00:00:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem to remember that open source game where you guide a black ball around a maze having a level based on brainfuck
00:00:58 <Vorpal> Can't remember the name of the game
00:00:58 <fizzie> Robozzle is also kind of like an esolang, but it's not exactly a "mainstream" game.
00:01:48 <kmc> which actual fuck myname?
00:01:53 <myname> i especially like that there is an android port
00:02:10 <myname> kmc: i'm just not used to zzo yet
00:02:59 <ais523> http://enigma-game.org
00:03:01 <zzo38> I have made up a similar game to Robozzle too but there isn't enough levels yet
00:03:17 <ais523> I've developed levels for it, that are actually in the official released versions (not just modding)
00:03:22 <myname> zzo38: define "similar"
00:03:24 <ais523> perhaps the most infamous one is a backwards Sokoban
00:03:34 <ais523> where you're given an empty room where you can build walls and place boxes
00:03:39 <ais523> and the level solves it and then tells you it was too easy
00:03:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:03:54 <ais523> or alternatively, if it's impossible, makes you go solve it yourself (you can't)
00:04:25 <fizzie> There's an Android port of SpaceChem too, sadly not automatically available if you have the computer version. (Didn't really do the "post-game" content, might on the tablet.)
00:04:53 <Taneb> I wasn't much good at SpaceChem
00:05:30 <fizzie> I was barely good enough to get through it.
00:05:49 <zzo38> myname: You have set of commands available (which can differ per level), and rows of programming you can fill in, and have to catch all of the diamonds before the program stops. There can be diamonds in places where there is no floor; you can step there safely but then cannot step there a second time unless the hole is filled in. If there is a "$" then you must catch that one last, otherwise you lose.
00:05:55 <Vorpal> I found it pretty boring, so I didn't play more than maybe two worlds of it
00:06:07 <Vorpal> At that point at least it wasn't really hard.
00:06:14 <fizzie> It quite resembles an arbitrarily constrained Befunge, though.
00:06:19 <Vorpal> I just found it monotonous
00:06:37 <myname> fizzie: i stumbled upon a game based on an esolang recently
00:06:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, and I suspect it isn't TC?
00:06:48 <zzo38> myname: Does this description explain it?
00:07:16 <myname> zzo38: sounds like a slightly modified robozzle
00:07:32 <myname> there should be more interesting commands available!
00:07:47 <zzo38> myname: Yes, although the engine is entirely rewritten, in QBASIC.
00:07:53 <myname> Phantom__Hoover: tbh, i don't like most of them
00:07:59 <zzo38> And more commands can be added if you have an idea what to add!
00:08:01 <myname> i really like the idea
00:08:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure it has finite state, yes.
00:08:36 <Phantom__Hoover> fizzie, you have those production line things though, you could extend them to be infinite queus
00:08:53 <myname> zzo38: why qbasic? i used that when i was like 12 years old
00:09:16 <kmc> i should figure out how to wrap up my "x86 is turing complete with no registers" post
00:09:37 <fizzie> And that's true. They have a finite maximum capacity as implemented, though.
00:09:52 <kmc> well wait and read the article
00:09:52 <myname> i'd love something like an ncurses game engine for android
00:09:54 <zzo38> myname: I write in a computer that is the only compiler, the QBASIC compiler. Also, QBASIC is not bad for writing these kind of computer games actually.
00:10:00 <kmc> it has finite storage though, but so does x86 itself, or C
00:10:04 <Vorpal> kmc, With infinite ram I assume, but there is not an infinite address space
00:10:25 <Vorpal> kmc, then it really isn't TC. And nor is C indeed
00:10:39 <kmc> justifying this is the last part of the article I need to write
00:10:57 <Vorpal> Justifying a false claim?
00:11:12 <fizzie> kmc: Just call it something else, perhaps.
00:11:14 <shachaf> did you know that comonads are just cofree comonad comonad comonad coalgebras
00:11:16 <ais523> just because something is false doesn't make it unjustifiable
00:11:21 <kmc> justifying that a brainfuck implementation with a fixed sized tape meets the informal definition of "turing complete" that programmers use
00:11:28 <Vorpal> kmc, Anyway, I would say that proving it is a bounded storage machine without registers is pretty cool too
00:11:35 <ais523> you can come up with plenty of plausible reasons why something was likely to happen, even if it didn't
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00:11:51 <kmc> i mean e.g. there's a famous paper titled "mov is Turing-complete" about x86 with the mov instruction, and this would seem to have the same issue
00:11:56 <kmc> with only the mov instruction, i mean :)
00:12:13 <kmc> that's right
00:12:18 <kmc> they have one unconditional jump
00:12:25 <ais523> can't you just cycle round the entirety of memory?
00:12:31 <ais523> actually, if you keep going long enough
00:12:39 <Vorpal> cmov yes, but mov? Wow
00:12:43 <ais523> you'll end up activating the A20 line trying to decode the next address
00:12:47 <kmc> yeah, read the paper
00:12:48 <ais523> and I guess you could activate it with mov too
00:12:48 <shachaf> well, x86 mov is quite versatile
00:12:52 <ais523> so you could reboot the system
00:12:55 <Vorpal> ais523, only in real mode surely?
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00:13:10 <Vorpal> ais523, shouldn't happen in protected or long mode
00:13:12 <ais523> I guess the next question is, is lea Turing complete?
00:13:13 <fizzie> I didn't like how the mov+jmp one "halts" with an invalid memory access.
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00:13:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I learned from 8086 manuals
00:13:33 <kmc> lea can't access memory can it?
00:13:36 <Taneb> Wasn't there one that uses page-fault errors?
00:13:38 <Vorpal> ais523, kiiind of outdated these days
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00:13:44 <ais523> literally, I got a book out of the library that covered mostly DOS 1 and DOS 2
00:13:46 <int-e> why would that reboot the system?
00:13:47 <ais523> with some mentiones of DOS 3
00:13:52 <kmc> Taneb: yes, computing using only the MMU as it handles a never-ending double fault
00:14:06 <kmc> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/Fahrplan/events/5265.en.html
00:14:09 <ais523> int-e: it was an awful hack, basically they needed a way to restart the processor to be able to get back into real mode
00:14:30 <ais523> so they connected one of the address lines to the keyboard controller, which was connected in turn to the reset input of the processor
00:14:53 <int-e> ais523: the keyboard controller did that. the a20 line is a hack to make the system actually wrap around memory above 1MB, to be 8086 compatible.
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00:15:05 <kmc> right, it's not for rebooting
00:15:16 <Vorpal> ais523, I remember looking in an old computer book, that said that the newly released Pentium series was mostly for high end workstations and would never have a mass market appeal
00:15:19 <ais523> int-e: I suddenly realised I was muddling two things together
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00:15:36 <Vorpal> Or it might have been a magazine, not 100% sure
00:16:01 <kmc> there was a thing where Windows would trigger a triple fault to reset the CPU because it was the fastest way to get back to real mode
00:16:18 <ais523> kmc: because it less insane than asking the keyboard controller, also a lot faster
00:16:20 <kmc> you can reset the CPU without clearing memory or other platform state
00:16:43 <ais523> Linux still uses triple faults as a last-ditch attempt to reboot
00:16:50 <ais523> which it causes via setting the interrupt vector size to 0
00:17:00 <ais523> it only does that if the CPU's still running after all other attempts have failed
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00:17:07 <kmc> related: https://twitter.com/horse_unix/status/407426257010163712
00:17:16 <ais523> it's like that awkward bit of a program that comes just after you tried to run exec
00:17:20 <myname> fizzie: http://kevan.org/rubicon/
00:17:31 <shachaf> kmc: still waiting for zzo38_ebooks :'(
00:17:31 <fizzie> A20 line enable/disable did go through the keyboard controller too, though.
00:17:46 <ais523> fizzie: right, maybe that's what confused me
00:18:00 <ais523> also, one of the platforms I'm used to is PIC microcontrollers
00:18:09 <ais523> and people do things like connecting GPIO pins to the reset line all the time on that platform
00:18:09 <int-e> zzo38: is that backwards sokoban a real thing? google turns up people playing sokoban in reverse (pulling boxes), so it seems hard to find.
00:18:16 <kmc> ais523: heh, yeah
00:18:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I learned on the 16F series, but I used others too
00:18:24 <fizzie> myname: I don't know why I didn't think of Rubicon.
00:18:26 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know.
00:18:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I coded a bit for PIC12F<something I forgot>. It was terribly limited
00:18:32 <kmc> "Holy frick, I woke up again! Ha ha looks like those fuckers owe me five bucks"
00:18:38 <ais523> yeah, 12F is mindbogglingly limited
00:18:52 <myname> fizzie: i would really appreciate an android port of it
00:18:57 <Vorpal> ais523, If I have to do that level of embedded programming I prefer a decent AVR instead
00:19:05 <kmc> I liked the hack where you use a microcontroller to run the boost converter for its own power supply
00:19:11 <int-e> ais523: Oh, I should be asking you that question.
00:19:16 <Vorpal> But really I avoid that low level coding these days. ARM with some GPIO yay
00:19:17 <ais523> sometimes you have eight pins on the controller, and you can gain control over six of them somehow
00:19:19 <kmc> you have to press a button rapidly to get it to boot
00:19:22 <kmc> like starting a lawnmower
00:19:32 <ais523> int-e: yeah, download Enigma and search for "Nabokos"
00:19:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I coded for one with 8 yes, two were for power, leaving 6 indeed
00:19:56 <ais523> int-e: it is very difficult, though
00:20:11 <ais523> there's an easy mode that's a little easier
00:20:25 <ais523> interestingly, the easy mode has two fundamentally distinct solutions, but I've entirely forgotten one of them
00:20:26 <Vorpal> ais523, which one is "Nabokos"?
00:20:37 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a search button on the level pack screen
00:20:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't even have enigma installed atm
00:20:42 <ais523> you can search in there
00:20:51 <ais523> or just search for "Alex Smith" for all of mine
00:21:02 <Vorpal> ais523, and I'm on an android device with an external bluetooth keyboard
00:21:15 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the reverse Sokoban level
00:21:23 <ais523> where it makes you give it a Sokoban, then it solves it
00:21:25 <Vorpal> Hm, don't think I played that
00:21:31 <ais523> and you win the level if it's sufficiently difficult
00:21:48 <Vorpal> Not the kind of level I would enjoy
00:22:25 <ais523> it's possibly the second hardest of mine
00:22:40 <ais523> (the hardest is "Choices, choices ...", complete with spaces before sentence-ending punctuation marks)
00:22:58 <Vorpal> Is there a reason I'm missing out on
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00:23:23 <Vorpal> ais523, also what is the choices one about
00:23:35 <ais523> Vorpal: the spaces have become a #esoteric/Enigma in-joke
00:23:41 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
00:23:51 <ais523> (note: that line never actually appeared in the original
00:24:04 <ais523> because whenever you end a sentence with any punctuation mark other than a full stop
00:24:10 <ais523> some enterprising developer will go and add a space before it
00:24:27 <ais523> I don't know why, but it's become quite the joke at this point
00:24:39 <Vorpal> Ah, so you don't get the point of it either
00:24:47 <ais523> anyway, there are many levels in Enigma that contain loads and loads of different puzzles and are really long
00:25:00 <int-e> there is three points to it by my count.
00:25:01 <ais523> and that tend to get really high ratings for no obvious reason, and are often #100 in a level pack
00:25:10 <Vorpal> ais523, I found the quality of the levels varied considerably
00:25:11 <zzo38> The axiom schema of sokocan is when all cells (ignoring walls) are either a player, empty, or box-on-target.
00:25:27 <ais523> I decided that even though I hate that style of level, I'd try to make one, and try to make it good
00:25:46 <ais523> e.g. the puzzles that you can fail via dexterity mistakes are front-loaded, and there's an easy mode that lets you do them out of order
00:25:51 <ais523> and there's a framing puzzle around them all
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00:26:07 <ais523> in that each of the puzzles has two solutions, and only one of them will allow you to complete the level as a whole
00:26:11 <ais523> but the level also has perfect information
00:26:19 <ais523> at any time, you can switch to the white ball and use it to move the camera around
00:26:38 <Vorpal> That sounds quite annoying
00:26:46 <ais523> and if anything isn't obvious by looking at it, I left a document explaining
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00:27:50 <ais523> anyway, I still don't like that style of level, I prefer the one-screeners
00:28:07 <ais523> but it's my favourite of that style, because I designed it to appeal to me
00:28:20 <ais523> it also has a bunch of features that are recognisably ais523, most of which would be spoilers
00:31:08 <Vorpal> I haven't played enigma in years
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00:37:01 <int-e> hmm. what's the point of batteries?
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00:39:17 <ais523> int-e: a nice convenient method of storing electrical energy?
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00:39:51 <ais523> (sorry it took me a while to answer, I needed to make sure I picked the right physical quantity, I was about to say "power" but didn't want to be inaccurate)
00:40:55 <int-e> An awful question, I know. Why do I get two batteries in the nabokoS level?
00:41:10 <ais523> int-e: you get two batteries in every Enigma level
00:41:18 <ais523> unless they're specifically removed to prevent shortcuts
00:41:23 <ais523> this is because sometimes you're meant to use them in creative ways
00:41:44 <ais523> and if they were included only in levels where they were actually useful, it'd spoil the secret of those levels
00:42:03 <ais523> anyway, it's an Enigma level design rule to give two batteries without a really good reason not to
00:42:16 <ais523> even though like half the levels have a flag set so that they don't actually do anything
00:42:25 <ais523> (I requested that they be greyed out in that case, but nobody's implemented it yet)
00:42:37 <ais523> btw, in some of the levels where they don't actually do anything, they're still useful
00:42:46 <ais523> Enigma has a lot of corner cases like that
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00:47:09 <ais523> int-e: incidentally, one completely pointless but amusing thing you can do with the batteries in Nabokos is to give them to the white marble
00:52:26 <zzo38> How is it useful if it doesn't do anything?
00:54:25 <ais523> zzo38: sometimes you can exploit the fact that it doesn't do anything
00:54:32 <ais523> via using to occupy space that would otherwise be doing something
00:54:54 <ais523> one item in Enigma, the cup of coffee, explicitly never does anything, but it is nonetheless very useful for that property sometimes
00:55:17 <zzo38> O, so it occupies space.
00:56:37 <zzo38> So it still does *that* thing.
00:56:38 <ais523> but it doesn't have any use beyond being an item
00:56:49 <ais523> like, it doesn't have any properties except those properties that are common to all items
00:57:11 <zzo38> Yes, that could be useful.
00:57:35 <ais523> Enigma physics can get very crazy sometimes
00:57:40 <ais523> each level has a "Knowledge" rating
00:57:57 <ais523> if it's 5 (no more, no less), that means that you need to exploit some corner case of the engine in order to complete the level
00:58:02 <ais523> (6 means it doesn't follow the normal game physics)
00:58:13 <ais523> (like the brainfuck level, or the Tetris level)
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01:09:04 <ais523> sometimes I try to design interesting levels with low knowledge ratings, it's hard
01:09:13 <ais523> the joy of that game for me is trying to fit things into the game engine
01:09:16 <ais523> sort-of like esoprogramming
01:11:59 <zzo38> I think I have played it but I prefer the kind of puzzle game like Hero Hearts with all kind of new pieces added; I have figured out everything about how the game engine works, but there are some limitations and some problems, and I could some time make up a clone of it which is Free software.
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01:14:24 <Gregor> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/nibackup // Today's lesson: If at first you don't succeed, roll, roll your own.
01:15:39 <ais523> I did make a level out of nothing but solid walls, destroyable walls, abyss, and dynamite once
01:15:51 <ais523> especially because there's a lot you can do with it
01:16:11 <ais523> but it was broken because someone found a better solution than the intended one, which throws off the rest of the level
01:19:07 <ais523> and it's not in the release version, probably partly for that reason
01:21:17 * pikhq has fallen in love with this monitor
01:22:08 <kmc> what kind?
01:23:07 <kmc> dell makes a damn fine monitor
01:23:13 <pikhq> 27", 2560x1440, has quite good color fidelity.
01:23:30 <pikhq> Also impressive, darned thing comes from the factory with a proper calibration done.
01:24:00 <pikhq> Just had to flip the thing over to sRGB, and voila.
01:24:06 <kmc> oh neat, I know they did that for the older U3011
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01:24:21 * kmc owned one of those
01:24:47 <pikhq> (well, it actually has larger gamut than that, but I'm not going to try doing Adobe RGB out on X11)
01:25:13 <kmc> sRGB gamut is pretty small :/
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01:25:40 <pikhq> Yes, but it's a royal pain getting better output from your software.
01:26:04 <pikhq> I'd rather display sRGB right than display sRGB samples as Adobe RGB most of the time.
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01:57:23 <ais523> ooh, Gregor got libdl.so after all
01:57:40 <Gregor> Yeah, I had libdl.so from the beginning.
02:01:04 <ais523> to be fair, I'm not convinced libc.so was worth the amount it eventually went for
02:02:07 <Gregor> libc.so is worth ALL the money.
02:02:16 <Gregor> Also, the guy who bought it won't respond to my emails :'(
02:02:51 <ais523> for a moment I wondered who it was
02:03:10 <ais523> and then I realised that "webmaster@libc.so" works, if there's a web server there and they're following the standard
02:03:47 <ais523> hmm, although it seems that the most common address for me to receive spams at my server is support@
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02:04:11 <ais523> oh, there's also the one email from sudo
02:04:22 <Gregor> .so has a working WHOIS service.
02:04:28 <ais523> the "this incident will be reported" thing is even more surreal when you subsequently get the report
02:04:46 <Gregor> It actually IS reported?
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02:05:01 <Gregor> Maybe I should check root's spool...
02:05:24 <ais523> I think I set nethack4.org up so that I get root's email
02:05:28 <ais523> but yeah, I was shocked
02:06:01 <ais523> I didn't really expect an email to actually arrive
02:08:34 <zzo38> It is reported but I think there is a command-line switch to tell sudo not to report it
02:17:10 <ais523> I had a vaguely silly problem today, with an even sillier solution
02:17:36 <ais523> the problem: I have installed a setgid executable, and suspect it has a permissions problem (my suspicion eventually turned out correct)
02:17:57 <ais523> I want to debug it, but I can't debug it as user:group me because I don't have the perms, and I can't debug it as root because then it works
02:18:10 <ais523> thus, I need to keep the same user, but change my group to one that I'm not a member of
02:18:24 <ais523> anyone realise why the solution is silly yet?
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02:21:32 <ais523> OK, so the problem is, as ais523, I don't have the perms to change my group to a group I'm not in
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02:21:55 <ais523> as root, I can change my group to whatever I want, but most permissions-dropping commands (such as su) also reset my group as well
02:22:08 <ais523> thus, I need a command than can set my user and group simultaneously
02:22:13 <ais523> and the only one I had handy was sudo
02:22:31 <ais523> but, if I attempt to use sudo to change to a user other than root, it complains that I'm not allowed to do that (because it's only configured to let me become root)
02:22:40 <ais523> conclusion: run sudo /using sudo/
02:23:04 <ais523> this is the first time in my life I've had a legitimate reason to start a command "sudo sudo", although ofc you can stack it effectively indefinitely if you feel like it
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02:24:01 <ais523> although I'd disabled the sudo reports on my local computer, so instead of "THIS INCIDENT WILL BE REPORTED" it just said "Sorry"
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02:56:47 <Bike> What's a Trusted Platform Model
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03:03:58 <int-e> model? not module? hmm.
03:04:37 <Bike> oops i meant module.
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03:12:34 <int-e> it's a piece of hardware that does cryptography, stores keys, and may verify a boot sequence. "trusted" means that while it is running on your insecure PC, entities like Microsoft or Hollywood can still trust it. Wikipedia knows a bit more.
03:13:50 <zzo38> Well, whoever programmed it can trust it, I suppose. If you don't have the latest version of Windows on your computer, it might not be programmed at all, and do nothing.
03:14:12 <zzo38> If you do, then it is belonging to Microsoft and Hollywood, and so on.
03:14:18 <Bike> huh. weird. i have also found out from my PC construction odyssey that there is a possiblity of attaching a chassis opening detection wire.
03:15:14 <zzo38> Yes, some computers have that, and will log it in the BIOS in such a case.
03:17:26 <int-e> cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_System
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03:25:02 <Jafet> Chassis intrusion sensors are standard for servers.
03:30:24 <myname> oh dear, people on c3 doesn't know befunge
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04:00:42 <pikhq> Linux also supports TPMs.
04:01:09 <pikhq> It is at least *possible* to run a system wherein you yourself are doing the verification.
04:02:22 <zzo38> And there is TPM emulator, too.
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05:17:54 <zzo38> My internet connection stopped working for some reason, but it works now.
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05:30:19 <Sgeo_> I don't know if it's safe to take a cab in a blizzard
05:31:12 <kmc> zzo38: do you know the reason?
05:32:06 <kmc> int-e: the bits most useful for orwellian hollywood nonsense are not as widely implemented
05:32:10 <kmc> namely remote attestation
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05:40:15 <zzo38> kmc: No, I don't know the reason, sorry.
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05:46:59 <fizzie> ais523: postmaster@example.com is *the* standard, if the domain has a SMTP service -- and if it doesn't, you obviously can't send email at all -- this webmaster@ is just some newfangled "HTTP" nonsense.
05:47:19 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I was thinking "or you could just contact the email admin if they have email"
05:47:26 <ais523> and somehow didn't realise you couldn't send an email if they didn't
05:48:06 <fizzie> (PSOTMASTER, HOSTMASTER, USENET, NEWS (synonym for USENET), WEBMASTER, WWW (synonym for WEBMASTER), UUCP and FTP are the mailbox names RFC2142 defines.)
05:49:23 <fizzie> Not exactly PSOTMASTER, obviously.
05:50:20 <fizzie> It also defines info@, marketing@, sales@ and support@ for "business-related mailbox names", and abuse@, noc@ and security@ for "network operations mailbox names".
05:50:32 <fizzie> I think zem.fi gets most spam at the "webmaster" address.
05:50:46 <ais523> nethack4.org gets pretty much all its spam at support@
05:51:04 <fizzie> Possibly it the webmaster address was in some autogenerated Apache page and was crawled from there.
05:51:39 <zzo38> I have been asked on here about Sirlin's Chess 2 before. You can read a lot of comments (including my own) on: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?itemid=Chess2
05:51:44 <fizzie> I also get some amount of spam for "rfk86", because that was on the page.
05:51:54 <fizzie> (I don't think I've ever gotten a legitimate email to that address.)
05:55:01 <Jafet> wishmaster@example.com
05:55:18 <fizzie> fishmaster@example.com
05:55:32 <ais523> fizzie: is that an x86 version of robotfindskitten?
05:55:45 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's a TI-86 version.
05:57:56 <fizzie> ("Hamster / a dentist / hard porn / Steven Seagull / warrior / this rifle / in me / the fishmaster," go the lyrics of Fishmaster.)
05:59:50 <ais523> fizzie: are there enough of them to feed them into fungot?
05:59:50 <fungot> ais523: srbt yow! i'm unemployed!
06:02:05 <fizzie> Not really. (There aren't that many lyrics in Wishmaster, either.)
06:02:07 <Jafet> If you want fungot to make less sense, you should use the original lyrics
06:02:07 <fungot> Jafet: because it's cool, isn't it?
06:02:17 <fizzie> Though it would be possible to make a song lyrics style, I guess.
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06:02:44 <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:03:11 <fizzie> I actually have somewhere a language model for song lyrics I got from Tampere University of Technology folks. Plus something I trained on a smallish-but-available database.
06:03:43 <kmc> Chess: still playable
06:03:54 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:03:58 <HackEgo> 1155) <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
06:04:23 <fizzie> (Song lyric databases generally don't provide download options, presumably for copyright reasons. From what I recall, LyricWiki doesn't either. (Does any Wikia wiki, really?))
06:04:40 <zzo38> Chess variants are still very interesting though, so you can play those games too, please.
06:05:09 <Jafet> Wikia being evil doesn't help
06:05:24 <fizzie> Jafet: They're also all so horrible website-wise, I don't really want to crawl them. (Though I guess e.g. the mldb.org interface is not all that bad.)
06:06:30 <Jafet> Some music players implement this lyrics-grabbing protocol
06:07:17 <zzo38> However, my TeX chess program doesn't currently implement some of the features needed for Chess 2, but hopefully that can be fixed.
06:07:41 <Jafet> Well, by that I mean rhythmbox has this plugin that grabs lyrics from some unspecified online service
06:07:50 <fizzie> I don't think MusicBrainz does lyrics, sadly.
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06:10:16 <fizzie> LyricWiki has a SOAP/REST API, but "due to licensing restrictions, the API can only directly return a small portion of the lyrics directly - which is useful for determining if you have a correct match. All responses also contain a URL to a corresponding page with the full lyrics."
06:10:58 <fizzie> (It used to return the full lyrics, but they had to change that.)
06:11:10 <fizzie> "We can't get a license to distribute lyrics for free via an API, however we do have a license to display lyrics on a web-page as long as the web-page has javascript enabled so that we can track which songs are being viewed (for distributing royalties) and have an ad on them so that a percentage of the money can be paid as licensing fees."
06:12:28 <fizzie> "Have you ever wanted to run a lyric website or a lyrics app for a mobile device but wondered where you could get good quality lyric data from? Congratulations you have found one of the largest databases of lyrics available on the web! This database is in MySQL format and contains half a million songs that you can use on your own lyric site." For only $24.99!
06:13:13 <fizzie> "This is a brand new lyric database collated from a number of sources." Somehow I am not really sure all those sources make their stuff available for free for commercial use.
06:14:08 <Jafet> (What is a ᵀᴇˣ chess program?)
06:16:39 <kmc> wow! unicode ᵀᴇˣ
06:17:03 <kmc> I have some CSS to do it but I hadn't seen it in "plain text" before
06:18:04 <kmc> speaking of MySQL, https://twitter.com/alex_gaynor/status/418892674309967872
06:33:48 <fizzie> Can you build MySQL on musl?
06:35:55 <fizzie> Something called "µSQL" probably exists.
06:43:05 <zzo38> TeX chess program is a program to read algebraic chess notation and generate diagrams from them, as well as to format the moves, and to play many chess variants, too.
06:47:56 <zzo38> I don't know what SQL programs you prefer but I use SQLite
06:53:51 <quintopia> kmc: i'm on my phone. what are the unicode chars in front of chess above?
06:54:27 <Bike> "tex" but with the heightshit
06:55:31 <quintopia> zzo38: oh you are adding Chess 2 to TeX chess?
06:56:04 <quintopia> are there any other chess variants with the bidding mechanic?
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07:02:52 <ais523> I said hi before they left this time!
07:03:00 <Bike> not on my screen!
07:05:08 <ais523> I thought that might be the problem :-(
07:05:22 <Bike> good effort though
07:07:27 <Slereah> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/Jackals2.jpg
07:07:38 <Slereah> I should take more jackal pix
07:08:03 <Slereah> The holidays went away too quickly
07:08:22 <Slereah> Between the family christmas and new year with friends, I barely had any time to do shit
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07:11:14 <kmc> shachaf: http://xkcd.com/1312/
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07:11:44 <kmc> `unidecode ᵀᴇˣ -- quintopia
07:11:45 <HackEgo> [U+1D40 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL T] [U+1D07 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL E] [U+02E3 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL X] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0071 LATIN SMALL LETTER Q] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+006F LATIN SMA
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07:13:11 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know, but there are others involving hidden information in various ways.
07:13:45 <quintopia> zzo38: do you play regular normal deck card games?
07:14:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, I do play that too.
07:15:01 <zzo38> I know several card games using the standard 52-card deck or some subset.
07:15:32 <Bike> Any good at Canasta?
07:15:40 <zzo38> Is that the game also known as "I Doubt It"? I do know how to play, and a few variants. I don't play often though.
07:16:00 <zzo38> I know how to play Canasta too, but I don't play much; I don't think I am particularly good at it.
07:18:43 <quintopia> zzo38: i had an idea for a variant, but maybe it exists. the idea would be to deal some of the cards to no player face down, and let people optionally draw and discard at turn start, also optionally discard and draw 1/4 of the cards they pick up as penalties.
07:19:03 <zzo38> That is an idea, at least.
07:19:04 <quintopia> plus there's two decks with 4 wild jokers
07:19:15 <quintopia> so it's hard to keep track of who could have what
07:19:16 <kmc> Slereah: why does your flat have a Big Red Button next to the door
07:19:22 <kmc> @localtime Slereah
07:19:23 <lambdabot> Local time for Slereah is Fri Jan 03 08:19:17 2014
07:20:09 <zzo38> Sirlin also invented the game Pandante (not yet for sale, although you can download the rules and perhaps make up your own), which is like poker but involving lying; you can accuse another player of lying, similar to how you can in I Doubt It.
07:20:15 * kmc tries to identify the country from the Europlug grounding variant in use
07:20:39 <kmc> zzo38: poker involves a lot of lying too, isn't it?
07:20:51 <ais523> kmc: it's bluffing, not lying
07:21:01 <ais523> because nothing you say that has a game effect has a truth value
07:21:11 <ais523> bluffing's when you bet a large amount despite having a bad hand
07:21:19 <ais523> in the hope that other people will think you have a good hand and not take the bet
07:21:23 <kmc> you can also just say you have a good hand
07:21:26 <kmc> but i guess people don't
07:21:30 <kmc> because it would be silly
07:21:59 <kmc> "is betting a speech act"
07:22:11 <kmc> perhaps after Citizens United
07:22:44 <zzo38> Yes, it is bluffing, not lying; it is different in that way.
07:23:14 <zzo38> In Pandante, if you claim to have a flush, and then nobody accuses you of lying, then it counts as a flush regardless of what cards you actually hold.
07:24:20 <kmc> Slereah: do you have an answer to that question a lot, too?
07:25:08 <kmc> also that is impressively many jackals
07:25:19 <kmc> do you have a copy of The Day of the Jackal too
07:25:35 <Bike> where does that book keep coming from
07:25:52 <kmc> "You need a Day of the Jackal-type motherfucker, basically, to do some shit like that."
07:28:06 <Bike> where's thath quote from
07:30:22 <kmc> niba rkcynvavat jul fyvz puneyrf vfa'g hc gb gur gnfx bs nffnffvangvat fgngr frangbe pynl qnivf
07:30:31 <kmc> (spoilers)
07:35:30 <kmc> http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/2/5266258/kanye-west-themed-bitcoin-clone-said-to-launch-this-month-coinye
07:36:35 <ais523> why are people linking that story
07:36:40 <ais523> it isn't even interesting
07:36:44 <kmc> it's absurd
07:41:55 <kmc> http://coinmarketcap.com/ -__-
07:42:04 <kmc> Sexcoin, Deutsche eMark, FedoraCoin, HoboNickels
07:42:40 <Bike> can we be done with the internet now
07:43:09 <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin
07:43:20 <kmc> such shame, very failure
07:44:13 <Bike> oh jesus "asiccoin" uses that shitty anarchy logo
07:46:28 <kmc> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric currency design and deployment!
07:46:57 <Bike> hey, that could actually be fun. what makes a currency esoteric? not in the "nobody uses it" sense, of course.
07:47:13 <kmc> weird proof of work function based on an esolang?
07:47:15 <Bike> changing values rapidly is too pedestrian...
07:47:32 <kmc> also bitcoin already contains a mini language for describing transactions
07:47:36 <kmc> could just make that more eso
07:48:06 <ais523> actually, I had a bitcoin-related eso idea
07:48:17 <ais523> which is to encode a non-bitcoin currency into the bitcoin blockchain
07:48:58 <ais523> like, rule that only transactions less than 1mBTC count, and only if they have an even floating-point exponent (so you can easily split a transaction in two to toggle whether it counts)
07:57:07 <zzo38> The rule in Sirlin's Chess 2 where a defender bidding against an attacker with zero stones must bid one seems useless to me. He wouldn't ever *want* to bid any other amount. Ties go to the attacker, having stones isn't a disadvantage, turns aren't lost due to dueling, if 0-0 the attacker can make the defender lose a stone, and nothing changes!
08:06:10 <quintopia> zzo38: it isn't really a rule, just a pointing out of a consequence
08:06:50 <quintopia> it makes it easier to implement in software to have it explicitly stated like that
08:06:53 <ais523> in tournament backgammon you can't use the doubling cube at 5-6
08:07:03 <ais523> because otherwise the player on 5 always would
08:08:49 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it can be done automatically in a computer program.
08:11:29 <zzo38> ais523: You are correct about that, and I think that is called Crawford rule. Such rule can be used in other games too if you are including a doubling cube rule (I thought of using it in Pokemon, even).
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08:30:31 <zzo38> Another variant of doubling cube, which I do not see mentioned in the article about backgammon (probably because it doesn't apply to backgammon, in which ties and draws aren't possible), would be in case of a tie or draw, the stakes are doubled (rather than reset), and then the cube is centered again. Such a rule can be used with or without the offering doubling cube.
08:41:13 <zzo38> I think the first time someone shown me how to play backgammon game, it was Turkish backgammon, although she didn't call it that, and she isn't Turkish anyways.
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12:20:53 <nortti> ``Why knock Haskell for being lazy? That was uncalled for! ''
12:20:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `Why: not found
12:28:05 <nortti> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2013/01/09/cvs-and-file-extensions/
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12:45:03 <fizzie> Huh; first time I've seen a freenode channel on the wall in an art museum. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-irc1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-irc2.jpg
12:47:19 <Taneb> I saw something like that at the Science Museum in London
12:49:09 <fizzie> I've been in some sort of "science museum" in London once, wonder if it was the same place.
12:49:15 <fizzie> That was back in 2001 or so, though.
12:49:54 <fizzie> There might've been IRC-based chats elsewhere, but I don't recall seeing anything in freenode.
12:50:41 <oerjan> nortti: darn i assumed that was CVS
12:50:43 <Taneb> There's the Natural History museum, which is the big one
12:50:54 <Taneb> And then there's the Science Museum, which is smaller and right next door
12:57:33 <fizzie> I think this was in the general neighbourhood of Hyde Park.
12:57:58 <fizzie> I guess it's that Science Museum / Natural History Museum complex, then.
12:58:14 <fizzie> I recall it wasn't very big.
12:59:17 <Taneb> May have been the Science Museum
12:59:26 <Taneb> Natural History museum is muuuuuuuuch bigger
12:59:44 <Taneb> And the British museum (history and anthropology, iirc) is MUUUUUUUUCH bigger
13:00:09 <fizzie> Also it's kind of a de-facto standard stop, I guess.
13:00:24 <Taneb> In the science museum you went to, was there a blue whale attached to the ceiling
13:02:03 <fizzie> I can't remember, and I can't locate any photos either. (Maybe it was a pre-ubiquitous-digital-cameras thing.)
13:03:01 <fizzie> I'm sure the exhibitions have changed somewhat in the last decade or so.
13:03:14 <nortti> fizzie: where exactly is the ##2048 displayed?
13:03:33 <fizzie> nortti: It's in Kiasma, there's an exhibition about Erkki Kurenniemi.
13:04:24 <fizzie> I haven't seen anything especially interesting on-channel, just that bot stating out which track is playing on the radio.
13:04:53 <fizzie> The radio being the one at http://kurenniemi.activearchives.org/dataradio/
13:05:05 <fizzie> I guess the chat sidebar there is what's connected to the channel.
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13:06:33 <fizzie> Built on Kiwi IRC, I see.
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13:16:23 <fizzie> Also from the exhibition: there was a room with a dozen or so monitors displaying movies; each was driven by a Raspberry Pi: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-pi1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140103-pi2.jpg
13:16:31 <fizzie> Turns out they're not useless after all!
13:23:35 <fizzie> Finally, there was a robotic head-on-wheels that had a speech synthesizer that wandered around and randomly said "rauhaa, rauhaa, joulu on jo ovella" and "jumalauta, mulla on outo olo", plus "voi ihmisen pieru" on bumping into anything. (If you can't tell, it's a modern art museum.)
13:25:14 <HackEgo> [U+1D40 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL T] [U+1D07 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL E] [U+02E3 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL X]
13:27:10 <fizzie> I'm guessing that should really be a MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL X, except it doesn't exist.
13:27:41 <fizzie> Or perhaps even more optimally just regular T and X, and some kind of dropped E.
13:51:12 <nortti> http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/d/de/ChickCthulhu.gif
13:51:29 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin <kmc> such shame, very failure
13:51:34 <HackEgo> 1156) <Bike> i wonder how it feels to develop a cryptocurrency which is subsequently behind dogecoin <kmc> such shame, very failure
13:55:17 <fizzie> The baseline of the small capital E is kind of wrong.
13:56:22 <Sgeo_> I get to work from home today
13:56:34 <mauke> I get to not work from home today
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13:58:58 <fizzie> I get to not work today.
13:59:18 <fizzie> Perhaps someone gets home today.
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13:59:46 <Taneb> I get not home on Sunday
14:00:03 <boily> good piñata tractor beam morning!
14:00:18 <boily> Taneb: I get partially home on Sunday.
14:00:37 <Taneb> Man, I'm looking forward to Sunday
14:01:03 <Taneb> York was the first place I've lived that wasn't Hexham this side of 2000
14:01:10 * oerjan is starting to wonder where boily's mornings are coming from, anyway.
14:01:53 <oerjan> maybe from the same place as nortti's link.
14:05:19 <HackEgo> danddreclist 48: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
14:05:49 <boily> oerjan: we were playing Ghost Stories yesterday night and discussing some strategies.
14:06:41 <boily> zzo38: ! I can't find file `dungeonsrecording'.
14:06:55 <zzo38> boily: Download it from the same directory.
14:07:01 <boily> nortti: you have nice links.
14:08:12 <zzo38> A precompiled DVI is also available, in case you want to use that (no unusual fonts are needed).
14:08:43 <boily> good points: you specify the number of eyes.
14:08:48 <boily> bad points: no unusual fonts.
14:09:08 <zzo38> That's because I have had no use for any unusual fonts (yet).
14:09:37 <Taneb> In my first D&D session, my character ended up with a magical tattoo on his chest
14:09:46 <zzo38> Taneb: What kind of magical tattoo?
14:09:59 <Taneb> zzo38, it's an eye, and I can't tell you more than that yet
14:10:03 <Taneb> Because I don't know more than that
14:10:22 <Taneb> But there's a nasty crow lady after me because of it
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14:24:20 <nortti> oerjan: I doubt it, because that is from my todo list
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14:49:40 <nortti> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2013/03/03/the-controller-pattern-is-awful-and-other-oo-heresy/
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15:00:38 <boily> I say, all patterns are evil.
15:00:54 <mauke> all language is patterns
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15:01:40 <oerjan> clearly both boily and mauke are correct.
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15:54:26 <nortti> http://science.slashdot.org/story/14/01/02/2247214/dogs-defecate-in-alignment-with-earths-magnetic-field
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15:56:19 <boily> @tell oerjan *mapole smack*
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16:12:32 <FireFly> http://serverfault.com/questions/293217/our-security-auditor-is-an-idiot-how-do-i-give-him-the-information-he-wants this is comedy gold
16:18:43 <boily> uhm. plaintext passwords, private SSH keys, everything in the hands of a bozo?
16:33:35 <int-e> I'm not sure which scares me more ... the idea of handing all that information to somebody calling themselves security auditor, or the apparently genuine interest in complying with such a request.
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16:39:05 <boily> LinearInterpol: try CtrlR-Shift-U.
16:40:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:42:07 <boily> mauke is a Master Archer, with all kinds of tricky arrows.
16:42:16 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=up
16:42:37 <boily> `learn mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
16:51:24 <mroman> Is there an option for ghc to just produce strict code?
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17:39:20 <mauke> #define shortjmp return
17:41:09 <int-e> nabokoS was nasty ... of course the required number of pushes is optimal and the "hard" version has a unique solution up to symmetry.
17:41:19 <int-e> I wouldn't call 'return' a jump.
17:41:48 <mauke> then what is longjmp?
17:41:51 <int-e> though I guess "longjump" isn't much of a jump either.
17:42:03 <mauke> also, it's obviously a jmp, not a jump
17:42:30 <boily> int-e: you speak like fungot.
17:42:30 <fungot> boily: you don't know a lot of it can be ( make-circle-str 250 ' blue)
17:42:33 <int-e> no "u". I'm not using it very often.
17:43:15 <boily> int-e is the new incarnation of fungot! zzo38 is an impostor!
17:43:16 <fungot> boily: such as fnord' rather than fnord data, maybe specify it in a minute i'll see whether i need inheritance or not in css) " give me the message now.
17:43:29 * boily thwacks int-e because of the bad pun.
17:44:13 <int-e> boily: "nabokoS" is ais523's enigma level that asks you to build a sokoban level.
17:44:43 * boily is conflagratedly puzzled...
17:46:48 <int-e> And I call it "nasty" because I had to write a computer program in order to solve it.
17:47:22 <boily> can I get a link to the enigmais523?
17:47:57 <int-e> http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
17:49:14 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
17:49:24 <int-e> There is one level in there called "Nabokos", which was created by ais523.
17:59:59 <ter2> wait, ais523 made nabokos?
18:01:14 <ter2> i like enigma quite a bit and especially that one
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18:31:38 <kmc> shachaf: i sent you the xkcd link in the same spirit as you pasting me terrible things from #haskell
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18:44:16 <int-e> meh, but Enigma is a lousy interface for Sokoban levels.
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18:58:27 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2012/07/30/binary-search-is-a-pathological-case-for-caches/
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19:02:15 <Bike> «#define BARRIER do { __asm__ volatile("" ::: "memory"); } while (0)» ah yes
19:03:52 <mroman> gcc has builtins for that
19:03:54 <Bike> "I’ve seen horrible implementations of tr1::hash for unsigned values in (it’s the identity function on my mac)" heh
19:05:20 <kmc> shachaf: no
19:07:01 <mroman> at least it's collision free
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19:20:56 <nooodl> LinearInterpol: i played the heck out of that as a kid
19:21:46 <fizzie> Hey, that looks pretty familiar.
19:22:55 -!- FreeFull has joined.
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19:37:22 <LinearInterpol> i'm so confused right now what is happening to my brain.
19:40:15 <boily> this thing uglifies in my eyeballs.
19:44:23 <olsner> hmm, burritos... is it about monads?
19:46:29 <boily> it's a traversal. (Burrito m, Taquito t) => forall a. m t a -> t m a.
19:48:57 <boily> apparently, there is such a thing as taco de ojo → http://www.burritoeater.com/tacodeojo.html
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19:52:02 <boily> olsner: eye taco. even I am weirdede.
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19:55:01 <HackEgo> luce90: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:55:15 -!- luce90 has left.
19:55:37 <boily> another visitor scared away. *sigh*
19:55:46 <boily> also, anybody here who speaks Italian?
19:56:19 <mauke> I only know "ciao a tutti" and "!list"
20:00:17 <boily> kmc: sorry for autotabbing you.
20:00:38 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:00:47 <mauke> preflex: karma chameleon
20:03:40 <mauke> http://lists.cairographics.org/archives/cairo/2013-December/024858.html
20:09:40 <olsner> nice, I've always wanted C++ to be even bigger
20:10:02 <boily> someday, C++ will be big enough to encompass Haskell!
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20:56:26 <boily> there, that should do it.
20:56:47 <mauke> (karma chameleon)++
20:56:52 <mauke> preflex: karma karma chameleon
20:56:58 <LinearInterpol> boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++ boily++
20:58:04 <fizzie> Huh, the first Carmageddon game looks a lot clunkier than what I remembered.
20:58:34 <mauke> preflex: karma boily
20:59:29 <quintopia> now i have lower karma than all of you!
20:59:54 <mauke> preflex: karma quintopia
21:00:10 <mauke> preflex: karma quintopia++
21:00:10 <boily> preflex: karma quintopia
21:00:42 <kmc> preflex: karma
21:01:40 * quintopia hides from the impending karma war of doom
21:02:34 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:36 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:38 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:40 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:42 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:44 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:46 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:48 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:50 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:52 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:54 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:56 <boily> quintopia++ LinearInterpol++ kmc++ mauke++ quintopia++
21:02:58 <boily> (yes, I know, something something flood something...)
21:04:11 <kmc> `unidecode ／
21:04:12 <HackEgo> [U+FF0F FULLWIDTH SOLIDUS]
21:04:26 <kmc> `unicode HEAVY BLACK HEART
21:04:33 <boily> `unicode ORANGE BOOK
21:04:36 <FireFly> `unicode HEAVY BLACK METAL
21:04:49 <kmc> `unicode KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT
21:05:14 <boily> ORANGE BOOK is a real legit unicode char.
21:05:17 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=red+apple
21:06:07 <boily> «bin torieux.» red apple too is a Real Unicode Far Away in the SMP Character.
21:06:20 <kmc> what about red lobster
21:06:22 <FireFly> There's also a GREEN APPLE
21:06:58 <FireFly> The reference pictures on file-formats.info show them in different greyscale shades
21:10:19 <boily> `unicode CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY
21:15:50 <FireFly> `unicode GLYPH FOR ISOLATE ARABIC HAMZAH UNDER LIGATURE LAM ALEF
21:16:27 <fizzie> There's both an old Unicode database and an inability to handle non-BMP characters in the Python of HackEgo.
21:17:33 <FireFly> Oh, apparently that is an old name
21:17:42 <FireFly> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE LAM WITH ALEF WITH HAMZA BELOW ISOLATED FORM
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21:34:31 <fizzie> Strange Enigma thing: when playing, xscreensaver does not think there is any mouse movement, and therefore activates after the usual delay.
21:35:06 <shachaf> kmc: <#haskell on that comic> If you can't laugh at it, you need to reevaluate the place that technological choices have in your life.
21:37:35 <kmc> i can't laugh at it because it's not funny
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21:38:09 <boily> olsner: today's xkcd.
21:38:21 <`^_^v> neither is any other xkcd
21:38:28 <`^_^v> this one just has more butthurt haskellers
21:38:53 <shachaf> it's a p. irritating attitude imo
21:39:14 <kmc> if i yell "haskell sucks!" and you don't laugh at my funny joke then you are too emotionally attached to haskell
21:39:44 <`^_^v> not exactly, but if you take offense to it you are too emotionally attached to haskell
21:40:01 <boily> I don't laugh at that joke. Haskell programmers don't laugh, as emotion is a side-effect.
21:40:29 <kmc> `^_^v: accusing people of 'taking offense' when they're expressing some other emotion is common and obnoxious
21:40:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
21:41:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v:: not found
21:41:17 <`^_^v> stop executing me bro
21:41:28 <mauke> get a nick that doesn't suck
21:41:28 <kmc> `^_^v: I didn't accuse you of accusing anyone!
21:41:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:41:55 -!- elliott has kicked `^_^v my patience for you has expired.
21:41:58 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:42:12 <boily> I am offended at people suggesting I take offense at people suggesting I accuse offensers who offense people by taking offense at suggesting offenses are what offense people taking offense at.
21:42:32 <olsner> boily: that's offensive!
21:43:24 <Taneb> Anyone know where I can buy typewriter ribbon?
21:43:45 <kmc> office supply store
21:43:50 <elliott> it's a pretty weird xkcd given that iirc xkcd.com has used haskell internally several times
21:44:08 <elliott> but I'm glad I'm not in #haskell right now!
21:44:11 <kmc> it's a really old and tired joke
21:44:17 <Taneb> I think it's pandering to its audience
21:44:26 <kmc> also based on a false strawman claim about haskell
21:44:40 <elliott> I'm pretty sure xkcd is just catering to the lowest common denominator half the time at this point
21:44:42 <kmc> elliott: as a friend I'm also glad you aren't in #haskell
21:44:47 <elliott> all the cheap gag strips feel like that now
21:44:59 <elliott> which, whatever, it helps the guy sell shirts and he does cool stuff on the side
21:45:04 <Taneb> I am in #haskell but like Phantom_Hoover knows I blot out things that annoy me
21:45:24 <kmc> I would wager good money that this strip sat in some rejects pile for a long time and he just couldn't come up with anything better today so was like fuck it.
21:45:36 <elliott> xkcd is heavily queued, IIRC
21:46:43 <kmc> I've mostly stopped complaining about xkcd because I think its reputation has fallen enough that it's not so bizarrely overrated anymore
21:47:42 <elliott> we should talk about typewriter ribbon or something instead of xkcd.
21:48:14 <boily> ribbons are good. my girlfriend has some nice ones.
21:48:33 <Taneb> I wonder if the on-campus store at York stocks them
21:51:32 <kmc> shachaf: you should leave #haskell
21:51:55 <fizzie> Some dot matrix printer ribbons are getting hard to find.
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21:53:33 <kmc> dot matrix printers are still common though
21:53:35 <boily> fizzie: dot-matrix printers use ribbons?
21:53:39 <kmc> but maybe particular ones aren't
21:53:51 <kmc> also maybe I mean "dot matrix printers were still common in 2003"... time makes fools of us all
21:53:54 <fizzie> boily: Some do, at least.
21:54:25 <fizzie> boily: http://www.amazon.com/Epson-ERC-30-34-38-Pack/dp/B00280C35A stuff like that.
21:54:35 <fizzie> Or http://www.amazon.com/Epson-Premium-Compatible-Black-Pack/dp/B002DN6YA2/ref=sr_1_3?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1388786039&sr=1-3 in two colors!
21:55:03 <fizzie> And yes, it's the non-popular models that are harder.
21:56:21 <fizzie> I had (maybe it's still in the basement) a Hyundai (I think) brand dot matrix printer that wasn't ribbon-compatible with anything major, and even 5-10 years ago when I was looking, a big office supply company managed to locate just three cartridges in some musty old warehouse.
21:57:29 <fizzie> Actually I think it was a lot like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Carriage-Dot-Matrix-printer-Hyundai-HDP-920-/251274316551 one, but perhaps not quite that one model.
21:57:52 <fizzie> "Hyundai HDP920 Compatible High Density Re-Inking Nylon Cassette Printer Ribbon" "This Item has now been Discontinued and is no Longer Available to Order"
21:59:11 <fizzie> http://ru.pc-history.com/wp-content/uploads/prn_hyundahdp-920.JPG yes that is amazingly close to what it looked/looks like.
21:59:20 <boily> sometimes, one happens to have an old incompatypewriter lying around. something that hasn't happened to me yet, but I fear will be bestowed upon me by an unknown stranger in a trenchcoat on Ste-Catherine.
21:59:44 <fizzie> I wonder where my typewriter is, also.
22:00:00 <fizzie> I wrote things with it when at the summer cottage.
22:00:08 <fizzie> (There wasn't all that much to do.)
22:00:25 <fizzie> It did do multiple colors, though.
22:00:33 <Taneb> I bought a typewriter from a charity shop the other day, completely impulsively
22:01:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CHICKEN RIBBON).
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22:01:47 <fizzie> http://prodano.by/media/images/post/315/3153457_0.jpg apparently it works fine in Windows 7 x64 SP1. If that's what the bit in Russian means.
22:01:47 <olsner> how hard is it to make your own ink ribbon out of like ribbon and ink?
22:04:59 <nooodl> fizzie: "PRINTING FROM WINDOWS 7 x64 SP1"
22:05:26 <fizzie> (What's the hammer-and-sickle for?)
22:05:47 <fizzie> (Perhaps it's a Party-approved printer.)
22:06:00 <nooodl> ending sentences is pretty ink-expensive in russian
22:06:57 <fizzie> Actually, it seems that HDP-920 is the A3 model. Mine was just A4; maybe it's the HDP-910 instead.
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22:16:31 <kmc> shachaf: is there a concise term for an idea which isn't that stupid but is very popular with clueless beginners who will do it wrong and so everyone hates this idea?
22:17:26 <shachaf> what are some examples other than otp
22:17:44 <kmc> probably a lot of things on the haskell faq
22:17:51 <kmc> like dynamic typing
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22:18:54 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 22m 34s ago: *mapole smack*
22:22:23 <mauke> fizzie: I think Perl fits better than PHP
22:31:56 <Sgeo> kmc: I once considered OO and static typing to be examples... sucky languages get them wrong and so they get derided
22:32:25 <Sgeo> Although I'm not sure what some 'right' ways to do OO are, there are probably better approaches than the mainstream
22:34:43 <kmc> definitely "wanting to do OO-ish things in Haskell" is an example
22:34:54 <kmc> beginners want it and are usually wrong, but there are some valid cases
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22:42:53 <Sgeo> And here's me posting about it a while ago even though the post doesn't actually add anything to this discussion: http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/45037477692/i-suspect-that-much-of-the-time-when-people-say
22:44:08 <fizzie> "A generic error has occurred." Well, that's helpful.
22:46:04 <Sgeo> Would 'unknown' be better?
22:46:53 <Sgeo> It's certainly better than pretending that the operation was successful
22:47:06 <Taneb> kmc, I'm heading towards an OO-ish API for this game library I'm writing in Haskell
22:48:28 <Sgeo> I think Tcl is a language quite likely to explore interesting corners of OO design space
22:48:38 <zzo38> What game library is that? And what kind of OO-ish API?
22:48:41 <Sgeo> There's XOTcl, which I don't know much about admittedly
22:48:54 <Sgeo> Although they seem to limit themselves to single-dispatch
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22:49:20 <Sgeo> Smalltalk, ironically, seems less likey. Its OO is built into its core, I imagine a bit tricky to just change
22:49:27 <Sgeo> LinearInterpol: are you pikhq?
22:50:17 <Sgeo> I'm kind of done with Tcl after using a script I wrote that leaked around 12GB of memory
22:50:45 <Sgeo> My IRC bot is also apparently a memory leaker, but I'm not sure what's causing that. That bot is also in Tcl.
22:50:48 <Taneb> LinearInterpol, you're behind Gregor, then
22:50:52 <Sgeo> I think I'm bad at manual memory management
22:53:04 <kmc> it doesn't help that people mean one of like 12 different things by "OOP"
22:53:39 <Taneb> kmc, is "OOP" better or worse defined than "FP"
22:53:48 <kmc> the lie that OOP was the origin of abstract data types is pervasive in CS education
22:53:57 <Sgeo> How many dimemsions are there of somewhat well known terminology to describe OO systems?
22:54:08 <Sgeo> single/multiple dispatch, prototypal/class based, etc/
22:54:20 <LinearInterpol> Sgeo: as many dimensions as there are implementations of different ideas.
22:54:30 <Sgeo> LinearInterpol: how many of those ideas have names though
22:55:12 <LinearInterpol> hell, even the definition of object isn't consistent in most places.
22:55:24 <Sgeo> So that random joe schmoe could describe system X as "multiple-dispatch prototypal blah blah blah" and ultimately unique to X but... understandable
22:55:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, what would multiple-dispatch prototypal look like?
22:55:56 <Sgeo> And am I spelling prototypal correctly?
22:57:00 <LinearInterpol> Sgeo: multiple-dispatch prototypal language? try emerald.
22:59:01 <LinearInterpol> like 99% of the environment isn't even defined in Python.
22:59:34 <Sgeo> I like stack-based except when I don't
22:59:47 <Taneb> Sgeo, how about queue-based?
23:00:35 -!- Bike has joined.
23:00:48 <Taneb> Sgeo, there aren't that many queue-based languages
23:01:51 <LinearInterpol> which is scary enough but it does.. allow odd things to happen.
23:06:16 <LinearInterpol> in "Old" you can see I was working on a C port but in the back of my head I slowly said "nooooooooooo"
23:06:39 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:16:21 <kmc> IOCCC 2013 results are in: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013
23:17:05 -!- kmc has set topic: SURLYSPAWN is part of the ANGRYNEIGHBOR family of radar retro-reflectors. | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:19:31 <Bike> "This one-line C program accepts as a first command-line argument the last name of any of the last 31 US Presidents (from Franklin Pierce onwards), in lower case, and prints out their political affiliation."
23:20:58 <Bike> main(int riguing,char**acters){puts(1[acters-~!(*(int*)1[acters]%4796%275%riguing)]);}
23:27:51 <Taneb> I can almost see how that works
23:28:49 <Bike> i'm just glad i can get s far as understaning that 1[bullshit] is the same as bullshit[1].
23:29:01 <Taneb> Well, depending on how much I have misremembered the C spec, riging would always be 2 or 3
23:29:35 <LinearInterpol> god, why did we make a competiton for the most eye-bleedingly horrid C program.
23:29:36 <Bike> wait isn't it jsut argc
23:29:43 <Bike> um because it rules??
23:30:12 <fizzie> I, on the other hand, can't understand how it took me this long to understand where "riguing" and "acters" came from.
23:30:16 <Bike> Also, according to the hint.html it works with a different argc
23:30:18 <Taneb> So, it's taking the first argument, casting it from a string to a pointer of ints
23:30:50 <Taneb> Or... it's casting 1 to a pointer to ints?
23:31:07 <Taneb> It sounds like it's based on the first 4 characters
23:31:35 <mauke> oh, it takes 3 arguments
23:31:38 <mauke> that makes more sense
23:31:49 <mauke> I was wondering what it was doing with argv[2]/argv[3]
23:32:13 <Taneb> I guess ~!(*(int*)1[acters]%4796%275%riguing) must end up either -1 or -2?
23:32:33 <Bike> "This entry takes a BMP image file of hand-drawn (mouse-drawn?) text, specified as the first command-line parameter, and converts it to an ASCII text document. " very nice.
23:32:40 <Bike> LinearInterpol: http://ioccc.org/2013/cable1/hint.html
23:32:43 <oerjan> <LinearInterpol> god, why did we make a competiton for the most eye-bleedingly horrid C program. <-- you're asking this in a channel that has at least two previous winners...
23:32:45 <mauke> if you assume 2's complement, -b is ~b+1
23:32:55 <Taneb> oerjan, I know Gregor, but who else?
23:32:59 <fizzie> It's kind of cheaty how it needs the outputs as arguments.
23:33:12 <Taneb> When did he win/what for?
23:33:14 <mauke> thus -~x is ~~x+1 is x+1
23:33:50 <Taneb> I've thought about entering but keep realising I know nought about C
23:34:02 * oerjan hits LinearInterpol with the saucepan as the closest available approximation ===\__/
23:34:06 <Bike> "Newcomers to C find it hard to learn all those different ways to control flow: for, while, if, do, goto, continue, break and heaven knows what else! So, in this program we only use for, so absolute beginners can get into the code straight away." thank goodness.
23:34:47 <Bike> "main is the most useful function in all of C - so it is a mystery to the author why most programs use it only once. Here we use it over and over for maximum benefit."
23:35:51 <Bike> http://ioccc.org/2013/cable2/cable2.c it's... it's so beautiful.
23:36:10 <mauke> erl -e 'map{map{print int(rand()*8);}(0..16);print chr(10);}(0..30);' | tr '[0-4]' ' '| ./birken
23:36:22 <mauke> this is exactly the kind of bullshit people need to stop writing in perl
23:36:24 <Bike> and includes #define $ for("IOCCC" #include...
23:37:31 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:37:37 <Bike> "This entry weighs in at a magical 4043 bytes (8086 nibbles, 28,301 bits). It manages to implement most of the hardware in a 1980’s era IBM-PC using a few hundred fewer bits than the total number of transistors used to implement the original 8086 CPU."
23:37:39 <mauke> for (0..30) { for (0..16) { print int rand 8; } print "\n"; }
23:38:17 <oerjan> Taneb: tromp_ won in the 2012 contest, and i'd say for implementing an esolang.
23:38:19 <Bike> "If you like living on the edge you can try building the emulator on a big endian machine, and you will get an emulation of a big endian 8086," hsh
23:38:41 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I see
23:38:51 <Taneb> I was working on something vaguely similar that overused gmp
23:39:44 <Bike> –64[T=1[O=32[L=(X=*Y&7)&1,o=X/2&1,l]=0,t=(c=y)&7,a=c/8&7,Y]>>6,g=~-T?y:(n)y,d=BX=y,l]
23:40:36 <Bike> is there an ioccc entry that compresses c source by making it incomprehensible
23:40:46 <mauke> ~-T is an amusing way to test for 1
23:41:04 <kmc> Bike: well there's a C compiler
23:41:12 <kmc> http://bellard.org/otcc/
23:41:24 <kmc> Fabrice Motherfucking Bellard
23:43:33 <mauke> int *Q,u,i,c,k,B,r=0,w,n,F=0,x,J,u,m,p,s=0,v,e,r,L,a,z,y,D,o,g;
23:43:54 <mauke> I like the completely useless =0 in there
23:44:51 <int-e> It improves the readability of the code.
23:45:02 <olsner> Brwn and Jmpsver aren't nice words without the 0s
23:45:12 <myname> is this supposed to do something?
23:46:24 <int-e> Well, first of all it's supposed to impress the IOCCC judges.
23:47:26 <kmc> shachaf: http://twitpic.com/dr4b32
23:50:08 <Bike> myname: the quickbrownfox one is an OCR program.
23:51:18 <Bike> oh hey, there's a Lazy K implementation.
23:51:24 <Bike> "We liked this entry because it can serve as a standalone program as well as an include file"
23:53:20 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:53:40 <Bike> "Huge memory may be required to compile the program (about 300 MB on my machine)" uh
23:53:57 -!- conehead has joined.
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23:59:17 <Bike> "Shaders are written in an interpreted language that supports basic arithmetic, a few math functions, variables and procedural call in the CPS (Continuation Passing Style)."
23:59:22 <Bike> just gonna keep quoting crap