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00:25:10 <Sgeo> Might start using my tumblr again
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00:39:35 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/73356360201/the-limit-of-extensible-programming-languages-culture
00:46:45 <oerjan> Sgeo: s/its/it's/, s/instant/instance/
00:50:12 <Sgeo> oerjan: erp, thanks
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01:01:55 <Sgeo> Another criticism of Kernel: Applicatives that return operatives do not seem likely to stand out visually
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02:09:18 <Sgeo> 'A pet project of the wiki is the "secularized language" page (a massive example of Personal Dictionary). One of the "secularized words" is "secular." A good citizen should substitute "pagan" every time.'
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02:32:09 <Bike> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-01-14#195925
02:33:07 <quintopia> fuck that's a long time to be down
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03:20:25 <oerjan> hmph i got another set of personally targeted discount coupons from the chain i shop at, and it was strangely annoyingly timed.
03:20:57 <oerjan> as in, it has discounts for several products i only buy rarely, and _did_ buy today or yesterday.
03:21:43 <oerjan> i guess none of the products really spoil, though...
03:22:28 <oerjan> (coupons have to be used within 2-3 weeks)
03:26:57 <oerjan> it's a bit like if they've estimated when i needed to buy more, and got it just a couple days too late :P
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03:37:30 <Sgeo> I think kmc is severely influencing my thought patterns. I blame kmc for making me think of a language's culture as being as or more significant than what the language can do
03:38:17 <oerjan> we shall have to ban him for this, then.
03:38:56 <Bike> gee, too bad he already left
03:39:28 <HackEgo> 2014-01-14 02:16:30: <kmc> now i want a knitting machine, knitting machines are the new 3D printers
03:39:57 <oerjan> i shall assuming he just had a horrible knitting machine accident.
03:40:01 <Sgeo> Also, starting to think Kernel Lisp may be fatally flawed
03:40:08 <Sgeo> Need to think a bit more about it though
03:40:43 * oerjan swats Sgeo for influencing him to think all languages are fatally flawed -----###
03:40:57 <Sgeo> Although really, what else would you expect from a language that thinks the identity function is the Devil?
03:41:03 <Bike> flaws are the spice of life.
03:41:23 <Sgeo> Bike: I'm being a bit silly, but (unwrap id) == $quote
03:41:32 <Bike> yes that is silly
03:42:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write some code down to get my thoughts in order
03:45:11 <Bike> if i was going to think about languages i'd think about how it's interesting that common lisp and kernel have totally opposed design philosophies but are reasonably similar, but then i'd be thinking about nerd shit
03:45:40 <Sgeo> You're in #esoteric, home of nerd shit
03:46:13 <elliott> next persno to say nerd shit gets banned. you think I'm joking
03:46:22 <elliott> um by that I mean nerd shit, not "nerd shit"
03:46:28 <Bike> I thought this was a channel for magic. Sorry. Have a good day
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03:47:22 <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:48:54 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:48:58 <HackEgo> 1160) <elliott> I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows.
03:51:50 <pikhq> Pokemon trading confuses me right now.
03:51:56 <pikhq> I traded a Rattata for a Scizor.
03:55:03 <oerjan> annoying thing: when you google for the definition of a phrase, the first page is full of dictionary links, and not a _single_ one of them contains the actual definition in the quoted text.
03:56:25 <lambdabot> *** "bugle" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:56:27 <lambdabot> n 1: a brass instrument without valves; used for military calls
03:56:31 <lambdabot> 2: any of various low-growing annual or perennial evergreen
03:56:35 <lambdabot> *** "blast" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:58:05 <oerjan> i guess it might not really be a combined phrase anyway
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04:18:25 <oklopol> so i just got an email from the wolfram people
04:18:41 <oklopol> they want to show me that my work can be done better using mathematica
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04:19:44 <oklopol> if i send them a short description of what i'm doing, the tools i'm using, and any relevant code, their experts will check if it can be done in an easier and more cost-effective way using their tools
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04:22:11 <oklopol> if i send them python code with decision properties for dynamical properties of cellular automata, maybe they'll add that stuff to mathematica?
04:23:11 <oerjan> you'd think mathematica would be good for cellular automata
04:23:13 <oklopol> so about the wolfram group
04:23:40 <oklopol> you can't check if a CA is surjective or injective, for example
04:23:55 <oklopol> which is like the most common operation
04:24:15 <oerjan> well istr that's undecidable for >= 2d
04:24:28 <oklopol> i know, my supervisor proved that
04:24:51 <oklopol> but, so about the wolfram group, they have this journal called journal of cellular automata
04:25:12 <oklopol> which was started, i don't know, couple of decades ago
04:26:24 <oklopol> this will continue soon :D
04:27:12 <oklopol> well anyway, it used to be this okay journal
04:28:21 <coppro> I hate proofs that seem like they're fake because they don't cover enough cases
04:28:22 <oklopol> things are getting pretty wtf
04:28:25 <oklopol> http://www.oldcitypublishing.com/JCA/JCAcontents/JCAv8n3-4contents.html
04:29:14 <oklopol> is about what the title says
04:29:52 <oklopol> it's proved that xor solves parity if the tape is periodic with period 2^n
04:31:10 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 60 ""
04:31:14 <oklopol> now, the proof is as follows: if you start with a single 1, by well known properties of binary coefficients, after 2^n steps you get two 1s, 2^n apart. by linearity, if you have period 2^n, this eliminates the first one.
04:31:36 <oerjan> hm that only uses 2 cells
04:32:37 <oklopol> but anyway it's ridiculous that a journal would publish that
04:34:49 <oklopol> basically the journal of cellular automata published something that is trivial to everyone who knows the basics of cellular automata, with a long obscure proof
04:35:25 <oerjan> after 2^n-1 steps you get a row of 2^n 1's, iirc
04:35:28 <oklopol> (afaik, the author is a student of the editor, but that could be just a rumor.)
04:35:42 <oklopol> i don't recall the details, just that it's trivial
04:35:43 <oerjan> which i'd think is more relevant for computing parity
04:35:57 <oklopol> the two 1s made little sense
04:36:15 <oerjan> clearly i should have published this years ago when i thought of the same thing :P
04:36:50 <oklopol> it's not even close to publishable
04:37:43 <oklopol> i mean people from our community have articles in there
04:38:46 <oerjan> don't worry, it'll balance out by making phantom_hoover happy hth
04:39:10 <Sgeo> Is the thing that ais523 and I proved considered trivial to everyone who knows the basics of ... is it CA or something else?
04:39:39 <Sgeo> I think that any bounded CA... I kind of forget
04:39:57 <oklopol> like, "periodic boundary condition"?
04:40:09 <Sgeo> GoL or similar, on a torus or with an edge
04:40:34 <oklopol> usually the theory works best on a torus
04:40:47 <oerjan> that thing about having a garden of eden?
04:41:05 <oerjan> iirc that was probably a bit too simple to be publishable
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04:41:32 <oerjan> although i don't quite recall the prerequisites
04:41:44 <oklopol> well one trivial thing to anyone who knows the basics of set theory is that invertible = surjective = bijective, in this case
04:41:54 <Sgeo> "01:12:23: <oerjan> basically, because of the hole you know that its immediate descendant has at least two possible parents"
04:42:21 <Sgeo> 01:12:59: <Sgeo> If the pattern results in a loop, then only one of those patterns is in the loop (I'm a bit shaky on that part)
04:42:21 <oklopol> which is the only thing that garden of eden suggested to me
04:42:33 <oerjan> oklopol: you know, not only must it be trivial, but wolfram himself must have seen it when calculating all those elementary automaton pictures.
04:42:43 <oerjan> (the thing in the journal)
04:45:10 <oerjan> (back in the 80's or so)
04:46:11 <oerjan> well garden of eden exists ~ not surjective
04:46:24 <oklopol> yeah i think he would turn in his grave, or car or whatever, if he saw that one (i doubt he's very much involved in it)
04:46:47 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but if Sgeo and ais523 had proved that, i would be very surprised
04:46:52 <oerjan> oh now i remember, "every pattern either is periodic or has a garden of eden ancestor"
04:47:44 <oklopol> well that's a good observation, and it's the starting point of many a proof
04:47:52 <Sgeo> That sounds familiar, but you need a hole
04:48:16 <oerjan> well you need some finiteness condition
04:48:18 <oklopol> i mean good observation about functions on sets, not really about CA
04:48:21 <Sgeo> Well, wrong terminology, but a place where a cell can be either alive or dead without affecting the next generation
04:49:11 <oklopol> i don't know what you need that for, maybe i'm misunderstanding the result
04:49:25 <oerjan> oh wait i think maybe we avoided the finiteness
04:50:00 <Sgeo> Pretty sure the statement involved being bounded, either on a torus or with edges
04:50:01 <oerjan> by using "lightspeed" and comparing size of boundary to the whole set
04:50:31 <oerjan> well i'm probably mixing together several statements
04:50:55 <oklopol> then, on the face of it, it should in particular be true for all surjective CA that all patterns are periodic
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04:51:38 <oerjan> hm i think periodic may not have been part of the statement
04:51:53 <oklopol> surjective CA are recurrent
04:52:25 <oklopol> for any pattern of size n, after 2^n or so steps you will have found that same pattern in the same position
04:52:59 <oklopol> (but that's the only way i know for proving it)
04:53:47 <oerjan> maybe the theorem was on a bounded thing anyway
04:54:17 <Sgeo> oklopol: um, that's blatantly untrue? CA: Every cell dies
04:55:07 <oklopol> in particular, a configuration is either in the limit set (and the CA is surjective on the limit set, and the result applies here too so it is recurrent) and thus has itself as an "ancestor", or it's not in the limit set, and for some n, every nth preimage is a garden of eden
04:55:43 <shachaf> if you accept the axiom of choice then (f .) is injective iff (. f) is surjective, and vice versa??
04:56:14 <oklopol> for the first one, you don't need AoC afaik
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04:56:55 <oklopol> for the second one neither?
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04:57:16 <shachaf> "vice versa" meaning (. f) is injective iff (f .) is surjective
04:57:17 <oklopol> isn't it more the split epis and split monos that need AoC
04:57:59 <oklopol> in Set, (. f) is injective if and only if f is injective, no?
04:58:11 <shachaf> (f .) is injective iff f is injective
04:58:18 <shachaf> (. f) is injective iff f is surjective
04:58:41 <oklopol> yes, so you are asking if injective = surjective, in Set, if we assume AoC?
04:59:04 <oklopol> okay now i see where the trouble is.
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05:02:20 <oklopol> to me, it seems (. f) is surjective implies that f is injective without choice, and <= also without choice
05:02:32 <oklopol> maybe i'm blerping somehow
05:03:13 <shachaf> Yes, you don't need choice for that one.
05:03:46 <shachaf> You need it for (f .) is surjective iff (. f) is injective
05:03:59 <shachaf> I.e. (f .) is surjective iff f is surjective
05:04:41 <oklopol> that does sound choicy for that
05:04:42 <shachaf> And in particular for the ← direction.
05:06:43 <shachaf> (f .) is surjective means that f has a right inverse
05:08:30 <oklopol> that's what i mean by split epi
05:10:17 <shachaf> not sure where the name "split" came from
05:10:56 <oklopol> we are trying to publish a decision procedure for split epicness of CA :P (it's not the only result in the paper, but anyway)
05:16:54 <oklopol> (let's say, for whether they are split epi onto their image, since it's actually trivial if you take the whole configuration space as both domain and codomain)
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06:33:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c.
06:34:17 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Perhaps we were just eating them wrong.
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06:38:11 <Sgeo> o...k.... the person who recruited me is now following me on Twitter
06:42:29 <oklopol> recruiter: Sgeo sucks at playing the piano!
06:42:38 <oklopol> i took a wild guess at your professoin
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13:31:42 <boily> good clear morning!
13:34:09 <fizzie> Good /clear afternoon, for all your "I can't stand to look at this channel" needs.
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13:41:10 <int-e> Personally I find /part more effective.
13:48:40 <fizzie> I guess, but then you don't see if it gets better.
14:10:26 <oklopol> int-e: you need both, /part only erases the future.
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14:52:12 <boily> there should be an /obliterate command that erases the Universe.
14:53:37 <fizzie> Since it's a well-known fact that this channel is mostly about self-balancing unicycles: http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/11/onewheel-self-balancing-skateboard-test-drive-video/
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15:29:38 <int-e> boily: many people seem to be satisfied with /suicide
15:31:15 <int-e> mauke: horrible, horrible pun. you should be ashamed!
15:40:46 <FreeFull> You should beware of the \ from horrible puns.
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15:56:34 <boily> unicode is humourless. you can't joke with unicode. unicode is the Law that Binds the Universe together.
16:13:50 <HackEgo> [U+1434 CANADIAN SYLLABICS POO]
16:14:18 <HackEgo> [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DCA9 DUNNO]
16:14:43 <FreeFull> Seems HackEgo's unidecode doesn't handle characters outside the BMP
16:15:18 <boily> it's a well known fact, due to the python2ness of the script.
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16:17:23 <mauke> if it's possible in javascript, it should be possible in python2 too
16:18:54 <boily> mauke: it should, but it won't. python 2.7 is linked against unicode data 5.2.0, and 3.3 against 6.1.0.
16:19:13 <mauke> javascript isn't "linked" against anything
16:21:07 <FreeFull> I don't know if it's defined if Javascript uses UCS-2 or UTF-16
16:22:05 <mauke> I'm not sure what that even means
16:23:02 <FreeFull> Well, UCS-2 won't handle anything outside the BMP either
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16:25:11 <mauke> I refer you to http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=%F0%9F%92%A9
16:29:24 <FreeFull> Modern browsers will use UTF-16, naturally
16:30:40 <FreeFull> "A conforming implementation of this International standard shall interpret characters in conformance with the Unicode Standard, Version 3.0 or later and ISO/IEC 10646-1 with either UCS-2 or UTF-16 as the adopted encoding form, implementation level 3. If the adopted ISO/IEC 10646-1 subset is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be the BMP subset, collection 300. If the adopted encoding form is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be
16:31:00 <FreeFull> I guess that means that UCS-2 and UTF-16 are both valid, but UTF-16 is preferred
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16:47:15 <HackEgo> Man: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:47:32 <Man> hello buddy
16:47:43 <Man> first time in this channel
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16:49:52 <boily> this channel is... well... it is a channel. we think. it has people in it, except for the bots, and those who don't clearly fit in these categories.
16:50:58 <Man> I love esoteric things
16:51:46 <metasepia> CYUL 151600Z 13006KT 15SM BKN033 OVC060 01/M03 A2988 RMK SC6SC2 SLP120
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16:54:21 <Man> is that esoteric thing? ;)
16:55:09 <mauke> looks like weather
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16:56:28 <Man> looks like some serial number of a software
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17:18:00 <int-e> the easiest bit is this: 01/M03 is temperatures
17:18:09 <int-e> (temperature and dew point)
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17:18:38 <int-e> I learned that googling "metar" btw. You can do that, too ;-)
17:18:54 <metasepia> LOWI 151650Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW015 SCT023 BKN100 03/00 Q1013 R08/19//68 NOSIG
17:19:35 <int-e> nice, three layers of clouds.
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17:58:42 <metasepia> ESSA 151750Z 04008KT 9999 FEW021 SCT026 M07/M09 Q1018 R01L/710167 R08/710164 R01R/710180 NOSIG
18:05:10 <metasepia> EFHK 151750Z 04009KT 9999 SCT040 M12/M13 Q1020 NOSIG
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18:53:03 <mrhmouse> I don't know that we properly explained it last time, but this is a channel for esoteric programming languages :)
18:57:47 <Man> what language is it? what is this needed for?
18:59:13 <mrhmouse> Perhaps http://esolangs.org can explain that a bit better than me.
18:59:26 <boily> Man: they are needed for the need they are needed for.
19:00:23 <Man> I thought it is a channel where people are used to esoteric things.
19:00:43 <Man> used to talk I meant
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19:04:35 <boily> darn. and for once we had a newcomer who didn't immediately scamper off, or is a misguided hispanophone...
19:06:00 <mrhmouse> well, he scampered off and then came back.
19:06:23 <mrhmouse> and the away she scampered again.
19:07:38 <boily> she? but they were calling themselves “Man”.
19:08:50 <mrhmouse> that doesn't imply much, though.
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19:37:24 <ais523> do any of you have some interesting cyclic tag programs handy?
19:37:34 <ais523> in particular, I'm interested in one for which it's unknown whether or not it halts
20:04:39 <nooodl> ais523: how hard is converting turing machines to cyclic tag?
20:05:02 <ais523> nooodl: it's been done, that's how they were proved TC
20:05:09 <ais523> I don't know the turing machine → tag machine part of the construction, though
20:06:16 <ais523> Wikipedia has a tag machine that calculates the Collatz sequence
20:06:30 <ais523> which is vaguely interesting, I guess
20:06:32 <shachaf> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bdfl9_-CQAAY3It.jpg:large
20:06:42 <shachaf> oops, on-topic discussion, sorry
20:07:59 <nooodl> god. apparently this page lists 40-something 5-state 2-symbol turing machines whose halting is unknown, but http://skelet.ludost.net/bb/nreg.html
20:08:16 <nooodl> i don't understand it at all...
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20:08:45 <oklopol> isn't the point that no one understands them
20:10:22 <nooodl> don't understand the page. it lists a bunch of machines but doesn't say if they're "HNR" but gives a "HNR_count" for the whole list? maybe it's the "----" ones?
20:10:26 <oklopol> can't say i recall how cyclic tag systems simulate turing machines
20:11:18 <oklopol> the basic idea of the naive constructions is prolly that you have a configuration of a tm as the word, and you keep moving the first thing to the end until you see the head and there you do a bit of rewriting while moving it to the end
20:11:44 <oklopol> and this is trivial except for the fact that cyclic tag systems are sort of restricted so you have to be really careful
20:12:33 <oklopol> there's prolly more sophisticated ways (and possibly what i said doesn't work)
20:14:09 <nooodl> also i guess a (5,2) machine might be potentially very long! (as a cyclic tag program)
20:15:17 <oklopol> there was a guy talking about some construction of his
20:15:41 <oklopol> afaiu it was the currently "best" way to simulate turing machines with cyclic tag systems
20:16:34 <oklopol> for example he needed it for this, since the old ways were too slow http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11786986_13#page-1
20:17:02 <oklopol> and one part of his construction is to take a cyclic tag system and convert it to another kind of tag system
20:17:26 <oklopol> or some sort of tag systems to another kind anyway
20:17:42 <oklopol> and it's asymptotically fast, but he converted something like a tag system that just copies bits from one end to another
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20:25:26 <HackEgo> DTSCode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:48:44 <shachaf> kmc: whoa,, new stripe ctf
21:01:35 <fizzie> ITYM "whoa, a third shirt opportunity"
21:03:27 <coppro> ugh, this is annoying, my voice is not liking me this week
21:12:57 <boily> coppro: loss of voice?
21:13:23 * boily asks the Prophetic Cuttlefish... “will I be able to do XLS exports from OpenERP?”
21:13:24 <metasepia> Your divination: "Articulating" to "Articulating"
21:13:35 <boily> go fungot yourself, you...
21:13:35 <fungot> boily: where's the code?
21:13:56 <boily> fungot: deeply munged across multiple undocumented, uncommented, unmaintained obscure modules.
21:13:57 <fungot> boily: i don't care about the output
21:14:11 <boily> fungot: me neither, but the client does.
21:14:12 <fungot> boily: at least he is a fnord it's a package and the other which gets called by the first person should just get a fair share of odd looks?)
21:14:34 <mrhmouse> fungot gets all the odd looks. and the even looks.
21:14:34 <boily> fungot: incidentally, just having a first name can crash OE in interesting manners.
21:14:34 <fungot> mrhmouse: it's made functionally thuogh if you're going for speed, either, due to a quality i have. i think it was
21:14:35 <fungot> boily: mandatory to attain choir since i was supposed to give with it was between the pages of some net stores like verkkokauppa, but you'd have a heck of a time
21:15:03 <mrhmouse> boily: don't worry; you are going to have a heck of a time.
21:17:50 <boily> mrhmouse: the time is like heck. my brains are now devoid of nutrients, and feel like lime and coconut flavoured slush. the duck can't cover the extension. I will not sleep here tonight. Home also I cannot go.
21:18:21 <boily> (A voice, sweetened and sustained, called to him from the sea.)
21:19:24 <metasepia> Your divination: "Parting" to "Open"
21:19:47 <boily> mrhmouse: the only fragments I read come from the fortunes I installed on this machine.
21:20:23 <mrhmouse> Ha. I haven't seen any come across on my machine. But then, my fortunes are polluted with ponies.
21:20:42 <coppro> boily: no, too much singing
21:21:00 <boily> mrhmouse: I have dirty limericks with ponies :D
21:21:22 <mrhmouse> boily: I'm not interested in Greek literature
21:21:48 <boily> mrhmouse: I read the Odyssey. it was good.
21:22:21 <mrhmouse> is that with the cyclops whose eye is put out? I was a terrible student.
21:22:21 <boily> coppro: what kind of?
21:23:08 <boily> mrhmouse: it was with the cyclops, with the sirens, with Charybdis and Scylla, with gods and not-quite-gods...
21:23:43 <metasepia> Your divination: "Coupling" to "Small Accumulating"
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21:54:02 <ion> There’s a Finnish company literally named “SS ovens” http://www.kauppalehti.fi/yritykset/yritys/tmi+ss+uunit/15856725
21:55:06 <fizzie> The ever-so-popular "KKK" shops also sometimes raise some eyebrows.
21:55:21 <fizzie> Though I think their logo these days only uses a single "K".
21:56:39 <fizzie> Yes, it's gone from https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgS7oMY5Zm4QDiYkY9S7pNPCpVqJ10KenrYlxfwNWhq2M2SEjr6Q to oh god, I can't paste this, it's a data:image/jpeg;base64,... URL
21:57:06 <fizzie> s|oh.*|http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:K-supermarketin_logo.svg|
21:57:47 <ion> Where is it a data URI? A canvas element?
21:58:10 <fizzie> The Google image search thumbnail, after open-image-in-new-tab.
21:58:34 <fizzie> Apparently it's sometimes a gstatic.com link like the first one, and at other times a data:, presumably depending on size.
21:58:44 <FreeFull> K supermarket, does it have anything to do with KDE?
21:59:39 <fizzie> FreeFull: Sadly, no. (The "K" comes from "Kesko", the company running all K-extras, K-markets, K-supermarkets and K-citymarkets.
22:00:00 <fizzie> Which used to be denoted "K", "KK", "KKK" and "KKKK".)
22:00:18 <FreeFull> KKKK, 4/3 times as racist as the KKK
22:02:13 <ion> fizzie: Interesting
22:02:21 <ion> (Google using data: like that, that is)
22:02:42 <ion> assuming it’s not a canvas element for some reason
22:02:52 <fizzie> Are you saying the ins and outs of Finnish grocery store chains are not interesting!?
22:04:26 <fizzie> When I inspect-element these things, they *all* seem to be <img src="data:...">.
22:05:06 <fizzie> Oh, there's the one I first linked to, that indeed is not.
22:05:48 <fizzie> It has some custom "data-src" and "data-sz" attributes too.
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22:25:26 <FreeFull> ion: I think more browsers support data: than canvas
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22:32:56 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 59m 1s ago: That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c.
22:32:56 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 58m 38s ago: Perhaps we were just eating them wrong.
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22:36:02 <ais523> oerjan: I guess we're using different definitions of program
22:36:43 <oerjan> well if yours take no input, then equivalent is just having the same result/output
22:37:16 <ais523> the problem being that you can't necessarily calculate that because they might not provably terminate
22:37:37 <oerjan> right, but primitive recursive programs always terminate.
22:38:31 <ais523> that's why equivalence is decidable
22:38:44 <ais523> I wasn't trying to claim that this result was somehow interesting
22:43:47 <oerjan> <shachaf> not sure where the name "split" came from <oklopol> i have no idea <-- i have heard it in the case of module categories, where a split exact sequence is essentially an injection and an epimorphism that together split the middle module into a direct sum.
22:44:21 <oerjan> so it's probably inherited from there.
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22:46:31 <oerjan> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma
22:47:33 <lambdabot> PenguinOfDoom says: Being enlightened gentlemen, we split all programming languages into two groups, sucks and doesn't-suck and put all of them into the first group.
22:47:40 <shachaf> these lemmas are always creatively named
22:47:42 <oerjan> @tell oklopol the name is probably from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma
22:47:47 <lambdabot> slava says: Because top enterprise industry analysts recommend that managers need to focus on Agile methodologies, SOA, B2B and Yoneda's lemma in today's rich internet application-driven environment. Don't get left behind by the AJAX craze by missing out on call center outsourcing and Yoneda's lemma!
22:48:19 <shachaf> especially ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_lemma
22:48:28 <shachaf> and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_lemma
22:48:39 <oerjan> i learned recently that there are n^2 lemmas in general iirc
22:49:04 <shachaf> yep, see the bottom of the page
22:50:29 <ais523> oerjan: well the number of lemmas, at any given time, is finite
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22:50:36 <ais523> but presumably it increases frequently
22:50:47 <ais523> so it's unlikely to be a square number at any given moment in time
22:51:02 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, do you know what i'm trying to ask in https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ShachafBen-Kiki/posts/Bt4CxtttYxP
22:51:26 <oerjan> ais523: i mean that there is a sequence of lemmas analogous to the nine lemma, but with n^2 items in the diagram.
22:54:04 <oerjan> shachaf: to be fair, i don't recall learning the splitting lemma with a name originally.
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23:00:03 <oerjan> shachaf: can't think of anything nontrivial (e.g. distributive lattice)
23:01:04 <oerjan> i don't quite see the sense in which RE = open fits better than RE = closed
23:01:44 <ais523> btw, my question about interesting cyclic tag programs
23:01:51 <ais523> was because I want an interesting example for my new esolang
23:02:58 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mean that you think closed fits better or just that they both seem to make equal sense?
23:04:00 <shachaf> well, if we only allow finite unions and intersections then the definition is symmetric
23:04:14 <shachaf> so it would work either way
23:04:23 <oerjan> aka distributive lattice
23:04:33 <shachaf> my rough intuition is "open set ~ semidecidable predicate"
23:05:01 <shachaf> but i bet i don't really know what this thing is like
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23:50:59 <shachaf> oerjan: so every finite topology has a dual topology
23:58:02 <oerjan> i find none on browsing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_topological_space