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00:04:50 <Sgeo> Mousepad decided to scroll the opposite direction for a brief period of time
00:08:56 <oerjan> it's that timey-wimey new year stuff.
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00:23:34 <int-e> ooh. colors explained ... http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031121
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00:32:04 <kmc> happy new year!
00:32:57 <int-e> oh, 2013 was BBB in base 13.
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01:07:13 <Sgeo> Even if the Worlds servers go offline forever, it will always be possible to visit the official Worlds.com worlds
01:08:14 <Bike> Thank Nar'Quilak, god of the Worlds and all who inhabit them
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01:12:44 <quintopia> what are you doing for new years eve
01:13:19 <Sgeo> kmc: the built-in Worlds are stored locally
01:13:26 <Sgeo> And there's an easy to use offline mode
01:17:06 <Sgeo> Should I be using Mozart/Oz 1.4 or Mozart 2?
01:17:23 <Bike> use at least 1.7
01:17:43 <Sgeo> [Mozart 2] adds an extension interface to the virtual machine to allow language extensions defined within Oz."
01:17:50 <Sgeo> ....suddenly I want Mozart 2
01:17:59 <Sgeo> But the main documentation site is all 1
01:18:12 <FireFly> quintopia: so far it's pretty similar to late 2013
01:31:10 <oerjan> quintopia: apart from all the eldrich abominations, it's quite similar.
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01:31:26 <quintopia> oerjan: sorry we never killed the abomination
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01:39:57 <lambdabot> (1.6363636363636365,1.6666666666666667)
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01:48:23 <zzo38> quintopia: I am not doing anything for new year's eve, yet
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02:23:57 <ion> Psy vs. Linkin Park https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycHluR67jiY&list=PLgcoT7-W0fP258nmxEy-2pkFJftUKjdRi
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02:29:27 <ion> http://www.ytj.fi/english/yritystiedot.aspx?yavain=2486686&kielikoodi=3&tarkiste=DA735DFD038226CA09DA2531FAFD93B8303B1F73&path=1704;1736;2052
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03:12:06 <kmc> same to you!
03:15:11 <nooodl> happy new year #esoteric~
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03:40:04 <Sgeo> Oz's or construct... doesn't do this statically, it's more a deadlock if it fails, but still cool: All branches except 1 must ..fail.. So you do have to write conditionals in each branch to exclude the other branches
03:40:09 <Sgeo> Which I think might be more readable
03:40:27 <Sgeo> The 'conditionals' will run simultaneously
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03:49:13 <zzo38> I made up a program in TI-92 calculator to select the puzzle chips for Puzzle Strike game at random.
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05:46:41 <quintopia> zzo38: you should build a drinking game i bet you'd be rich
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06:36:16 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't intend to do such a thing.
06:36:38 <quintopia> yes of course you don't you're zzo38
06:36:40 <Bike> merry hristmasc
06:40:59 <Bike> Given some pairs of starting and ending vertices on a graph, is the problem of finding a set of paths such that every vertex is hit as np-complete as the version with just one pair?
06:41:13 <Bike> and only once, i guess
06:48:48 <Bike> i guess you can probably turn that into normal hamiltonian path by adding edges between the starts and finishes.
06:48:58 <Bike> directed, though
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07:54:28 <Sgeo> I think Oz's WaitNeeded is pretty cool
07:54:38 <Sgeo> {WaitNeeded X} blocks until something else forces X
08:46:08 <Sgeo> "Tune in next year for the exciting beginning!"
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09:35:17 <zzo38> Now I added the year category
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09:58:53 <zzo38> Did you know that some conditions can be implemented in TeX without using the \if... conditional commands?
10:00:37 <zzo38> For example: \def\equalcond#1#2#3{\begingroup\expandafter\def\csname\number#2\endcsname{False}\expandafter\def\csname\number#3\endcsname{True}\edef\next{\endgroup\noexpand\csname#1\csname\number#2\endcsname\noexpand\endcsname}\next}
10:01:18 <zzo38> I also have \nonzerocond, \lesscond, \oddcond, \hmodecond, \vmodecond, \voidcond, and \vboxcond.
10:14:32 <Sgeo> } No, still looks like a blank. Ah, I've got it! It's that Unicode character that looks like a blank, is rendered as a blank, but is actually described as "a ghost in an invisibility cloak, juggling ferrets".
10:22:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, really? What code point is that?
10:23:26 <Sgeo> U+THATWASJUSMEQUOTINGTHEINTERNETORACLENOTAREALOBSERVATION
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11:19:45 <zzo38> Can this 142-byte program be shortened even more? \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
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13:31:54 <zzo38> FreeFull: It makes the "FizzBuzz" output
13:33:33 <FreeFull> Didn't look at it carefully enough
13:34:50 <zzo38> I tried to shorten it with "code golf", without any error messages
13:37:46 <FreeFull> I don't know if you can make it any shorter without switching to a different language
13:38:38 <zzo38> Yes, it can be shorter in other programming languages, but clearly that isn't what I am doing here.
13:39:11 <zzo38> I am writing it using TeX.
13:39:31 <zzo38> It does do a few strange things but maybe you can see if you can understand or not, these things.
13:42:29 <zzo38> For example, the use of \mit without math mode
13:44:07 <zzo38> \mit and \rm are both commands for changing the font, but this program never changes the font. \day is the register to store the current date, but this program doesn't care about the date and time. The \fam register is only for math mode, and this program doesn't use math mode.
13:47:05 <zzo38> Can you program in TeX at all?
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14:28:36 <zzo38> Do you understand a bit so far what I explain?
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14:58:37 <zzo38> Note that \mit is defined something like \def\mit{\fam1 } so if ~ means \advance then ~\mit will increment the \fam register (which does nothing outside of math mode). The \rm command, in addition to selecting the roman font (which is already selected, so it won't change it), has the effect of setting \fam to zero.
15:00:44 <zzo38> So it can shorten by using existing macros in unusual ways.
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15:30:05 <ais523> FreeFull: you don't prefer your fun to be pure?
15:30:37 <FreeFull> That's much more boring because you know what will happen
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16:07:50 <Jafet> “Theoretically, certain types of sleep could be possible while flying, but technical difficulties preclude the recording of brain activity in birds while they are flying.”
16:09:30 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) [1,5,3,6,7,2] :: [Integer]
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16:46:28 <impomatic> I've been trying to find out more about SURFIT, an ancestor of Core War.
16:48:50 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) ['z','x'..]
16:48:51 <lambdabot> "\NUL\STX\EOT\ACK\b\n\f\SO\DLE\DC2\DC4\SYN\CAN\SUB\FS\RS \"$&(*,.02468:<>@BD...
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16:49:02 <FreeFull> > (\(Sorted xs) -> xs) $ foldMap (Sorted . (:[])) ['z','x'..'a']
16:49:46 <FreeFull> I bet there is some way to combine compression with programming
16:49:57 <impomatic> There doesn't appear to be anything online apart from what I just posted https://plus.google.com/102212268901593257476/posts/YQs8bnXAdsc
16:50:20 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Wed Jan 1 16:50:20
16:51:07 <ais523> FreeFull: there are compression quines
16:53:49 * impomatic wonders if anyone has written a threaded Forth with dictionary compression.
16:54:24 <FreeFull> ais523: I was thinking of a language where meaning changes as you go through the source code, in a similar way to compression sort of
16:54:52 <FreeFull> Where future code would refer to slices of past code, but more complex than that
16:55:15 <Jafet> Eventually, FreeFull invents FORTRAN.
16:56:07 <FreeFull> You know that's not how I meant it =P
16:56:42 <Jafet> Now I want to make zperl
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16:57:30 <ais523> you could use compression-like rules for flow control
16:57:40 <ais523> like, have no loops or conditionals, all you can do is repeat commands that ran earlier
17:01:44 <Jafet> So boring, why not design around actual compression. A program that retains meaning when reduced in the frequency domain.
17:02:24 <Jafet> (cf. http://www.ioccc.org/2011/akari/akari.c)
17:04:01 <ais523> what about a language with the restriction that the compiler rejects source files that become smaller when compressed?
17:04:13 <ais523> i.e. it aggressively rejects code duplication
17:04:32 <ais523> preferably using a compression algorithm that isn't fooled by adding large random comments
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17:13:05 <FreeFull> You don't get comments, you just get code that you skip over
17:13:16 <FreeFull> I'm not sure if such a language would be turing complete
17:20:43 <Jafet> If the language is defined such that a program's output is interpreted as a program in another language, then any (second-stage) program can be written in its Kolmogorov length.
17:21:57 <ais523> FreeFull: no, I don't mean skipped code / comments in particular
17:22:10 <ais523> I mean a compression algorithm that still compresses the compressible bits even if there are incompressible bits too
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18:18:53 <quintopia> FreeFull: check out my language ETAS. it kind of does what you're talking about
18:19:32 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ETAS
18:20:58 <quintopia> FreeFull: except that it does have that jump command which may not be required for turing-completeness. i should probably remove it.
18:28:24 <FireFly> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1u5odz/dogs_poop_in_alignment_with_earths_magnetic_field/ fascinating.
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18:33:42 <Jafet> quintopia: if zzo asked me for reading frames I would just point to x86
18:36:13 <quintopia> Jafet: do you know of any programs for x86 that predictably perform different useful tasks depending upon your starting offset into the program (no cheating by putting programs in as data or jumping past them)
18:37:00 <Jafet> Why is that cheating
18:37:14 <Bike> i believe that is the basic idea behind "functions"
18:37:26 <Jafet> (Try writing a nontrivial "etas" program without doing that)
18:37:57 <quintopia> Jafet: it would be hard, but, i would hope, at least possible.
18:41:27 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/2011/akari/akari.c may be relevant (resampling a program to get another program)
18:42:08 <olsner> quintopia: someone linked a paper about finding unintended code sequences to use for exploits a while ago
18:42:11 <Jafet> To achieve this, the original program has to be very redundant.
18:42:46 <Jafet> ROP uses a large amount of jumping, so it is "cheating" in the above sense
18:42:53 <quintopia> Jafet: yeah i really like that submission
18:43:07 <Jafet> More importantly, it is cheating because the actual program is the prepared stack
18:44:42 <quintopia> Jafet: but the goal with etas was to have something that was "the middle bits of an instruction" later be parsed as "the beginning of an instruction". it's not something i had ever seen in another language.
18:45:46 <Jafet> The only reasonable way to multiprogram in etas, I think, is to cheat
18:46:54 <Jafet> The difficulty probably depends highly on the instruction encoding.
18:48:20 <quintopia> still, it didn't seem possible to program in malbolge either at one point...
18:48:57 <ais523> <quintopia> Jafet: but the goal with etas was to have something that was "the middle bits of an instruction" later be parsed as "the beginning of an instruction". it's not something i had ever seen in another language. ← see MiniMAX, http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
18:49:15 <ais523> it's the only way to do any sort of flow control, arithmetic, or well anything
18:49:46 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i think i saw that well after i made etas
18:50:01 <ais523> each instruction is three bytes long, one is a value to write, one is overwritten by the value-to-write of the next command, and one tells you which command to run next (unconditionally)
18:50:12 <ais523> you're not going to get anywhere without command-punning in that language
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18:56:08 <quintopia> i should read the smallfuck interpreter code. it's not clear to me how it would work
19:09:16 <Sgeo> "We're just going through our records and -- even though you're one of our best supporters -- it looks like you're not a 2013 founding member." ... pretty sure I donated money between 0 and 1 times. I pretty much ignore these emails... is "best supporter" just supposed to make me feel good, it's just a lie?
19:10:08 <ais523> Sgeo: I suspect so, mail order catalogues do that all the time
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21:18:21 <Vorpal> Wow, the sale for Just Cause 2 has some fucked up pricing. The cheapest option is not to buy the "Collection" with the game + the DLC, nor is it to buy the game then the DLC pack. No it is to buy the game and then the DLC individually it appears!
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21:23:10 <Vorpal> Basically Just Cause 2 is 80% off. Most of the individual DLC are 81% off(!!!). Except one that is 80% off. The collections are only 50% off each.
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21:26:14 <int-e> ah but I can save even more money by not buying the game at all.
21:28:59 <Vorpal> int-e, well yeah, but in what other game can you go out on the wing of a aircraft you are flying and *grapple hook* over to another aircraft and then throw the pilot out through the window
21:29:27 <Vorpal> Just Cause 2 is one hell of an awesome sandbox game for just doing crazy stuff in
21:29:51 <Vorpal> Such as using your two point grapple hook to tow a tank with a Boeing 747
21:30:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Price of individual games: 6,11€" "Bundle cost: 14,99€" yes, it looks like a good deal.
21:30:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, the game costs 2.99 discounted here
21:31:06 <Vorpal> and the DLC add up to 1.73 EUR
21:31:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't get that to 6.11
21:31:18 <elliott> apparently they've started making USB drives show up as internal disks in windows
21:31:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was for the collection including also the first game.
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21:31:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah right, well the first game is meh from what I heard
21:32:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, also the multi player mod for Just Cause 2 recently released
21:32:31 <int-e> elliott: who "they"?
21:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, that happened in windows 7 didn't it? At least external rotational USB HDDs had to be removed by "safe removal" thingy in the area next to the clock which I forgot the name of
21:33:15 <Vorpal> Unlike USB flash sticks which you can just right click and select eject on
21:34:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the "notification area" these days.
21:34:36 <fizzie> "When referring to the notification area: Refer to the notification area as the notification area, not the system tray." (MSDN)
21:34:59 <fizzie> Also: "Do not taunt the notification area." (Not MSDN, sadly.)
21:35:40 <int-e> so why is the notification area full of stuff that's not notifications?
21:35:55 <ais523> because people think it's a good place to put advertising
21:36:02 <Vorpal> Because everyone still treats it as the system tray
21:36:09 <fizzie> Because people can't follow directions, perhaps.
21:36:12 <fizzie> "Well-designed programs use the notification area appropriately, without being annoying or distracting."
21:36:24 <ais523> these rules exist because they're so often violated
21:36:31 <fizzie> (It doesn't say what programs that are not well-designed do.)
21:36:46 <Vorpal> The only static icons there that has ever been of any use to me have been the network status and on non-multimedia keyboards, the volume setting
21:36:46 <int-e> if it's not supposed to distract it should be invisible at all times.
21:37:25 <fizzie> I assume the fact everyone puts an always-visible icon there is what made them implement the notification area icon hiding thing.
21:37:29 <Vorpal> I have no idea why steam on windows minimizes into that area also
21:37:42 <Vorpal> That thing is really useful
21:38:04 <Vorpal> Oh yeah at work I also have the Incredibuild icon there. That is like a distcc for windows
21:38:44 <Vorpal> Actually more like a distributed make, since it is a bit smarter about it than distcc
21:38:48 <fizzie> Linux Steam pops up a tray (it's really a tray, the freedesktop.org specification says so) icon too.
21:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but it *also* stays in the normal task bar as well when minimized
21:40:34 <Vorpal> XChat and VLC manages to properly minimize to that tray if you want to at least
21:40:41 <Vorpal> Not that I see the point of that
21:40:50 <fizzie> I don't know if Linux Steam knows how to put up an Ayatana "indicator" if running under a Gnomey thing.
21:41:27 <fizzie> Sorry, I guess Ayatana indicators are maybe Ubuntu-specific? I don't really know how it goes.
21:41:36 <Vorpal> Also yeah MATE would definitely count as Gnomey
21:41:52 <Vorpal> Debian with MATE here, mate
21:41:59 <ais523> fizzie: Ayatana's Ubuntu-specific, indeed
21:42:08 <fizzie> It's part of the Ubuntu "user experience" project, I don't know if regular Gnome got the indicators.
21:42:25 <ais523> VLC on Ubuntu should be hiding in the launcher with a context menu, rather than the tray with a context area
21:42:48 <Vorpal> ais523, it only uses the tray if you click on the tray icon to minimize it
21:43:00 <Vorpal> Otherwise it simply minimizes to the normal task bar
21:43:10 <ais523> Vorpal: what annoys me is that it has a tray icon at all
21:43:13 <ais523> although you can turn that off
21:43:30 <ais523> it doesn't have nice controls on the right-click menu on the launcher like Totem does, though, because it's not Unity-aware
21:44:02 <Vorpal> Eh, someone who is computer savy and uses Unity?
21:44:05 <fizzie> There's at least a GNOME Shell extension to integrate "indicators" there. Though as far as I can tell, it's not part of Gnome proper, perhaps.
21:44:19 <ais523> Vorpal: I /like/ Unity :-(
21:44:23 <ais523> but it is rather slow and buggy
21:44:29 <ais523> actually most of the slowness is Zeitgeist's fault
21:44:33 <Vorpal> Last I tried unity, which was admittedly in the first ubuntu version it was included, it was terrible
21:44:44 <Vorpal> What is Zeitgeist now again?
21:44:49 <ais523> until recently I used it just for the launcher
21:45:08 <fizzie> (Fun fact: Ayatana also includes "windicators".)
21:45:11 <ais523> although more recently the lenses/scopes have been useful too
21:45:27 <ais523> Vorpal: Zeitgeist's purpose is basically recording which files you've opened
21:45:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, you say gnome shell, are you talking about the abomination that is Gnome 3?
21:45:32 <ais523> in order to get useful "recently used" output
21:45:39 <ais523> except it is mindbogglingly overengineered for that purpose
21:45:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, that's what Gnome is.
21:46:02 <coppro> ais523: I wanted to ask you. Do you know of any good let's plays that do weird things and pretend they're entirely normal. I watched an absolutely brilliant Link's Awakening one
21:46:24 <Vorpal> ais523, hm Spotlight on OS X and even more so the Windows 7 start menu search/run field works fine. How hard could it be to replicate that
21:46:29 <ais523> coppro: I don't like that style of play, really
21:46:32 <Vorpal> which btw I have been looking for under linux
21:46:34 <ais523> if people are being weird I like them to acknowledge it
21:46:48 <coppro> ais523: I find ig hilarious
21:46:57 <ais523> so no, although there was a Link's Awakening speedrun like that at one of the SDA marathons
21:47:01 <ais523> it's a good game to act like that
21:47:04 <coppro> "watch out for the old grandmas here, sometimes they shoot octoroks at you"
21:47:05 <Vorpal> coppro, lparchive? Or some youtube thing?
21:47:15 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons game this morning. My plan wasn't necessary; I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary, since it would be complicated to set up.
21:47:20 <Vorpal> My favourite LP is the Planescape Torment one on lparchive
21:47:22 <ais523> I guess the problem with pretending it's normal is that you don't get an explanation of the technical details
21:47:47 <zzo38> It wasn't very good to eat, but, that's OK
21:48:31 <Vorpal> <coppro> "watch out for the old grandmas here, sometimes they shoot octoroks at you" <-- he glitched the game?
21:49:00 <coppro> Vorpal: very very heavily
21:49:23 <ais523> watch out for the birdphone
21:49:25 <Vorpal> When speed running gets to that level I find it detracts from the experience
21:49:52 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a character that acts like a shopkeeper (up to the instakill effect)
21:49:57 <ais523> but looks like a bird or a telephone
21:49:57 <Vorpal> I just get google hits for someone's twitter account
21:50:02 <ais523> changing between them repeatedly
21:50:51 <coppro> Vorpal: "Welcome to the first dungeon. I don't know why they call it level 8, the developers can't count or something. Now we're about to get the fire rod... it's really strange that they put the strongest item in the first dungeon."
21:50:54 <ais523> it's probably the most memorable effect of the major glitching
21:51:01 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZP63oRVcgg fantastic
21:51:31 <Vorpal> will watch in a second, just going through the latest ocremixes. They decided to post 10 today.
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21:52:47 <fizzie> Somehow I think I've been getting less of the HTML5 player in YouTube lately. :/
21:53:07 <Vorpal> Ah found the LP in question
21:53:16 <Vorpal> Yeah this might be run to look at
21:53:24 <Vorpal> Given that I know how the game is *supposed* to go
22:00:17 <FireFly> nooodl: that reminds me of messing around with that bug with the dog house
22:03:08 <FireFly> coppro: what Link's Awakening let's play was this?
22:03:20 <coppro> I don't have a link on hand, but vorpal found it apparently
22:03:44 <FireFly> Vorpal: mind passing a link to it?
22:07:33 <Vorpal> FireFly, http://lparchive.org/Legend-of-Zelda-Links-Awakening/
22:07:41 <Vorpal> I assume that is what he meant, it fits the bill perfectly
22:07:51 <Vorpal> Also yes it is super-funny if you know how the game is supposed to go
22:07:57 <Vorpal> It makes NO bloody sense if you don't
22:15:47 <Vorpal> coppro, this is bloody amazing
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22:17:57 <coppro> I'd love to see, e.g. a Metroid Prime any% run done like that
22:18:22 <Vorpal> coppro, are there suitable glitches in that game?
22:19:13 <coppro> in terms of sheer absurdity, MP2 would probably be better, because it involves way more out of bounds
22:21:14 <ais523> the start of the Metroid Prime 2 run at AGDQ2013 was done like that
22:21:19 <ais523> but they couldn't really keep it up
22:25:04 <coppro> I guess they might actually do that for miles' run next week
22:25:16 <coppro> it'll only be an hour long and there are plenty of glitches throughout
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22:25:27 <ais523> it's MP1 any%, isn't it?
22:25:44 <ais523> that's not particularly glitchy, in the sense that most of the things it does, it's believable that they're intended
22:25:52 <ais523> apart from the out of bounds segment, but there's only one short one
22:26:04 <coppro> it is any%, but there's so much breakage
22:26:06 <ais523> they aren't intended, but they don't look so massively unintended
22:26:21 <ais523> most of it's just "jump further than expected" or "jump higher than expected"
22:26:34 <coppro> not in terms of actual glitches, but the sequence breaks
22:26:44 <ais523> yeah, the sequence is completely different
22:26:46 <ais523> but it's a Metroid game
22:26:51 <ais523> you're meant to be able to do that
22:27:01 <ais523> Space Jump first? sure, why not
22:28:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> you're meant to be able to do that <-- to some extent
22:28:18 <Vorpal> I only played about half of Super Metroid
22:28:34 <Vorpal> And some stuff was definitely gated by needing something else to reach it
22:28:39 <coppro> most of the MP sequence breaks are glitches and were corrected in later editions; fusion, prime 3, and other M are all linear games built with triggers so you can't really break them
22:29:35 <ais523> Vorpal: hardly anything, because Super Metroid has a bunch of special moves you're not meant to realise exist the first time through
22:29:46 <ais523> coppro: actually, Prime 3 has already been broken
22:29:55 <coppro> super metroid and zero mission were built with more stuff
22:30:01 <ais523> Fusion and Other M have been attempted to break, but Fusion softlocks if you go out of sequence
22:30:09 <ais523> and Other M is full of invisible walls
22:30:21 <coppro> ais523: yeah, prime 3 can only really be broken with OOB though
22:30:44 <ais523> Vorpal: the main ones are the walljump and six varieties of shinespark (the game only tells you about one of them, and even then only in an optional area)
22:30:50 <coppro> so it's really a different class of glitch
22:30:59 <ais523> coppro: Hazard Shield skip
22:31:09 <coppro> ais523: yeah, that one wokrs
22:31:20 <ais523> Vorpal: if you don't know what a shinespark is, then it's safe to say that you don't understand what intended breaks are built into Super Metroid
22:31:28 <ais523> the easy way to do one, a ground-based vertical one
22:31:34 <ais523> is to get up to speed boost speed, crouch, then jump
22:31:35 <coppro> ais523: it's hard to know if they're all intended
22:31:40 <ais523> then you keep going upwards
22:31:41 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah as I said I only got about 1/4 to 1/2 into it
22:31:51 <coppro> it's entirely possible that the devs just didn't think about the consequences of the shinespark
22:32:03 <coppro> and there are definitely dumb physics glitches like the gravity glitch
22:32:14 <ais523> coppro: in my opinion, it's most likely that they explicitly didn't want to think about the consequences
22:32:26 <coppro> ais523: you also forgot the ridiculous things you can do with bomb jumps
22:32:30 <ais523> anyway, Super Metroid has a definite intended sequence
22:32:37 <ais523> coppro: no, I didn't mention the infinite bomb jump, because it's possible it's a glitch
22:32:51 <coppro> ais523: not even the infinite one, but the sideways ones
22:32:52 <ais523> whereas the shinespark is most definitely intended, as is walljump, as is crystal flash
22:33:04 <coppro> gravity suit physics is definitely a glitch too
22:33:09 <ais523> that glitch is in lots of games
22:33:11 <coppro> but yeah, I agree that the philosophy of SM is very different
22:33:16 <ais523> it works in many Zelda games, for instance
22:33:57 <ais523> I have on my hard-drive an unfinished guide to glitches that appear all the time in games
22:34:12 <ais523> some even work in NetHack :-)
22:34:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I just googled shinespark. I do believe I activated some variant of it by mistake at some point but never figured out how to do it again. But it was years ago I played any metroid, didn't really like the game, so I never went back to it.
22:34:34 <Vorpal> So I could misremember
22:34:47 <zzo38> ais523: What glitches are some of them?
22:34:50 <ais523> Vorpal: anyway, the point is that most of the areas that appear to require specific items
22:34:57 <zzo38> And in what kind of games?
22:35:01 <ais523> are actually accessible via a combination of walljumps, infinite bomb jumps, and shinesparks
22:35:01 <coppro> the big difference between SM and MP I think is that SM has a bunch of features, and doesn't work in all the details of how they might affect the sequence. MP breaks almost exclusively require physics glitches
22:35:18 <coppro> SJF is unusual in that it *doesn't*, but the devs attempted to squash it in future versions anyways
22:35:22 <ais523> coppro: well they're mostly numerical glitches
22:35:39 <ais523> SJF is a numerical glitch in that you get it via dashing further than you should be able to
22:35:56 <coppro> yeah, actually, I guess the exact dash effect could be seen as a glitch too
22:35:58 <ais523> actually you can get it by bombjumping too, but that needs you to actually get bombs first
22:36:02 <coppro> but there's other things, like early Wild
22:36:08 <coppro> which is just a poorly placed trigger
22:36:10 <ais523> coppro: well they tried to fix it in Metroid Prime 2, and in Metroid Prime PAL
22:36:21 <ais523> in Metroid Prime 2, you have to let go of L (as in MP1) but also hold R, which is diffrent from MP1
22:36:36 <ais523> in the PAL version, you have to do it off an enemy, which means luring an enemy out of one of the nearby corridors, so it's much slower
22:36:53 <ais523> also, early Wild isn't a poorly placed trigger
22:36:58 <ais523> that's like the only place in the game where an infinite bomb jump works
22:37:06 <ais523> I'd say the trigger's in the right place but the walls are weird
22:37:19 <ais523> making the infinite bomb jump possible
22:37:55 <ais523> but then, early Wild is awesome and the game's better for it existing
22:37:59 <ais523> and it doesn't hurt anything
22:38:01 <coppro> other great ones: cargo ship skip, every thing about skipping Thardus
22:38:08 <ais523> it's not like the Artifact of Wild actually does anything until after you'd normally need it
22:38:12 <coppro> TBJ breaks a lot and you can do worse
22:39:21 <ais523> also triple bomb jumps are pretty rarely useful
22:39:51 <ais523> cargo ship skip is the only one I can think of offhand, now that the rune door leading to the Charge Beam (?) turns out to be faster in in-game time to do the intended way
22:40:09 <coppro> I think you're thinking the one to flaaghra
22:41:01 <ais523> I was trying to remember which was which
22:41:07 <ais523> they are so similar-looking :-(
22:41:23 <coppro> nah, the charge beam one is a big round one
22:42:46 <ais523> I thought the big round one went to Flaahgra
22:42:50 <ais523> also, something that I've been wondering about
22:42:57 <ais523> what do you actually need the charge beam for?
22:43:12 <ais523> even low%s get it, and I don't think they need super missiles
22:43:23 <ais523> and the only point I can think of that might potentially need it is the entrance to Phendrana
22:44:57 <Vorpal> coppro, wow the logistics of making that glitch Zelda LA LP
22:45:35 <coppro> ais523: ugh, I was reading this discussion on m2k2 the other day and now I can't remember
22:45:52 <ais523> I was thinking of looking on m2k2
22:45:56 <ais523> are the forums still alive?
22:46:14 <ais523> I know the main website wasn't, last I looked
22:47:04 <coppro> charge beam has been skipped
22:47:32 <coppro> current min% is missiles, morph ball, bombs, varia, wave, ice, plasma, pbs, xray, and artifacts
22:48:48 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering which missiles that is
22:49:05 <ais523> could be the intended ones, I guess, there's no reason not to except it's a long fight
22:49:22 <ais523> also that min% doesn't add up
22:49:35 <coppro> 12 artifacts + 9 items
22:49:47 <ais523> 12 artifacts, + {missiles, morph ball, bombs, varia, wave, ice, plasma, power bombs, x-ray scope}
22:49:51 <ais523> that skips phazon suit
22:49:55 <ais523> which is required for the final boss
22:50:20 <coppro> phazon suit isn't a % unless it's the last one
22:50:41 <ais523> oh, it doesn't count towards percentage if you don't have gravity?
22:50:49 <ais523> I thought it counted for 2%
22:50:50 <coppro> no, it doesn't count unless you have all other items
22:51:46 <coppro> or maybe it doesn't count at all and the game just has no 99%; I don't know if anyone's gotten the energy tank afterward without it to be able to test this
22:51:47 <ais523> MP1's percentage counter is weird
22:52:08 <ais523> did you know that collecting all the power bomb expansions but not the main power bombs gives you the same percentage as collecting the main power bombs?
22:52:23 <coppro> I guess it just counts by number of PBs?
22:52:37 <ais523> in Metroid Prime 2, they just add 1% whenever you collect an item
22:52:47 <ais523> so you can get 101% because there's one missile expansion you can pick up twice
22:53:04 <coppro> the MP1 counter sounds like every bug ever in NetHack
22:53:45 <coppro> the infinite boost item loss skip is so stupid
22:54:08 <ais523> that one makes no sense
22:54:16 <ais523> I know the technical details are that it triggers every cutscene in the room at the same time
22:54:28 <ais523> and the one where you land triggers before the one where you start falling so you end up at the wrong position
22:54:45 <ais523> but I have no idea /why/ it triggers every cutscene in the room at the same time
22:54:50 <ais523> maybe Samus ends up infinitely large or something
22:54:55 <ais523> hitting all the triggers at once
22:55:27 <coppro> the 20% MP1 thread on m2k2 is fun to read
22:56:32 <coppro> morph ball, missiles, bombs, pbs, xray, and artifacts all seem entirely unskipabble, barring some insane break that lets you into the impact crater without the artifacts
22:57:46 <ais523> missiles aren't actually required for anything but doors, right?
22:57:50 <ais523> I put them in the same category as beams
22:58:01 <ais523> possibly slightly easier because you don't have to hit the final boss with them
22:58:11 <coppro> getting the artifact of nature from the stalagmite
22:58:22 <ais523> can't you do that with the Charge Beam?
22:58:48 <coppro> maybe, but then you go up a % anyway
22:59:35 <coppro> one suggestion in the 20% thread was to get SJ and try and lose varia (assuming that SJ will help crossing magmoor) and something else like wave
22:59:38 <ais523> bombs are required for bomb jumps, in addition to many obstacles
22:59:40 <coppro> wave seems like a popular target
22:59:57 <ais523> yeah but how do you beat the final boss without it?
23:00:04 <coppro> just wait for him to change naturally
23:00:04 <ais523> there aren't that many places you need it otherwise
23:00:12 <ais523> I don't think he does in the first wave phase
23:00:14 <coppro> doors are the problem; they need to be SWed around
23:00:36 <ais523> actually I prefer the "Dark Samus is male" theory but it's not very popular
23:00:55 <coppro> I ascribe Dark Samus as female, but Metroid Prime as genderless
23:01:08 <coppro> and I tend to run with the French convention of using the masculine for neutral/unknown
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23:01:28 <coppro> due to having been in French immersion
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23:32:38 <ais523> coppro: btw, looking up the beam use on the final boss itself, it forces you to use power/ice/wave but you can get away without plasma
23:32:46 <ais523> because it's reached the spontaneous-change phase before plasma is required
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