00:16:57 free as in nothing left to lose 00:17:32 kmc, help I am really nervous right now and I do not know why 00:19:03 damn 00:19:10 I don't know how I can help 00:19:45 I think it may because I ate some cheese really quickly 00:28:03 So far nothing bad has happened 00:31:15 Taneb: free seats are seats that aren't being used. therefore you mean that all software should not be used? 00:31:51 Yes 00:32:10 So if anyone wants to use any software, they can just find it and use it 00:32:20 Because nobody else is 00:33:30 free beer speech seats 00:34:36 Taneb: rather, if anyone wants to use any software, they shouldn't 00:46:46 <^v> im having trouble making a malbolge inturpreter 00:47:07 <^v> methinks i am loading the program wrong 00:47:10 <^v> what is the format 00:47:43 <^v> im doing a base conversion from "!"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~" to "012" 00:48:13 <^v> then splitting it by 10 trits 00:49:02 <^v> wait 00:49:16 <^v> i probably did it horribly wrong 00:50:03 well the input should be ASCII codes 00:50:47 <^v> so a string.byte? ._. 00:51:08 possibly... 00:52:05 in particular, ! would be 33 in decimal or ...lessee... 1020 in trinary 00:53:45 -!- constant has joined. 00:54:45 @run showIntAtBase 3 intToDigit (ord '!') "" 00:54:47 "1020" 00:54:54 -!- drlemon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:55:27 <^v> cool 00:55:28 <^v> .mb (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc 00:55:29 <^v> -^v- pong, Üù``AJ¥óú¸X 00:55:50 <^v> (^v is a bot on that net, and i am pong) 00:56:08 <^v> there are probably more characters though 00:56:18 <^v> it removes invalid ones 00:56:32 <^v> but yeah, it no werk 00:56:45 technically i believe you should err out on invalid ones 00:57:09 <^v> well the removing part is in my respond function 00:57:29 <^v> so i dont have to filter newlines n stuff for every single function 00:57:40 well duh 00:57:58 <^v> hmm 00:58:13 <^v> this is the first time i got it to print something 00:58:27 i mean that the input reading should err out on invalid characters, only whitespace should be ignored 00:58:50 <^v> i might have just fcked up the instruction that changes a 00:59:15 <^v> oerjan, i do a gsub to remove invalid chars .-. 01:00:53 oh well 01:02:55 <^v> removed some mod 3^10 and got -^v- pong, §ç&ñFÏ‘æT 01:05:00 note as usual that the reference interpreter and original specification don't match each other on i/o. 01:05:09 in case you are working from the latter. 01:05:23 (the wiki has a specification based on the interpreter) 01:05:42 <^v> im working from the wiki 01:05:56 good, good 01:06:57 note one advantage to erring out on invalid characters is that you actually get a warning if your program reading is buggy... 01:07:34 oh and btw you cannot detect those with regexp, i think. 01:07:47 because they depend on the mod 94 position. 01:07:59 <^v> am i supposed to increment c after every instruction 01:08:12 <^v> even if it jumped? 01:08:43 hm how was that 01:09:12 <^v> c=mem[d] 01:09:49 <^v> when inturpreting assembly i dont increment eip if it was changed by jmp 01:12:21 hm i think you are. 01:14:34 yep you are, checked the c interpreter there is no special case for i. 01:15:08 <^v> ok 01:15:50 <^v> -^v- pong, §ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ 01:15:53 <^v> this is strange 01:16:26 <^v> the repeating ww is similar to the repeating ll in hello 01:16:39 heh 01:16:58 those are not ascii characters though. 01:17:29 dammit hackego is gone 01:17:51 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:17:59 ^ord §ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ 01:17:59 194 167 198 146 119 119 115 88 194 182 194 165 44 63 195 147 195 177 01:18:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:18:13 <^v> aww, i like hack ego 01:18:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 01:18:23 <^v> also, my client probbably turned into unicode 01:18:26 it has a command for calculating unicode codepoints 01:18:29 <^v> leme get an actual hex dump 01:19:12 my client would have turned it into unicode too, anyway 01:19:12 or wait hm 01:19:16 > map ord "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ" 01:19:17 Can't resolve type class Functor f 01:19:18 [167,402,119,119,115,88,182,165,44,63,211,241] 01:19:25 that's better 01:19:53 <^v> mfw 01:19:55 <^v> 0xA70x830x770x770x730x580xB60xA50x2C0x3F0xD30xF1 01:20:02 <^v> oh, im confused by the 0x 01:20:16 > map (chr.(+(-11)).ord) "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ" 01:20:16 No such variable chr. 01:20:17 "\156\391llhM\171\154!4\200\230" 01:20:23 <^v> 0xA7 0x83 0x77 0x77 0x73 0x58 0xB6 0xA5 0x2C 0x3F 0xD3 0xF1 01:20:32 that doesn't look like it helped 01:21:02 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc 01:21:02 Hello World! 01:21:41 well you are printing the right _number_ of characters, which is sort of a hint that everything used other than output is working 01:21:58 how are you storing trits 01:22:58 @run zipWith ((-)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ" 01:22:59 [-95,-301,-11,-11,-4,-56,-95,-54,70,45,-111,-208] 01:23:02 <^v> as numbers 01:23:34 <^v> then i use base conversion when i need to rotate them 01:23:56 <^v> though can probably use some math instead 01:24:01 yes. 01:24:33 <^v> also when using crz 01:25:14 <^v> this is strange /me slaps wikipedia 01:25:23 <^v> For example, crz 0001112220, 0120120120 gives 100102221. 01:25:36 @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "§ƒwwsX¶¥,?Óñ" 01:25:38 [(72,167),(101,402),(108,119),(108,119),(111,115),(32,88),(87,182),(111,165)... 01:26:06 <^v> yet the table says different 01:26:22 <^v> the table says 2,2 = 1 01:26:35 <^v> but the second to last digit is 2 01:26:40 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:26:44 -!- tromp has joined. 01:27:02 um are you using the wikipedia specification, i was looking at esolang. not that there should be a difference 01:27:23 <^v> the tables are same 01:27:33 <^v> just the wikipedia example is weird 01:29:06 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:29:08 there are spurious last 0 digits in the arguments 01:29:10 -!- tromp___ has joined. 01:29:18 no wait 01:29:43 there's a missing digit in the answer, of course 01:29:54 it's only 9 digits 01:29:57 *trits 01:30:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:31:48 <^v> /stab wikipedia 01:32:55 someone misunderstood what the numbers were for https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=590632950&oldid=587042925 01:34:42 i should have noticed that edit, i watch that page 01:35:09 <^v> progress! i forgot to increment d 01:35:18 <^v> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnnóà¾¹fB!" 01:35:22 <^v> derp 01:35:23 undid that misedit 01:35:25 <^v> @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnnóà¾¹fB!" 01:35:26 :1:42: 01:35:26 lexical error in string/character literal at character '\157' 01:36:00 @run zipWith ((,)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óà¾¹fB!" 01:36:01 [(72,102),(101,89),(108,110),(108,110),(111,93),(32,243),(87,224),(111,190),... 01:36:13 ^v: you must use utf8 with lambdabot. 01:36:53 interesting, ! is now correct :P 01:37:39 @run zipWith ((-)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óà¾¹fB!" 01:37:40 [-30,12,-2,-2,18,-211,-137,-79,-71,6,34,0] 01:38:03 funny how you're still printing the right number of characters 01:38:21 hm an idea... 01:38:36 ^v: are you remembering to initialize the rest of memory correctly? 01:38:50 <^v> yeah i should be doing that properly 01:39:04 <^v> ill try offseting it and seeing if i derpd 01:39:11 It is apparent that malbolge is not only hard to write programs for, it is also hard to write programs to. 01:39:57 @run zipWith ((xor)`on`ord) "Hello World!" "fYnn]óà¾¹fB!" 01:39:59 [46,60,2,2,50,211,183,209,203,10,38,0] 01:40:28 i can't see any _obvious_ connection between the right and wrong chars 01:41:54 <^v> does hello world use jump? 01:42:03 perhaps that program simpl... precisely what i was going to say 01:42:45 because if not, then as long as you are doing the right instructions, but wrongly, you would get the right number of output but completely scrambled 01:44:10 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)" 01:44:11 .. \ \ .N0l 01:44:17 !malbolge (=<`#9] 01:44:18 No output. 01:44:29 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/ 01:44:30 .�==Y 01:44:33 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY3 01:44:34 ..NN 01:44:37 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6 01:44:38 .o 01:44:42 !malbolge (=<`#9]~ 01:44:42 .$ 01:44:47 !malbolge (=<`#9 01:44:48 # 01:44:51 !malbolge (=< 01:44:51 No output. 01:44:53 !malbolge (= 01:44:54 No output. 01:44:55 !malbolge ( 01:44:56 No output. 01:45:04 !malbolge (=<` 01:45:04 9 01:45:10 ok that's pretty short 01:45:18 ^v: perhaps try that shorter program? 01:45:49 <^v> :D crash 01:45:56 fancy 01:46:32 <^v> aand one of the memory addreses is somehow a string.. 01:46:40 i don't think a malbolge program should technically be able to crash, iirc 01:47:48 -!- tromp has joined. 01:48:54 i recommend debugging stuff. 01:49:17 -!- tromp___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:49:40 Just call this a variant of malbolge and challenge people to write helloworld in it 01:50:27 good policy 01:51:29 <^v> okay, i just set a __newindex erroring when it tries to set anything to a string, and it diddnt error 01:51:36 <^v> the amount of impossible 01:52:30 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:52:55 -!- erdic has joined. 02:10:03 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:14:16 -!- Bike has joined. 02:26:40 <^v> woooot 02:26:42 -!- drlemon_ has joined. 02:26:44 <^v> okay it works 02:26:49 <^v> thanks oerjan 02:26:57 congrats 02:27:55 <^v> ill start optimizing and post the cods 02:31:05 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:32:43 -!- Bike has joined. 03:02:28 -!- BeingUntoDeath has joined. 03:02:33 WOAH. 03:02:40 There's an esoteric channel? 03:02:47 :) 03:02:53 !welcome BeingUntoDeath 03:02:54 BeingUntoDeath: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 03:03:19 aha! 03:05:50 wait... so what the hell is an esoteric programming language? 03:05:56 i'm new to programming. 03:05:59 learning ruby. 03:06:31 weird for the sake of weird 03:06:56 hmmmmm. i'm a student of esoterica and the occult. how are they related? 03:08:33 not, except that i used to tell people their futures for money, and now i'm here 03:09:04 what? lol. 03:09:04 i've invented a form of divination which involves clicking the random link on jerkcity 03:10:03 i want my first app to be for occultists 03:10:20 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 03:10:31 but ive wanted to do it in ruby. 03:10:32 i think zzo does astrology programming but he's not here right now. 03:10:41 fascinating. 03:11:15 anyway if kmc wasn't clear enough, esoteric programming languages are weird for the sake of things. for example, /// has a weird name, and also has only one operation, string replacement. the wiki has lots of examples. 03:11:34 usually the weirdness is something CS-theoretical rather than being devoted to Imhotep 03:12:09 Bike: that is incorrect, it has _two_ operations. 03:12:17 (the other is printing) 03:12:20 the other is your mother 03:13:26 i think you are confusing me with agathe heterodyne hth 03:13:28 *agatha 03:16:33 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 03:17:08 Ugh I want cough drops but as candy but that's probably bad 03:18:17 lol! 03:18:18 -!- Bike_ has joined. 03:18:36 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:18:41 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:19:00 my precognitive abilities are as of yet too weak to stave off connection failures 03:19:43 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:22:06 -!- BeingUntoDeath has quit. 03:22:27 -!- BeingUntoDeath has joined. 03:35:55 <^v> o/ i finished it somewhat http://hastebin.com/dekarabime.lua 03:38:26 https://github.com/mitsuhiko/jinja2/blob/27ffd01f95cad7740497a32b22e4ef9d29762162/jinja2/debug.py#L267 03:38:30 def _init_ugly_crap(): 03:38:53 it's not a real party until you're calling the CPython API through ctypes 03:39:15 <^v> me no likey python 03:40:05 scary code there 03:40:45 <^v> malbolge is scarier 03:43:43 -!- Bike_ has joined. 03:44:25 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:44:55 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:45:09 by the by, if i make an amusing esothing that isn't really a language, where should i dump that 03:49:03 -!- Bike_ has joined. 03:49:18 i was wondering the same thing back when i looked at roman numeral look-and-say 03:49:38 never wrote it up properly, anyway 03:50:55 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:50:57 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:55:54 -!- Bike_ has joined. 03:56:12 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3). 03:56:40 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:56:42 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:59:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 03:59:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:00:28 -!- tromp has joined. 04:00:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 04:00:37 Blah Microsoft not documenting internally used files 04:01:00 Which have a strong probability of harming other organizations if incorrect 04:01:32 Sgeo: That is... super vague 04:01:35 but intriguing 04:01:55 yeah, actually writing it up and constructing it is the main obstacle. especially since i have actual obligations for some reason 04:01:57 IE compatibility list 04:02:26 also it /might/ be one of those things where in a paper you'd relegate it to an appendix and it'd be ten pages of numbers, i don't know yet 04:04:02 -!- shikhout has joined. 04:04:34 http://www.sleepphones.com/mp3/free-mp3-downloads I assume the binaural stuff is BS? 04:04:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:05:13 Still nice music 04:06:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:06:58 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 04:08:43 My dad used to believe in that stuff 04:09:10 And then I talked to teachers at school about it, and then my dad said I shouldn't do that. (The teachers had no reaction that I remember to the idea) 04:18:29 <^v> maldoge http://puu.sh/7AWIf.png 04:19:18 binaural beats are pretty crap yeah. 04:19:32 more interesting than most of that ilk of stuff, though. 04:19:35 ^v: haha 04:20:12 <^v> that has to be the worst looking image ive made in months 04:20:21 <^v> but its funeh 04:20:50 "brainwave entrainment" changed my life. 04:21:12 or at least, it seemed to be a major changing factor in some of my behaviors/how i cognized my abilities. 04:21:22 unles it was placebo, of course. 04:21:47 either way, i'm a huge fan of binaural beats, isochronic tones, brainwave entrainment in general. 04:22:12 My dad never thought of it as entertainment, more of a sleep/concentration aid 04:22:23 i have a light/sound machine that flashes lights and that took it to another level, at a time when I'd already have claimed binaural beats to have changed my life. 04:22:33 entrainment 04:22:39 Oh 04:22:48 patterns are "entrainment", i think. 04:22:54 Interesting science fact: One of the founders of endocrinology (the studies of hormones, etc.) was popular known for objecting fluid from dog testicles into his bloodstream so as to regain sexual virility (he was like eighty at the time) 04:23:01 injecting, not objecting 04:23:17 There's a pair of eye masks that flash lights into your eyes to try to help lucid dreaming 04:23:22 <^v> sounds epilepsy inducing 04:23:28 I assume that that actually works, if you can train yourself to recognize the flashing lights 04:23:29 i think Being is talking about a dreamachine. 04:23:30 entrained* sorry. 04:23:37 and yes sgeo, that is something else. 04:23:43 that for a lucid dreaming cue. 04:23:55 I love lucid dreaming, haven't had a lucid dream for a while though :( 04:23:58 dreammachines are different as well. 04:24:12 you odn't need equipment for it, man, just count your fingers and check clocks and such 04:24:28 right! wish it was that easy for me. 04:24:31 http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1002158 04:24:39 that was at sgeo, i'm sure you have other stuff goin on 04:24:42 http://treehovse.blogspot.com/2011/09/visor.html 04:24:47 i've had one 90% successful lucid dream, lost it completely. 04:24:48 There's a test that I tried in a dream once that failed 04:24:56 I think trying to breath with my throat closed. 04:25:08 wow. 04:25:10 Other tests worked better, but I think I was less likely to try those other tests regularly 04:25:25 just do them in real life a lot. 04:25:26 not one of the ones i normally think about using. 04:25:39 if i ever actually "thought" about using them during dreams at all. 04:26:22 http://wealoneonearth.blogspot.com/search/label/goggles 04:26:33 "One hypothesis is that the flickering interacts with natural ongoing oscillations in visual cortex, exciting a specific frequency of brain waves. This increases the activity in visual cortex. Activity can increase enough to overload the circuitry the brain uses for interpreting what it sees, causing you to see things that aren’t really there." man i have no idea how these people think brains work but damn if it doesn't sound exciting 04:27:06 oh shit this paper has bifurcation theory :o 04:27:07 that's right. at least that's similar to how i conceptualize it, and i tihnk i'm right. 04:27:10 drugs are also pretty cool & fun 04:27:35 i could take about 1-3 seconds of my light/sound machine on dmt. 04:27:43 i only go for natural highs kmc, which is why i'm injecting myself with silicon 04:27:45 before it was jesus and super spirally spirals... too much. 04:27:47 very intense. 04:27:57 LOL, bike. 04:28:18 also silicone, but that's not for the high 04:28:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:28:48 i'm thrilled you brought up brainwave entrainment, sgeo. one of my favorite things in terms of... psychological healing and psychedelic experience. 04:29:02 shee-it, one of the links on this page has a half page url 04:29:10 i think i'm going to save it for later. it must be preserved 04:29:27 i did research on brainwave entrainment in undergrad. 04:29:37 Bike: is it about this topic? 04:29:48 nah, some homework 04:29:54 There's a YouTube video that if you stare at it, it causes vision to distort for a bit 04:29:58 where'd you get that paragraph from ? 04:29:59 kmc's link there just has a doi, sensibly enough 04:30:09 the thing i quoted? the treehovse link 04:30:42 Bike: doi, not to be confused with the psychedelic amphetamine of the same name 04:30:49 the link with the long url is just to a Cell paper through like nine proxies because lolpaywalls 04:30:55 OH wow, amazing. 04:30:56 it's a ``hell of a drug'' as they say 04:31:18 kmc: endocrinology is fun. i found out dopamine and ecstasy are both phenylethamines. Whoa, Man. 04:31:23 yep 04:31:30 -!- nisstyre has joined. 04:31:42 i really want to understand the chemistry better because it seems so arbitrary 04:31:49 throw on a hydroxy WHOOPS YOU'RE HIGH 04:31:49 your paragraph sounded like a light/sound machine... that thing must be awesome. 04:32:01 yep 04:32:25 Relatedly I found out hormones are ridiculously hard to make 04:32:42 like, i've heard of some bad syntheses before, but we're talking literally twenty steps, some of which take days, just to get a precursor 04:32:51 terence mckennas spoken on that precisely. i've had a psychopharmacology class, but we didn't go into that. guess it's neurochemistry. 04:32:52 LSD is pretty hard to make too 04:33:01 too bad 04:33:07 what about dhea? 04:33:13 growing psychedelic mushrooms is relatively easy, though 04:33:21 http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ 04:33:23 doesn't help that i don't even understand the notation. superscripts on a delta? whoooo knowsssss 04:33:23 oops 04:33:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbHEC8Snwhk 04:33:54 ^^ at least that works on me. Although I think it's too long, could be shorter for probabl similar effect 04:34:00 that's good stuff 04:34:26 hey if you want a really weird optical illusion try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollough_effect 04:34:33 if that's even the right term for this 04:34:40 maybe when i'm old and insane i could have a garden of this shit. like some plants for curare, some pufferfish for TTX 04:34:44 since it can last 3 months 04:34:52 kmc: yeah no thanks 04:34:59 I do not want distorted vision for that long 04:35:03 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:35:09 What's distortion 04:35:20 maybe the distortion... is within you all along. 04:35:43 <^v> :P 04:35:53 <^v> all i get is a headache 04:36:12 apparently the visual system in locusts (and several other model insects) behaves differently under different octopamine levels, and the levels fluctuate throughout the day anyway, apparently indicating the cells' properties change all the time (presumably adapting to different light levels etc.) 04:36:17 p. cool, i m o 04:36:46 i wanna be a cuttlefish 04:36:48 or a cuddlefish 04:37:08 their neurochemistry is probably less known. bastards are all... complicated. 04:37:32 Squid Giant Axon would be a good name for a band 04:37:36 i got literal maps of ganglia, man. ridges and shit. the good shit. 04:38:15 I stupidly actually tried it 04:38:19 Not for long 04:38:25 Ugh can I wash out my eyes? 04:38:33 mccullough? 04:38:44 yes sgeo didn't anyone teach you how to use the eye wash station 04:39:10 yes folks, all your favorite bands in this lineup! after the intro set by Mauthner C-Start it's time to jam with Squid Giant Axon! then maybe a slow jam with Oculocephalic Reflex 04:39:29 employees must wash hands before returning to libc 04:39:29 mauthner and the c-starts, perhaps 04:40:15 lol! so you guys work with recursion? 04:40:35 [joke] 04:40:52 my friend has a shirt that just says "RECURSION" on the front in big block letters 04:40:57 I'm curious, i've wanted to get into it, but i don't know much about data structures yet. 04:41:02 i literally can't even think of a joke any more that's how sick i am of recursion 04:41:03 lol. 04:41:10 recursion jokes rather 04:41:14 ... 04:41:26 recursion itself is still cool 04:41:30 i heard you like recursion so we put recursion in your hugalagahlalhaghahghagalhahglhal 04:42:10 * Sgeo fixes Bike 04:42:11 it's all broad though. like whoa, put a thing in a thing?? i learned the concept early enough that it's hard for me to understand people not getting it, sadly 04:42:24 i don't even own a recursion 04:42:28 Bike: but Y? 04:42:33 that's all you recursion is? 04:42:53 i guess i'm talking about neural networks then? 04:42:56 what 04:42:59 these use recursion, yes? 04:43:08 * kmc -> afk 04:43:08 -you, sorry. 04:43:10 Sgeo: what about y 04:43:24 Bike: he fixed you 04:43:35 BeingUntoDeath: recursiveness in neural networks usually means a network with cycles, which is pretty distinct from the usual CS concept, but related 04:43:49 or maybe i'm thinking 'recurrent' god i feel so stupid right now 04:43:55 I think BeingUntoDeath got the wrong idea about what recursion is 04:44:32 okay, thank you bike. 04:44:32 As though he tried to learn it from this conversation, I mean 04:44:37 'recursive' has like thirty billion meanings anyway 04:44:41 lol. 04:45:03 BeingUntoDeath: recursive just means inductive 04:45:10 nothing more to it 04:45:12 oh, and if you're interested in neural networks. the artificial ones are /nothing like real ones at all/. maybe you already know that but jesus it's annoying when people don't 04:45:15 ;DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 04:45:32 right, i know that. :) 04:45:43 thank you oklopol 04:47:06 it's like, you have a lemma, man, and then the lemma like... proves itself with a different n.... maaann........ 04:47:31 ok i'm going to stop acting stupid now. sorry about that. just gonna be legit stupid now. 04:48:00 BeingUntoDeath: inductive in the sense that you have that the first and second fibonacci numbers are 1 and 1 and fib(n) = fib(n-2) + fib(n-1) 04:48:54 No, the first and second Fibonacci numbers are −55 and 34. 04:49:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/20qojw/jdk_8_is_released/ 04:49:25 convenient that these things are just a shift away 04:49:42 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:51:24 recursion of course usually implies that the objects we are talking about are computer objects (and not, say, real numbers; then again, most of the interesting well-ordered things readily turn into computer objects, except maybe the well-orders themselves) 04:52:59 Java 9 will have TCO????!?!?!? 04:53:00 :D 04:53:50 Bike: maybe it's okay for me to know because i don't know anything about either of the two; what sort of differences are there between neural networks and... neural networks? 04:54:00 *for me not to know 04:55:31 well, basically, when artificial neural networks (the computer ones) were getting off the ground, it was the forties, fifties. von neumann hisself wrote about them. as you might expect the biological research was, well, we've advanced a lot in seventy years. 04:55:56 "John Conway's Game of Life is some kind of Artificial Life simulation. It's written in Java." 04:56:04 artificial neurons treat individual neurons as discrete input output functions, usually a convenient function (like a sigmoid curve) over a weighted sum of their inputs 04:56:06 I... what 04:56:15 Sgeo: :DSA 04:56:19 computer people kind of ran with that for seventy years 04:56:21 Sgeo: lol 04:56:44 Ok, I think the author of the page was trolling Google 04:56:46 meanwhile biologists found out it didn't work pretty fast. huxley model from squid neurons is like, a fourth degree PDE or some shit, and that's for one neuron 04:56:55 http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/ 04:56:56 also it's shitty 04:57:13 Seems competent enough. View source. 04:57:14 i see 04:57:15 Sgeo: i do a double take every time i see an applet. 04:57:52 basically, biological neurons are complex cell assemblies that work as modulated analog signal processors and require a lot of electrophysics to understand at all. artificial neurons are simpler because why would computer people care. 04:58:21 i mean obviously ANNs are probably useful for something. optimization i guess? beats me 04:59:03 this gets you weird situations like a neuroscientist trying to assign parameters for an organism situation, and using global optimization techniques to do so. possibly you could use an ANN for this. would be funny 04:59:11 Ugh, ended up trying to watch videos of the board game 04:59:17 There's some crappy "new" version 04:59:21 game of life the board game? 04:59:42 Hasbro's 04:59:59 The thing with the cars? 05:00:04 yes 05:00:30 As far as I know, there are only two game of lifes 05:00:41 And one is not a board game, usually 05:00:41 Bike: to me it still sounds like in theory they might be deliberately studying a simplification of the model in order to get at least something out of it 05:01:09 oklopol: you mean computer people? yeah, but what they're getting out of it just isn't going to be that biologically relevant. it's going to be more like advances in ML. 05:01:57 but what if they solve the whole model, then add some components etc and get closer and closer to biologically relevant? i mean i don't think that's what's going on, but i can imagine a world where that's the case :P 05:02:22 (i think it's very playsible that they just ran with it) 05:02:25 *plausible 05:03:35 i don't think they're really trying... even if they were it's quite a trip from http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/2/a/02a0d787371e595719f83f8431ee898a.png to http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/e/c/5ec607907b2588dc038c1ef0168475dc.png 05:04:01 quite an /interesting/ trip i imagine, though 05:04:20 oo the first one is how gibbs measures are born 05:04:42 cool. 05:04:56 fuck yes, same gibbs. 05:05:51 like, if x is some type of energy or something, you want to minimize energy and then as energy increases, that configuration gets exponentially less likely. thus you weigh each state by e^(-x) where x is the energy. or something. 05:06:03 the latter one is the soliton model, which is kind of not mainstream but does have the advantage of explaining how general anesthetics work (we have no idea, which rules) 05:06:08 (the sum on the bottom is because you want them to sum to 1.) 05:06:49 yeah i have no idea what the second one is :P 05:07:09 i don't know how it works at all woooooo 05:07:22 :P 05:08:15 physics is hard. 05:08:55 i was contemplating going on a quantum physics course this spring 05:08:59 but i didn't :( 05:09:33 i flunked a kinematics course once, so imo doomed 05:10:03 F = ma 05:10:20 but like, what if there's lots of ms, man 05:10:33 if there's a lot of as you sum them 05:10:55 thus by induction you also sum the ms 05:11:22 damnn 05:13:17 also i tried to take physics 1 a few years ago but i didn't have time for it :((((( 05:14:12 switch majors. i gotta take courses in half the departments. (switching majors is totally a thing you can do as a whateveryouare) 05:14:50 F = m * dv/dt = m * d^2t/dt^2. f*dt^2 = d^2 t boing boing boing 05:15:08 the problem with switching majors to physics is all the momentum 05:15:18 -!- password2 has joined. 05:15:36 just make a turing machine out of the 5-body problem and they'll clearly accept you 05:15:42 i have done all my courses so i'm not sure switching majors would be of much help 05:16:03 actually the last 8 or so courses i've taken i didn't go to the exam because i didn't want to drop my average 05:16:08 thats the best time to switch. that way you dont have to leave school! 05:16:24 don't stop til lyyou got like forty master'ss 05:16:40 I can't blame inflation for this feeling that $100 was a lot in 2006 but isn't very much now, can I? 05:16:59 a friend of mine is working on something like 3 degrees atm 05:17:01 i'm so jelly 05:17:04 you can, depending on what you're buying. 05:17:16 you could have bought more than 2x as many bigmacs in 2006 with $100 05:17:20 wat do you even do with three degrees 05:17:36 i think he just wants to be an unemployed millionnaire 05:17:47 *millionaire 05:17:50 where's the millionaire bit come from 05:18:04 sgeo: apparently 100 2006 dollars would be worth like $117 now. totes lotsa ca$h 05:18:09 the application process for unemployed millionaire is really selective 05:18:20 bike: now do energy and food inflation 05:18:27 newsham: that's why you wanna have 3 degrees. 05:18:33 who do i look like the dhs 05:18:42 BLS? 05:19:01 don't you say that about my mother 05:19:28 oh, actually this thing i got the numbers from uses the CPI, so HA already incorporated them. 05:20:23 > 237 / 198 05:20:23 1.196969696969697 : Float 05:20:25 1.196969696969697 05:20:34 thats food+beverages 2006-2012 05:20:57 > 239 / 185 05:20:57 1.2918918918918918 : Float 05:20:58 1.2918918918918918 05:21:00 thats energy 05:21:04 http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1401.pdf 05:21:10 dude quit disputing the internet 05:21:25 how has the apples to oranges cost ratio evolved during the last century? 05:21:51 can you be more specific? pacific rose? gala? granny smith? 05:21:55 are we including tangerines? 05:22:07 we are _not_ including tangerines 05:22:23 well here's a graph, featuring several line segments, as well as alphanumeric characters http://www.oceconomy.org/wibmeasures/n3-1.jpg 05:22:23 but otherwise, please integrate over apples with respect to the uniform distribution 05:22:25 -!- chaiomanot has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:22:26 hope this helps 05:22:49