00:00:17 * kmc puzzles through http://z3.codeplex.com/SourceControl/latest#src/api/z3_api.h
00:00:21 <kmc> this is quite the polyglot
00:05:21 <Jafet> This is quite the 7500-line header
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01:18:25 <Sgeo_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumpy'nut
01:18:36 <Sgeo_> What about malnourished kids who are allergic to peanuts?
01:19:02 <Sgeo_> Oh, just saw the article mention that
01:19:31 <Bike> maybe... there's more than one kind of food.....
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01:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, it is a bit weird to use something so prone to awful side-effects...
01:22:04 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nut_warning_1.jpg BE AFRAID
01:23:13 <Sgeo_> I used to be scared to eat peanut products in public because was worried what if someone nearby had an allergy
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01:26:34 <kmc> what changed?
01:27:03 <Sgeo_> I think multiple people telling me not to worry about it
01:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> he became hard-heartedly numb to the fate of his fellow man
01:28:44 <Sgeo_> I was sick the other day, and in CVS, and a guy with a nasal ... tube, thing goes into the aisle I was in. What if I accidentally caused him to get sick :(
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01:29:56 <Sgeo_> Like, a tube stretching from nose to elsewhere, I think for breathing
01:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well if there was a serious risk do you think he'd be wandering around in public
01:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Sometimes more significant complications occur including erosion of the nose where the tube is anchored, esophageal perforation, pulmonary aspiration, a collapsed lung, or intracranial placement of the tube." -- wp's article on the food tube things
01:31:09 <pikhq> Usually you have those when you have trouble breathing.
01:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you even explain that last one, "yeah the tube that was meant to go in your stomach ended up in your brain"
01:31:48 <pikhq> Illness isn't any *more* of a concern than it would be for any other old man though.
01:32:26 <Sgeo_> My parents once threatened to get a food tube for me in order to get me to eat
01:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit after trawling the wp article on peanut allergy i found this line in one of the references:
01:35:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Usually, eating is both fun and helpful. Sometimes, it is deadly."
01:37:08 <shachaf> eating is usually deadly to the eatee
01:43:15 <Bike> do you often eat live food shachaf
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01:50:03 <kmc> hm, according to my calculations, both demorgan's law and its negation are true
01:50:07 <kmc> sounds like trouble
01:51:00 <shachaf> which calculations are these
01:51:33 <kmc> wrong ones
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02:28:04 <kmc> fungot: where has everyone gone
02:28:04 <fungot> kmc: you forgot to exit the program
02:28:12 <kmc> fungot: oh i guess so
02:28:13 <fungot> kmc: and i consider myself fairly intelligent, but i
02:30:07 <Bike> current status https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5bhqqUkzo
02:34:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/1031/No-prank-On-Halloween-US-military-forces-train-for-zombie-apocalypse
02:34:59 <Sgeo_> If people keep using 'zombie apocalypse' to mean unexpected, the training may eventually be ineffective, I think, as it becomes 'expected' for training
02:37:17 <Bike> http://www.bogleech.com/comics/comic90-zombiefans.htm
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02:40:47 <quintopia> Sgeo_: i don't think that's the point. the point is more that conditions in a zombocalypse are similar to conditions in civil war zones and other civilization collapses
02:42:00 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/21s7bz/one_step_forward_two_steps_back_by_chris_done/
02:45:23 <kmc> one cool thing about rust is that the designers have actually heard of the stuff in that list
02:46:41 <Sgeo_> I can't visualize Rust getting restarts or image-based persistance
02:47:11 <kmc> I didn't say that Rust has all or even most of them
02:47:19 <kmc> but for the stuff that's missing it's not due to pure ignorance
02:47:24 <kmc> which is often the case in other languages
02:47:58 <kmc> the email about why rust doesn't do TCO started with a paragraph that could be more bluntly summarized as "god damnit yes we know what tail calls are and why you want them"
02:49:55 <Bike> Oh, why doesn't rustc do tco?
02:50:06 <Bike> (i mean i can see why you might not want to /guarantee/ tco)
02:50:18 <kmc> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-April/003557.html
02:58:09 <Sgeo_> Would only interacting with humans via IRC be as bad for mental health as never interacting with humans at all?
03:00:57 <kmc> in a short-term / acute sense, interactions on IRC often make me feel a lot better
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03:05:36 <zzo38> Maybe you could implement only tail calls when mentioned explicitly in the program using a "tail call" command?
03:07:02 <zzo38> (And even then, it shouldn't make it a tail call unless it can actually do that optimization.)
03:07:28 <Bike> http://extraneato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Death-Bear.png hell yea
03:07:30 <^v> i made hello world in fishstacks
03:07:37 <^v> but im too lazy to add it to the wiki
03:07:38 <^v> iiisdsiiiiiiiipiiisisipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisddsdddddpiisiisddddpiiissiiiiiipiiisiisddddddddddpiiisiisdddddddpiiisisiiiiiiiipiiisispiisiisdddpppp
03:11:21 <kmc> pppppppppppppiss
03:11:38 <kmc> Sgeo_: any reason you ask?
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04:05:55 <Sgeo_> Saw something that made me think of it, I forgot what
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04:47:10 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:538_Arborol.png orgo's a hell of a drug
04:49:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Decaferrocenyl_ferrocene.png behold
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05:18:29 <HackEgo> wharnandcoin bruermerititcoin p12coin orthycoin barnatacoin prfcovoluckcoin lencercoin ><>coin subechalocoin thisalecoin andcoin relliacoin accingcoin yabatcoin instifcoin dolcoin sqicoin nancoin ontrandatiocoin tropotcoin
05:18:54 <coppro> why doesn't esotericoin exist yet?
05:20:17 <kmc> `run tr ' ' '\n' < quotes | shuf -n 50 | tr '\n' ' '
05:20:18 <HackEgo> it a drugs, other likes "can <fizzie> then the <Bike> who you page being but Kapital some with soup you've -- what in <fizzie> a the sugary <EgoBot> #%%:]__t�# just is by Warrigal: machine i’m all of 1146 good <kmc> "bottle". clearly over well, that's warm of kite if a
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06:03:12 <Sgeo_> Sometimes I feel like Haskell playing with laziness is like dynamically typed languages playing with dynamic types... interesting, but not very safe
06:09:21 <kmc> they didn't so much remove side effects from evaluation as introduce a completely pervasive side effect that doesn't play nice with others
06:11:26 <Sgeo_> Things like Tardises are ... cool, but ... is laziness the sort of side-effect that could be accessed monadically?
06:11:33 <Sgeo_> *exclusively monadically
06:11:40 <Sgeo_> Not sure if that even makes sense, I should be sleeping
06:12:14 <kmc> what's this about tardises
06:12:35 <Sgeo_> http://unknownparallel.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/two-implementations-of-seers/
06:12:47 <Sgeo_> All this stuff relies heavily on laziness
06:13:04 <Sgeo_> And 'time paradox' == nontermination
06:13:57 <Sgeo_> Hmm, not sure what happens if you try to make a paradox of the contradiction kind, instead of the closed loop kind
06:14:46 <Sgeo_> "For example, see >>= send may cause an explosion of information, trapping you in a time loop."
06:14:54 <Sgeo_> http://stackoverflow.com/a/11093315/286648
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07:01:34 <kmc> can confirm that the negation of demorgan's law is not true after all
07:02:23 <shachaf> can you confirm that demorgan's law is true
07:03:04 <kmc> conjecture = (iff (not (and k!0 k!1)) (or (not k!0) (not k!1)))
07:03:04 <kmc> Some(true)
07:04:16 <shachaf> oh, that one doesn't work constructively
07:04:30 <shachaf> not sure if i can believe it :'(
07:05:57 <kmc> constructively ¬a ∨ ¬b → ¬(a ∧ b) but not the other way?
07:07:13 <kmc> makes sense
07:09:54 <shachaf> what do they call the classical thing where (P -> Q) iff (!P || Q)
07:10:11 <shachaf> maybe they call it "definition of ->"
07:10:50 <kmc> @type \d -> \(x,y) -> case d of Left f -> f x; Right g -> g y
07:10:50 <lambdabot> Either (t1 -> t) (t2 -> t) -> (t1, t2) -> t
07:11:19 <kmc> @djinn Either (a -> Void) (b -> Void) -> (a, b) -> Void
07:11:41 <kmc> @djinn ((a, b) -> Void) -> Either (a -> Void) (b -> Void)
07:11:48 <kmc> takes me back
07:11:58 <kmc> shachaf: i think so
07:12:04 <shachaf> remember when you cared about things like that
07:12:12 <kmc> i still care :'(
07:12:27 <shachaf> cared enough to devote significant attention and time to it, i mean
07:13:07 <shachaf> i haven't done it much in a while either
07:13:09 <kmc> i devote attention and time to other things though, so it's all good
07:14:29 <shachaf> i feel like maybe i should go in the direction of more maths rather than less, though
07:14:49 <kmc> i'm writing Rust bindings for Z3
07:15:27 <shachaf> i went to a talk about smt solvers and haskell this month
07:15:42 <kmc> with some kind of macro for quasiquoting Z3 expressions probably
07:15:52 <kmc> how was the talk?
07:15:54 <kmc> not really
07:16:00 <kmc> there will be a 1.0 release this year
07:16:33 <shachaf> by stable i don't mean will my programs continue to run so much as will everything i know become useless/wrong/obsolete
07:16:45 <shachaf> like it did since last summerish when i looked at rust before
07:16:54 <kmc> less so now, I think
07:17:13 <kmc> the deepest & most novel concepts haven't changed in a while, but maybe you already understand those
07:17:40 <kmc> one of the big upcoming changes is that the type system will support dynamically sized types
07:17:55 <kmc> http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2014/01/05/dst-take-5/
07:30:59 <kmc> Z3 is fancy
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10:49:28 <boily> today is the day oots returns!
10:49:32 <boily> and 0.14 is out too!
10:52:06 <int-e> boily: outgrabious!
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11:32:50 <fizzie> "Without access to a lot of source code I can’t tell exactly what is going on, but here’s what I know. If you run the compiler with the /analyze option then it loads mspft120.dll – the /analyze DLL. Then mspft120 loads msxml6.dll to load an XML configuration file. Then msxml6 loads urlmon.dll to open the stream, and finally urlmon loads mshtml.dll. Then mshtml.dll creates a window, ...
11:32:55 <fizzie> ... because that’s what it does."
11:32:58 <fizzie> http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/you-got-your-web-browser-in-my-compiler/
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12:36:49 <ion> http://imgur.com/gallery/ltMAjH1
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16:15:52 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
16:15:57 <fizzie> fungot: Say something appropriate.
16:15:57 <fungot> fizzie: i see. but how were you so arrogant as to assume that is was going. a classic i like, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here, my snuggly green cutie-pie!
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16:16:30 <mroman> fungot: Who's arrogant?
16:16:30 <fungot> mroman: i am, i am, i am the leader and strategic plan in the morning" to you, and the success of my magic, you know that no one leaves. he is still your brother and, apparently, there, about that... the cleric skipped to the part about the oath" story is just that.
16:16:39 <mroman> well... there you have it.
16:16:43 <fungot> mroman: see, the thing that was making this even sporting was your big spectacular compromise that would allow any bandit that defeated
16:16:59 <mroman> no wonder I don't like him.
16:18:14 <mroman> fungot: Are you pronounced fungoat?
16:18:14 <fungot> mroman: a good way, and our little dog, too. cool" monsters may have moved in by answering the riddles" thing, sir, and i see now that it's any of that honey marinade right here, and the illusion that this was the place and have come to aid you in keeping your business.
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16:38:48 <Vorpal> Well... after rebooting I cannot reproduce the graphical issues I had yesterday. Good I guess?
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17:04:32 <kmc> 12:07 < kmc> did you try turning it off and then on again?
17:04:32 <kmc> 12:07 < Vorpal> kmc, very funny
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17:15:45 <mroman> I just discovered something crazy
17:16:06 <mroman> It's beautiful alright
17:17:28 <Vorpal> kmc, I booted windows in between too
17:17:44 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway I'm still worried about the hardware..
17:23:29 <kmc> i once had a monitor that needed to be rebooted to remove graphics corruption
17:24:03 <mroman> I'm gonna upload it as a video :)
17:24:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you see the nonnegative matrix factorization one?
17:24:36 <Vorpal> kmc, it was the GPU though, since I have a multi-head setup and it happened across both monitors
17:24:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw this: http://zem.fi/2014-03-25-tl
17:24:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, thanks to lambdabot
17:25:12 <Vorpal> don't see any matrix there
17:25:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, I've been fiddling with different ways of aggregating the frames, but haven't yet written them up. Here's the NMF one: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140331-nmf.jpg
17:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty, how does it work?
17:26:13 <Vorpal> Looks like time of day / weather
17:27:14 <fizzie> That's kind of how it ends up, though technically it's the four basis vectors of a rank-4 nonnegative factorization of the 33 source images. Or in English, the set of four images that's best (according to some cost function) if you want to represent all 33 images as a weighted sum of some 4 images.
17:28:06 <fizzie> You can see e.g. that the lower-left image has the sun in it, so the lower-right one has gotten a "negasun" that can help when representing an overcast day.
17:28:20 <fizzie> And the top-left image is useful for putting snow on the ground.
17:28:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, the "second view, raw average..." looks kind of other-worldly wrt the plants
17:28:39 <fizzie> Of course that's just late interpretation, the algorithm doesn't care.
17:29:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, with some colour curve enhancing to bring up the saturation it could be really pretty
17:29:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is a negasun?
17:30:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about the top-right?
17:30:10 <Vorpal> in your interpretation
17:30:31 <fizzie> Well, a dark blob where the sun was in the other image. See, when you sum up the bottom row, they annihilate. (And release energy?)
17:30:56 <fizzie> I guess the top-right is just a useful component image for blue skies.
17:32:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did the dark-spot thing happen?
17:32:28 <Vorpal> No, doesn't make sense
17:32:54 <fizzie> It just falls out of the algorithm, when I feed it both sunny days and overcast days; none of the NMF images are really "real".
17:33:46 <fizzie> I did do some histogram equalization on the plain averages to make them less bland, and they looked quite nice; I just didn't upload those yet because it was done in Gimp after clamping to 8 bits per pixel color depth, and there was quite a lot of banding; I'll try to do it "properly" at some point. (I guess non-devel Gimp still hasn't heard of higher color depths?)
17:33:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, looked at the rest of your site, that x86 opcode generator is quite amusing
17:34:25 <fizzie> After a #esoteric suggestion, I made an IUPAC chemical name generator too: http://zem.fi/tmp/iupac.html
17:34:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, according to the generator, a future instruction will be "AI"
17:35:45 <fizzie> The IUPAC generator has an unavoidable (due to the method) habit of generating silly-short names like "5-5" or "6" quite often, but it also does plausible ones.
17:36:00 <fizzie> Well, plausible to a non-chemist, anyway.
17:36:09 <fizzie> I'm sure they mostly make no physical sense at all.
17:36:47 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfn1Waxo5wc&feature=youtu.be
17:38:46 <mroman> Some sort of cellular thingy
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18:03:17 <fizzie> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.22.5" />, yay.
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18:35:53 <mroman> "The city of Seattle just imposed new limits on commercial app-based ride-sharing companies like Uber and Lyft, effectively protecting taxi companies from low-cost competition in the form of smartphone apps."
18:35:59 <mroman> That's certainly interesting.
18:36:41 <mroman> That's actually the first case of banning technology to protect old technology because it would lots of jobs in danger I know
18:37:51 <kmc> really? I feel like that kind of thing is common
18:38:06 <kmc> unions often fight against improved efficiency for this reason
18:38:30 <kmc> also it's not clearly about jobs -- those drivers could work for Uber or Lyft instead
18:38:56 <lexande> new technologies are often used as an opportunity by all sides to try to renegotiate regulations etc
18:38:59 <kmc> I don't know about Seattle but in NYC, taxi medallions are an investment vehicle, worth millions of dollars and usually not owned by the driver or the cab company
18:39:05 <mroman> If they are offered a salary comparable to their current one.
18:39:25 <kmc> so often taxi regulation is about protecting the value of this investment for the people who already hold it
18:39:30 <kmc> \rainbow{PROPERTY RIGHTS}
18:39:32 <lexande> mroman: cab drivers aren't salaried anywhere i've heard of
18:39:58 <mroman> I don't know much about taxis in the US though
18:40:10 <mroman> It's very uncommon in switzerland to use a taxi :)
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18:40:35 <mroman> too expensive and there's public transport
18:40:43 <lexande> well i imagine in switzerland a taxi ride costs about as much as acquiring whatsapp
18:40:55 <lexande> and public transit costs about as much as taxis most places
18:42:23 <mroman> that'd cost me about 38 CHF to get to town :)
18:42:33 <mroman> compared to 12 CHF I'd have to pay for the bus
18:42:36 <lexande> mroman: i would say, for example, that most tariffs and other restrictions on foreign trade are a form of banning/restricting technology in order to protect certain jobs
18:43:04 <mroman> lexande: but it's not directly a ban against technology
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18:43:17 <mroman> it's more of a ban against massive cheap productions
18:43:19 <lexande> well i suspect the seattle thing is not a direct ban either
18:43:43 <lexande> but rather a set of restrictions designed to make it uneconomical
18:44:06 <lexande> (the technology in the trade case being the ever-cheaper ways of shipping things)
18:44:13 <kmc> an app that lets you call cabs from your phone isn't much of a "technology" either
18:44:17 <kmc> it's more of a business model
18:44:47 <mroman> it's usually about how you use technology :)
18:44:51 <kmc> I mean labeling every company that has a website or a phone app as a "technology company" is pretty silly
18:44:54 <kmc> because that's every company now
18:45:00 <kmc> it is common usage, though
18:45:04 <mroman> the internet wasn't really of anyone's privacy concern until facebook showed up :D
18:45:39 <mroman> kmc: 3d printers is the next big thing
18:45:50 <mroman> Depending on how they develop you can produce your own stuff at home
18:46:09 <lexande> mroman: another example i'm familiar with, lightweight trains are illegal in the US for "safety" reasons
18:46:17 <mroman> that'd probably will have a large impact on stuff
18:46:26 <mroman> what's a lightweight train?
18:46:27 <lexande> even though they are used in europe in asia and are empirically safer than trains in the US
18:47:02 <lexande> so trains for use in the US have to be built specifically for the US market, generally at factories in the US
18:47:14 <lexande> rather than just importing whatever from europe or japan
18:47:56 <lexande> there are several reasons for this but protecting US jobs is one of them
18:49:16 <kmc> trains that don't weigh as much as other trains :3
18:49:38 <lexande> conversely i think that a desire to protect european agriculture and associated jobs is a significant (though not the only) reason for european hostility to GMO crops
18:50:28 <mroman> there's a cultural reason too
18:50:38 <lexande> yes there are other reasons too, in all of these cases
18:50:41 <mroman> people are afraid of genetically modified stuff
18:51:08 <mroman> and the christians obviously. They don't like it either
18:51:24 <lexande> "christians" are generally more politically powerful in the US
18:51:25 <fizzie> The Finnish Taxi Owners Federation wrote a press release that they don't see any need for a thing like Uber in Finland, because they already have a couple smartphone apps for ordering a taxi.
18:51:44 <Zom-B> in holland we have this thing called #D Hubs which effectively connects people with 3d printers at home with people that need prints (making competition with companies such as shapeways)
18:51:53 <lexande> fizzie: so if the existing cartel doesn't see a need, we should ban it?
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18:52:13 <lexande> not sure what's so great about 3D printers
18:52:22 <lexande> i can't remember the last time i bought something that could be 3D printed
18:52:45 <lexande> i guess when the palmrest of my laptop broke two years ago?
18:52:53 <mroman> christians here are also powerful
18:52:58 <mroman> just not as crazy as in the us ;)
18:53:01 <fizzie> lexande: Well, at least according to their interpretation (which does sound reasonable) it was already banned here before it even existed, in that it's not compatible with the regulations; I guess they're just saying there's no need to go changing those rules.
18:53:04 <Zom-B> i heard people saay that they dont see the need in programming anything becacuse everything is available already (those were windows people, mind you)'
18:53:14 <Zom-B> 3d printing is the same as programming
18:53:25 <lexande> fizzie: how much do taxis cost in finland?
18:53:36 <lexande> uberx in SF is under $1 per km
18:53:44 <mroman> Zom-B: Are you playing soldat?
18:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit new enemy starfighter trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_U2MdCdaR4
18:54:19 <mroman> If you have to google it that's probably a "no" ;)
18:54:21 <fizzie> lexande: Quite a lot. It's about 40 euros to take a taxi from home to the airport (the only thing we use them for, really), and I think that's something like 15-20 km.
18:54:30 <lexande> Zom-B: i'm not saying that 3D printing is not needed because it provides things i can already get other ways, i'm saying that i don't see how it provides anything i would want ever
18:54:55 <mroman> It just so happened that someone with your nick was on a public server some minutes ago :D
18:55:17 <fizzie> Apparently 1.52 €/km (for 1-2 persons) in addition to the base costs and airport fees and whatnot.
18:55:28 <Zom-B> you make custom things, as opposed to hacking things together with scrap and household tools
18:55:42 <Zom-B> see it like programming instead of chaining and piping linux commands
18:55:46 <lexande> fizzie: hmm that's pretty good
18:55:56 <fizzie> I guess that's about twice the price.
18:55:57 <lexande> Zom-B: but i never hack things together with scrap and household tools
18:56:05 <lexande> what things would i ever make that way?
18:56:39 <Zom-B> maybe not the best example site because they use lots of electronics
18:58:04 <lexande> homebrew electronics projects are sometimes cool, though a lot of them will still basically be useless trinkets
18:58:47 <lexande> but the vast majority of 3D printed things seem to be useless trinkets
18:59:29 <Zom-B> they do, if you go to one of those model sites
18:59:33 <Zom-B> i never look at that crap
18:59:50 <lexande> tell me something i could conceivably 3D print that i actually want
19:00:21 <kmc> lexande: are you arguing against the general utility of 3D printers or just your personal need for one?
19:00:25 <Zom-B> i dont know what you want, so i can name 10 things and you can argue about every one that there is an alternative
19:00:41 <mroman> or... maybe some gunz?
19:00:48 <kmc> I have a cool glow-in-the-dark 3D printed light fixture in my living room
19:00:52 <kmc> it may be a "useless trinket"
19:00:57 <lexande> mroman: one-shot-only guns?
19:01:09 <kmc> you can 3D print an AR-15 lower receiver
19:01:12 <mroman> one shot is the only one you need
19:01:26 <Zom-B> though i agree that most 3d printer owners print 'gadgets' that only exist for coolness
19:01:47 <kmc> anyway lexande this is like when you argued there is no reason for anybody to ever cook at home because you, personally, don't care about food quality or price or variety or convenience
19:01:50 <lexande> kmc: i mean, the technology is cool and there are definitely uses, i just don't think it's particulary "transformative"
19:02:12 <lexande> kmc: and i'm arguing a strong version of that because i'm contrarian
19:02:16 <kmc> I think home 3D printing is in the Altair 8800 stage right now
19:02:20 <kmc> also a useless trinket
19:02:51 <Zom-B> i dont own 3d printer and never really had any ideas about what to print myself
19:02:52 <lexande> (what, i do care about price, that is why i eat 99¢ pizza)
19:03:04 <Zom-B> but i once designed a replacement piece for a tabletop game where a piece was broken so a friend could print it
19:03:33 <lexande> that seems like a good use case
19:03:46 <lexande> and i am glad 3D printers are becoming cheaper and more available for that kind of use case
19:04:35 <Zom-B> then i designed a toothbrush holder, failed a bit with the lid tolerances, but he practically begged it to put the designs online because there were so many requests
19:05:10 <lexande> but to compare them to the altair 8800 is to suggest that in a few decades they will be completely pervasive and everyone will use one on a daily basis and be unable to imagine life without it with many people centering their whole lives around it
19:05:46 <lexande> and i can't imagine this, am i missing something?
19:06:01 <Zom-B> well some people imagine a world where you can print anything non-electronic that you now have to buy
19:06:06 <fizzie> I have a model train enthusiast friend who's printed some spare parts or some-such at the library; that seems like another rather natural use case.
19:06:09 <Zom-B> from travel games to flower vases
19:07:55 <Zom-B> 50 years ago when the only printed paper was offset-pressed, did they think that they needed to do that at home?
19:07:58 <mroman> 3D printing has a high medical-use potential
19:07:58 <fizzie> (Fun fact: a printout from the library 3D printer costs the same amount -- 0.40 eur -- as a copy of a sheet of paper.)
19:08:02 <fizzie> (Though it's this experimental "showcase" / "makerspace" thing-kind-of-a-place, and not, you know, a standard feature in all local libraries.)
19:09:53 <lexande> Zom-B: i mean, i struggle to think of non-electronic non-food things i buy. clothes i guess? is it suggested those would mostly be 3D printed?
19:10:58 <Zom-B> though i saw a 3d printed version irl, that looked like a torture tool
19:11:11 <fizzie> lexande: Guns, of course.
19:11:27 <lexande> i guess i own a comb, and some bowls and such, once-a-decade purchases
19:11:35 <kmc> 3D printing is also transformative in product design and prototyping
19:11:56 <Zom-B> i guess electronics or mechanics isn't any of your hobbies
19:12:11 <Zom-B> cos those people love 3d printed enclosures
19:12:11 <kmc> lexande: "i struggle to think of non-electronic non-food things i buy" <--- exhibit A that you are not most people
19:13:04 <fizzie> People who love 3D-printed enclosures aren't most people either, though.
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19:13:52 <Zom-B> i see on shapeways (which can print much higher quality than a makerbot, and in metal) they have lots of jewelry
19:14:50 <fizzie> Isn't it kind of curious that VR and 3D printing are both the (alleged) Next Big Thing, even though they're kind of opposites?
19:15:36 <fizzie> One takes you to the place where the 3D models live, and the other brings 3D models back to where you live, after all.
19:15:52 <Bicyclidine> both involve giant penis scupltures, though
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19:16:22 <fizzie> Both will be (are?) used for porn, too; there's that.
19:16:50 <kmc> fizzie: right, but I think there are a lot of separate use cases for 3D printing and they might add up to a lot of people (if not most), even if lexande falls outside all of them
19:17:20 <fizzie> mroman: Virtual reality.
19:17:36 <kmc> douglass_ has some textile-working equipment that she designed and I produced on a laser cutter
19:17:36 <mroman> I honestly don't see that coming :)
19:17:55 <fizzie> mroman: A lot of people do, though. (See: Sony, and the Facebook Oculus acquisition.)
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19:18:15 <mroman> I had the honor to look through an oculus
19:18:33 <Zom-B> i was recruited by an oculus-like google designer
19:18:45 <mroman> but they told me the new versions gonna be better :)
19:18:54 <Zom-B> damn finger memory
19:18:55 <fizzie> From what I've heard, it's a lot more immersive with the latest prototypes that do head-tracking.
19:18:56 <kmc> in akihabara I played some kind of game where you used an oculus and a leap motion controller to grope anime girls
19:19:03 <kmc> it's possible that I was playing it wrong
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19:19:46 <Zom-B> lol in japan i also played some 2d immersive game at the uni, with mechas and stuff
19:19:48 <mroman> that's certainly one use case of stuff
19:20:22 <Zom-B> mroman: that picelishness comes from low resolution phones
19:20:30 <Zom-B> try again with the new 2560x1440 phone
19:21:33 <Zom-B> kmc: where are you from?
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19:25:08 <HackEgo> olist 947: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily
19:25:27 <Zom-B> http://www.cnet.com/news/oppo-debuts-worlds-first-5-5-inch-quad-hd-find-7/
19:25:54 <Bicyclidine> looking forward to playing all my old Virtual Boy games again
19:25:56 <fizzie> VR headsets aren't made out of phones.
19:26:14 <fizzie> Same kind of display panels, sure, but that doesn't make them phones.
19:26:45 <int-e> what is the freaking point of going about 200, perhaps 300 dpi?
19:27:03 <Zom-B> i thought you talked about oculus rift and stuff
19:27:54 <fizzie> int-e: Probably quite a lot for a display right in front of your eye, to be honest.
19:28:06 <int-e> I swear they are doing this so that the phone batteries deplete within 3 days even though the capacity increases all the time.
19:28:15 <fizzie> (For a phone, I don't have any idea.)
19:28:22 <lexande> int-e: 3 days? mine barely lasts one
19:28:24 <fizzie> (Except being able to quote bigger numbers.)
19:28:36 <Zom-B> my phone is 440dpi
19:29:04 <int-e> err, I meant s/about/above/ up there, odd typo.
19:29:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I forgot to `olist.
19:29:39 <int-e> is there a point to `olist?
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19:30:29 <int-e> lexande: I have a stupid nokia phone which lasts a week (batteries are getting old) ;)
19:31:43 <Zom-B> both my old and new phone (google mytouch and google nexus 5) last about 5 days of average use and wifi connected 100% of the time
19:31:58 <lexande> if only i could 3D print a new phone battery
19:32:15 <Zom-B> lipo batteries can be inkjet-printed
19:32:45 <lexande> my nexus 4 barely lasts a day, wifi off and brightness set to automatic
19:32:56 <Zom-B> but very low capcity, more useful for calculators in terms of power usage (like those that use these little solar panels)
19:33:24 <Zom-B> never tried nexus 4
19:33:35 <Zom-B> i lasted 6 years on a single phone
19:33:37 <lexande> i wish phones weren't so big
19:33:50 <lexande> i miss my nexus s, i can't reach the far corner of my nexus 4
19:34:17 <int-e> I wish phones were still phones
19:34:46 <lexande> nah that was always the worst feature of phones
19:37:27 <password2> and pring a new cover for your phone
19:39:24 <Zom-B> my current usage, first 2 hours screen on, then stand-by: https://www.dropbox.com/s/50dy62ztt6aq6c2/Screenshot_2014-03-31-21-36-18.png
19:40:52 <Zom-B> uhm not screen on, i was driving to work*
19:47:13 <password2> great , linux does not like to copy small files , 1hr for 7.8gig hdd to hdd
19:47:32 <Zom-B> small files are never funny
19:48:07 <Zom-B> it needs to copy all the user prililedges too and that is a slow operation for the kernel (it does authoring an stuff for each file)
19:49:05 <Zom-B> the only FS that like small files are non-journalled and have no permissions, like fat32
19:49:07 <password2> i should probably have ripped out some obfuscated one liner in terminal that both zips copy and extracts the data
19:49:25 <Zom-B> that would be even slower
19:50:14 <Zom-B> its faster to make a truecrypt container and keep small files there. just copy the container
19:50:34 <Zom-B> not as an intermediate step but permanently keep them there
19:50:54 <Zom-B> that is, if they are not needed all the time
19:50:55 <password2> doubt windows would play nice with em
19:53:00 <Zom-B> i found a 4 year old project of an esoteric functional language, but its unfinished, full of errors, and no documentation/commenting whatsoever
19:53:28 <Zom-B> how many mAh is that?
19:53:33 <password2> http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/electric-double-layer-capacitors/7690221/
19:55:18 <password2> bout 1080maH , if you assume V = 0.5*.7
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19:56:24 <Zom-B> found better formula: *0.2777, so 111mAh/V
19:56:45 <Zom-B> the more volts you put in it, the more MaH it becomes (obvious)
19:57:55 <Zom-B> 300mAh for 2.7V in half the size of an AA, not very high capacity
19:58:41 <password2> the newer graphene based ultra caps are approaching litium batteries
19:58:50 <Zom-B> better harvest some of those button-sized bios batteries from old laptops
19:59:39 <password2> well , if you use a button cell in parallel with this cap , it would be fun
20:00:10 <password2> you would be able to trigger large devices with a small cell
20:00:16 <Zom-B> so button can recharge cap and cap can provide high transient load?
20:00:47 <password2> mmm , i wonder how long a ram module can run from such a cap
20:00:59 <Zom-B> i recommend a resistor in between (or low-dropout constant current driver if you're feeliong hackery)
20:01:21 <password2> i recommend having a ultracap first
20:01:41 <Zom-B> i recommend collecting moneyz first
20:03:25 <password2> mmm , if you use a 10mA Led , you can power that led for entire night
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20:03:55 <password2> much longer if you use a joule thief
20:04:01 <Zom-B> ah found the doc of that functional esoland
20:04:22 <Zom-B> joule thief is suxors, tried it once
20:04:43 <Zom-B> tried another one i found on a dutch forum that works 10x better
20:04:45 <password2> their just low poer boost converters
20:04:50 <Zom-B> and no need to wind your own coil
20:05:15 <password2> old motherboards have lovly ferrite cores
20:06:04 <password2> i need to finish my bick converter
20:06:05 <Zom-B> i tried a led once on a fully charged 1F supercap, lasted like 5 minutes
20:06:17 <password2> so that i can start with revision 3
20:06:27 <Zom-B> no regulator, just parallel
20:06:52 <password2> i have 11mF cap array that lasts 2 minutes with an led
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20:07:05 <Zom-B> starts off with high load ofcourse, and as soon as voltage drops below 3.5V the led dims
20:07:47 <Zom-B> i could try it on my lasers
20:07:56 <Zom-B> they have a current driver by definition
20:08:06 <Zom-B> unless it's chinese dealextreme crap
20:08:34 <password2> i want to buy some laser modules for a FSO project
20:09:46 <Zom-B> http://pastebin.com/pcfLQmqr and it's called amorphicum, not without reason
20:10:12 <Zom-B> tomorrow i'm gonna read it in detail, now it's too late, imma go
20:11:05 <Zom-B> mind that this is a scrap document and not some final language definition
20:11:46 <Zom-B> my favotite line: "Code will be well understandable for the programmer but not for the uninitiated."
20:12:00 <password2> then i have to copy everything again
20:12:29 <Zom-B> i saw your BF^ the other day, the additions are useful
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20:15:03 <password2> i was considering releasing the code in library form
20:15:33 <password2> but I have quite few program projects running already
20:20:39 <Zom-B> made redirect http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF^ because i couldn't find it
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20:23:27 <elliott> fizzie: do you have a fancy mediawiki update workflow? :p
20:23:46 <fizzie> elliott: I made up one, it's not very fancy.
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20:24:35 <elliott> how much git does it involve??
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20:30:32 <fizzie> Well, it's got the extensions from cloned official gits, and modified configuration files (just LocalSettings.php) from a local git, but the MediaWiki files from a release tarball.
20:31:56 <fizzie> I did use a "git archive | tar" kind of thing to copy the extensions in their right places, which makes it very fancy.
20:31:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, major version 1.21 or something had moved the Vector extension to core, apparently.
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20:41:49 <elliott> I tried to have my own branch that I merged the wmf release branches into
20:41:58 <elliott> with LocalSettings.php and submodules for extensions
20:42:05 <elliott> (you have to update extensions with new versions, btw, at least major ones)
20:42:18 <elliott> -- but it turns out that if you have the wmf branch for 1.19 you can't just merge the 1.20 one in, say
20:42:27 <elliott> because it has stuff that's 1.19-specific in the branch, I guess
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20:48:50 <fizzie> Yes, I have in the Workflow Document a command for checking out a new RELn_nn branches of the extensions, to be used if a major version changes; otherwise it just pulls. AIUI, those are the ones suited for use with release tarballs. (I guess I could equally well have the MediaWiki files from git, too. But "w/e".)
20:50:19 <elliott> rip http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/upgrading
20:50:55 <elliott> fizzie: the wmf branches get updated beyond just the releases
20:51:35 <elliott> at least, they did when I actually updated mediawiki :P
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21:05:01 <fizzie> That's the kind of feeling I got, but I couldn't be bothered to figure out what it all means.
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22:13:14 <Bicyclidine> http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00146/abstract l m a o
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22:33:17 <elliott> Bicyclidine: that reminds me of retropsychokinesis
22:37:05 <Sgeo> "With Shelfies (Shareable Selfies) you can set your own photo as a Gmail custom theme and share it with your friends so they can enjoy looking at you as much as you do."
22:37:51 <Sgeo> Gmail popped that message up at me
22:38:17 <myname> http://www.euirc.net/en/news_detail.php?newsid=197
22:39:07 <shachaf> you should use the top trending shelfies
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22:47:48 <Bicyclidine> http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/article/view/591 this looks good
22:56:12 <zzo38> The Fairchild F8 bus is a but unusual, lacking any address lines, but having eight data lines and five control lines.
22:58:07 <zzo38> (Each device on the bus has to keep its own copy of the address.)
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23:21:57 <doesthiswork> someone started on a roguelike featuring programmable magic
23:22:51 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Also an idea I have been thinking about, but never implemented (or figured out how to implement).
23:23:53 <doesthiswork> but it doesn't go far enough until we have spells that write spells
23:25:24 <doesthiswork> zzo38 what would you want from a game with programmable magic?
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23:25:46 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, that too I would expect, spells that write spells... perhaps some kind of design in Haskell?
23:29:28 <doesthiswork> The problem I always run into is that if the spell language is pleasent enough that we can get things done in it and flexible enough that it can do anything, players will just use it to set enimies hitpoints to 0
23:32:17 <doesthiswork> but perhaps if we make it so it can't effect things without haveing a reference to them we could make it so the spell would need both the unique name of the enimy and the unique name of their hitpoints to effect
23:39:33 <zzo38> Actually I did have some ideas relating to that: They wouldn't have such direct effects anyways.
23:45:23 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember thinking what i wanted from a programmable magic system was something where you're trying to write a control system for ~mystic energies~ rather than just, like, writing scripts for the universe to run
23:46:48 <doesthiswork> what would a control system for mystic energies look like?
23:51:06 <Phantom__Hoover> doesthiswork, well your main aim would be to avoid blowing your face off, i guess
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23:54:02 <doesthiswork> it would be cool if I could just define a small core and all the magical effects would be logical consiquences of it
23:55:19 <doesthiswork> have you ever played codex of alchemical engineering?
23:56:32 <doesthiswork> http://www.zachtronics.com/alchemy/alchemy.htm
23:57:32 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: That "mystic energies" idea is closer to the ideas I had, actually
23:59:15 <doesthiswork> wouls mystic energies have thier own wills and intentions?