< 1399248636 860717 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399249097 112659 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1399249124 919473 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1399249637 389690 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungots fall on fungot falls < 1399249965 839460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :700 + 132 + 942 + 732d1 < 1399249966 5784 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: 700 + 132 + 942 + 732 => 2506 < 1399250004 856046 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+2 < 1399250007 660320 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+2d1 < 1399250007 807956 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: 1 + (1+1) => 3 < 1399250013 302486 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1399250042 595062 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1399250092 246605 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION screams «AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA» at fizzie for having unfungotted the channel
< 1399251350 422521 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1399251424 565630 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399251491 475102 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1399251500 80669 :Ghoul_!uid6924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-itzzzrvxmdxrwnan JOIN :#esoteric < 1399251766 935405 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: SAXOPHONIC CHICKEN < 1399253211 256497 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :~metar LIPB < 1399253606 567219 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1399254968 22420 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2+2+0d1 < 1399254974 970127 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2+2+1d0 < 1399254984 674435 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2+2+1d1 < 1399254984 821864 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexande: 2 + 2 + 1 => 5 < 1399255004 944694 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :3*5-1+1d1 < 1399255005 130201 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexande: 3 * 5 - 1 + 1 => 15 < 1399255697 523338 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :50d1 < 1399255697 670551 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 50 < 1399255706 21948 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :5d2 < 1399255706 169254 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 6 < 1399255709 188227 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yaaay < 1399255715 178724 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 PRIVMSG #esoteric :50d50 < 1399255715 326052 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 1291 < 1399255831 940408 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah < 1399257995 585786 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x1d1 < 1399258054 521611 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like a tagged union, correct? data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) < 1399258078 929609 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2**2d1 < 1399258085 307170 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2*2d1 < 1399258085 454816 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexande: 2 * (1+1) => 4 < 1399258095 79978 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^2d1 < 1399258096 9538 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: uhhuh < 1399258119 690774 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ttrpgs use exponentiation of random numbers? asking for a friend < 1399258146 207300 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: It can mean a empty list or a list consisting of a value and a list, so it is like a tagged union < 1399258148 670204 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d1*2 < 1399258148 817923 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexande: (1+1) * 2 => 4 < 1399258157 104187 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :do "Nil" and "Cons" have any meaning outside of the list? (are they even defined?) < 1399258159 419365 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d1^2 < 1399258166 876667 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: they're constructors. < 1399258172 764142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: Nil and Cons are constructors of the datatype called List. < 1399258213 98863 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Can you explain how you want to use exponentiation of random numbers? You can do 2 to the power of 1 to 6 if you use a backgammon doubling cube, perhaps. < 1399258229 368090 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really care how it's used, i just want to see how it is used < 1399258263 127651 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have added various things into the SQL such as a CREATE FUNCTION, CREATE COLLATION, CREATE MACRO, CREATE NAMESPACE, and the ability for trigger programs to contain SAVEPOINT, RELEASE, ROLLBACK TO, but still some missing thing such as traps, while-loops, overrides, etc < 1399258273 248124 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Well, I don't know. < 1399258689 221577 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella QUIT :Quit: It is tiem! < 1399258699 368907 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399258807 87958 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone in here familiar with JFLAP? < 1399258833 752795 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is. What is that? < 1399258877 343718 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a program for simulating various abstract machines ("Java Formal Languages and Automata Package"), including Turing machines, FSMs, PDAs, and a few others. < 1399258912 605608 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :partial differential assistant < 1399259110 280733 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1399259210 271975 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nah i've never used it. < 1399259564 803800 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. I'm wondering why the majority of my states in a 2-tape Turing machine are highlighted as nondeterministic. < 1399261892 137332 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399261924 424549 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399261985 315665 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1399262204 410419 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1399262414 465886 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pixelcomic.net/287.php < 1399262419 626259 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very "new", but it's new to me < 1399262839 466441 :Ghoul_!uid6924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-itzzzrvxmdxrwnan QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399262839 614279 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399262849 712464 :not^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1399262878 709289 :not^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399263031 632296 :Ghoul_!uid6924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-diwpkvmvmnhfqllz JOIN :#esoteric < 1399263378 573210 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used JFLAP. < 1399263391 281745 :pikhq!~pikhq@2602:100:18b2:fbfb:a60:6eff:fece:493 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399263444 906096 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was quite a long time ago, and I have to board a flight any minute now. < 1399264973 76085 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1399265025 911210 :not^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: http://i.imgur.com/DrFFzea.png < 1399265381 239003 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone give me two binary numbers likely to trip up an amateur's Turing machine that's supposed to add them. < 1399265518 111561 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399265545 454641 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :18, 2^32-1 < 1399265602 610685 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, one sec < 1399265629 79537 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then -1, 0 < 1399265640 632189 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta be non-negative. < 1399265745 348173 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that failed, when added in both orders < 1399265816 968158 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something's wrong with my carry state < 1399266920 160270 :password2!~password@197.78.141.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399268580 4156 :Zerker!~zerker@24-205-85-23.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1399269159 861441 :Zerker!~zerker@24-205-85-23.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes) < 1399269722 191782 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins < 1399269723 734070 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04uobcoin 07grailcoin 08durcoin 09calcoin 02rktureheading-bookcoin 06dividencoin 13omhncoin 04acicoin 07hunthenamecoin 08bestcoin 09refcoin 02orrhycoin 06bigcoin 13concoin 04omnisccoin 07mincoin 08origicoin 09anycoin 02penrcoin 06mushelmsiecoin < 1399269942 940212 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399270344 159199 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1399270690 637530 :MoALTz!~no@user-5-173-222-134.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1399270940 354550 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :concoin, describes all coins? < 1399270947 605568 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ok probably not really) < 1399271010 228784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a coinspiracy < 1399271035 203020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers he hasn't checked bitcoinity in a while
< 1399271075 736131 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks fairly stable for the last weeks < 1399271114 321781 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there's still that downward trend < 1399271230 353884 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1399272652 93083 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cairns < 1399272652 626012 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cairns: not found < 1399272709 682263 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins < 1399272711 183293 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​06bringcoin 13automailmentraunterating-boobuminuspicoin 04l00pcoin 07odbcocoin 08irifycoin 09cobincoin 02rociecoin 06capuracoin 13wikincoin 04elogycoin 07exconcoin 08thilcoin 09minuscoin 02tminarycoin 06nhohtcoin 13camolzcoin 04tagcoin 07kiplecoin 08x-dcoin 09quatcoin < 1399272719 947653 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice colorful coins < 1399272918 272244 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399273185 222434 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399273943 125267 :Tritonio!~Thunderbi@212.251.54.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399275590 501165 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399276361 145723 :lexande!arapp@terpsichore.ugcs.caltech.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have we had quinecoin yet? < 1399276875 591114 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently not < 1399276928 378837 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1399278684 446006 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1399278845 680461 :Ghoul_!uid6924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-diwpkvmvmnhfqllz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1399280081 56100 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1399280081 290948 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1399282727 290661 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone JOIN :#esoteric < 1399283089 349809 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1399283253 67088 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep < 1399284547 986942 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399284740 26897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist (951) < 1399284740 645048 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist (951): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti < 1399284815 334476 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachellof. < 1399285298 652782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1399285811 160163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was a survivor bias joke but people seem to think it's just an "in"flammable joke < 1399285929 102431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seemed to think that too < 1399286942 337876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1399287083 416226 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oobljehhshjawspy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1399287204 415457 :constant!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :trout < 1399287429 196687 :Tritonio!~Thunderbi@212.251.54.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1399288214 150582 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: RECAPITULATING CHICKEN < 1399289981 546622 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1399289994 449496 :nucular!~MOO@p4FF919AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1399289994 691109 :nucular!~MOO@p4FF919AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Changing host < 1399289994 838183 :nucular!~MOO@unaffiliated/nucular JOIN :#esoteric < 1399290002 568844 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1399290636 133907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1399291187 261665 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think it's "in"flammable joke too, < 1399291207 722768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1399291219 477637 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then most of the airship is made of wood and textile (also hydrogen if they're relaly unlucky), so most of it is inflammable < 1399291504 644283 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helium doesn't have the same lift and is expensive < 1399291568 404288 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399291808 207837 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan I can believe that 2-cell brainfuck is not TC; it seems that the halting problem is decidable for those, but it gets messy and I have no formal proof. What if we have 2 counters and a "landing field" that is always zero and cannot be modified (say, any attempt to do so would halt the program)? < 1399291808 772656 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1399291921 121348 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall that you need like 6 cells or so for TC brainfuck < 1399291965 487941 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :slereah: that's certainly too much < 1399291997 29816 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps < 1399292002 45436 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is just vague recollection < 1399292218 624183 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :3-cell can simulate 2-counter machines, which are undecidable < 1399292442 642048 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@37.152.203.231 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1399292462 398656 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@37.152.203.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399292486 842303 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess 4 cells are easy, 3 cells need work. < 1399292517 292070 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :3-cell is easy, 2-cell needs work < 1399292537 909892 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would not immediately rule out the possibility that 2-cell is undecidable) < 1399292683 610642 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: The problem is that only innermost loops can have unbounded values in both counters, and they cannot communicate with loops outside (they terminate because one of the counters is zero, and you cannot even use the position of the pointer because there's no way to check it.) < 1399293142 558961 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with 2 cells, any terminating inner loop takes (ma,b) to (0,b+na) < 1399293211 382386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1399293246 717401 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that it's not known what the exact lowest number of cells is that's enough < 1399293501 560320 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it may be possible to simulate fractran < 1399293874 556386 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :p/q ==> while(A) { if (A==1) { while(B) { A+=q, B-=p; } swap(A,B); } else if (A==2) ... else if (A==q-1) { ... } else A-=q, B+=p; } < 1399293950 288540 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That converts (A, 0) -> (0, pA/q) if q|A, otherwise (0, A) < 1399293992 174542 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try writing a two-cell oracle and seeing if there are any inputs that could possibly have it provide the wrong anwer < 1399293995 220189 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer* < 1399294014 686409 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there aren't any, you know it's not turing-complete < 1399294031 939760 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it will take a lot of seeing. < 1399294084 920491 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would have to find a way to cover all the cases < 1399294128 562468 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you even do fibbonacci with just two cells? < 1399294129 112359 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399294162 304080 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399294173 307265 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.eff.org/privacybadger < 1399294229 555135 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf >+<[.[->+<]>.[-<+>]] < 1399294255 342948 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`which bf < 1399294255 891355 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1399294262 726753 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :o kay < 1399294437 225646 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399294623 431676 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: I should really just null-route all ad networks < 1399294631 356399 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :~bf < 1399294634 34352 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf < 1399294634 205168 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399294645 72527 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done what? < 1399294830 327993 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has run the whole program < 1399294833 890848 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it might be hard to write the conditionals with no extra space. < 1399294839 659620 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf >+<[.[->+<]>.[-<+>]] < 1399294839 870390 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399294844 588730 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. < 1399294861 388733 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that won't produce any output < 1399294868 945411 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf >+[.[-<+>]>.[->+<]<] < 1399294869 91885 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399294874 657282 :Sorella!~queen@oftn/member/Sorella JOIN :#esoteric < 1399294878 66940 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf +[] < 1399294883 172090 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399294887 477826 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf ++++[>++++<-]>{<++++>-]<. < 1399294887 674758 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : bf: Ix{Int}.index: Index (-1) out of range ((0,15)) < 1399294893 984059 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf ++++[>++++<-]>{<++++>-]>. < 1399294894 131806 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : bf: Ix{Int}.index: Index (-1) out of range ((0,15)) < 1399294899 590692 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf ++++[>++++<-]>[<++++>-]>. < 1399294899 777940 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399294904 872625 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf ++++[>++++<-]>[<++++>-]<. < 1399294905 19761 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : @ < 1399294927 74958 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. two spaces, that's odd. < 1399294942 428156 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf +[.+] < 1399294942 578452 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghij... < 1399295045 45161 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf +[>+<+++]>. < 1399295045 192341 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : U < 1399295118 444409 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did +[] terminate? < 1399295130 565392 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot was done with it. < 1399295138 942921 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(duh) < 1399295144 26243 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it still just prints Done. even for infinite loops? < 1399295152 896247 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf .+[] < 1399295157 240007 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the brainfuck interpreter sets resource limiits < 1399295157 637907 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399295161 540757 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets killed, without output. < 1399295165 117979 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=.+[] < 1399295170 234486 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1399295174 479397 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :=?! < 1399295188 615443 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck+= < 1399295266 951493 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added the = accidentally < 1399295274 530543 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter since it gets ignored < 1399296719 338974 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1399296804 469647 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1399296842 240407 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bf >+++++++++[->+>++++<<]>[->.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+<] < 1399296842 432483 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : $%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmn... < 1399296917 578752 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e printf"%c",$_ for 32..127 < 1399296918 60843 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ < 1399297130 484645 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net NICK :Melvar < 1399297189 564286 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1399297208 598193 :nycs!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com NICK :`^_^v < 1399297437 254563 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1399297529 222022 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1399297823 396297 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1399298161 13988 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399299154 455075 :idris-ircslave!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1399299177 444887 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399299629 256670 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :"EOF is a controversial issue. Many implementations return 0, some return -1, and several notable brainfuck programmers [...]" whoa notability < 1399299715 589511 :yorick_!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1399299799 46456 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399300857 800524 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1399301017 795484 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notabliest < 1399301026 275681 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also what do those several ones return! < 1399301065 478947 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1399301245 276613 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399301610 84730 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1399301827 700851 :yorick_!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick NICK :yorick < 1399302381 720341 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399302648 265282 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399303651 793567 :nycs!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1399303893 981477 :`^_^v!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399304248 1188 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric : total heap usage: 666 allocs, 666 frees, 312,688 bytes allocated < 1399304251 542465 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: D: D: < 1399304517 790513 :password2!~password@197.78.141.153 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1399304524 161688 :nycs!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com NICK :`^_^v < 1399304702 258468 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the freelist of the beast < 1399304790 373851 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The things I had to do to plug those leaks~ < 1399304797 422617 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :First born son and all tat < 1399305151 784602 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399305405 830343 :tromp!~tromp@ool-4575eb51.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1399305502 981643 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ilfkonhgqrgvxywm JOIN :#esoteric < 1399305761 873196 :slereah!~slereah@46.218.232.202 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1399307241 969963 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-137-196.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1399307525 168989 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399307662 218627 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@37.152.203.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399307792 381980 :password2!~password@197.78.185.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399308152 767014 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399308369 458632 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm trying to either prove or disprove that the language {M where M is a Turing machine that, given blank input, will write a non-blank symbol somewhere} is decidable. Can't I just have a Turing machine B that halts if M writes a non-blank and loops if not? < 1399308454 571397 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but during the loop you might never know definitively that you can stop looping < 1399308569 304090 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that make the language I specified undecidable? < 1399308603 138505 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :decidable means total, so, your recognizer needs to halt on all inputs, no? < 1399308626 819252 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1399308655 45940 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your recognizer isn't going to halt on any M that doesn't halt and doesn't write a non-blank symbol < 1399308697 958113 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see. So the input M doesn't have to halt, it just has to write a non-blank symbol. < 1399308785 570488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it never writes a non-blank symbol then I would think an infinite loop is detectable? < 1399308799 97701 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can ignore the tape position) < 1399308832 858956 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1399308835 837820 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399309117 472046 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, zzo38? < 1399309291 590637 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo's saying that it's probably computable to see if a turing machine that never writes a non-blank symbol halts. < 1399309318 693555 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the number of states is finite then you can look for a loop in the state considering that the symbol is first at blank, that it leads to one you have been on before when the written symbol is also blank. < 1399309413 261660 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: So it's similar to solving the halting problem for FSMs? < 1399309486 84542 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :313.9 - 101.77 < 1399309490 56032 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, turing machines have "infinite states" because they can write all the symbols they want, but you're restricting that < 1399309491 58079 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :313.9 - 101.77d1 < 1399309505 229103 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget enough about strict during machines to remember if you can do something weird with blanks in unary, though < 1399309546 353227 :Slereah_!~jackal@bau91-h01-176-189-82-82.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1399309623 518213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is only one kind of blank symbol and the tape is infinite both ways then any tape position on a blank tape is the same as any other < 1399309649 241660 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it starts out all blank. < 1399309659 969989 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But it *might* write a non-blank symbol. < 1399309690 74981 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm trying to prove; whether the language of all Turing machines that write a non-blank symbol given blank input is decidable. < 1399309711 535233 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine you can look at all states to see which can write a non-blank symbol, and see if any of those are reachable from the starting state on a blank tape < 1399309743 306295 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but what if we loop forever with blank input? < 1399309769 821235 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you've found no non-blank writing you're just dealing with an FSM < 1399309784 134758 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Yes, that is what I meant. < 1399309982 817436 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then what happens if I have a Turing machine B that takes some M as input, and halts iff it runs M and then M writes a non-blank symbol? < 1399310064 493938 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think I get it. < 1399310169 848782 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual definition of L is L = { M where M is a Turing Machine which, when started with a blank input tape, will finally write some non-blank symbol on its tape.} Does that "finally" change anything? < 1399310282 721222 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning "eventually"? < 1399310330 277201 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other interpretation, though unlikely, is "in its last step".) < 1399310469 913519 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to assume that the professor just means it'll write a non-blank symbol at some point, as opposed to halting on a non-blank symbol. < 1399310480 935353 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that detail changes the answer. < 1399310482 38803 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I have other problems to do and this homework is due at midnight. < 1399310513 430499 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1399310522 975316 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it change the answer? < 1399310528 253400 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then what happens if I have a Turing machine B that takes some M as input, and halts iff it runs M and then M writes a non-blank symbol? <-- like i said, that's not sufficient. you could have the machine that writes nothing and doesn't move but doesn't halt. < 1399310530 112989 :Froox!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1399310584 526580 :b_jonas_!~x@152.66.83.24 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399310585 309126 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1399310599 694970 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my solution: < 1399310600 118396 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let L=\left\{ \string M|\mbox{\ensuremath{M} is a Turing machine that will write a non-blank symbol on its tape if the input is blank}\right\} < 1399310600 265337 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : . We will prove that L < 1399310600 265490 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : is decidable. Note that Turing machines have a finite number of states. Thus, they have a finite number of transitions of the form \delta\left(q,\square\right) < 1399310600 265627 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : . If, for a given M < 1399310602 104771 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : and q < 1399310604 115941 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : , we see \delta\left(q,\square\right) < 1399310606 117410 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : more than once before we write a non-blank symbol, then we know that M < 1399310609 131275 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : won't halt. So let's have a decider \decider L < 1399310610 122175 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : that takes some \string M < 1399310614 171856 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : as input and runs M < 1399310616 135070 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : on \varepsilon < 1399310618 158770 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : , and accepts if M < 1399310620 177046 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : writes a non-blank symbol and rejects if M < 1399310622 127407 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : is deduced to loop forever before writing a non-blank symbol. Hey, look, \decider L < 1399310624 158295 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists, thus L < 1399310624 962612 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real problem is this: a typical TM interpreter will put non-blank symbols on the tape. < 1399310626 136944 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : is decidable. \qed < 1399310628 159103 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1399310630 138263 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, shit < 1399310662 286653 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: yes, you shouldn't have pasted it here, but that looks about correct. < 1399310681 335029 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all the newlines that snuck in there. < 1399310705 718206 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: starting with blank input is part of the conditions, though < 1399310721 499137 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :... hmm. or not. I'm not sure what you're doing at "o let's have a decider \decider L". < 1399310805 616970 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: The TM degenerates to a finite automaton or a single counter machine (depending on whether you can test for the left tape end or not) if it can't write (non-blank symbols) to the tape. < 1399310863 274166 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1399310872 54595 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i'm not sure what you meant by "the real problem" < 1399310919 983436 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: at that point I was assuming that we wanted to show that L is undecidable by the usual diagonalization. I probably misread something. < 1399310930 543021 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1399310933 101142 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1399310978 951023 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does M *writing a non-blank then halting* change the answer? < 1399311022 831028 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: as I meant it it would allow M to also write non-blank symbols at other times, only the final write would count. < 1399311055 963462 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: OK, would that affect decidability, then? < 1399311072 679319 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, maybe it wouldn't. < 1399311100 6650 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it would. < 1399311110 516874 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: obviously. Just take any turing machine and make sure it writes a non-blank symbol in its halting state. < 1399311128 333133 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(introducing a new halting state in the process) < 1399311134 190514 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. If you wanna be pedantic, check the cells immediately to its left and right. < 1399311143 471371 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what happens if you don't halt? < 1399311155 395115 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there won't be a final step < 1399311175 718786 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence no non-blank symbol written in the final step < 1399311184 470635 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have to solve the halting problem, though, since now you're not limited to what's effectively an FSM. < 1399311195 989066 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1399311202 284618 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the point < 1399311238 731400 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@yell oerjan HI! < 1399311238 878750 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1399311315 458413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-LOUD < 1399311315 641483 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1399311361 79971 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: School labs/lunch < 1399311362 872380 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-yold < 1399311363 20065 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 5h 25m 54s ago: I can believe that 2-cell brainfuck is not TC; it seems that the halting problem is decidable for those, but it gets messy and I have no formal proof. What if we have 2 counters and a "landing field" that is always zero and cannot be modified (say, any attempt to do so would halt the program)? < 1399311363 167282 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 19m 23s ago: (Re: 2-cell brainfuck) I found the following refinement of the insight that loops terminate with zeros helpful: At each point outside of innermost loops, one of the counters is bounded by a constant. < 1399311363 167355 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 2m 4s ago: HI! < 1399311399 973965 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, problem 4 solved. 5 more to go. < 1399311419 789565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yold is past participle of yell, right? < 1399311544 407426 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye old < 1399311603 551535 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah yes. i recall thinking about that constant thing. except that it's almost decidable _exactly_ which constant. at least in some spots. < 1399311632 970668 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm trying to prove that you can simulate a 2-stack machine with a 4-counter machine (or vice versa). P2 is the 2-stack PDA and C4 is the 4-counter Lambek machine. This is my proof: http://i.imgur.com/aNDr8BE.png Any thoughts? < 1399311637 356488 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language of turing machines that halt and write some certain output at the same time is fairly obviously undecidable so your prof probably didn't mean that, but you might want to mention the ambiguity < 1399311652 517694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's some branching possible when you return to the beginning of a loop. < 1399311668 292345 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Yeah, I just went ahead and did that. < 1399311707 747488 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: c1 and c2 are stack pointers, c3 and c4 are godel-encoded stacks? makes sense to me. you might be able to reduce the time complexity by using a less dumb coding but you're just being asked about decidability, so < 1399311750 25664 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Strictly speaking, the problem is this: "Compare the running time (i.e., number of steps) of the following equivalent machines: (c) two-stack machine and a four-counter machine." < 1399311766 523341 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. that's an odd question. < 1399311794 44048 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I clarified it. He said to just describe what it would take to simulate one with the other. We're given that they're Turing-equivalent, at least. < 1399311803 732914 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well alright. < 1399311803 947360 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yeah, I had the professor clarify it. < 1399311815 645855 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a prefix coding or something for the stacks, then. don't need no stinkin primes. < 1399311839 130305 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prefix coding? < 1399311856 664435 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a code where no codeword is a prefix of another codeword < 1399311871 943316 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if your alphabet is AB, you could encode A -> 1, B -> 01, end of stack -> 00 < 1399311896 227434 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :really the prefix isn't necessary, you can just use a block code, eh. < 1399311942 959186 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1399311946 920628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure you can simulate two stacks with 3 counters pretty easily, without even gödel encoding, just base representation. < 1399311957 728952 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say A -> 11, B -> 01, end of stack -> 00, then it's obviously linear to get somewhere on the stack. < 1399311972 679915 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the two stacks can share their "temporary" storage counter < 1399311981 83844 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and increment and decrement of the stack pointer are just increment and decrement. < 1399311994 732468 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about godel coding is that it makes sense mathematically but it's really fucking dumb practically speaking :V < 1399312020 367400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with gödel encoding you only need 2 counters, of course. < 1399312039 841942 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd use Godel encoding for simulating 2 counters with 2 stacks (or vice versa)? < 1399312099 37520 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a stack doesn't need a pointer. you just pop off the top hth < 1399312112 200988 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: What if the stacks have more than one unique symbol each? < 1399312114 298980 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. uh. right < 1399312125 86333 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i gave you two RAMs then < 1399312130 576129 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: what? < 1399312136 667524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, with 2 stacks you just use them as a turing tape, and use something simpler than gödel. < 1399312145 854939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, interleaved binary < 1399312192 551895 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prime number stuff is really only needed to get down to 2 counters. < 1399312195 545944 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: apparently there is a separate input stream. < 1399312212 858972 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's how we arrived at 4 counters yesterday. < 1399312220 657636 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1399312232 805098 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then. < 1399312239 843766 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave a second counter for the input because, well, the counters themselves give input. < 1399312252 230285 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where else would I encode the input to the 2-stack PDA? < 1399312256 513675 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I agree with 3 of course. < 1399312267 249193 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: initial contents of one of the stacks < 1399312295 281003 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :welp it's official, never not going to read PDA as PDE < 1399312306 742136 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I can do that? < 1399312323 592923 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do anything, if only you believe in yourself < 1399312324 541604 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: it depends on your definitions, obviously. < 1399312434 87226 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So let's go back to 2 stacks, 2 counters. I can simulate the counters with stacks easily, just have an alphabet of two symbols, and push one symbol only to c1, and one symbol only to c2. I could Godel-encode the input as a really big monosymbol stack. But what about the jump-if-zero instruction? < 1399312457 36637 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I seem to recall that you need like 6 cells or so for TC brainfuck <-- SOME OF US HAVE MADE LATER PROGRESS HTH < 1399312475 741822 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^wiki Collatz_function < 1399312486 200697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie!!!!! < 1399312505 910439 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function < 1399312650 735408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: jump-if-zero becomes jump-if-stack-empty? i don't see the problem... < 1399312695 186477 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have stack-empty testing, add a special bottom symbol, i guess. < 1399312770 961309 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait do you need different symbols for c1 and c2, anyhow < 1399312795 315212 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, but where do I jump to? < 1399312805 835385 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, wait, this becomes the problem of the states, not the stack. < 1399312835 875091 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you have nearly the same underlying FSA in both cases, i should think < 1399312848 678996 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a little different interpretation of what the transitions mean < 1399312911 94969 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that makes sense. < 1399312930 114809 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each instruction in a CM roughly corresponds to a state in a FSM? < 1399312978 509069 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Jafet: simulating fractran is precisely what that link does for 3-cell bf. < 1399312989 209591 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case any of you haven't seen it yet. < 1399313011 82557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm Jafet seems idle < 1399313062 743272 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BlueProtoman: yeah. < 1399313104 513593 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. Thanks. Three problems to go. < 1399313105 37168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a matter of representation whether you write things down as something assembly like or as a big table of state transitions + commands. < 1399313141 301395 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course your professor presumably has chosen one such representation for you. < 1399313149 197467 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So assembly is closer to CS-theoretic abstract machines than, say, Java? < 1399313162 195154 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the assembly :P < 1399313175 849234 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always vax's eval poly instruction < 1399313196 176316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUBLEQ assembly is pretty darn abstract < 1399313275 882082 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Jafet simulating fractran is precisely what http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function does for 3-cell bf. < 1399313276 29326 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1399313368 667170 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Jafet and it took some munging to get that to fit. i don't think 2-cell can work. < 1399313368 853495 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1399313662 982138 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Jafet note that your if ... else if construction can easily require 4 cells if you are not very careful. (and swap needs 3 anyway.) < 1399313663 169610 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1399314742 766093 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1399314761 193175 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No 'got? < 1399314873 341562 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1399314891 660615 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a bit hard with only a tablet thing. < 1399314901 648530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm at a conference, I only took this thing with me.) < 1399314914 151394 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello from Florence, Italy, anyway. < 1399315000 974389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buona sera! < 1399315052 654344 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a bottle of olive oil in the conference bag. < 1399315103 187211 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :smooth < 1399315412 151590 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1399315419 895195 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-51-179.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399315444 19931 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I am going to use the Haskell FFI! < 1399315525 845880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally you get the chance to make ghc segfault! < 1399315535 778009 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I've done that already. < 1399315545 287467 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You remember my factorial calculator? < 1399315555 51462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1399315569 277703 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one written in pure, (<*>), and unsafeCoerce? < 1399315578 270367 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1399315589 678061 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafeCoerce? < 1399315604 24589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafeCoerce does tend to be risky < 1399315604 864504 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm oddly curious how that works out < 1399315674 761555 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I'm done! foreign import ccall "math.h sin" csin :: CDouble -> CDouble < 1399315681 293570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: iirc Taneb used it as I in ski calculus, because haskell cannot type the usual tricks used for recursion in ski calculus but unsafeCoerce brutally circumvents the typing < 1399315692 189524 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's right < 1399315702 218998 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure is K and (<*>) is S btw < 1399315704 233762 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was incredibly slow, and only worked up to 11 < 1399315709 770173 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that it crashed < 1399315717 945408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1399315737 996990 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafeCoerce is I < 1399315753 308811 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1399315771 13349 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that was already said. Should have looked at more than the last four lines. < 1399315779 180560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES YOU SHOULD < 1399315813 110113 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH, YOU AGREE? < 1399315841 802757 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hm, i don't think you can actually cause a segfault _purely_ with those three, can you? < 1399315857 90250 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did when I was working it out < 1399315873 872319 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, when I had got it wrong < 1399315878 444080 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there would always be corresponding to a lambda term < 1399315882 977306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1399315919 780881 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you applied it to something to get numbers didn't you, at that point things can go wrong < 1399315946 580932 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still doesn't know whether one can implement unsafePerformIO with unsafeCoerce and IO's (>>=) in a way that works across platforms and in conjunction with garbage collection
< 1399316004 479589 :SerialDreamer!~Sumpherie@voi38-3-78-233-200-57.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399316026 201091 :SerialDreamer!~Sumpherie@voi38-3-78-233-200-57.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1399316039 653802 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!welcome SerialDreamer < 1399316041 858494 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :SerialDreamer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1399316051 433338 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are monads needed for IO? < 1399316053 541693 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the handling of the realWorld# token is slightly magical) < 1399316064 184441 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: that's a myth. < 1399316072 862071 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not needed, they just make it easier < 1399316081 636955 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: the monadic IO interface is just convenient < 1399316087 153124 :SerialDreamer!~Sumpherie@voi38-3-78-233-200-57.fbx.proxad.net PART :#esoteric < 1399316093 170241 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: it's just the most convenient pattern to enforce ordering of side effects < 1399316133 250844 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :the diff is like printf(file, "str") vs cout << "hello " << there ? < 1399316142 942360 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :cout << being the monandic version < 1399316173 748289 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to say "wat" but i'm not _entirely_ sure that analogy is nonsense. < 1399316208 630052 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty nonsense < 1399316209 598544 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that would be more akin to >>= etc vs. do-notation < 1399316243 628322 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well from what i read monad is like a transformation on a value, ofstream's << doesnt transform the ofstream, but it does return it to allow chaining < 1399316262 633447 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's half a state monad then < 1399316265 86751 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just remembered that if make a burrito joke i will be banned < 1399316266 662779 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it misses the return value. < 1399316287 691989 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: oh?! < 1399316318 362785 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Does this apply to just you or is that a general rule? < 1399316326 296851 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell confuses me so much. im pretty sure its either a big inside joke _or_ haskellers just love self-flagellation < 1399316337 335296 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1399316337 380191 NAMES :#esoteric < 1399316341 665801 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it confuses you? < 1399316383 165874 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, let's test < 1399316397 8576 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: if this is about monads, forget that you ever heard the term and simply use 'do' notation for doing I/O. that should get you pretty far. < 1399316426 729999 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can functions only take one argument? whats the deal with returning functions to get around this, surely there is overhead in creating closures < 1399316455 510361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: ghc doesn't allocate closures if a function is fully applied < 1399316465 951050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tries to be reasonably smart about this. < 1399316483 245315 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: ah but we like to think of it differently. a function takes n arguments, but we can apply it partially, giving only 1,..., up to n of the arguments and leaving the rest for later. < 1399316500 747112 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: and indeed ghc also implements it that way. < 1399316507 273680 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO is like a burrito. an IO Int is a burrito full of delicious ints, but we can't eat it "until the haskell program has been reduced", which in the metaphor means who cares. sometimes you want to mash up two burritos, like an IO Int and an IO String, to get you something that lets you eat an int first and then a string. it also so happens that this mashup operation is nice to generalize to other foods, so, we package up these ... < 1399316513 327389 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... operations in an API and call it "monad" because we hate leibniz but love burritos < 1399316535 118972 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: this would explain why ghc is so ... large. < 1399316543 765028 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric Bike :You forgot the jalapeños < 1399316549 23397 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1399316549 35750 NAMES :#esoteric < 1399316554 457365 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1399316563 643306 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really should have eatne lunch before putting that together < 1399316593 719101 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then maybe you wouldn't've forgotten the jalapeños < 1399316634 588989 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not gonna eat some fucking shitass pepper < 1399316731 652127 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1399316742 348740 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like more of a badge of honor than a useful thing < 1399316807 42611 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the Haskell cabal. < 1399316811 79278 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, i don't even use haskell and i can see why you'd generalize this. it's basic design principles. < 1399316847 381506 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*that*'s an inside joke. A weak one, but still.) < 1399316866 331808 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there is no cabal. < 1399316878 202724 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Cabal then. And cabal-install. < 1399316884 420776 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's an extremely _old_ inside joke) < 1399316887 77930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, remember that one story by heinlein < 1399316899 665235 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I may be too young for it. < 1399316903 671822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If This Goes On—" < 1399316917 364390 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it goes back to the Usenet age. < 1399316933 226769 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is that? i remember the title < 1399316939 300803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one with the cabal < 1399316948 169248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a prophet or something < 1399316986 871187 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ah. I remember usenet, but I wasn't very active there (and really only in its german subpart anyway, where TINC wouldn't make much sense. (I found a wikipedia page on the subject)) < 1399317006 796505 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like i never read it < 1399317013 382471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :TINC. HTH. HAND. < 1399317047 123970 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should know better and write "Usenet" and "subhierarchy".
< 1399317056 730113 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. < 1399317077 642788 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: Haskell supports a single tuple of arguments just fine, but it's pretty convenient to be able to apply a function partially without jumping through hoops. < 1399317110 32666 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which currying enables < 1399317214 561598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does jalapeñoing enable, i wonder. < 1399317246 144282 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python: map(lambda ys: map(f, ys), xs). Haskell: map (map f) xs < 1399317373 198052 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, does python not have apply < 1399317382 200107 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, haskell supports tuples with more than two elements rather awkwardly. < 1399317426 386492 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly by design, to discourage using them as ersatz datatypes. < 1399317431 95797 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cos (define (curry f x) (lambda (ys) (apply f (list* x ys)))) and then (map (curry map f) xs) < 1399317449 403295 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you can call that a hoop but it's not much of one. < 1399317459 562678 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :the page i read about haskell tuples looked like its very flimsy, in a tuple of 2 (_ x _) matches the second item, without an error? what if you tried (_ _ x), would it just fail to match? < 1399317477 633183 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/flimsy/forgiving/ < 1399317494 808122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: you've missed the commas < 1399317506 678260 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1399317510 170273 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was drunk too < 1399317510 319097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it would match the third item < 1399317529 26348 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a tuple of 2"? < 1399317530 276945 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there is no third item in (1,2) < 1399317541 664309 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(_, x, _) wouldn't match (1,2) I'm pretty sure < 1399317543 76129 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\(_,x,_) -> x) (3,4,5) < 1399317544 565634 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4 < 1399317549 932800 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1399317553 512441 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because they have different types < 1399317553 659860 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, wait, duh. < 1399317554 656435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fowl: in that case neither would match, the pattern needs to have the same number of commas < 1399317556 278209 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\(_,x,_) -> x) (3,4) < 1399317557 392503 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type ‘(t0, t, t1)’ < 1399317557 540169 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : with actual type ‘(t2, t3)’ < 1399317559 325621 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1399317560 408953 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let (_, x, _) = ("compile", "error") in x < 1399317561 645151 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type ‘(t0, t2, t1)’ < 1399317561 798679 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : with actual type ‘([GHC.Types.Char], [GHC.Types.Char])’ < 1399317561 798751 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Relevant bindings include x :: t2 (bound at :1:9) < 1399317568 514095 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see if i can find the page i was reading < 1399317665 705884 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.fpcomplete.com/school/to-infinity-and-beyond/pick-of-the-week/Simple%20examples#tuples < 1399317695 776393 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that uses fst and snd for the 2-tuple, not the first and second it defines < 1399317704 324507 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see that now >_> < 1399317718 756912 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-17-246.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1399317721 211478 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was drunk < 1399317724 510967 :fowl!~fowl@unaffiliated/fowlmouth PRIVMSG #esoteric :last night <)< < 1399317736 415963 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1399317739 583555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah fpcomplete is so heavy < 1399317801 250561 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hah, i just noticed the same thing when opening the link with my phone. < 1399317810 836325 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly there should be a ThingYouCanTakeFirstOf typeclass with instances for (,) and (,,) < 1399317837 837609 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a library for that < 1399317843 558416 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1399317856 333694 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1,2,3) ^. _1 < 1399317857 841591 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1399317934 854722 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say I have a Turing machine that can only write to a given cell once (including the part of the tape the input's on). I want to prove that this is still Turing-equivalent. If the input is w, and I write to, say, the 2nd cell, next time I want to write to it can I go to the |w| + 2nd cell instead, and the time after that the 2*|w| + 2nd cell, etc.? < 1399318007 931157 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives you a working area limited to the size of the input, no? < 1399318039 971961 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The browser tab gets stuck for over a minute when loading that page. < 1399318040 119037 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, true... < 1399318113 896484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: yeah and then i have to press return in the address line for it to relocate to the actual anchor which has been completely shifted away by all the expanding stuff < 1399318118 330383 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sorcery is ^. < 1399318120 720012 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike: IIRC Idris has sugar where (x, y, z) = (x, (y, z)). That seems nice to me. < 1399318131 607251 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: lens < 1399318190 63164 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: What if every time I write in cell n, I splice in another tape (thus pushing every non-blank symbol to the right one cell, starting from the left; i.e. XXX -> X_XX -> X_X_X) < 1399318221 66619 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna go see if i can't find a burrito to eat < 1399318249 4542 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why stop there, eat a whole burro < 1399318270 55013 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel a monad joke coming. < 1399318277 613636 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hm, no, that's writing more than once... < 1399318329 422666 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mo 'nads mo problems < 1399318525 503482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: do you still eat burritos every day < 1399318618 261624 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1399318679 4851 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1399318692 331329 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also feliz cinco de mayo everyone < 1399318759 155741 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe JOIN :#esoteric < 1399319198 524254 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad news i had pizza < 1399319209 226664 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone explain how lenses are like pizza < 1399319279 843186 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well both are round < 1399319300 263046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think lenses hit your eye in a similar fashion to a big pizza pie, or something along those lines < 1399319304 144922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i've got it wrong < 1399319311 152044 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had too much of them both yesterday < 1399319316 667642 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :void nsHtml5TreeBuilder::MaybeComplainAboutCharset(...) < 1399319362 778990 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :420 complain about charset everyday < 1399319378 675426 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i only had a few slices, not the whole round < 1399319391 100553 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's increasingly clear that I don't know enough C to use Haskell's FFI < 1399319394 511814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: the slices you ate are like a lens from the whole pizza < 1399319397 95562 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a traversal < 1399319405 939095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a fold. did you fold your pizza. < 1399319412 405406 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I folded my pizza < 1399319424 870212 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I had two slices at once < 1399319432 844213 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is the parallel of a prism in this analogue? < 1399319445 630609 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lasagne < 1399319451 607543 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1399319452 900087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :your puns needs some review. < 1399319456 339798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-s < 1399319465 613097 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone JOIN :#esoteric < 1399319690 679091 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are your FFI troubles Taneb? < 1399319734 826164 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1399319758 940878 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, basically, I don't know C < 1399319803 977910 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://animalnewyork.com/2014/artists-notebook-ramsey-nasser/ this is neat < 1399319811 360353 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1399319814 978770 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing C considered useful < 1399319904 762966 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about something I wanted to do, and thought "this would actually be easier with pointers and mutability" < 1399319920 378912 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Already written a good deal of the program in Haskell and don't want to rewrite it < 1399319990 164957 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But like, if I implement this queue as a doubly-linked-list I can remove things from the middle really easily < 1399319990 372833 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should learn to actually *use* Haskell for something < 1399320008 955464 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove the four color conjecture with the type system < 1399320045 971473 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399320049 184908 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/Taneb/webqueues/blob/master/Main.hs is the code I've written so far < 1399320087 45506 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :getUUID is poorly named and documented < 1399320130 257378 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could make it ContT () ActionM UUID < 1399320161 493657 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that'd make everything else awkward? < 1399320215 263078 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :define TanebUUIDThing = ContT () ActionM, problem solved < 1399320225 264055 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1399320308 170345 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :getAction doesn't get an action but rather is the action to be performed on a GET request < 1399320752 40854 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm heading out < 1399320821 195904 :b_jonas_!~x@152.66.83.24 NICK :b_jonas < 1399321053 768312 :`^_^v!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1399321161 544492 :password2!~password@197.78.185.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399321198 528226 :nycs!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1399321205 233560 :nycs!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com NICK :`^_^v < 1399322040 829814 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm Rust sort of has an overloadable assignment operator now: http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/std/clone/trait.Clone.html#method.clone_from < 1399322049 239646 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bot not really < 1399322131 714469 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@unaffiliated/mindlessdrone QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1399322282 973262 :nucular!~MOO@unaffiliated/nucular QUIT :Quit: Excess Food < 1399322353 678518 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say I have a language L = {M is a Turing machine that halts on all words w in L(aa*)}, and I need to prove that it's undecidable. Can't I just define a Turing machine T that takes in another Turing machine H, and H's input h, and halts if H doesn't halt and stops if H does? < 1399322379 925337 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-17-246.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399322427 590900 :ter2!~tertu@143.44.70.199 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399323102 483051 :Slereah!~jackal@bau91-h01-176-189-82-82.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1399323302 349764 :Slereah_!~jackal@bau91-h01-176-189-82-82.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1399323705 37645 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1399324095 791057 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1399324095 938187 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1399324226 144436 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399324836 915672 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1399325034 722472 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1399325044 70587 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Tanelle. are you asleep? < 1399325556 962211 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1399325934 332038 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399326016 940578 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: all that's left is to desugar = into clone_from calls? < 1399326035 795710 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Narght < 1399326281 574001 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@37.152.203.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1399326374 282048 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1399326517 153223 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think that will never happen, though, thankfully < 1399326538 100285 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean we don't insert implicit clone() calls anyway < 1399326546 656222 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only POD can be implicitly copied < 1399326601 971225 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399326783 333219 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1399326802 461270 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird, my toy program in rust went fairly well and I thought rust was great, but now I'm trying to do something real (porting the microkernel I was working on) and rust is complaining a lot about my code and nothing works < 1399326829 589998 :`^_^v!~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1399327019 194769 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's great that function-sections etc is working in rust now, I read an old thread that implied it would never ever be supported in rust for silly reasons < 1399327188 498653 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's nice < 1399327379 437361 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, with LTO I think it's theoretically possible to get better results in a single section < 1399327815 533986 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and I found a way to optimize away the stack checks - I just sed 's/ "split-stack"//' on the LLVM output < 1399328232 928139 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1399328610 209327 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0/20140421221237] < 1399328851 78862 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :take refuge in clean living < 1399328870 293018 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omfg I finally got firefox running right again. < 1399328933 961754 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took me embarassingly long to remember that a cranky firefox should be started in safe mode first. < 1399328982 900403 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm losing it < 1399329012 915359 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was looking at the latest Onion cartoon, and wondering why the turtle (tortoise?) was saying a hand. Turned out to be my cursor < 1399329054 373997 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying a hand? < 1399329111 846974 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a speech bubble, and I thought there was a pointing hand in it < 1399329148 310936 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :which finger was the hand pointing? < 1399329379 609277 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Index < 1399329444 47356 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: is kmc in #rust also you? < 1399329498 560816 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1399329695 961038 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why he wouldn't be < 1399329706 181966 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is the only true kmc < 1399329713 843234 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins < 1399329715 320208 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​06catinecoin 13equaicoin 04chanocoin 07cabracoin 08licecoin 09pringcoin 02blocoin 06.coin 13parereacoin 04jumacoin 07zubanquixcoin 08sqirrisingcoin 09cripplithcoin 02bankingperlcoin 06rposiscoin 13liecoin 04wikacoin 07cuccoin 08ted!coin 09oraocumcoin < 1399329730 395565 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are some good coins < 1399329742 165306 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially licecoin and liecoin < 1399329767 710350 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :bankingperlcoin might be the best < 1399329952 148239 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dark blue is hard to read on black < 1399329975 923251 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's light blue here < 1399330294 897206 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not here < 1399330302 329506 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is cuccoin hinting at Cukoo Cycle for proof-of-work? < 1399330313 825324 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cuckoo Cycle i mean < 1399330337 889934 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins --german 20 < 1399330339 148899 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04afsignalcoin 07parzrhythmecoin 08repartungcoin 09vorschromgebotstrecoin 02bilderlandcoin 06erenblatcoin 13kursabsetzcoin 04pensivocoin 07bammenhanencoin 08lacederbandecoin 09panomeräthemincoin 02modecoin 06bayentgedrincoin 13theitercoin 04reitsdiencoin 07herungsordnungcoin 08mannzungcoin 09seitcoin 02allycoin 06ingesorgeco < 1399330374 947702 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ingesorgeco? < 1399330377 102354 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-127-187.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :german words are too long, it got cut off < 1399330388 30953 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn german < 1399330413 774003 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, I was at the pub < 1399330433 852581 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should go so I have time to sleep before I get up < 1399330865 201926 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: same thing. < 1399331022 793616 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure I was awake < 1399331233 944979 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1399331267 57006 :BlueProtoman!~smitty@ool-457b5eca.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1399331369 65040 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins --polish 10 < 1399331370 89902 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09sankizowałybycoin 02fularomowiłbycoin 06uszegijskiewrcoin 13ukowacoin 04nieopadorszczcoin 07lokatnowymcoin 08obnychizującacoin 09reptyczamicoin 02uczarżanecoin 06przeczkocoin < 1399331384 424964 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins --finnish 10 < 1399331385 288162 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04suomallansacoin 07huonomillännecoin 08säilemilleecoin 09hillannecoin 02yltymännecoin 06käsicoin 13putoimastacoin 04osuvaltammecoin 07heijailläcoin 08miekkaltanicoin < 1399331704 518128 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-186-068.pools.arcor-ip.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`coins --lojban 10 < 1399331705 401467 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown option: lojban < 1399331843 414985 :MoALTz_!~no@user-46-113-137-196.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1399331941 642733 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, did you want to ask me something? < 1399331991 968208 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-137-196.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1399332298 835237 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: not "ask" anything. I just wanted to say that I slept during the day to an Idiosyncratic Schedule Sleep Expert. < 1399332441 762410 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooooh < 1399332445 595097 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds fancy < 1399332536 619750 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1399333949 556539 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.