00:00:47 <tswett> Then the type of the "eventual send" function is kinda scary: ERef (EFunc a b) -> ERef a -> (ERef (EFunc a b), ERef b)
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00:01:12 <tswett> Given a reference to a function and a reference to an argument, I can send the argument to the function. The result is a reference to the result, as well as a new reference to the function.
00:02:09 <tswett> If you send a message X to Alice and get a new reference Alice', then the reference Alice' has the property that any message sent to it is guaranteed not to arrive before X does.
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00:13:34 <oerjan> tswett: aren't you assuming Alice is actually using X there.
00:13:52 <tswett> oerjan: I'm not sure what you mean by "actually using".
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00:14:37 <oerjan> i mean, if Alice just discards X and gives you a reference back that does not use it. like haskell laziness.
00:15:51 <tswett> What Alice does with X has nothing to do with the "ERef (EFunc a b)" that you get back; that reference has the same behavior regardless of what Alice does.
00:16:15 <tswett> The "ERef b" can refer to whatever Alice wants it to refer to.
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00:17:26 <Taneb> Writing agda via ssh on my tablet is not particularly fun
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00:21:02 <tswett> All right, so this is four ways of getting a reference, right? You can create a reference to an object; you can use >>= to call a function on a reference, giving you a new reference; and you can eventual-send to an object, giving you both a new reference to the object, and a reference to the result of the send.
00:24:44 <tswett> Then an important question is, when does an ERef a become "resolved", and what do we care...
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00:50:11 <tswett> All right, I guess the main operator is "send an argument reference to a target reference, yielding a result reference and a new version of the target reference". On the other side, an object is defined by one or more functions which take the state of the object and an argument reference, and return a result reference.
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00:58:57 <tswett> This is all made a bit difficult by the fact that Haskell's type system isn't really set up for object-oriented programming.
01:03:36 <Bike> hey nerds, anyone know what iommu does, i have a mystery on my hands
01:04:10 <pikhq> Sure. It's like paging, but on DMA.
01:04:42 <Bike> now riddle me this, why do i have to have it enabled for my NIC to function?
01:05:21 <pikhq> Hard telling. There's many possibilities.
01:05:42 <pikhq> Maybe your NIC can only handle 32-bit addresses, and it needs to access a buffer that the kernel's shoved above that space.
01:05:47 <Bike> i ask because i've been fucking with drivers on a decapitated system all day only to find that i needed some fucking bios option
01:06:28 <Bike> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1294989 behold my salvation.
01:06:42 <Bike> jesus has returned, as a forum thread, to save me
01:08:19 <pikhq> Could also be the case that the device can only deal with a single large buffer, and the kernel hands the device that by using the IOMMU.
01:08:28 <pikhq> I dunno, it depends on implementation details a lot.
01:08:43 <kmc> it seems unlikely someone would design a card like that, because IOMMU is pretty recent?
01:08:47 <kmc> I don't really know though
01:08:54 <kmc> wonder if Fiora knows
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01:09:29 <Bike> the motherboard is fairly new, not sure about the nic
01:09:37 <kmc> i guess if the nic is part of the mobo they can assume you have it
01:09:42 <Bike> i think it might be some kind of weird driver quirk. i pretty much hate all network drivers at this point
01:09:47 <Bike> the nic is in the mobo, yeah
01:09:50 <pikhq> The NIC's a few years old, but probably newer than IOMMU.
01:09:54 <Bike> very nearly bought a pci one...
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01:10:11 <pikhq> I know it's a few years old because my *last* computer had that exact kind.
01:10:15 <pikhq> It also had an IOMMU.
01:10:36 <Bike> i'm guessing you didn't need to enable it for network.
01:10:59 <pikhq> I don't know, it was on by default in the BIOS.
01:11:19 <Bike> this is why i need to get with fucking w/ my fpga's ethernet. write some drivers. make some spite
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01:15:09 <Bike> note that when i say the ethernet didn't work, i mean that everything reported that the interface was fine, but i'd time out with dhcp or any kind of router communication.
01:17:35 <kmc> http://tastetheburritobox.com/
01:21:06 <Bike> i'm naming this computer syadavaktavyah in honor of me not knowing what the fuck
01:24:48 <oerjan> Bike: jain't nothing wrong with your computer
01:25:46 <tswett> don't they have thsoe in japan
01:26:07 <oerjan> i thought they were more an indian thing
01:26:24 <oerjan> or are you referring to the burrito boxes.
01:26:40 <tswett> The burrito boxes, yeah.
01:26:47 <kmc> all of the vending machines I saw in Japan were pretty low tech and boring
01:26:49 <kmc> I was disappointed
01:27:22 <kmc> probably there's some enormous vending machine district in Tōkyō that I should have visited
01:27:24 <oerjan> kmc: all the advanced ones start making things almost, but not quite unlike tea and have to commit seppuku.
01:27:44 <kmc> there were claw machines that dispensed large sausages
01:27:56 <kmc> and capsule machines with used panties
01:28:05 <kmc> but neither of those is that interesting from a technological perspective
01:29:18 <oerjan> kmc: just reverse those hth
01:29:30 <kmc> large panties and used sausages?
01:29:47 <tswett> kmc: what about the pizza vending machines?
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01:29:52 <kmc> haven't seen
01:30:28 <kmc> syadavaktavyahth
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02:28:53 <Bike> have now moved on to uefi problems, i'm hitting some kind of cosmic checklist
02:29:22 <kmc> circles of hell
02:29:44 <Bike> unaligned pointer 022
02:30:14 <Bike> also my mobo has a shitty implementation of AMD-Vi apparently, whatever that means!
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02:35:26 <tswett> I'm trying to think of geometric concepts that can be defined only in terms of points and lines, without talking about distance at all.
02:35:32 <tswett> As far as I can tell, there pretty much aren't any.
02:36:13 <tswett> Like, you can define collinearity. That's pretty much it.
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02:36:44 <tswett> Circle? Nope. Triangle? Not without defining line segments, nope.
02:37:17 <oerjan> the dual of collinearity is three lines intersecting in a point hth
02:37:21 <Bike> why are you trying to think of that
02:37:42 <tswett> Bike: because the Faro plane.
02:37:55 <tswett> What's the dual of an angle?
02:38:44 <tswett> I guess it's three lines, one of them distinguished.
02:38:51 <oerjan> tswett: note that you cannot define anything that isn't preserved under linear maps and projections.
02:38:58 <oerjan> which excludes angles.
02:39:10 <tswett> Right, I guess that's obvious in retrospect.
02:39:24 <tswett> You can define parallelity. But in the Faro plane, no lines are parallel.
02:40:11 <oerjan> you can fix one line as infinite and define parallel as "intersect on the infinite line"
02:40:34 <tswett> Yeah, but then you pretty much just get the boring four-point plane.
02:40:39 <tswett> Where "line" means "set of two points".
02:41:17 <tswett> If you take the Faro plane and denote one line as the line at infinity, and then you remove that line, you're left with four points.
02:41:19 <oerjan> i'm just defining the usual translation from euclidean plane to projective plane here, really.
02:41:30 <tswett> A four-point plane, in fact. Where the lines are precisely the sets containing two points.
02:41:59 <tswett> No three points are collinear, because no line contains three points.
02:42:17 <oerjan> maybe you can define conic sections
02:42:41 <oerjan> probably gets something trivial in the faro plane, though.
02:43:40 <oerjan> but it's not really the fault of the concepts that the faro plane is too small to fit enough distinct examples of them to be interesting.
02:45:20 <oerjan> there are numerical expressions that are preserved under projective transformations although i cannot remember their names.
02:46:58 <oerjan> you just need four points in the usual projective plane to fix any transformation, i think.
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02:51:47 <tswett> Oh yeah, conic sections.
02:52:00 <tswett> Maybe in the Faro plane, "conic section" just means something like "set of five points".
03:00:30 <tswett> Also may be the word for "lighthouse" in some languages.
03:02:04 <Bike> arch doesn't have sudo by default. feelin pretty ascetic here
03:02:08 <Bike> took me two minutes to remember that word
03:02:42 <kmc> debian doesn't either
03:02:48 <kmc> if you do the barebones whatever install
03:03:13 <Bike> i also forgot to put wheel in sudoers so an incident was reported
03:03:33 <kmc> sudo is pretty fucked anyway
03:03:40 <Bike> does it not report anything by default? i even checked /var/spool/mail which i have never used in my life
03:03:42 <kmc> for your typical linux desktop
03:03:58 <Bike> well i don't want to just log in as root...
03:04:08 <kmc> it has all this complexity for delegating power to run individual commands, none of which is useful to typical desktop user
03:04:28 <kmc> and the password prompt is little more than a molly-guard, for a typical desktop install
03:04:31 <kmc> it provides no real security
03:04:41 <kmc> I think there are simpler sudo-replacements which take these facts into account
03:04:57 <kmc> nope, haven't used them :/
03:05:03 <Bike> also i am probably going to set up an sshd on this thing and use it as a bouncer so as to stop annoying you
03:06:27 <oerjan> tswett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_of_Alexandria
03:07:02 <Bike> it's kind of amusing how incredibly fucked i was without any internet
03:12:09 <quintopia> kmc: what do you mean about the password providing no security? would my set up which requires a fresh password entry for every sudo be considered "atypical"
03:13:11 <olsner> I think the typical setup has a 5 minute timeout until you have to re-enter the password
03:13:32 <kmc> you're probably running sudo within a shell and xterm and x session which are controlled by your user account
03:14:36 <kmc> so if your account gets compromised the attacker can easily compromise one of those and get your password the next time you run sudo
03:14:46 <tswett> You're pretty much undoubtedly running it within a shell controlled by your user account.
03:15:06 <kmc> there's also the part where most of the stuff you'd care about an attacker doing/having is in your user account, anyway
03:15:21 <tswett> Since why would you be running it in someone else's shell.
03:19:18 <Bike> yeah, i'm not too worried about getting haxxed really
03:19:36 <Bike> maybe we can have a new age of viruses, spreading on dumbass linuxers like me
03:19:56 <tswett> My laptop is set to allow anyone to SSH to it as root with no password.
03:20:11 <Bike> also i hate minimalism
03:20:17 <Bike> that's not related i just do
03:20:29 <zzo38> tswett: Why? If it has no internet connection then it might not be as much of a problem, but still it doesn't seem so sensible
03:20:34 <kmc> what about it Bike
03:20:56 <Bike> annoyed at people trying to find the once and for all really real perfect minimal computer
03:21:01 <tswett> It's behind a NAT all the time, except when I'm at school. Then it has a public IP address.
03:21:24 <tswett> I look in the authorization logs, and apparently lots of people log into it.
03:21:29 <tswett> I assume they're installing all sorts of malware.
03:22:02 <tswett> I mean, I know that *some* of them are, because every time I log into an account with my laptop, it gets compromised within a couple of days.
03:22:29 <tswett> And my web browser is almost unusable because literally more than three quarters of the window are taken up by toolbars.
03:22:39 <Bike> how joking are you exactly
03:22:47 <zzo38> Bike: Well, I too try to find good instructions sets that I can try to build a good computer. My criterias are to have open source program to implement it in hardware (without vendor lock or patent issues), to be simple, to support 32-bits address, to be supported target by GCC or LLVM, and it can be changed to have different features which I might want.
03:23:04 <zzo38> tswett: Then turn off all of the toolbars.
03:23:32 <olsner> tswett: and here I thought you had found the ultimate "zen" approach to computer security
03:23:43 <Bike> zzo38: well "simple" doesn't mean much of anything, basically.
03:23:56 <tswett> zzo38: whenever I turn off a toolbar, the browser crashes.
03:24:11 <Bike> i cannibalized some old computers, i should set up honeypot puters
03:24:29 <Bike> attacker gains access, realizes that the machine is from 1992, gives up in disgust
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03:24:32 <Bike> ultimate security
03:24:38 <zzo38> tswett: Then make a backup of non-binary files and then erase everything and reinstall everything, and then hopefully it will work
03:24:57 <zzo38> Bike: I doubt it; someone might be interested nevertheless
03:25:01 <quintopia> zzo38: also he's lying about the toolbars
03:25:04 <tswett> You know how sourdough contains a specific mixture of microorganisms that result in it being completely safe to eat, and if you were to remove the wrong ones, you'd end up with some weird random mixture of bacteria that'd probably kill you?
03:25:25 <zzo38> I don't know about sourdough much
03:25:26 <Bike> oh yeah, well how many 1992 computers used to turn on my lights have you compromised, huh
03:25:40 <kmc> tswett: i don't think that's true
03:25:42 <kmc> about sourdough
03:25:53 <kmc> douglass_ would know for sure
03:26:02 <tswett> zzo38: I've tried that, but all the non-binary files I try to copy off the computer automatically get machine translated into Portuguese for some reason.
03:26:17 <zzo38> Bike: Me? I expect, none. But I never tried, and don't intend to, so it doesn't matter.
03:26:25 <kmc> salt-rising bread, on the other hand, is made using the bacterium which causes gas gangrene
03:26:32 <kmc> so don't cut yourself while kneading it
03:26:37 <Bike> you /expect/ none?
03:26:41 <Bike> do you sleep-hack
03:27:19 <zzo38> Bike: No, but I may have inadvertently done something.
03:27:51 <Bike> inadveertantly hacked my doorputer? what's wrong with you man
03:27:59 <zzo38> (Well, I suppose maybe I do sleep-hack, but not in the sense you probably mean)
03:27:59 <tswett> And whenever I try to copy a binary file off the computer, I end up with a file that just says "ÿþ" followed by a line break, in UTF-8.
03:28:19 <quintopia> zzo38: you dreams about hacking eh
03:28:35 <zzo38> quintopia: That isn't what I mean either actually
03:28:55 <quintopia> zzo38: you intentionally screw with your sleep schedule?
03:29:13 <tswett> And the mode ends up getting set to 7412.
03:29:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, I do do that, but I don't know if that is what I mean or not; that is why I wrote "maybe".
03:29:54 <Bike> this cpu is ten years old, sweeeeet
03:29:57 <quintopia> zzo38: must be hard not to know what you mean
03:30:16 <zzo38> quintopia: That's what *you* think.
03:32:01 <zzo38> I have looked at a few instruction sets such as ARM2 and MMIX, both of which are supported in GCC but not in LLVM.
03:32:57 <zzo38> Is it possible to use GCC as a LLVM-backend?
03:36:54 <oerjan> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -t latin1
03:37:05 <oerjan> that didn't work much.
03:37:06 <Bike> makes you think.
03:37:30 <oerjan> or maybe it did and it just isn't actual utf8
03:37:37 <kmc> `from-8bit ÿþ
03:37:40 <HackEgo> iconv: incomplete character or shift sequence at end of buffer
03:37:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ \ enc=$(echo "$1" | iconv -t iso8859-1 | chardet | awk '{print $2}') \ echo "$1" | iconv -t iso8859-1 | iconv -f "$enc"
03:38:52 <tswett> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -f utf8 -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le -t utf 8 | unidecode
03:38:54 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion to `utf' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
03:38:56 <zzo38> I have also written a program "utftovlq" which is a C program capable to do many of those things too, such as convert UTF-8 to ISO-8859-1, or other things
03:39:11 <kmc> ISO 1337:1980 Wrought coppers (having minimum copper contents of 99,85 %) -- Chemical composition and forms of wrought products
03:39:13 <zzo38> If such program is loaded you can see if it work or not
03:39:27 <tswett> Someone say what I just said, but such that it works.
03:39:44 <kmc> ISO 420:1994. Photography -- Processing chemicals
03:40:06 <Bike> gettin high on... i don't know what chemicals you use in darkrooms
03:40:07 <HackEgo> 437// \ 500// \ 500V1// \ 850// \ 851// \ 852// \ 855// \ 856// \ 857// \ 860// \ 861// \ 862// \ 863// \ 864// \ 865// \ 866// \ 866NAV// \ 869// \ 874// \ 904// \ 1026// \ 1046// \ 1047// \ 8859_1// \ 8859_2// \ 8859_3// \ 8859_4// \ 8859_5// \ 8859_6// \ 8859_7// \ 8859_8// \ 8859_9// \ 10646-1:1993// \ 10646-1:1993/UCS4/ \ ANSI_X3.4-1968// \ AN
03:40:16 <kmc> Bike: the bad chemicals
03:40:20 <tswett> What's that command to pastebin something?
03:40:39 <oerjan> `run echo ÿþ | iconv -f utf8 -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le -t utf8 | unidecode
03:40:41 <HackEgo> iconv: incomplete character or shift sequence at end of buffer
03:40:46 <Bike> 'bad chemicals' means 'good shit' right
03:40:59 <kmc> -f utf8 -t utf8 should be the default
03:41:38 <zzo38> How do you load C program into HackEgo anyways?
03:41:49 <kmc> `run echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le | unidecode
03:41:59 <kmc> `run echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le | hd
03:42:00 <HackEgo> 00000000 ef bb bf |...| \ 00000003
03:42:00 <zzo38> kmc: No, the default should depend on the current locale setting, isn't it?
03:42:10 <kmc> zzo38: in HackEgo i meant
03:42:14 <Bike> unidecode doesn't take stdin i thought
03:42:15 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
03:42:22 <HackEgo> [U+00E4 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS]
03:42:23 <zzo38> (If the locale setting is UTF-8, then yes it should be UTF-8, clearly)
03:42:33 <Bike> `run echo ä > unidecode -
03:42:33 <kmc> en_NZ really
03:42:44 <tswett> `run unidecode $(echo -n ÿþ | iconv -t latin1 | iconv -f utf16le)
03:42:46 <HackEgo> [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
03:42:48 <zzo38> How to load C program into HakEgo?
03:43:06 <Bike> fetch the source and compile it? fetch a binary?
03:43:52 <zzo38> I have the source, I don't have binary for this computer though; how do I load a file on?
03:44:00 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
03:44:32 <HackEgo> http://: Invalid host name.
03:44:43 <tswett> `wget http://lpaste.net/raw/98076
03:44:59 <zzo38> You should specify output filename too
03:45:07 <zzo38> (I think it is -O for wget)
03:45:14 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:44:44-- http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:44:45-- (try: 2) http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connecte
03:45:22 <tswett> `wget http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 -o 98076
03:45:32 <tswett> Right, right, the DNS thing.
03:45:33 <Bike> i think there's a whitelist
03:45:51 <Bike> oerjan: lol oops.
03:45:53 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:45:23-- http://lpaste.net/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:45:24-- (try: 2) http://lpaste.net/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to conne
03:46:04 <tswett> `wget http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076 -o 98076
03:46:16 <Bike> `fetch http://lpaste.net/raw/98076
03:47:07 <HackEgo> --2014-01-07 03:46:36-- http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2014-01-07 03:46:37-- (try: 2) http://176.9.42.8/raw/98076%20-o%2098076 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to conne
03:47:09 <HackEgo> 2014-01-07 03:47:08 URL:http://lpaste.net/raw/98076 [373] -> "98076" [1]
03:47:31 <tswett> Huh, someone got 98076 somehow.
03:47:55 <tswett> `run cat $(which fetch)
03:48:06 <Bike> i think it's builtin
03:48:11 <tswett> Bike: you did it, Bike. You made it happen.
03:48:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
03:48:24 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
03:48:27 <oerjan> tswett: `fetch is outside the sandbox.
03:50:40 <HackEgo> [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
03:51:15 <tswett> `run mv $(which unidecode) unidecode- && rm $(which unidecode)
03:51:19 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
03:51:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidecode: not found
03:51:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
03:52:09 <HackEgo> [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A] [U+0048 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H]
03:52:12 <tswett> Whither does `revert revert?
03:52:40 <oerjan> to the previous version hth
03:53:03 <kmc> `unidecode ꙮ
03:53:05 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
03:54:12 <zzo38> `fetch http://sprunge.us/UNPA
03:54:14 <HackEgo> 2014-01-07 03:54:13 URL:http://sprunge.us/UNPA [9462] -> "UNPA" [1]
03:54:28 <olsner> "#esꙮteric :Illegal channel name" :(
03:54:50 <HackEgo> [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE] [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE]
03:54:55 <HackEgo> UNPA: ASCII C program text
03:54:58 <zzo38> `run gcc -s -O2 -o bin/utftovlq UNPA
03:54:59 <HackEgo> UNPA: file not recognized: File format not recognized \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
03:55:18 <zzo38> `run gcc -s -O2 -o bin/utftovlq -x c UNPA
03:55:36 <olsner> hmm, what does -s do again?
03:55:40 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
03:55:51 <tswett> HackEgo: quit trying to read /proc/mount hth
03:55:58 <zzo38> Bike: It doesn't work like that. Download it into your own computer for documentation
03:56:02 <Bike> `run echo foo | utftovlq
03:57:13 <zzo38> The parameter needs to be one character input type, one character output type, for example "utftovlq 81" is converting plain 8-bit data into UTF-8.
03:57:29 <zzo38> (This plain data is considered as ISO-8859-1, for purpose of Unicode encoding)
03:57:32 <kmc> how is it better than iconv
03:58:08 <Bike> `utftovlq 81 UNPA
03:58:23 <tswett> find / | xargs -n 2 mv
03:59:01 <Bike> you know what's cool? error messages are cool
03:59:22 <zzo38> kmc: It can do various other things too, such as convert endianness of files, convert overlong encodings, and support up to 64-bit numbers
03:59:25 <kmc> `run LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8 errno -l
03:59:26 <HackEgo> bash: errno: command not found
03:59:56 <kmc> `quote de_DE.UTF-8
03:59:58 <HackEgo> 925) <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
04:00:15 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:00:16 <HackEgo> rm: Entfernen von „all-cats-are-cats“ nicht möglich: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
04:01:13 <tswett> `run echo /hackenv/bin/past*
04:01:14 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastalog /hackenv/bin/pastaquote /hackenv/bin/paste /hackenv/bin/pastefortunes /hackenv/bin/pastekarma /hackenv/bin/pastelog /hackenv/bin/pastelogs /hackenv/bin/pastenquotes /hackenv/bin/pastequotes /hackenv/bin/pastewisdom /hackenv/bin/pastlog
04:01:18 <oerjan> Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs, Brünhilde
04:01:21 <Bike> `run LC_ALL=so_ET.UTF-8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:01:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:01:28 <Bike> locale game weak
04:01:34 <tswett> `run locale -a | paste
04:01:36 <zzo38> All the convert type are: 8=8-bit, w=16-bit LE, W=16-bit BE, d=32-bit LE, D=32-bit BE, q=64-bit LE, Q=64-bit BE, 1=UTF-8, 0=Modified UTF-8, V=VLQ, v=LEB-128, u=UTF-16 LE, U=UTF-16 BE, T=translation, M=Messagepack (input only), 4=Hex. There is also other options: L=linefeed, c=carriage-return, b=BOM in, B=BOM out, t=Make translation file small-endian.
04:01:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1702
04:01:54 <zzo38> For "translation", a translation table must be given as a second argument.
04:02:00 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=ar_JO.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:02:09 <Bike> `run LC_ALL=so_ET.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': No such file or directory
04:02:14 <Bike> i don't get it.
04:02:23 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=zh_CN.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:02:25 <HackEgo> rm: 无法删除"all-cats-are-cats": 没有那个文件或目录
04:02:33 <tswett> Presumably rm doesn't know so_ET.
04:03:32 <tswett> `run LC_ALL=ja_JP.utf8 rm all-cats-are-cats
04:03:34 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `all-cats-are-cats': そのようなファイルやディレクトリはありません
04:03:52 <Bike> well, the other way around, i think.
04:05:01 <tswett> "Sono yōna fairu ya direkutori wa arimasen"
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04:17:18 <pikhq> tswett: "you na", not "youna".
04:18:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `foobar': No such file or directory
04:18:36 <lifthrasiir> I really wanted to see the Unicode mumbo-jumbo
04:21:52 <tswett> pikhq: well, I was copying and pasting from Gūguru ga hon'yaku.
04:22:50 <HackEgo> [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM] [U+FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALE
04:22:58 <pikhq> Ah, "Google Translates".
04:23:11 <tswett> Yes, Google Translates.
04:24:06 <zzo38> The example of my program would be, for example converting UTF-8 to CESU-8 will be "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq w0"
04:25:52 <tswett> Hum. GT translates "テゥランスレーテゥ" as "Thuringer Lance de Lethe".
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04:29:59 <Bike> http://sicb.org/meetings/2014/schedule/abstractdetails.php?id=1217 cameron, j
04:30:20 <tswett> アッパレンtlyティシsウァチョウゲtウェニョウジュｓｔｔｙペエンｇィシントティシメ
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04:32:41 <kmc> alle Katzen sind Katzen
04:32:45 <kmc> kaikki kissat ovat kissoja
04:33:19 <kmc> sicb? structure and interpretation of computer brogramming?
04:34:02 <tswett> Todos los gatos son gatos.
04:34:10 <Bike> kmc: i'd buy it
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04:37:37 <tswett> Huh, Google Translate translates "ン" as "Emissions" and "ンン" as "Unless they already exist".
04:38:21 <Bike> "so" and "so-so" also mean different things :p
04:38:48 <kmc> nobody actually speaks japanese it's all an elaborate hoax
04:39:44 <pikhq> tswett: Also, yes, I can read your psuedo-Japanese. :)
04:39:54 <tswett> Bike: yeah, but those say "n" and "n'n".
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04:41:39 <tswett> のぼぢあくつある類スペアクスじゃ派寝せ逸すあるルアンえらぼら手穂悪巣
04:41:53 <tswett> Bike: I'm reasonably sure neither of those is actually a Japanese word.
04:42:05 <Bike> oh well probably
04:43:27 <tswett> If you tell Google Translate to translate from Latin to English, then "Lorem" becomes "Business", "Lorem lorem" becomes "Business on the Internet", "Lorem lorem lorem" becomes "Chinese Internet technology", "Lorem lorem lorem lorem" becomes "Chinese Internet phone technology", and "Lorem lorem lorem lorem lorem" becomes "China China China China China".
04:43:52 <Bike> @google translation party
04:45:13 <pikhq> "nn" is close to a Japanese utterance at least.
04:45:18 <tswett> "Lorem ipsum" becomes "Product". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "China's". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "China's Internet". "Lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum lorem ipsum" becomes "Of course, system design, and system design, and system design,"
04:45:24 <pikhq> Though you would write it "un" instead.
04:46:24 <pikhq> "Lorem ipsum sit dolor amet" becomes "There's a lot of pain"
04:46:49 <zzo38> And you can convert any UTF-8 variant (CESU-8, overlong, normal, etc) into proper UTF-8 by "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq u1"
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04:56:42 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/raw/98081
04:57:20 <tswett> "You can fill out before the arrows to get pregnant."
04:57:48 <tswett> "It's easy , you will feel to the home and the great gods into labor over the mountains, instantly. There is no element of fear of the notebook of life impact."
04:58:40 <tswett> "Welcome to the court of the overall development of the plant."
04:58:47 <tswett> I want there to be a court of the overall development of the plant.
05:01:08 <tswett> "Each warm-up , wise life is loose , or is willing to ferry a lion"
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05:42:35 <kmc> google used to translate "quid pro quo" as "What happens in Vegas"
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06:40:30 <zzo38> Why does it translate everything like that?
06:42:09 <zzo38> I mean "What happens in Vegas" and that stuff
06:42:36 <zzo38> (I don't live at Vegas, so I wouldn't know)
06:43:31 <Bike> Oh. It's a joke. "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" is a common epxression.
06:46:20 <kmc> google translate works by data mining the web, so it can get strange ideas about things
06:46:41 <kmc> for example people use "lorem ipsum" as filler text on lots of different kinds of pages
06:47:07 <zzo38> O, so that's why it doesn't work. (A lot of other things also don't work on Google translation; there are better ones)
06:50:59 <kmc> which are better?
06:51:12 <zzo38> I forget now, but I did see better ones before
06:51:24 <Bike> well i'm convinced
06:51:33 <zzo38> I have also seen worse ones
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07:02:46 <Bike> anyway, all this cra kind of makes me interested in gpu driver stuff... probably i can't do anything good for the projects though :/
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07:12:50 <Sgeo> Medicine One is such an unimaginative name for a chemical that cures a fictitious poison (ATP decoupler)
07:13:34 <Sgeo> the Creatures series
07:13:46 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/ATP_Decoupler
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07:14:37 <Bike> does creatures have proper neurotoins
07:15:32 <Sgeo> There are some chemicals that can cause mental issues if they can be made to stay in the system long enough
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07:16:05 <Sgeo> But the only examples I can think of normally have a very quick half-life in a normal norn's bloodstream
07:16:48 <Sgeo> Punishment and Reward
07:17:04 <Sgeo> I made a norn that had Punishment constantly pumped into it
07:17:20 <Sgeo> It would start doing random things, and eventually refuse to do anything at all
07:21:14 <Bike> zzo38: customer service!
07:21:27 <zzo38> Such command is converting UTF-8 (type "1") to UTF-16 LE (type "u")
07:21:29 <quintopia> i was about to investigate some strange thing sgeo said before i crashed my client
07:21:46 <Bike> he told you that the fictitious poison is from Creatures.
07:22:14 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, there is a source code for it.
07:22:27 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/UNPA
07:22:29 <HackEgo> /* \ UTF-to-VLQ \ Public domain \ */ \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #ifdef _WIN32 \ #include <fcntl.h> \ #endif \ \ typedef unsigned char byte; \ typedef unsigned long long ULL; \ \ typedef ULL(*in_func_t)(void); \ typedef void(*out_func_t)(ULL); \ \ char in_mode; \ char out_mode; \ int options[128]; \ ULL translation[
07:23:35 <zzo38> `run cat UNPA | egrep '.'\]=write_
07:23:36 <HackEgo> ['8']=write_8bit_raw, \ ['w']=write_16bit_le_raw, \ ['W']=write_16bit_be_raw, \ ['d']=write_32bit_le_raw, \ ['D']=write_32bit_be_raw, \ ['q']=write_64bit_le_raw, \ ['Q']=write_64bit_be_raw, \ ['1']=write_utf8, \ ['0']=write_utf8, \ ['V']=write_vlq8, \ ['v']=write_leb128, \ ['u']=write_utf16_le, \ ['U']=write_utf16_be, \
07:23:54 <zzo38> Well, that's most of them, anyways.
07:24:18 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: what's a difference between 1 and 0?
07:24:18 <zzo38> There is also 'T' for translate (needs a file containing a translation table), and '4' for hex.
07:24:33 <Sgeo> There is a typo in the normal norn genome
07:24:46 <Sgeo> Pain gets converted into hunger for protein backup instead of pain backup
07:25:03 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: The '0' is only different for output; it makes no difference for input. For output, '0' causes a code number zero to be overlong encoded (which some programs require).
07:25:35 <zzo38> (The "write_utf8" function checks if it is invoked with type '0' or '1' in this case)
07:27:01 <zzo38> There are also a few other options dealing with line breaks and byte order marks.
07:32:08 <zzo38> Hopefully this explains it enough? Using pipes, you can do many more things than just what is specified here, though.
07:34:17 <zzo38> Unlike iconv, utftovlq is capable of working on binary files too; it doesn't have to work on text files. Also, it supports VLQ, overlong UTF-8, codepoints up to 64-bits (or 36-bits for UTF-8), etc, but it doesn't have translation tables for various character sets built-in; you need to use external files. Also, utftovlq does not support UTF-7 and that stuff either.
07:35:04 <zzo38> So they are really two different programs for different purposes, although some of the purposes are shared between them.
07:35:36 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: actually, I'm quite confused why 0 and 1 makes differences while the source code seems to be same for both.
07:36:23 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Like I said, the "write_utf8" function checks this; instead of duplicating the function except for the difference, it just has a condition to check this specific case.
07:37:14 <zzo38> (Both types are the same for input, though.)
07:37:16 <lifthrasiir> you'd rather have a simple usage when the program is called without any args... ;)
07:37:34 <zzo38> I could do that, but I didn't put any in (yet).
07:37:53 <zzo38> The program is public domain anyone can make whatever variation of the program you want to.
07:38:02 <lifthrasiir> yeah, and it seems to ignore any UTF-8 errors (including overlong sequences) naturally.
07:38:17 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, that is on purpose.
08:11:52 <zzo38> Is anyone able to help to make 8x8 graphics for some computer game?
08:12:13 <zzo38> There is 32 kind of pieces, 16 for tiles and 16 for sprites.
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08:21:27 <zzo38> But, the software is public domain so other people are allowed to sell it too.
08:22:27 <zzo38> (But, if you want to do that, it is recommended that you will make the box art too. It is not a requirement, however.)
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08:36:20 <mroman_> zzo38: Have you already searched for public domain game graphics?
08:36:45 <zzo38> mroman_: They aren't suitable.
08:40:15 <mroman_> What kind of graphics are you looking for then?
08:41:19 <zzo38> They are specialized for a specific kind of computer game, for one thing; also, the tiles are mono, and sprites are three colors + transparency (the same three for each one, or up to two different palettes for sprites)
08:44:33 <lifthrasiir> I was seriously considering a minimalistic VM suited for 2D (or limited 3D) game programming
08:44:59 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, and I was considering a way to make the program fit in a QR code, too.
08:45:11 <zzo38> (But none of this has to do with the game I am making now)
08:45:22 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: which is for me a non-issue though :)
08:45:32 <lifthrasiir> rather, I seek for simple and relatively performant implementations
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09:31:46 <b_jonas> mauke: I forgot to mention yesterday that the rules for conversion to null pointer are also different in every edition of the standards. just saying.
09:33:11 <mroman_> unsigned overflow in C is defined behaviour, right?
09:33:26 <mroman_> i.e (uint8_t)(255+1) == (uint8_t)0?
09:34:10 <mroman_> I vagely remember an assume wraparound option, but afaik that applies only to signed overflows
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09:57:59 <Taneb> I had a dream where I was watching a Pirates of the Caribbean movie and it opened with Legolas telling the fourth wall how he killed Gilderoy Lockhart to become the new Dread Pirate Roberts
10:01:21 <olsner> actual Legolas, or the guy who plays Legolas?
10:01:30 <Taneb> I think my brain was aiming for Will Turner and missed
10:01:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: unsigned integral types in C and C++ always wrap around as if they used modulo a two power, yes
10:02:11 <Taneb> olsner, the guy Orlando Bloom played in PotC
10:02:34 <b_jonas> mroman_: you can still get an undefined behaviour from them if you shift by too large shift count, or if you divide by zero
10:02:39 <olsner> right, and he's the one who plays legolas
11:01:12 <zzo38> I think in LLVM you can specify whether or not you get undefined behaviour for some arithmetic operations
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13:32:31 <boily> good CYUL morning!
13:32:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 13h 25m 53s ago: <boily> norway is warmer this time of the year. <-- incidentally i saw in the newspaper that the night before yesterday was the fourth hottest january night ever measured (by minimum temperature) in trondheim. (it was 5.1 celsius.)
13:32:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 13h 24m 25s ago: http://www.adressa.no/vaeret/article8897643.ece
13:34:02 <boily> @tell oerjan the next logical step is to learn Norwegian.
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14:32:16 <HackEgo> atrapado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:43:17 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 9m 14s ago: the next logical step is to learn Norwegian.
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14:50:18 <oerjan> <tswett> "Lorem ipsum" becomes "Product". <-- heh when i think about it it makes complete sense that google translate would go haywire on variations of this phrase.
14:51:08 <oerjan> because it is often used as a temporary replacement for text that hasn't yet been written. so if google finds both the before and after versions...
14:51:29 <oerjan> it would think one is a translation of the other.
14:51:36 <boily> google translate autodetects "lorem ipsum" as latin, then translates it into fr:Chine.
14:52:26 <oerjan> boily: btw case matters in these things.
14:54:07 <oerjan> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetuer adipiscing elit sed diam -> This page is designed to explore a computer program to implement the
14:54:37 <oerjan> i had to remove the commas in it, otherwise it started breaking it up.
14:55:09 <ais523> lorem ipsum is apparently an actual passage of Latin altered to have a frequency distribution of letters/word lengths matching English
14:55:30 <boily> la:Lorem → en:Business, la:lorem → en:Internet, la:Ipsum → en:the, la:ipsum → en:it, la:lorem ipsum → en:China, la:lorem Ipsum → en:Product, la:Lorem ipsum → en:Product, la:Lorem Ipsum → en:NATO.
14:55:32 <ais523> and thus the result makes no sense
14:55:47 <oerjan> ais523: no, i doubt that's what's happening.
14:56:15 <oerjan> ais523: as i understand it, google translate works by finding pages that it thinks are translations of each other, no?
14:56:16 <boily> `run echo 'Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO' >wisdom/'lorem ipsum'
14:56:16 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't mean to suggest it was
14:56:18 <ais523> just bringing up trivia
14:56:34 <ais523> it's clear why Google Translate is so confued
14:57:59 <oerjan> boily: i think the translations of [Ii]psum alone are fairly correct. it's a pronoun after all.
14:58:19 <oerjan> not exact, but something that can often make sense in context.
15:00:41 <boily> Latine loqui coactus sum, non.
15:02:45 <boily> apparently, "coactat" is “confined”.
15:03:02 * boily mapoles his way out of oerjan's confinement
15:03:22 <oerjan> boily: i don't think gt finds the right verb
15:03:48 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coacto is what i was going for
15:03:56 <oerjan> (only guessing it existed.)
15:04:56 <oerjan> where do you find that?
15:05:21 <boily> from your coacto wiktionary page → descendants → french «cacher».
15:05:23 <oerjan> oh the french descendant
15:05:57 <oerjan> this may be a shock to you, but words change meanings.
15:06:50 <oerjan> hm so the computer term "cache" also derives from this.
15:12:44 <boily> also, there aren't any official quotation rules for Latin.
15:14:49 <oerjan> just use the quotative case
15:15:55 <ais523> oerjan: you made that up, right?
15:16:34 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotative
15:17:54 <oerjan> once again, reality trumps fiction.
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15:20:34 <boily> “Do not meddle in the affairs of linguists, for you are instrumental and taste good with oblique mustard.”
15:21:28 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure instrumental is a case, though.
15:22:20 <boily> instrumental is quite common → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_case
15:23:08 <boily> (strangely, wikipedia doesn't mention Japanese's 「で」)
15:23:47 <nooodl> で's more general than the instrumental case
15:24:54 <nooodl> looks like it doesn't list e.g. latin's ablative either, so i guess it's that
15:26:21 <boily> at least, the article refers to the comitative.
15:33:19 <oerjan> <Taneb> I had a dream where I was watching a Pirates of the Caribbean movie and it opened with Legolas telling the fourth wall how he killed Gilderoy Lockhart to become the new Dread Pirate Roberts <-- with his sled, i assume.
15:34:22 <boily> speaking of the Fourth Wall, I made a grave mistake yesterday night. I began reading OOTS.
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15:39:07 <ais523> boily: I used to pay actual money at cybercafés to read OOTS
15:39:19 <ais523> before I had friends with Internet connections I could borrow
15:39:52 <Taneb> Well, this is the first time I've cried at the end of a main-series pokemon game
15:40:01 <ais523> Taneb: X/Y, I take it?
15:40:36 <boily> do you need a membership card to borrow friends?
15:41:06 <quintopia> http://deeperdesign.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/is-iron-man-made-of-lego/
15:41:18 <Taneb> ais523, I specify main-series because I probably cried at Mystery Dungeon Red
15:41:38 <Taneb> Or at least I would if I reached it for the first time as I am now
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15:41:55 <ais523> (I could also guess the gen 4 Pokémon Mystery Dungeon games, but those probably don't count as main series)
15:41:59 <ais523> PMD is better with its stories, really
15:42:50 <boily> quintopia: back in Montréal.
15:42:51 <metasepia> CYUL 071535Z 24015G26KT 4SM -SHSN BKN026 BKN035 M14/M18 A2978 RMK SC6SC1 SLP088
15:43:01 <ais523> also I have 73-second ping for some reason
15:43:13 <metasepia> KATL 071452Z 33014KT 10SM FEW250 M12/M21 A3050 RMK AO2 SLP348 T11171206 51021
15:43:48 <boily> quintopia: bleh :p
15:44:12 <boily> also, what's the proper translation for fr:verglas?
15:44:26 <Taneb> boily, describe verglas?
15:46:30 <boily> Taneb: when temperature goes over 0 °C, it rains or snow melts, then gets back under zero and you get ice everywhere.
15:47:16 <boily> same thing here. «glace noire» is the sneaky ice you get on roads and you can't see until your car's spinning every possible way.
15:47:40 <mroman_> #define __rol__(x) (x << 1u) | (x >> ((sizeof(x) * CHAR_BIT) - 1))
15:47:46 <mroman_> ^- that's probably as good as it can get?
15:47:47 <quintopia> i'm not sure there is a perfect translation
15:48:02 <quintopia> what is the french for frost or hoarfrost?
15:48:20 <boily> frost is «givre». let me check on hoarfrost...
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15:49:47 <boily> hoar frost is «gelée blanche».
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16:05:28 <mauke> #define NULL (sizeof "\??/" / sizeof "?/\?")
16:08:17 <boily> mroman_: what the trigraphing-fungot are you #defining?
16:08:19 <mroman_> I can't do an absolute jump to a 16bit address with an 8bit register and a Code Segment Register
16:08:31 <mroman_> because I can't update the Code Segment Register
16:08:40 <mroman_> and I obviously can't update *before* I take the jump
16:08:47 <mroman_> boily: A generic rotate left.
16:10:38 <boily> couldn't you, I don't know, like, maybe, #define NULL (0)?
16:12:12 <boily> once again foiled by the tab. yes, I meant mauke.
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16:12:22 * boily mapoles mauke “you vile #definer!”
16:14:03 <mroman_> having only two registers sucks .
16:17:01 <oerjan> brave sir fungot ran away
16:22:43 <mroman_> NULL is 0, but not really.
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16:26:50 <boily> fungot: is NULL 0 or not 0?
16:26:50 <fungot> boily: that's some complicated glass code? :p. ugh i need to install slime.
16:26:52 <boily> mroman_: so, what is it, then?
16:28:18 <fizzie> It's an "implementation-defined null pointer constant" hth
16:28:43 <boily> ... NULL is null. tdnh.
16:29:09 <int-e> #define (funny_type *) 0
16:29:17 <fizzie> Does it help if I add that a null pointer constant is an integer constant expression with the value 0, or such an expression cast to type void *.
16:29:17 <int-e> arg. #define NULL etc.
16:31:04 <fizzie> Or a zero cast to a void *.
16:31:14 <fizzie> If it's the latter, "int i = NULL" is not guaranteed to give you a zero in i.
16:31:43 <boily> oh. I think I now understand the nuance.
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16:32:05 <fizzie> And if it's the former, then printf("%p", NULL); might be undefined.
16:32:06 <boily> but then, you still can #define NULL (0) and get a non-zero (void *), can you?
16:32:44 <fizzie> If you mean a "not-all-bits-zero (void *)", sure.
16:33:00 <fizzie> It will compare equal to zero if it's a null pointer, of course.
16:33:18 <boily> I retract my understanding.
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16:40:38 <mroman_> printf("%p", NULL) should be undefined, yes
16:40:48 <fizzie> Depending on the implementation, it's not required to be undefined, though.
16:41:14 <mroman_> But afaik 0 is a "pointer" literal only at compile time
16:41:26 <mroman_> it's actual value at runtime is something else
16:42:43 <mauke> 0 isn't an actual value; it's source code
16:49:27 <mrhmouse> fizzie: isn't that the idea of "undefined"?
16:49:57 <fizzie> mrhmouse: There's quite a difference between implementation-defined and undefined.
16:50:39 <fizzie> In printf("%p", NULL), depending on the implementation-defined choice of how to define NULL, the behaviour is either defined or undefined.
16:51:10 <mrhmouse> it isn't undefined by specification?
16:51:48 <int-e> printf("%p",0) is undefined; printf("%p",(void *)0) is defined.
16:52:36 <mrhmouse> is NULL in the C specification, or is it just something that some implementations choose to add?
16:52:37 <fizzie> And the choice of NULL is implementation-defined, which means the implementation must document its choice.
16:52:53 <fizzie> It's in the specification.
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16:52:54 <int-e> NULL is in the C standard.
16:53:22 <fizzie> "Common definitions <stddef.h> -- The macros are NULL which expands to an implementation-defined null pointer constant; and --"
16:53:40 <mrhmouse> ah, but it isn't defined in the specification. excuse my ignorance, it's early yet :)
16:54:38 <int-e> When you get down to the details, C is not a very sane programming language.
16:55:07 <fizzie> "implementation-defined behavior: unspecified behavior where each implementation documents how the choice is made" "unspecified behavior: -- behavior where this International Standard provides two or more possibilities and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen in any instance" "undefined behavior: behavior -- for which this International Standard imposes no requirements"
16:55:57 <mrhmouse> fizzie: thank you :) that's a bit clearer
16:56:19 <int-e> printf("%p",0) *is* allowed to obtain your GPS coordinates and send a missile your way.
16:56:34 <mrhmouse> LinearInterpol: sane, or allowed to send missiles?
16:56:55 <LinearInterpol> been looking into it lately. for a systems programming language, it boasts some crazy shit.
16:57:17 <mrhmouse> I only briefly looked at Rust before being distracted by D
16:57:37 <LinearInterpol> DMD uses an outdated object format, that's enough to make me not use it.
16:57:59 <mrhmouse> (I don't use D, I just tried it out for a bit)
16:58:41 <mauke> OMF is short for OMFG
17:00:57 <mrhmouse> Ah. Hrm. I don't know enough about OMF to know what is so bad about it :P
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17:01:26 <mrhmouse> Nor do I care strongly about D.. But I am interested now, since it's apparently terrible :P
17:02:52 <int-e> LinearInterpol: You'd be surprised by how many people still fuck to this very day.
17:03:47 <mrhmouse> I'm too lazy for optional garbage collection.
17:04:03 <mrhmouse> But Rust's pointer are glorious.
17:05:38 <mrhmouse> The macros also interest me. That's about as much as I remember about Rusy
17:06:03 <LinearInterpol> a much, much better alternative than C's preprocessor macros.
17:06:08 <mrhmouse> Agreed. I prefer Scheme macros to Lisp macros, though.
17:06:45 <mrhmouse> My thoughts exactly, That's what got me using Scheme in the first place.
17:07:12 <mrhmouse> I'm using Chicken at the moment, simply because it's the one I learned with.
17:07:41 <mrhmouse> LinearInterpol: http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/2d.html
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17:22:26 <Taneb> I am trying to learn Rust
17:22:30 <Taneb> I am not very good at it
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18:47:57 <kmc> LinearInterpol: the @-boxes in Rust aren't actually garbage collected, yet
18:48:01 <kmc> they are just reference-counted
18:48:37 <kmc> in the future it's likely that Gc<T>, Rc<T>, and Arc<T> will coexist in the language (the latter is "atomic reference counting" that can be shared between threads)
18:48:42 <kmc> and there are mutable versions of each, too
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18:49:03 <kmc> any box with automatic memory management is an ownership root and so determines the mutability of its contents
18:50:08 <kmc> they would come in handy for some things I'm doing, for sure
18:50:29 <kmc> like making a generic linked list which can hold trait objects without an additional indirection
18:51:18 <kmc> it sounds like owned vectors and slices won't be subsumed by DSTs though... that is ~[T] and &[T] will still be special even if [T] is now a valid type
18:51:27 <kmc> i haven't been following the details that closely
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18:57:10 <mrhmouse> Do we have any Lispbots in the channel?
18:57:22 <kmc> fizzie: what other systems have undefined behavior, besides C?
18:57:27 <Bike> what's a lisbot
18:57:36 <kmc> C++, LLVM, electronic components
18:57:50 <mrhmouse> Bike: a bot that exthecutes Lipth code
18:58:24 <Bike> the worst joke
18:58:30 <kmc> mostly CPU architectures don't, modulo errata
18:58:54 <kmc> there are those undocumented instructions on the NMOS 6502
18:59:07 <Bike> that's not defined to be undefined, though :p
18:59:16 <boily> Bike: a lisbot is also the main protagonist of a Scandinavian book series. hth.
18:59:20 <kmc> maybe it is now!!
18:59:31 <Bike> also i'm going to try playing portal on my linux computer
18:59:35 <Bike> this gonna be good
18:59:36 <mrhmouse> boily: I finally learned what hth stands for.
18:59:48 <kmc> I suppose POSIX has undefined behavior
19:00:24 <kmc> man I need to publish that blog post before somebody scoops my trick of using read() into .text to do self modifying code
19:00:41 <Bike> because really, who doesn't want to do that.
19:01:18 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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19:01:34 <kmc> i noticed that the LED lights in my living room will glitch when somebody's using the electric stove lighter in the kitchen
19:03:35 <int-e> not fair. "An ActionScript error has occurred: TypeError: Error #1009: Cannot access a property or method of a null object reference. at BotaniculaLinux/invokeHandler()"
19:03:50 <kmc> goddamn types
19:04:31 <Bike> is that a null pointer error? i think it is
19:06:12 <boily> kmc: what is an electric stove lighter?
19:06:17 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:06:31 <kmc> er, yeah, I guess that's a bit ambiguous
19:07:06 <kmc> the stove is gas-powered but there's a circuit which makes a spark near each burner to light them
19:07:12 <Bike> " Female presenters at scientific mtgs increase 72%, when even one convener is a woman" wow
19:08:19 <Bike> oh it's a typo for convener, lol.
19:08:37 <kmc> looks like the same word to me, but anyway ,what does it meen?
19:09:01 <Bike> person convening the meeting
19:09:32 <Bike> oh, i thought it says 'covener' but it doens't. go me
19:10:14 <Bike> (http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/1/e00846-13.full)
19:11:26 <kmc> http://www.dailydot.com/politics/mpaa-joins-world-wide-web-consortium-w3c/
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19:22:35 <int-e> ... interesting. it starts up on my netbook.
19:22:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:24:59 <int-e> it also starts inside vnc, wtf.
19:50:22 <ais523> before I rebooted, shortcut keys were working, but I couldn't enter text
19:50:53 <ais523> like, the part of the system that translated keypresses to Unicode was broken, but the keyboard driver itself was fine
19:52:24 <olsner> you seem to have a special ability with keyboard problems
19:53:01 <ais523> that was system-wide, though
19:53:09 <ais523> oh, gksudo and Unity could still understand me typing
19:53:13 <ais523> presumably because they capture the keyboard
19:57:58 <boily> I wonder who of ais523 or zzo38 has the weirdest setup...
20:00:49 <boily> OpenERP lesson of the day: it's not because something is called sequence that it is a sequence, or it is called sequence. it is priority, when not being a sequence called sequence.
20:04:40 <kmc> boily: what are you using OpenERP for
20:07:29 <kmc> erp erp erp
20:10:18 * boily records kmc's call on a cassette recorder
20:12:54 <int-e> com'ere birdie birdie poot poot! ?!
20:13:28 <ion> wat http://youtu.be/aeaPanpU-iw
20:28:45 <int-e> Yay, botanicula works properly now. I had managed to disable the RANDR X11 extension.
20:29:50 <int-e> (Which is odd; the extensions that I tried to disable was XINERAMA. Oh well, the mysteries of bad software.)
20:30:44 <int-e> it's probably AMD's fault somehow :)
20:40:44 <fizzie> RANDR exports the multi-screen geometry via the Xinerama protocol, so it's not like those are completely separate things.
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21:20:16 <boily> fizzie: it's still AMD's fault.
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21:23:41 <metasepia> CYUL 072100Z 23024G38KT 15SM SCT080 SCT130 BKN240 M14/M23 A2982 RMK AC3AC1CI3 SLP103
21:23:47 <boily> bleh. still windy.
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21:39:37 <fizzie> The weather people are saying that winter will come here on Friday.
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22:07:51 <mauke> http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/71646704753
22:19:04 <mrhmouse> this one is still my favorite: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/71300641964/the-truth-of-the-matter-is-that-in-a-language
22:21:38 <Slereah> "And the God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to go forth, this is the normal state of affairs in conventional compiler-based language systems such as C."
22:21:46 <Slereah> Oh why hast thou forsaken me god!
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22:22:22 <kmc> somebody should do this for KJV and ISO 9899
22:22:47 <Slereah> The Quran and Gravitation by Misner Wheeler and Thorpe
22:22:56 <Slereah> The Book of the Dead and the Origin of Species
22:23:24 * oerjan recalls Gravitation as that book with the suspiciously self-describing name
22:23:26 <kmc> whenever I saw that (impressively thick) _Gravitation_ book in the campus bookstore I would pick it up and drop it a few feet
22:23:41 <Slereah> Gravitation is pretty thick
22:23:48 <Slereah> Though not the thickest science book around
22:23:50 <kmc> fucking gravity, how does it work?
22:23:54 <kmc> turns out nobody's quite sure
22:23:56 <Slereah> It's no Handbook of Physics and Chemistry
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22:24:07 <oerjan> the quran, on the other hand, is not so big iirc
22:24:25 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation_(manga) I guess it is impressively thick?
22:24:30 <oerjan> maybe do the talmud instead.
22:25:07 <oerjan> Fiora: wrong reference hth
22:25:16 <kmc> "impressively thick" brings something else to mind when we're talking about yaoi
22:25:29 <Slereah> Yaoi has impressively big hands
22:25:43 <kmc> eh think yaoi is a pretty cool guy
22:25:52 <Slereah> http://bigyaoihandsyndrome.tumblr.com/
22:25:59 <kmc> not clicking that at work
22:26:12 <Slereah> There isn't much naughtiness
22:26:18 <Slereah> Though there are barechested dudes
22:27:31 <Slereah> "And Jacob called the name of the variable, preceded by a question mark."
22:28:20 <Taneb> Slereah, I know the chap who runs King James Programming
22:29:05 <kmc> Taneb: say hi for me, also tell him to do King James ISO 9899
22:29:30 * kmc wonders if "chap" and "bloke" would ever be gender-neutral the way that en_US "guy" sometimes is
22:29:57 <Taneb> I'm starting to use "chap" more and more gender neutral
22:30:03 <Slereah> i believe ladies are "hags" in good ol' britain
22:30:15 <Taneb> Slereah, he says he doesn't have evidence that he isn't Moses
22:30:28 <kmc> who wants a banger in the mouth
22:30:54 <Taneb> Slereah, either that, or asking if you'd like a sausage
22:31:19 <Taneb> Take that as you will
22:32:22 <Slereah> Gravitation is a great book
22:32:27 <Slereah> but it is a terrible textbook
22:32:34 <Slereah> It's even worst than a Feynman book
22:32:50 <kmc> i'm just quoting a TV show
22:33:11 <Slereah> It's the kind of textbook with no fucking structure
22:33:18 <kmc> much like spacetime
22:33:34 <Slereah> Spacetime has so much fucking structure man
22:41:26 * oerjan wraps up kmc in a ricci tensor
22:42:09 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same ...
22:42:27 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1680 OGHAM SPACE MARK] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO]
22:42:47 <shachaf> > text (filter isSpace ['\0'..])
22:43:10 <kmc> `unidecode
22:43:29 <kmc> but where's INVISIBLE THAMES
22:43:31 <shachaf> > let f x = x^2; x = 3 in f x
22:46:41 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
22:47:02 <Taneb> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
22:48:38 <kmc> `unidecode \
22:48:57 <HackEgo> 1143) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
22:49:31 <kmc> obligatory complaint that ꙮ is Letter, Other
22:49:39 <kmc> but still that's an awesome poem :)
22:49:47 <nooodl_> reminds me of my unicode poetry days
22:49:53 <kmc> yeah I was looking that up the other day
22:50:03 <kmc> wanted to see if `unidecode had all the characters but it hasn't :(
22:50:09 <mauke> "you can't spell sweden without wede"
22:50:34 <nooodl_> `unicode MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN
22:50:40 <nooodl_> `unicode HIRAGANA LETTER YA
22:50:45 <nooodl_> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:50:53 <oerjan> i guess if chaucer did weed he might spell it that way
22:51:24 <nooodl_> i don't know the limerick anymore. something about mathematical bold digit seven
22:52:13 <shachaf> SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is the best code point
22:52:50 <nooodl_> it really is. as if it was made to be the last line of a haiku
22:52:56 <oerjan> the SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW lived in INVISIBLE TIMES
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> KANGXI RADICAL WHITE
22:53:14 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:53:15 <kmc> 18:13 < nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
22:53:29 <kmc> "may you live in invisible times"
22:53:56 <oerjan> kmc: that's what i think every time
22:54:09 <kmc> `unidecode や⛄
22:54:11 <HackEgo> [U+DA7C DUNNO] [U+DC28 DUNNO] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
22:54:18 <kmc> fucking screen
22:54:57 <HackEgo> [U+D83C DUNNO] [U+DC28 DUNNO] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
22:55:14 <mauke> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=%F0%9F%80%A8%E3%82%84%E2%9B%84
22:55:40 <oerjan> oh so `unicode supports characters `unidecode doesn't
22:55:50 <mauke> unicode.html does both
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22:56:18 <oerjan> mauke: i think the point was to try to get HackEgo to cite the poem
22:56:34 * kmc realizes that "tile" is only debatably one syllable
22:56:40 <kmc> stupid english
22:56:52 <kmc> if we were writing in Hangul we wouldn't have this problem!!!!
22:57:27 <kmc> oerjan: I though it failed because I'm IRCing through GNU Screen which doesn't do non-BMP chars
22:57:47 <shachaf> have you considered using something that isn't GNU Screen
22:58:12 <oerjan> kmc: well you did not paste the right character, but `unidecode didn't handle the right character either.
22:58:25 <kmc> /bin/sh: 1: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
22:59:02 <kmc> /exec -o is always a game of Russian roulette
22:59:14 <HackEgo> [U+4DC0 HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN] [U+D835 DUNNO] [U+DFD5 DUNNO] [U+2F69 KANGXI RADICAL WHITE] [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DEA6 DUNNO] [U+24EB NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN]
22:59:24 <mauke> yeah, those are surrogate pairs
22:59:41 <kmc> $`unidecode \xf0\x9f\x80\xa8\xe3\x82\x84\xe2\x9b\x84
22:59:55 <kmc> oh i bet my sh isn't bash or some shit
23:00:09 <oerjan> kmc: btw i'm irc'ing through tmux and am having no problem.
23:03:00 <shachaf> http://andrej.com/fan.html
23:03:17 <shachaf> maybe i'll create an andrej bauer fan club
23:03:39 <kmc> maybe i'll create an andrej bauer fan club creators fan club
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23:14:15 <shachaf> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cangiuli/sigbovik/unintentional.pdf
23:16:45 <kmc> Γ ⊢ FIXME: are these equal?
23:18:32 <shachaf> see also cited http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rjsimmon/random/bovik2007.pdf
23:19:57 <shachaf> good introduction and elimination rules
23:31:21 <Taneb> http://kjprejects.tumblr.com/
23:32:34 <kmc> King James ISO 9899 doooo it
23:32:47 <Taneb> I'm not in charge!
23:32:52 <kmc> but you Know A Guy
23:33:10 <Taneb> There's... not any difference
23:34:25 <Bike> and so it came to pass that signed overflow??
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