00:00:22 <olsner> I think polypoly is a CMS system
00:03:27 <ion> poly wants a cookie
00:03:48 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry, that must clearly be rholy- greek r is always aspirated hth
00:31:46 <boily> `learn A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic!
00:33:12 <oerjan> gah i think this packet of orange juice is unusually sour
00:47:06 <kmc> orange juice comes in packets?
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00:48:02 <kmc> what's this about lovers and wives and poly
00:48:05 <kmc> also why is Quintopia capitalized today
00:50:01 <oerjan> kmc: http://www.supermarket.no/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/235x/f6f16b5d1c90e7b178d9c9bcfc699527/s/u/sunniva-orginal-appelsinjuice-1_75-l.jpg
00:51:55 <boily> Quintopia is in a permanent state of being capitalized.
00:53:02 <Quintopia> in other channel there is a quanticle
00:53:29 <Quintopia> i thought a case difference might help
00:54:03 <Quintopia> also hi boily, would you like to know what i am most likely to be doing at a given hour of a random day?
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00:57:47 <Quintopia> i don't like that brainfuck survey. i want to answer "this and this and this are all good choices" and "it depends" for all of them
00:59:29 <olsner> a standard that just enumerates all possible behaviors without specifying anything sounds pretty good
00:59:43 <olsner> if a standard is what the survey is supposed to produce
00:59:56 <Quintopia> "notsleeping" means "i should be asleep but i'm doing some other random crap". if i filter out "notsleeping" and "bed" those four hours become "blog, sleeping, sleeping, sleeping"
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01:01:17 <Quintopia> http://ibin.co/1OMr2pMlF2v4 this is the same thing but on the weekend
01:04:47 <boily> is that localtime?
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01:08:45 <Quintopia> yes that's US eastern time (adjusted for dst as necessary?)
01:10:22 <boily> your timezone is misaligned hth
01:11:09 <boily> I had one one summer. I was working from 5pm up until about 2am.
01:11:30 <boily> I remember 'tis was the summer where I watched the Fullmetal Panic the first time.
01:12:26 <Quintopia> is that related to full metal jacket?
01:14:26 <boily> it's too late for me to properly conjugate.
01:14:49 <Quintopia> it's never too late! even the dead can learn to read!
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01:15:48 <kmc> what kind?
01:16:30 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
01:16:40 <boily> grammatical workout!
01:17:58 <oerjan> int-e: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23969963/printing-definitions-of-functions-classes-in-ghci-with-lambdabot
01:19:14 <oerjan> i think the answer is "lambdabot can't do that" but i'm not sure enough to answer.
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01:22:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23969963/printing-definitions-of-functions-classes-in-ghci-with-lambdabot
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01:48:52 <metasepia> CYUL 010100Z 11006KT 30SM SCT240 18/09 A3029 RMK CI4 SLP257
01:48:57 <boily> windows open tonight.
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01:58:38 <Quintopia> someone tell me how it works (and whether it is correct) http://bpaste.net/show/326061/
02:03:37 <fowl> Quintopia, you should hire back the wizards who wrote this
02:05:44 <Quintopia> it's supposed to count the number of paths of length at least 1 in a 3x3 grid
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02:20:27 <oerjan> Quintopia: looks plausible hth
02:22:30 <oerjan> although this made not be one of the cases where StateT is clearer than explicit accumulator passing :P
02:23:37 <oerjan> and adjacents might seem a little inefficient (no caching of results)
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02:28:20 <oerjan> Quintopia: perhaps it would help if i unraveled the StateT part? walk (visited@(cur:_) = do next <- adjacents cur; if (next `elem` visited) then return visited else (walk (next:visited)) ... oh wait there's a bug.
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02:29:12 <oerjan> Quintopia: nope it's not correct because it will duplicate final paths if there is more than one already visited cell to the final one
02:33:03 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); unless (next `elem` visited) (modify (next:) >> walk)}
02:34:07 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); (modify (next:) >> (get `mplus` walk)}
02:34:47 <zzo38> I saw that someone did make up a "co-do-notation", which they called "method-notation".
02:36:14 <oerjan> i recall there was a discussion about whether comonad notation was method calls. i don't think everyone agreed.
02:37:06 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); (modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
02:38:03 <oerjan> it doesn't matter what it returns since it's extracting just the state anyway.
02:38:53 <oerjan> i _think_ that will work but someone might want to test it.
02:39:55 <zzo38> I don't know if it is like method calls either, but I can see how it work. It is similar to a do-notation, and you can bind variables, but instead of giving a wrapped result and the variable's value is unwrapped, it is other way around; furthermore, there is a implicit variable "this" which is defined as the current value of the object at the current step. It can be call method-notation, whether or not it is resembling method calls.
02:40:27 <zzo38> Even just like, do-notation does not necessarily have to sequence actions either.
02:41:26 <Quintopia> oerjan: just can you tell me what result it gives? i don't have haskell set up here
02:41:41 <oerjan> wait you want _me_ to test it, how awkward
02:42:09 <zzo38> Quintopia: You can also run Haskell codes on lambdabot and on HackEgo
02:43:17 <Quintopia> i think i would fail miserably if i tried that
02:44:14 <oerjan> oh mismatched parenthesis
02:44:24 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
02:45:59 <elliott> oerjan: (return () `mplus` ...) actually does something?
02:46:11 <oerjan> of course this would be just the time for that autoscrolling bug of my touchpad driver to happen
02:46:27 <oerjan> Quintopia: result is 644 hth
02:47:23 <oerjan> elliott: sure, in this case the return () gives an alternative which halts the computation there with the current path, and then the part after does the prolonging alternative.
02:47:35 <elliott> > return () `mplus` [1,2,3]
02:47:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ()) arising from the literal ‘1’
02:47:42 <elliott> > return 0 `mplus` [1,2,3]
02:47:54 <Quintopia> oerjan: and this counts a->b and b->a as separate paths, yes?
02:47:54 <oerjan> the current path being in the StateT state
02:48:11 <oerjan> Quintopia: yes. also it does not repeat cells in the path.
02:48:59 <oerjan> well you can trust me, but _i_ don't trust that code not to have bugs hth
02:50:09 <Quintopia> but my faith that your code is correct is higher than my faith that random guy's code is correct
02:50:14 <oerjan> although the first 5 elements of paths do look plausible
02:50:39 <oerjan> [[(1,0),(0,0)],[(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(1,1),(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(0,1),(1,1),(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)]]
02:51:07 <oerjan> (the paths are backwards from the point the search starts)
02:51:39 <oerjan> there are 9 cells so, hm...
02:53:32 <oerjan> that's like a slightly better overestimate
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02:53:51 <Quintopia> the best underestimate i can think of is 256
02:54:14 <oerjan> and with some cells only having 1-3 neighbors - oh wait, except for the first only 3 can be used...
02:54:55 <oerjan> still an overestimate. i don't think it's so implausible that it's 644.
02:55:39 <Quintopia> that doesn't say much for the security of the combo lock on my smartphone then
02:55:41 <oerjan> i forgot paths don't all have length exactly 9. not that i think that matters much for this estimate.
02:55:59 <Quintopia> unless it locks down after too many wrong attempts. i don't think it does.
02:56:53 <oerjan> zzo38: actually HackEgo no longer has haskell
02:57:59 <Quintopia> oerjan: could you better explain me the bug you fixed. something like if the final node is adjacent to two visited vertices it counts the path twice?
02:58:42 <oerjan> <elliott> right, okay. weird <-- the StateT ... [] () just lifts the mplus of the underlying [] monad, btw
02:59:22 <zzo38> WHy does it no longer have Haskell though?
02:59:42 <oerjan> zzo38: Gregor didn't install haskell on the new server when he moved HackEgo
03:01:03 <zzo38> O, well you can still use Haskell on lambdabot although there are various restrictions if you do that.
03:01:50 <oerjan> Quintopia: yep, because the unless (next `elem` visited) test happens _after_ next has already been selected and thus, if the test fails for two different next's, they give two different "parallel computations" with the same result.
03:01:53 <zzo38> You could also see if you have access to a telnet or SSH with Haskell installed
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03:05:20 <oerjan> while my version works by simply failing the computation with no result at all in that case, and instead doing a return () before the recursive walk
03:06:16 <Quintopia> oerjan: the guy who wrote it thinks it's "obvious" that the test will happen after next has been selected. why does it fail in that case?
03:07:46 <oerjan> Quintopia: it fails because a result path is counted once for each "next" that stops it
03:09:01 <oerjan> and the next is not itself included in that path
03:16:13 <oerjan> Quintopia: yes, and so?
03:17:20 <Quintopia> he tested the line you pasted above and said it failed
03:18:03 <oerjan> i did fix a mismatched parenthesis
03:20:07 <oerjan> it should be let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
03:21:37 <oerjan> did he remember to include the other lines from the pastebin?
03:22:03 <Quintopia> i would assume so. they were in his repl after all
03:22:30 <oerjan> and also to re-let the following ones
03:22:36 <oerjan> so they use the new version
03:22:49 <oerjan> what kind of failure did he get
03:23:38 <oerjan> if he pasted from irssi there may be formatting problems due to line wrapping (i had to fix that)
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03:27:34 <oerjan> mapM_ (print.reverse) $ take 30 paths looks precisely as i would expect, and there are no duplicate paths.
03:28:38 <oerjan> ^v: are you a russian encrypted channel
03:29:49 <oerjan> Quintopia: well, not much i can do to help without a bug report hth
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03:37:56 <oerjan> so i did, confusion cleared up now
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03:40:24 <oerjan> ^v: we now agree that my haskell definition seems to work
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04:46:46 <zzo38> I am writing the C library for VM360, which is based on Ada/CS Object Machine, which is based on IBM 360/370 series mainframe computers.
04:47:44 <mcpherrin> zzo38: the IBM 360 was a sweet computer
04:48:05 <zzo38> mcpherrin: I don't know much about it though.
04:48:38 <mcpherrin> zzo38: a bunch of my coworkers used them
04:48:57 <mcpherrin> they were microcoded, which was pretty aweomse
04:49:21 <zzo38> Yes, I think it would be
04:49:38 <mcpherrin> apparently the IBM techs had various debugging microcode they could use
04:50:53 <mcpherrin> It would be sweet if you could get the actual microcode and run that in an emulator
04:52:07 <zzo38> Yes it could, but I don't have any such thing, nor is it what I am making.
04:59:18 <zzo38> How do I detect floating point underflow in a C code?
05:00:12 <^v> making malbolge
05:01:28 <^v> oh and it uses base 9
05:02:27 <Bike> ^v: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
05:03:58 <^v> > and take its decimal expansion
05:03:59 <lambdabot> ‘ito’ (imported from Control.Lens),
05:03:59 <lambdabot> ‘bits’ (imported from Data.Bits.Lens)Not in scope: ‘expansion’
05:04:03 <^v> > then you go fuck yourself.
05:04:04 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘then’
05:04:09 <^v> lambdabot, stahp
05:04:34 * ^v beats the shit out of lambdabot until it stops beeping
05:04:58 <^v> elliott, NOTICE atleast ;-;
05:05:01 <Bike> anyway: malbolge in a hilbert space
05:05:10 <elliott> it discourages starting lines with >
05:05:22 <^v> show the "not in scope" then notice them the "peraps you meant"
05:09:47 <^v> would anyone even want to try to use my malbolge?
05:29:17 <^v> Talk talk:Turing tarpit
05:29:17 <^v> pssst... spambots... edit this page so it gets protected... —ehird 19:01, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
05:29:17 <^v> Spambot: No.
05:38:08 <elliott> thank you, I do in fact remember writing that comment three years ago.
05:39:02 <Sgeo> "It is easy to figure out my speed, since I walk at a constant speed," Recordis said proudly.
05:42:07 <^v> A regular 4294967296-gon is constructible with straightedge and compass.
05:42:36 <kmc> that's news you can use
05:42:58 <Bike> procedure for drawing higher polygons with a straightedge and compass: just draw a fucking circle noone can tell the difference
05:43:18 <kmc> "2^32-agon" has a better ring to it
05:43:36 <Bike> four score and 2^32 ago
05:44:54 <kmc> I keep seeing a red lobster ad for "the ultimate, lobster topped lobster"
05:49:31 <Quintopia> Bike: if you draw one a thousand miles wide they can
05:50:03 <Bike> i am not going to do that
05:51:39 <^v> http://puu.sh/9a0uj/6964e4826c.png
05:51:43 <^v> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:51:53 <^v> why are my puushes long now D:
05:52:23 <Bike> excuse you, i'm at LEAST three fourths assing
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06:13:51 <Sgeo> These characters start with a deadline to understand using integrals for areas of 2 hours 56 minutes. They only start making progress with 9 minutes left.
06:15:18 <kmc> that sounds like every maths problems set I tried to do
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06:16:21 <kmc> also, I feel I should add, what
06:16:29 <Bike> yeah i'm having trouble parsing t his
06:16:47 <kmc> I assume Sgeo is watching anime in which people learn maths
06:18:02 <Sgeo> The Gremlin set fires in pools that will destroy the country unless the pools are filled with the exact amount of water needed
06:18:51 <shachaf> kmc: Blaketh taught me to play pool the other day
06:18:58 <shachaf> except i'm still confused about the rules and also bad at it
06:19:07 <Bike> you can like, fill a pool with water without computing how much water there is beforehand
06:19:51 <shachaf> is this a maths book in which there's a story and the moral of the story is you should've learned maths
06:20:00 <Sgeo> shachaf: the first part is right
06:20:04 <Bike> also integrals are really demoralizing as homework goes
06:20:13 <shachaf> or a meta-maths book where you have to use integrals or something to figure out how long it took people to learn maths
06:20:23 <Bike> i had an assignment to do fourier series of a bunch of functions and i pretty much gave up after one trig integral
06:20:43 <shachaf> integrals are a bit of a scow imo
06:21:32 <Sgeo> "Lunch right now?" the count cried. "It's 11:23 1/2 A.M.!"
06:21:39 <Bike> the fuck is a scow
06:21:50 <Sgeo> "We always have lunch at 11:23 1/2 A.M., on the dot," Recordis said.
06:24:34 <Sgeo> "I hope it's some easy number like 2 or 3," Recordis said. "We need to think of some letter to stand for the unknown base until we find out what it is."
06:24:50 <Sgeo> They turned to me, and I came up with another suggestion: that we let the letter e stand for the unknown base.
06:25:09 <elliott> Sgeo: if you quote much more it's going to rapidly exceed the bounds of fair use.
06:25:42 <elliott> (I may have ulterior motives for wishing to stop the unauthorised reproduction of bad books into IRC channels I'm in.)
06:25:46 <Bike> this prose sucks
06:26:03 <Bike> hey remember that time we got that ~esoteric~ book linked here
06:26:07 <Bike> that was like, a whole week ago
06:26:10 <Bike> man good times huh
06:27:15 <Sgeo> It's not a bad book! I love it! Just... the writing seems more blatantly written to serve the needs of the math, which does make sense
06:28:04 <Bike> that's how it always goes
06:28:16 <Bike> the plot and writing and characters are total s hit but you keep reading because you're a fucking nerd
06:29:06 <elliott> I respect your opinion and still think it's a bad book.
06:30:54 <Sgeo> At one point, someone slips while etching something on glass, so they decide to find the answer for what was accidentally etched
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07:56:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:56:54 <scp> Sweet rainbow
07:57:04 <scp> and thanks
07:57:09 <shachaf> `run ln -sf rwelcome bin/relcome
07:57:32 <HackEgo> scp: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:06:13 <oerjan> oh the `undo didn't reinstate links either...
08:08:25 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
08:10:55 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
08:13:06 <HackEgo> bin/rwelcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
08:13:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:15:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/welcome/welcome "$@"/' bin/welcome
08:15:39 <HackEgo> hi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:16:13 <HackEgo> hi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:16:23 <scp> I like the rainbow much better than the bold (as experienced via irssi)
08:16:37 <shachaf> Well, there are many variants.
08:16:41 <HackEgo> ScP: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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08:24:03 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.friendsofcoleridge.com/membersonly/Clayson_Ramsgate_files/borges.htm
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08:48:24 <scp> shachaf: that last example is way too optimistic about the case-insensitivity of the systems I use
08:53:19 <oerjan> hey we just fixed the url so it _should_ work...
08:53:30 <oerjan> before it didn't at all.
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09:10:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Was the "other way" just removing the main-page part from the URL?
09:16:07 <oerjan> back when the first `welcome was made, the link didn't work without the wiki/ at least
09:16:43 <oerjan> since there was a root page with links to the archive as well
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11:17:09 <fizzie> olsner: http://esolangs.org/forum/
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11:43:06 <myname> wait, there is a forum?
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12:08:31 <boily> the more I read about rust, the more it makes sense.
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13:37:29 <Slereah_> What languages did the Soviet Union use, outside of assemblyu
13:39:47 <Slereah_> Did they use capitalist swine languages or make their own
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13:48:28 <int-e> Bah. SO does not allow anonymous answers at all? I mean I can get the effect by making a new account, and they do not verify e-mail addresses, but there will be an account.
13:48:53 <int-e> it's just another stupid social media website.
13:51:16 <ais523> int-e: I think the intended purpose of Stack Overflow is to use gamification and social media techniques to trick people into contributing to an FAQ
13:52:18 <int-e> But I don't want to play that game. They tend suck up my time.
13:52:26 <int-e> IRC is bad enough :P
13:57:17 <boily> I should brush my teeth.
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14:18:53 <Slereah_> "I got interested in the Soviet space program and was interested to discover that the software on the Buran spacecraft circa 1988 was written in Prolog. "
14:19:37 <Slereah_> "The author himself participated in many early projects (mostly in hardware) and according to him analog hardware was in favor for a long time, he mentions that space rendezvous tasks didn't use digital computers until the late 70's."
14:20:29 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON
14:23:37 <int-e> nothing wrong with prolog, except for cuts and negation as failure ;-)
14:24:12 <int-e> (I prefer declarative programming languages)
14:24:26 <ais523> prolog with cut is a completely different language to prolog without cut
14:26:35 <FireFly> Slereah_: they at least invented their own hardware
14:26:43 <FireFly> you cited something related to that already
14:28:02 <FireFly> I think they had some ternary computers
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15:09:45 <Bike_> Slereah_: they started cloning western hardware in... i wanna say the 70s, and before that things were kind of prehistoric
15:09:51 <Bike_> Drakon and DSSP are the languages i can remember
15:10:51 <Bike_> here's a manuscript http://www.sigcis.org/?q=node/85
15:11:00 <Bike_> it's mostly about the relay era, but still interesting
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15:12:57 <Bike> i'm semi-aware of a book on the space coomputers, but it's only in Russian and i don't know anything about it beyond the ISBN
15:15:15 <int-e> analogue computers make sense. you don't have to worry about clocks, A/D and D/A conversion, and the associated latencies.
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15:16:35 <int-e> I wonder where the cited cost savings for ternary computers come from and whether there is anything like CMOS (which cut down power consumption of binary computers tremendously) for ternary logic.
15:18:05 <int-e> (with emphasis on the "C"omplementary part)
15:18:14 <Bike> setun was 1958, they sure as fuck weren't using ICs
15:18:46 <int-e> I cannot fathom what a ternary logic gate would look like.
15:20:21 <Bike> http://www.computer-museum.ru/english/setun.htm here, have a badly translated article about it
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15:20:49 <Bike> i guess "Threshold realization of threevalued logic on electromagnetic elements" would be the paper
15:21:26 <ais523> I think ternary may have been killed by the miniaturization of circuits
15:21:33 <ais523> small transistors only work properly at low voltages
15:21:44 <ais523> meaning three voltage levels become much harder to distinguish than two
15:22:02 <ais523> there's been a steady downward decline in the voltages computers use internally, because of this
15:22:16 <Bike> http://en.trinary.ru/projects/setunws/ i recommend switching randomly
15:26:10 <Bike> also try pushing buttons
15:27:13 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages
15:29:29 <Slereah_> قلب (qlb) – an Arabic Scheme-like programming language exploring the role of human culture in coding[22]
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17:05:05 <Leb> !bfjoust almost_a_vibrator >(+-)*100000
17:05:18 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_almost_a_vibrator: 7.4
17:05:56 <ais523> Leb: the main way that program wins without the > is that opponents think they've cleared the flag and move on
17:06:19 <ais523> with the >, if that happens, the enemy program will just assume it cleared a decoy and move on to the flag
17:07:00 <Leb> yes, it was supposed to mostly draw
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17:33:20 <FireFly> While on the topic of weird old russian computers, there's also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_for_operations_with_functions
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17:49:32 <Bike> i love operations with functions!
17:49:52 <Bike> Slereah_: i think i saw an article on that one. turns out most editors barf on rtl text, who knew
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18:41:37 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_selfie "A space selfie is a selfie (self-portrait photograph typically posted on social media sites) that is taken in space."
18:42:06 <kmc> v. encyclopædic
18:43:08 <Jafet> Serious topics in the mainstream news
18:46:51 <Bike> Space selfies can be dated back to 1976 when the lander of the Viking 2 mission took the photo of its deck after landing on Mars; however they were not considered by Discovery News as a true selfie in its list of top 10 space robot selfies.
18:47:14 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty
18:47:30 <Bike> i mean that dusty
18:49:27 <Jafet> There have been worse selfies
18:50:27 <kmc> list of top 10 space robot selfies
18:50:29 <kmc> quality journalism
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19:46:30 <zzo38> Do you know of any C program to parse a Haskell syntax?
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20:18:57 <zzo38> I want to use a object notation (like JSON or XML or YAML or whatever), but having the features like: * Data types: string, integer, floating-point, null, record, reference, list, foreign-function-call. * External text encoding (if used from a C program, you can therefore make up any text encoding you want). * Non-indentation-sensitive syntax. * An object can be tagged with a name, and referenced before, after, and/or inside of that object.
20:19:33 <zzo38> O, and perhaps also simple macros.
20:19:44 <Bike> macros in data?
20:20:57 <zzo38> Yes; I want to specify a macro for a certain data structure and use the macro many times just filling in the parameters that differ. Similar to a C macro, kind of.
20:21:34 <FireFly> Doesn't some lisps have a way of encoding recursive structures using some # syntax?
20:21:53 <FireFly> I know that SpiderMonkey (JS) does, and I think that was borrowed from some lisp
20:21:56 <zzo38> I don't know, but I am not trying to make recursive structures anyways
20:22:03 <olsner> using libz is almost like automatically determining a suitable set of macros
20:22:15 <FireFly> Well, I was thinking about the "give a name of a subexpression and re-use it" part
20:22:49 <FireFly> Oh, hm, maybe that's not what you meant with giving a name to an object and referencing it
20:22:55 <Bike> it seems that zzo wants parameters.
20:22:56 <zzo38> FireFly: No, I meant to reference it, not re-use it. Furthermore, multiple same expressions with different names can also be considered different references.
20:23:15 <Bike> like foo(x) = [4,x,4,4,4,4], and then have a data structure of [foo(7),foo(4)]
20:23:52 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, to have a macro like that.
20:25:26 <zzo38> Actually macro could be considered as the same datatype as a foreign-function-call; the differences is just that a macro is defined inside of the data file, and then a foreign-function-call will call a C function or whatever (and which might create an opaque object of its own type, or do other things, including possibly side-effects).
20:25:52 <Bike> man i've always wanted to call out to C from json,
20:25:56 <FireFly> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Sharp_variables_in_JavaScript aha
20:26:51 <Bike> that's pretty lol
20:27:25 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes I have seen that
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20:45:05 <zzo38> I can try to make up such format but I don't know what it is called!
20:45:33 <Bike> Zzo's Cool Data Storage Format
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20:47:13 <zzo38> Maybe I should abbreviate it? Then it would be called "ZCDSF"
20:47:28 <Bike> good thinking.
20:47:30 <zzo38> I suppose it is OK
20:51:10 <oerjan> <myname> wait, there is a forum? <-- only the archive. it was hardly ever used and overrun with spam, so when elliott took over from graue he made it readonly.
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20:53:38 <oerjan> <Slereah_> Did they use capitalist swine languages or make their own <-- i do recall reading about refal, which seemed interesting.
20:53:52 <callforjudgement> but the wiki's better for the sort of thing you'd normally use a forum for, IMO
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20:54:43 <oerjan> i think it mainly existed because graue had a sort of hangup that the wiki _shouldn't_ be used as a forum.
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20:59:27 <oerjan> <int-e> Bah. SO does not allow anonymous answers at all? I mean I can get the effect by making a new account, and they do not verify e-mail addresses, but there will be an account. <-- that's weird, my first SO answer was definitely unregistered. although i _did_ use my real name and probably gave my email address, it wasn't made into a "real" account until after i had to go through hoops to get it back because my cookies had long since expired.
21:00:12 <oerjan> i suppose they're really sort of accounts anyway.
21:00:25 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/users/3696868/user3696868
21:01:26 <oerjan> yeah that's probably as anonymous as it gets.
21:01:32 <int-e> I guess "Unregistered" is there way of saying that it's not a full account yet.
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21:03:06 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
21:03:45 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
21:04:05 <lambdabot> foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs
21:04:16 <int-e> these are all lies
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21:04:34 <Vorpal> I just discovered a USB memory stick in a pocket after taking out a pair of jeans from the closet. Surprisingly it works just fine, even though it would have gone through the washing machine.
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21:04:59 <int-e> foldl :: forall a b. (b -> a -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
21:04:59 <int-e> foldl k z0 xs = foldr (\(v::a) (fn::b->b) (z::b) -> fn (k z v)) (id :: b -> b) xs z0
21:05:07 <int-e> is what GHC.List does for foldl :)
21:05:16 <myname> Vorpal: not that surprising
21:05:21 <oerjan> int-e: hm that's the new fusable version, i guess?
21:05:27 <int-e> myname: @src takes definitions from the Haskell report, mostly.
21:05:33 <lambdabot> sortBy cmp = foldr (insertBy cmp) []
21:05:43 <lambdabot> insertBy cmp x ys@(y:ys') = case cmp x y of
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21:06:01 <Vorpal> myname, well, I would have expected the electronics to get damaged by the wash, after all it is not just water, there is the detergent too
21:06:06 <int-e> oerjan: yes I think so.
21:06:35 <olsner> maybe you just forgot to wash them and put them in the closet dirty
21:07:14 <Vorpal> olsner, no, I'm sure that was not the case, I put used clothes on a hanger behind the door, rather than in the closet
21:07:27 <int-e> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7994 is the ticket corresponding to that change to foldl.
21:07:39 <Vorpal> Given that "workflow" it is extremely unlikely to not have gone through the washing machine
21:07:53 <Bike> i apparently read 'detergent' as a lab thing now, woo
21:08:28 <Vorpal> Bike, is it not the correct English word?
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21:22:40 <kmc> hi party people
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21:24:38 <oerjan> kmc: are you a drug or a complexity class
21:25:31 <kmc> i seem to be a verb
21:26:03 <kmc> if you find out, let me know
21:26:51 <nortti> also, kMc is initialism of "kilomegacycles" according to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kmc
21:27:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Kyoto hotel room view, handheld: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140601-view.jpg
21:28:45 <fizzie> Two adjacent SI prefixes, how rude.
21:29:20 <int-e> fizzie: is that composed of 4 pictures?
21:29:51 <int-e> oh. five. I missed one glitch :)
21:29:57 <oerjan> no they really make the rails like that in kyoto
21:30:45 <fizzie> I though it'd be best to make the actual view match, rather than the railing.
21:30:46 <int-e> (the rightmost one)
21:31:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but rotate around the nodal point
21:31:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, when were you there?
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21:31:57 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but I didn't take a tripod with me in the first place.
21:32:19 * Sgeo reads http://davidwalsh.name/3d-websockets keeping in mind that what he's planning isn't so massive that I need this 'partitioning' business
21:32:20 <fizzie> And we came back, uh... this Friday, I think. It's a bit fuzzy.
21:32:28 <oerjan> what, the complexity zoo has only one class starting with k
21:32:42 <oerjan> (and then promptly ending)
21:33:02 <Vorpal> Btw, I'm having fun with DF atm, haven't played it for ages
21:33:17 <Vorpal> Having fun with this new minecart thing
21:35:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: We'll be doing a quick Stockholm-Kolmården-Linköping-Örebro-Stockholm drive-around soonishly, too.
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21:38:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I was in the Chinese park this friday. Very nice and quiet, the weather wasn't the best. Even rained a bit. I like that though
21:40:38 <Taneb> Ethernet port isn't working for someo reason.
21:40:41 <fizzie> That's on our list of stops. Assuming we can find it. (Which we probably will; I've got the coordinates, and seen the signposts in Street View.)
21:40:53 <Vorpal> Taneb, OS? Did it work before?
21:41:02 <Vorpal> Is the other end connected?
21:41:04 <Taneb> Vorpal, don't think it's OS
21:41:06 <Taneb> It has worked before
21:41:07 <Vorpal> Have you tried rebooting?
21:41:24 <Taneb> It's good until the wall
21:41:28 <Taneb> I have tried rebooting
21:41:33 <kmc> itym "have you tried turning it off and on again"
21:41:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, the OS question was more a question of: "what commands should I suggest"
21:41:53 <kmc> back in my day I had to edit kernel modules with busybox sed to get my ethernet port working
21:42:06 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm going to try waiting a day or two first
21:42:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, how will that help
21:42:18 <Taneb> It was working last night
21:42:24 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway you should try connecting it to another device
21:42:35 <Taneb> I don't have any other ethernet devices
21:42:45 <oerjan> have you tried smashing it with a hammer twh hth
21:42:51 <Taneb> I don't have a hammer :(
21:42:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway what about ifconfig? What does it say? ifconfig -a if it isn't listed at all
21:43:00 <kmc> mcpherrin: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/12/hex-editing-linux-kernel-modules-to.html
21:43:02 <Zuu> Cant touch me!
21:43:08 <Zuu> HAMMER TIME!
21:43:27 <Taneb> Vorpal, ifconfig looks friendly
21:43:29 <mcpherrin> kmc: oh yeah I've read this post :p
21:43:40 <mcpherrin> kmc: I totally knew your blog before I knew you :p
21:43:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, so what does it say with respect to eth0 or whatever your ethernet interface is
21:43:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, I ought to be doing revision, so I'm going to live with this workaround
21:44:04 <oerjan> Zuu: now be glad i don't have a hammer
21:44:09 <Taneb> "UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST"
21:44:20 <Vorpal> Taneb, no inet address though?
21:44:30 <Taneb> inet6 addr: fe80::5604:a6ff:feb4:8a1c/64 Scope:Link
21:44:41 <kmc> mcpherrin: :)
21:44:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, Right, only link ipv6, no actual ipv4
21:44:49 <boily> oerjan: oh, the swatter! can I mapole him too?
21:44:49 <Bike> oh, internet problems
21:44:51 <kmc> i wanna say "i get that a lot" but it's more like I get that occasionally
21:44:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, I guess dhcp could be dead?
21:44:58 <Bike> i get that a nonzero amount
21:45:11 <Taneb> I'm not sure what dhcp is
21:45:17 <oerjan> boily: hey we're supposed to make him _happy_ we're not using hammers
21:45:21 <Bike> it's the thing that gets you an ip address
21:45:29 <Zuu> oerjan: but... hammers are hammerlicious
21:45:34 <Taneb> Then I don't think I can do anything about that
21:45:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, the thing that makes it so that you don't have to manually input ip and so on for your computer
21:45:55 <Bike> but uh, does it say he has an inet6 addr there, or is that the router. i forget how ifconfig works
21:46:08 <Vorpal> Taneb, instead it sends a broadcast message like "hey give me IP and netmask and all that shiz!" and the DHCP server replies with the requested info
21:46:20 <boily> oerjan: it's not a hammer, it just looks like one.
21:46:44 <Vorpal> Bike, it is a link ipv6
21:46:48 <Taneb> I think the issue may be that it's only given me an IPv6 addr but only has an IPv4 connection to the outside world?
21:46:51 <boily> (besides, my grilf and I went to the Musée d'Art Contemporain today. I'm not sure what things should be looking like now.)
21:46:53 <Vorpal> Bike, it is auto-assigned based on the MAC
21:46:57 <kmc> your computer is broadcasting an ip address
21:47:00 <Vorpal> Bike, it means nothing in other words
21:47:52 <Vorpal> Bike, "real" ipv6 would have Scope:Global
21:48:02 <int-e> that's a link-local address. "Link-local addresses for IPv4 are defined in the address block 169.254.0.0/16, in CIDR notation. In IPv6, they are assigned with the fe80::/10 prefix."
21:48:05 <Bike> too complicated
21:48:27 <Vorpal> int-e, I wonder why I don't see the ipv4 ones normally
21:48:33 <oerjan> boily: ceci n'est pas un marteau
21:48:36 <Vorpal> but there is always the ipv6 ones it seems
21:48:38 <zzo38> OK, now I wrote the ZCDSF specification.
21:48:44 <int-e> which means it will not get you very far
21:49:05 <int-e> Vorpal: maybe because it's more dangerous to pick one of only 2^16 addresses at random.
21:49:19 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/zcdsf.txt Can you please review this to see what it is?
21:50:22 <oerjan> it's a data format hth
21:50:53 <zzo38> I meant to make a opinion/question/comment/complaint about it, please.
21:51:18 <int-e> zzo38: 4Hello a 4 followed by a name or "ello" as a hollerith string?
21:52:40 <zzo38> int-e: It is a hollerith string. If you do not want that, put a space in between, although a number followed immediately by a name is not a valid data anyways.
21:54:31 <zzo38> I believe that in all such cases where ambiguity of being more than one token is possible, making them multiple tokens will not result in a valid file anyways.
21:55:32 <zzo38> If you find a counterexample, then please tell me.
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22:01:27 <int-e> zzo38: you're probably right, but it'd be easier to reason about if "H" was not a name, but another special character.
22:02:57 <int-e> oh and I did not understand what you mean by "extra semicolons" in the description of records and lists.
22:03:20 <zzo38> OK, yes perhaps using * would be better; I may fix that
22:03:42 <zzo38> What I mean by "extra semicolons" is, for example, [1;2;3;4;5] is valid and so is [1;;;2;3;4;;;;;;5;]
22:03:54 <zzo38> Perhaps I should clarify that.
22:03:56 <int-e> I mean as I read it, [1;2;;;;4] would be ok, but [[1;2;;;;4]] wouldn't, because there are extra ; inside the first item of that list.
22:04:15 <int-e> And I assume that's not the intended meaning.
22:04:31 <int-e> in fact "extra ;" is not really defined.
22:08:04 <zzo38> That isn't intended meaning.
22:08:10 <int-e> I sort of dislike the flexibility of the encoding (ASN ambiguities are one important way of breaking the SSL certificate infrastructure, where a CA believes it's signing a certificate for A, whereas the browser thinks it's for B)
22:08:19 <zzo38> [[1;2;;;;4]] is OK and means the same as [[1;2;4]]
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22:11:05 <Sgeo> Grr why isn't --disable-web-security working
22:11:57 <Jafet> In what software is that not the default?
22:12:25 <int-e> zzo38: perhaps make it explicit that extra semicolons are permitted immediately after the [ and immediately after each list item.
22:12:26 <zzo38> int-e: OK, I fixed to use * instead of H and added a section about clarification.
22:12:27 <Sgeo> There we go, had to completely exit Chrome
22:12:43 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK, perhaps I should write that instead; it is a better way to say it.
22:13:28 <Sgeo> Are there any actual malicious sites out there waiting to prey on anyone who happens to have --disable-web-security active?
22:14:22 <Jafet> There are malicious sites that activate when a cosmic ray hits your DNS server
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22:15:58 * oerjan now imagines if that gave the DNS server superpowers instead
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22:17:29 <mcpherrin> Jafet: yeah, I've seen network switches mis-forwarding traffic due to a bit flip
22:19:07 <zzo38> int-e: Maybe you don't like ASN ambiguities, although what kind of flexibility you need depends on the application.
22:20:27 <int-e> zzo38: yes. you didn't state any requirements or rationale of any kind, so there ...
22:20:53 <zzo38> You are right I didn't. Should I have done?
22:21:11 <int-e> I don't know, it depends on your requirements ;)
22:22:11 <int-e> If you ask me, some sort of scope and context would be nice, but such things tend to be tedious to actually write.
22:23:38 <int-e> And obviously they are not necessary to use such a format.
22:24:59 <zzo38> I know, these reasons are the ones why I didn't write such a thing.
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22:27:33 <zzo38> One thing is that it is simple and flexible, and supports macros and references.
22:27:45 <zzo38> These are some of the important reasons to me.
22:29:42 <int-e> hmm. macros - is there a way to find the end of a macro without knowing its implementation?
22:31:52 <int-e> zzo38: I guess you never really say what a macro invocation looks like. am I missing anything?
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22:38:06 <zzo38> int-e: Yes; a macro invocation always expands to a data value. I thought I mentioned that.
22:41:55 <int-e> zzo38: yet you do not say what it looks like. a macro *definition* has the shape Name(Arg1,Arg2,Name1=Foo1,Name2=Foo2), and presumably that also holds for the invocation, but it's not stated.
22:42:19 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK, I will fix that. You are correct though
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22:49:39 <zzo38> Tell me if anything else may be wrong/confusing!
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23:06:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you know of any C program to parse a Haskell syntax? <-- hugs is written in C so probably contains some...
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23:08:18 <Taneb> zzo38, one of my friends wrote one! Somewhere in https://github.com/ThatOtherPerson/dhc
23:09:12 <oerjan> <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty <-- "The image was acquired while MAHLI's clear dust cover was closed." so possibly not quite.
23:09:43 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty <-- "The image was acquired while MAHLI's clear dust cover was closed." so possibly not quite.
23:11:06 <Bike> dust doesn't ahve to be inside the camera...
23:11:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure mars gets dust storms.
23:11:43 <oerjan> (also iirc most of that dust is rust)
23:11:52 <Bike> @clear-messages
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23:40:06 <zzo38> Now I added a introduction. Is it OK?
23:48:34 <zzo38> In case a format specification is required at the beginning of the file, you can use the following (which is a comment and ignored by ZCDSF): #!/usr/bin/valid-zcdsf
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23:50:32 <zzo38> It is not necessary to have a file on your computer called /usr/bin/valid-zcdsf in order to use this.
23:50:58 <FreeFull> oerjan: Mozilla should have just sent a mars rover
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