00:03:15 <Taneb> The I country I voted for in the Eurovision came last :(
00:08:06 <zzo38> interpPrefixes = ["idris-bot: "]
00:16:21 <nooodl> Taneb: i thought france was decent?? france was catchy
00:19:11 <Taneb> They only got 2 points
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00:25:52 <oerjan> that's because no one could understand what they were singing hth
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00:28:18 <Taneb> oerjan, une moustache!
00:28:56 <oerjan> well who cares about aching mice
00:30:51 <Taneb> I also found out that one of my friends, who happens to be Italian, cannot hear the difference between "Paul" and "pole"
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00:35:30 <zzo38> Which sorting algorithms work best when only partial ordering is defined?
00:40:03 <zzo38> (If there is no ordering for some pair of data, then it means don't care how it is ordered in the final list.)
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00:41:22 <Bike> i thought it was usual for sorts to treat false both ways as meaning equal, meaning their relative order is unimportant
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00:55:49 <nooodl> idea: call an esolang C. "maximal confusion"
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02:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dggh * New user account
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03:42:59 <HackEgo> bestcoin akhacoin befuncitacoin chamcoin pointwispcoin beturcoin rfkcoin prnfcoin stackcoin barelnecoin monecoin shagecoin fmanicoin thtecoin plungcoin seliacoin enubicoin pathcoin 0.19coin footiliorslitaincoin
03:51:10 <kmc> the fungot are the virtuous among us
03:51:10 <fungot> kmc: help getting to work only if you had to specify a " real" programs, too :) libgauche.so: no such file
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04:20:26 <coppro> anyone here know about quasi-order/preorder theory?
04:26:50 <shachaf> preorders are just simple categories hth
04:27:08 <HackEgo> A preorder is just a small thin category.
04:27:25 <copumpkin> it's a variant on tropical mathematics
04:28:51 <shachaf> preorders are just topologies where any intersection of open sets is open hth
04:29:12 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you finish topology in agda yet
04:29:15 <coppro> /ignore -regexp -pattern hth$ #esoteric
04:29:40 <copumpkin> hrm, I had some code for it somewhere
04:29:44 <copumpkin> might have been on the dead computer though
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06:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39491&oldid=39490 * GermanyBoy * (+1071)
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07:29:43 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/BKuYBOmq <- so far so good
07:29:57 <mroman_> an assembly like language should be easiest to compile and write a compiler in it
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07:53:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39493&oldid=39492 * GermanyBoy * (+198)
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08:29:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39495&oldid=39494 * GermanyBoy * (-10)
08:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39496&oldid=39495 * GermanyBoy * (+3)
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08:34:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39497&oldid=39496 * GermanyBoy * (+2) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
08:35:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39498&oldid=39497 * GermanyBoy * (+0) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
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08:52:19 <mroman_> is fprintf(0,"foo") the same as fprintf(stdout,"foo")?
08:52:33 <mroman_> since it's argument is a FILE*
08:52:48 <mroman_> which one could confuse as "ponter to a file"
08:52:59 <mroman_> where 0 would be more or less a null pointer
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08:59:07 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain() { fprintf(0, "\\n"); }
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09:14:40 <mroman_> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain() { fprintf(stdout, "\\n"); }
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09:19:54 <oerjan> edwardk: after pondering your recent deepOf, i've concluded that you need a Tectonic class so that your plates can move (between types (and i realize Data may not be up to give the information)) and stab properly.
09:28:03 <oerjan> just making sure i wasn't lying on stackoverflow
09:32:18 * oerjan suddenly wonders if he can say eighth
09:33:10 <myname> eighth of spades vs ace of spades
09:33:36 <mroman_> that's fcntl and stuff that takes int 0 as stdout
09:35:09 <oerjan> hm that gives two google hits, alas not with the eighth and thpadeth together
09:36:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39499&oldid=39498 * GermanyBoy * (+2) /* Classes and objects */
09:40:08 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\n#define A(x) printf(#x" = %d\\n", fileno(x));\nmain(){ A(stdin); A(stdout); A(stderr); }
09:40:09 <HackEgo> stdin = 0 \ stdout = 1 \ stderr = 2
09:41:17 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\n#define A(x) printf(#x"=%p fileno("#x")=%d\\n", x, fileno(x));\nmain(){ A(stdin); A(stdout); A(stderr); }
09:41:18 <HackEgo> stdin=0x405a66c0 fileno(stdin)=0 \ stdout=0x405a67a0 fileno(stdout)=1 \ stderr=0x405a6880 fileno(stderr)=2
10:17:33 <Melvar> @tell zzo38 I also made it strip its nick off the front of a line independently of any other interpretation.
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10:19:36 <idris-bot> (input):1:7: error: expected: operator
10:19:57 <oerjan> hm idris doesn't have sections at all?
10:20:33 <idris-bot> (input):1:7: error: expected: operator
10:21:50 <oerjan> so it has sections, but their arguments must not have top operators?
10:26:22 <Melvar> oerjan: I believe that is correct.
10:26:58 <idris-bot> (input):1:9: error: expected: operator
10:27:15 <oerjan> ...or function application.
10:27:23 <Melvar> Huh, I thought that worked.
10:27:55 <Melvar> Looks like time to update the issue …
10:28:02 <Melvar> Yes, it very much does.
10:28:10 <oerjan> there's an issue for this?
10:31:29 <Melvar> https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/issues/524 Also I miscalled them “slices” apparently >.>
10:32:42 <int-e> it makes sense, both slices, sections are parts cut off from a whole.
10:33:38 <oerjan> now you must go the edwardk way and make them be subtly differently typed variations on a theme.
10:34:41 <edwardk> type shifting plates is something we've talked about ;)
10:34:52 <Melvar> IIRC, the improvement there should have allowed at least function application to appear there, but apparently later changes have broken that again?
10:35:10 <oerjan> edwardk: i sort of expected that :)
10:35:36 <idris-bot> \{ARG1000} => prim__addBigInt ARG 2 : Integer -> Integer
10:36:25 <idris-bot> \{ARG1000} => prim__divFloat ARG 2.0 : Float -> Float
10:37:00 <Melvar> The wierd name is because there’s some problem with showing internal autogenerated names.
10:38:39 <Melvar> ( the (Eq Int) %instance
10:38:39 <idris-bot> constructor of Prelude.Classes.Eq (\{meth0} => \{meth1} => intToBool (prim__eqInt meth meth))
10:38:39 <idris-bot> (\{meth2} => \{meth4} => not (intToBool (prim__eqInt meth meth))) : Eq Int
10:40:20 <oerjan> i see, it's dropping the number in expression position?
10:40:22 <Melvar> Braces and uniquifying number are shown at binding but not at use, it seems.
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10:44:17 <Melvar> And then there’s “constructor of Prelude.Classes.Eq” which is also an internal name you can’t reference. Several kinds of internal name are phrases, making parsing some errors a bit difficult.
10:54:13 <oerjan> that sounds like the main thing you'd want to use {}'s around
10:54:34 <oerjan> perhaps allowing them on input too?
11:01:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sngscsv]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39500 * Dggh * (+4) Created page with "todo"
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11:16:53 <Melvar> oerjan: There are already things with {} around on input, so no.
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11:18:54 <oerjan> Melvar: in that case you are doomed to absorb perl syntax for distinguishing the options hth
11:19:24 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
11:19:25 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Basics.id, Control.Category.id
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11:29:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39501 * 92.105.82.69 * (+675) Created page with "The Esoteric Standard Committee (ESOSC) aims to standardize esolangs and related works. The ESOSC assures high-quality esolang standards much more detailed than esolang wiki ..."
11:30:41 <nortti> mroman_: I'm user:EzoLang
11:32:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39502&oldid=39501 * 92.105.82.69 * (+1)
11:33:23 <Taneb> mroman_, nortti, what are the prospective goals for D4 and D5
11:36:50 <mroman_> After hearing about PSOX D4 might not be needed
11:36:56 <mroman_> except that PSOX uses a binary format
11:37:09 <mroman_> which might be unconfortable for some esolangs probbly?
11:37:29 <mroman_> But D4 was about EsoAPI, PEOSIX
11:38:24 <mroman_> #++ is some esolang I'm working on
11:39:20 <mroman_> EsoAPI specs aren't available anymore
11:39:31 <mroman_> but Sgeo's PSOX specs are still available
11:45:56 <mroman_> The ISO also standardizes whole languages
11:46:04 <mroman_> so I thought we could do that to
11:46:23 <mroman_> which raises the questions whether Brainfuck Conventions should be more like "ESOSC Brainfuck"
11:46:50 <mroman_> Which defines what to use as EOF and stuff
11:47:00 <mroman_> and maybe standardize how to embed comments into Brainfuck
11:48:14 <mroman_> rather than "defining" conventions
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11:49:10 <mroman_> how are we actually going to do this?
11:49:25 <mroman_> ask around what people here prefer and then use the majority
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11:56:57 <nortti> that seems like a good idea
11:59:06 <FireFly> It being a binary format is probably rather helpful in some other esolangs though
11:59:29 <nortti> should we conduct just a informat vote on channel or set up some sort of questionaire thing?
12:08:23 <nortti> yeah, wasn't there a gdocs thing for that
12:09:09 <mroman_> "Do you want 0 or -1 (255) as EOF?"
12:09:34 <nortti> so, EOF, wraparound, bitness?
12:09:48 <nortti> also, there's the possibility of no change on EOF
12:11:36 <nortti> also, regarding 2014-D2-R3, are there any more plans to introduce other normalized forms than FNF?
12:11:59 <int-e> you could take this under consideration: http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/rules.html
12:12:20 <Taneb> nortti, all of <>, +- etc don't apply with bounded tapes or non-wrapping values
12:12:46 <int-e> (though I thought not allowing to decrement 0 was a pity)
12:13:39 <nortti> in the case that no other normalized forms are planned, the "First" seems redundant
12:14:27 <nortti> oh, actually. I never thought about what ',' would return after EOF had been reached, maybe have that too
12:14:47 <nortti> at least erroring out and re-returning EOF are possibilities
12:15:21 <Taneb> I'd prefer re-returning EOF
12:16:14 <nortti> oh and newline handling
12:16:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39503&oldid=39499 * GermanyBoy * (+314) /* Commands */
12:16:57 <Taneb> Or if we're feeling ridiculous, U+0085
12:17:26 <HackEgo> [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0038 DIGIT EIGHT] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE]
12:17:34 <Melvar> `unicode LINE SEPARATOR
12:17:42 <HackEgo> U+0085 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 85 UTF-16BE: 0085 Decimal: … \
\ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: B (Paragraph Separator)
12:18:08 <Taneb> But no, Line Feed is a better option
12:18:57 <nortti> personally I'd implement the stuff as 8bit, wrap, linefeed, 0 on eof, re-return eof, right-infine
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12:27:07 <HackEgo> U+0085 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 85 UTF-16BE: 0085 Decimal: … \
\ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: B (Paragraph Separator)
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12:28:41 <int-e> Jafet: please standardize something that doesn't invalidate virtually all BF programs ever written.
12:40:35 <int-e> Historically, Urban Müller's bfi.c used getchar() for ',', that points towards -1 for EOF. I wonder what the compiler did ...
12:42:23 <nortti> where does the zero-on-eof come from?
12:43:41 <int-e> I don't know. I can imagine two reasons, one is convenience, and the other is a dislike for negative numbers (for example because you want to use Church numerals)
12:44:42 <nortti> well, online survey would probably be best
12:44:59 <Taneb> In the topic and on the wiki's main page?
12:45:34 <nortti> if one of you can create it, I cannot run gdocs atm
12:46:12 <mroman_> I'm creating one currently :)
12:52:47 <nooodl> ,[.,] is the most compelling argument imo
12:55:52 <nortti> no-change has the argument that is can simulate any return on eof
12:56:20 <nortti> s/,/[-],/g for 0 and s/,/[-]-,/g for -1
12:59:29 <Jafet> I'll standardize cookies
12:59:43 <nortti> compared to ,+[-.,+] (assuming wrap for sake of sanity) and [-],[.[-],]
13:03:33 <Jafet> So, how does no-change cat work
13:04:16 <nooodl> or i guess the first [-] doesn't matter, duh.
13:04:47 <Jafet> That stops on zero, not EOF
13:05:23 <int-e> there's always a character that can't be distinguished from EOF if you have only 8 bits (and 8 bit characters)
13:06:01 <nooodl> -,+[-.[-]-,+] i guess?
13:06:03 <int-e> you can also use -,+[-.[-]-,+] to simulate -1 on EOF
13:06:16 <oerjan> just be radical and do > on EOF hth
13:06:40 <oerjan> (the command, not the character)
13:07:07 <Jafet> Sounds good as far as standards go
13:07:30 <oerjan> 'twould have the advantage that you actually _could_ distinguish EOF from everything.
13:08:57 <nortti> also, break ~everything
13:09:00 <int-e> Ok, it does look like Urban Müller's compiler implements no change on EOF semantics.
13:10:15 <Jafet> Run three copies of the program and merge the results
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13:21:58 <oerjan> wait, even better, do [>] on EOF.
13:24:21 <oerjan> hm no that's close enough.
13:24:42 <oerjan> (doesn't break ,[.,] cat)
13:26:34 <oerjan> i think that will accidentally fail to break many programs hth
13:27:11 <oerjan> (basically anything that does , only on a 0 _or_ halts immediately when reading a 0.)
13:28:37 <oerjan> yep, almost completely backwards compatible!
13:30:42 <oerjan> intuitively, because if you are saving input for later you'd most likely input into a new untouched cell
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13:50:05 <mroman_> https://de.surveymonkey.com/s/LKP5NSH <- something like that @questionaire
13:53:39 <oerjan> 3 is missing the option of unbounded in both directions
13:54:21 <nortti> is it possible to make that page be in english?
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13:54:53 <nortti> nope, shows german for me
13:56:46 <oerjan> mroman_: drop the initial de. in the hostname
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13:57:04 <nortti> still shows german for me if I drop the de.
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13:59:21 <nortti> now I get a finnish page telling me that the page was not found
13:59:53 <mroman_> I had to change question 3
14:00:01 <mroman_> so I had to revoke the previous link
14:00:23 <mroman_> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV
14:00:27 <mroman_> ^- that should be english now
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14:20:48 <int-e> This is getting ridiculous. It says "Javascript is required for this site to function, please enable." I disable CSS. I get a bona fide HTML form to fill in, with functioning submit button.
14:21:27 <nortti> oh, I didn't even notice such a requirement since links2 does not have css :D
14:25:12 <int-e> The sad thing is that the Web at large has now successfully trained me to do that, disable CSS when a web page requests Javascript. It works about half of the time.
14:25:45 <int-e> (To be more specific, when it requests Javascript but doesn't display any other content.)
14:26:11 <nortti> also works on the bootstrap-based menus that for some ungodly reason require js
14:29:57 <Melvar> int-e: I’m gonna have to remember that. Sometimes I remember to click-hold and press delete, and sometimes that works too.
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17:18:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39504&oldid=39380 * GermanyBoy * (+141) Forobj
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17:20:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39505&oldid=39503 * GermanyBoy * (+10)
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17:23:07 <FireFly> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/31357.html
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17:47:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Malltog * New user account
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17:55:40 <boily> good fternoon! we have a song contest?
17:55:48 <lambdabot> kmc asked 2d 16h 48m 25s ago: what's the deal with your quit messages?
17:56:08 <boily> kmc: eh... eeeeeeeeh... >_>'...
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18:00:44 <Taneb> The esoteric song contest!
18:04:05 -!- conehead has joined.
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18:05:00 <boily> mrhelloman_. Tanelle.
18:05:24 <boily> any subscribers? contestants? judges? bloopers?
18:09:41 <kmc> https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3472/3373021846_838c8b0089_o.jpg
18:10:58 * boily twitches, drools and overdoses with a manic grin
18:11:07 <boily> oh oui... ouiiii...
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18:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Improbable]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39506 * Malltog * (+1432) Created page with "'''Improbable''' is a register- and tape-based esoteric language focusing on succinctness. A tape is called the datastore, and is 256 bytes long. The register is one byte. The..."
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18:28:59 <myname> why is succinctness such a long word
18:29:37 <FireFly> not a very succint word, eh
18:30:38 <kmc> it's heterological
18:32:24 <nooodl> is heterological heterological
18:32:26 <boily> can a word be partially heterological?
18:32:32 <nooodl> sounds russell's paradox-y
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18:32:58 <nooodl> nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grelling%E2%80%93Nelson_paradox#Similarities_with_Russell.27s_paradox
18:37:04 <kmc> boily: bilogical?
18:37:39 <boily> boilogicaly: that which is sane and logical in my head.
18:38:45 <boily> (can't blame chicken. it tastes good!)
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19:15:54 <mroman_> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV <- Brainfuck Survey
19:18:20 -!- nortti has set topic: The dead serious channel | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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19:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Improbable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39507&oldid=39506 * Malltog * (+2) Clarified external link
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20:04:42 <impomatic> Is anyone planning to implement Pinkcode? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pinkcode
20:28:41 <FireFly> That looks a bit interesting
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20:36:32 <FireFly> I don't get what cell ownership affects, though
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21:11:26 <rapido_> has anyone been into http://www.availlang.org ?
21:12:49 <rapido_> avail has a very interesting type system married with functional purity
21:13:29 <rapido_> it appears esoteric because of its *very* free syntax
21:13:45 <rapido_> but the semantics are very solid
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21:15:41 <rapido> oh? but everything is pure except for variables (of course!)
21:16:32 <rapido> the type system is pretty nifty
21:17:08 <elliott> rapido: if reader : []→string and writer : [string]→⊤ are ever going to get specified as things that do IO (as the text suggests), then it is unlikely they can have those types in a pure language.
21:17:10 <rapido> it has multmethod dispatch on precise types
21:17:33 <elliott> those variables also seem to clearly be mutable
21:17:37 <rapido> ah, the reader and write stuff
21:17:51 <rapido> yes, variables are mutable
21:18:16 <elliott> sure, but it's not pure :P
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21:18:45 <elliott> I guess "functional purity" could just mean purity of paradigm there rather than "purely functional".
21:19:10 <elliott> but I'm not quite sure "functional" exists as a meaningful paradigm in itself if you don't at least imply the language is pure
21:19:32 <rapido> yeah, i know what you mean
21:21:01 <elliott> the language seems interesting at a glance, though the syntax is hard to get over.
21:21:19 <rapido> every language is suddenly ‘functional’ because that’s fashionable to say
21:21:39 <rapido> yeah, the syntax is hard because it’s completely free form
21:22:52 <rapido> because we should talk about semantics - no? 9.9
21:23:10 <elliott> yeah, but syntax is easier to argue about
21:23:39 <oerjan> let's argue about the syntax of comments
21:24:45 <oerjan> i recommend borrowing the -- (...) (...) ... from Reaper.
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21:25:02 <oerjan> (my vancient aporware language)
21:26:07 <elliott> I still want you to finish that.
21:26:16 <rapido> what about this avail gem? http://www.availlang.org/_examples/rpn/RPN.avail
21:26:30 <rapido> i’m very much into postfix syntax
21:28:01 <rapido> but that example just renders syntax arguments moot
21:29:14 <oerjan> i sense some COBOL/ADA inspiration.
21:29:15 <rapido> but, it could be that avail is an advertisment for babelism
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21:30:28 <elliott> you could also say that article provides more fuel for syntax arguments than anyone could ever need :p
21:31:08 <rapido> see: https://trac.availlang.org/browser/avail/Avail/distro/src/avail/Avail.avail/Foundation.avail/Sets.avail
21:32:09 <rapido> fyi i’m totally in love with avail
21:32:34 <rapido> it’s like my language enchilada, but with types
21:36:34 <oerjan> types are like enchiladas
21:37:21 <rapido> oerjan: ah? i never tasted such a type of enchilada
21:37:51 <oerjan> you need to wear a hazmat suit
21:38:45 <oerjan> in the middle of a desert
21:39:33 <rapido> to get your urine recycled
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21:40:19 <oerjan> (i'm just parodying monad analogies here, assuming they're going over your head)
21:40:46 <rapido> god, i need urine but i’m wearing this suit
21:40:59 <oerjan> urine a bit of trouble then
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21:41:15 <rapido> monad analogies go over my head because i ignore them
21:42:20 <pikhq> Monads are like burritos: nobody understands them.
21:42:31 <oerjan> good, good. once a monad analogy gets into your head you cannot get it out again.
21:43:31 <oerjan> pikhq: i'm pretty sure edwardk does.
21:43:49 <pikhq> edwardk, burrito god.
21:44:15 <Bike> burritos rule, though....
21:45:01 <rapido> nope, they fligh right over my head - because i duck
21:46:37 <rapido> duck is rather tasty too
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21:48:59 <oerjan> edwardk: are you a burrito expert twh
21:56:22 <rapido> just to show off my new love, she’s a rare kind of type (of types of types): http://www.availlang.org/about-avail/documentation/type-system/metatypes.html
21:57:39 <edwardk> oerjan: i've been known to wrap code in a burrito or two
21:57:58 <edwardk> oerjan: what can i help you with?
21:58:25 <edwardk> i do maintain the burrito transformer library ;)
21:58:42 <oerjan> we were merely wondering if the monad-burrito correspondence held for you
22:00:28 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax liftString :: String -> Q Exp
22:12:01 <oerjan> hm why doesn't that give a general MonadCont
22:12:07 <lambdabot> MonadState s m => (s -> (a, s)) -> m a
22:13:21 <oerjan> edwardk: i suppose as the maintainer of the burrito transformer library you should know that?
22:13:27 <edwardk> comonads are more like burritos to me
22:13:34 <edwardk> you can always unwrap them
22:14:39 <edwardk> anyways, cont can't be upgraded the way you want. m occurs in both positive and negative position in it
22:14:51 <lambdabot> ((a -> m r) -> m r) -> ContT r m a
22:15:50 <oerjan> you _could_ do it from the Codensity version, right?
22:16:12 <oerjan> i mean, a forall on the r would suffice.
22:16:27 <edwardk> you've stumbled on the difference between MonadTrans and something stronger that permits an injection t Identity a -> t m a or (MonadHoist t, Monad m , Monad n) => (forall a. m a -> n a) -> t m a -> t n a
22:16:58 <edwardk> i haven't checked naturality of hoisting for Codensity
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22:18:39 <rapido> we should consider creating an avail channel
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22:21:59 <oerjan> edwardk: i'm just wondering if you can write something of type MonadCont m => (forall r. (a -> r) -> r) -> m a
22:22:55 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
22:23:04 <oerjan> hm that's not quite the right type
22:23:23 <edwardk> you can't callCC with Codensity
22:23:28 <edwardk> but you can lower codensity to Cont
22:23:35 <oerjan> edwardk: i'm talking about MonadCont
22:24:04 <oerjan> since that is, after all, it's only specific method.
22:24:10 <edwardk> trivial :: Codensity m a -> ContT r m a; trivial = ContT . runCodensity
22:24:15 <rapido> Ghoul_: sorry, i thought you were someone else.
22:24:19 <edwardk> but handling all of MonadCont I don't expect
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22:50:30 <oerjan> edwardk: oh duh of course callCC has the right type to lift Codensity Identity a, just set b = a.
22:51:25 <edwardk> your statement is a bit different
22:51:25 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘runIdentity’ (imported from Control.Monad.Identity)
22:51:56 <edwardk> I was just running Codensity m a in ContT r m a -- unquantifying r
22:53:06 <oerjan> my er was because i realized m worked instead of Identity
22:53:29 <oerjan> i just needed to look up that i remembered the definition of Codensity.
22:55:47 <oerjan> :t callCC :: MonadCont m => (forall z. (a -> m z) -> m z) -> m a
22:55:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(a1 -> m1 b0) -> m1 a1’
22:55:48 <lambdabot> with ‘forall z. (a1 -> m1 z) -> m1 z’
22:55:48 <lambdabot> Expected type: (forall z. (a1 -> m1 z) -> m1 z) -> m1 a1
22:56:06 <edwardk> you can lift Codensity Identity as well of course.
22:56:25 <oerjan> hm i guess i need a let
22:56:26 <edwardk> just use the ContT constructor
22:56:29 <lambdabot> ((a -> m r) -> m r) -> ContT r m a
22:56:46 <edwardk> :t Data.Functor.Codensity.Codensity
22:56:47 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Functor.Codensity.Codensity’
22:56:50 <Ghoul_> if I start learning now, I'll understand this in about 15 years.
22:57:05 <edwardk> @let newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall r. (a -> m r) -> m r }
22:57:05 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
22:57:10 <oerjan> :t let r2cCC f = callCC f; r2cCC :: MonadCont m => (forall z. (a -> m z) -> m z) -> m a in r2cCC
22:57:11 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => (forall z. (a -> m z) -> m z) -> m a
22:57:43 <edwardk> oh you keep trying for full MonadCont
22:57:52 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
22:57:57 <oerjan> well yes, and it seems to work
22:58:35 <edwardk> it fits my understanding of how you can use the continuation in codensity
22:58:44 <oerjan> :t let r2cCC cd = callCC (runCodensity cd) in r2cCC
22:58:45 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘runIdentity’ (imported from Control.Monad.Identity)
22:59:01 <oerjan> oh your definition failed
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23:00:09 <oerjan> int-e: i think lambdabot @let is missing some extension to allow foralls in data types
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