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00:18:25 <int-e> sorry. funny error though :)
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00:34:54 <Sgeo> @run (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12)^..each
00:34:56 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Control.Lens.Each.Each
00:34:56 <lambdabot> (t0, t1, t2, t3, t4, t5, t6, t7, t8, t9, t10, t11)
00:34:56 <lambdabot> (t0, t1, t2, t3, t4, t5, t6, t7, t8, t9, t10, t11)
00:35:24 <shachaf> idris-ircslave: that's not for you, be quiet
00:36:41 <boily> fungot: do you expect ($)?
00:36:41 <fungot> boily: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let?!
00:37:08 <boily> even fungot spews out punctuation-heavy error messages! Sir Fungellot is corrupted!
00:37:08 <fungot> boily: use the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there ain't no difference from before!
00:37:23 <boily> fungot: of course. everything is the same.
00:37:23 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
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01:24:36 <Sgeo> Gregor: Can a malicious soundfont do anything bad?
01:25:41 <Gregor> Not without bugs in the soundfont interpreter/renderer.
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01:26:22 <Bike> what if it makes you listen to orchestral music done in bike horns
01:28:13 <ion> Is that good or bad?
01:28:28 <ion> Sounds appropriate for, say, P.D.Q. Bach.
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01:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ignition]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39398&oldid=39397 * Oerjan * (+18) I recommend previewing hth
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02:03:50 <Sgeo> What happens if you use something like data Foo = Foo with DataKinds?
02:15:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/promotion.html#promotion-syntax
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03:25:05 <Sgeo> It should be possible to write a liftMn that takes a type-level nat, right?
03:25:13 <Sgeo> Would look ugly though, if I actually understand this
03:25:31 <Sgeo> liftMn (Proxy :: Proxy 2) (+) [1,2,3] [4,5,6]
03:39:22 <kmc> https://github.com/usrbinnc/netcat-cpi-kernel-module an album by a band named netcat, released as a kernel module
03:39:52 <copumpkin> I hope it uses its added privilege for the ultimate DRM
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03:42:12 <Bike> "Building also requires several gigabytes of memory. We're not totally sure why, but we think it is because because the compiler is making lots of copies of several large, static arrays that contain track data." fascinating
03:50:47 <oerjan> hm that suggested new (:: t) syntax won't work as a proxy if t is not of kind *
03:50:52 <kmc> 2048 has a lot of zugzwang
03:51:21 <oerjan> clearly id must also have polymorphic kind hth
04:03:18 <kmc> polymorphic kindness
04:03:54 <kmc> i guess this is vaguely on topic https://twitter.com/christinelove/status/458808917837873152
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04:05:19 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to try Ultrix now
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04:05:42 <oerjan> do you have Ulterior motive
04:07:22 <oerjan> my first logins to this account was to an ultrix machine, nvg's first server.
04:08:34 <Sgeo> Mostly because I've heard of it because of OpenSSLRampage
04:08:42 <Sgeo> And want to bring it out of its coffin
04:09:15 <Bike> sgeo have you seen jsmess
04:09:35 <Bike> a few days ago i tried to run Lemmings on an Amiga and got some bizarre kernel area. it would be nostalgic if the system wasn't older than me
04:10:09 <Sgeo> I've seen similar but narrower in scope (one machine) things before
04:10:46 <Bike> i don't know what unixes it has, though, if any
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04:12:36 <Sgeo> Ooh, E.T. good game?
04:13:07 <Bike> isn't it the notorious opposite of a good game
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04:14:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, wanted to find a blind let's play
04:14:54 <Sgeo> Someone who hasn't heard how bad it is
04:15:32 <Bike> apparently i can play a gundam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandai_RX-78
04:15:47 <kmc> whoa http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/atari-landfill-in-new-mexico-to-be-dug-up-on-saturday-ars-will-be-on-scene/
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04:16:38 <kmc> here's a long article about why it's not so bad, and how to fix it with a few binary patches http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/
04:17:52 <Sgeo> Did it come with a manual
04:17:57 <Sgeo> The UI seems a bit unhelpful
04:18:21 <Bike> well, yeah, 80s
04:23:34 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Hmm, wanted to find a blind let's play <-- are you saying the game gets better if you are blind twh
04:24:46 <Bike> http://projectnaptha.com/ this looks nifty
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06:03:47 <Sgeo> Bike: umuuvvmmuivwmnnwluwnuwwolhwhus
06:05:07 <Sgeo> I AB5ENTH|NDEDLY5ELECT RANDU1 Bl.OO<5 OFTEXTHSI READ, PND FEEL SLRONSCDUSLY SATISFIED LHEN THE HIGHUGHTED AREA |"PKE5 H 5Yl’R1ETRICHL 5|-PPE
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06:06:39 <Bike> are you saying text recognition isn't perfect
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06:11:29 <oerjan> well the first one is obviously upside down, it should be snymytomnumntmuuwmltnwwmnnwn
06:11:53 <oerjan> which is a common welsh greeting.
06:40:00 <Taneb> "@todo Better Documentation" exactly what you want when you're trying to figure out a program in a language you don't know
06:41:30 <lambdabot> 0. SamB: A way to get multiple results from a google search
06:41:30 <lambdabot> 1. dons: improve formatting of @dict
06:41:30 <lambdabot> 3. lispy: don't let lambdabot's prettyprinter split the sequence @foo across lines
06:41:30 <lambdabot> 4. TheHunter: priviledged users should get priviledged listcommands.
06:42:04 <fizzie> lambdabot: So much to do, so little time.
06:43:40 <oerjan> @dict och forbandet løgn
06:43:40 <lambdabot> There is no dictionary database 'och'.
06:43:40 <lambdabot> There is no dictionary database 'forbandet'.
06:43:40 <lambdabot> There is no dictionary database 'løgn'.
06:43:57 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
06:44:12 <lambdabot> I perform dictionary lookups via the following 14 commands:
06:44:12 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
06:44:12 <lambdabot> bouvier ..... Bouvier's Law Dictionary
06:44:12 <lambdabot> cide ........ The Collaborative International Dictionary of English
06:44:12 <lambdabot> devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary
06:44:13 <lambdabot> easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
06:44:17 <lambdabot> foldoc ...... The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing
06:44:19 <lambdabot> gazetteer ... U.S. Gazetteer (2000)
06:44:21 <Bike> well this is verbose.
06:44:21 <lambdabot> hitchcock ... Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)
06:45:03 <lambdabot> *** "potable" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
06:45:05 <lambdabot> POTABLE, n. Suitable for drinking. Water is said to be potable;
06:45:07 <lambdabot> indeed, some declare it our natural beverage, although even they find
06:45:09 <lambdabot> it palatable only when suffering from the recurrent disorder known as
06:45:11 <lambdabot> thirst, for which it is a medicine. Upon nothing has so great and
06:45:16 <lambdabot> diligent ingenuity been brought to bear in all ages and in all
06:45:17 <lambdabot> countries, except the most uncivilized, as upon the invention of
06:45:19 <lambdabot> substitutes for water. To hold that this general aversion to that
06:45:21 <lambdabot> liquid has no basis in the preservative instinct of the race is to be
06:45:23 <lambdabot> unscientific -- and without science we are as the snakes and toads.
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06:48:35 <Taneb> "it was either you or me, lambdabot"
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06:58:20 <coppro> lambdabot needs a pastbin
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07:08:21 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
07:08:21 <fungot> kmc: ( c) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0
07:08:27 <kmc> hi pikhq, how goes it?
07:19:04 <fizzie> Fun fact: ARIN now has a single /8 left, too -- https://www.arin.net/announcements/2014/20140423.html
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07:45:32 <lifthrasiir> "By APNIC policy, each current or future member can receive only one /22 block from this last /8 (there are 16384 /22 blocks in the last /8 block)."
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07:48:50 <slereah_> Like check the length of the series
07:49:02 <slereah_> And if it's short, I use the regular Baum Welch algorithm
07:49:09 <slereah_> but if it's long, it's log ahoy
07:49:38 <Bike> the regular baumkuchen algorithm
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09:14:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘>’
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09:21:59 <shachaf> kmc: do you think something like http://flint.cs.yale.edu/flint/publications/flex.pdf would be realistic for rust
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10:14:46 <shachaf> kmc: also i wonder whether shipwreck is named after http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1912/may/08c.htm
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10:30:38 <slereah_> So it turns out the last value was ~ e^-1611.5
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10:51:26 <ais523> int-e: do you have a 1 in 1611 probability that you're trying to estimate how long before you have a 50% chance of it happening?
10:52:37 <int-e> ais523: I was estimating the exponent field in a floating point representation of e^-1611.5
10:52:44 <int-e> binary floating point that is
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10:58:11 <ais523> huh, I'm seeing the headlines "OpenBSD forks OpenSSL"
10:58:20 <ais523> which confuses me, because I thought OpenSSL was their project in the first plae
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10:59:48 <fizzie> Not everything that starts "Open" is theirs.
10:59:58 <ais523> but I thought that in particular was
11:00:50 <fizzie> What I think is boringly unimaginative is the "LibreSSL" name. I mean, Openswan got forked as Libreswan back when they had problems of their own.
11:01:28 <ais523> are they copying the OpenOffice/LibreOffice thing?
11:02:12 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't even think of that.
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11:03:18 <ais523> that has to be the highest-profile open→libre fork
11:03:22 <ais523> not sure if it was the first
11:05:02 <fizzie> What's next, LibreStreetMap?
11:05:55 <fizzie> (LibreVPN, LibreLDAP, LibreSceneGraph, LibreTTD, ...)
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11:52:38 <Melvar> < mroman> > foldl1 (\a b -> (a,b)) [1,2,3] < mroman> Would that work in idris? – The answer is: Yes! Idris can do that. More seriously, mutatis mutandis, the idea can be made to work.
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12:03:56 <Melvar> Using only things I have available at the repl:
12:04:06 <Melvar> ( elim_for Prelude.List.List Integer (elim_for Prelude.List.List Integer (const Type) () (\x,xs,y => (Integer,y))) (the () ()) (\x, xs, xs' => (x, xs'))
12:04:06 <idris-ircslave> <<Prelude.List.List eliminator>> Integer (<<Prelude.List.List eliminator>> Integer (\v => Type) () (\x => \xs => \y => (Integer, y))) () (\x3 => \xs4 => \xs' => (x3, xs')) : (scrutinee : List Integer) ->
12:04:06 <idris-ircslave> <<Prelude.List.List eliminator>> Integer (\v => Type) () (\x => \xs => \y => (Integer, y)) scrutinee
12:04:18 <Melvar> ( elim_for Prelude.List.List Integer (elim_for Prelude.List.List Integer (const Type) () (\x,xs,y => (Integer,y))) (the () ()) (\x, xs, xs' => (x, xs')) [1,2,3]
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12:27:40 <slereah_> I name my variables according to what will give the best alignment in the code
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12:35:40 <FireFly> Use single-letter variable names
12:35:43 * ais523 mentions something about PHP's hashing algorithm for built-in functions
12:35:53 <FireFly> Allows for perfect alignment and reduces the number of keystrokes
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12:58:14 <slereah_> FireFly : Plus it would be nice to leave something for the next intern to do
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13:02:03 <slereah_> indirectly lost: 7,204,400 bytes in 350 blocks
13:02:15 <ais523> slereah_: is that a valgrind report?
13:02:31 <ais523> worrying about indirectly lost isn't normally worth it, those are memory leaks that'll go away if you fix the "directly lost" leaks
13:02:40 <ais523> basically, leaks caused as a result of other leaks
13:05:21 <slereah_> The bigger problem though is that the algorithm doesn't work
13:05:47 <ais523> the memory management algorithm? or the algorithm that the leaky code is trying to impl?
13:09:40 <slereah_> But it does not converge to anything
13:10:54 <fizzie> Impressive, given how it's guaranteed to.
13:12:19 <slereah_> Don't know where the code fucks up
13:12:34 <ais523> FireFly: sometimes when I write comments, I try to make every line the same length
13:12:51 <ais523> if you have around 76 columns to write in, which is typical, it's actually not very difficult
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13:19:29 <ais523> just pick different words
13:19:39 <fizzie> Wonder if there are automatic tools for that.
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13:40:16 <Jafet> Subject: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS PROPOSAL!!!
13:40:17 <Jafet> Greetings to you, I am Mrs.Helen Wong, from Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited. (China)I have a business proposal of USD$30,000,000
13:40:24 <Jafet> From: Mrs. Helen Wong <suvanto.martti@pp.inet.fi>
13:40:35 <Jafet> Come on, at least try.
13:41:56 <int-e> your mail client is supposed to display that as "Mrs. Helen Wong", because the e-mail address is too technical for layfolks
13:46:05 <fizzie> FedEx customer support number's phone IVR menu starts with "press 1 if you have received an e-mail about a shipment you were not expecting".
13:46:09 <fizzie> I assume that's because of spam.
13:46:45 <ais523> either that or their email notification system is broken
13:47:02 <fizzie> It was also spoken in an entirely different voice than the rest of the menus.
13:47:25 <ais523> Jafet: there's a theory that spammers intentionally make their emails look like spam to humans (if not spam filters), because they're only going to be able to get money out of the most gullible targets anyway, and thus it helps to filter for gullibility in advance
13:47:42 <ais523> fizzie: is this in English or Finnish?
13:47:49 <fizzie> Finnish, I was paraphrasing a bit.
13:47:54 <fizzie> It might well be the same for English.
13:48:39 <fizzie> I also had to navigate three levels down (main menu -> "international shipments" -> "press 5 for further options") before learning the shortcut ("0#") to talk to a human.
13:49:46 <ais523> there's a well-known pseudo-shortcut of hitting 0 repeatedly to get past those systems, I'm not sure if that generally works or not now that it's well-known
13:49:57 <fizzie> At least my up-and-coming ISP's customer service number uses speech recognition, which makes one feel very futuristic.
13:50:03 <ais523> a lesser-known method where you stay completely silent for about a minute and it assumes you have a pulse phone rather than a touch-tone phone
13:50:07 <ais523> and connects you to a human then
13:50:17 <ais523> but speech recognition avoids that loophol
13:50:34 <ais523> clearly we need a speech synthesizer based on `words
13:51:44 <fizzie> ais523: I stayed completely silent for maybe 30 seconds (because I couldn't really figure out what to say to the speech recognizer) and it started a speech about how I can also select this or that number with the keypad.
13:51:46 <Jafet> Apparently, speech synthesizers are now good enough for... youtube videos.
13:52:25 <ais523> Jafet: occasionally, YouTube has an option to autogenerate subtitles based on speech recognition
13:52:27 <fizzie> (Of course that was approximately the same moment when I actually started speaking, which made the menu text stop, but I also stopped talking out of confusion. It was all very awkward.
13:52:37 <ais523> even more occasionally, it also gives you the option to run the resulting subtitles through Google Translate
13:52:46 <ais523> if this ever comes up, I recommend using it
13:52:53 <ais523> sometimes it even produces something intelligible
13:53:01 <Jafet> Automatic closed captioning, sounds legit.
13:53:32 <fizzie> I used the YouTube speech recognition subtitles a year and half ago when giving a surprise lecture (the normal lecturer cancelled with no lead-up time) on a machine learning class.
13:53:36 <ais523> Jafet: well the BBC seemed to use automatic closed captioning on 888 sometimes, but that might have had humans intervening
13:53:41 <fizzie> Though it'd be both thematically appropriate and funny.
13:53:49 <fizzie> It was at least the latter.
13:53:57 <ais523> certainly, there were many cases where there were computer-like mistakes but followed by a correction
13:54:01 <Jafet> (On the rare occasion that I am near a television, the closed captioning looks bad enough that it might have been automatically generated anyways)
13:54:06 <fizzie> (The language model they were using wasn't very well-versed on probablistic models and the EM algorithm.)
13:54:57 <fizzie> (I showed them some open MIT lecture video thing, since I couldn't really think of much else.)
13:55:11 <b_jonas> like http://www.xkcd.com/806/ ?
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13:56:38 <ais523> (I should explain the 888 thing for people who aren't British and/or aren't old enough to have seen a 10-to-20-year-old television; basically, the UK analog TV channels had an information service which was a bit like a website but much more limited, with the information carried in the vertical retrace time between frames; each page had a three-digit number; and number 888 was reserved for the closed captions (and sent much more frequently than the
13:56:40 <ais523> other numbers, which would be updated every 20 seconds or so, and normally cycled between multiple pages)
13:56:52 <ais523> 100 was the home page, and I think 199 was the index
13:57:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's called teletext
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13:58:05 <ais523> b_jonas: in the UK, it was called Teletext by ITV, but Ceefax by the BBC
13:58:38 <fizzie> Teksti-TV ("text TV") in Finland.
13:59:02 <ais523> I used to get video game recommendations from Teletext
13:59:11 <ais523> Teletext is directly responsible for my love of Advance Wars
13:59:42 <fizzie> I used to read the letters from the viewers occasionally.
14:00:05 <fizzie> Plus there was a page for DXers.
14:00:32 <ais523> b_jonas: a computer game series for the Gameboy Advance and Nintendo DS; it's actually part of a larger series called Nintendo Wars, but has an identity of its own
14:00:42 <ais523> it's basically a lightweight turn-based strategy game
14:01:02 <fizzie> The sidebar at http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/P100_01.html -- the web-terface to the "Finnish BBC's" TeleText service -- claims they still have 1.7 million "users", though I find that slightly dubious, they don't exactly explain how they've arrived at that number.
14:01:12 <fizzie> I understand Ceefax was shut down the other year?
14:01:19 <fizzie> I think I heard people being disappointed about it.
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14:01:44 <ais523> fizzie: there was a replacement for digital TVs, not sure if that's still going
14:01:48 <ais523> I think it is but I'm not sure
14:01:52 <b_jonas> I'm not sure whether TV stations still have teletext here in Hungary even after the all-digital thing
14:01:54 <ais523> the major change is that it supports 4-digit numbers now
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14:02:30 <b_jonas> teletext is a really ancient system, it was designed to be easily decodable by simple electronics, and that shows
14:02:36 <fizzie> DVB has some amount of TeleText support, they've kept at least that YLE thing.
14:02:45 <b_jonas> so not only it's limited, but it also has a locale-dependent character set
14:03:24 <b_jonas> yes, it seems we still have teletext
14:03:28 <fizzie> Huh, there's actually more details about those 1.2 million users, it was based on some opinion poll.
14:03:43 <b_jonas> there's a javascript-based copy on the internet at http://www.teletext.hu/
14:04:34 <fizzie> 1.2 million look at teletext at least once a week, 780 000 visit at least daily, 360 000 at least twice a day; 97% do it via a TV.
14:05:09 <fizzie> Trending down in the "less than 25 years" age category, somehow I'm not terribly surprised.
14:05:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: how can they measure that? it's a passive system, the tv doesn't send signals
14:05:56 <fizzie> And then extrapolating.
14:06:08 <fizzie> They don't mention sample sizes, but come on, we're not doing *science* here.
14:06:24 <b_jonas> at least they don't quote numbers with absolute error of 0.01 persons like some of the tv channel viewer statistics
14:06:37 <b_jonas> which, mind you, in the analog tv era were also impossible to produce for exactly the same reason
14:06:53 <b_jonas> for digital tv, maybe you can get teletext statistics, I don't know
14:07:04 <b_jonas> I've no idea how that works
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14:08:08 <fizzie> I've read about it, and I think it was something deliciously old-fashioned.
14:08:49 <fizzie> I mean, they've got all that MHP stuff and so on going on, but the teletext was going through something involving things not too far departed from the analogue formats.
14:10:12 <fizzie> It's one of these "interactive TV" things they did around DVB.
14:10:28 <fizzie> There's a Java VM involved and all that, I don't know if it's actually used anywhere.
14:10:48 <fizzie> "In May 2010 the largest deployments DVB-MHP are in Italy (DVB-T), Korea (DVB-S), Belgium (DVB-C) and Poland (DVB-S) with trials or small deployments in Germany, Spain, Austria, Colombia, Uruguay and Australia. MHP service was also offered in Finland by Finnish Broadcating Corporation (Yleisradio), but the service was shut down at the end of 2007 after technical failure. The shutdown wasn't ...
14:10:49 <b_jonas> jesus, java vm in your tv? just like in old mobile phones? scary
14:10:55 <fizzie> ... ever officially announced."
14:11:44 <fizzie> There's also the MHEG-5 language.
14:15:32 <fizzie> Yeah, DVB-TXT is a standard for encoding the teletext stuff in a MPEG-2 bitstream, the idea being that a DVB receiver box connected the "old-fashioned way" can then disentangle it and re-embed it in the vertical blanking interval signal, and an old TV set then re-decode it out.
14:17:32 <fizzie> I haven't been following the market at all, I don't know if native DVB receivers in TVs (and boxes connected over HDMI) can do teletext decoding. I guess so, if they've got all those millions of users still.
14:17:44 <Jafet> This is extra great when you factor in that many new Smart TVs have cameras in them
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14:20:43 <fizzie> "-- these fields correspond to the 43 bytes following the clock-run-in sequence of an EBU Teletext data packet as defined in ITU-R Recommendation BT.653 -- Data packets are inserted in the same order as they are intended to arrive at the Teletext decoder or to be transcoded into the VBI --" so apparently DVB-TXT is just stuffing that same bitstream in.
14:21:24 -!- shikhin has joined.
14:22:13 <Jafet> `run fgrep 'KELVIN SIGN' bin/UnicodeData.txt
14:22:13 <HackEgo> 212A;KELVIN SIGN;Lu;0;L;004B;;;;N;DEGREES KELVIN;;;006B;
14:22:46 <fizzie> The decrees of Kelvin.
14:27:15 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, I have a crazy idea
14:29:21 <b_jonas> let's redefine UTC so it increases a little bit faster than it does now, but jumps back an hour once a year;
14:29:44 <b_jonas> and make local time follow it but jump back an hour a different date of the year,
14:30:00 <b_jonas> so that UTC and local time are symmetric, both jump back an hour compared to the other
14:30:20 <b_jonas> and their offsets alternate between the two values they use now,
14:30:34 <b_jonas> but local time won't skip an hour forward anymore
14:35:24 <Jafet> I have an even crazier idea
14:35:30 <Jafet> Don't use this daylight saving crap
14:50:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:52:27 <ais523> is this channel really > 10% bots?
14:53:04 <applybot> Isabelle is not running. \ Loaded theories: Main "~~/src/HOL/Library/Code_Target_Nat" "~~/src/HOL/Number_Theory/Primes" \ 0 lines in session. \ Command timeout is 20 s. \ Unicode translation enabled. \ Colour output enabled.
14:53:15 <ais523> applybot, clog, egobot, fungot, glogbot, HackEgo, idris-ircslave, jconn, lambdabot are the ones that have bot-like names or that I know are bots
14:53:15 <fungot> ais523: " and this is a new game. there is no quadrant which naturally led to a fnord and fnord hoarsely at something which amused myself that way. consider this platform i am aware, commissioner, that there are no gentiles in the garden, examining the fastenings of the drawing-room window, washing and the summoning of the small piece of source code anywhere there's whitespace is ignored and made my own, freed. in c, it's dlope
14:53:55 <Jafet> myndzi is somewhere between 0 and 1 of a bot
14:54:06 <Jafet> So that makes the >10% by a hair
14:54:32 <fizzie> Does the codu.org logs, I presume.
14:54:34 <b_jonas> glogbot, ais says you're a bot, is that true?
14:55:08 <fizzie> "monotone" sounds like a bot. (No offense.)
14:55:26 -!- monotone has changed nick to polytone.
14:55:39 <fizzie> That's much less like one.
14:55:49 <Jafet> MindlessDrone seems somewhat likely
14:58:57 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
15:01:44 -!- home has joined.
15:02:14 <home> are you guys all bots?
15:02:50 <ais523> quite a few are, though
15:02:57 <ais523> fungot: are you a bot?
15:02:57 <fungot> ais523: and more plus the latin is a timeless language
15:04:44 <ais523> home: ‰ is out from % by a factor of 10
15:04:50 <ais523> so what the topic means is that we're more than 10% bots
15:04:53 <ais523> I counted, and this is true
15:05:06 <Jafet> Well, this was true.
15:05:58 <ais523> we need another 8 non-bots to join before it becomes false, unless I missed one, or unless you count myndzi who is sometimes a bot (e.g. \o/)
15:06:09 <ais523> maybe the ) threw it off: \o/
15:06:17 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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15:08:05 <ais523> well at least two bots agree on the bot percentage
15:08:10 <ais523> right down to the number of decimal places involved
15:08:23 <ais523> !c printf("%lf\n", 9.0 / 82.0 * 100.0);
15:08:43 <ais523> EgoBot disagrees on the number of decimal places, though
15:10:02 <b_jonas> ) (9 % 82) * 100 NB. jconn disagrees on the number of decimal places too
15:10:52 <ais523> now we have to get fungot to do the same calculation
15:10:52 <fungot> ais523: i know i didn't know that you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need just some 50 more metres and i'm home, and realised i forgot to take down what he actually checks
15:11:10 <int-e> !echo 'scale=64;9/0.82' | bc
15:11:10 <EgoBot> 'scale=64;9/0.82' | bc
15:11:16 <int-e> `` echo 'scale=64;9/0.82' | bc
15:11:17 <HackEgo> 10.9756097560975609756097560975609756097560975609756097560975609756
15:11:23 <ais523> fizzie: I was going to ask you if fungot supported fingerprints for floating-point arithmetic, then I realised it doesn't run Funge code (it's just /written/ in Funge code)
15:11:24 <fungot> ais523: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week,
15:11:44 <int-e> !echo `` echo 'scale=64;9/0.82' | bc
15:11:44 <EgoBot> `` echo 'scale=64;9/0.82' | bc
15:12:40 <Jafet> @run 9 / 82 * 100 :: CReal
15:12:41 <lambdabot> 10.9756097560975609756097560975609756097561
15:12:51 <ais523> there are basically two mechanisms for preventing botloops used in this channel
15:12:55 <ais523> some bots don't accept input from other bots
15:13:02 <ais523> other bots refuse to produce output that will be run by other bots
15:13:16 <ais523> neither sort of bot can be involved in a loop, relatively obviously
15:13:18 <b_jonas> ais523: the proper way would be for bots to output NOTICE only, not PRIVMSG
15:13:23 <int-e> @run text "!echo too many spaces"
15:13:26 <b_jonas> but people seem to hate that, so not even my bot does that yet
15:13:28 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah but if you send a channel notice, it annoys mIRC users
15:13:37 <ais523> thus, mIRC continues to break IRC by its very existence
15:13:48 <Jafet> I wonder how many actual irc users NOTICE annoys these days.
15:13:56 <ais523> idris-ircslave doesn't ignore fungot
15:14:04 <int-e> b_jonas: right, that client apparently produces popups for NOTICEs
15:14:10 <ais523> this seems potentially usable for a loop, if you could get idris-ircslave to output a line starting with a ^
15:14:27 <b_jonas> ais523: as a compromise, jevalbot (of which jconn is an instance) always starts reply lines in channels with the nick of whoever asked
15:14:35 <b_jonas> that's not enough to stop all bot loops, but it stops some
15:14:40 <ais523> b_jonas: that's not very good at preventing botloops
15:14:45 <ais523> because bots often use their own nick as a prefix
15:14:49 <b_jonas> ais523: if all bots did that, then it was enough
15:15:02 <ais523> in fact, it might make them easier, if you have two bots interpreting the same language
15:15:20 <ais523> although, not very useful unless you can produce text after the ^
15:15:47 <b_jonas> elliott: if all bots did that, then you couldn't get any bot address any other bot (unless you took their nick just before they enter)
15:15:54 <ais523> hmm, fungot didn't run it
15:16:07 <b_jonas> ) (|.' 3QL80ZccObJYffKUf9dZ7Zdrtnk4RR6gprNgzA') ": (9 % 82) * 100
15:16:07 <jconn> b_jonas: |length error
15:16:08 <jconn> b_jonas: | (|.' 3QL80ZccObJYffKUf9dZ7Zdrtnk4RR6gprNgzA') ":(9%82)*100
15:16:09 <ais523> the <EOF> should have given an error message, but we should have got the "test" output first
15:16:18 <b_jonas> ) (|.' 3QL80ZccObJYffKUf9dZ7Zdrtnk4RR6gprNgzA') , ": (9 % 82) * 100
15:16:18 <elliott> b_jonas: but given that one single bot breaks that, it's not a very useful property
15:16:18 <jconn> b_jonas: AzgNrpg6RR4kntrdZ7Zd9fUKffYJbOccZ08LQ3 10.9756
15:16:27 <elliott> b_jonas: you might as well obey the RFC and say all bots should use NOTICE
15:16:38 <elliott> that would also "solve" the problem
15:16:40 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, that's what I should do when I rewrite my bots
15:16:48 <int-e> @run ap (++) show "@run ap (++) show "
15:16:48 <elliott> not really, NOTICE is really annoying
15:16:49 <lambdabot> "@run ap (++) show \"@run ap (++) show \""
15:16:54 <elliott> b_jonas: also, you assume that no nick can ever be a valid command to a bot
15:16:59 <int-e> @run text $ ap (++) show "@run text $ ap (++) show "
15:17:00 <lambdabot> @run text $ ap (++) show "@run text $ ap (++) show "
15:17:17 <b_jonas> AzgNrpg6RR4kntrdZ7Zd9fUKffYJbOccZ08LQ3 of fungot?
15:17:17 <fungot> b_jonas: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has to be all " pow!" and he was suddenly i rose, put up her mouth, pulled down by the gold saucer... think his name was close ever, and yet, at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, " the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier, de. she wanna be friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his subjects,
15:17:22 <ais523> ^ isn't legal in nicks, is it/
15:18:07 <Jafet> I think `^_^v will disagree.
15:18:14 <b_jonas> I made some bot loops a few years ago
15:18:24 <b_jonas> not using my own bots of course, because that would be too easy
15:18:57 <Melvar> I wonder why idris-ircslave isn’t listening to EgoBot.
15:19:38 <ais523> that's normally a good thing, isn't it?
15:19:53 <ais523> it listens to fungot, at least
15:19:53 <fungot> ais523: uh, sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
15:20:53 <idris-ircslave> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
15:21:13 <b_jonas> maybe EgoBot prints something invisible, let me check
15:21:34 <HackEgo> U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE \ UTF-8: e2 80 8b UTF-16BE: 200b Decimal: ​ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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15:23:11 <Jafet> Anyway, this started as a discussion on the seeming proliferation of bots.
15:23:14 <b_jonas> yes, it does print somethign invisible. and I think we checked this once
15:23:29 <b_jonas> Jafet: I think we had a much higher rate of bots on #buubot back when it was more popular
15:23:29 <ais523> I agree with the use of ‰ in the topic, anyway
15:23:38 <ais523> it's like this channel's use of diareses when appropriate
15:24:15 <int-e> lambdabot: > let n:ns = ["lambdacat", "lambdadog", "lambdabot"]; x@[a,b,c] = [": > let n = ","; [a,b,c] = "," in text $ n ++ a ++ show (ns ++ [n]) ++ b ++ show x ++ c"] in text $ n ++ a ++ show (ns ++ [n]) ++ b ++ show x ++ c
15:24:35 <int-e> hmm. needs to use @run
15:24:56 <int-e> lambdabot: @run let n:ns = ["lambdacat", "lambdadog", "lambdabot"]; x@[a,b,c] = [": @run let n = ","; [a,b,c] = "," in text $ n ++ a ++ show (ns ++ [n]) ++ b ++ show x ++ c"] in text $ n ++ a ++ show (ns ++ [n]) ++ b ++ show x ++ c
15:24:57 <lambdabot> lambdacat: @run let n = ["lambdadog","lambdabot","lambdacat"]; [a,b,c] = [":...
15:25:47 <int-e> so it'd need to be a really short quine.
15:25:49 <ais523> it's not quite a perfect quine, it forgot the pattern match the second tiem round
15:26:26 <b_jonas> but those lambdacats are just funny pics
15:26:41 <int-e> right. I added the x@ as an afterthought, it's easy enough to fix in [a,b,c]
15:27:32 <int-e> b_jonas: the idea was to cycle through the nicks
15:28:22 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run "you don't reply to anything that starts with a space, do you?"
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15:29:06 <int-e> b_jonas: Of course not :)
15:30:54 <int-e> @let cheat = text "lambdacat: @run cheat" -- lambdabot is too powerful
15:31:01 <int-e> lambdabot: @run cheat
15:31:14 <int-e> it's a good thing that it adds that space.
15:31:30 <ais523> int-e: I remember doing that to exploit some sort of impromptu golf contest
15:32:19 <b_jonas> ) text =: 'what, like this?'
15:32:21 <jconn> b_jonas: what, like this?
15:33:26 <ais523> assignment in J is backwards from Pascal? as in =: not :=?
15:34:39 <Jafet> @run text (ap printf show "text (ap printf show %s)")
15:34:41 <lambdabot> text (ap printf show "text (ap printf show %s)")
15:34:55 <ais523> huh, Haskell has a printf?
15:35:06 <ais523> that seems hard to fit into the type system
15:35:11 <Melvar> ais523: It’s because : (and .) is a modifier on the previous character generally. So = is compare equality, =: is global assign, =. is local assign, and there are many such triples.
15:35:12 <b_jonas> Jafet: wouldn't var instead of text work?
15:35:37 <Jafet> @run var $ ap printf show "var $ ap printf show %s")
15:35:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:47: parse error on input ‘)’
15:35:40 <Jafet> @run var $ ap printf show "var $ ap printf show %s"
15:35:41 <lambdabot> var $ ap printf show "var $ ap printf show %s"
15:35:46 <ais523> Melvar: I was very impressed with Perl 6 for inventing the .= operator
15:35:54 <ais523> a .= b expands to "a = a.b"
15:36:23 <ais523> where b would typically be a method call
15:36:43 <Melvar> ais523: Doesn’t perl 5 already have that, except . means append there?
15:36:56 <ais523> Melvar: yes, that's less interesting
15:37:00 <ais523> it doesn't have a ->= operator
15:37:16 <coppro> ais523: isn't = as a suffix some form of meta-operator?
15:37:25 <Melvar> But yeah, Perl 6 interestingly generalized this sort of thing.
15:37:25 <coppro> because it's perl 6 and it would be too simple otherwise
15:37:53 <ais523> although interpreting method calls as an infix operator seems a little weird to me, because I consider what's on the right to be syntactically different from what's on the left
15:38:06 <ais523> that said, Perl 5 has =>, which has a syntactically different left
15:38:12 <ais523> and is otherwise identical to a comma
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15:38:46 <coppro> perl 6 is overengineere
15:38:51 <Melvar> ais523: Well, in some languages/contexts, method call is just reverse application.
15:38:53 <coppro> we should add it to esolang for that reason
15:39:00 <ais523> I think its main purpose for existence is being overengineered
15:39:19 <coppro> ais523: did you see Tarpit, btw? I was bored
15:39:37 <ais523> no, and I have to go home now, so I won't get to see it until later
15:39:41 <b_jonas> @run var $ concatMap (["\\", "\"", ", ", "@run var $ concatMap([", "]!!) [3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]"]!!) [3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
15:39:42 <lambdabot> @run var $ concatMap(["\\", "\"", "@run var $ concatMap([", "]!!) [3,1,0,0,1...
15:39:59 <ais523> definitely don't have time to see it now, then
15:40:02 -!- ais523 has quit.
15:41:04 <b_jonas> hmm, it really truncates early
15:42:46 <home> concatMap([", "]!!)
15:43:01 -!- home has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
15:45:09 <int-e> it truncates each line after 80 characters *on channels*
15:45:37 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
15:45:57 <int-e> it's happier to be verbose in privmsg
15:50:01 <b_jonas> so do we have any loopable bots here? I tried to set up a loop using fungot once, but I couldn't
15:50:02 <fungot> b_jonas:, so i'd make stuff up to. why, this is for you guys are a lot of the design, prisoners and slaves that have sucked. rephrase: " i tried todo a _" is 0
15:50:30 <coppro> b_jonas: we might, but we'll kill you
15:57:49 <Melvar> I never cease to be amused by that one.
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16:16:55 <fizzie> We've had botloops in the history of the channel.
16:17:20 <fizzie> But HackEgo and EgoBot have that zero-width space thing, and fungot has a manual ignore list.
16:17:20 <fungot> fizzie: " and this is a new game. there is no quadrant which naturally led to a fnord style for the operator, or identical here.) indent all
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16:18:28 <Jafet> Proper flood control is the best, but it is usually not implemented
16:20:43 <fizzie> Oh, and fungot-babble has a limit of not replying to the same person more than four (or so) times in a row.
16:20:43 <fungot> fizzie: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
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16:33:26 <coppro> zero-width space thing?
16:35:40 <Bike> they put a zero-width before their output, i think, which trips up other prefix commands
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16:40:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: for the record, jconn has an ignore list too, but it's not really up-to-date so bots on this channel are probably not on it;
16:41:34 <b_jonas> however, a bot could send a private message with a special command to jconn to have it added to its ignore list (this is temporarily, lasts only until jconn restarts)
16:43:08 <fizzie> Bike: Approximately so, except not to lines starting with an alphanumeric character.
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17:13:18 <zzo38> OK now I renamed some functions, such as taillib_close into taillib_free and taillib_open into taillib_read
17:13:42 <zzo38> I agree it is better this way.
17:15:08 <zzo38> I mentioned also interface for Haskell and SQL as well as C, but I forgot one; another one may be useful to have is Forth. Possibly the Forth interface can be write-only, although someone else could make a read/write interface too if you like to.
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17:30:14 <zzo38> It is good idea, what is suggested before; to add functions to add a object, text, subroutine, instruction, etc.
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17:41:16 <zzo38> I try to think of, what is the best interface to add such thing on?
17:42:14 -!- password2 has joined.
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17:44:07 <zzo38> I did already add one Game*taillib_new_game(void) function.
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17:59:27 <HackEgo> alfromcoin luicoin ahacoin loopcoin beckoucoin duscoin kondccoin undcoin laborishcoin frogcoin retacoin eningianiquecoin calliicoin truckcoin luctcoin prolecoin grandcoin dumerycourcogcoin gotocoin v--coin
18:00:01 <fizzie> laborishcoin, the currency of the proletariat.
18:00:34 <fizzie> Oh, there's plain "prolecoin" on the very same line, too. Must be some sort of a plot.
18:02:44 <kmc> communist coins :O
18:03:46 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
18:05:47 <fizzie> "“I just don’t care [about fiddling with my phone while driving and hitting a cyclist] because I’ve already been through a lot of bullshit and my car is like pretty expensive and now I have to fix it,” she told a police officer."
18:08:43 <Jafet> I blame google for not taking over the road system yet
18:09:17 <zzo38> It isn't Google's job to take over the road system (nor should it be).
18:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> isometries of a metric space needn't be surjective right?
18:12:11 <kmc> zzo38: tell that to justine tunney
18:12:35 <kmc> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/20/occupy-founder-obama-eric-schmidt-ceo-america
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18:14:16 <Jafet> zzo couldn't handle the champagne tranarchist
18:17:46 <Jafet> oi el ol' goog http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/340326/if-f-m-to-m-an-isometry-is-f-bijective
18:18:03 <kmc> i know, right?
18:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Jafet, ahahaha my counterexample was way more complicated than that
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18:21:07 <Jafet> Wait, why is that not surjective
18:21:35 -!- atriq has joined.
18:21:43 <fizzie> Jafet: Have you accidentally tilted your head 90 degrees?
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18:22:09 <Bike> "Explaining on Twitter why she thinks anti-capitalism is compatible with promotion of her employers, "
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18:22:24 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: infinite space with distance between any pair of points is 1
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18:24:09 <oklopol> first answer in the stackexchange link is more natural of course
18:25:04 <Slereah> I want to go to the meta stack exchange
18:25:06 -!- tertu has joined.
18:25:18 <Slereah> "GETTING RID OF MY STACKS FOR NEW STACKS"
18:25:23 <Phantom_Hoover> my geometry exam toay had the question 'prove that the set of all isometrie of a metric space form a transformation group'
18:25:30 <Slereah> WILL ANYONE TAKE MY OLD STACKS FOR OTHER STACKS
18:25:30 <int-e> wtf. "the one corporation that gives away everything for free"?!
18:25:41 <Phantom_Hoover> which is obviously bullshit because isometries aren't invertible
18:25:55 <int-e> Where does she think Google gets its money? Ok, so she's the product, but still, that's ridiculous.
18:26:13 <kmc> Slereah: lololol
18:26:18 <fizzie> int-e: Well, but I mean, they're building the superintelligence.
18:26:18 <Slereah> I thought google was making its money on human bones
18:26:32 <Slereah> They steal children's bones
18:26:49 <oklopol> probably they were thinking of R^n
18:29:00 <fizzie> Google's sponsoring this conference I'm going to, they've invited people (probably according to some ALGORITHM) to this "Google Research Happy Hour" thing to "hear perspectives" and "meet and talk" about a "slew of interesting problems".
18:29:31 <fizzie> For the good of mankind, I'm sure.
18:32:30 <fizzie> I don't know, a "happy hour" at a "rooftop bar", how could it be a trap.
18:33:18 <kmc> is the booze free or no
18:33:24 <kmc> maybe it's ad-supported
18:33:31 <kmc> I guess that's usually how these things work.
18:33:37 <int-e> fizzie: take a parachute
18:34:15 <fizzie> I think it's only something like a sixth floor, can you parachute-jump from that low?
18:34:46 <fizzie> Florence isn't known for it's skyscrapers, I believe.
18:36:21 <kmc> i walked to the top of some old church in florence
18:36:29 <kmc> but yeah it wasn't that high
18:37:25 <fizzie> There are like two "main" speech recognition conferences, and the other was in Florence in 2011, I was there too.
18:37:32 <fizzie> It's even pretty much the same conference center.
18:38:26 <fizzie> (Slightly different buildings on the other side of a street, from what I saw in a map.)
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19:10:27 <int-e> I guess this was bound to happen http://flappy2048.com/
19:11:43 <fizzie> That seems a lot easier to control than Flappy Bird.
19:12:48 <Slereah> The hitbox is very forgiving
19:13:16 <int-e> but then the walls start moving (and I stopped at 4096)
19:13:35 <fizzie> I stopped at 4096 too.
19:16:28 <fizzie> Well, I did 32768 too. The main trouble (for me) seems to be distinguishing between the boxes when the numbers get large.
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19:45:35 <kmc> looks like http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2014/02/x86-is-turing-complete-with-no-registers.html made it to /r/programming today
19:47:54 <fizzie> Do you get to see some sort of analytics thing on visitor counts or something?
19:48:38 <kmc> there's a basic one built into blogspot
19:48:45 <kmc> and i also have google analytics turned on, I think, but I never look at it
19:49:17 <kmc> (why caps?)
19:49:25 <fizzie> I don't know. Emphasis.
19:49:35 <fizzie> Did it make you feel like a rockstar programmer?
19:49:59 <kmc> no, I didn't even trash the last hotel room I stayed in for work
19:50:41 <kmc> Google Analytics seems to have a lot of stuff that would be useful if I was trying to make money from my blog
19:50:54 <kmc> not so much otherwise
19:51:13 <fizzie> How do people make money from blogs, anyway? Just ad revenue, or something else?
19:51:29 <kmc> another way is affiliate links
19:51:44 <kmc> if you review products and people click a link to amazon to buy them, you can get a cut
19:51:48 <fizzie> Oh, right, I've seen those.
19:52:15 <kmc> there was somebody who talked about editing amazon URLs in user comments to add the affiliate tag
19:52:18 <kmc> (automatically)
19:52:23 <kmc> which seems sleazy to me
19:52:57 <Bike> it's kind of sleazy but the links are actually due to your site, so
19:53:19 <fizzie> I think I've heard of some hotel/net cafe/wifi provider/something like that, who had a transparent proxy rewriting all links everywhere with the affiliate tag.
19:53:27 <fizzie> That's somewhat more sleazy.
19:53:45 <FreeFull> I've heard of an ISP doing that
19:54:04 <kmc> stupid future
19:54:16 <FreeFull> Definitely sleazy, and forbidden by Amazon
19:54:34 <FreeFull> The person who noticed contacted Amazon about it
19:56:35 <kmc> I got the idea for that blog post here, on November 5, while in a state of joyous intoxication
19:58:20 <kmc> worked out most of how to do it on a long flight (SFO-ICN)
20:05:00 <shachaf> kmc: did you see my link yesterday
20:06:37 <shachaf> i meant http://flint.cs.yale.edu/flint/publications/flex.pdf
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21:53:05 <fizzie> "SAMSUNG-SGH-E250/1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Browser/6.2.3.3.c.1.101 (GUI) MMP/2.0 (compatible; Googlebot-Mobile/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)" funny User-Agent, there.
21:53:26 <fizzie> Wonder if it's always the same, or if it randomly picks different "mobiley" UAs.
21:53:53 <fizzie> "Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 6_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/536.26 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0 Mobile/10A5376e Safari/8536.25 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)"
21:54:01 <fizzie> I guess that might answer it.
21:54:21 <fizzie> Oh, that's not even Googlebot-Mobile.
21:54:34 <fizzie> That some kind of an iGooglebot, then.
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22:26:10 <oerjan> @run 42 / 3 -- are you very slow today?
22:26:33 <oerjan> oh wait i was looking at the second field
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22:39:41 <idris-ircslave> (((1, 2), 3), 4) : (((Integer, Integer), Integer), Integer)
22:40:20 <ion> Ooh, that’s nice sugar.
22:40:46 <Jafet> Haskell tuples are actually a severe regression.
22:40:50 <int-e> # 1,2,3,4;; - : int * int * int * int = (1, 2, 3, 4)
22:40:50 <int-e> # (1,2),(3,4);; - : (int * int) * (int * int) = ((1, 2), (3, 4))
22:41:19 <oerjan> oh wait Melvar's fold didn't leave out the () in the printing
22:42:16 <oerjan> well ocaml is about the same as haskell there
22:42:28 <int-e> Well, I find that it looks weird. semantically it's not so different from Haskell's (,,,,) constructors.
22:42:41 <Jafet> applybot: raw:ML {* (((1,2),3),4) *}
22:42:41 <applybot> val it = (((1, 2), 3), 4): ((int * int) * int) * int
22:42:53 <Jafet> applybot: raw:ML {* (1,(2,(3,4))) *}
22:42:54 <applybot> val it = (1, (2, (3, 4))): int * (int * (int * int))
22:43:11 <Jafet> Hmm wait, I thought ML had this
22:43:26 <int-e> applybot: raw:ML {* 1,2,3,4 *}
22:43:36 <int-e> applybot: raw:ML {* (1,2,3,4) *}
22:43:46 <oerjan> well ocaml is an ml variant
22:43:59 <Jafet> I didn't want to let anyone else run arbitrary ML code.
22:43:59 <int-e> what does applybot speak?
22:44:06 <oerjan> so it stands to reason it'll have inherited much syntax
22:44:09 <int-e> Jafet: fair enough
22:44:21 <Jafet> applybot: term "((1, 2), 3)" -- isabelle
22:44:23 <applybot> ((1∷'a, 2∷'b), 3∷'c) ∷ "('a * 'b) * 'c"
22:44:32 <Jafet> applybot: term "(1, (2, 3))"
22:44:33 <applybot> (1∷'a, 2∷'b, 3∷'c) ∷ "'a * 'b * 'c"
22:44:50 <int-e> Interesting. (I've had some exposure to Isabelle)
22:45:01 <Jafet> Ok, so ML doesn't have inductive tuples.
22:45:24 <Jafet> applybot: raw:ML {* #4 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) *} -- it does have this though
22:45:24 <applybot> *** Outer syntax error: command expected,
22:45:38 <Jafet> applybot: raw:ML {* #4 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) *}
22:47:32 <lambdabot> (Field9 s t a b, Functor f) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
22:47:56 <int-e> lens is so painful with all that s t a b bing.
22:48:34 <oerjan> have you seen http://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/ yet
22:49:00 <oerjan> (click on picture to activate)
22:49:27 <Jafet> I remember there was an instance alpha-equivalent to b a c k s t a b
22:50:36 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
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22:51:07 <oerjan> now go make edwardk change it to s w a t twh
22:51:41 <int-e> hmm. s,t = source, target?
22:52:00 <oerjan> int-e: i can never remember which way the s t a b go without looking them up :(
22:52:09 * int-e still has to learn lenses.
22:52:12 <shachaf> int-e: It could mean so many different things!
22:52:21 <shachaf> or s could stand for state
22:52:33 <oerjan> hm source/target is mnemonic at least
22:53:17 <shachaf> > (`runState` ("a",2)) $ do { _2 += 5 } -- s is the state!
22:53:17 <idris-ircslave> (`runState` ("a",2)) $ do { _2 += 5 } -- s is the state!<EOF>
22:53:29 <shachaf> or s stands for "structure"
22:53:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel with 100‰ > bots | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:53:59 <shachaf> structure was the original one, state was what convinced edwardk, and source/target is a nice mnemonic now
22:54:04 <oerjan> shachaf: DON'T RUIN MY MNEMONIC AGAIN
22:55:37 <oerjan> i think i asked some time whether cokmett was statistically guaranteed to stop (i.e. probability 1) but i never got an answer beyond "check the code"
22:55:54 <int-e> hey, with all type variables in there you can make an fstab
22:56:11 <int-e> (Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t)
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22:57:18 <oerjan> shachaf: um btw if s is a state then you need s ~ t, no?
22:57:20 <Bicyclidine> "This gets rid of the SIXTY_FOUR_BIT_LONG, SIXTY_FOUR_BIT (not the same!), THIRTY_TWO_BIT, SIXTEEN_BIT and EIGHT_BIT defines."
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22:58:22 <oerjan> boily: chickening in again?
22:59:01 <shachaf> oerjan: unless you use... indexed state
22:59:17 <shachaf> which has nothing do with with indexed lenses, by the way
22:59:26 <int-e> @run sort "check in" == sort " chicken"
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23:00:00 <int-e> (curtesy of the internet anagram finder)
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23:03:23 <boily> I am... I feel... I don't know how to feel.
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23:09:00 <oerjan> hm reading the cokmett source is complicated by the fact the original haste isn't included in the github :(
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23:10:05 <boily> oerjan: cokmett, as in edwardk's caterogical dual?
23:10:32 <oerjan> oh right you joined after i pasted http://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/
23:11:29 <oerjan> (we were discussing lens again)
23:13:25 <int-e> but now we've lost focus
23:13:32 <boily> int-e...............................
23:14:26 <int-e> what, one of the humble weekly sales games is called "cthulhu saves the world" ...
23:14:28 <boily> also, this just in → http://ro-che.info/articles/2014-04-24-lens-unidiomatic.html
23:16:16 <Bicyclidine> int-e: i think i saw that one a couple months ago, it was basically an rpg parody
23:16:19 <elliott> Despite having some (fairly basic) understanding of what prisms are, this signature tells me nothing at all, even despite the usage of type synonyms.
23:16:31 <elliott> this is just contentless FUD.
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23:17:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/words
23:17:12 <Bicyclidine> the idea of programmers using actual empirical data for these things is lolarious imo
23:17:19 <elliott> that type signature is very simple and anyone who actually understands what a prism is and what Traversable is can understand it.
23:17:35 <elliott> he could have picked a way better example but it kinda illustrates how little of a point he has there.
23:17:40 <boily> I understand neither. Traversable still confuzzle my brain.
23:18:09 <Bicyclidine> "A Prism l is a 0-or-1 target Traversal that can also be turned around with remit to obtain a Getter in the opposite direction. " look, do people actually read these words and get information from them
23:18:23 <Bicyclidine> that's not to do with the blog, i just, god
23:18:28 <elliott> but then, I already knew the Haskell community was surprisingly regressive in so many ways.
23:18:57 <oerjan> oh right it's only `coins which has a default argument
23:18:59 <elliott> Bicyclidine: that's old documentation ("remit" doesn't exist now). https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.1.2/docs/Control-Lens-Prism.html
23:19:03 <elliott> (well, "remit" was renamed.)
23:19:27 <elliott> that sentence makes perfect sense to me but the rest of the docs beyond it are more useful.
23:19:29 <Bicyclidine> i mean, i have some idea of what prisms are because shachaf explained them once
23:19:46 <elliott> it's just leading with the formal definition and then trying to explain it
23:19:50 <elliott> I think you can argue both ways around have merits
23:20:25 <elliott> "traversal that you can invert to construct things with" isn't that elaborate a concept, though
23:21:51 <elliott> well, s/invert/turn around with re/
23:21:55 <int-e> boily: one of the main points of the lens library is that indeed, focus :: s -> (a, a -> s) does not exist as such; it's been abstracted away into a (possibily contravariant) functor.
23:22:01 <elliott> s/construct things with/obtain a Getter in the opposite direction/
23:22:31 <Bicyclidine> nooooo you're falling into the academicese pit again
23:22:33 <int-e> (but at least I understood 'focus' ...)
23:23:25 * int-e wonders whether he could persuade ekmett to rename 'lens' to 'unfocussed'.
23:24:04 <int-e> but I guess I'm taking the pun too far.
23:24:17 <Bicyclidine> also i just want to say that "i have to read the documentation" is a pretty rad complaint to have about something
23:24:40 <int-e> "unlike all other haskell packages out there"
23:24:42 <boily> int-e: egbhgehgheeeehghghghg.
23:25:10 <oerjan> int-e: well the other haskell packages don't _have_ documentation so they _must_ be understood just from the types hth
23:25:13 <int-e> boily: good job. "No anagrams found."
23:25:33 <int-e> oerjan: there is that, yes.
23:25:36 <Bicyclidine> the snooty "like some kind of RUBY programmer" thing is also great
23:26:56 <int-e> I agree with this sentiment, "This is why I regard lens as a language in its own."
23:28:16 <oerjan> some say lens has too many operators but i'm starting to wish basic haskell's operators were as logical
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23:28:50 <oerjan> (see my discussion of *> <$ <*> <$> etc. the other day)
23:29:32 <int-e> I want to have a look at lens-family
23:29:39 <elliott> int-e: yes, I think that's a reasonable statement. lens would be a reasonable thing to build into a language, and some of the glue it takes to put it into Haskell is a little ugly.
23:29:52 <elliott> but most of that post is nonsense
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23:30:06 <elliott> lens-family has subtly incompatible operators with lens I think :(
23:30:19 <elliott> plus it can't do prisms which are a very big deal
23:32:36 <int-e> type APrism s t a b = Overloaded Prismoid Mutator s t a b -- "If you see this in a signature for a function, the function is expecting a Prism, not some kind of alien invader."
23:33:02 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Traversable f, Applicative f1) => APrism' s a -> p (f a) (f1 (f a)) -> p (f s) (f1 (f s))
23:33:19 <oerjan> it hasn't precisely improved :P
23:33:26 <elliott> oerjan: no, that is just ghci
23:33:29 <elliott> it mangles type signatures
23:33:50 <elliott> it makes using lens more painful.
23:34:03 <elliott> it's something about it expanding out because of the -> I think.
23:34:15 <int-e> This is abstraction hell, looking at lens always feels like how I imagine learning math starting with category theory would be.
23:35:16 <int-e> (unless I ignore the types and use a tutorial instead. but that's contrary to how I usually approach haskell libraries. nonidiomatic indeed.)
23:35:32 <oerjan> elliott: perhaps it's because Prism' includes a forall and it gets to the right of a -> ?
23:36:12 <elliott> int-e: the types are mostly easy to follow except where edwardk made them needlessly complex if you learn the basic "lens theory" first. unfortunately I don't know of a good introduction to lens theory
23:36:27 <elliott> it's a case of having to understand the underlying semantic objects before being able to read the types
23:37:00 <oerjan> :t undefined :: Int -> Prism' Bool Char
23:37:01 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Applicative f) => Int -> p Char (f Char) -> p Bool (f Bool)
23:37:35 <oerjan> :t undefined :: Prism' Bool Char
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23:37:36 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Applicative f) => p Char (f Char) -> p Bool (f Bool)
23:37:59 <oerjan> hm seems the -> is not important
23:38:20 <oerjan> :t undefined :: Lens' Bool Char
23:38:21 <lambdabot> Functor f => (Char -> f Char) -> Bool -> f Bool
23:38:36 <lambdabot> Expecting two more arguments to ‘Lens Bool Char’
23:38:36 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘Lens Bool Char’ has kind ‘* -> * -> *’
23:38:36 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: Lens Bool Char
23:38:50 <oerjan> :t undefined :: Lens Bool Char Int Word8
23:38:51 <lambdabot> Functor f => (Int -> f Word8) -> Bool -> f Char
23:39:41 <oerjan> Lens' is an abbreviation for when you have a lens that doesn't change types, so they're pairwise the same
23:40:32 <lambdabot> (Profunctor p, Functor f) => (s -> a) -> (b -> t) -> p a (f b) -> p s (f t)
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23:41:15 <oerjan> that's an example of changing the type
23:41:45 <oerjan> :t let _ = (1,2)& l .~"hi"; l = _2 in l
23:41:46 <lambdabot> (Field2 s t a b, Functor f) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
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23:42:49 <oerjan> :t let l = _2 where _ = (1,2)& l .~"hi" in l
23:42:49 <lambdabot> (Num t1, Num t) => ASetter (t, t1) (t, [Char]) t1 [Char]
23:43:19 <oerjan> maybe not too instructive
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23:46:59 <int-e> also love the use of "intuitively" here: "Intuitively it is a bifunctor where the first argument is contravariant and the second argument is covariant."
23:47:19 <int-e> (from the documentation of Profunctor)
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23:53:12 <boily> (oh, a hat of spirit shield!)
23:57:49 <int-e> wth is "dungeon crawl stone soup"
23:58:50 <Bike> a videoed game
23:59:37 <int-e> Sorry, I should stop asking those "I'm going to google this, but first let me phrase it as a question" questions.