00:02:00 <oerjan> <quintopia> :( where is a norwegian when you need one <-- clearly now that boily has changed habits, you have inherited his "never be here at the same time as oerjan" curse hth
00:03:41 <boily> quintopia: I can be Norwegian for you *wink wink*
00:03:52 <oerjan> well metasepia was never here when wanted to do ~metar before
00:04:00 <oerjan> and incidentally, still isn't.
00:04:08 * boily whistles innocently
00:04:23 <oerjan> (not that i've got a particular ~metar need at the moment)
00:05:02 <boily> the needs of the metar outweighs the needs of information.
00:05:14 <oerjan> quintopia: don't listen to boily, he'll serve you fake lutefisk made out of poutine!
00:05:32 -!- metasepia has joined.
00:05:40 <boily> hm... a lutefisk poutine... I'll pitch that Capital Idea at the next joint I visit.
00:05:45 <metasepia> EFHK 132350Z 16010KT 9999 FEW013 BKN018 01/M02 Q1005 BECMG BKN013
00:05:49 <metasepia> ENVA 132350Z 16018KT CAVOK 05/M04 Q0983 RMK WIND 670FT 19023KT
00:06:21 * boily lightly mapoles his bot
00:06:36 <oerjan> i keep thinking KATL should refer to some secret lair inside the volcano.
00:06:38 <metasepia> KATL 132352Z 29008KT 10SM CLR 04/M03 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP113 T00441033 10072 20039 51014
00:07:05 <boily> oerjan: eh? which volcano?
00:07:36 <metasepia> an active volcano in southern Iceland, with an elevation of 970 m, covered by the southeastern part of the M–rdalsjökull Glacier.
00:08:11 <oerjan> i strongly doubt the original had an ndash in that position
00:08:47 <boily> really, Icelandic is making me kveill.
00:09:04 <oerjan> also the name of the dragon in the brothers lionheart
00:10:04 <boily> `learn M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
00:10:30 <oerjan> `? M–rdalsjökull
00:10:30 <HackEgo> M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
00:10:43 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/'M–rdalsjökull'
00:10:44 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/M–rdalsjökull: No such file or directory
00:10:58 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/'m–rdalsjökull'
00:10:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/m–rdalsjökull
00:11:16 <boily> uhm. what is the alphabetic order of an “&”?
00:12:20 <oerjan> well it's a ligature for "et" of sorts, i think
00:13:07 <boily> I put it at the end of the “M” section.
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00:16:35 <boily> there. merged and copied and pushed and everything else.
00:16:39 <oerjan> <quintopia> ais523: odds on resPairate being universal for m /exactly/ 2? <-- you are mean. i just about thought i could get it done for <= 2.
00:17:07 <quintopia> oerjan: hi. i need travel advice if you have any!
00:17:24 <oerjan> boily: i cannot guarantee there haven't been other wisdoms added
00:17:55 <oerjan> quintopia: don't travel, it's dangerous hth
00:18:12 <boily> oerjan: I'll scour and scry and search and sift through the logs for anything Wisdomian.
00:18:14 <quintopia> I will be in Flam,Getranger(sp?),Aalesund,Bergen,and Olden. If you know of anything that would be super-awesome to see in these places i'll thank you to tell me
00:18:34 <boily> quintopia: going overseas? adventuring in Deep Scandinavia?
00:19:58 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ ex
00:20:31 <oerjan> oh hm it's hard to find the diff numbers without the repository browser.
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00:21:12 <boily> I need to buy a non-crappy laptop before mid-April...
00:21:41 <oerjan> quintopia: i hear most foreigners think geiranger is super-awesome all by itself. you could go to the aquarium in bergen.
00:22:03 <oerjan> also bryggen, i suppose
00:22:23 <quintopia> i read something about bryggen. what's there?
00:22:25 * oerjan hasn't been to bergen since he was about 6.
00:22:58 <quintopia> my germanic-language-speaking brain sees "bergen" and just thinks "mountains"
00:23:49 <oerjan> quintopia: it's old architecture, one of the best preserved (perhaps the only? or maybe outside germany) hanseatic buildings
00:24:21 <quintopia> yeah i think that's on the list of things to do already
00:24:42 <quintopia> i enjoyed Rostock, so I ranked it pretty high
00:25:00 <oerjan> yeah i guess it's pretty obligatory if you're on an organized tourist trip
00:25:27 <quintopia> it's not that organized. it's a cruise. we get like 8-12 hours to do whatever we want in each place
00:25:31 <oerjan> if you're in geiranger, i have a hunch you might go glacier climbing
00:25:49 <quintopia> glacier climbing...should i do that?
00:26:29 <boily> climb the glacier! show it who's boss!
00:26:42 <oerjan> quintopia: a guided tour, presumably.
00:27:25 <oerjan> western norway has glaciers close to some of the fjords, anyway.
00:28:21 * oerjan went on such a trip once during a summer school university arrangement, but not at geiranger.
00:28:45 <FireFly> oerjan: oh, that's what the dragon's named after
00:28:54 * oerjan recalls he got a black toe from that trip, it took half a year or so to grow back out properly
00:30:37 <oerjan> quintopia: gangrene is no laughing matter. also, i already regret looking it up on wikipedia.
00:30:44 * boily recalls he accidentally his toenail off one time. apparently Canadian toenails have the same growth rate as Norwegian ones.
00:31:10 <quintopia> i'm sure we've all done it at some point. mine grew back kinda crooked
00:33:47 <boily> I don't know which of my scars is the stupidest. it's either my knee with: a car being washed, a bush and a flowerbed; or my forehead with: a freezer, a furnace airduct and a sewing machine desk.
00:39:47 <Sgeo> Terran Republic = Peacekeepers?
00:40:09 <Sgeo> Certainly seem thematically similar
00:40:18 <oerjan> is this the kind of peace where it's peaceful because no one's alive
00:41:42 <Sgeo> I think the peacekeepers/TR themselves would still be alive
00:42:02 <Sgeo> I guess not quite as peaceful though
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00:50:31 * boily is stuck with http://youtu.be/j-3Fgrn7Rls in his ears ♪
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01:15:16 <oerjan> i hear putting q-tips in your ears is dangerous.
01:17:39 <oerjan> His product, which he named "Baby Gays", [...]
01:19:52 <boily> oerjan: «Mise en garde: Pour nettoyer les oreilles, passer délicatement le cure-oreille sur la surface externe, en évitant de pénétrer dans le canal auditif. Garder hors de la portée des jeunes enfants.»
01:20:13 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: what if my brains are made of qtips?
01:21:22 <oerjan> what if qtips are made of brains!
01:23:00 <Sgeo> "... I purposefully spill mercury ..."
01:23:06 <boily> ah, the good ol' feeling of insanity that this chännel exudes.
01:23:46 <zzo38> I found a program containing a comment "Let's get fired because I wrote this stupid comment"
01:24:16 <zzo38> (It is the only comment in the program)
01:24:31 <Sgeo> I wonder how many Linux-using anti-swearing people know about the swears in comments in the Linux source
01:24:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AK8yg5s2ps&list=PL786EBDC8D2B4CD1D
01:25:05 <boily> quintopia: speaking of brains, you should try smalahove when Norwaying.
01:25:20 <zzo38> boily: Is it good enough, or not good enough? Is it good enough once you put two dots over the "a" in "channel"?
01:25:39 <oerjan> i'm sure smalahove is one of the tricks we pull on foreigners.
01:25:39 <Sgeo> oerjan: same person, but he says it in a differnet video
01:25:48 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGv_YVQHu7U
01:26:03 <Sgeo> Towards the end
01:26:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: he also says he is very careful with the cleaning up
01:26:15 <boily> zzo38: it satisfies me. the ä is idiosyntactic.
01:34:09 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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01:52:39 <Taneb> I seem to recall an esolang unspecified other than a couple of examples
01:53:59 <Taneb> A more interesting looking one
01:54:11 <oerjan> oh there was also ais523's that he'd forgot how it worked
01:54:46 <Taneb> Yes, I think that was what I was thinking of
01:55:26 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn
01:57:54 <oerjan> the talk page has a few more hints
01:58:02 <ais523> as much as I can remember, at least
01:58:43 <Taneb> I think the specifications of my first ever esolang have been finally lost
01:58:51 <Taneb> Probably a good thing
01:59:17 <Taneb> It was a brainfuck second-derivative
01:59:53 <oerjan> that means it's a P fourth-derivative
02:00:32 <ais523> we need to start using P''' for BF
02:02:03 <ais523> hmm, I just thought of a beautiful way to troll oerjan
02:02:12 <ais523> create a language whose name starts with a letter that isn't present in the name
02:02:24 <ais523> like, call it "zxcv" but define the name to start with "m"
02:03:29 <Jafet> Do you have a way to troll oerjan that doesn't involve trolling everyone in general
02:04:26 <oerjan> ais523: don't tempt me to move INTERCAL to between Commercial and Complode in the language list
02:04:53 <ais523> oerjan: if you do, I won't object
02:05:17 <zzo38> I don't object as long as you are also keeping it filed under "INTERCAL" too
02:05:33 <ais523> I'd actually forgotten that INTERCAL was an abbreviation until you mentioned that
02:05:48 <ais523> s/INTERCAL/"INTERCAL"/
02:06:12 <Taneb> Oh god, my live esolang creation is in SIX DAYS
02:07:32 <oerjan> on the sixth day, Taneb panicked.
02:07:55 <Jafet> On the seventh day, add REST
02:08:28 <ais523> Taneb: do you have any ideas that you're going to use? or is the idea going to be worked out on the spot too?
02:08:33 <ais523> also, is this spec or impl or both?
02:09:08 <Taneb> I have a few ideas but pretty vague, I'm gonna try to do some audience participation, too
02:09:15 <Taneb> Probably just a spec, impl if I have time
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02:16:23 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1xu2kv/silk_road_2_hacked_all_bitcoins_stolen/
02:16:36 <Sgeo> I have no idea what's actualyl going on
02:17:19 <kmc> Sgeo: I think Silk Road 2 got hacked and all the Bitcoins were stolen
02:17:51 <oerjan> alternatively, the people adminning Silk Road 2 are pretending so.
02:18:18 <oerjan> at least that was what everyone said the last time this kind of thing happened.
02:19:45 <kmc> oerjan: or maybe that's what they WANT you to think! wait...
02:41:24 <Jafet> It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a HMAC
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02:45:12 <oerjan> i guess you can still call it a social hack
02:46:36 <Jafet> wrapped in a joint
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02:55:52 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
02:57:03 <Taneb> I haven't had authentic weetoflakes in ages
02:57:22 <Taneb> Actually I haven't been awake in time for breakfast in ages
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03:54:59 <oerjan> eating in your sleeping isn't usually recommended.
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04:59:01 <HackEgo> inforkcoin bowickethaxcoin intccoin undericoin doublecoin lyapasscoin cocccoin escutampercoin lessasscoin oracoin tellcoin iagcoin erixcoin reliucoin itnumecoin suxecoin hayrcoin udgedimacoin golfecoin thessimcoin
05:00:11 <kmc> good coins
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05:07:46 <copumpkin> not as good as the btc-e crash the other day
05:08:03 <ais523> "lessasscoin" is hilarious
05:08:08 <ais523> all the other cryptocoins are ass
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05:14:20 <kmc> damn I should have bought
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05:16:57 <kmc> i like "doublecoin", it does all the arithmetic using double precision floating point, wcpgw
05:17:08 <kmc> (please tell me bitcoin doesn't do that)
05:17:40 <copumpkin> that's why they're subdivisible to 10^-8
05:17:46 <copumpkin> because that's the fixed point multiplier :P
05:18:00 <kmc> the bitcoin ecosystem has a lot of clueless people in it now, but it seems like Satoshi and the other OG's knew what they were doing
05:18:11 <copumpkin> except for the bug satoshi baked into bitcoin
05:18:12 <kmc> at least in terms of cryptography & engineering if not economics ;P
05:18:29 <copumpkin> I hear his original code was pretty shitty actually, engineering-wise
05:18:44 <copumpkin> well you know bitcoin has a mini stack language in it, right?
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05:19:18 <copumpkin> one of the commands in that language accidentally pops one extra thing off teh stack
05:19:25 <copumpkin> or something like that, haven't looked at it in a while
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05:19:33 <copumpkin> so any time you use it, you need to push some crap on
05:19:46 <copumpkin> and that's pretty much unfixable without forking the whole shebang, so we're stuck with it forever
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05:20:38 <copumpkin> kind of offends the language geek in me
05:21:38 <kmc> http://tidbit.co.in/ "Monetize without ads. Let your visitors help you mine Bitcoins."
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05:22:13 <kmc> great so now whenever Chrome is chewing bizarre amounts of CPU i can blame it on this
05:23:51 <kmc> "20K hashes/client" /second presumably?
05:24:20 <kmc> TWENTY THOUSAND HASHES, EVER
05:24:40 <copumpkin> it's kind of a miniscule amount, unfortunately
05:24:44 <kmc> so a visitor is worth on the order of 1e-8 dollars per 10 minutes
05:24:50 <copumpkin> there's a reason people don't CPU mine anymore
05:24:52 <kmc> minus pool fees
05:25:05 <kmc> come back with WebCL :)
05:25:05 <copumpkin> they said they were looking into WebGL for GPU mining
05:25:06 <kmc> and litecoin
05:25:15 <copumpkin> but even that isn't really going to make much money
05:25:20 <copumpkin> there's a reason people don't GPU mine anymore :P
05:29:45 <zzo38> Do you believe in Cartesian Duality, Physicalism, Idealism, or Neutral Monism? My opinion is Neutral Monism.
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05:37:53 <pikhq_> copumpkin: Litecoin GPU mining at least still does something.
05:38:55 <kmc> not to mention dogecoin
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05:40:24 <kmc> zzo38: would it be fair to describe these respectively as: both mind and matter exist; only matter exists; only mind exists; only one kind of thing exists and it's neither matter nor mind
05:41:03 <Bike> so webcl's purpose is getting me to mine bitcoins for strangers, huh
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06:03:36 <zzo38> kmc: Almost. Instead of "exist", put "fundamental".
06:03:59 <zzo38> Others are therefore derivative rather than fundamental.
06:05:05 <kmc> in that case I would have to go with neutral monism, as well
06:05:25 <kmc> i'm pretty sold on monism through direct personal experience
06:06:03 <kmc> and it seems very unlikely that humans already understand the universe well enough that our current concepts of "matter" or "mind" accurately describe the one true fundamental thing
06:06:12 <kmc> though if I had to pick one to be closer I would go with "matter"
06:08:55 <zzo38> While that is a valid reason, it isn't how I would do it. Still, of course I don't know either, but I can make opinions, based on what I know about physics and mathematics and stuff.
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06:13:20 <kmc> what are your reasons?
06:14:24 <kmc> (it seems significant that our concept of "matter" has changed rather drastically in the past handful of generations)
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06:16:58 <zzo38> Some of my reasons are difficult to describe, but I can describe some of them.
06:18:41 <zzo38> For one thing, I am considering "matter" as the physical universe which includes matter, energy, subatomic particles, their direction of movement, spacetime.
06:19:58 <kmc> (I think the way science goes at present, if we do discover the one true thing, it's more likely to get labeled as "matter" than "mind" but that seems like a cultural naming preference and nothing more)
06:20:49 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that would be all it is perhaps, but I disagree.
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06:23:20 <kmc> zzo38: with what do you disagree?
06:23:40 <zzo38> kmc: I disagree with that kind of naming scheme, but they can do what they want.
06:24:03 <zzo38> (Both "matter" and "mind" are the wrong name for it.)
06:24:10 <kmc> do you have a name for it?
06:24:44 <kmc> "The truth is five, but men have only one name for it."
06:24:55 <zzo38> I think the "one true thing" is *really* mathematics, and not the universe. The universe is an instanteation of such thing, and it is possible for mathematical formulas to have multiple solutions, or might have no solutions, and therefore, nondeterminism, and furthermore, things that "work out as part of God's plan" or whatever you call that (I don't know a better way to describe it, hence the quote marks)
06:25:17 <zzo38> But I can think of kind of how it would work
06:26:10 <kmc> but if the universe is an instantiation of mathematics, why this particular one? why these particular values for fundamental constants that could be different?
06:26:12 <zzo38> Mathematics is the real reality.
06:26:30 <zzo38> kmc: Because it is what is observed.
06:26:32 <kmc> perhaps the most true model of the universe has no arbitrary constants, though
06:26:59 <kmc> or perhaps other people in different universes with different values are wondering the same thing
06:27:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is possible, but, maybe it isn't the case; it leaves to see whether or not anyone can figure out whether or not it is possible.
06:28:34 <zzo38> But, it is also possible that both those things are possible!
06:36:22 <zzo38> I can also say that, for example, you can have a quantum state vector which has to be longer due to entangled with other things, it can include "mind", but not really; rather it is something else which includes a "mind", but "mind" also includes a "matter" and vice-versa too, kind of, similar to the Taijitu, almost.
06:37:40 <kmc> it seems disappointing that the Taijitu is not recursive
06:38:32 <zzo38> I think I have seen a recursive version.
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07:12:48 <oklopol_> it seems disappointing that the paths in taijitu are not C^2
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07:14:32 <oklopol_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nat%C3%BCrlich_gewachsenes_yin-yang-.jpg nature does it C^\infty like it should be; also i hope you're talking about this symbol.
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07:29:48 <zzo38> I do mean the symbol having the similar shape like that wood
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07:41:54 <fizzie> Subject: ARE YOU DEAD OR ALIVE,FROM CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA
07:42:05 <fizzie> "Thank God that after all your surffer, it is now well with you, looking forward to make the transfer today."
07:42:19 <fizzie> After all that surffer, it is indeed good to get some compensation.
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08:51:12 <Bike> what's a one true thing
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09:17:33 <fizzie> Bike: "One True is the fictional hegemonic software program that takes control of individual human minds and entire human societies in John Barnes' two Meme Wars novels Candle and The Sky So Big and Black; --"
09:17:58 <fizzie> I don't think they were talking about that, though.
09:18:08 <fizzie> fungot: What is the One True Thing?
09:18:08 <fungot> fizzie: unequipped to represent swearing in cartoons? or is it to work between sun systems and other such slime infested garbage.
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10:57:02 <Jafet> What is fungot's opinion about oracle
10:57:02 <fungot> Jafet: so i'm " hqm". oh, this problem.
10:57:19 <Jafet> fungot seems to think it's a problem
10:57:19 <fungot> Jafet: yes, as i can figure out how to use it too. after paying dues on this machine is,
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12:23:59 <FireFly> fungot knows how to wield the One True Problem
12:23:59 <fungot> FireFly: generate an executable.
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16:48:10 <luserdroog> I'm too lazy to download the client, so I'm trying to use the webirc
16:48:22 <luserdroog> I can't figure out how to join multiple channels
16:50:08 <zzo38> I don't know either
16:52:37 <Taneb> I am running into the problem that I don't know how to not write in Haskell any more
16:52:53 <Taneb> luserdroog, #channel1,#channel2
16:53:01 <Taneb> Separated by commas, no spaces
16:53:40 <Taneb> Writing Haskell becomes a problem when you're actually writing Python
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16:54:56 <newsham> maybe you can let djinn write the code for you
16:58:51 <zzo38> Taneb: You can write in multiple kind of programming languages though isn't it?
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16:59:22 <Taneb> zzo38, Python does not support tail recursion
17:01:31 <zzo38> In a few cases it could be possible, if implemented properly
17:01:37 <`^_^v> because guido says being able to inspect the stack is more important
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17:07:26 <zzo38> Anoter way would be to implement explicit tail recursion
17:09:26 <oerjan> Taneb: I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM
17:09:45 <oerjan> also, doesn't /join #channel work from the web client?
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17:12:01 <oerjan> i'm just wondering why luserdroog didn't know about that
17:12:27 <oerjan> or if he did and it doesn't work
17:18:34 <HackEgo> 217) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
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17:57:37 <zzo38> Are there drivers for connecting displays and keyboard and other devices using ethernet?
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18:00:30 <Bike> you have a keyboard with ethernet?
18:03:01 <zzo38> I don't have such a thing
18:03:28 <zzo38> I have a keyboard with PS/2
18:04:22 <Bike> why do you want drivers then
18:05:55 <zzo38> So that it can be use in case I do have one. Also with file system device (possibly using Plan 9 protocol and/or FTP); that would be the most useful use of devices with ethernet
18:06:24 <Bike> do they even exist?
18:07:35 <Bike> doesn't look like it
18:12:40 <quintopia> zzo38: there are tools for transmitting i/o over ethernet etc. between computers, which, if you have enough computers, may accomplish the same!
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18:47:01 <fizzie> I don't think many (any?) of those are particularly Ethernet-specific, though.
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20:45:38 <kmc> http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.7087 I like how this abstract makes "the D-Wave machine" sound like an alien artifact discovered on the far side of the moon
20:49:05 <kmc> a quantum vibrator...
20:53:06 <kmc> used to produce orgasmic superpositions
20:54:17 <int-e> kmc: did you come from blog.cr.yp.to?
20:55:01 <Slereah__> Don't watch porn, you'll collapse their wavefunctions!
20:57:26 <int-e> 'precise terminology', djb is funny. "The latest speed reports for fully homomorphic encryption are—let me use precise technical terminology here, since I'm a big fan of careful benchmarking—ludicrously slow, but without ideal lattices they would be utterly ludicrously slow."
20:57:31 * kmc mis-parses "come from" due to previous topic
20:57:35 <kmc> yes, that's where I got the link
21:01:10 <ais523> did the previous topic involve modern INTERCAL?
21:05:41 <Slereah__> Is there any quantum esolang by the way?
21:05:44 <ais523> "Quantum INTERCAL" is an awful name, it's basically just multithreading
21:05:57 <ais523> and yeah, there are quite a few, but they all seem to misunderstand quantum computation
21:06:05 <ais523> and wouldn't actually be any faster on a quantum computer
21:06:22 <Slereah__> Well esolangs aren't really made for speed
21:06:28 <int-e> quantum intercal would have to allow superpositions of DOs and DONTs.
21:06:36 <Slereah__> I do have a degree in quantum physics
21:07:08 <ais523> int-e: DO ABSTAIN FROM (5) WHILE REINSTATING IT
21:07:13 <ais523> at least, I think that's the syntax
21:07:25 <ais523> it might be "WHILE LEAVING IT REINSTATED"
21:08:33 <int-e> So I was right. I had not seen Quantum INTERCAL before, just the concurrent one.
21:08:34 <Slereah__> And have a bunch of various states
21:08:55 <Slereah__> Like electrons would be bits and photons would be tits (eheheh)
21:09:29 <int-e> hmpf. "threaded", of course.
21:09:58 <kmc> programmers misunderstanding quantum????? why i never
21:10:13 <Slereah__> and I guess a bunch of detectors too
21:10:22 <Slereah__> With some RGN to simulate le quantum
21:10:45 <kmc> QC is so alluringly close to things that programmers find familiar, but it's actually completely weird and alien
21:10:54 <kmc> which causes a lot of confusion
21:12:32 <ais523> the normal assumption is that all the threads are separate and can communicate with the outside world
21:12:46 <ais523> actual quantum computing is more like, you have all these threads, but only one of them, chosen at random, actually does anything
21:13:09 <ais523> but this isn't the same as just running one thread chosen at random because they can interfere with each other, altering the probabilities of which one is chosen
21:13:34 <Slereah__> Well technically it's more like having one thread all along
21:13:36 <kmc> the idea that your computer's state is a 2^n-dimensional complex vector is pretty alien to traditional CS
21:13:45 <Slereah__> And then you project part of it upon measurement
21:15:49 <ais523> one thing I love about quantum computing is that you can never guarantee a useful answer
21:16:00 <Slereah__> Well technically it's also true with actual computing
21:16:01 <ais523> all you can do is increase, as far as possible, the probability that the answer is useful
21:16:14 <ais523> then you check it on a classical computer to see if it was right or not, if not, try again
21:22:48 <kmc> but a lot of classical algorithms are like that too
21:23:24 <kmc> it's an open question whether classical computers can do more in polynomial time when algorithms are allowed to be probabilistic
21:23:29 <Slereah__> There are actual articles about time travelling quantum computing
21:29:17 <ais523> kmc: is that P=NP, or some other problem?
21:35:10 <kmc> the class of probabilistic algorithms I had in mind is BPP (there are some others)
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21:36:35 <kmc> those are poly-time algorithms where you can decrease the error rate by a factor of 2^n by running it n times
21:38:43 <kmc> BPP contains P, but it's not known whether NP contains BPP or the other way or neither
21:38:55 <kmc> (which is super counterintuitive to me and I tend to remember it wrong)
21:42:59 <kmc> so yeah the open question I refer to is P ?= BPP
21:43:19 <kmc> definitely
21:46:18 <kmc> a world where BPP is bigger than NP would be pretty weird
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21:53:13 <ais523> kmc: are there any problems known to be in BPP but not known to be in NP?
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23:02:47 <kmc> ais523: I'm not sure. http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/11425/problem-in-bpp-but-not-known-to-be-in-rp-or-co-rp seems relevant
23:03:19 <kmc> (NP contains RP, and co-NP contains co-RP)
23:03:53 <kmc> it's thought that BPP doesn't have any complete problems
23:12:52 <kmc> classes like NP have an obvious complete problem, e.g. { (M,X,T) | nondet. tm M accepts X within polynomial time bound T }
23:14:33 <kmc> every nondeterministic TM recognizes /some/ language in NP
23:14:45 <kmc> but it's undecidable whether a nondeterministic TM recognizes a language in BPP
23:18:34 <kmc> you can think of NP as a probabilistic class where false positives aren't allowed, but the probability of a false negative can be any number less than 1 (i.e. all but one path rejects)
23:19:53 <ais523> kmc: that's similar to the oracle machine definition
23:25:29 <FreeFull> Jeez, that was a strong gust of wind
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23:27:19 <ais523> kmc: imagine a P-time program that has a TC oracle to consult with, but the oracle might be untrustworthy; a problem's in NP if the P-time machine can solve it all the time with a trustworthy oracle, and with no false positives even with an untrustworthy oracle
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23:28:39 <kmc> interesting
23:31:50 <oerjan> "TC" is unnecessarily precise though, anything between an NP-oracle and an "everything" oracle would work just as well i think...
23:32:06 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, but you can't use an NP-oracle because that would be a recursive definition
23:32:16 <oerjan> right, but e.g. PSPACE
23:32:30 <ais523> yeah, a PSPACE oracle would work just as well
23:32:43 <ais523> btw, the oracle definition makes the difference between NP and co-NP pretty clear to me
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23:35:07 <oerjan> i would assume you've read that PSPACE itself is equivalent to another such setup, where the P-time program can use random dice throws (as long as the oracle cannot know those)
23:36:38 <oerjan> s/know/predict/, i guess
23:37:39 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, those definitions seem less pure to me than the one for NP, though
23:38:18 <kmc> black panther party with np oracle
23:39:08 <oerjan> hm i wonder if there's anything interesting if the oracle _could_ predict the dice throws
23:41:52 <quintopia> ais523: the difference between NP and co-NP used to be clear to me. all the classes in the PSPACE hierarchy were. it was all just swapping universals with existentials, or prepending an extra one of those
23:42:13 <quintopia> but now i've forgotten exactly what the proposition all those quantifiers get prepended to is
23:46:42 <oerjan> i'd think any unquantified boolean expression in variables...
23:47:01 <quintopia> yeah but then what comes before the expression?
23:47:35 <oerjan> checking whether the whole thing is true or false
23:48:05 <oerjan> yes, with x an arbritrary number of variables though
23:49:18 <oerjan> well those are complete problems for the class
23:52:35 <oerjan> no, not quite, for P itself
23:52:47 <oerjan> you need a circuit then, not just an expression.
23:52:58 <oerjan> at least if you use LOGSPACE-reductions.
23:53:34 <oerjan> if you use P-reductions, you can of course use something weaker, even trivial.
23:54:27 <quintopia> i thought there was some restriction on the expression P? like it has to be DTM-evaluatable in polynomial time or something?
23:55:20 <oerjan> well by expression i mean an _actual_ expression built up with variables and boolean connections like and, or, not
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23:55:31 <oerjan> and that can be evaluated in LOGSPACE iirc
23:55:48 <oerjan> which is weaker than P
23:57:24 <oerjan> at least i recall thinking about evaluating expressions in LOGSPACE once, it's a little tricky if the expression tree is unbalanced
23:57:24 <quintopia> yeah, it's polynomial time as long as the expression is finite then, which all unquantified expressions in a finite number of variables are...
23:58:18 <oerjan> quintopia: well the expression is part of the problem you are solving, which thus by convention has to be expressible as a finite string...
23:58:20 * quintopia hands oerjan a poly-time 3-SAT solver
23:58:40 * oerjan goes to break some RSA
23:59:23 <kmc> it's easy to build a poly-time SAT solver, it just needs to double the amount of energy / matter in use at each time step, so.... watch out
23:59:36 * oerjan reads the fine print: O(x^Ackermann(5,5))