←2014-01-22 2014-01-23 2014-01-24→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:54:37 <Sgeo> I started to write a Java class with 7 words in its name
00:55:20 <kmc> what's the name?
00:55:50 <kmc> even AbstractSingletonFactoryProxyBean only has 5 words, but I suppose you could tack on two more to say what it actually does
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00:57:06 <Sgeo> Don't want to say it in public
00:57:44 <Sgeo> err
00:57:47 <Sgeo> What's with Quassel
00:57:53 <Sgeo> Trying to message kmc, doesn't seem to be working
00:58:03 <kmc> ok
00:58:10 <kmc> i have received your secret dispatch
00:58:36 <kmc> Sgeo: it has even more words if you expand acronyms :)
00:59:17 <Taneb> This sounds scary
00:59:23 <Taneb> I don't want to know
00:59:41 <Sgeo> Most of it is just that it's a subclass of an already verbose class
00:59:56 <Taneb> (bare in mind I only know Java by reputation)
01:00:02 <Taneb> *bear
01:02:21 <Sgeo> I might not even use the class... Java's notion of wrappers kind of scares me
01:02:37 <Sgeo> In the sense that I can see some ways to do what I want, but nothing that strikes me as safe
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01:03:52 <Sgeo> I can only guess that Phantom_Hoover's Java allergy guided him away from the channel just in time
01:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> no i was rebooting to arch because windows was running the fan at full blast for some reason
01:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> arch meanwhile has, out of nowhere, started scrolling more than a page with every click of the scrollwheel, rendering it frustratingly useless
01:07:32 <Sgeo> kmc: There is such a thing as excessive love for Rust: http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1o9tp4/sicp_with_rust/
01:08:16 <Sgeo> I feel less ... confused by attempts to translate it to CL or Clojure
01:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ok why is my scrollwheel fucked and how do i unfuck it
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01:39:16 <kmc> did you try turning it off and back on again
01:58:41 <pikhq> Taneb: Java isn't so much "scary" as "bureaucratic".
02:03:11 <kmc> the amount of accidental complexity is pretty scary
02:03:14 <kmc> if you care about software that works
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02:51:07 <copumpkin> kmc: if you could get a job in any language you wanted, what would it be? are you only sick of the haskell community or did the language itself get old too?
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02:53:32 <kmc> copumpkin: I still like Haskell; I also expect there are many corners of the Haskell community that I would enjoy
02:53:48 <kmc> I've long thought that IRC isn't really representative of the people who are using Haskell in production
02:53:50 <copumpkin> did you try #haskell-lens?
02:53:53 <kmc> a little
02:54:07 <kmc> it's just hard to keep up when there are so many other things to spend my time and energy on
02:54:15 <copumpkin> yeah
02:54:20 <kmc> anyway I don't think of language choice as a super important factor in picking a job
02:54:27 <copumpkin> yeah, same
02:54:36 <copumpkin> although I would indeed prefer haskell :)
02:54:37 <copumpkin> how's rust?
02:54:48 <kmc> i like it
02:55:09 <kmc> the rapid rate of change in the language can get annoying
02:55:16 <kmc> especially when things get worse (but usually for good reason)
02:55:50 <copumpkin> what sorts of things get worse?
02:56:23 <kmc> don't have time to talk about it right now, sorry
02:57:20 <copumpkin> oh okay
03:17:07 <pikhq> My poor nose.
03:17:13 <pikhq> It has become a portal to the mucus dimension.
03:30:55 <Sgeo> I am officially considering myself lactose intolerant again
03:31:08 <Sgeo> On an unrelated note, I consider today a failure of see something say something
03:33:20 <Sgeo> Told a person at the train station about some plastic bag at the tracks, called to tell them about a waiting room that smelled heavily of gasoline. Got thanked a lot, but probably wasted everyone's time
03:33:39 <Sgeo> I have got to stop being so panicky
03:44:04 <Sgeo> `olist 940 (Don't care if it's been done, I haven't seen it)
03:44:06 <HackEgo> olist 940 (Don't care if it's been done, I haven't seen it): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
03:50:41 <Sgeo> It has been done. So much for me not caring
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04:47:51 <shachaf> Sgeo: :-(
04:48:41 <kmc> Sgeo: you should tell #cslounge-trains also
04:48:42 <kmc> maybe
04:48:43 <kmc> if you want
04:49:34 <shachaf> is that channel into olist
04:49:42 <shachaf> oh, trains
04:50:16 <kmc> Sgeo: I meant the story that had something to do with trains
04:50:38 <Sgeo> Oh
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05:11:15 <oerjan> @messages-void
05:11:15 <lambdabot> boily said 15h 46m ago: maybe I'm a meta-näkki?
05:12:07 <oerjan> @tell boily If you met a näkki, you wouldn't be here. QED.
05:12:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
05:12:30 * oerjan is crushed by ye olde falling anvil.
05:23:39 <Sgeo> o.O
05:23:40 <Sgeo> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bbs0wB3CQAEDUZE.png
05:23:57 <kmc> yesssss
05:24:30 <kmc> http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/2d.html
05:27:12 <Sgeo> Doesn't seem to work for me
05:27:28 <Sgeo> Don't know if Racket v6 is needed, but those aren't the nightly docs
05:27:53 <Sgeo> Oh, needed a require
05:30:11 * oerjan wonders if the merging supports things like isolated islands
05:30:19 <oerjan> in a circular sea
05:31:55 <oerjan> hm "No cells may span rows."
05:32:43 <oerjan> oh that's for #2dtabular
05:34:00 <Sgeo> I still feel iffy about the difficulty of making lexical syntax scanners that take up only a portion of the file... although that's done here, it required an addition to the #lang line
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07:27:52 <zzo38> What kind of computer golf games will allow you to select the set of clubs during the game instead of only before it starts or being hardcoded in?
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08:03:11 <quintopia> there was that one windows golf game that let you always carry all of the clubs around
08:03:22 <quintopia> that was centuries ago
08:04:21 <myname> won't that work if you have enough people carrying them around for you?
08:05:22 <quintopia> maybe zzo38 means like style and model of clubs.
08:06:50 <zzo38> Normally you can have only fourteen clubs; I mean to allowed you to select which fourteen clubs without having to select before it starts.
08:07:53 <quintopia> don't the rules of golf require you to select before the match starts
08:08:33 <zzo38> I think it actually allows you to select even during the match, as long as you don't delay the game and don't remove any you have already added, and don't have more than fourteen, and exactly one is the putter.
08:09:08 <quintopia> oh
08:09:37 <quintopia> so you want to be able to decide on an as-needed basis, adding clubs to your bag one by one.
08:09:48 <quintopia> that seems kind of cheaty
08:10:30 <myname> people should invent transformer clubs
08:11:00 <zzo38> Transforming golf clubs are explicitly prohibited by the rules, though.
08:12:53 <quintopia> i didn't know that
08:13:34 <myname> huh?
08:13:43 <myname> a strange game
08:13:50 <myname> the only winning move is not to play
08:14:05 <quintopia> guess that makes me a winner
08:15:18 <quintopia> zzo38: i couldn't find my copy of modplug tracker. i always lose it. so i didn't listen to your song.
08:15:45 <zzo38> quintopia: It isn't made in Modplug Tracker, and I don't think Modplug Tracker will play it anyways.
08:16:46 <quintopia> zzo38: why not?
08:17:03 <zzo38> Because it isn't a tracker format.
08:17:25 <zzo38> (But even if it is, there are a few that Modplug doesn't support.)
08:17:49 <quintopia> is it some kind of waveform?
08:17:56 <quintopia> what all players support it
08:17:58 <quintopia> vlc?
08:18:09 <zzo38> I think VLC might play it; I'm not sure.
08:18:39 <quintopia> i accidentally unzipped it into a big folder with other stuff
08:18:46 <quintopia> which file extension is it
08:18:51 <zzo38> It is .nsf
08:19:09 <zzo38> And it is updated now; now there are three files and a few fixes to the old ones
08:19:12 <quintopia> ah good. i like national science foundation files
08:19:24 <zzo38> (I mean three songs; they are all compiled into a single .nsf)
08:19:59 <zzo38> A .nsf file is a program in 6502 machine code that writes audio registers of up to seven kind of sound chips.
08:20:50 <zzo38> (This one uses only the 2A03 chip, which should be supported in all programs that play NSF; some programs may lack support for some of the other sound chips though.)
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08:24:32 <quintopia> i don't think any standard music players support it :/
08:25:19 <zzo38> O no, some do; the music player included standard with Ubuntu seems to play it. Also, any NES/Famicom emulator should play it.
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08:26:00 <zzo38> (At Free Geek they have Ubuntu and I tried loading a .NSF and it played it)
08:26:01 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: yeah, gstreamer has an NSF plug-in built in: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166752
08:26:25 <quintopia> but i don't have that player
08:26:56 <lifthrasiir> I do know some niche music and non-music formats with no known such plugins besides from Winamp...
08:26:57 <Sgeo> https://wiki.videolan.org/Gme/
08:27:40 <Sgeo> https://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?t=33305
08:29:29 <quintopia> yay
08:30:17 <zzo38> So, yes VLC can play it. I don't know which sound chips it supports other than 2A03, but this particular one doesn't use any others anyways, so it is OK.
08:36:27 <zzo38> However you might want to redownload the .zip since it is updated.
08:39:59 <zzo38> The file "attrzone.nsf" is a playable music file with three tracks, "attrzone.asm" is source file for th e game, "attrzone.nes" is the game binary, "attrzone.orc" is a Csound orchestra file, "aznsf.asm" is source code for the NSF, "huffer.c" is a Huffman analysis and compression program, "leveldec.inc" and "levelptr.inc" are automatically created from the compression
08:41:22 <zzo38> "lvlcopy.c" is used to extract RAM images, "mkperiod.bas" is source for "tone.bin", "pc.chr" is the PC character set, "read.me" currently is useless, "rle.dat" is input for huffer.c, "song*.mml" are sources for each song, "song*.bin" are (unplayable) binaries for each song, "tone.bin" is a lookup table to convert note numbers to periods, and "ziplist" lists all the files in the ZIP.
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13:01:08 <fizzie> ! Too many }'s.
13:01:09 <fizzie> l.437 }
13:01:12 <fizzie> Thanks, LaTeX.
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13:07:55 <boily> good M24 morning!
13:08:02 <boily> @massages-loud
13:08:02 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 55m 54s ago: If you met a näkki, you wouldn't be here. QED.
13:08:25 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
13:08:25 <metasepia> EFHK 231250Z 02005KT 9999 FEW002 M14/M16 Q1033 NOSIG
13:08:29 <boily> ~metar CYUL
13:08:30 <metasepia> CYUL 231300Z 23009KT 15SM FEW010 BKN200 M23/M27 A3010 RMK SF1CI7 SF TR SLP197
13:08:45 <fizzie> It was M17 or so in the morning, seems to have warmed up a bit.
13:09:01 <boily> @tell oerjan of course I wouldn't be here, I'd be meating a näkki.
13:09:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:09:02 <fizzie> Also we have a 2 kW electric heater in the office now.
13:09:37 <fizzie> It's in the middle of the room, and feels very primal. "Gather 'round the fire" and all that.
13:09:55 <boily> do anyone of you have a guitar?
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15:29:47 <boily> `relcome trn
15:29:50 <HackEgo> trn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:52:59 <trn> Hello guys.
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15:56:24 <boily> `relcome messi
15:56:26 <HackEgo> messi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:56:45 <boily> trn: are you an esolang amateur?
16:00:33 <trn> Very much so.
16:00:43 <trn> I'm actually not all that much into the esolangs themselves.
16:01:16 <trn> But I like esoteric and retro projects and the creativity and cleverness of it all.
16:01:49 <oklopol> so this one day i was thinking
16:02:05 <oklopol> and i got this crazy idea
16:02:30 <oklopol> that maybe i could try to make an esolang
16:02:51 <oklopol> i don't know what got into me
16:03:35 <messi> brother tenqui
16:07:03 <messi> recome maricon
16:09:40 <trn> boily: I have a PDP-11 port of CP/M for example.
16:12:11 <boily> trn: nice!
16:12:14 <boily> messi: eh?
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16:52:55 <zzo38> Do you have a PDP-11 though?
16:59:10 <quintopia> does anyi wouldn't expect a an original 1960s DEC product to run at all
17:00:36 <boily> me.
17:03:32 <int-e> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/ looks relevant
17:04:17 <int-e> (Though they don't say whether they are still using original hardware. there's a reason why they might: the plant is probably certified including the computer hardware in use.)
17:05:53 <quintopia> well
17:06:01 <quintopia> that seems reasonable
17:06:50 <quintopia> i wish i could just keep a computer in its exact current state for a lifetime, never modifying it except to apply security patches, and always having support
17:06:57 <quintopia> but the world doesn't work that way
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17:10:28 <oerjan> ~metar ENVA
17:10:29 <metasepia> ENVA 231650Z 14025KT CAVOK M03/M16 Q1019 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17020KT
17:10:40 <oerjan> @messages-lewd
17:10:40 <lambdabot> boily said 4h 1m 39s ago: of course I wouldn't be here, I'd be meating a näkki.
17:17:32 <kmc> ~metar LEWD
17:17:32 <metasepia> --- Station not found!
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17:18:05 <oerjan> <fizzie> It's in the middle of the room, and feels very primal. "Gather 'round the fire" and all that. <-- electric cavemen?
17:19:17 <oerjan> trn: hi there, didn't you use to be my usenet reader
17:21:22 <trn> oerjan: I would have recommended tin myself :b
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17:22:35 <oerjan> back when i last did usenet, slrn seemed to be the ultra-fancy one people recommended
17:23:13 <int-e> I used to use tin
17:23:15 * int-e shrugs
17:23:21 <trn> I use slrn now.
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17:23:30 <oerjan> (this may have been last millennium, certainly not long after)
17:25:29 <trn> My nick usage of 'trn' predates USENET trn tho :b
17:26:08 <oerjan> man you're old
17:27:41 <oerjan> next you'll tell us you used original pdp-11s
17:28:33 <trn> Not really PDP-11's much, but VAX.
17:28:46 <oerjan> ah me too
17:32:19 <zzo38> This file include some description of unusual feature of VAX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
17:34:02 <Deewiant> http://blog.codecombat.com/having-your-algorithms-ass-kicked-by-the-internet this jerk describes exactly the next todo in my funge-space impl, and instead of implementing it for me dismisses it with "*Too hard*, I thought."
17:39:04 <kmc> 'As I wrote on Wikipedia, EMODH #5345.1524[r7], @mul_ext_ptr[r0], #3.141592765[r5], @int_table[r1], @frac_table[r2] is 2+18+6+18+6+6, or 56 bytes'
17:39:09 <kmc> wowowowow
17:42:33 <oerjan> ORIGINAL RESEARCH
17:43:05 <kmc> haha
17:50:44 <zzo38> I haven't done anything with VAX programs although I have written programs using a 6502 instruction set, and sometimes tried to design my own instruction sets
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18:30:02 * boily unfungots kmc
18:30:02 <fungot> boily: that's crazy talk. we should do it.
18:30:18 <boily> fungot: of course it's crazy talk. and stop perverting kmc.
18:30:18 <fungot> boily: ( untested)" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord children_list is list of numbers
18:30:33 <boily> fungot: experimental corruption? interesting.
18:30:33 <fungot> boily: who'd you suggest?) but what i have so far. http://geekz.co.uk/ lovesraymond/ archive/ html/ fnord/ files/ system%20down.txt in the
18:30:45 <kmc> you cannot pervert that which is already perverted
18:30:59 <boily> fungot: I think kmc is a good subject, all in all.
18:30:59 <fungot> boily: it passed 1000000). the first one is supposed to be anonymous any more.
18:38:18 <Bike> http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2014/01/23/victoria-line-concrete-flooded-signal-room-photos-not-a-hoax/
18:39:20 <kmc> gooooooooood times
18:41:10 <boily> this is not something that has ever happened before, eh?
18:41:52 <kmc> not as far as I know
18:50:01 <oerjan> accurate flowchart
18:55:29 <kmc> a gold standard cock-up
19:04:31 <oerjan> i guess they've cemented their reputation
19:04:55 <int-e> oerjan++
19:07:44 <kmc> "Let he who has not accidentally filled his workplace with a fast-drying cement cast the first stone."
19:08:20 <oerjan> i can think of some candidates there
19:08:42 <int-e> I know this is the wrong material, but could this still qualify as yet another brick in the wall?
19:08:56 <kmc> >_>
19:10:34 <oerjan> well it _did_ brick that equipment.
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19:16:51 <olsner> 56 bytes for an instruction is still not as bad as that CASEx thing: "Technically it can be 8GB long, but the VAX only has 4GB of addressing space."
19:18:01 * quintopia replaces boily with a specialized computer
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19:22:58 <boily> I am not one to be so easily replaced!
19:23:07 * boily specially mapoles quintopia
19:25:16 <quintopia> wonderful! the mapole functionality works as expected. simulating boily is so easy. just a chatbot with extra mapoles, fungots, and metars.
19:25:16 <fungot> quintopia: it is true that you can't just generate stuff the function wants. ( both are still broken are mutt, tin, all ncurses programs, gpm,...
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19:48:41 <myname> so, TC again: can you say, computers are TC? if so, can you say something is TC if you can build basic logic gates and the like?
19:49:29 <kmc> to be turing complete you need an unbounded amount of storage
19:49:38 <kmc> which no real computer has, so we often gloss over this detail
19:50:24 <myname> is there actually some used subclass of TC with bounded memory?
19:51:43 <boily> cellular automatons :D
19:52:00 <myname> oh!
19:52:02 <olsner> or finite state automata
19:52:09 <myname> good point, actually
19:52:20 <myname> olsner: oh?
19:52:33 <myname> infinite states would make them tc?
19:52:41 <olsner> if you have bounded memory, that's just a whole lot of states
19:52:52 <myname> i see
19:52:57 <myname> that does make sense
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19:54:36 <olsner> it's not the best model (2^(8*4GB) is a lot of states), but I think anything that has bounded memory *can* be reduced to one in principle
19:55:03 <kmc> also linear bounded automata
19:56:41 <kmc> LBAs can recognize a larger set of languages than FSMs because... uh because the storage is proportional to the input string length, rather than completely constant
19:56:44 <kmc> I think
19:57:56 <kmc> note that a TM is a "FSM with a tape", so proving that things are "basically TC" by showing they would be TC when augmented with a tape is pretty meaningless
19:58:38 <olsner> hmm, is only linear bounded automata a thing? how about e.g. polynomial bounded automata?
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20:02:58 <kmc> google search for "quadratic bounded automaton" finds a textbook with an exercise to prove they're TC
20:03:06 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/fWYX4bE.png
20:03:16 <kmc> er, no
20:03:58 <kmc> just that they can be recognized / simulated by a TM
20:03:59 <kmc> boring
20:04:42 <kmc> "polynomial bounded automaton" would be the complexity class PSPACE, i guess?
20:04:46 <shachaf> well, decidable, not just recognizable
20:04:54 <kmc> true
20:05:01 <shachaf> i.e. definitely not tc
20:05:40 <olsner> hmm, isn't that exercise really boring? just remove the tape use restrictions and it's exactly a TM?
20:05:41 <kmc> ah yeah, so the hard part is detecting that D has failed to halt on w
20:06:26 <kmc> but it's not that hard because it has only |w|^2 * Σ states or so
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20:06:52 <kmc> so you can just simulate it for that many steps and give up if it hasn't halted
20:07:18 <kmc> |w|^2 * |Σ| i mean. gah it's been a while
20:07:54 <olsner> the number of steps could be a lot more than the length of the tape though?
20:09:34 <olsner> oh well, it'll be some number of steps that is obvious and trivial to calculate if you know how
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20:16:20 <kmc> yeah I still have it wrong
20:16:42 <kmc> it's like |Σ|^(1 + |w|^2)
20:16:55 <kmc> assuming same alphabet for tape and head states
20:17:46 <olsner> don't you need to include the position of the head somewhere too?
20:18:05 <kmc> sigh, yes
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20:44:01 * int-e sighs
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20:56:40 <ion> http://lindahls.fi/tuotteet.aspx
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20:59:07 <int-e> Hello, ion!
20:59:54 <ion> Hello, i
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21:19:55 <boily> Hellion!
21:24:51 <ion> http://glitzelectronics.com/
21:27:14 <kmc> sneaky
21:28:17 <kmc> jogurtti
21:28:33 <boily> ~duck jogurtti
21:28:34 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
21:28:59 <kmc> ion: whyon
21:29:24 <boily> ~duck yoğurt
21:29:25 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
21:29:48 <int-e> kay-em-see, how does one make a pun with that? komical?
21:33:19 <boily> kmc is notoriously unpunnable, even with `ello and other fternooning matters.
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21:36:02 <Bike> hellegan
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21:40:47 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/5NIH6iV.jpg has everyone seen this yet
21:41:18 <nooodl> Bike: as soon as i could answer that the answer had already become yes
21:43:48 <kmc> what's all this then
21:45:00 <Bike> it's stuff charlie brooks tried to hide from the police
21:45:55 <Bike> as part of hackgate
21:46:45 <kmc> i'm disappointed that "instant lesbian" is a DVD and not, like, a powder you add to water
21:46:46 <nooodl> calling stuff whatevergate is so ridiculous
21:46:55 <Bike> it is, but that's what it's calleed
21:46:55 <kmc> nooodl: yuppp
21:47:11 <Bike> i mean the whole "news international is full of shits and hack into the queen's phone"
21:47:14 <Bike> thing.
21:47:32 <kmc> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/low_concept/2014/01/bridgegate_or_bridgeghazi_chris_christie_s_bridge_scandal_needs_a_name.html
21:48:15 <Bike> i lol'd
21:48:21 <fizzie> Grumble frumble Sunday conference deadlines, what's up with that, don't they realize people always leave these things to the last moment and are going to have to waste their precious weekend time.
21:54:34 <fizzie> (Technically, it's a "Sunday anywhere on Earth" deadline, but I'm not going to count on waking up early enough on Monday Finnish-morning to take advantage of that.)
21:55:34 <kmc> take over a tiny country somewhere, pass sweeping calendar reforms
22:01:29 <int-e> fizzie: yes they do
22:01:58 <fizzie> Are they just EVIL then?
22:06:41 <int-e> It's just that a friday deadline doesn't make sense assuming a program committee with healthy working days.
22:06:59 <int-e> I've seen monday and tuesday deadlines, too.
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22:18:51 <Bike> matlab has sprintf but not printf, ok
22:18:59 <fizzie> Bike: It has fprintf too.
22:19:09 <fizzie> And fprintf(1, ...) is pretty much printf(...).
22:19:30 <kmc> (FILE *) 1
22:19:39 <Bike> hardcoding fids seems gross
22:19:46 <fizzie> It's gross but it's done. :p
22:19:59 <Bike> disp(sprintf(...)) also seems gross, but i figured it's matlab
22:20:03 <fizzie> You can write "stdout" too, but I think that didn't work in Octave or something.
22:20:17 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the other way around, that you can write "stdout" in Octave.
22:20:18 <Bike> octave can't run the codebase anyway V_V
22:20:20 <pikhq> The file descriptors 0, 1, and 2 actually are defined to be stdin, stdout, and stderr in Unix-land, so eh.
22:20:53 <fizzie> You can stick a printf.m in there somewhere, of course.
22:20:54 <Bike> pikhq: yeah but (a) this is windows and (b) if you didn't know that (and this isn't computer scientist land, most people reading don't)...
22:20:54 <pikhq> kmc: Amusingly, that could be a valid definition of stdout.
22:21:25 <pikhq> Bike: It's also the case on common Windows environments, because file descriptors there are a fiction maintained by the C library.
22:21:43 <Bike> yeah i figured
22:21:44 <kmc> in C you can also write STDOUT_FILENO or fileno(stdout)
22:22:27 <pikhq> Yes, but STDOUT_FILENO is 1.
22:22:27 <kmc> odd that file descriptors are part of C and not just POSIX
22:22:37 <pikhq> They aren't part of C.
22:22:46 <kmc> oh
22:23:00 <kmc> ah fileno(): _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 1 || _XOPEN_SOURCE || _POSIX_SOURCE
22:23:05 <kmc> then why do Windows environments provide them as a fiction?
22:23:22 <fizzie> Bike: Yeah, it was the case that the "stdout" thing was an Octave thing, and in MATLAB you just hardcode them.
22:23:49 <fizzie> Though disp(sprintf(...)) is seen too.
22:24:11 <Bike> yeah i copied that from a help page
22:24:34 <Bike> it's just shitty debug output, anyway, i oughta rewrite this whole fucking program
22:24:48 <fizzie> Anyway, from help fprintf: "Obtain FID from FOPEN, or set it to 1 (for standard output, the screen) or 2 (standard error)."
22:24:51 <kmc> rewrite it in python
22:25:15 <pikhq> Windows libcs end up offering a *really* random hodgepodge of Unix functions because DOS libcs happened to offer a really random hodgepodge of Unix functions.
22:25:30 <Bike> wouldn't really help my recurring "oh my god, there are six thousand arguments to this function" problems
22:25:35 <pikhq> Not for any explicit reason, but simply because there was no such thing as "standard" C.
22:25:40 <Bike> also. i just noticed this powerstrip has ethernet ports
22:27:05 <ais523> Bike: sure they aren't telephone ports (that look similar)? the idea's to protect your telephone from being struck by lightning
22:27:08 <Bike> or maybe they're phone jacks...
22:27:10 <Bike> yeah
22:27:18 <shachaf> does it look like https://www.pwnieexpress.com/penetration-testing-vulnerability-assessment-products/sensors/pwn-power/
22:27:23 <Bike> i can never tell the difference :<
22:27:39 <fizzie> ais523: You get RJ45 in surge protectors too. Though I guess RJ11 is more common.
22:27:41 <pikhq> Some power strips have actual Ethernet ports with the same idea.
22:27:46 <Bike> shachaf: please tell me that's not named after the internet slang.
22:27:54 <Bike> ...is this real
22:28:18 <ais523> pikhq: but Ethernet cables tend to be underground, and thus much less in danger from lightning, than phone cables (which at least in the UK tend to run through the air for the last mile)
22:28:22 <Bike> what is this for
22:28:32 <ais523> Bike: look at the domain name
22:28:34 <pikhq> Well aware.
22:28:42 <Bike> ais523: shit
22:28:45 <pikhq> I'm not saying it amkes sense, just that that's the idea. :)
22:29:24 <shachaf> Bike: alt. like this http://gnurds.com/index.php/2012/10/02/raspberry-pi-power-strip/
22:29:29 <shachaf> i guess these things are popular
22:29:50 <pikhq> It's also the case that Ethernet jacks are hooked up via optical isolators, anyways, so surges are much less likely to be hazardous on Ethernet lines *anyways*.
22:30:30 <Bike> i seriously don't understand, why is a power strip also loaded with nmap
22:30:59 <pikhq> ais523: In the US it's decently common for phone cables to run through the air as well.
22:32:04 <pikhq> Not as a guarantee, mind. Pretty much it's whatever happened to be most practical at the time they were putting in lines.
22:33:02 <kmc> i thought they were usually magnetic rather than optical
22:33:36 <pikhq> Pretty sure the spec's optical.
22:33:41 <kmc> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/27756/why-are-ethernet-rj45-sockets-magnetically-coupled
22:33:54 <pikhq> Not that it matters.
22:33:57 <kmc> "Even a 10 MHz square wave has levels lasting only 50 ns. That is very fast for opto-couplers. There are light transmission means that go much much faster than that, but they are not cheap or simple at each end like the ethernet pulse transformers are."
22:34:01 <Bike> ooh ooh is this where i can ask what 'magnetics' means in the context of ethernet
22:34:36 <kmc> well, I think a lightning strike is more likely to cross magnetic isolation than optical isolation
22:34:37 <pikhq> Same net effect on preventing massive catastrophic damage from surges though.
22:34:39 <kmc> but I'm not sure
22:35:28 <pikhq> Yes, though the danger is usually not direct lightning strikes, but rather unusually high current induced by a nearby lightning strike.
22:35:45 <kmc> Bike: the idea is you physically infiltrate this computer, disguised as a harmless power strip, into your target's network
22:35:53 <Bike> ah
22:36:03 <Bike> i wonder if anyone' used that
22:36:09 <kmc> you know when you're `````pentesting'''''
22:36:16 <kmc> I expect so
22:36:21 <kmc> also $1500??? jesus
22:36:32 <Bike> yeah shachaf's second link there starts by complaining about the price :D
22:36:44 <Bike> why is pentesting in quotes, is this a sarcasm thing i am unacquainted with
22:37:13 <kmc> just that the same tools are equally useful for "actually breakin' in to shit"
22:37:20 <kmc> but are always sold for pentesting
22:37:43 <Bike> oh. ok.
22:37:44 <kmc> Text-to-Bash: text in bash commands via SMS!
22:37:51 <Bike> i noticed that.
22:38:10 <pikhq> Makes sense though. Any tool that's useful for testing security is just about as useful for utterly violating that security.
22:38:24 <kmc> to varying degrees, though
22:38:27 <pikhq> True.
22:38:34 <kmc> e.g. there's a big difference between proof-of-concept exploits and weaponized exploits
22:38:49 <pikhq> nmap is not that useful for breaking in, except for telling you a way it's possible.
22:39:16 <Bike> idea: make a fake annoy-a-tron that's loaded with all this breaker shit, give it as a gift to someone whose office you want to break into
22:39:20 <pikhq> If nmap alone gets root on a box, well, damn.
22:39:21 <Bike> noone will see it coming
22:39:54 <pikhq> $1500 though? Jesus.
22:40:19 <pikhq> At that cost I expect a computer to be an exceptionally awesome beast.
22:42:00 <pikhq> Or at least come with a free blowjob.
22:42:26 <kmc> i prefer the much cheaper open source DIY blowjobs
22:42:39 * pikhq is not flexible enough
22:42:42 <kmc> :D
22:42:55 <kmc> well they say open source is about collaboration...
22:43:14 <pikhq> But then it's not DIY.
22:51:36 <kmc> i don't think that term excludes collaborative projects
22:55:48 <pikhq> Humbug.
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