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02:26:23 <kmc> `relcome lancekates
02:26:24 <HackEgo> lancekates: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:26:55 <lancekates> I know this isn't quite the right place for it, but can I ask an ISO question?
02:28:00 <lancekates> say I have ISOs for 6 CDroms. they all, together, install the same program. Broken apart, all of the info in the ISOs can fit on 1 dvd. If I install all the stuff onto one dvd, can I install off that dvd? or am I somehow required to waste another 5 discs?
02:28:26 <kmc> that depends on how the program's installer is written
02:28:39 <kmc> whether it expects the files in an exact location on the disk filesystem, or will search around for them
02:28:47 <kmc> and in the former case, you could maybe still do it if the filenames are all different
02:29:15 <kmc> out of curiosity, how did you find #esoteric?
02:29:22 <lancekates> The filenames are all different. on disc 1 they are all xx1.blah.blah. all of disc 2 are xx2.blah.blah
02:29:52 <lancekates> I randomly picked an IRC server and, being a freemason, thought this might be good for a chat (thinking about the OTHER esoteric ;) )
02:30:04 <kmc> cool, then just try dumping them all into a single ISO 9660 filesystem on a DVD and hope for the best
02:30:17 <lancekates> once I read that y'all are programmers, I thought you might have tips.
02:30:24 <pikhq> Would this happen to be Baldur's Gate?
02:30:51 <lancekates> nope. wow, haven't heard of THAT game in years!
02:31:18 <kmc> lancekates: another option would be to burn the isos themselves to the DVD, and use some "virtual CD drive" program to mount them one by one
02:31:24 <pikhq> Yeah, but 6 CDs. What else could it be, The Sims? :)
02:31:28 <lancekates> back in the day, I had an app that could make ISOs, so I backed up all of my pictures and documents.
02:31:36 <kmc> or skip the first part if they're already on the machine you want to install on =)
02:31:46 <lancekates> but, since we've moved from CDs to DVDs, I thought I might try to reduce the collection.
02:32:22 <lancekates> but this was back in the day, back when windows 98 was hot and new.
02:32:27 <Bike> wow i read "ISO" as meaning t he standards commitee, wtf
02:32:42 <kmc> Bike: well it is, indirectly. ISO 9660
02:32:46 <lancekates> heh... all I know about that is iso9000 = paperwork.
02:32:55 <Bike> i don't need your sass
02:33:01 <Bike> wait, is that why it's "iso"
02:33:10 <Bike> lancekates: the welcome message is informative, believe it or not
02:33:22 <kmc> i was going to ask "what ISO? 9899? 14822? 9660? 10646? 3103?"
02:33:32 <kmc> pikhq: I think Riven came on 5 or 6 CDs, but you would swap them as you play, not install them
02:33:45 <Bike> i thought they were going to ask about the standardization process itself
02:33:57 <Bike> myst had a shitload of disks too. "also, final fantasy seven"
02:34:24 <Bike> one of my earliest computer memories is watching a friend's computer fascinated. the drive letters went up to /I/, man
02:34:24 <lancekates> right, programming language, but what kind of programming? CAD/CAM, gaming, office solutions, etc
02:34:45 <kmc> useless weird programming languages that we make and use for fun
02:34:46 <lancekates> I still have FFVII somewhere around here, but no playstation upon which to play it.
02:34:56 <kmc> For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>
02:35:37 <lancekates> I'll take a look. I haven't been hardcore into computers (other than using them) since college when I did some tech work, repair and sales. Now I just use them to work, study and do stuff for lodge.
02:35:38 <kmc> lancekates: Brainfuck is probably the most well-known esoteric language, although it's pretty boring compared to a lot of them
02:36:15 <lancekates> well folks, I appreciate the help. I'll check out the wiki and once my plate is a little less full, I may look into learning something new. Have a good night, all.
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02:37:59 <kmc> `relcome J_S
02:38:00 <HackEgo> J_S: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:38:14 <J_S> What's going on today
02:40:21 <kmc> not a lot for me
02:41:25 <J_S> Same here, just enjoying a quiet evening with some loud music
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05:13:46 <Sgeo> "Assuming pizza | Use DiGiorno pizza instead"
05:13:57 <Sgeo> Wolfram Alpha doesn't think DiGiorno pizza is pizza
05:14:49 <zzo38> I don't think that is what the message means.
05:35:11 <kmc> does W|A do product placement now
05:37:39 <Sgeo> "If only there was a deck that could both cast it and want to."
05:37:47 <Sgeo> (about Destructive Flow)
05:38:26 <Bike> is there a graph formalism that (at least roughly) corresponds to (at least some useful subset of) organic chemistry
05:39:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PentacycloanammoxicAcid.png i'm pretty well doomed, but still
05:57:29 <Bike> i feel like trying to come up with sensible names for every possible this-kind-of-graph is probably doomed
05:58:35 <Bike> maybe could be a case study in information linguistics though
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07:05:51 <Sgeo> "Not at all out of colour - being really good is a blue ability."
07:06:20 <shachaf> blue is the scow of colors
07:07:06 <Sgeo> A flat-bottomed boat with a blunt bow?
07:12:36 <ion> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/securitymonkey/the-worlds-worst-penetration-test-report-by-scumbagpentester-58747
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07:16:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, Duel of the Planeswalkers has an online play mode
07:16:16 <Bike> "They mention another customer's name by accident." haha
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08:28:00 <Sgeo> Does a card being literally almost useless in non-Commander affect its value much?
08:28:15 <Sgeo> Looks like Command Tower goes for around $1.50
08:29:16 <Sgeo> Wonder if there is some sort of use for a do nothing land
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08:52:07 <Bike> "MySQL configured to allow connections from 127.0.0.1. Recommend configuration change to not allow remote connections." this rules
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09:07:06 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7485/full/nature12954.html aw yeah
09:09:17 <ion> bike: And here’s a very informative picture: http://yle.fi/uutiset/suomalaistutkija_loysi_kauan_etsityn_yksinapaisen_magneetin/7059297
09:11:05 <Bike> phys.org used the same picture :3
09:11:11 <Bike> science thing especially shiny today, study finds
09:21:03 * oerjan sees the term bose-einstein condensate and is skeptical.
09:22:42 <oerjan> because the last times i saw articles about magnetic monopoles "found", they were not fundamental particles but derived phenomena in a material.
09:22:54 <olsner> weren't magnetic monopoles the particles that the LHC would allegedly use to destroy the earth?
09:23:05 <oerjan> olsner: no those were black holes.
09:23:18 <oerjan> well, some of them at least
09:23:53 <oerjan> i'm sure i'll find someone on reddit later who explains why this is the same kind of non-fundamental stuff.
09:24:02 <Bike> what makes a particle fundamental
09:24:19 <oerjan> Bike: not composed of smaller ones?
09:24:41 <Bike> i hear everything's made of strings, man
09:25:40 <oerjan> the previous times the monopoles _were_ sort of string-made.
09:25:56 <oerjan> like, they were really the poles of magnetic strings in the material.
09:26:06 <oerjan> so not "mono" for real.
09:26:33 <Bike> starting to think "real" has lost meaning at this level
09:27:39 <olsner> wikipedia mentioned "flux tubes" as one kind of false monopole (which was really a dipole with independently moving poles, or something)
09:28:55 <oerjan> well the thing is, the behavior of materials is described by quantum field theory in the same way as fundamental physics qft, but they're _emergent_ qft's and have different, emergent particles.
09:30:33 <oerjan> so you can get things like look like magnetic monopoles in the emergent theory but are composed of smaller particles in the basic theory.
09:30:52 <Bike> so like... what kind of microscope do i need to see it to check
09:31:23 <fizzie> "Tilannetta voisi verrata kadonneiden autonavainten etsimiseen. Nyt on todistettu, että avaimet voivat olla olemassa. Tämä lisännee motivaatiota etsimiseen."
09:31:59 <Bike> like, one of those big electric ones?
09:33:26 <oerjan> Bike: electron microscopes are nice. i recall that john sidles guy i've seen commenting in some blogs works on some kind of quantum spin microscope, i'd suggest those.
09:33:48 <oerjan> (he just got banned from scott aaronson's blog again.)
09:34:28 <Bike> i saw a presentation on super (light) microscopes some weeks ago, it was weirdly retro
09:34:32 <Bike> and yes they're actually called "super"
09:35:08 <Bike> seeing light microscopy of like, proteins, is p. weird imo
09:35:40 <oerjan> (btw he's weird but i don't think there is anything wrong with his actual work.)
09:35:50 <Bike> i assume weird is why banned
09:36:24 <oerjan> well he got aaronson angry by ignoring the subject when called on being wrong.
09:37:18 <oerjan> he has this exuberant super-positive vibe always, but i think that extends to never admitting anything negative.
09:42:20 <olsner> so is the "real" monopole supposed to be some new kind of elementary particle?
09:43:22 <Bike> this jsut reminds me that i had to drop my electrostatics class -_-
09:52:12 * oklopol doesn't understand a thing
09:52:25 <oklopol> oerjan is talking about these particles and stuff like they mean something
09:53:44 <oerjan> oklopol: 's ok i only understand half a thing
09:58:44 <oklopol> you used to say "vague" a lot more btw
09:59:01 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i did
09:59:04 <oklopol> where is this newfound confidence coming from
10:00:11 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't have precise recalls any more, so the vague became redundant hth
10:56:18 <fizzie> [[ a BLACK & EMPTY screen is a sign that your ''cache'' or "memory'' are overwhelmed and can't take any more -- or you may have conflicting ''cookies''. ]]
10:56:24 <fizzie> (I'm trying to figure out why this Chrome has gotten the symptom that some pages show up entirely black (but the contents are there, links can be clicked and text copy-pasted) and also on first visit of such a page, one of the myriad Chrome processes goes into a "use 100% CPU and all memory" mode; killing the process has no observable effects.)
10:57:00 <fizzie> "While you are at it, switch-off both your modem and your router for about 30 seconds; then turn them back on again."
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12:42:58 <ion> https://soundcloud.com/fredscott-1/this-is-a-trent-reznor-song
12:55:59 <ais523> for some reason, my mind's thinking of a sound cloud as an auditory version of a tag cloud
12:56:04 <ais523> which is weird, because that isn't even a concept that makes sense
12:58:09 <oerjan> sounds like an art piece
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13:01:27 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/CaproniCa.60.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Ca.60_under_costruction.jpg/1024px-Ca.60_under_costruction.jpg such a fancy plane
13:02:12 <fizzie> ("The prototype only made one short flight on 4 March 1921 over Lake Maggiore in Italy. The aircraft attained an altitude of only 18 m (60 ft), then dived and crashed, breaking up on impact. -- Caproni had the wrecked airplane towed to shore, and announced that he would rebuild it, but that night it burned to ashes."
13:04:16 <ais523> I remember a show on TV where they gave three teams of mechanical engineers some propellors, lots of wood, and a scrapheap from which to scavenge components, also World War I-era tools
13:04:21 <ais523> and asked them to build aeroplanes
13:04:45 <ais523> they all managed to build working aeroplanes in just two days, although only one of the teams was crazy enough to attempt to fly it more than a few metres off the ground
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13:28:36 <quintopia> ais523: junkyard wars, extreme version?
13:28:59 <ais523> quintopia: yeah, it was a special episode of Scrapheap Challenge, the UK series that Junkyard Wars is based on
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13:36:28 <boily> good unsynchronized morning!
13:42:42 <boily> did you have any recent snowfalls? meteorite falls? alien falls? zombie falls?
13:45:33 <ais523> boily: there were some very minor snowfalls here, the snow didn't settle
13:45:45 <ais523> I didn't observe any meteorites, aliens, or zombies falling
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13:47:52 <quintopia> boily: just that one snowfall on monday!
13:48:07 <boily> oh. nothing to worry about, then.
13:48:11 <quintopia> boily: but it shut down the city for two days so far
13:50:34 <quintopia> not so much the snow, but the ice on the roads and the wrecks
13:53:25 <ais523> the wrecks would be a problem even without ice on them, wouldn't they?
13:54:03 <ais523> (some day, it seems possible that my tendency to see the unintended parsing of a sentence will lead to problems)
13:58:11 * boily ambiguously mapoles ais523 (but only lightly, as no particular offence was made)
13:59:56 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
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14:08:05 <boily> aaaaaurgh! when will the next Haskell Weekly News be?
14:10:42 <boily> quintopia: can I ais523ly misinterpret that? :D
14:10:57 <boily> what do you usually get for breakfast?
14:11:03 <quintopia> boily: only if you can carry a bed :D
14:11:20 <boily> quintopia: I was thinking more along the lines of a motorized bed.
14:11:23 <quintopia> boily: i usually eat cereal but i'm thinking of making eggs today
14:11:58 <boily> eggs in the morning are good. two eggs, bacon, «patates rissolées», two toasts, a large glass of OJ and a cup of coffee.
14:12:26 <boily> but then, my usual fare is the same as yours. a bowl of cereals with yogurt and a glass of juice.
14:13:16 <quintopia> i'm not sure what rissolees means, but i'm going to pretend it says hash browns
14:13:31 <boily> http://lacuisinedestelle.unblog.fr/files/2009/06/dsc02809.jpg
14:14:15 <boily> mcdonald's hash browns are my hangover cure.
14:15:49 <quintopia> oh that. yeah i've totally had that for breakfast
14:16:03 <quintopia> you know cuz cutting onions in the morning
14:16:34 <quintopia> also mcdonald's "hash browns" are not hash browns
14:16:48 <quintopia> hash browns are fried on a griddle, not in a deep fryer
14:19:36 <boily> cutting onions in the morning is dangerous. there are more chances of me cutting a finger off than the onion itself.
14:21:02 <quintopia> have you every experienced the joy of waffle house
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14:22:24 <boily> quintopia: no, not yet.
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14:23:56 <quintopia> boily: if you ever come down this way...
14:25:12 * boily exclaims: “WAFFLES!”
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15:05:28 <ion> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/973736766/cybermatrix-100
15:05:37 <ais523> I am currently very angry with how my work is (or isn't) going
15:06:00 <ais523> anyone have a copy of the proof that equivalence is decidable in typed lambda calculus handy?
15:15:56 <ais523> ah, found it via Wikipedia
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15:18:05 <boily> I should have learned a long time ago to psychologically prepare myself each time a link is presented in this chännel.
15:18:14 <boily> ion: this is vile.
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15:24:20 <int-e> fungot could learn from the guy. "i only have diagrams. however, the processor it'll run on is a proprietary hardware containing 4 quantum engines about the size of a shooter marble."
15:24:20 <fungot> int-e: meh... it's not like you will starve because they ate your lunch, riastradh. :) i'm going to have to compete with common lisp
15:24:48 <int-e> (is "quantum" a brand name that one should know?)
15:29:11 <ais523> boily: you could do what I do, and avoid clicking links on IRC except in really extreme circumstances
15:38:51 <boily> fungot: what is the quantic of a quantum?
15:38:51 <fungot> boily: ( there are other implementations out there. one was a real wtf piece of string
15:39:04 <boily> fungot: string theory is indeed very wtfing.
15:39:04 <fungot> boily: accomplish the same multiple tasks as reading from the second lisp interpreter i ever wrote a compiler for it
15:39:26 <boily> ais523: I can't resist the tempting allure of beautiful links.
15:40:00 <ais523> boily: for a while I actually configured my client to edit them out
15:40:43 <ais523> nowadays, I went for the less extreme option of just removing the coloration
15:40:57 <boily> there is link colouration?
15:41:47 <ais523> it's generally about type systems for hardware compilation
15:41:57 <ais523> however, none of the type systems actually seem to work :-(
15:42:40 <quintopia> also the fact that i was in bad mental and emotional state that leads to nonproductivity
15:45:05 <ais523> # spent 1.47s within main::recursive_id which was called 100001 times, avg 15µs/call:
15:45:07 <ais523> # 100000 times (1.47s+-1.47s) by main::recursive_id at line 4, avg 0s/call
15:45:08 <ais523> # once (24µs+1.47s) by main::RUNTIME at line 7
15:47:36 <ais523> I guess this problem affects absolutely everything that wants to combine recursion and resource bounds
15:48:31 <quintopia> does that read 'this process took 1.47s plus or minus 1.47s'?
15:49:34 <ais523> quintopia: no, the recursive calls took 1.47 seconds directly, 0 seconds if you also include indirectly called functions
15:49:52 <ais523> thus the profilier interprets it as 1.47 seconds for the recursive calls and -1.47 seconds for its children
15:50:33 <ais523> it's the only way to make the numbers add up
15:51:49 <ais523> yeah, and my research doesn't like it either
15:52:57 <ais523> if I do something as simple as \f.f(f(0)) (of type (int->int)->int), in a call by name system, it's easy to prove that the amount of time the function spends calling its argument is more than the amount of time it spends running in total
15:54:10 <quintopia> right, of course. everyone knows that parts of processes take more time than the whole process together
15:54:19 <ais523> it's because two copies of the argument run concurently
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15:55:03 <quintopia> concurrency is weird, but i'm not sure that's a sensible way to model it
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15:56:45 <ais523> I'm not sure what /is/ a sensible way to model it, though
15:59:29 <quintopia> me neither. i take it sums and averages behave badly
16:00:19 <boily> quintopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-calculus ?
16:01:30 <ais523> boily: actually using process calculi is a common method of working round these problems
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16:54:05 <Slereahphone> We are currently doing some exception handler thing
16:54:48 <Slereahphone> And the function does not work so well (it's a task manager)
16:55:08 <kmc> mipsistance
16:55:10 <ais523> I'm confused already :-(
16:55:20 <ais523> like, does this program have anything to do with MIPS in particular?
16:55:26 <ais523> apart from running on it?
16:56:03 <ais523> I thought MIPS was a processor, not a language
16:56:12 <ais523> (also a fictional rabbit, but that's unlikely to be the meaning you mean)
16:58:21 <Slereahphone> So I just did a load address to the next task on some register
16:59:26 <quintopia> so...there are people here who grok MIPS?
16:59:45 <Slereahphone> At first I thought the problem came from the timer that triggered the interrupt, so I reset it to 0
17:00:42 <kmc> i don't think that's true
17:00:53 <ais523> yep, I know multiple asms but not MIPS
17:01:22 <Slereahphone> The initials stand for "MIPS Is Popular in School"
17:01:56 <Slereahphone> At least that's what the #esoteric people told me last time!
17:02:39 <ais523> really, I'm not sure what asm architecture you're meant to start with
17:02:46 <ais523> at university they taught us PIC16F asm
17:03:14 <ais523> which is kind-of weird because it has one register (two if you count the stack pointer, but that's three bits long) and less than a kilobyte of memory
17:03:22 <ais523> and the instruction counter is memory-mapped rather than being a register
17:03:32 <ais523> (or if you look at it a different way, the /entirety of memory/ is registers)
17:04:13 <ais523> actually like a quarter the memory addresses are memory-mapped to something, but according to the docs it's perfectly OK to use them to store values if they're not going to get spontaneously overwritten
17:04:37 <ais523> and I think all instructions run in exactly two cycles, apart from jumps that take 4
17:05:00 <Slereahphone> I do like a processor that does not give a fuck
17:05:46 <Slereahphone> I'll try to get a mips debugger tonight, see what's up
17:06:24 <Slereahphone> We did not actually program any function on a computer
17:06:53 <Slereahphone> And then we had to write an entire program ourselves
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18:12:37 <quintopia> at Georgia Tech, the relevant class has us build a microprocessor in some logic hardware design program, and write the FSM for it, then create an assembly language and assembler for it, then write assembly programs targeted to it
18:12:45 <quintopia> we never learned any "real" assembly languages
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18:13:54 <int-e> sounds more real to me than writing mips code and having it run on the spim emulator :)
18:14:20 <HackEgo> MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
18:15:52 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ \ \ ⌨ \ ⊥ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠
18:16:19 <int-e> `` echo 'SPIM Pretends It's MIPS' > wisdom/spim
18:16:20 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
18:16:30 <int-e> `` echo "SPIM Pretends It's MIPS" > wisdom/spim
18:18:45 <quintopia> you wouldn't have errored it the first time if you'd used `learn :P
18:19:10 <kmc> oh is `` an alias for `run? neat
18:19:45 <int-e> I'm still not sure whether that's intentional or not.
18:20:33 <int-e> Well, `run is built into the bot. `` executes bin/`
18:21:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
18:23:16 <boily> back from lunch, and there are new wisdom entries.
18:23:50 <int-e> huh, `learn looks strange.
18:24:23 <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor?
18:25:44 <int-e> Ah. $1 is the whole string, an then it makes sense. Though it's kind of funny that it bothers to calculate $info and then uses $1 for the contents anyway :)
18:30:31 <boily> an ethen is an ettin that happens after.
18:32:55 <boily> a vietnamese soup with chicken gizzard, heart, liver and white meat.
18:33:30 <HackEgo> 98076 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ this \ UNPA \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:33:34 <ais523> that wisdom ls look a lot like mojibake, but I don't understand the encodings
18:33:38 <boily> (we were 10 colleagues who went to a nice restaurant to celebrate Tết)
18:33:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/canary
18:33:44 <ais523> unless it's mojibake for a particularly weird character set
18:33:50 <ais523> it probably is, actually
18:33:58 <ais523> FireFly: you really don't need to pastebin that :-)
18:34:10 <boily> ais523: the mojibake is intentional. I had a fun time transcribing it into \LaTeX{}.
18:34:21 <FireFly> Well, I was thinking of ways to figure out <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor?
18:34:32 <ais523> I forgot half the entries in wisdom were for the purpose of trolling you
18:34:34 <quintopia> boily: and every one has Tếttin the same thing?
18:34:38 <FireFly> on the off chance that the URL wouldn't be hardcoded
18:35:16 <boily> quintopia: oh no. a few had regular phở, others lunch combos, and the rest bún thịt nương.
18:36:04 <quintopia> indeed, when i tried to use it to be serious, it got deleted. lesson learned.
18:36:07 <ais523> this channel is entirely too light-hearted for me :-(
18:36:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
18:37:02 <HackEgo> bash: :-D: command not found
18:37:43 <HackEgo> cat: :-D/:-D: Not a directory
18:38:18 <HackEgo> File: `:-D' \ Size: 1 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 664672 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2014-01-30 18:37:27.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2013-11-13 20:20:49.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2014-01-29 12:39:20.000000000 +0000 \ B
18:39:04 <kmc> `` echo ☺ > :-D
18:39:42 <kmc> touch doesn't insert a newline
18:39:43 <int-e> quintopia: echo > :-D would be my guess. 'touch' creates empty files.
18:39:59 <int-e> (if the file does not exist. obviously.)
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18:40:08 <quintopia> having a smileyface available seems actually useful
18:40:35 <kmc> is a more amusing way to get an empty file named ":-D"
18:40:50 <boily> `` echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nod -Ax -tx1z -v $@' >bin/hd
18:40:56 <boily> `` chmod 0755 bin/hd
18:41:04 <HackEgo> 000000 e2 98 ba 0a >....< \ 000004
18:41:10 <boily> aaaah, much better.
18:41:25 <int-e> oh. "hex dump", not "head".
18:41:51 <boily> quintopia: I have it as an alias in my .bashrc. it's more interesting to have it as hex than octal.
18:41:58 <boily> s/than/rather than/
18:42:26 <quintopia> i was thinking of going to the boardgame night tomorrow night
18:43:28 <int-e> boily: maybe leave off the 'z' though?
18:44:51 <boily> quintopia: oh, boardgame nights are goot nights :D
18:45:19 <boily> (I spent a large portion of last Saturday playing eclipse with my bro and his girlfriend.)
18:46:15 <kmc> i don't like board games that much but i enjoy boardgame nights cause it seems to be the standard sort of social event among people i like and people who are like me
18:47:23 <Gregor> <FireFly> Well, I was thinking of ways to figure out <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor? // Whoops :)
18:47:29 <Gregor> Throw it on the pile of things to fix ^^´
18:47:36 <boily> int-e: what does “z” do?
18:48:22 <int-e> boily: add printable characters at the end
18:48:53 <boily> kmc: I like the abstract strategy classics, and games with large hexagons.
18:49:39 <kmc> most games just make me feel stupid :/
18:49:39 <int-e> boily: (that's the >....< part above. It's useful on a shell, but looks confusing on IRC, imho.
18:50:18 <boily> int-e: good point. and thanks for unfungotting your parenthesises.
18:50:18 <fungot> boily: but for s-expression editing and alignment ( not indentation!)
18:50:19 <quintopia> boily: yay hex boards. but risk is good too. or square tile games like carcassonne
18:50:42 <boily> quintopia: indeed. carcassonne is an hex game that has identity troubles, imho.
18:51:06 <boily> quintopia: you should try eclipse some day. that thing is addictive.
18:51:13 <quintopia> boily: or card games like hanabi or tichu :D
18:54:02 <quintopia> woot just picked up a level 481 weapon in IdleRPG :D
18:56:55 <b_jonas> ais523: it's just hit me how long I've been out of touch with Magic: the Gathering really:
18:57:21 <b_jonas> the last set I've bought cards from is Scars, which is now three years ago
18:57:39 <quintopia> boily: microbricks board games! http://microbricks.blogspot.com/2009/02/its-all-fun-and-games-until-someone.html
18:58:52 <ais523> b_jonas: Scars is /recent/ for me
18:59:03 <ais523> the last set I've bought cards from is Lorwyn
18:59:17 <b_jonas> ais523: well, as I've been out of touch, Scars is also recent for me
18:59:36 <b_jonas> but it's still three years ago
19:00:44 <ais523> I guess I'm of the opinion that Magic would be a better game if they just kept tweaking in an attempt to make the best format they could, rather than trying to reinventing the game every three months
19:01:01 <kmc> but then how would they sell new cards
19:01:21 <ais523> that's the problem :-(
19:01:34 <ais523> they don't sell new cards to me anyway, though
19:01:49 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think just tweaking would lead to a good game,
19:03:11 <ais523> well starting from scratch is likely to be even worse
19:03:14 <b_jonas> M:tG is appealing because there's such a large choice of cards, so new cards _are_ good for it,
19:03:43 <boily> b_jonas: I've been told by the HR rep. at my new job to brin my decks :D
19:03:44 <b_jonas> and it's not really reinvented that fast if you're only a casual player and don't try to go for Standard.
19:04:12 <b_jonas> I'm not saying the current system is perfect, but it's not that bad really.
19:04:31 <b_jonas> boily: really? what kind of job is that?
19:04:31 <quintopia> oh dear i should start getting dressed
19:04:49 <boily> quintopia: holy fungot that looks awesome.
19:04:49 <fungot> boily: i predict my question will be forgotten in a few
19:04:55 <b_jonas> boily: did they want to see your decks before or after they decide to hire you?
19:05:00 <boily> quintopia: (re. the microbricks. not you being nude.)
19:05:06 -!- SeeNoEvil has joined.
19:05:17 <quintopia> boily: i'm not nude. but i will be in a moment. and then i will look awesome.
19:05:25 <boily> fungot: don't worry, I already forgot what it was to be forgotten.
19:05:30 <kmc> hot nude fungots in your area
19:05:31 <fungot> kmc: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ tuppersself-referentialformula.html is a cheat, though, that one
19:05:38 <quintopia> boily: also, from now on, quadrilaterals will be called "tetrapleurs"
19:05:45 <boily> b_jonas: ha ha ha :D after. I signed the contract yesterday night.
19:06:08 <boily> `learn tetrapleur is the new name of quadrilaterals.
19:06:49 <boily> b_jonas: I'll be doing CAD for dentists.
19:06:58 <b_jonas> boily: I did mention M:tG in my cv (because, you know, I don't really have any better hobbies I can show off), but I don't think it mattered much
19:07:03 <boily> quintopia: http://www.workopolis.com/FR/recherche-emploi/emplois?s_kwcid=TC|7918|workopolis||S|e|19220852949&lg=fr&gclid=CJz5mZfMprwCFa5DMgodRgsAsA
19:07:16 <kmc> listing hobbies in CVs is weird
19:07:22 <kmc> I know it's a thing but it's still weird
19:07:35 <boily> kmc: I do list the fact I have a certificate in Japanese, and classical piano.
19:07:55 <b_jonas> boily: those are marketable skills
19:08:12 <quintopia> `echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:08:17 <HackEgo> "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:08:18 <kmc> because it's usually not relevant to the jobs you're applying for
19:09:02 <quintopia> ``echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:09:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
19:09:06 <kmc> and because selecting employees for "culture fit" or whatever is a great way for unintentional bias to sneak in
19:09:09 <ais523> need a space after the ``
19:09:17 <quintopia> `` echo "Don't you mean \"tetrapleur\"?" > wisdom/quadrilateral
19:09:29 <ais523> kmc: and if you're being cynical, a great way for intentional bias to sneak in without being detected
19:09:37 <kmc> the college admissions essay was invented in the 20s to keep Jews out of Harvard
19:11:02 <b_jonas> kmc: but consider that I'm young and didn't have much work experience when applying, but I do have to write something in the cv so that was two lines of padding
19:11:12 <quintopia> boily: your next language idea: brainfungot
19:11:12 <fungot> quintopia: ah. sorry, i thought i'd use scheme again.
19:11:18 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah, I'm not faulting you for it or anything, I just think it's a weird practice overall
19:11:25 <quintopia> (apparently it shall be a scheme derivative)
19:11:43 <ais523> I just had a silly idea
19:11:54 <ais523> Lisp derivative that's neither imperative nor functional
19:12:03 <ais523> actually that's probably just Prolog
19:12:12 <kmc> The Reasoned Schemer is a fun book
19:12:22 <boily> quintopia: I need something that starts with “y” for my next language. I created “betterave”, “aubergine” and then “zucchini”, so the next one'll be a vegetable with “y”.
19:12:30 <quintopia> ais523: how about a concatenative lisp?
19:12:35 <int-e> quintopia: will programs with balanced parentheses be rejected as syntactically incorrect?
19:12:44 <kmc> most concatenative languages are imperative and/or functional, aren't they?
19:12:48 <ais523> Prolog is a much better homoiconic language than Lisp is, because it's almost entirely homoiconic (only exception I know of is :-) without being ugly
19:12:50 <b_jonas> quintopia: isn't that sort of a contradiction?
19:12:50 <kmc> these paradigms aren't really mutually exclusive
19:13:02 <kmc> but I think you can argue that logic programming is fundamentally non-imperative
19:13:11 <ais523> also, wow, that's the first time I've ever tried to write a ":-" at the end of a paren group and created a smiley by mistake as a result
19:13:43 <b_jonas> ais523: in prolog, ':-' is just an ordinary infix operator too syntax-wise
19:13:44 <kmc> what's a functional logic language? maybe one where unification variables can take on function (or predicate) values
19:13:52 <ais523> I find it very hard to describe what cut does in non-imperative terms
19:13:53 <quintopia> ais523: what is "homoiconic" and is $ homoiconic?
19:13:56 <kmc> ais523: hm, that's true
19:14:14 * kmc should learn how Twelf works one of these days
19:14:18 <ais523> quintopia: homoiconic languages are languages where there's no distinction between parse trees of the source, and data manipulated by the language
19:14:28 <ais523> Lisp is the most famous example
19:14:38 <b_jonas> I don't like langugaes being homoiconic though
19:15:05 <b_jonas> I tolerate them because they exist for historical reasons, but I don't like them
19:15:09 <quintopia> so what would you call eodermdrome
19:15:29 <fungot> b_jonas: anyway i was happily using a fnord is a good thing.
19:15:52 <kmc> oh Mercury is described as a functional logic language
19:15:53 <ais523> eodermdrome is a language where code is blurred with data in a different way
19:16:07 <b_jonas> what's "eodermdrone" really?
19:16:08 <ais523> it's very hard to manipulate graphs in eodermdrome
19:16:12 <ais523> b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
19:16:18 <kmc> also Rust is the third Google hit for "mercury programming language" o_O
19:16:35 <ais523> I have a macro in my IRC client for linking to esolangs
19:16:41 <ais523> it comes up a lot, when the channel's actually ontopic
19:16:48 <quintopia> ais523: and what is cpressey's crazy metacircular interpreter thingamabob i can't remember the name of
19:17:55 <ais523> I dunno, but if it's a) by cpressey and b) not specifically designed to have a particular classification, it's probably unclassifiable
19:18:20 <ais523> cpressey and I have a similar tastes for beauty in esolangs
19:18:20 <kmc> is there a distinction between a metacircular interpreter and a merely self-hosting one? i've heard of such a distinction but wondering what this channel thinks
19:18:44 <ais523> kmc: there is in Feather, I think
19:19:00 <metasepia> yucca definition: any of a genus ('''Yucca''') of sometimes arborescent plants of the agave family that occur in warm regions chiefly of western North America and have long sword-shaped often stiff fibrous-margined leaves on a usually woody base and bear a large panicle of white blossoms.
19:19:08 <boily> quintopia: yucca it is.
19:19:17 <b_jonas> ais523: incidentally, I think prolog is homoiconic in a much more serious way than scheme.
19:19:26 <ais523> coppro: elliott: Sgeo: you're all in the 4 days notice for deregistration from Agora
19:19:44 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, the arithmetic is a good example of that
19:20:37 <b_jonas> ais523: not just arithmetic
19:20:41 <quintopia> boily: and then courge musqeé because it makes the best pies!
19:20:50 <ais523> b_jonas: that's why I said "example"
19:21:20 -!- SeeNoEvil has left.
19:21:27 <quintopia> boily: yes, even better than pie of citrouille
19:21:49 <boily> “pie of citrouille”. c'est parce que tsé, ça se dit pas genre vraiment très de même, là là.
19:22:34 <ais523> I guess one requirement for a homoiconic language is that it has an eval
19:22:45 <ais523> hmm… would you consider Underload homoiconic?
19:23:26 <kmc> ais523: what's the distinction in Feather?
19:23:33 <ais523> kmc: I'm not entirely sure
19:24:03 <ais523> Feather is one of those esolang ideas that probably actually works but I have no idea how
19:24:26 <ais523> it's also something of a meme in this channel
19:24:29 <ais523> because I refuse to work on it
19:24:30 <b_jonas> ais523: is postscript homoiconic?
19:24:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't really know postscript, although given that it's concatenative, it has a chance
19:24:54 <quintopia> boily: i'm allowed to mix languages. and walk with squashes on my legs
19:25:15 <kmc> the distinction i've heard is that a metacircular interpreter is a self-hosting interpreter which represents (some of) the object language's constructs using exactly the same way in the meta-language
19:25:52 <kmc> you can write a Scheme interpreter in Scheme but if your representation for a cons pair is not a cons pair, then it's not metacircular
19:26:02 <quintopia> boily: and then daikon. the only vegetable that starts with d
19:26:30 <kmc> except even the famous metacircular evaluator in SICP doesn't represent everything this way
19:26:44 <kmc> cause you want to be explicit about closures and environments
19:26:44 <boily> quintopia: the 大根 will be glorious. I mean, so far through the alphabet, I'll have some experience designing languages.
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19:29:11 <boily> quintopia: xigua? as in 西瓜?
19:29:22 <boily> quintopia: «navet» is masculin, so «le navet».
19:29:46 <quintopia> by the time you have that many languages you'll be misgendering things just for fun
19:30:28 <boily> I disagree! oranges are better! nah!
19:30:45 <quintopia> yes i disagree too. i like sherbets
19:32:20 <quintopia> boily: what kind of orange? navel? mandarin? clementine?
19:34:17 <quintopia> then maybe you should do navel orange for your last language. assuming you're willing to branch out into fruits
19:35:12 <b_jonas> ais523: wow, this eodermdrone looks like it's not very convenient to write programs in
19:35:16 <quintopia> and i will make a derivative called navy blues
19:35:20 <ais523> b_jonas: that's typical of esolangs
19:35:46 <boily> quintopia: to branch off into fruits. I see what you did there...
19:36:25 <quintopia> boily: yes. i did some branch prediction.
19:37:03 * boily mapoles quintopia with a mapole branch
19:37:32 <ais523> b_jonas: my goal in esolang designs is basically to discover new models of computation
19:37:51 <quintopia> b_jonas: all turing-complete esolangs are trivial to program in once you've built a compiler from some more common language.
19:37:57 <ais523> sure, most of the time most of them are useless, but at least it's expanding the horizons of possibility
19:38:20 <ais523> quintopia: if it's O(2^(2^n)) it's a pain to debug, though
19:38:54 <quintopia> ais523: what? don't esolangers have a ton of free time on their hands?
19:39:25 <ais523> quintopia: yeah but it's hard to grasp just how stupidly slow that computational class is
19:39:37 <quintopia> ais523: anyway, all you have to do is write a proof that your compiler works. who cares if the programs it generates ever get run.
19:39:59 <ais523> quintopia: I'm just annoyed because every time I do that, the compiler turns out not to work
19:44:34 <b_jonas> ais523: does eodermdrone allow non-ascii letters?
19:44:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I left that unspecified
19:44:52 <ais523> it's more of a challenge if you try to avoi them
19:44:59 <b_jonas> if the number of letters wouldn't be limited to 26, it might not be as difficult to program as I first thought
19:47:22 <b_jonas> yes, I think you could simulate a sane pointer machine in eodermdrone not in a not too difficult way, though you might need more than 26 letters
19:49:49 <ais523> there's a BCT interp in less than 26 on the article
19:50:17 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but BCT itself isn't easy to program in,
19:50:46 <b_jonas> whereas a pointer machine is, in the sense that you can compile or interpret a program from a sane language in O(n log n) time,
19:51:21 <b_jonas> I mean the runtime of the pointer machine would be O(n log n) if n is the runtime of the original program,
19:52:09 <b_jonas> and the pointer machine is sort of efficiently simulated by eodermdrone in that it needs only a constant number of replacements for each statement in the pointer machine.
19:52:39 <b_jonas> whereas if you compile something to BCT that I think can cause a quadratic slowdown
19:53:04 <b_jonas> I don't really understand BCT, mind you
19:53:16 <b_jonas> the description on esolang wiki isn't too clear
19:53:34 <ais523> b_jonas: you could try reading http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight
19:53:53 <ais523> which is TC for much the same reason
19:55:50 <ais523> and if it's just that you don't understand the explanation, there's another explanation in the example program on http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow (although StackFlow is unrelated, apart from having a BCT interp)
19:56:18 <b_jonas> the problem is that I don't understand the DEFINITION of BCT
19:56:40 <b_jonas> let me check if there's a small interpreter in a sane language for it
19:56:44 <ais523> b_jonas: do you understand cyclic tag?
19:56:53 <ais523> as in, is the problem with BCT the syntax or cyclic tag the langauge
19:57:07 <ais523> the StackFlow program has another explanation of the definition, but I can try to do it in-channel if you like
19:57:08 <b_jonas> the problem is the CT language
19:57:21 <ais523> basically, you have a program, and one queue
19:57:29 <ais523> the queue contains "run" and "skip"
19:57:43 <ais523> repeatedly, you pop the queue, if you pop a "skip" you move to the next comman in the program
19:57:45 <b_jonas> damn, the wiki doesn't point to any non-obfuscated interpreter
19:58:05 <ais523> and if you pop a "run" you enqueue all the elements of the current command, and then after that move to the next command in the program
19:58:26 <b_jonas> what does "current command" mean?
19:59:01 <ais523> it starts at the first command
19:59:09 <ais523> and goes back to the start if it moves off the end
19:59:32 <b_jonas> ok, but then what does all elements of the current command mean? isn't the current command a single bit in the program?
19:59:54 <b_jonas> what type is the program then?
19:59:58 <ais523> in the BCT encoding, the string is (IIRC) made out of 10 and 11, separated with 0
20:00:13 <ais523> the program is "cyclic list of lists of queue elements"
20:00:44 <b_jonas> I still don't understand but it's sort of clearer now
20:00:56 <b_jonas> what I'd like to see is a non-optimized non-obfuscated implementation really
20:01:57 <ais523> I made a Perl cyclic tag interp for the Wolfram Turing machine thing, but it's actually really hacky
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21:22:58 <boily> oerjan: was that a hello-FireFly-boily combo twh?
21:27:52 <metasepia> ENVA 302120Z 07006KT 040V100 CAVOK M02/M10 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 14007G17KT
21:28:16 <oerjan> they say our ridiculously dry weather may last till mid february
21:28:39 <metasepia> CYUL 302100Z 14010KT 15SM FEW140 BKN210 M05/M12 A3013 RMK AC2CI5 SLP206
21:29:11 <boily> we're having a record dry January. there's less than a third of our regular snow.
21:34:06 <oerjan> with accompanying wildfires.
21:34:51 <boily> January wildfires? you sure you're in the right hemisphere?
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21:35:58 <oerjan> yes, it's ridiculous. they've temporarily outlawed outdoor fires now.
21:36:30 <oerjan> it's so dry the heath is burning at below freezing degrees
21:37:15 <oerjan> the first wildfire burnt 55 houses on a small peninsula
21:37:47 <oerjan> (not just in one place, either, it spread to 3 different villages.)
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21:38:29 <oerjan> the second wildfire is on a bigger island, they've managed to keep it away from settlements so far.
21:39:58 <metasepia> ESSA 302120Z 13013KT 9999 BKN016 M03/M06 Q1028 R01L/410153 R08/410150 R01R/410159 TEMPO BKN013
21:39:59 <oerjan> miraculously no one has died yet.
21:40:19 <boily> FireFly is living in a moist Sweden.
21:40:29 <boily> oerjan: that's good.
21:40:41 <FireFly> I'm trying to figure out which of the numbers is moistness
21:41:12 <FireFly> moisture* is probably the correct word
21:42:02 <oerjan> oh wait there were 3 wildfires, also that one in lærdal a couple weeks ago. which got some international coverage.
21:42:05 <olsner> boily: it's actually finally snowy sweden (mostly, anyway)
21:42:46 <oerjan> FireFly: the /M06 dewpoint thing
21:42:51 <olsner> wildfires in norway? at this time that is actually ridiculous :S
21:45:26 <oerjan> they say it's because of the huge high-pressure area in western russia
21:46:05 <oerjan> it keeps all the moist low-pressure areas from entering
21:47:33 <metasepia> EFHK 302120Z 13009KT 9999 FEW014 M12/M16 Q1040 NOSIG
21:48:12 <oerjan> well the dewpoint tells how dry the air is, iiuc
21:48:25 <olsner> newspapers were warning for the RUSSIAN COLD here earlier, maybe you got the RUSSIAN DROUGHT instead
21:48:41 <fizzie> The Norwegian fires have been making the headlines in Finnish papers.
21:50:11 <olsner> apparently nothing about it in sweden ... it's more interesting that someone made a web site for searching public court documents
21:50:38 <olsner> that and 600 cases of norovirus
21:55:30 <fizzie> The Swedish website made the news here, too.
21:55:43 <fizzie> Something about how it'd be unambiguously illegal in Finland and whatnot.
21:55:59 <fizzie> At least according to a Noted Expert in Something or Other.
21:56:29 <oerjan> doctor of somethingology
21:56:51 <olsner> I think anything based on public documents (which the site *claimed* to be) would at least have to be ambiguously illegal
21:57:13 <olsner> but maybe only The Government has the right to spread public documents
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22:07:06 <oerjan> here in norway there was just some noise with someone complaining about mobile banking apps having too much access to the phone
22:10:49 <oerjan> from the answer my bank gave, it seems android apps have the misfeature that they have to ask for all capabilities at installation, even those needed only for optional features.
22:12:17 <olsner> yeah, all apps ask for all permissions and usually get them
22:12:57 <oerjan> while iphone only asked for a permission once it needed to use it
22:15:06 <oerjan> olsner: um the bank app definitely didn't ask for all permissions, just what it might need - it was just more than you'd expect. also that android didn't support getting the contact list without automatically getting the list of messages.
22:15:46 <oerjan> (in older versions, anyway)
22:32:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:33:14 <oerjan> `run sed -i 3d bin/learn
22:33:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:34:33 <oerjan> the info was both unused and out of date, anyway.
22:35:52 <oerjan> <int-e> and darn, is there a new URL for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? Gregor? <-- AAAARGH
22:36:10 <boily> Gregor: I think people are AAAAARGHing at you.
22:36:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:39:15 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it's one thing to remove HackEgo's access to the logs, a completely different thing to remove our ability to browse the repository for vandalism
22:41:10 <oerjan> boily: clearly the end times are near
22:42:31 <oerjan> huh near and next are originally inflexions of nigh
22:45:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/learn
22:46:00 <oerjan> @tell Gregor also breaks `paste
22:46:18 <boily> @tell Gregor AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH (for good measure)
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22:47:58 <Taneb> Today I caught myself wondering if matrix transposition was a contravariant endofunctor on the category formed by matrix multiplication
22:48:14 <Taneb> When I realised I don't actually have much idea what that would entail
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22:49:25 <olsner> and then you woke up relieved that you didn't actually wonder about that in reality?
22:49:26 <oerjan> Taneb: hm yes, i think it is.
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22:52:38 <boily> Taneb is evolving into an Abstract Mathematician!
22:52:46 <Taneb> oerjan, is knowing that particularly useful?
22:52:51 <Gregor> oerjan: I didn't "remove" anything, I'm just moving it to a new server and it's taking some work. Don't panic X-D
22:53:21 <oerjan> Gregor: can i at least flail?
22:53:39 <Gregor> So long as you're dignified about it.
22:54:05 <olsner> boily: isn't a mapole pretty similar to a flail?
22:54:06 <boily> 9 doctors out off 10 recommend a daily dose of flailing.
22:54:27 <boily> olsner: it's more rigit, and goes into the polearms category. you're thinking of halberds.
22:54:44 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc it generalizes to adjoints of linear transformations
22:54:52 <Taneb> Does restricting the matrices to have a non-zero determinant form a subcategory of that category?
22:55:22 <oerjan> Taneb: well then you only get square ones
22:55:46 <oerjan> in fact that's precisely the isomorphisms, i think
22:56:15 <olsner> boily: a flail is pretty much not a polearm though
22:57:33 <oerjan> Taneb: there are some elementary proofs in hilbert space theory that are basically just mucking around with adjoints/transposes
22:58:03 <oerjan> because hilbert spaces are self-dual for this purpose
22:59:08 <boily> olsner: the mapole is a polearm, the flail is a “maces & flails”.
23:01:24 <oerjan> Taneb: the bras and kets in quantum mechanics are basically dual in this sense - when you move an operator from one to the other, you must take the adjoint of it.
23:01:50 * oerjan is thinking vaguely here
23:02:54 <oerjan> (adjoint = transpose + conjugate every element, on the matrix level. that makes it work better with complex vector spaces.)
23:06:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ od -Ax -tx1z -v $@
23:07:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/[^ ]*$/"$@"/' bin/hd
23:07:28 <HackEgo> "$@" \ od -Ax -tx1z -v "$@"
23:07:45 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/[^ ]*$/"$@"/' bin/hd
23:07:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ od -Ax -tx1z -v "$@"
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23:39:10 <kmc> apparently there's a privilege escalation hole in Linux X32 ABI
23:40:18 <FireFly> That sounds interesting, do you have a link about it?
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23:41:12 <kmc> https://twitter.com/djrbliss/status/429032775165820928 has all the information i've found
23:41:20 <kmc> spender says it's an arbitrary kernel memory write
23:41:35 <kmc> he also admits grsec is useless to stop it
23:41:44 <kmc> which is out of character for him
23:44:31 <olsner> is timespec differently sized in x32 and 64-bit?
23:45:02 <olsner> the fix would probably be more informative as to what the problem is
23:45:16 <kmc> yeah, I haven't found that yet but haven't really looked
23:45:23 <olsner> (but the introduction is where it should've been caught)
23:45:57 <kmc> my guess from the presence of COMPAT_USE_64BIT_TIME is that it's differently sized in i386 compat mode vs. x32
23:46:04 <kmc> this is in net/compat.c after all
23:46:30 <kmc> dunno though
23:47:15 <kmc> I don't know much about how x32 is implemented
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23:53:59 <olsner> dunno much about x32 either, but I'm guessing they've tried to reuse stuff from 64 or 32-bit as much as possible, and either can be just as wrong in subtle ways
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