00:00:01 <boily> fungot: your momma's a random factoid.
00:00:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hashes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39481&oldid=35043 * 93.115.84.195 * (+0) /* example */
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01:07:23 <kmc> @ask boily what's the deal with your quit messages?
01:09:48 <kmc> compiled for your viewing pleasure https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/67b3ffb982fa31eb9b65
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01:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Gs30ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39482&oldid=20546 * Gs30ng * (+499) Reply to Chris Pressey
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04:21:01 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
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07:23:17 <oerjan> <kmc> compiled for your viewing pleasure https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/67b3ffb982fa31eb9b65 <-- a view into the mind of a Very Sane Man. sadly not chronological.
07:25:35 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/EYT9clp.png finally
07:27:07 <myname> am i the only one who feels weird about an erotic shop doing a mother's day lottery?
07:27:36 <kmc> probably not
07:28:36 <kmc> is it MILF day
07:29:50 <kmc> shachaf: doubtful
07:34:23 <Bike> it's V-E Day, in moscow anyway
07:36:55 <kmc> privet tovarish
07:37:41 <HackEgo> aubercoin rnassingcoin intfull+coin ockcoin kipplexcoin shacccccccoin bdacoin stackcoin splcoin oortecoin snuskelloucoin emiacoin genheaperumcoin bogkcoin rvelyardshinrcoin traincoin poinecoin arbazocoin wallcoin alpotcoin
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07:41:15 <ion> FTL in hard mode without pausing http://www.twitch.tv/lethalfrag
07:56:34 <Bike> as stealth, lol
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08:57:49 <kmc> today I passed a grocery store which displayed the slogans "My Mouth Can Make Sounds But These Sounds Are Not Words" and "Every Vegetable Is A Word"
08:58:42 <oerjan> I Have No Mouth But I Need My Veggies
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11:32:39 <Taneb> I wonder if there's anyone other than me whose first programming language was esoteric
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11:39:35 <mroman_> https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/898b104158d
11:39:59 <mroman_> "This kind of compression inevitably discards information. "
11:40:16 <mroman_> "4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 18, 20, 24…. This is an infinite series defined as: odd primes plus 1."
11:40:41 <mroman_> I don't see how 4,6,8 => odd primes + 1 is a lossy compression
11:44:30 <Taneb> mroman_, was the first programming language you learned esoteric?
11:46:14 <mroman_> Taneb: http://www.clonk.de/docs/en/sdk/script/index.html
11:46:22 <mroman_> ^- that was the first programming language I learned
11:47:19 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
11:47:41 <mroman_> It's a scripting language for a 2D-Game
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11:48:07 <mroman_> which allowed players to create own stuff for it
11:48:09 <Taneb> Seriously, if I hadn't seen that language my life would be very different right now
11:49:17 <Taneb> I don't know, probably worse
11:49:24 <Taneb> Wouldn't have met you
11:49:36 <Taneb> Or like most of the people I know
11:50:04 <Taneb> Well, that's not quite true
11:50:19 <Taneb> I found Piet via Irregular Webcomic
11:50:33 <Taneb> If I hadn't read that I wouldn't have met most of the people I know
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12:00:45 <nooodl> my whole internet experience sorta cascaded down from a single seed too. i guess dosgames.com! i wonder what life would've been like had i picked another one
12:05:00 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what all the seeds were for me. I'm quite sure I found perlmonks early, and that stickmanstickman (now at "http://stickman.qntm.org/index.php") was the first webcomic I read,
12:06:26 <nortti> my seed was ohjelmointiputka.net, which I first used by printing some of the qbasic code snippets out so I could type those in on my computer (which lacked internet)
12:11:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the first esoteric programming language was that I've heared of. Could have been either intercal or unlambda.
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13:04:12 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it was Befunge that was the first esolang I came across, but I have no recollection where.
13:04:39 <fizzie> fungot: Think of it, if that hadn't happened, you might not exist!
13:04:40 <fungot> fizzie: speaking of which i can't upload from work _) are done only after beating the other guy
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15:21:07 <FireFly> The esolang I first came across was either Brainfuck och Argh!
15:22:48 <FireFly> Probably the former, although I think the first I wrote a program in is the latter
15:23:02 <Melvar> For me, I think it was probably Brainfuck or INTERCAL.
15:23:32 <FireFly> Too much language context-switching, I suppose
15:23:59 <nortti> for me it was definitely brainfuck first, then either befunge 98 or Lazy K
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15:24:43 <nortti> iirc I found the wiki through befunge, so it probably was second
15:25:22 <mroman_> I'm founding the Esoteric Standard Committee (ESOSC). Who's in? :P
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15:26:46 <FireFly> Congrats, ESC is all over the news already
15:27:31 <Taneb> Eurovision song contest final tomorrow night!
15:36:04 <Taneb> mroman_, can we create a "normalized brainfuck" standard?
15:36:40 <nortti> mroman_: what sort of standards?
15:39:49 <mroman_> Taneb, nortti: Some standardized brainfuck
15:40:29 <mroman_> and wrap-around for cells, tape etc.
15:40:29 <fizzie> That does not sound like a real standards body. You need a lot more bureaucracy. Working groups and so on.
15:40:59 <mroman_> you guys are working groups, right?
15:41:05 <Taneb> mroman_, I'd say normalized brainfuck for ease of interpretation
15:41:10 <Taneb> ie, no comments/whitespace
15:41:15 <nortti> 8bit cells, wrap-around, eof-is-0?
15:41:32 <Taneb> Maybe we can make a number of brainfuck standards!
15:42:07 <mroman_> ESOSC 2014-2 requires for a normalized bf programm to only contain chars [.,+-><]?
15:42:20 <mroman_> and everything else isn't ESOSC conform
15:42:47 <Taneb> Doesn't conform to ESOSC 2014-2 "Normalized brainfuck (nbf)"
15:43:08 <Taneb> Perhaps we also need to define the semantics of the language
15:44:02 <nortti> also, what happens to newlines in envs where newline is not 0x10
15:44:03 <mroman_> all that's left to do is finding someone who can draw a fancy logo
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15:47:55 <nortti> mroman_: you can count me in
15:48:09 <b_jonas> mroman_: that's only first normal form of bf
15:49:07 <b_jonas> mroman_: second normal form bf programs further don't have the sequence ][ nor >< nor +- nor -+
15:49:42 <b_jonas> nortti: the second loop never runs. it's used as a form of comment.
15:49:50 <nortti> I was thinking "that is not a null"
15:50:12 <nortti> then I realized the second loops never runs since first one ends with a 0
15:50:35 <mroman_> second should be like no unmatched brackets and stuff?
15:50:51 <b_jonas> what? you need no unmatched brackets in any valid bf program
15:50:52 <Taneb> mroman_, that can be done with a simple CFG
15:54:27 <Taneb> A -> +|-|<|>|,|.|[S]
16:07:30 <mroman_> What kind of "states" do we need?
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16:08:09 <nortti> Draft, Approved, Forgotten?
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16:13:37 <nortti> err, yeah. my brains do not work today
16:14:58 <mroman_> that's the BNF of standard's identification string/number :)
16:15:42 <int-e> I like "forgotten"
16:17:02 <nortti> for drafts that are abandoned since everyone losy focus?
16:18:31 <int-e> It's the status of most standards once they've gone through the test of time
16:20:52 <int-e> But I do like the notion of tracking it formally. :)
16:21:19 <nortti> what criteria would be used to determine if a standard is forgotten?
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16:22:42 <int-e> obviously it's forgotten when nobody remembers it.
16:23:02 <nortti> then no-one would remember to change its status
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16:24:28 <int-e> so you need some outside historian assign the status for you
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16:39:42 <b_jonas> the statuses shall be: 1. draft, 2. still draft but already obsolate, 3. accepted but was already obsolate when it was accepted, 4. we claim it's draft and will finish it some day but actually it's vaporware and will be forgotten eventually
16:40:00 <b_jonas> and yes, we might need 5. revoked too
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16:49:04 <mroman_> http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D1-R1.pdf <- gotta set some ground rules
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16:54:23 <nortti> so, for example ESOSC-2014-D1 -> ESOSC-2014-D1-R2 -> ESOSC-2014-A1 -> ESOSC-2014-O1 ?
17:16:58 <mroman_> gotta document when a standard gets obsolete and stuff
17:17:02 <mroman_> then you can approve it ;)
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17:35:58 <HackEgo> todcoin 2d-revcoin quatcoin constanticoin parcoin saaticoin ferrocoin oddbalcoin suxecoin nybracoin lyapascoin luigecoin embaschlacoin rocurdcoin baycoin forcoin catamecoin divilliicoin rubecoin objectcoin
17:36:55 <kmc> i like rubecoin
17:37:23 <nortti> proof of work is a overcomplicated solution to a simple problem?
17:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/25205w/lets_hire_an_expendables_like_group_to_free_the/
17:47:22 <nortti> are all reddit bitcoiners that lost in touch with reality?
17:47:34 <mroman_> nortti, Taneb: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D1-R2.pdf
17:48:52 <Taneb> "anylonger" should be two words
17:49:08 <Taneb> And we specify the format but not its meaning
17:50:18 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, well, fair play to them it's downvoted into the negatives and all the replies are critical
17:50:40 <mroman_> year of issue and an ever increasing number
17:51:06 <nortti> mroman_: also, it could be good to note that only apprived versions are ever obsoleted
17:52:20 <mroman_> consists of a number that is successively increased with every new standard?
17:52:55 <nortti> Taneb: to prevent confusion when there are non-obsolete versions that contain the same info as obsolete ones? admitedly, the labelling of them as drafts should tick them off
17:53:19 <mroman_> Drafts can be "Rejected" I guess?
17:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, more representative sample: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/251314/its_the_perfect_time_to_buy_bitcoins/
17:54:09 <nortti> yeah, probably best to leave that corner-case out and do as we see best once the situation actually happens
17:56:15 <mroman_> encodes the year of issue and a number that is successively increased with every new standard to ensure uniqueness. "
17:58:17 <Taneb> What would happen if something has a revision in December then another in January?
17:58:53 <mroman_> That'd make the most sense I think
17:59:37 <mroman_> or the year the work on the draft began
18:00:02 <nortti> and the same EUIN (except for changed status and no revision in end) is kept when it is aproved
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18:14:05 <mroman_> nortti, Taneb: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D1-R3.pdf
18:18:09 <Taneb> I'd say "be approved" rather than "get approved"
18:18:24 <Taneb> Or possibly "be marked as approved"
18:23:19 <mroman_> I think the ESOSC can correct grammar/typos without a new revision :)
18:23:52 <mroman_> and that a revision is a draft
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18:24:18 <mroman_> or if you revise a standard the revision of that standard is in state "draft"
18:25:28 <RedSquirrel> "standardization of esoteric programming languages " <- is that a joke?
18:25:35 <Phantom__Hoover> i hope this standard will be integrated into the esolang standardisation system
18:26:46 <mroman_> RedSquirrel: Nah. It's serious business
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18:29:20 <oerjan> nortti: you know there's a tvtropes page for that right
18:30:10 <myname> RedSquirrel: everything we do here is dead serious
18:30:19 <mroman_> "A new revision of an approved standard is put into the draft state and requires the usual approval process taking place. Revisions of standards in draft state
18:30:22 <mroman_> are not affected by this. The ESOSC is allowed to correct gramma, orthographical or similar mistakes without requiring a new revision. "
18:30:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: The dead serious channel | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:32:17 <oerjan> Taneb: your voice recognition needs work
18:32:27 <HackEgo> 724) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
18:32:40 <RedSquirrel> the builtin orthographical mistakes is standardized copyprotection
18:34:02 <mroman_> http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D1-R4.pdf
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18:39:58 <mroman_> how does one become a member :D?
18:40:19 <mroman_> requires approval of three members to become a member
18:41:23 <myname> i don't know what the hell is going on and whether or not i am a member, but i approve
18:41:30 <Taneb> mroman_, two thirds majority?
18:41:42 <RedSquirrel> approval by ehird is absolutely satisfying
18:42:32 <mroman_> nortti: Do you approve two thirds majoirity?
18:42:37 <mroman_> then I don't have to make a R5 :D
18:43:30 <myname> so... what the hell is esosc and where can i sign in?
18:44:41 <nortti> mroman_: 2/3 majority on what?
18:45:52 <mroman_> 2/3 majority to become a member of the esosc
18:46:15 <mroman_> Our first approved standard
18:48:12 <nortti> `learn esosc is esoteric song contest
18:48:21 <mroman_> now we can work on that nbf
18:49:32 <RedSquirrel> may i ask how it came the world needs an "Esoteric Standard Committee"? somebody requested it?
18:49:35 <nortti> `run sed -i 's/$/ (also Esoteric Standard Committee)/' wisdom/esosc
18:49:44 <nortti> RedSquirrel: 18:25 < mroman_> I'm founding the Esoteric Standard Committee (ESOSC). Who's in? :P
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18:54:14 <nortti> so, nbf deals both with how the bf source file is stored and implementation details like EOF handling?
18:55:16 <Taneb> nortti, we could split the two specifications
18:55:26 <Taneb> "brainfuck conventions"
18:55:30 <nortti> yeah, I agree that would be better
18:55:31 <Taneb> And "Normalized brainfuck"
18:56:02 <nortti> because one is directed at source code, other at implementation
18:56:33 <myname> mroman_: what does that committee actually do?
18:56:43 <Taneb> myname, we make standards
18:57:46 <oerjan> also there needs to be a draft for adding lambda to brainfuck
18:58:48 <oerjan> also there will be an entirely different brainfuck standardisation sponsored by microsoft.
18:58:51 <nortti> and arithmetical type system
18:59:07 <myname> oerjan: is it called windows?
19:01:17 <mroman_> myname: We make standards, yeah.
19:02:38 <myname> i am quite unsure if i want to join
19:02:52 <myname> on one hand it sounds totally awesome
19:03:01 <myname> on the other hand it sounds like it could be actual work
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19:04:19 <mroman_> There's some work involved, yes.
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19:06:57 <RedSquirrel> while uncountable amounts of new esolangs are invented everyday, the channel had to change its focus on inventing some standards ..it's not that anybody wants it.. they're just necessary
19:08:10 <Taneb> ais523, there's now a standards committee
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19:09:32 <myname> i should found another one that defines standards that are always slightly incompatible with ESOSC standards
19:09:54 <kmc> how many CHF does it cost to buy the official copy of a ESOSC standard
19:09:57 <ais523> is it following on from the work of eso-std?
19:10:10 <ais523> I remember that project collapsed when we couldn't agree on a format that the standards should be in
19:10:19 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone but me cared about the actual standardisation part
19:10:20 <nortti> esoteric sexually transmitted disease?
19:10:30 <ais523> esoteric standardisation, I guess
19:10:52 <kmc> retroviruses are pretty esoteric
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19:12:37 <myname> i would've called it just ESO
19:12:50 <myname> would be more puny in respect to ISO
19:13:14 <myname> and the first thing would be a definition of an OSE reference modell
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19:23:17 <mroman_> http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-A1.pdf <- and there it is.
19:24:11 <ais523> the "hyphen" production isn't defined
19:24:42 <ais523> and numbers allow arbitrarily many leading zeros, not sure if that's intended
19:24:46 <mroman_> that should've been <hyph>
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19:27:43 <kmc> you're representing years in base 10? boring
19:30:58 <FireFly> Where do I voice the opinion that all specifications should be available in html format online, in addition to pdf?
19:34:25 <kmc> form a working group
19:34:28 <RedSquirrel> download and fill out the esosc-request forms
19:34:45 <nortti> then fax them to mroman_
19:35:19 <kmc> you'll have to submit a change request through your national standards body
19:35:54 <FireFly> I'm not sure if SIS recognises ESOSC as a standards body
19:36:26 <kmc> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_404.htm
19:36:47 <FireFly> I think that's what our national standards body is called
19:36:58 <FireFly> Although I don't remember what it expands to
19:37:11 <RedSquirrel> i know now.. i know where all this points at! learn the rules like a pro, to break them like an artist -picasso
19:37:26 <FireFly> "SIS Swedish Standards Institute"
19:37:49 <RedSquirrel> where's the fun in eden when there is no forbidden fruits?
19:38:12 <ais523> this channel has a surprisingly large number of Scandinavians
19:38:28 <nortti> even larger number of nordics
19:38:37 <FireFly> Apparently "SIS" officially stands for "Swedish Standards Institute" nowadays
19:38:55 <ais523> like "UTC" officially stands for "Coordinated Universal Time"?
19:39:01 <FireFly> I guess it's a bit like how UTC expands incorrectly in both french and english
19:40:30 <mroman_> I don't have latex2html I think on my windows
19:42:06 <FreeFull> https://github.com/huonw/brainfuck_macro Did you guys see this?
19:43:36 <nortti> http://winterdom.com/2002/03/regardingecma234
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19:45:32 <myname> the Web Ontology Language
19:49:06 <mroman_> http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/upcoming.txt
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20:04:05 <mroman_> this tool can't convert \begin{grammar}
20:08:34 <oerjan> hm the IE tab bugs haven't been _entirely_ eradicated, i see; i got a single tab that was colored again
20:09:18 <oerjan> mroman_: send it to grammar school
20:09:31 <mroman_> FireFly: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-A1.html
20:10:13 <mroman_> except for the OT1bchbn thingy there
20:10:43 <RedSquirrel> oerjan: for what reason do you use IE master oerjan?
20:12:11 <RedSquirrel> no.. you love writing bug-reports @ MS .. right?
20:12:14 <kmc> somebody should do Coccinelle for Rust
20:12:17 <kmc> that would be awesome
20:13:37 <oerjan> RedSquirrel: laziness and habit
20:14:19 <oerjan> also, the one time i tried to install chrome one of my favorite websites stopped working properly.
20:14:38 <mroman_> We're still missing a fancy logo though
20:15:09 <oerjan> and i don't bother with bug reports.
20:16:19 <oerjan> also, there needs to be someone who uses IE just to keep you guessing.
20:16:35 <kmc> i hear IE is pretty good these days
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20:17:24 <kmc> UTC is probably by analogy to UT0 etc.
20:17:54 <mroman_> and the 2/3 is missing in the html output
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20:18:06 <Taneb> I was writing notes on something
20:18:15 <Taneb> And I've just written "HMM."
20:18:25 <Taneb> I also drew a ship, which I scribbled out
20:18:30 <Taneb> I am not very good at this
20:18:31 <kmc> is it about hidden markov models?
20:18:49 <Taneb> But not really sort of
20:20:17 <kmc> Her Majesty's Moonship
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20:31:32 <mroman_> Why didn't somebody create a Painfuck
20:31:49 <mroman_> that introduces new symbols for EOF and Newline handling
20:32:13 <mroman_> unless there already is such a thing
20:32:37 <mroman_> seeing as how many derivatives of bf exist certainly there should be one around them adressing those issues
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20:34:13 <ais523> mroman_: in most of my esolangs nowadays, I have EOF = 0, NUL = 1, SOH = 2, etc.
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20:35:36 <nortti> I think lazy-k's eof=256 was pretty good
20:35:42 <kmc> there are so many brainfuck derivatives but are there any brainfuck integrals
20:36:15 <nortti> how would one construct a brainfuck integral?
20:37:32 <kmc> not my problem
20:38:11 <FireFly> Didn't someone invent a brainfuck derivative that replaces the tape's cells with a real line?
20:38:40 <FireFly> I imagine the loop condition would involve integrals in that case, maybe that counts
20:39:17 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think of memoization of continuous functions
20:39:22 <kmc> Rust now supports inline brainfuck: https://github.com/huonw/brainfuck_macro
20:39:33 <kmc> shachaf: don't know, what do you think of it
20:39:45 <shachaf> it sounds p. interesting imo
20:40:09 <shachaf> i mean in particular the thing where you share most of the work between similar inputs to produce similar outputs
20:40:12 <kmc> i don't know anything about it
20:43:02 <shachaf> and also making it happen automatically with laziness when you use a particular sort of continuity??
20:43:26 <shachaf> e.g. you have a bit stream and a prefix of it gets shared
20:43:42 <shachaf> er, that doesn't quite make sense
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20:48:24 <ion> https://imgur.com/a/iDJMg
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20:52:58 <kmc> as the saying goes, "they had a good run"
20:53:13 <kmc> I kind of stopped watching / caring during this season
20:57:20 <Phantom__Hoover> (i probably shouldn't binge on tv shows that are still running, i just lose interest between seasons)
20:58:59 <kmc> I've been re-watching Peep Show with douglass_
20:59:29 <kmc> it's one of the top few funniest shows I've ever seen
20:59:35 <Phantom__Hoover> i got about 5 minutes into the first episode of peep show and it was just too painful
21:00:21 <kmc> yeah I could see that
21:02:29 <Phantom__Hoover> my family got me hooked on endeavour during the holidays but it's now between series as well
21:06:10 <kmc> what's endeavour
21:07:23 <Taneb> kmc, prequel to Inspector Morse iirc
21:14:23 <kmc> what possessed me to listen to a song titled "Vienna Arcweld Fucked Gamelan Rigid Tracking"
21:14:43 <kmc> "song" is perhaps an overstatement, it consists mostly of ominous ambient squeaking machinery noises
21:15:20 <oerjan> you can't go wrong with gamelan
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21:19:26 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1VcuffZocA&index=6&list=PL4CD9537492AEA538
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21:44:38 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
21:44:38 <fungot> kmc: it should use? which compiler, msvc? i'm inside your mom!
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21:45:39 <kmc> that's really between the two of them
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21:47:49 <Phantom__Hoover> `addquote <fungot> kmc: it should use? which compiler, msvc? i'm inside your mom!
21:47:49 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: now to sleep. first lecture day of 2006 tomorrow, wouldn't want to use some package or other
21:47:51 <HackEgo> 1193) <fungot> kmc: it should use? which compiler, msvc? i'm inside your mom!
21:50:38 <oerjan> fungot has time travel all figured out.
21:50:38 <fungot> oerjan: i don't know if that is true.
21:51:18 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: my irix box could probably use one.
21:51:20 <oerjan> fungot: so you have to forget that you know time travel to use it? fascinating!
21:51:20 <fungot> oerjan: i have just been extended to fnord words... interesting
21:52:06 <oerjan> fungot: no, you've always done that. maybe you are actually past fungot.
21:52:06 <fungot> oerjan: i think this is the guy working on def-bf, who is root fnord" in the various schemes/ i
21:52:42 <FireFly> fungot: I don't think oerjan is working on that, no
21:52:43 <fungot> FireFly: freedom is slavery ignorance is strenght bush is president. so counting ballots is really more difficult than merge sort or insertion sort.... of evil!
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21:54:14 <zzo38> I have said before, there is no infinite loop of write operation in SQL, only of read operation (such as a SELECT statement); however, that is probably sufficient for most things anyways.
21:56:07 <oerjan> edwardk: there seems to be an SO lens-related question which no one can answer http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23567695/implementing-polymorphic-deep-function-for-traversals-and-folds
21:56:25 <oerjan> (it's over my lens head, at least)
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22:08:26 <shachaf> oerjan: the usual solution to that sort of thing is to not take a rank-2 Traversal argument and return a Traversal result but take some sort of Over p f s t a b sort of argument and return a similar result
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22:09:37 <shachaf> so your caller needs to pick the types
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22:29:12 <kmc> shachaf: Rust's RefCell is kind of an interesting beast
22:29:17 <kmc> I'm not sure if it's mis-named or not
22:29:27 <kmc> it's not necessarily heap allocated
22:31:12 <kmc> its purpose is basically that you can do &RefCell<T> -> &mut T
22:31:36 <kmc> and this moves the enforcement of mutable pointer aliasing rules to runtime
22:32:11 <kmc> so a RefCell<T> is a T (annotated so that LLVM won't assume it's immutable) alongside a word for this dynamic borrow flag
22:40:59 <kmc> I found some ways to break said aliasing rules in servo
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22:44:50 <shachaf> i should really learn about rust and multable pointer aliasing rules sometime
22:46:57 * Sgeo finds it mildly distressing that trying to envision lenses in Smalltalk is making him envision deliberately losing the property that the optics themselves are definable separately from the structures they traverse, solely because that fits better syntactically
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22:47:08 <Sgeo> (aLens,bLens,cLens) of: someStructure put: blah
22:52:07 <kmc> shachaf: &mut references can't alias with any other reference
22:52:09 <kmc> is the main thing
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22:55:13 <kmc> this is enforced statically, but you can break the rules in unsafe code and then enforce it dynamically, which is what std::cell implements
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22:59:38 <Sgeo> Pharo seems headed in a more OO direction
23:01:03 <Sgeo> http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/advanced-reflection-in-pharo
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23:06:39 <olsner> my code mostly breaks the aliasing rules and then doesn't enforce them, and then writes are lost sometimes
23:07:04 <olsner> I wonder if a less safe language would end up doing the right thing more often
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23:14:42 <kmc> why do you break the rules?
23:17:56 <kmc> why you want rail for kalashnikov
23:25:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i see bizarre stuff http://stackoverflow.com/a/23575190/1088108 (also, pretty quick service)
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