←2014-04-15 2014-04-16 2014-04-17→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:32:57 * Taneb -> bed
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00:56:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39336&oldid=39313 * Oerjan * (+1) Let's compromise on the spelling
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01:01:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39337&oldid=39318 * Oerjan * (+13) I think a TOC is appropriate for this article even with just 3 sections
01:01:30 <myname> Axthetic
01:03:42 <myname> also: what the hell is Ax
01:06:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Keya]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39338&oldid=39321 * Oerjan * (+15) wikitable and some rephrasing for grammar/consistency
01:06:16 <oerjan> i dunno it was just added
01:06:29 <myname> i don't understand that article
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01:07:35 <oerjan> i didn't particularly try to read it
01:07:41 <myname> okay
01:07:43 <myname> don't
01:19:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SSBPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39339&oldid=31003 * Oerjan * (+48) wikitable, add spaces to avoid accidental table markup, consistent capitalization
01:21:14 <Sgeo> I hope my defense of lens in concatenative was adequate/sane
01:21:34 <Sgeo> http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/concatenative/14.04.15
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01:23:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39340&oldid=39333 * Oerjan * (+67) Add [[User:EzoLang]]'s list of languages
01:23:28 <elliott> don't argue with evincar
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02:36:23 <LucienG> p/
02:36:33 <LucienG> (lpghatguy)
02:36:46 <Bike> Okay
02:39:06 <Jafet> Hmm, the numbers here seem wrong http://primes.utm.edu/mersenne/LukeMirror/lit/lit_039s.htm
02:40:40 <Jafet> (Table 1 supposedly shows the values of (3^(2^(2^n-1)) mod (2^(2^n)+1)) mod 2^36, 2^36-1, 2^35-1 for several n.)
02:48:30 <JesseH2> Sup LucienG
03:04:32 <kmc> `coins
03:04:34 <HackEgo> audacoin easyendocoin sardinalcoin bacacoin soundedintercoin gooilcoin crtlasscoin codentaurehecoin iotcoin addlecocoin forceiccoin factcoin datedcoin paracoin ringthesquecoin ungecoin heitkeecoin daturncoin varocoin comcoin
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03:50:11 <Bike> https://www.mashape.com/nsure-io/porn-filter#!endpoint-porn this is the best startup ever
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04:18:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39341&oldid=39335 * Zerk * (+391) Ints should not pattern-match as vectors. (So *that*'s why I had it that way initially!)
04:51:51 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/234iem/bitundo_allowing_you_to_undo_bitcoin_transactions/
04:58:21 <Jafet> Nice
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05:43:46 <newsham> so some people are signing up to a mining pool with the purpose of destroying transactions?
05:46:32 <copumpkin> damn right
05:47:08 <newsham> i guess btc has hit the big time
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06:02:57 <Sgeo> Is monad-peel obsolete?
06:03:03 <Sgeo> I should learn how those sorts of things work
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08:20:15 <shachaf> hi Taneb
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08:27:55 <Taneb> Hi shachaf
08:28:58 <shachaf> i was just looking through old files and i found this line: "Oh, well *all* know that; / But it's undeniable Tom has the better hat."
08:29:02 <shachaf> good times
08:41:05 <Taneb> Indeed/
08:41:11 <Taneb> Anyway, I have a movie to see
08:41:13 <Taneb> Bye!
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09:40:40 <b_jonas> do you have an implementation for maintaining some kind of balanced search tree in a database using triggers, where the search tree lets you search among rows of a particular table according to a key column?
09:41:47 <fizzie> Is this the setup of a "database in your database" joke?
09:43:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: sort of... but not quite
09:44:41 <b_jonas> database in database is different, that'd be when you store the raw representation of database not in a few files on the filesystem but instead in a few blobs in another database.
09:45:22 <b_jonas> if there's an implementation of such a search tree already, I'd like to look at it
09:45:51 <b_jonas> if there isn't, then I'll think of whether it's possible to implement it, probably using a treap, and maybe even try an implementation
09:47:27 <Jafet> If it is made out of relations, are you allowed to call it a family tree?
09:47:45 <fizzie> I tried to figure out an X-in-your-X format thing referring to putting a handcrafted index into a database system (presumably) supporting indices, but couldn't.
09:48:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: the database would have to support some form of indexes for this to work in first place,
09:48:50 <b_jonas> but this way you could implement more powerful indexes and indexed queries than what the database supports
09:49:01 <b_jonas> (also much slower).
09:49:21 <fizzie> It sounds the kind of thing you'd find zzo38 doing in SQLite.
09:50:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: I should ask zzo38 then? ok
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11:01:32 <ion> mona 250b intro for Atari 8-bit http://youtu.be/0NHaFS9YJBE
11:35:18 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/234iem/bitundo_allowing_you_to_undo_bitcoin_transactions/cgtoivc bitcoiners ignorant of game theory, tragedy of commons; news at 11
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11:45:15 <b_jonas> now that I've heared of cobol PICTURE codes, I wonder if our galactic sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha was named of one
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12:11:13 <myname> so i went to a prof today asking for a bachelor thesis i could make
12:11:27 <myname> mentioned i like esoteric languages
12:11:45 <myname> i could make a compiler as a thesis project
12:12:46 <myname> what language could i choose? also: would my own language (wolfgang) be possible without that much work?
12:13:37 <Jafet> bffc could use some optimizations
12:14:01 <myname> come on, be serious
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13:40:38 <quintopia> what is bffc
13:41:55 <quintopia> wolfgang looks immineNtly compilable
13:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> why the fuck was the 'previously closed tabs' thing removed from chrome
13:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> it was so useful
13:44:52 <quintopia> ah that's why i've been unable to undo tab closure hmm
13:45:04 <quintopia> yeah i agree chrome just isn't as awesome as it used to be
13:57:49 * oerjan thinks Phantom_Hoover could possibly approve of today's xkcd.
13:58:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it's true
13:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> although ksp isn't that representative of real-world orbital mechanics
14:01:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's in history now I think
14:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't see anything there...
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14:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, it's under The Menu now
14:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i still can't get over them wasting half the new tab page on a completely redundant google search box
14:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i swear they used to be good at ui design
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14:16:37 <Bike> "Right, but miners wouldn't want transaction reversal to become a problem for the network because it would destroy the value of Bitcoin (and thus their ASICs)." amazing
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14:18:30 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1308.5164 this has a certain charm :3
14:18:53 <Bike> plus it's even by a hungarian
14:54:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Eodermdrome]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39342&oldid=35357 * GreyKnight * (+399) /* multiple matches */ new section
14:55:41 <elliott> uh oh
14:55:46 <elliott> looks like someone is trying to implement eodermdrome.
14:57:50 <oerjan> scary stuff
14:58:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Eodermdrome]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39343&oldid=39342 * Phantom Hoover * (+177) /* multiple matches */
15:02:24 <myname> oerjan: suggest a language i could write a compiler for, which is not awfully hard!
15:02:44 <oerjan> well now that eodermdrome is taken...
15:03:31 <myname> :D
15:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> we don't know he's making a compiler!
15:03:57 <oerjan> true
15:04:07 <oerjan> (in fact i haven't even looked at the page)
15:04:39 <myname> eodermdrome looks pretty hard at first sight. that may be because i didn't fully understand it
15:05:07 <oerjan> it's a timey-wimey graph of ...stuff.
15:05:12 <oerjan> or was that feather.
15:06:06 <myname> i don't think that claiming i will write a feather compiler does not work as bachelor thesis
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15:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, eodermdrome's main problem, afaiu, is efficiently implementing the subgraph match algorithm
15:25:23 <int-e> myname: if you invent time travel and all you get for it is a bachelor thesis then you've done something wrong ;)
15:25:31 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: true
15:25:47 <myname> int-e: i'd rather implement twoducks, then
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15:43:05 <quintopia> how long has bf been the featured language now? it seems like ages
15:43:10 <quintopia> i wish it changed monthly
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15:54:07 <fizzie> You can make it change by making sure there is a good article about a language, and then suggesting it as featured.
15:54:14 <fizzie> Or that's my understanding, anyway.
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16:50:24 <Phantom_Hoover> <myname> int-e: i'd rather implement twoducks, then
16:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> you could totally implement twoducks by backtracking
16:51:27 <myname> how do i make that programm that prints the sum of two numbers before it asks for them
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17:05:38 <tromp_> printf("4\nPlease enter 2 and 2:\n");
17:07:55 <myname> yeah, no
17:10:18 <Bike> if you're doing it as a thesis, shouldn't it be awfully hard
17:10:44 <myname> not for a bachelor
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18:06:52 <quintopia> myname: have it print a random number. then, ask for input. if the numbers don't add up to the output number, destroy the universe. if the multiverse theory is true, anyone who observes the functioning of your program (which correspond to those living in universes that picked the right numbers) will see that it functions correctly.
18:07:20 <myname> interesting idea
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18:07:36 <quintopia> (It is probably mroally required here to remind users that entering values which do not sum to the printed value will result in their immediate nonexistence. This will have the beneficial side effect of increasing the number of universes in which the program succeeds.)
18:08:20 <myname> but more people will questioning if it really works
18:09:13 <quintopia> well, they are more than welcome to test it if they don't mind having the blood of who knows how many entire species on their hands!
18:09:52 <myname> which may result in even less universes in which the program succeeds
18:10:01 <Bike> it's going to be awkward if your prng isn't actually based on wavefunction collapse to any great extent and you destroy everything
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18:10:43 <quintopia> yes it is critical that you use a real RNG. sample the CMBR or something
18:13:32 <Bike> that collapses a wavefunction?
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18:29:31 <quintopia> the idea of waveform collapse is kind of antithetical to many-worlds
18:30:02 <quintopia> anything that differentiates one universe from another will do
18:31:37 <Bike> I thought the idea was that wavefunction collapse was actually the observer wavefunction being entangled (entrained?) with the observed wavefunction, so that probability amplitudes outside a particular basis are no longer observed
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18:32:27 <quintopia> yeah that's pretty much it. but that's not really a "collapse" of the wavefunction. More of a refactoring.
18:32:38 <Bike> i just mean something that looks like a collapse.
18:32:44 <quintopia> ah
18:32:54 <Bike> there't nothing terribly quantum if i get a RNG by sampling microweather or whatever
18:34:02 <Slereah_> Well technically there is
18:34:10 <Slereah_> Since all matter is quantum
18:34:14 <Bike> yes, yes
18:34:14 <quintopia> the CMBR reflects the interactions of the matter of the universe at the timescale of yoctoseconds after the big bang or something like that. it should have plenty of distinguishing power between universes
18:34:25 <Slereah_> Whaaat
18:34:29 <Bike> Isn't that too far back though
18:34:36 <Slereah_> The CMB is from like 300.000 years after the big bang
18:34:41 <Bike> I mean you want to keep universes that are mostly like this one
18:34:55 <quintopia> Slereah_: oh. damn. may not be useful then.
18:35:01 <Bike> If the only remaining universes after your twoducks program are ones where triple alpha never happened to happen or something you'd have a problem!
18:35:05 <Bike> well, you wouldn't, since you wouldn't exist
18:35:33 <Slereah_> Two Duck probably wouldn't work with a physical implementation
18:35:40 <Bike> it's pretty sad to know if anyone who actually knew quantum physics was here they'd be shuddering at me
18:35:43 <quintopia> Bike: well, what your observation of the CMBR would really differentiate between is microweather state like you said, but also the time at which you chose to make the observation.
18:35:44 <Slereah_> But that depends on how you implement time travel
18:35:50 <Slereah_> I know QM!
18:36:45 <Slereah_> The best thing about time travel is that it makes general relativity non-deterministic technically
18:36:47 <quintopia> Slereah_: suggest a random number mechanism that would distinguish between similar universes
18:37:40 <Slereah_> I don't know that much about MWI
18:37:45 <Bike> quintopia: https://photonics.anu.edu.au/qoptics/Research/qrng.php
18:37:48 <Slereah_> But since it is deterministic, I guess none
18:38:22 <quintopia> ...good point.
18:38:30 <Bike> "Suggest a RNG that would make it look like we're distinguishing between similar universes to an entangled observer"
18:38:45 <Bike> actually, that kind of fucks up the whole 'destroy the universe' joke, doesn't it, since you don't really have multiple universes per se
18:39:09 <quintopia> well better to make it physically accurate than funny :)
18:39:15 <Slereah_> a thing to remember is that quantum interpretations are not actually physics
18:39:19 <Slereah_> They are metaphysics
18:39:26 <Bike> http://qrng.anu.edu.au/ i like how there's actually several of these
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18:39:51 <Slereah_> Also "random" can also depend on metaphysical points
18:40:28 <Bike> i tried reading everett's thesis once but it turns out ui don't know any physics
18:40:41 <quintopia> random is not the important thing. the important thing is that it be something that is different in universes where different people are likely to pick different numbers.
18:41:10 <quintopia> not the same across all universes that contain people
18:41:11 <Slereah_> Well between two different universe there will be at least one quantum measurement differing
18:41:12 <Slereah_> I think
18:41:39 <Bike> wait so is mwi based on there being "actual" multiple universes or not.
18:41:47 <Slereah_> Define "actual"
18:41:56 <quintopia> there is not "one" monolithic mwi
18:42:37 <Slereah_> The point is that quantum theory, due to various experiments, has found out that the theory cannot be, at the same time, local, deterministic and unique
18:42:46 <Bike> i'm trying to base my understanding on everett since it seems unlikely he said something dumb, unlike "what the bleep do we know" and suchlike
18:43:39 <Slereah_> ie it can't respect relativity in every aspect (not allowing instantaneous action at a distance), have the same results for the same events and be in one universe
18:43:49 <Bike> i guess it's like, is mwi is based on there being one universal wavefunction, and what we observe as wavefunction collapse is locking ourselves (as subfunctions) into a particular basis wrt the observed
18:43:53 <Slereah_> Copenhagen isn't deterministic, Bohm isn't local and MWI isn't unique
18:44:01 <Slereah_> And there's a bunch of others that break one of these
18:44:06 <Bike> but all the "other universes" are just parts of the wavefunction in different bases
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19:24:16 <b_jonas> wow, this channel has discussions on strange topics
19:25:12 <Slereah_> Hell I could talk about time travel physics for hours <3
19:25:47 <Slereah_> I should try implementing an interpreter for a twoduck-like someday
19:25:56 <Slereah_> Like a quantum computer that allows closed timelike curves
19:25:58 <kmc> few things are more esoteric than quantum mechanics
19:26:11 <Slereah_> But damn it's not gonna be easy
19:26:28 <b_jonas> myname: BSc thesis in what science? and you want a compiler from or to an esoteric language?
19:26:47 <Slereah_> I guess you'd basically have to run the program over his entire timeline
19:26:48 <Slereah_> Hm
19:27:00 <Slereah_> Maybe there's a way to do it for all programs, but like
19:27:13 <Slereah_> Doing it for a machines where the halting problem is decidable
19:27:24 <Slereah_> Like a Two Duck automaton
19:27:48 <myname> b_jonas: computer science
19:28:02 <myname> b_jonas: from would be more useful, i assue
19:28:05 <myname> *
19:28:06 <myname> *m
19:28:19 <b_jonas> I see
19:29:23 <b_jonas> I remember someone wrote a compiler for K (the APL-like language) as his PhD thesis. That's of course impossible, because you can write stuff in K that's so dynamic that there's no chance to determine anything in advance,
19:29:38 <myname> K is a pun on J?
19:29:55 <Slereah_> K?
19:30:02 <b_jonas> but he wrote a compiler that tries to figure out as much as possible about the data types and other invariants, and compile what it could.
19:30:26 <b_jonas> myname: probably. or maybe APLers just like brevity and so they choose single-letter names
19:30:33 <Slereah_> What is K
19:30:34 <myname> b_jonas: i am aiming a bit lower than that
19:30:43 <b_jonas> Slereah_: it's a semi-successful APL-like language of whose derivative Q is used in business
19:30:49 <b_jonas> I'm not sure which of K or Q this guy compiled
19:31:06 <myname> i neither knew K nor Q but J
19:31:22 <Slereah_> What about C
19:31:24 <b_jonas> Slereah_: it's an APL-like that tries to be efficient so it like doesn't check overflow and doesn't upgrade values to larger types when they overflow, etc
19:31:50 <Slereah_> Then why use an APL like and not C
19:31:50 <b_jonas> has lambdas, has a smaller set of primitives than C, fewer higher order functions,
19:31:54 <b_jonas> s/C/J/ sorry
19:32:02 <b_jonas> and stuff
19:32:30 <Slereah_> So anyway
19:32:32 <Slereah_> Thinking 'bout it
19:32:43 <Slereah_> I think doing a two-duck like should be doable to implement
19:32:47 <Slereah_> For a machine that always halts
19:32:51 <b_jonas> also it semantically has only rank 1 inhomogenous array, though homogenous and higher rank arrays are stored in an optimized fashion.
19:33:06 <Slereah_> Using the Novikov principle, to avoid weird time travel stuff
19:33:17 <Slereah_> You calculate the entire program in advance
19:33:30 <Slereah_> And then output each time slice sequentially
19:34:21 <myname> Slereah_: that still won't do with IO
19:34:45 <Slereah_> Well you don't need IO
19:34:48 <Slereah_> Or just use output
19:34:53 <Bike> http://www.theallium.com/science-life/scientists-reportedly-close-to-finding-a-use-for-linkedin/
19:35:00 <b_jonas> what's two-duck?
19:35:03 <myname> what fun is that
19:35:19 <Slereah_> Well I don't think I can write an interpreter to communicate with the past unfortunately
19:35:27 <myname> b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TwoDucks
19:35:28 <Slereah_> Two-Duck is a time travel based esoland
19:35:36 <Slereah_> If you get the pun congrats
19:35:53 <myname> i don't
19:36:25 <Slereah_> It is
19:36:29 <Slereah_> TIME PAIR OF DUCKS
19:36:34 <myname> what
19:37:04 <myname> that sounds invader zimish
19:37:19 <Slereah_> (paradox)
19:38:23 <b_jonas> I See
19:39:37 <Slereah_> With a quantum computer kind of thing it should be mostly paradox free
19:40:17 <b_jonas> no way. two duck is much more powerful than a quantum computer.
19:40:44 <Slereah_> Well that's because it allows timeline alterations
19:41:06 <b_jonas> duh
19:41:07 <Slereah_> But if you go the David Deutsch way, it only allows for consistent timelines
19:41:17 <b_jonas> without tiem travel it would be just an ordinary language
19:41:29 <Slereah_> And the quantum states sent along closed timelike curves become mixed
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20:00:41 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my time paradox
20:01:50 <Slereah_> kmc : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVL1crIccRI
20:02:38 <myname> so, no specific language idea for me?
20:03:26 <Slereah_> What are you looking for
20:03:57 <myname> something to write a compiler for with a fair amount of work
20:04:45 <Slereah_> Well I'm just gonna pimp my own language I guess : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
20:04:46 <Slereah_> :D
20:04:57 <Slereah_> And I was too lazy to implement that one
20:05:39 <myname> i thought about my own language as well, but i am quite unsure how hard it would be
20:06:29 <Slereah_> Also define "a fair amount of work"
20:06:54 <myname> well, i want to make it a bachelor thesis
20:08:22 <Slereah_> Any particular preference?
20:08:32 <Slereah_> Like functional or procedural or whatevs
20:09:02 <myname> i do think procedural are a lot easier to compile (at least if i want to compile to c or assembly)
20:09:12 <Slereah_> It tends to be yeah
20:09:25 <Slereah_> Cellular automatons also aren't too hard
20:09:44 <myname> like which language?
20:09:58 <Slereah_> Game of life
20:10:07 <Slereah_> The electronic-based one, I forget which
20:10:13 <Slereah_> The rule 110 automaton!
20:10:21 <Bike> electronic-based? you mean von neumann's?
20:10:23 <Slereah_> The ant-based one
20:10:25 <Slereah_> Maybe?
20:10:31 <myname> conway's
20:10:33 <quintopia> wireworld
20:10:38 <Slereah_> Yeah, wireworld
20:10:39 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VonNeumann_CA_demo.gif
20:10:41 <Bike> Pulsin'
20:11:18 <myname> bullying automatons are fun, too
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20:12:21 <Slereah_> Bullying isn't cool myname
20:12:24 <myname> but they may be really hard to compile
20:13:09 <myname> Slereah_: i don't get what's special about limp
20:13:15 <myname> except its name
20:13:17 <Slereah_> Nothing
20:13:21 <Slereah_> But it is miiiine~
20:13:34 <myname> it looks funny
20:13:35 <Slereah_> Basically I just mashed a lot of the functional languages together
20:13:58 <Slereah_> Also a lot of the greek letter based one
20:14:00 <Slereah_> Hence the name
20:18:18 <Slereah_> What about pi calculus?
20:18:19 <Slereah_> Like
20:18:25 <Slereah_> Implement it with actual parallelism
20:18:31 <Slereah_> That might be hard
20:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <Slereah_> The ant-based one
20:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> langton's ant?
20:19:07 <Slereah_> yep
20:19:24 <Slereah_> Like make a pi calculus language for some quadcore processor
20:19:48 <b_jonas> what the heck is pi calculus?
20:20:05 <Slereah_> Pi calculus is the abstraction of parallel computing
20:21:18 <Bike> imo digamma calculus
20:44:49 <kmc> i read (part of) djb's paper "Understanding brute force" last night
20:45:20 <kmc> it's about how a parallel computer can do brute force key search at a much better price:performance ratio than a serial computer
20:45:30 <kmc> and complaining that cryptographers often ignore this fact
20:46:05 <kmc> this is true even in a theoretical model which lacks some of the engineering factors that make parallel computers better in the real world
20:47:01 <kmc> I think a lot of it comes down to, if you have a huge amount of memory then you should have a proportional amount of cores, otherwise you are not using the memory very efficiently
20:47:45 <Slereah_> Memory is dirth cheap today though
20:47:50 <Slereah_> Disproportionately to CPUs
20:48:45 <olsner> it is also slow
20:49:01 <Slereah_> Also shitty BUSs
20:49:21 <Slereah_> Hey do you remember that episode of the Magic School Bus on computers?
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20:49:26 <Slereah_> The bus was driving on the BUS!
20:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover> no
20:49:58 <kmc> Slereah_: general purpose CPU cores are complicated and expensive, but a circuit that just does AES and talks to some local memory is tiny and you can fabricate a lot of them on a single wafer
20:50:09 <kmc> and in this machine they're only connected to their neighbors
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20:50:17 <kmc> and the interconnect doesn't need to be super fast
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20:50:51 <olsner> imagine if you had one small cpu per 64k (or so) of your 4-8GB ram, that's ~half a shitload of cpus
20:51:06 <Bike> bet it could play crysis though
20:51:09 <kmc> if you're in the realm where a brute force attack on AES is remotely plausible then you're talking about spending billions of dollars on fully custom hardware
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20:52:52 <Bike> that reminds me, anybody got any good examples for this http://mnxmnkmnd.tumblr.com/post/82876163079/dead-theories
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20:55:36 <fizzie> "one small cpu" that's starting to sound like the GA144.
20:56:22 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't have quite that many CPUs, and they're p. small.
20:57:17 <Bike> ooh, is this a flow computer
20:58:17 <Slereah_> Bike : Platonic physics!
20:58:21 <Slereah_> It is way wrong
20:58:29 <Slereah_> But that was the pre-experimental era of physics
20:58:29 <Bike> i don't know any.
20:58:35 <Bike> i know some about aristotle's.
20:58:43 <Slereah_> Oh yeah, Aristotle
20:58:57 <Bike> with the whole, what was it, things keep moving because of wind
20:59:01 <Slereah_> I can't think of too many theories that are way wrong?
20:59:01 <fizzie> "Oh yeah, Aristotle" makes it sound like you knew him personally.
20:59:15 <Slereah_> I mean there's some charmingly old timey ones
20:59:19 <Slereah_> Like ring-shaped electrons
20:59:40 <Bike> and yeah, i was trying to exclude classical science, because it's mostly just old guys making things up
20:59:53 <Bike> as opposed to real science, which is old guys making stuff up but having to convince other old guys of it for money
20:59:56 <nortti> why is he called "Aristotle" in english when his name was Ἀριστοτέλης?
20:59:58 <oerjan> aristotle aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
21:00:09 <Slereah_> Harris Turtle
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21:00:17 <Bike> nortti: probably warping through persian intermediates
21:00:26 <Bike> or just europeans being bad at languages as per usual
21:00:35 <nortti> very possible
21:00:56 <nortti> interesting that finnish uses pretty-direct transliteration "Aristoteles"
21:00:57 <Bike> Slereah_: i think part of it is like i said, it hasn't happened so much in physics.
21:00:58 <kmc> oerjan++
21:00:58 <Slereah_> nortti : why is Ἄνουβις in greek when his egyptian name is inpw
21:01:18 <kmc> it used to be more of a thing that you would translate names for a different language
21:01:18 <Bike> at least not that i know of. i ain't a physicist. hell yea
21:01:21 <Slereah_> I mean there's plenty of wrong theories in physics, certainly
21:01:30 <Slereah_> but for the most part, they weren't like
21:01:30 <kmc> and some of the names we use today are based on n steps of translation, I guess
21:01:35 <Slereah_> Experimentally very wrong
21:01:37 <kmc> like if you were a scientist you had to have a latin name
21:01:46 <Bike> my favorite warped name is avicenna
21:02:10 <Slereah_> Hey what about
21:02:14 <Slereah_> Lamarckian evolution
21:02:14 <Bike> Slereah_: i was thinking of this because i was raeding a book from the 70s (so not that old) that put forward the folding muscle thing, which has nothing at all to do with the modern theory
21:02:18 <Slereah_> Or Lysenkoism
21:02:27 <Bike> lysenkoism could work
21:02:42 <Slereah_> Or really a lot of scientific theories from the soviet union
21:02:45 <Bike> lamarckianism is kind of weird because of things like it being a huge influence on darwin
21:02:49 <Slereah_> there was a Party Line on science
21:02:55 <Slereah_> Hence there was a lot of weird things
21:03:07 <Bike> the only major ones i know are lysenko and pavlov, and pavlov wasn't /that/ wrong
21:03:19 <Slereah_> What about
21:03:20 <Slereah_> FREUD
21:03:22 <Slereah_> So very wrong
21:03:35 <Slereah_> Or phlogiston
21:03:43 <Bike> they still teach psychoanalysis in intro psych classes.
21:03:48 <Slereah_> I know!
21:03:49 <kmc> what about individual (as opposed to gene) selection :3
21:03:55 <Bike> i don't know why, but
21:04:15 <Bike> kmc: can opens up beneath us, we fall into an earth sized sphere made entirely of worms
21:04:27 <Slereah_> Oh
21:04:31 <Slereah_> And HOLLOW EARTH
21:04:38 <Slereah_> That was big for a while
21:04:40 <Bike> was hollow earth ever a mainstream thing
21:04:48 <Slereah_> Dunno about mainstream
21:04:54 <oerjan> Bike: oh, what about the theory that the sun was mostly iron
21:04:59 <Slereah_> But it enjoyed some popularity in the early 20th century
21:05:03 <Bike> it's like, i know some guys that said mountains were formed by underground gas pockets, but nobody much believed them
21:05:13 <Bike> oerjan: oh i half remember that one
21:05:58 <fizzie> They had that one flat-vs-round on-the-river test about the curvature of Earth that got them the result that the surface is in fact concave.
21:06:10 <Bike> that sounds awesome.
21:06:20 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment
21:06:29 <Bike> aether is the sort of thing i wouldn't count, since it's how other waves work, and i'm gonna be honest i have no idea how EM works
21:06:39 <Slereah_> Flat earth theory hasn't been that popular in the last few thousand years
21:07:13 <Bike> "Several protracted court cases ensued, with the result that Hampden was imprisoned for libel and threatening to kill Wallace." ah, the scientific method
21:07:18 <fizzie> Not popular, but it's had its adherents.
21:07:23 <Slereah_> Although
21:07:28 <Bike> hm, maybe steady state universe.
21:07:31 <Slereah_> It did have its proponents
21:07:35 <Slereah_> Back in the days
21:07:36 <Slereah_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Baylonianmaps.JPG
21:07:42 <Slereah_> Fucking world map~
21:07:49 <Bike> old world maps rule
21:07:56 <Slereah_> It is the oldest world map
21:08:13 <Bike> «Wallace, who had been unaware of Rowbotham's earlier experiments, was criticized by his peers for "his 'injudicious' involvement in a bet to 'decide' the most fundamental and established of scientific facts"» is this like, the 1800s version of evolution debates
21:08:44 <fizzie> The concavity thing is in the "Other experiments" section.
21:08:44 <Slereah_> Although it's really just a little area around babylon
21:08:49 <Slereah_> Lazy cartographers
21:08:54 <Bike> oh hey lewontin wrote a bit about selection units, sweet
21:10:30 <maurer> http://www.tryidris.org/console
21:10:43 <maurer> (I know, I know, probably not esoteric enough)
21:11:44 <Slereah_> Hey myname
21:11:46 <Slereah_> What about
21:11:57 <Slereah_> Continuous brainfuck
21:12:11 <Slereah_> Might be hard!
21:12:40 <myname> what?
21:12:55 <Slereah_> Brainfuck over the real line~
21:13:11 <Slereah_> Although I guess on a processor, it will probably be basic brainfuck
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21:13:17 <Slereah_> Depending how you define it
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21:14:35 <myname> don't get it
21:15:09 <Slereah_> Just some vague idea I had
21:15:18 <Slereah_> Brainfuck that uses a function over R instead of a tape
21:15:39 <myname> i see
21:15:41 <Slereah_> And I guess instead of +- whatever, you use some basis for real functions
21:15:55 <Slereah_> like maybe some Fourier modes
21:17:10 <Slereah_> http://abstrusegoose.com/564
21:17:12 <Slereah_> heh
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21:19:35 <fizzie> kmc: Fun fact: there are 20 trains currently on their way from somewhere to somewhere else in Finland. (VR has an "open data" feed of their current positions.)
21:19:57 <fizzie> (That's not very many; but it is 00:20am, maybe there's more during the day.)
21:20:30 <Slereah_> How many of the conductors are drunk though
21:21:06 <oerjan> istr when we discussed continuous brainfuck, the +->< commands were like infinitesimals, and then you put them in a loop to get larger effects.
21:22:01 <Slereah_> Well if they're infinitesimals you can't add them up to larger effects
21:22:02 <kmc> hm, that is rather few
21:22:03 <oerjan> i'm not sure a proper semantics was made. probably would involve differential equations.
21:22:06 <kmc> I assume that doesn't include the Helsinki Metro
21:22:09 <Slereah_> That's the whole point of infinitesimals!
21:22:20 <olsner> subway trains aren't trains, duh
21:22:21 <oerjan> Slereah_: yes you can, if you add infinitely many of them!
21:22:27 <Slereah_> They break the Archimedian properties
21:22:32 <kmc> well it isn't run by VR
21:22:38 <Slereah_> Well yeah but then how will you define them
21:22:51 <Slereah_> In the end you'll just replicate the natural numbers
21:22:53 <fizzie> kmc: Probably not, though it wouldn't be running at this time anyway.
21:22:55 <Slereah_> With a fancier syntax
21:22:59 <kmc> distinguishing subways from mainline / commuter trains is pretty easy in America, but quite difficult in some places (like Japan)
21:23:07 <fizzie> kmc: It stops at 23:20 except on Fridays.
21:23:31 <fizzie> (And Saturdays.)
21:23:40 <oerjan> Slereah_: that was the intuitive meaning. as i said, a proper semantics would probably involve differential equations.
21:23:55 <Slereah_> Well
21:24:18 <Slereah_> Technically, you can't make all real functions from differential equations with integer factors
21:24:23 <oerjan> also, nonstandard reals probably
21:24:29 <Slereah_> Also I think some diff eqs are uncomputable
21:24:33 <kmc> fizzie: boooooo
21:24:38 <kmc> when does it stop on friday / saturday?
21:24:49 <oerjan> Slereah_: i fail to see how this matters to an esolang hth
21:25:02 <fizzie> kmc: Last trains start at 01:15am one way and 01:05am the other.
21:25:04 <Slereah_> Well it does for an implementable one
21:25:19 <Slereah_> Although
21:25:24 <Slereah_> what could be nice is
21:25:29 <Slereah_> Doing it entirely hardware
21:25:35 <Slereah_> Might work better!
21:25:41 <Slereah_> Just doin' it with currents
21:25:59 <fizzie> (This Friday/Saturday extension is a relatively new thing, they started it in November last year.)
21:27:04 <Slereah_> Is there any neural network based esolang?
21:27:06 <kmc> and when does the first train in the morning run?
21:27:09 <Slereah_> Or other such similar concepts
21:27:22 <kmc> stopping at 23:20 is worse than a lot of subways in america :/
21:29:24 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wittgen are the only hits for Neural.
21:29:49 <kmc> fizzie: are there night buses in helsinki?
21:31:41 <kmc> the last trains on BART depart around midnight or 00:30 on a weekday, depending on the station
21:31:51 <kmc> the last train from the airport is before midnight, which is annoying
21:32:11 <kmc> and they start up around 04:00
21:32:36 <kmc> Google Transit will sometimes give you transit instructions that involve waiting on a street corner in Los Angeles for three hours in the middle of the night
21:32:59 <Slereah_> I wonder how long it would take to make a neural network learn the Fibonacci sequence
21:33:09 <Slereah_> Just input an ordinal and get the sequence member
21:33:58 <Bike> based on the evidence of my brain, i estimate that it would take approximately forever, unless the neural network was also a nerd
21:34:14 <Slereah_> What if i put glasses on it
21:35:11 <Bike> probably needs a pocket protector too
21:37:13 <fizzie> kmc: There are special night-only bus lines, about 5 of theme these days. They go in a zigzaggy way in approximately equally spaced directions starting from the city centre.
21:38:12 <fizzie> Not very many scheduled departures, it's something like (for e.g. the 400N line) 2:35, 3:15, 4:00 and 4:15.
21:38:21 <b_jonas> only fice? hah, small town people
21:38:41 <fizzie> They all seem to be also Friday-and-Saturday-only.
21:38:50 <b_jonas> even more so
21:39:27 <b_jonas> in some places, Budapest has better night buses than day ones
21:40:00 <b_jonas> maybe I should start going to work at \night
21:40:14 <fizzie> The local non-subway trains do have some amount of night service.
21:41:45 <b_jonas> the trains don't go during night here
21:41:50 <fizzie> Like, there's stop-on-all-stations departures from Helsinki towards Riihimäki/Lahti at 1:01, 1:31, 2:01, 2:31, 3:01, 4:01, 5:01 on the Fri/Sat and Sat/Sun nights; that pretty much covers the gap between the regular evening and morning trains.
21:42:14 <b_jonas> that's nice
21:42:24 <b_jonas> I'd like that here
21:42:44 <fizzie> Of course it's less nice if you happen to have some reason to be out late on anything else than a Friday or a Saturday.
21:43:39 <fizzie> E.g. it's pretty hard to go home to sleep on the first night of a Thursday-to-Sunday (pseudo-)demoscene event.
21:43:46 <oerjan> <myname> that sounds invader zimish <-- zzo38 is invader zim?
21:43:59 <fizzie> (Probably my only regular reason for interfacing with late-night public transportation.)
21:45:33 <b_jonas> I think the trains and non-urban buses stop during night so much that there's an instant each night when all passenger trains and all non-urban buses in the country are stopped.
21:45:53 <b_jonas> but it's hard to be sure about that for the buses, with these stupid timetables
21:48:23 <oerjan> <Bike> http://www.theallium.com/science-life/scientists-reportedly-close-to-finding-a-use-for-linkedin/ <-- subtle hostname, there
21:48:37 <kmc> hehe
21:48:58 <fizzie> Though now that we live where we live, the last years I've just used the bicycle paths that run next to the train tracks. Summer nights/early mornings here are quite good for that; it's reasonably light, and usually refreshingly chilly.
21:49:20 <fizzie> Plus the place is for some reason full of rabbits around 03am or so.
21:49:42 <fizzie> I think I counted around twenty on a single trip.
21:49:58 <fizzie> (There's a bit of a pest problem with these "city bunnies".)
21:50:19 <b_jonas> I see
21:50:24 <fizzie> http://yle.fi/uutiset/hunt_for_city_bunnies_begins/6284368
21:50:39 <kmc> cuuuuuuute~
21:51:07 <fizzie> Those things go ridiculously fast for their size.
21:51:16 <kmc> i knew some good spots to find bunnies in Cambridge MA, but none in SF :/
21:52:29 <fizzie> "Helsinki to feed lions and vultures with city bunnies" sounds very exciting.
21:53:10 <fizzie> The circle of life. Except the bunnies are descendants of former pets, and the lions and vultures are in a zoo.
21:53:32 <fizzie> (And humans do the catching and feeding.)
21:53:51 <myname> oerjan: easy to find out. does he have any friends?
21:53:54 <fizzie> "The animal keepers at the zoo have also tried offering rabbits to the Steller's Sea Eagles, Haliaeetus pelagicus, but with little success. Apparently the heaviest eagle in the world, a beast with a wingspan of more than two metres, is actually afraid of the rather small cuddly cuties, which bear a passing resemblance to fur mittens."
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21:56:27 <oerjan> myname: you know, i have no evidence on that. does his D&D DM count?
21:59:59 <myname> :D
22:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> there are rabbits all over the place at warwick
22:06:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i saw a ginger one last year
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22:18:21 <myname> i think i forgot how to sleep
22:18:41 <Taneb> myname, me too
22:18:47 <Taneb> I'm going to sleep now
22:18:58 <Taneb> Then in the morning, TRAVEL TO THE HOMELAND OF PHANTOM HOOVER
22:19:09 <myname> like, i am yawning every other minute but stay awake
22:19:21 <myname> *dun dun dun*
22:19:45 <Taneb> (I need to visit the Australian Commission to renew my passport)
22:20:08 <Taneb> Anyway, goodnight
22:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, why is the australian comission in edinburgh
22:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oh wait i guess edinburgh's just closer than london
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23:50:33 <boily> good evening. a random thought was floating around in my cranium.
23:50:53 <boily> anyone know if jsvine published the Infamous Interview?
23:51:49 <oerjan> never heard anything.
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23:52:41 <madbr> anyone has done verilog?
23:52:47 <boily> I did.
23:52:49 <coppro> someone has
23:52:57 <madbr> :o
23:53:00 <oerjan> did ais523 use that or the other one
23:53:08 <madbr> vhdl?
23:53:16 <oerjan> yeah
23:53:23 <boily> I should have ought to have did vhdl, but kinda dodged it.
23:53:45 <madbr> never done any but vhdl looks rather worse
23:54:04 <oerjan> i'm sure both of these questions could have been easily answered if Gregor hadn't broken `pastelogs hth
23:55:13 <boily> madbr: vhdl is refurbished ada.
23:56:10 <madbr> never tried ada either but it sounds grody
23:57:48 -!- metasepia has joined.
23:57:49 <boily> ~duck grody
23:57:49 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
23:57:54 <boily> `? grody
23:57:55 <HackEgo> grody? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:59:55 <madbr> looks just slightly more wordy in a way that makes it both harder to read and longer to type
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