00:18:48 -!- kfriede has joined. 00:21:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:23:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:23:10 -!- kfriede has quit (Client Quit). 00:25:10 Might start using my tumblr again 00:28:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:37:01 -!- Bike has joined. 00:39:20 Just posted 00:39:35 http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/73356360201/the-limit-of-extensible-programming-languages-culture 00:46:45 Sgeo: s/its/it's/, s/instant/instance/ 00:46:50 hth 00:50:12 oerjan: erp, thanks 00:50:22 yw 00:50:30 -!- tromp has joined. 00:53:11 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:01:55 Another criticism of Kernel: Applicatives that return operatives do not seem likely to stand out visually 01:59:54 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:01:41 -!- peapodamus has joined. 02:09:18 'A pet project of the wiki is the "secularized language" page (a massive example of Personal Dictionary). One of the "secularized words" is "secular." A good citizen should substitute "pagan" every time.' 02:12:40 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 02:13:04 -!- Sellyme has joined. 02:24:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:25:14 -!- quintopia has joined. 02:30:52 what time did i get disconnected 02:31:52 1959 02:32:09 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-01-14#195925 02:33:07 fuck that's a long time to be down 02:50:15 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 03:20:25 hmph i got another set of personally targeted discount coupons from the chain i shop at, and it was strangely annoyingly timed. 03:20:57 as in, it has discounts for several products i only buy rarely, and _did_ buy today or yesterday. 03:21:43 i guess none of the products really spoil, though... 03:22:28 (coupons have to be used within 2-3 weeks) 03:26:57 it's a bit like if they've estimated when i needed to buy more, and got it just a couple days too late :P 03:30:56 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:34:25 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:35:50 -!- peapodamus has joined. 03:37:30 I think kmc is severely influencing my thought patterns. I blame kmc for making me think of a language's culture as being as or more significant than what the language can do 03:38:17 we shall have to ban him for this, then. 03:38:56 gee, too bad he already left 03:39:18 `seen kmc 03:39:28 2014-01-14 02:16:30: now i want a knitting machine, knitting machines are the new 3D printers 03:39:57 i shall assuming he just had a horrible knitting machine accident. 03:40:01 *assume 03:40:01 Also, starting to think Kernel Lisp may be fatally flawed 03:40:08 Need to think a bit more about it though 03:40:43 * oerjan swats Sgeo for influencing him to think all languages are fatally flawed -----### 03:40:57 Although really, what else would you expect from a language that thinks the identity function is the Devil? 03:41:03 flaws are the spice of life. 03:41:07 er, what? 03:41:23 Bike: I'm being a bit silly, but (unwrap id) == $quote 03:41:32 yes that is silly 03:42:50 Maybe I should write some code down to get my thoughts in order 03:45:11 if i was going to think about languages i'd think about how it's interesting that common lisp and kernel have totally opposed design philosophies but are reasonably similar, but then i'd be thinking about nerd shit 03:45:40 You're in #esoteric, home of nerd shit 03:45:59 thank you 03:46:07 hereby banning nerd shit 03:46:13 next persno to say nerd shit gets banned. you think I'm joking 03:46:22 um by that I mean nerd shit, not "nerd shit" 03:46:27 thank you and goodnight 03:46:28 I thought this was a channel for magic. Sorry. Have a good day 03:46:29 -!- Bike has left. 03:47:22 I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows. 03:48:54 `addquote I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows. 03:48:58 1160) I would leave, it's just... I'd have to reorganise all my irssi windows. 03:51:50 Pokemon trading confuses me right now. 03:51:56 I traded a Rattata for a Scizor. 03:55:03 annoying thing: when you google for the definition of a phrase, the first page is full of dictionary links, and not a _single_ one of them contains the actual definition in the quoted text. 03:56:22 @wn bugle blast 03:56:25 *** "bugle" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 03:56:26 bugle 03:56:27 n 1: a brass instrument without valves; used for military calls 03:56:29 and fanfares 03:56:31 2: any of various low-growing annual or perennial evergreen 03:56:33 [5 @more lines] 03:56:35 *** "blast" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 03:56:37 blast 03:56:48 wat 03:58:05 i guess it might not really be a combined phrase anyway 04:11:37 -!- mauke has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:11:47 -!- mauke has joined. 04:14:18 -!- preflex_ has joined. 04:15:47 -!- preflex has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:16:01 -!- preflex_ has changed nick to preflex. 04:16:32 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 04:17:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:18:25 so i just got an email from the wolfram people 04:18:41 they want to show me that my work can be done better using mathematica 04:19:02 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:19:44 if i send them a short description of what i'm doing, the tools i'm using, and any relevant code, their experts will check if it can be done in an easier and more cost-effective way using their tools 04:20:23 that's awesome 04:21:01 -!- peapodamus has joined. 04:21:50 OKAY! 04:22:11 if i send them python code with decision properties for dynamical properties of cellular automata, maybe they'll add that stuff to mathematica? 04:22:16 that would be pretty neat 04:23:11 you'd think mathematica would be good for cellular automata 04:23:13 so about the wolfram group 04:23:29 well it's not really 04:23:40 you can't check if a CA is surjective or injective, for example 04:23:55 which is like the most common operation 04:24:04 you need 04:24:15 well istr that's undecidable for >= 2d 04:24:28 i know, my supervisor proved that 04:24:51 but, so about the wolfram group, they have this journal called journal of cellular automata 04:25:12 which was started, i don't know, couple of decades ago 04:26:01 mhm 04:26:24 this will continue soon :D 04:27:12 well anyway, it used to be this okay journal 04:27:17 but last year 04:28:21 I hate proofs that seem like they're fake because they don't cover enough cases 04:28:22 things are getting pretty wtf 04:28:25 http://www.oldcitypublishing.com/JCA/JCAcontents/JCAv8n3-4contents.html 04:28:36 so umm 04:28:44 4th entry 04:29:14 is about what the title says 04:29:52 it's proved that xor solves parity if the tape is periodic with period 2^n 04:30:41 if I understand that right it sounds trivial 04:31:10 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 60 "" 04:31:12 "111100" 04:31:14 now, the proof is as follows: if you start with a single 1, by well known properties of binary coefficients, after 2^n steps you get two 1s, 2^n apart. by linearity, if you have period 2^n, this eliminates the first one. 04:31:36 hm that only uses 2 cells 04:31:43 sure 04:32:37 but anyway it's ridiculous that a journal would publish that 04:33:32 OKAY 04:34:49 basically the journal of cellular automata published something that is trivial to everyone who knows the basics of cellular automata, with a long obscure proof 04:35:25 after 2^n-1 steps you get a row of 2^n 1's, iirc 04:35:28 (afaik, the author is a student of the editor, but that could be just a rumor.) 04:35:34 er right 04:35:42 i don't recall the details, just that it's trivial 04:35:43 which i'd think is more relevant for computing parity 04:35:45 yes 04:35:57 the two 1s made little sense 04:36:15 clearly i should have published this years ago when i thought of the same thing :P 04:36:50 it's not even close to publishable 04:36:59 sadijfij 04:36:59 well i _am_ joking 04:37:01 i know 04:37:12 this just makes me so sad 04:37:43 i mean people from our community have articles in there 04:38:46 don't worry, it'll balance out by making phantom_hoover happy hth 04:39:10 Is the thing that ais523 and I proved considered trivial to everyone who knows the basics of ... is it CA or something else? 04:39:16 what was it? 04:39:29 ditto 04:39:39 I think that any bounded CA... I kind of forget 04:39:48 bounded CA = ? 04:39:57 like, "periodic boundary condition"? 04:40:09 GoL or similar, on a torus or with an edge 04:40:34 usually the theory works best on a torus 04:40:47 that thing about having a garden of eden? 04:40:55 oerjan: yes 04:40:59 what was it? 04:41:05 iirc that was probably a bit too simple to be publishable 04:41:23 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 04:41:32 although i don't quite recall the prerequisites 04:41:44 well one trivial thing to anyone who knows the basics of set theory is that invertible = surjective = bijective, in this case 04:41:54 "01:12:23: basically, because of the hole you know that its immediate descendant has at least two possible parents" 04:42:21 01:12:59: If the pattern results in a loop, then only one of those patterns is in the loop (I'm a bit shaky on that part) 04:42:21 which is the only thing that garden of eden suggested to me 04:42:33 oklopol: you know, not only must it be trivial, but wolfram himself must have seen it when calculating all those elementary automaton pictures. 04:42:43 (the thing in the journal) 04:43:20 yeah 04:45:10 (back in the 80's or so) 04:46:11 well garden of eden exists ~ not surjective 04:46:24 yeah i think he would turn in his grave, or car or whatever, if he saw that one (i doubt he's very much involved in it) 04:46:47 oerjan: yes, but if Sgeo and ais523 had proved that, i would be very surprised 04:46:52 oh now i remember, "every pattern either is periodic or has a garden of eden ancestor" 04:46:56 was that it 04:47:44 well that's a good observation, and it's the starting point of many a proof 04:47:52 That sounds familiar, but you need a hole 04:48:00 what's a hole? 04:48:16 well you need some finiteness condition 04:48:18 i mean good observation about functions on sets, not really about CA 04:48:21 Well, wrong terminology, but a place where a cell can be either alive or dead without affecting the next generation 04:48:22 *finite sets 04:49:11 i don't know what you need that for, maybe i'm misunderstanding the result 04:49:25 oh wait i think maybe we avoided the finiteness 04:50:00 Pretty sure the statement involved being bounded, either on a torus or with edges 04:50:01 by using "lightspeed" and comparing size of boundary to the whole set 04:50:31 well i'm probably mixing together several statements 04:50:55 then, on the face of it, it should in particular be true for all surjective CA that all patterns are periodic 04:51:05 so that sounds weird 04:51:35 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:51:37 but 04:51:38 hm i think periodic may not have been part of the statement 04:51:53 surjective CA are recurrent 04:52:25 for any pattern of size n, after 2^n or so steps you will have found that same pattern in the same position 04:52:32 (by basic measure theory) 04:52:59 (but that's the only way i know for proving it) 04:53:47 maybe the theorem was on a bounded thing anyway 04:54:17 oklopol: um, that's blatantly untrue? CA: Every cell dies 04:54:35 that's not surjective 04:54:39 Oh 04:55:07 in particular, a configuration is either in the limit set (and the CA is surjective on the limit set, and the result applies here too so it is recurrent) and thus has itself as an "ancestor", or it's not in the limit set, and for some n, every nth preimage is a garden of eden 04:55:25 whoa surjectivity 04:55:43 if you accept the axiom of choice then (f .) is injective iff (. f) is surjective, and vice versa?? 04:55:59 in what category? 04:56:14 for the first one, you don't need AoC afaik 04:56:21 and err 04:56:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:56:55 for the second one neither? 04:57:01 i mean in Set 04:57:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much math). 04:57:16 -!- tromp has joined. 04:57:16 "vice versa" meaning (. f) is injective iff (f .) is surjective 04:57:17 isn't it more the split epis and split monos that need AoC 04:57:28 in what category? 04:57:31 in all? 04:57:32 Set 04:57:39 with choice 04:57:59 in Set, (. f) is injective if and only if f is injective, no? 04:58:09 erm 04:58:11 (f .) is injective iff f is injective 04:58:16 right. 04:58:18 (. f) is injective iff f is surjective 04:58:41 yes, so you are asking if injective = surjective, in Set, if we assume AoC? 04:58:45 No. 04:58:57 ohhh 04:59:04 okay now i see where the trouble is. 04:59:15 let me think some secs 05:01:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:02:20 to me, it seems (. f) is surjective implies that f is injective without choice, and <= also without choice 05:02:32 maybe i'm blerping somehow 05:03:13 Yes, you don't need choice for that one. 05:03:46 You need it for (f .) is surjective iff (. f) is injective 05:03:59 I.e. (f .) is surjective iff f is surjective 05:04:22 oh, indeed 05:04:41 that does sound choicy for that 05:04:42 And in particular for the ← direction. 05:04:43 *-for that 05:04:47 sure 05:06:43 (f .) is surjective means that f has a right inverse 05:08:15 yes 05:08:30 that's what i mean by split epi 05:08:36 Right. 05:10:17 not sure where the name "split" came from 05:10:22 i have no idea 05:10:56 we are trying to publish a decision procedure for split epicness of CA :P (it's not the only result in the paper, but anyway) 05:16:54 (let's say, for whether they are split epi onto their image, since it's actually trivial if you take the whole configuration space as both domain and codomain) 06:28:20 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:29:57 -!- peapodamus has joined. 06:33:54 @tell oerjan That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c. 06:33:55 Consider it noted. 06:34:17 @tell oerjan Perhaps we were just eating them wrong. 06:34:18 Consider it noted. 06:34:55 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 06:37:04 -!- Sellyme has joined. 06:38:11 o...k.... the person who recruited me is now following me on Twitter 06:41:58 and perhaps here? 06:42:29 recruiter: Sgeo sucks at playing the piano! 06:42:38 i took a wild guess at your professoin 06:42:40 *profession 06:47:55 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:51:40 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:52:37 -!- mtve has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0). 07:23:28 -!- stuntaneous_f has joined. 07:23:30 -!- stuntaneous_f has quit (Excess Flood). 07:23:51 -!- stuntaneous_f has joined. 07:23:53 -!- stuntaneous_f has quit (Excess Flood). 07:27:33 -!- stuntaneous has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:28:36 -!- Sellyme has quit (Excess Flood). 07:30:03 -!- Sellyme has joined. 07:34:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 07:34:55 -!- Frooxius has joined. 07:58:27 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:00:05 -!- peapodamus has joined. 08:46:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:50:00 -!- FreeFull_ has quit. 09:34:17 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:39:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:58:10 -!- Yonkie_ has joined. 09:58:16 -!- Yonkie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:25:35 -!- mekeor has joined. 10:28:28 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Bye). 10:33:33 -!- nooga has joined. 10:43:23 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:45:06 -!- nooga has joined. 10:50:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:05:13 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 11:45:54 -!- clog has joined. 11:52:18 -!- Sorella has joined. 12:02:35 -!- stuntaneous has joined. 12:25:27 -!- atriq has joined. 12:45:33 -!- atriq has quit. 12:51:57 -!- yorick has joined. 13:02:11 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:09:56 -!- boily has joined. 13:09:57 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:12:30 -!- mekeor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:15:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:29:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 13:31:42 good clear morning! 13:34:09 Good /clear afternoon, for all your "I can't stand to look at this channel" needs. 13:39:51 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:40:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:41:10 Personally I find /part more effective. 13:48:40 I guess, but then you don't see if it gets better. 14:10:26 int-e: you need both, /part only erases the future. 14:15:52 -!- mekeor has joined. 14:26:12 -!- quintopia has joined. 14:45:25 -!- mekeor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:45:26 -!- mrhmouse has joined. 14:48:06 -!- conehead has joined. 14:49:32 -!- mekeor has joined. 14:52:12 there should be an /obliterate command that erases the Universe. 14:53:37 Since it's a well-known fact that this channel is mostly about self-balancing unicycles: http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/11/onewheel-self-balancing-skateboard-test-drive-video/ 14:54:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:10:25 heh. doerksen 15:15:47 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:16:20 -!- augur has joined. 15:18:07 -!- augur_ has joined. 15:21:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:22:30 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:29:38 boily: many people seem to be satisfied with /suicide 15:30:07 .oO( /wrists ) 15:31:15 mauke: horrible, horrible pun. you should be ashamed! 15:40:46 You should beware of the \ from horrible puns. 15:47:29 `unidecode \ 15:47:30 ​[U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] 15:48:39 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:56:34 unicode is humourless. you can't joke with unicode. unicode is the Law that Binds the Universe together. 16:13:49 `unidecode ᐴ 16:13:50 ​[U+1434 CANADIAN SYLLABICS POO] 16:14:16 `unidecode 💩 16:14:18 ​[U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DCA9 DUNNO] 16:14:43 Seems HackEgo's unidecode doesn't handle characters outside the BMP 16:15:18 it's a well known fact, due to the python2ness of the script. 16:16:28 -!- augur has joined. 16:17:23 if it's possible in javascript, it should be possible in python2 too 16:18:54 mauke: it should, but it won't. python 2.7 is linked against unicode data 5.2.0, and 3.3 against 6.1.0. 16:19:13 javascript isn't "linked" against anything 16:21:07 I don't know if it's defined if Javascript uses UCS-2 or UTF-16 16:22:05 I'm not sure what that even means 16:23:02 Well, UCS-2 won't handle anything outside the BMP either 16:24:23 -!- Man has joined. 16:24:42 -!- Man has changed nick to Dick_in_diplomat. 16:25:03 -!- Dick_in_diplomat has left. 16:25:11 I refer you to http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/javascript/unicode.html?q=%F0%9F%92%A9 16:29:24 Modern browsers will use UTF-16, naturally 16:30:40 "A conforming implementation of this International standard shall interpret characters in conformance with the Unicode Standard, Version 3.0 or later and ISO/IEC 10646-1 with either UCS-2 or UTF-16 as the adopted encoding form, implementation level 3. If the adopted ISO/IEC 10646-1 subset is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be the BMP subset, collection 300. If the adopted encoding form is not otherwise specified, it is presumed to be 16:30:47 the UTF-16 encoding form." 16:31:00 I guess that means that UCS-2 and UTF-16 are both valid, but UTF-16 is preferred 16:42:49 -!- fdsakfhjdsjkfh has joined. 16:42:54 -!- fdsakfhjdsjkfh has changed nick to Man. 16:43:09 hello 16:46:02 -!- augur_ has joined. 16:47:12 `relcome Man 16:47:15 ​Man: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:47:29 hmm 16:47:32 hello buddy 16:47:43 first time in this channel 16:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:49:52 this channel is... well... it is a channel. we think. it has people in it, except for the bots, and those who don't clearly fit in these categories. 16:50:01 * mauke <- cyborg 16:50:58 I love esoteric things 16:51:46 ~metar CYUL 16:51:46 CYUL 151600Z 13006KT 15SM BKN033 OVC060 01/M03 A2988 RMK SC6SC2 SLP120 16:52:54 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:53:30 -!- augur has joined. 16:54:21 is that esoteric thing? ;) 16:55:09 looks like weather 16:55:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:56:28 looks like some serial number of a software 16:57:11 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 16:59:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:01:07 -!- Zerker has joined. 17:10:02 -!- Man has left. 17:14:07 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)). 17:18:00 the easiest bit is this: 01/M03 is temperatures 17:18:09 (temperature and dew point) 17:18:30 -!- tromp has joined. 17:18:38 I learned that googling "metar" btw. You can do that, too ;-) 17:18:53 ~metar LOWI 17:18:54 LOWI 151650Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW015 SCT023 BKN100 03/00 Q1013 R08/19//68 NOSIG 17:19:35 nice, three layers of clouds. 17:40:23 -!- nooodl has joined. 17:51:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:58:41 ~metar ESSA 17:58:42 ESSA 151750Z 04008KT 9999 FEW021 SCT026 M07/M09 Q1018 R01L/710167 R08/710164 R01R/710180 NOSIG 18:05:10 ~metar EFHK 18:05:10 EFHK 151750Z 04009KT 9999 SCT040 M12/M13 Q1020 NOSIG 18:10:16 -!- peapodamus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:12:04 -!- peapodamus has joined. 18:38:34 -!- Man has joined. 18:39:19 hello 18:39:28 Hello again. 18:42:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:48:40 `ello Man 18:48:43 Manello 18:52:16 hello 18:53:03 I don't know that we properly explained it last time, but this is a channel for esoteric programming languages :) 18:57:47 what language is it? what is this needed for? 18:59:13 Perhaps http://esolangs.org can explain that a bit better than me. 18:59:26 Man: they are needed for the need they are needed for. 19:00:23 I thought it is a channel where people are used to esoteric things. 19:00:43 used to talk I meant 19:03:35 -!- Man has left. 19:04:35 darn. and for once we had a newcomer who didn't immediately scamper off, or is a misguided hispanophone... 19:06:00 well, he scampered off and then came back. 19:06:23 and the away she scampered again. 19:06:28 s/e/en 19:07:38 she? but they were calling themselves “Man”. 19:08:50 that doesn't imply much, though. 19:35:31 -!- mekeor has joined. 19:36:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:37:15 hi #esoteric 19:37:24 do any of you have some interesting cyclic tag programs handy? 19:37:34 in particular, I'm interested in one for which it's unknown whether or not it halts 20:04:39 ais523: how hard is converting turing machines to cyclic tag? 20:05:02 nooodl: it's been done, that's how they were proved TC 20:05:09 I don't know the turing machine → tag machine part of the construction, though 20:06:16 Wikipedia has a tag machine that calculates the Collatz sequence 20:06:30 which is vaguely interesting, I guess 20:06:32 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bdfl9_-CQAAY3It.jpg:large 20:06:42 oops, on-topic discussion, sorry 20:07:59 god. apparently this page lists 40-something 5-state 2-symbol turing machines whose halting is unknown, but http://skelet.ludost.net/bb/nreg.html 20:08:16 i don't understand it at all... 20:08:38 don't understand what? 20:08:42 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:08:45 isn't the point that no one understands them 20:10:22 don't understand the page. it lists a bunch of machines but doesn't say if they're "HNR" but gives a "HNR_count" for the whole list? maybe it's the "----" ones? 20:10:26 can't say i recall how cyclic tag systems simulate turing machines 20:11:18 the basic idea of the naive constructions is prolly that you have a configuration of a tm as the word, and you keep moving the first thing to the end until you see the head and there you do a bit of rewriting while moving it to the end 20:11:44 and this is trivial except for the fact that cyclic tag systems are sort of restricted so you have to be really careful 20:12:33 there's prolly more sophisticated ways (and possibly what i said doesn't work) 20:14:09 also i guess a (5,2) machine might be potentially very long! (as a cyclic tag program) 20:15:17 there was a guy talking about some construction of his 20:15:41 afaiu it was the currently "best" way to simulate turing machines with cyclic tag systems 20:16:34 for example he needed it for this, since the old ways were too slow http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11786986_13#page-1 20:17:02 and one part of his construction is to take a cyclic tag system and convert it to another kind of tag system 20:17:26 or some sort of tag systems to another kind anyway 20:17:42 and it's asymptotically fast, but he converted something like a tag system that just copies bits from one end to another 20:17:49 and it was like 40Mb 20:25:11 -!- DTSCode has joined. 20:25:23 `relcome DTSCode 20:25:26 ​DTSCode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:37:42 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:39:57 -!- TodPunk has joined. 20:48:44 kmc: whoa,, new stripe ctf 21:01:35 ITYM "whoa, a third shirt opportunity" 21:03:27 ugh, this is annoying, my voice is not liking me this week 21:12:57 coppro: loss of voice? 21:13:23 * boily asks the Prophetic Cuttlefish... “will I be able to do XLS exports from OpenERP?” 21:13:24 ~yi 21:13:24 Your divination: "Articulating" to "Articulating" 21:13:35 go fungot yourself, you... 21:13:35 boily: where's the code? 21:13:56 fungot: deeply munged across multiple undocumented, uncommented, unmaintained obscure modules. 21:13:57 boily: i don't care about the output 21:14:11 fungot: me neither, but the client does. 21:14:12 boily: at least he is a fnord it's a package and the other which gets called by the first person should just get a fair share of odd looks?) 21:14:34 fungot gets all the odd looks. and the even looks. 21:14:34 fungot: incidentally, just having a first name can crash OE in interesting manners. 21:14:34 mrhmouse: it's made functionally thuogh if you're going for speed, either, due to a quality i have. i think it was 21:14:35 boily: mandatory to attain choir since i was supposed to give with it was between the pages of some net stores like verkkokauppa, but you'd have a heck of a time 21:15:03 boily: don't worry; you are going to have a heck of a time. 21:17:50 mrhmouse: the time is like heck. my brains are now devoid of nutrients, and feel like lime and coconut flavoured slush. the duck can't cover the extension. I will not sleep here tonight. Home also I cannot go. 21:18:21 (A voice, sweetened and sustained, called to him from the sea.) 21:19:22 (sorry, I don't read Joyce) 21:19:24 ~yi 21:19:24 Your divination: "Parting" to "Open" 21:19:47 mrhmouse: the only fragments I read come from the fortunes I installed on this machine. 21:20:23 Ha. I haven't seen any come across on my machine. But then, my fortunes are polluted with ponies. 21:20:42 boily: no, too much singing 21:21:00 mrhmouse: I have dirty limericks with ponies :D 21:21:22 boily: I'm not interested in Greek literature 21:21:48 mrhmouse: I read the Odyssey. it was good. 21:22:21 is that with the cyclops whose eye is put out? I was a terrible student. 21:22:21 coppro: what kind of? 21:23:08 mrhmouse: it was with the cyclops, with the sirens, with Charybdis and Scylla, with gods and not-quite-gods... 21:23:39 boily: that's what I thought. 21:23:43 ~yi 21:23:43 Your divination: "Coupling" to "Small Accumulating" 21:25:05 boily: a variety 21:25:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MELODIC MYTHOLOGIC CHICKEN). 21:25:42 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:19 -!- glogbackup has joined. 21:54:02 There’s a Finnish company literally named “SS ovens” http://www.kauppalehti.fi/yritykset/yritys/tmi+ss+uunit/15856725 21:55:06 The ever-so-popular "KKK" shops also sometimes raise some eyebrows. 21:55:21 Though I think their logo these days only uses a single "K". 21:56:39 Yes, it's gone from https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgS7oMY5Zm4QDiYkY9S7pNPCpVqJ10KenrYlxfwNWhq2M2SEjr6Q to oh god, I can't paste this, it's a data:image/jpeg;base64,... URL 21:56:56 :-D 21:57:06 s|oh.*|http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:K-supermarketin_logo.svg| 21:57:47 Where is it a data URI? A canvas element? 21:58:10 The Google image search thumbnail, after open-image-in-new-tab. 21:58:34 Apparently it's sometimes a gstatic.com link like the first one, and at other times a data:, presumably depending on size. 21:58:44 K supermarket, does it have anything to do with KDE? 21:59:39 FreeFull: Sadly, no. (The "K" comes from "Kesko", the company running all K-extras, K-markets, K-supermarkets and K-citymarkets. 22:00:00 Which used to be denoted "K", "KK", "KKK" and "KKKK".) 22:00:18 KKKK, 4/3 times as racist as the KKK 22:02:13 fizzie: Interesting 22:02:21 (Google using data: like that, that is) 22:02:42 assuming it’s not a canvas element for some reason 22:02:52 Are you saying the ins and outs of Finnish grocery store chains are not interesting!? 22:04:26 When I inspect-element these things, they *all* seem to be . 22:05:06 Oh, there's the one I first linked to, that indeed is not. 22:05:48 It has some custom "data-src" and "data-sz" attributes too. 22:08:47 -!- Bike_ has joined. 22:17:48 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 22:25:26 ion: I think more browsers support data: than canvas 22:31:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:32:56 @messages-food 22:32:56 fizzie said 15h 59m 1s ago: That's just it, the Belgian ones are supposed to be the bee's knees, and the owl's whatever-body-parts, &c. 22:32:56 fizzie said 15h 58m 38s ago: Perhaps we were just eating them wrong. 22:33:46 -!- peapodamus has quit. 22:36:02 oerjan: I guess we're using different definitions of program 22:36:43 well if yours take no input, then equivalent is just having the same result/output 22:37:01 oerjan: yeah, exactly 22:37:16 the problem being that you can't necessarily calculate that because they might not provably terminate 22:37:37 right, but primitive recursive programs always terminate. 22:38:27 oerjan: exactly 22:38:31 that's why equivalence is decidable 22:38:44 I wasn't trying to claim that this result was somehow interesting 22:40:00 OKAY 22:43:47 not sure where the name "split" came from i have no idea <-- i have heard it in the case of module categories, where a split exact sequence is essentially an injection and an epimorphism that together split the middle module into a direct sum. 22:44:21 so it's probably inherited from there. 22:45:41 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:46:31 shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma 22:47:33 @quote split 22:47:33 PenguinOfDoom says: Being enlightened gentlemen, we split all programming languages into two groups, sucks and doesn't-suck and put all of them into the first group. 22:47:40 these lemmas are always creatively named 22:47:42 @tell oklopol the name is probably from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_lemma 22:47:42 Consider it noted. 22:47:46 @quote lemma 22:47:47 slava says: Because top enterprise industry analysts recommend that managers need to focus on Agile methodologies, SOA, B2B and Yoneda's lemma in today's rich internet application-driven environment. Don't get left behind by the AJAX craze by missing out on call center outsourcing and Yoneda's lemma! 22:48:19 especially ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_lemma 22:48:28 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_lemma 22:48:39 i learned recently that there are n^2 lemmas in general iirc 22:49:04 yep, see the bottom of the page 22:50:29 oerjan: well the number of lemmas, at any given time, is finite 22:50:33 -!- nchambers has joined. 22:50:36 but presumably it increases frequently 22:50:47 so it's unlikely to be a square number at any given moment in time 22:51:02 oerjan: hmm, do you know what i'm trying to ask in https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ShachafBen-Kiki/posts/Bt4CxtttYxP 22:51:26 ais523: i mean that there is a sequence of lemmas analogous to the nine lemma, but with n^2 items in the diagram. 22:51:34 right 22:54:04 shachaf: to be fair, i don't recall learning the splitting lemma with a name originally. 22:54:10 -!- DTSCode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:57:49 -!- peapodamus has joined. 23:00:03 shachaf: can't think of anything nontrivial (e.g. distributive lattice) 23:01:04 i don't quite see the sense in which RE = open fits better than RE = closed 23:01:44 btw, my question about interesting cyclic tag programs 23:01:51 was because I want an interesting example for my new esolang 23:02:58 oerjan: do you mean that you think closed fits better or just that they both seem to make equal sense? 23:03:35 equal 23:04:00 well, if we only allow finite unions and intersections then the definition is symmetric 23:04:09 yep 23:04:14 so it would work either way 23:04:23 aka distributive lattice 23:04:33 my rough intuition is "open set ~ semidecidable predicate" 23:04:49 in general 23:05:01 but i bet i don't really know what this thing is like 23:05:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:08:41 -!- augur has joined. 23:11:35 -!- Yonkie has joined. 23:12:04 -!- conehead__ has joined. 23:13:20 -!- Yonkie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:14:36 -!- qlkzy_ has joined. 23:17:07 -!- conehead_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:09 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:10 -!- Sorella has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:10 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:10 -!- qlkzy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:10 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:17:11 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:17:13 -!- conehead__ has changed nick to conehead_. 23:17:51 -!- Sorella_ has joined. 23:18:27 -!- Deewiant has joined. 23:18:45 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:19:15 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:19:46 -!- Sorella_ has changed nick to Sorella. 23:28:52 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:48:43 -!- peapodamus2 has joined. 23:49:16 -!- nooga has joined. 23:49:31 -!- peapodamus has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:50:08 -!- peapodamus2 has changed nick to peapodamus. 23:50:59 oerjan: so every finite topology has a dual topology 23:51:03 does it have a name? 23:58:02 i find none on browsing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_topological_space