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00:17:19 <shachaf> this .gif makes a good point http://www.mu6.com/Pascal_Triangle/Extended_Pascal_400.gif
00:19:10 <zzo38> What kind of good point?
00:21:40 <zzo38> Also, I notice it says "Rights under GNU" (I can't actually read it, but it looks like that) at the bottom. What exactly does that mean?
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01:12:47 <zzo38> Hello, is this working now?
01:15:44 <oerjan> are they dos'ing freenode again
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01:53:19 <zzo38> I am working on rewriting a QBASIC program in 6502 assembly language
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02:34:42 <zzo38> Is there something wrong with this Freenode?
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03:23:56 <quintopia> zzo38: yes. lots of failures. cloaks are offline.
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03:45:11 <kmc> > chat.freenode.net has address 127.0.0.1
03:45:42 * kmc got here by connecting directly to wolfe.freenode.net
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03:46:45 <copumpkin> yeah, apparently part of their anti-DDOS measures
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04:08:30 <zzo38> So is it working a bit better now, it is possible to read each other's message by now OK?
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04:26:27 <myname> zzo38: you are SO zzoic
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10:58:27 <itsy> Apparently I can't leave the house because there's an armed siege :-(
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11:38:34 <itsy> b_jonas: also, I think it might rain...
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11:40:52 <itsy> I don't really know the details. It's probably just a guy who won't answer the door to the police, so they send in the armed police to intimidate him.
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13:34:36 <boily> good February morning!
13:35:25 <fizzie> Good Febreze afternoon.
13:36:07 <metasepia> ENVA 031320Z VRB04KT CAVOK 08/M03 Q1010 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 21014KT
13:36:09 <boily> were there any wisdom-additions during the weekend?
13:36:12 <metasepia> CYUL 031300Z 02006KT 15SM OVC240 M12/M16 A3029 RMK CI8 SLP261
13:36:39 <fizzie> It's a warm again here.
13:38:29 <oerjan> boily: if we're to believe the repository, there were no changes for 6 days, until just a few hours ago (not wisdom related).
13:38:41 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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13:39:00 <oerjan> however the browser was broken, so whether it's actually up-to-date i dunno...
13:39:16 <oerjan> i _distinctly_ recall addquoting.
13:39:30 <fizzie> I think I broke metasepia and boily. :/
13:39:50 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
13:40:04 <fizzie> (There's also no HackEgo.)
13:40:42 <fizzie> And fungot's not here, either. (!)
13:40:51 <fizzie> It's a bad day for bots.
13:40:54 <oerjan> EgoBot: WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE
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13:43:44 <boily> finally connected.
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13:44:06 <boily> apparently freenode has SSL troubles this morning.
13:44:44 <fizzie> It has all kinds of troubles.
13:44:58 <metasepia> EFHK 031320Z 19007KT 0800 R04R/P1500N R15/1300N R22L/P1500N R04L/P1500D FZFG VV002 M00/M01 Q1021 NOSIG
13:45:13 <fizzie> Though it looks different that what it usually does.
13:46:00 <boily> oh, the Mythic Negative Cow Club!
13:46:07 <oerjan> boily: i think Gregor`'s moving of hackego is not going well, and the repository browser is missing at least one quote i _know_ i added yesterday.
13:46:36 <oerjan> also hackego is not present.
13:47:12 <oerjan> boily: does temperature have the buddha nature?
13:47:22 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RYHN they must've changed something.
13:48:08 <fizzie> Added them runways, at least.
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13:48:38 <boily> I noticed his screaming absence from the channel.
13:49:21 <oerjan> i have no mü but i must scream
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13:58:24 <callforjudgement> boily: -mist- [As Globa As I Can Notice] Sorry folk! We're currently having the DDOS. I guess it will stop at some point. We do not have any information for you about it at this time. Have a cup of tea, or watch TV for a while until it blows over.
13:59:10 <oerjan> what if it NEVER STOPS
14:01:29 <boily> the Mandarin versions are either “wú” or “mó”, Cantonese “mou4” and Japanese “mu”. I felt the #Esöteric version would have none other than a nice diæ̈resis.
14:03:54 <oerjan> you are technically correct, the best kind of correct
14:04:43 <boily> callforjudgement: t. tdh.
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14:13:21 * boily test, test, test, test, retest, test again...
14:13:22 <boily> hm. I have serious multi-minute lag. let's reconnect...
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14:14:09 <itsy> What's up with freenode today?
14:14:55 <b_jonas> itsy: freenode is feeling ill
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14:15:45 <int-e> I heard on #haskell that there was/is? a DDOS attack on Freenode.
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14:18:56 <boily> stupid idea: if freenode has DoS problems, can it deploy its own botnet to DDoS the DoSsers?
14:19:20 <b_jonas> boily: how would that help?
14:19:34 <int-e> The whole point of DDoS is that there are many attackers and few targets.
14:20:03 * boily maplerases the stupid idea.
14:20:50 <FireFly> Earlier today chat.freenode.net completely refused my connection attempts
14:20:57 <FireFly> So yeah, feeling quite ill I bleieve
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14:21:18 <FireFly> Pretend I know how to sple
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14:22:00 <FireFly> fungot: any comment on the bot uprising that we have witnessed today?
14:22:01 <fungot> FireFly: where do things go faster if you shake it up a little bit fnord, like fnord
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14:22:03 <oerjan> FireFly: chat.freenode.net was redirected to localhost, i saw in the logs
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14:22:33 <int-e> oh. dns cache poisoning? nasty.
14:22:39 <FireFly> fungot: well, shaking up freenode is bad, mkay?
14:22:40 <fungot> FireFly: oh, cool. i like fnord.
14:22:49 <oerjan> int-e: i thought it was a countermeasure, actually
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14:23:20 <int-e> could be, but then it's an unpleasant one with lots of collateral damage.
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14:29:41 * boily sings a bardic song to entertain Freenode and give it buffs... “I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay ♪”
14:30:20 <oerjan> "Bluff Bluff Bluff the Stupid DOSsers..."
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14:33:26 <fizzie> They called it a countermeasure.
14:34:15 <fizzie> "We're currently experiencing what appears to be a DOS attack against our servers. Some servers are offline, and local IPs appear in the rotation, meaning that some connections will fail." says the topic of #freenode.
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14:42:13 <callforjudgement> or poison DNS caches to point them at localhost rather than somewhere more interesting
14:43:42 <b_jonas> you're on #esoteric and you don't understand why people do pointless stuff?
14:44:57 <oerjan> callforjudgement: it's because they HATE OUR FREEDOM hth
14:45:18 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: I don't consider the (ontopic) work #esoteric does pointless
14:45:30 <callforjudgement> I consider it potentially pointful just with a really low success chance
14:45:45 <callforjudgement> and, well, it earned me enough money to live on for a year, so it was worthwhile for me at least
14:45:47 <boily> b_jonas: everything we do ain't pointless. it's all part of a Grand Scheme. (I think. maybe. perhaps. well, in my fantasies, at least, so that's a start.)
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14:47:14 <FireFly> Speaking of pointless things, what happened with trying to find the midpoint of #esoteric?
14:47:15 <int-e> More importantly, esoteric programming languages don't actively hurt anybody.
14:47:34 <FireFly> int-e: even brainfuck derivatives?
14:47:44 <int-e> FireFly: ignorance is bliss, in that case.
14:51:18 <int-e> FireFly: It's not like esoteric language creators go around taking hostages and forcing people to use the languages. At least I'd like to believe that.
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15:49:51 <fizzie> TIL: When you buy stuff for $2 or so from ebay, what you get might not always be of high quality.
15:56:09 <boily> imho, a live bobcat for 2$ is nice. lots of meat!
15:56:29 <boily> (hopefully the bobcat's. I have an emotional attachment to mine.)
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16:00:24 <quintopia> Go write a Spiral program. Every minute you wait, I turn up the voltage.
16:01:48 <fizzie> It was a 52-to-58 mm "step-up" ring, for attaching filters to a camera lens.
16:02:10 <fizzie> Except it's got a ding in it, so it's no longer circular and the threads are all wonky, so you can't actually, you know, attach it to a lens.
16:02:48 <fizzie> Curiously, the envelope doesn't have any scratches, so perhaps it was pre-dinged before postage.
16:03:19 <fizzie> (I like the word "ding".)
16:07:13 <quintopia> hmm can you build a spike pit under the seller's living room?
16:10:38 <fizzie> That doesn't sound quite feasible.
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16:11:38 <quintopia> perhaps not, but it does sound like a lot of fun
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16:17:09 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140203-ding.jpg <- see
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17:13:28 <zzo38> The 6502 instruction set has NOP immediate where STA immediate might logically fit.
17:14:28 <FireFly> So essentially jump-over-the-next-byte?
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17:15:39 <FireFly> I don't understand the IA-32 reference :( "02 /r ADD r8,r/m8" ← I don't understand what /r there signifies
17:15:58 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, that is what NOP immediate does.
17:16:29 <FireFly> Seems weird to me for a NOP opcode to take an operand
17:17:11 <fizzie> FireFly: x86 has nops with operands.
17:17:43 <fizzie> FireFly: It's an easy way to make different-length nops if you have all kinds of addressing modes and such that can end up with operands of different sizes.
17:17:47 <zzo38> Only some of the NOP opcodes take operands; some don't.
17:18:24 <zzo38> They are all the same speed though.
17:18:52 <fizzie> The basic 0x90 NOP doesn't; the 0F 1F /0 takes a r/m16 or r/m32 operand, depending on operand size.
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17:20:22 <fizzie> You can make a nop of any size from 1 to 9 bytes (and possibly above, but that's where the table in the manual stops) with those two, by selecting the proper operands and prefixes.
17:24:59 <zzo38> 6502 also has NOP with different addressing modes, all of which are loads I think, and take the same time as other loads of those addressing modes but don't affect any flags or registers. It is also possible to use longer instructions that act similar to shorter ones and are just as fast too, for example ALR #$FF should be like LSR A but longer in case you need to change the instruction alignment or something like that.
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17:31:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: modern x86 also has lots of different nops nowadays, with different addressing modes,
17:32:16 <b_jonas> and conflicting statements in the intel vs amd optimization guides on which nops are best to use for padding (seriously)
17:32:48 <zzo38> Can you tell GCC which ones to use?
17:32:50 <b_jonas> mind you, they can be conflicting, that only means one is better to use on intel cpus and the other are better on amd cpus, but it's still funny
17:33:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: possibly. there's an interface at least for telling what cpu to optimize for, whether it will affect these nops I can't tell
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17:34:50 <callforjudgement> now I sort-of want to make an esolang entirely based around NOPs with side effects
17:34:59 <b_jonas> these don't have side effects
17:35:26 <callforjudgement> but it's unclear what the distinction is between a NOP with a side effect, and a command
17:35:28 <b_jonas> there are plenty of strange instructions that do have side effects as well of course
17:36:02 <callforjudgement> it's basically just "use the address calculation code to do arithmetic"
17:36:21 <zzo38> The NOPs in 6502 do load the data they are pointing to, but then ignore it.
17:36:24 <callforjudgement> given that it calculates an address, then does nothing with the memory it points to
17:36:39 <b_jonas> but it changes a register!
17:36:45 <callforjudgement> I can imagine that LEA in x86 loaded the address it pointed to once, but it certainly doesn't do so nowadays
17:37:00 <b_jonas> there are some prefetch instructions that you can think of as noops with side effects to optimize something later if you want such things
17:39:11 <b_jonas> then every cpu has a few such instructions that are sort of nops in that you can insert them anywhere without breaking the program, but not necessarily _remove_ them from a program without breaking it; or the reverse, ones you can remove from any program without breaking it but you can't just add them without breaking something.
17:40:23 <b_jonas> well, every modern cpu at least
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17:46:50 <kmc> callforjudgement: reading from memory can have side effects, so I would guess not
17:47:24 <callforjudgement> hmm, I liked my mentally confused model of x86 history in which the A20 line reset the processor
17:47:36 <int-e> callforjudgement: I very much doubt it ever did that; memory mapped IO is quite old. Memory areas not being present were the norm, and such memory access is abysmally slow.
17:47:54 <int-e> (lea, accessing memory)
17:47:55 <zzo38> Which addresses on PC have side effects for reading?
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17:49:18 <kmc> zzo38: I don't know of any on PC but it is possible to build an x86 system with such addresses, anyway
17:49:53 <kmc> also accesses may fail due to segment limits or paging
17:50:12 <b_jonas> kmc: exactly, and x86 even explicitly supports that because it lets you configure memory areas to like five crazy modes telling how much caching and pre-reading etc the cpu can do,
17:50:28 <int-e> I expect that even reading CGA memory caused grainy screens.
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17:50:35 <b_jonas> with the normal mode being used for ram which the cpu can assume works like ram, and crazier modes used for memory-mapped io
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17:56:26 <int-e> Hmm. Ok, the 486 introduced on-die caches, so that's when things became really interesting. (Some 386 boards had CPU-external caches and a couple of 386 clones had on-die ones. I didn't know that.)
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18:00:28 <b_jonas> huh? didn't all 386s have some on-die caches already?
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18:02:36 <int-e> No. The 386 had a 16 bytes prefetch queue for instructions though, which visibly violated memory ordering (writing to the next instruction would not affect execution).
18:03:26 <b_jonas> so it had off-die caches? did those run on the same clock cycle as the cpu?
18:03:33 <b_jonas> or at least did some of them run that way?
18:03:52 <int-e> Probably. I never had one of those.
18:04:20 <int-e> (I had a 386 once but without additional caches.)
18:04:21 <b_jonas> as for just prefetching instructions, well sure, wasn't that like started with the 6502?
18:05:48 <callforjudgement> but what if someone jumps to a memory-mapped address, but there's an interrupt on the same cycle, then the interrupt handler rewrites the return address on the stack?
18:06:44 <int-e> There were only two innovations on the 486: 1) including FPU and 2) adding a cache, both on the same die. Oh, and selling broken chips; AFAIR, early 486SX were 486DX with broken (and disabled) FPU; and some early 487 were actually fully functional 486.
18:07:05 <boily> fungot: do I exist now?
18:07:05 <fungot> boily: neither " studly" nor " fnord fnord
18:07:24 <boily> fungot: good enough for me.
18:07:24 <fungot> boily: old-style let ( which you're considering calling with).
18:07:41 <boily> fungot: indeed, I consider calling the Classical Let.
18:07:41 <fungot> boily: that is more fnord then scheme, and math. i guess it's implementable, and that is? :p
18:08:14 <boily> fungot: the Old Let of Yore has been implemented ages ago, although with a little bit less fnord.
18:08:14 <fungot> boily: argument checking or a check type? fnord
18:08:30 <boily> fungot: argument. type systems weren't as developped as they are now.
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18:09:41 <b_jonas> int-e: no way! the 486 introduced the cmpxchg instruction, which counts as an innovation to me.
18:10:05 <int-e> b_jonas: oh! right, fair enough.
18:10:36 <b_jonas> didn't they introduce a few more instructions too? those probably aren't really innovations like cmpxchg, just optimization stuff, but I wonder now
18:11:05 <callforjudgement> (and how do you determine whether it is or not, on a single-core processor? interrupt handlers?0
18:11:09 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it's for atomic test and set
18:11:15 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: yes, inteerrupt handlers
18:11:33 <callforjudgement> I know why a cmpxchg instruction would normally want to be atomic
18:11:35 <int-e> (Though cmpxchg is something that doesn't work very well without caching infrastructure. the CPU has to announce that it owns a small part of memory (a cache line) exclusively, and the rest of the system has to respect that.)
18:11:43 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it matters even for single cpu, because an interrupte can cause a task switch to another process which could observe an inconsistent state
18:12:25 <int-e> Lock cycles did the same before, but they were expensive. (xchg has always been atomic.)
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18:12:30 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: though wait
18:12:45 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: you're right, if it's a single cpu and no extra hardware, then there isn't much point asking if it's atomoic
18:12:51 <b_jonas> because the instruction itself can't be interrupted
18:13:10 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: still, it's an instruction you need because the multiple instruction emulatsions you can do on a 386 CAN be interrupted,
18:13:24 <b_jonas> which is why you need such an instruction even on a single-cpu system with no extra hardware
18:15:51 <callforjudgement> int-e: you can write a correct lock even with no atomic primitives but assign-constant, IIRC
18:16:18 <b_jonas> ah, apparently some (not all) 486 cpus have the cpuid instruction. you could say that's sort of an innovation.
18:16:21 <callforjudgement> clearly it can't be done without at least some guarantees of the value memory will take in the middle of at least one instruction
18:16:40 <callforjudgement> hmm, isn't CPUID pointless unless all CPUs you'd want to use it on have it?
18:17:00 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: not it's not. x86 does have a way to detect whether cpuid is supported,
18:17:22 <callforjudgement> screwing with the interrupt that Linux translates as SIGILL? that's what I'd guess
18:18:27 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: as for implementing lock, 386 (and earlier x86) does have a way to implement a lock, because they do hvae enough instructions to implement an aomtic _boolean_, sort of, but not enough to implement a lockless atomic full-word integer
18:19:55 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: lockless means you can alawys update the value of the atomic number without having to schedule other threads that are holding the lock so they can release it, so eg. you can even update a lockless atomic from a signal handler, but you can't wait on a lcok from a signal handler because the same thread outside the signal handler might be holding that mutex
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18:20:18 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: assignments are atomic if you do them right, but that's not enough
18:20:28 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: with just atomic assignment you can't implement a lock
18:20:34 <b_jonas> because you don't know what value you have overwritten
18:20:45 <b_jonas> you need somethign that can atomically read AND write the same bit
18:20:48 <int-e> There used to be tons of assembly snippets for detecting CPU versions. CPUID totally spoiled that kind of fun.
18:20:50 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: you can, but you need all the processes involved cooperating, and with unique IDs
18:20:57 <callforjudgement> you need one variable for each of them and one shared one, IIRC
18:21:19 <callforjudgement> basically it involves doing things in an order which always allows you to detect if the value got overwritten and try again
18:21:46 <b_jonas> int-e: don't worry, stuff is still complex with cpuid because of old cpus and historical cruft and because of intel/amd doing stuff differently
18:22:10 <callforjudgement> hmm… if you assume that halfway through a write, no memory locations other than the one you were writing to have a changed value
18:22:13 <b_jonas> int-e: so often you have to do like five tests to find out if a feature is supported if you want to go by the book and make sure it works on all cpus, past and future
18:22:21 <callforjudgement> it's probably possible to implement a lock with no atomic instructions at all
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18:22:45 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: or do what icc does and just grep for "GenuineIntel" in the ID string
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18:23:51 <callforjudgement> actually I'm surprised nobody's written a program that automatically patches icc-generated binaries to fix the CPU ID chek
18:24:31 <b_jonas> int-e: as in, first test for a cpu that is at least 186 with the push sp instruction (or something like that), then if it's at least 286 with dunno what instruction, then if it's at least 386 with the pushf/popf instruction, and then test if it has cpuid with the pushf/popf instruction but a different bit (I could be mixing this up), then check four different cpuid values, each of which is valid only if the previous one has some bit set correctly,
18:24:44 <b_jonas> and only if all that succeeds can you be sure you can use a feature.
18:25:32 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it does, but one of them pushes hte value of sp before and one pushes the value after the push
18:25:37 <int-e> callforjudgement: does push sp push the new or the old SP? that's the difference you'll check
18:25:50 <callforjudgement> this is surprisingly similar to detecting the INTERCAL variant you're running on
18:25:53 <b_jonas> and it might not be 86 vs 186, it could be something else
18:26:01 <b_jonas> I'm not sure which one is which
18:26:04 <b_jonas> and there might be some shortcuts too
18:26:09 <callforjudgement> I guess the real question is whether you can subsequently correctly restore the stack pointer with pop sp
18:26:18 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: there's no pop sp
18:27:03 * boily pop pop pop pop pop ♪
18:27:56 <int-e> http://f.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27307
18:28:05 <b_jonas> ah, apparently 486 also introduces a bswap instruction whcih lets you swap endianness of 32 bit integers with a single instruction
18:28:42 <callforjudgement> the x86 series was always full of crazily specific instructions that hardly anyone uses
18:28:57 <b_jonas> what? that's _not_ a crazily specific instrunction
18:29:18 <b_jonas> there are crazily specific instructions for historical compatibility
18:29:24 <b_jonas> some of them are thrown out in x86_64 of course
18:30:07 <int-e> salc is fun because it's almost the same as sbb al,al
18:30:19 <int-e> (but doesn't affect flags)
18:30:34 <int-e> (oh and it's 1 byte shorter, 1 instead of 2)
18:31:24 <b_jonas> no look, lahf/sahf are z80 compatibility instructions,
18:31:34 <int-e> b_jonas: still crazy
18:31:45 <int-e> callforjudgement: so does salc
18:31:52 <b_jonas> and the decimal instructions and the parity flag are also way crazier
18:32:13 <callforjudgement> you have to set or clear the carry manually if you want to do that
18:32:30 <int-e> the undocumented aam 13 / aad 13 is also fun (especially since some clones only implemented the documented base 10 versions)
18:32:40 <b_jonas> int-e: what? what's aam 13?
18:32:59 <int-e> same as aam 10, but in base 13. (the base can be any unsigned byte)
18:33:33 <int-e> so ... ah' = al / 13, al' = al % 13.
18:34:07 <b_jonas> the crazy part of salc is that it's undocumented, and that 386 already has a documente two-byte equivalent (setc al) iirc
18:34:29 <int-e> callforjudgement: yes.
18:34:50 <b_jonas> where by undocumented I mean that neither intel nor amd documentes it
18:34:51 <int-e> b_jonas: didn't they document it eventually? I forgot.
18:34:58 <callforjudgement> that instruction actually does seem genuinely useful, but it should probably work on larger registers than bytes
18:35:07 <int-e> I learned it from the TASM instruction set reference ;)
18:36:10 <int-e> setc al will be 3 bytes.
18:36:53 <b_jonas> the craziest instruction imo is arpl. the crazy part is that it takes up one of the precious 256 primary opcode bytes because it was added in 286 and at that point only privilaged instructions were prefixed
18:37:09 <int-e> *and* it will set al to 0 or 1. It's not the same at all ;)
18:37:09 <b_jonas> 386 was the first cpu to add general purpose instructions with a prefix byte so they don't take up instruction space
18:37:30 <int-e> callforjudgement: adjust request privilege level ... uhm ... I forgot :)
18:37:45 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: dunno, it does some crazy very simple arithmetic thingy on a number that you rarely need
18:38:04 <int-e> something like "take current pl and some passed in a register; set pl to the maximum of those."?
18:38:12 <int-e> callforjudgement: 80286
18:38:19 <int-e> perhaps 186, I never dealt with that.
18:38:38 <callforjudgement> although it's logical that it exists, given the numbering scheme
18:38:39 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: 186 only adds a few instructions
18:39:11 <int-e> people call it 586, but I think that's not official.
18:39:35 <b_jonas> int-e: is the 686 also non-official?
18:40:08 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: yeah, components having short numbers worked well when creating a new chip was really expensive
18:41:10 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh. Some clones carried on the tradition. That may explain the 686.
18:41:47 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: what? no way
18:41:56 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I mean, for a cpu it can be that expensive,
18:42:03 <b_jonas> but for some ordinary small chip it's way cheaper
18:42:20 <b_jonas> cpus are complicated of course, more complicated than they were in the hayday
18:42:44 <callforjudgement> actually, IIRC the main issue in constructing complex chips is that they use more silicon area
18:43:00 <callforjudgement> and a single impurity has a decent chance of throwing off the circuit
18:43:15 <callforjudgement> so the larger the area, the greater the chance that the chip will hit at least one problematic impurity and not work at all
18:43:29 <callforjudgement> whereas with a small chip, like 90% of them will work fine, it might only be like 10% for a large one
18:43:41 <b_jonas> and it's impossible to test, yeah
18:43:53 <b_jonas> that's sort of also the problem with tft screens
18:46:06 <callforjudgement> (and along different lines, also the reason that very large screens still tend to be plasma even nowadays)
18:46:36 <zzo38> You could make simpler CPUs though
18:46:46 <zzo38> A lot of modern ones tend to be too complicated
18:47:29 <callforjudgement> the generalized version of moore's law stopped applying to clock speed ages ago
18:48:59 <callforjudgement> I think the current approach to try to get a bit of extra clock speed is to reduce the voltage
18:51:07 <zzo38> You could still simplify it and have a faster speed, possibly by not having implicit caching and pipelining and out of order execution and all of that stuff automatically, and requiring them to be programmed in manually instead, and you could also use multi cores
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18:55:38 <callforjudgement> I just observed someone complaining that TV shows tended to be hosted by celebrities
18:55:56 <callforjudgement> I guess you could get a new person nobody had heard of every week to avoid that, but it'd be awkward
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19:37:14 <int-e> Oh obscure x86 instructions. This is one of my favourite x86 snippets: cmp al, 10; sbb al, 0x69; das. It converts a value less than 16 to the corresponding hex digit (0123456789ABCDEF), all in 5 bytes.
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19:41:31 <kmc> it's too bad that ascii/bcd instructions don't exist in long mode :/
19:43:56 <kmc> with SSE you could load 0x46454443424139383736353433323130 into a register as a lookup table and maybe use it for this
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20:05:02 <b_jonas> int-e: oh wow! so AAM is encoded as two bytes, D4 0A, where the second byte is an immediate giving the base,
20:05:32 <b_jonas> int-e: and AMD actually documents the general form with any immediate
20:06:18 <b_jonas> int-e: intel documents it as well
20:06:53 <b_jonas> I guess I never really tried to understand those six decimal arithmetic byte instructions of x86
20:10:54 <boily> (meanwhile, new unique in DCSS trunk! it's a cat!)
20:12:46 <b_jonas> who is he? does he come from some prior source?
20:12:59 <b_jonas> like, a fantasy novel or role playing sourcebook or something?
20:13:38 <boily> no, she's just Boris' old familiar. she's a level 3 wizard, and'll be encountered pretty early in the game.
20:18:03 <boily> and another unique in the works! Vashnia the elite naga sharpshooter!
20:18:13 <boily> (along with Asterion the bufferd minotaur.)
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20:21:05 <b_jonas> boily: naga sharpshooter? how does that work? I thoguht nagas didn't have hands.
20:23:02 <boily> and once again, she's a she.
20:23:20 <Bike> internet assigned numbers authority on compact disk
20:23:37 <boily> Bike: close. “I Am Not A Crawl Developer”.
20:24:04 <boily> b_jonas: well, a lot of the commits made in the past few weeks concern new monster sets and squads, à la Angband.
20:24:25 <boily> like, you're going to encounter more groups of thematic monsters with speciation and stuff.
20:24:50 <boily> (specialisation? specification? divergemilarity?)
20:37:22 <kmc> shachaf: Rust now supports cross-crate macros, as well as defining "procedural macros" (AST manipulation with arbitrary Rust code) without rebuilding the compiler
20:42:18 <boily> pursuing to the constant deaddition/unremoval of a possible Forest branch, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:hangedman:forest_dispersal&s[]=forest
20:42:51 <boily> I want trees, fungot it!
20:43:41 <Bike> trees in a dungeon?
20:44:30 <boily> don't question the trees!
20:44:48 <boily> trees are nice. they are green. they burn well :D
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20:55:16 <FireFly> Is brainfuck with [] as do-while Turing-complete?
20:56:39 <FireFly> I'm sure someone must've asked themselves that before, but I can't find anything and it's not obvious whether that's the case to me
21:02:27 <`^_^v> does anyone have any recommendations for resources for learning forth
21:03:18 <kmc> what do you mean by "as do-while"
21:03:50 <Bike> `^_^v: http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/ maybe
21:04:29 <shachaf> presumably "[ behaves like do { and ] behaves like } while (*p);"
21:05:29 * boily mapoles the snobbing fungot
21:05:56 <FireFly> compared to the typical while (*p) { and }
21:06:10 <FireFly> essentially, treat [ as a no-op and ] as usual
21:06:32 <fizzie> I have a feeling that was discussed?
21:08:05 <FireFly> Well, I can't find anything, though 'brainfuck "do-while"' might not be the best search query
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21:12:04 <fizzie> I can only find the skip-one variant.
21:14:18 <kmc> i like that a large fraction of all do-while loops in C use the condition "while (0);"
21:14:25 <kmc> possibly even a majority, depending on how you count
21:16:03 <fizzie> For the regular while loop, while (1) probably is quite frequent too. At least compared to any single alternative.
21:18:35 <b_jonas> FireFly: good question. dunno
21:18:52 <b_jonas> FireFly: in this bf variant, what does - do if the cell has value 0 ?
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21:20:20 <FireFly> so [-] would still zero a cell, at least (although, taking 256 iterations if the cell was already 0)
21:21:07 <fizzie> +[-] would be fine even if it didn't wrap around, for any nonnegative value.
21:21:26 <b_jonas> FireFly: my guess is that it's still Turing-complete, but that's just a guess
21:21:42 <fizzie> I have the same guess, but someone should work that out.
21:22:07 <b_jonas> maybe give this language a name, write it up on the wiki :-)
21:22:41 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure creating brainfuck derivatives is a grave sin
21:22:51 <b_jonas> with a simple interpreter (it doesn't have to be fast, just correct and consistent).
21:23:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: but you've already committed that sin. does documenting it make it worse?
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21:25:24 <b_jonas> though you could say I have created one as well by asking how - behaves on underflow
21:25:35 <b_jonas> because that means I imagined at least two possibilities of how it can behave
21:26:19 <fizzie> It's that many-worlds quantum thing. Every decision you make creates new brainfuck derivatives.
21:29:22 <b_jonas> ok, I think I can prove it's turing-complete
21:29:29 <b_jonas> let me run the proof on you
21:31:00 <b_jonas> first, if you have three cells x y z you can copy x to y destroying z the same way as in bf: you zero y and z, then increase y and z as many times as you can decrease x, then zero y, then increase x and y as many times as you decrease z, right?
21:31:07 * boily munches on popcorn while he watches the hot'n'dirty proof action
21:31:23 <b_jonas> now suppose you have a bf program, and I'll tell how to translate this to bf-dowhile
21:32:44 <b_jonas> suppose the original program has brackets nested in at most D depth, then simulate each cell of the original tape by (9*D+9) consecutive cells in the new machine where 9 is a constant later to be determined
21:34:31 <b_jonas> the trick is, to simulate a bf loop, you save a copy of the value of the cell under the pointer when you enter the first iteration of that bf loop, copying it with you to every segment of the new tape you visit all throughout the loop.
21:35:48 <b_jonas> you execute the bf loop like a do-while loop, but not in the same space as the outer code but in new cells in the same segments,
21:36:44 <b_jonas> then in the end of the loop you check that saved value and copy the new values to a conditional place, which is either the outer simulated tape or some junk location, depending on whether the original loop ran at least once
21:36:53 <b_jonas> there are just two problems,
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21:37:18 <b_jonas> one is how to initialize the inner copy of the tape, the second is how to copy it back
21:37:59 <b_jonas> for this you somehow have to track the interval the head has moved during the loop, and also where the head ended up in the end of the loop
21:38:32 <b_jonas> that should be possible with some extra cells in each segment, only I'll have to check if it's also possible in bf-dowhile
21:40:40 <b_jonas> to save the leftmost position the head has moved to, you just reserve a cell in each segment that contains 0 everywhere the head has moved but 1 in the leftmost position, initialize this to 1 where you start, and set it to 0 before every simulated left move inside the loop and to 1 after it
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21:41:24 <b_jonas> then you can seek back there with a do-while loop
21:41:35 <b_jonas> similarly you can save and find the rightmost position and head position -- I think
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21:42:17 <b_jonas> but how do you do a conditional move in bf-dowhile?
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21:42:51 <b_jonas> that is, how to do a conditional copy of a value to a destination cell a fixed offset away depending on the value of a cell a fixed offset away
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21:44:05 <b_jonas> right, I think you can do such a conditional move
21:44:16 <fizzie> The easier way to TCness might be to just adapt some of the things that have been done to show regular brainfuck it.
21:44:22 <b_jonas> you need to set up some cells correctly and it's sort of a waste of space, but I think it's possible
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21:44:44 <b_jonas> and I think you can use that to initialize the copy of the tape as well, though it gets ugly
21:44:51 <b_jonas> I think it's turing-complete
21:45:13 <fizzie> To be fair, you thought that from the start, and that was just lots of handwaving.
21:45:25 <b_jonas> and if D is fixed you can even give a very simple finite automaton translator
21:45:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, but I wanted to convince myself most importantly
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21:50:22 <b_jonas> this would be a very wasteful emulation
21:50:31 <b_jonas> you'd need like a ton of cells
21:50:48 <b_jonas> but then, with brainfuck that shouldn't be surprising
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21:53:53 <b_jonas> also, this can't translate input and output statments,
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21:54:17 <b_jonas> but that's no surprise: in bf-dowhile you can't write a program that either writes empty output or non-empty output depending on the input
21:54:30 <b_jonas> but that's no problem, bf without io is still turing complete
21:56:42 <kmc> shachaf: hm, references are implicitly convertible to raw pointers in Rust
21:56:45 <kmc> that seems weird
22:08:19 <b_jonas> you could mostly fix the output by buffering, I don't know about the input
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22:11:43 <shachaf> kmc: what are rust references?
22:11:46 <shachaf> are they like c++ references?
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22:13:01 <kmc> also known as "borrowed pointers"
22:13:12 <kmc> but "reference" is now the official term
22:14:14 <kmc> C++ references have really weird semantics and aren't really a first class type
22:14:41 <kmc> Rust references are more like plain old pointers, except they're non-nullable and provide memory safety via region checking
22:15:03 <shachaf> so you can use a borrowed pointer as a raw pointer?
22:17:52 <shachaf> doesn't that sort of defeat some purpose or other
22:18:12 <shachaf> well, at least the pointer still counts as borrowed within that block, i guess
22:18:54 <kmc> it doesn't defeat memory safety because dereferencing a raw pointer can only happen in unsafe code
22:25:18 <kmc> shachaf: probably
22:25:20 <kmc> it's a cool language
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23:17:05 <kmc> `relcome Nathanator1416j
23:17:14 <kmc> HackEgo...
23:17:46 <kmc> Nathanator1416j: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:18:33 <Nathanator1416j> Working on a new esolang, BF like, quick quines, but hard to ake complex ones
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23:20:01 <kmc> okay! ttyl
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