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01:08:09 <FossilCodger> Hi, somebody, there is anybody available? (Excuse me for the bad Englis...)
01:10:44 <FossilCodger> I joined to this IRC, just because I would like to announce, that I created a new programming language, named "mau".
01:11:55 <Bike> you should write an article for it on the wiki, probably. we get notices of wiki edits here.
01:12:01 <FossilCodger> The novatime newest, 15th release downloadable at this link: http://parancssor.info/mau/mau15release.tar.bz2
01:12:31 <oerjan> well we would, if HackEgo wasn't abducted by evil scientists
01:13:28 <FossilCodger> Okay, just my biggest problem that I have very low english knowledge! I understand enough good the written english documentation, but my knowledge sure not enough good to written articles..
01:14:11 <FossilCodger> And my language is not the English, but the Hungarian. The documentation of my "mau" interpreter language is more as 200 pages in odt format.
01:14:33 <Bike> you might be better off converting it to pdf or something
01:14:52 <Bike> but, you may as well make a page. then people can proofread it and such
01:14:58 <elliott> your english seems pretty good to me
01:15:27 <madbr> you should make a page on the esolang wiki -> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:15:36 <FossilCodger> This language very usable for serious, daily scripting work, I use it daily, under 64 bits Linux operating system, but in the above download link available the source code, and can compile it for 32 bits systems too.
01:15:50 <oerjan> we just need to gently persuade b_jonas to translate it, should be easy -----###
01:16:27 <Bike> so what's esoteric about it
01:16:38 <elliott> wow, these example programs are pretty great.
01:17:11 <elliott> is … actually part of the syntax? :D
01:18:27 <Bike> ah yes. seeing the esotericism
01:18:59 <FossilCodger> Hi, friends, the parancssor.info is my own domain. The hungarian word "parancssor" mean in English: "commandline".
01:19:32 <FossilCodger> In this subforum: http://parancssor.info/forum/index.php?board=20.0 is more topic with USABLE, usefull mau programs!
01:21:07 <FossilCodger> And in the downloadable package you can find more example programs, for ekzample the "vidir" programs in mau language!
01:21:33 <FossilCodger> The original vidir written in Perl, but I created it in mau too.
01:23:01 <FossilCodger> An example for a cycle in mau: {| 26 ?c #s@s[[{|}]][#c@k]; /; |}
01:25:03 <FossilCodger> The above example is a cycle, which run 26 times, and print a character in every first string from the @s stringarray. It print from every string the character which has the index in the @k unsigned char variable.
01:27:41 <FossilCodger> here are an example program whit english comments, excuse me for the bad grammar:
01:27:43 <FossilCodger> !mau // maudir program. // Author: Viola Zoltán, violazoli@gmail.com // This program created in the programming language named "mau". That programming language created by I, Viola Zoltán, too. // Licence GPL, boot. // Constans: #s@P="/tmp"; // Path for the temporary file for the editing with the text editor in the $EDITOR environment variable #c@c='-; // character for the empty spaces of pidstring #c@p=6; // max length of th
01:31:16 <FossilCodger> Okay, now I created to my forum an english section, and now already available in them the first mau example program - the vidir in mau language - with english comments! The link to this subforum: http://parancssor.info/forum/index.php?topic=121.0
01:31:39 <madbr> do you have a page describing the language in english?
01:33:32 <FossilCodger> @madbr: sorry, not, because I not have enough good english! As I wrote above, I created now a subforum, and in that now available a long example, but I cannot translate the full >200 page documentation...
01:36:22 <madbr> right, 200 pages is kinda long
01:36:38 <madbr> but it might be cool to have just some kind of broad intro
01:37:24 <FossilCodger> If would be lot of peoples having interest to the mau language, of course I try translate the cheaf parts of the syntax, usability, other needed knowledge, but it will very bad in the English grammar, therefore I need somebody to correct my bad english text!
01:39:29 <madbr> it should be good practice for getting better at that :D
01:39:45 <FossilCodger> This language support all types of the C, - signed/unsigned char/int/longint, float, double, long double, string, and other string designed for UTF-8 encoded characters, arrays...
01:40:53 <madbr> what's its design goal?
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01:41:16 <FossilCodger> It has lot of variants for cycles, switch, it can handle bitfields...
01:41:32 <FossilCodger> The slogan: "The programming language with efficient line noise"
01:42:40 <FossilCodger> Just in the mau it is not named "for", but {| or {( or other symbol variants.
01:43:14 <FossilCodger> Oh, yes, eh, English... Yes, LOOPS, f*ck my crazy mind...
01:45:59 <madbr> is it a bit like APL?
01:46:55 <FossilCodger> If somebody ready to correct my bad Enlglish, I translate the documentation. In this case, send me email to this: violazoli at gmail point com.
01:48:04 <FossilCodger> My goal, that I have my own programming language, because I have like and interest to creating it, and that this language is a strictly type language.
01:48:05 <madbr> apl is famous for using a bunch of rare hard to type characters, and having lots of special operators (for doing operations on arrays)
01:48:38 <FossilCodger> In every function strictly, which variable type usable.
01:49:09 <FossilCodger> Not as in the Bash or other common scripting language. My casting operator is the "#".
01:51:12 <madbr> so it's easy to do very compact programs in apl because the operators will do whole loops for you
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01:55:56 <madbr> do you have structs or objects?
01:57:09 <FossilCodger> Not yet, but planning. I will enlarge my language to OOP. But not now, because first I create my own regexp implementation. This will usefull and necessary to the objectorientad parts...
01:57:40 <FossilCodger> But mau has function, and every function has own namespace.
01:58:12 <madbr> it has functions? but can you store a whole function inside a variable?
01:59:06 <FossilCodger> And the mau has built-in "variables" for the directory structure, and inputfiles, outputfiles, stacks...
01:59:35 <madbr> does it have arrays?
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02:00:34 <FossilCodger> excuse me I dont understand your question. Of course, variables can handle only datas. But in a #l type variable you can put a label of a function!
02:00:56 <FossilCodger> In the mau, almost every things can to be indirect.
02:02:23 <FossilCodger> For example, you has a subrutine labeled with §in. Now, yo type: #g@c=§in; And later: »#g@c; this is a jump to the label which are in the #g@c variable. Indirect jumping.
02:02:59 <elliott> madbr means "array" as in "int x[5] = ..." in C
02:03:15 <FossilCodger> Yes, arrays available in the mau. All single type has its arrays too. For ekzample:
02:03:32 <FossilCodger> #c@c - this is a single variable, unsigned char.
02:04:01 <FossilCodger> #c@c[index] - this is an array of unsigned chars.
02:04:29 <FossilCodger> #s@s="This is a single string variable constans";
02:04:31 <madbr> and can you change the size of arrays once they are created?
02:05:13 <FossilCodger> #s@s[[arrayindex]][stringindex] - this is a character of a string from a stringarray.
02:07:12 <FossilCodger> After creation of the stringarray, the size not changeable yet, but if the mau community would like this possibility, I built it, no problem... :)
02:07:36 <FossilCodger> But the strings automatically grow up if necessary. For ekzample:
02:09:22 <FossilCodger> #s@a="string"; This string is from 6 characters. Now you do: #s@a[8]=g; You now probed giving the "g" character to the 8th place of the string. This place momently no exist, but this is no problem, the string grow up to the 8th characters.
02:09:36 <Bike> What fills the void?
02:11:17 <madbr> "but can you store a whole function inside a variable?" -> some languages let you do that
02:11:30 <madbr> you can more or less create whole new functions real time
02:11:57 <FossilCodger> In the mau available 2 string types. The "common" has the #s casting operator. In the above case, the void places imply random memory trash. But the second string type, whith the #U casting operator - this is designed for the UTF-8 encoded characters - strictly fill up the void places with spaces.
02:14:39 <FossilCodger> I already use the mau daily, because I use my LFS-based Linux with the DWM window manager, and I wrote/created my statusbar program in the mau. And the menu program for the DWM, exist in mau too. And my gmail watcher program is written in mau, too. And my english-hungarian dictionary too...
02:15:41 <FossilCodger> And my own colored listener program in place of the "ls", written in mau, too. And the "vidir" clone in mau, too.
02:18:52 <FossilCodger> And the mau has built-in QuickSort routine/function.
02:20:14 <FossilCodger> The mau also PLUGINABLE! The (sorry, hungarian language...) documentation has fully knowledgebase chapter about, how can you write plugins to the mau interpreter in C/C++ language!
02:21:02 <madbr> probably the only esoteric language to have that, ever :D
02:21:09 <FossilCodger> With this methode, you can see the mau as only a skeleton to a fully-featured interpreter language, and to them you can create your OWN programming language!
02:21:56 <FossilCodger> Of course, all/every built-in mau command/function REWRITABLE, you can redefine its token with your plugins!
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02:24:05 <FossilCodger> Excuse me, I hope that I am no a smart alec too, but I think, that in the esoteric-group of the existing programming language, the mau is the GOD, because this is a VERY USABLE language!
02:24:36 <madbr> esoteric languages are rarely designed for usability
02:25:58 <Bike> yes, the brainfuck's design goal was as small a compiler as possible.
02:26:03 <FossilCodger> Otherwise I tell you, that the mau has built-in brainfuck-interpreter too...
02:26:42 <madbr> many are designed for pure mindfuck power, to expand your mind on what can be a computer language
02:27:02 <FossilCodger> Brainfuck is interest, yes. But Not usable for the daily work. I like it, but not usable for a fast scripting work. The mau yes.
02:27:29 <madbr> my favorite in this "mind expanding" category is unlambda: http://esolangs.org/wiki/unlambda
02:28:57 <FossilCodger> Okay, but my goal was not the mind expanding. I am a novelist. And for my sci-fi stories needed a new programming language. I created it. And, I planned it that it should be an usable tool for my daily linux work too.
02:30:30 <FossilCodger> begin with $: hexadecimal, for ekzample #fc or $FCe2
02:30:50 <Sgeo> As long as 0 isn't used as the octal indicator I'm happy.
02:31:07 <madbr> yeah does anyone still use octal?
02:31:24 <Bike> yes. numbers starting with 0 being octal is obnoxious, is all.
02:31:53 <FossilCodger> abcd....xABCD...X: an unsigned character, the ASCII code of the character.
02:31:56 <madbr> yeah starting with 0 producing octal is like... automatic non-obvious bugs
02:32:04 <Bike> FossilCodger: not unicode?
02:32:48 <Bike> you said "ASCII code".
02:34:05 <FossilCodger> #c@c=a; - in this case you give the ASCII code of "a" to the unsigned char variable named @c.
02:35:25 <FossilCodger> #u@a="ω"; - in this case you give to the UTF-8 character variable named @a, the byte sequences of the UTF-8 encoded multibyte character ω.
02:36:23 <Sgeo> Why was I able to copy/paste an image?
02:36:31 <Sgeo> Since when does img's alt do that?
02:37:02 <Bike> that is a square
02:37:05 <Bike> well, rectangle
02:37:10 <FossilCodger> I cannot give to you answer, I am newbie in the IRC.
02:38:23 <FossilCodger> As you can see, the function names can has any UTF-8 encoded characters.
02:38:34 <Sgeo> Bike: that is a vulcan hand salute
02:38:47 <Bike> vulcans have weird hands.
02:40:02 <FossilCodger> Function names should give between the „ and ” symbols.
02:40:15 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/28czh2/announcing_unicode_70/
02:40:33 <FossilCodger> For ekzample, a function named with the Sarasvati hindu godness, mahadevi:
02:41:33 <FossilCodger> Or, a function, named (dedicated) the Loved One singerin, the hebrew Ofra Haza:
02:41:56 <Sgeo> U+F809324230B034C43DA9123880EE8034588A8340994858CFD841351: BEAR JUGGLING SIX DIFFERENTLY-SIZED MELONS WHILE WEARING BEANIE WITH LOPSIDED PROPELLER
02:44:00 <Sgeo> Ok Chrome, you obviously have a font that supports PILE OF POO because that's exactly what I see in my address bar right now
02:44:35 <FossilCodger> Levitating man... superfluous. The Unicode implement all useless shit.
02:47:24 <FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode committee is untrustly, the 4 bytes will not enough lot, because I see the all superfluous trash will implemented to the unicode.
02:48:31 <Bike> i thought the point of utf-8 was not fixing a length.
02:49:13 <coppro> < FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode
02:49:28 <coppro> `addquote <FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode committee is untrustly, the 4 bytes will not enough lot, because I see the all superfluous trash will implemented to the unicode.
02:49:50 <FossilCodger> UTF-8 is novatimes max 4 bytes, but in the first time it was 6 bytes planned.
02:50:24 <FossilCodger> The UTF-8 structure can expandable to maximum 8 bytes, as I know.
02:50:54 <elliott> I think "novatimes" should be adopted as an actual english word.
02:51:17 <Bike> what's it mean, i can't tell
02:51:25 <madbr> sounds like a medicine brand
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02:54:32 <FossilCodger> The mau can special variables for the benchmarks, too.
02:54:50 <coppro> where did we find this guy?
02:55:02 <Bike> they came in a few hours ago to talk about t heir esolang.
02:55:18 <madbr> just logged on and started talking yes
02:56:19 <FossilCodger> Just I have lot of difficulity in the English, I am sorry & excuse me.
02:58:41 <FossilCodger> And the mau has the "test" function of the bash, too.
02:59:41 <FossilCodger> For ekzample, you can open a file in the memory (RAM), you write to them the records, and if finish, you handle the memory area as a string...
03:01:06 <FossilCodger> This mau command: ||| #s@a t; cut the @a string to parts into the string-array named "t".
03:04:53 <FossilCodger> Hi, guys, has the esolangs community an own forum?
03:06:03 <FossilCodger> Because if not, I welcome open in my forum a part for the eso languages. This domain paid for the next 5 years already...
03:07:17 <elliott> it used to have a forum. now we just use the wiki
03:09:29 <FossilCodger> Okay Elliot, then, if you think that this is a good idea, write to the wiki please, that the official forum of the esolangs is in the parancssor.info/forum/... - to the "..." I write the name what you would like, and open that subforum now!
03:13:21 <Sgeo> The heck...? http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/28ffsc/world_cup_json_rails_backend_for_a_scraper_that/
03:13:28 <Sgeo> Why was that posted to /r/Python
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03:30:24 <Sgeo> Apparently Go uses global variables a bunch by default
03:30:31 <Sgeo> And was just told 'you don't have to use them'
03:37:01 <Sgeo> (And possibly most don't use the default global variables, but it's still concerning)
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03:56:46 <madbr> what's the cool thing to put in a fungeroid
03:57:35 <madbr> It's going to be hard to have a "write to program/read from program at X/Y" instruction tho
03:58:18 <madbr> unless it takes a line number for Y and a string for X
03:58:52 <zzo38> Do you know how 16-bit samples are stored in a .XM music?
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04:03:04 <madbr> I haven't read the specs for XM
04:03:33 <madbr> for s3m and IT there's a table of pointers to sample headers in the file header
04:04:17 <madbr> I can't remember what IT does from there but for s3m this header contains a pointer to the sample data
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04:06:13 <madbr> can't remember if the sample data was unsigned or signed but I think it's the reverse from the usual
04:06:36 <madbr> (and might be different between 8 and 16 bits)
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04:15:51 <zzo38> The specs for XM do have a few things missing actually but I have been able to fill in those missing things. Someone else already made a version with many mistakes corrected, but still has a few mistakes. I know where samples are stored, but not the format of 16-bit samples.
04:16:05 <zzo38> 8-bit samples in XM are encoded as delta values.
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04:33:01 <zzo38> I am trying to extend AmigaMML with such feature.
04:35:09 <zzo38> I also want to add a percussion synthesizer; do you have advice how to do such a things?
04:36:23 <madbr> depends how realistic you want it to be
04:36:59 <madbr> and what hardware you're targetting
04:38:06 <madbr> drums are essentially a large impulse + some noise going through a whole bunch of bandpass filters (like 40 bandpass filters in parallel)
04:38:18 <zzo38> I don't really care much to be realistic but want it good quality nevertheless.
04:39:09 <madbr> kick can be done with essentially a wave going down in pitch fast
04:40:13 <madbr> hihat is a mess of high frequencies... on an FM synth you can do them by setting osc frequencies super high and playing some ridiculously high note and letting it create some frequency mess due to aliasing... but this doesn't work on non-fm synths
04:40:26 <madbr> failing that, just some noise isn't bad
04:41:24 <madbr> snare is kinda touchy, it needs some lower frequency thump (essentially low frequency noice) BEFORE the high frequency SHHH from the snares
04:42:02 <madbr> they cannot happen at the same time, it's thump THEN the Shhhh part
04:42:35 <madbr> on C64 they do this by using one channel and alternating it between a wave (usually square) and noise
04:42:48 <madbr> so it's kindof a tone sequencer
04:42:52 <zzo38> OK, although FM synthesis is actually also one of the synthesizers I intend to add. The two I have already implemented are simple waveforms (a sum of square waves (adjustable duty), saw, and triangle), and PADsynth (full the amplitude table with a sum of bell curves, the phase table with random values, and then perform an inverse Fourier transform), and the two I plan to add are FM synth and percussion synth.
04:43:31 <zzo38> It can already load external samples, but I also want to allow the .MML text file to be able to stand alone.
04:43:34 <madbr> this page has some more ideas: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb02/articles/synthsecrets0202.asp
04:44:21 <madbr> essentially every drum is its own special snowflake
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04:51:30 <Bike> can't hear their shapes
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06:06:48 <Sgeo> I wonder if Go's defer has any advantages over Haskell solutions to similar problems
06:07:04 <Sgeo> I guess it's more explicit that something will be closed, rather than being implied by the usage
06:11:41 <zzo38> I have once used the (just) overtone scale in writing music.
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07:19:26 <Sgeo_> And in today's issue of things that would not be necessary if Go had generics: https://github.com/justinas/alice
07:28:26 <Sgeo_> It petty much is, except iiuc you can't really write a typesafe (.)
07:29:44 <elliott> "Matt Silverlock's use.go snippet came closest to what I wanted. My only complaint is that the ordering of handlers here is counter-intuitive. Reading the chaining code makes it obvious that
07:29:47 <elliott> use(myApp, csrf, logging, recovery)
07:29:50 <elliott> is equivalent to this code:
07:29:53 <elliott> recovery(logging(csrf(myApp)))
07:29:58 <elliott> recovery -> logging -> csrf -> myApp
07:30:00 <elliott> So, a reversed order from what you've written in your code."
07:30:03 <elliott> haha, the opposite complaint people make about (.)
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10:12:26 <Taneb> Help I am being attacked by imposter syndrome
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10:18:41 <mroman> Did you mean: Help, I have imposter syndrome.
10:18:48 <mroman> If so, please press 1.
10:18:51 <mroman> If not, please press 2.
10:19:18 <mroman> To ask for information about how much this call costs, press 3.
10:19:24 <mroman> To donate 1 Mio. dollar press 4.
10:19:45 <zzo38> To donate using what account?
10:20:18 <Taneb> Got 90% on a programming theory exam and I don't feel like I deserve it when one of my friends failed it
10:20:26 <mroman> It will be charged to your IRC bill
10:20:39 <Taneb> Hang on, he didn't fail it
10:20:46 <Taneb> Well, that makes me feel better :)
10:21:10 <zzo38> Why should you don't feel like you deserve it if one of your friends failed it?
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10:21:58 <Taneb> zzo38, because I think he's a better programmer than I am
10:22:17 <mroman> Maybe you're mistaken about his skills then.
10:22:53 <mroman> Taneb: Did you cheat on the test?
10:23:10 <zzo38> Taneb: O, OK. Well, but it might not necessarily have to do with the exam.
10:23:32 <mroman> I think people who cheat on tests don't deserve to pass them.
10:24:05 <Taneb> mroman, I did not cheat on the test
10:24:27 <Taneb> If I had I would have got more than 90%, or I would have thought 90% was high enough to be suspicious and got less than 90%
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10:25:10 <mroman> You'd care about your mark being suspicious if you cheat to good?
10:25:34 <mroman> Even if it's susicious. If they can't prove it, they can't get you ;P
10:26:24 <Taneb> Well, if it's not suspicious they won't look so hard
10:26:41 <mroman> What would they look at?
10:26:45 <mroman> You already wrote the test?
10:27:18 <Taneb> I am not clever enough to cheat
10:27:19 <mroman> They can't do anything once you've left the exam room I think
10:27:37 <mroman> I guess I'd be clever enough
10:27:46 <mroman> but it'd be a nervous wreck the whole exam
10:27:58 <mroman> My body would literally be shaking if I were to cheat
10:28:54 <zzo38> I have only twice tried to cheat on a test. In one case it was on paper, and I tried to use a "coughing code" to tell everyone else in the room, the answers. Since I have not told anyone about this ahead of time, I don't think anyone knew (and the teacher ask if I needed some water to drink). The other is on computer; once I reached the final question I tried to cheat off of the person next to me, who as it turned out was trying to cheat off of me
10:29:39 <Taneb> You seem to have pretty poor luck at cheating
10:30:18 <mroman> I'm too scared to cheat :(
10:30:44 <zzo38> In the first case I described, I didn't really do it to cheat, but because I wanted to figure out if it is possible and what the reactions are!
10:38:12 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i never did my homework, so i said "x equals 5", it was in 90% of all cases acceptable by my math teacher
10:48:51 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.xkcd.com/759/
10:49:11 <b_jonas> whose title text is "Handy exam trick: when you know the answer but not the correct derivation, derive blindly forward from the givens and backward from the answer, and join the chains once the equations start looking similar. Sometimes the graders don't notice the seam."
10:50:37 <zzo38> Especially on multiple-choice tests I did sometimes work backward from the answer.
10:55:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/602-Test-Time.html
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11:04:02 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I'm kinda counting on that :)
11:04:18 <mroman> although our math lecturer does a better job than that
11:04:51 <mroman> but he said I made an assumption that just coincidentally lead me to the correct result
11:04:51 <mroman> and thus, it's wrong :)
11:06:49 <zzo38> Yes I have done this kind of "short-circuit" test
11:09:56 <zzo38> Stuff written on that article is good
11:10:49 <mroman> How can an exam be racially biased o_O
11:10:58 <mroman> Did they ask questions only white people can answer
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11:14:48 <mroman> I thought everybody does that too anyway
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11:15:53 <mroman> There are even questions where you can say "Well, I don't know the exact answer, but I know it can't be B,C,D so the only option left is A anyway)
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11:17:26 <Taneb> mroman, my multiple choice exams have all had E) None of the above :(
11:18:39 <mroman> If I were a teacher I'd do that too
11:19:07 <Taneb> And like 3 questions were E!
11:19:34 <mroman> and punish mistakes ;)
11:19:57 <mroman> which makes multiple choice questions actually harder
11:20:02 <mroman> although everybode seems to think they are easier
11:20:12 <mroman> not only don't you get the point for the question
11:20:28 <mroman> so not knowing an answer correctly costs you two points instead of just one
11:21:17 <mroman> I'd rather it's not a multiple choice question and just loose a single point for not knowing it correctly
11:21:28 <b_jonas> sometimes dereferencing syntax in C++ or perl reminds me to the intercal rabbit ear syntax
11:22:32 <mroman> Taneb: A funny variation is actually
11:22:37 <mroman> "How many options are correct?"
11:23:19 <mroman> Instead of marking the correct options you just have to write how many of them are correct
11:23:55 <int-e> A) 1 B) 2 C) 3 or less D) all of the above
11:39:16 <int-e> to be more precise, I meant: A) exactly 1, B) exactly 2, C) 3 or less, D) all of the above
11:41:17 <int-e> and the question is "how many options are correct?"
11:41:34 <int-e> and the desired outcome is that there is no consistent set of answers.
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12:17:00 <zzo38> Is this much good so far? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen#Typeclass_definition_syntax
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13:18:50 <oerjan> <zzo38> [...] Since I have not told anyone about this ahead of time, I don't think anyone knew [...] <-- i'm going to guess that anyone intelligent enough to guess you were doing a code and figuring it out didn't need your help anyway.
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14:59:18 <impomatic> There doesn't appear to be a JavaScript Unix password cracker anywhere :-(
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15:01:50 <impomatic> gcry:BbDSwh.NQHGj6:1004:102:Cray Analyst:/u/gcry:/bin/sh
15:12:49 <FreeFull> You need speed for password cracking
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15:18:29 <ion> But JavaScript has 2× the performance of native applications. http://fratti.ch/2webscale4u/
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15:30:24 <impomatic> `crack cray:1zd8eAacKa9J6:101:17:Cray:/usr/cray:
15:31:54 <ion> EgoBot should have a person of Caucasian descent
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16:19:01 <mroman> I don't accept the premisse that anything that is interpreted can possibly run faster than native code
16:19:18 <mroman> I also don't acept the premisse that anything executed on a vm can possibly run faster than native code
16:20:07 <mroman> does 2x the speed mean
16:20:19 <mroman> if native takes 2s then it takes 4s?
16:21:32 <Taneb> mroman, an amazing interpreter can beat native code generated by a crap compiler
16:21:53 <mroman> but nobody said anything about that
16:21:59 <mroman> it runs twice as fast as native code
16:22:11 <Taneb> What was that said about?
16:22:52 <mroman> being faster than native code means for me, that you are faster than the CPU can execute code
16:25:12 <mroman> Just look at that webscalability
16:26:30 <mroman> that webpage has apparentely been seized by some federal agency of some country .
16:34:00 <impomatic> Argh, css shadows on body text :-(
16:52:22 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ngbl/
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17:44:20 <mroman> i should probably replace : with IS
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18:01:33 <mroman> Now with EXISTS, IS and ASSIGNED_TO
18:01:55 <impomatic> Some of these passwords are cracking really easily. service -> smile : shutdown -> bedtime and a few user passwords like mary, tricia, etc.
18:03:35 <impomatic> Poor passwords, considering the password file is from a Ministry of Defence machine :-) They should know better.
18:06:44 <mroman> I hope that's not your job and your bragging about it on the IRC
18:07:32 <mroman> what's plaudern in english
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18:10:27 <int-e> There's no "bragging" connotation that I'm aware of.
18:10:59 <mroman> I know that bragging is the wrong word
18:11:01 <int-e> I should stop replying to the last thing said without reading context.
18:11:16 <mroman> I tend to do that a lot too :D
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18:15:34 <impomatic> mroman: no, don't work for the MoD. Bought an ex-MOD computer which hasn't been wiped and trying to find the root password so I can use it properly.
18:17:38 <mroman> Yes, I'd like to have root access to your long range missiles.
18:19:00 <mroman> either that or a little house in some neat state .
18:21:22 <impomatic> Bought about a dozen ex MoD computers a few years ago. I've only just got this one back. (It's too big, so I had to put it in storage for a while until I got the garage converted into an office)
18:21:48 <mroman> they are pretty old I assume?
18:22:04 <Bicyclidine> i'm just surprised they don't wipe everything as a matter of policy
18:22:26 <mroman> even little companies do that
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18:23:21 <elliott> you're assuming the military is more competent than the average company
18:23:46 <mroman> that's what a normal non-us-citizen like me would think
18:24:06 <elliott> did you know that america is the only country in the world where things are bad
18:24:14 <mroman> although I suspect it's not much more secure here ;)
18:24:32 <Bicyclidine> elliott: i was just asking cos i'd give the example of http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/17/usa.oliverburkeman1
18:24:33 <mroman> elliott: I've heard something like that
18:24:52 <elliott> did I just commit some kind of poe's law of smoke europeanism
18:25:07 <elliott> I don't know how I got "smoke" out of that.
18:25:21 <fcrawl> smoke europeanism everyday
18:25:22 <Bicyclidine> anyway, i would have expected the military to do something else if they don't follow basic security, like for example, just explode them
18:25:34 <Bicyclidine> or dump them in the ocean, a la http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE
18:26:19 <elliott> US nuclear weapons found out to actually just be old fireworks in fancy containers
18:29:28 <Bicyclidine> i was explaining fission bombs yesterday and it was kind of awkward having to say that it basically boils down to hitting plutonium really hard
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18:49:40 <impomatic> mroman: they range from mid 80's to mid 90's. They range from a BBC Micro with some kind of 32-bit co-processor to an 8 processor Cray.
18:51:09 <impomatic> The place I bought them had an entire warehouse of various computers / minis / mainframes. I wish I could've bought more.
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19:52:36 <mroman> hopefully your cracking the passwords on the cray
19:54:15 <mroman> two days and I'm through with my final exams
19:57:16 <mroman> so far the "don't learn" strategy went well
19:59:35 <mroman> Because it's mostly boring bullshit
20:01:07 <mroman> About 900 CHF a semester
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20:01:48 <mroman> but you wouldn't really have a choice even it cost more ;)
20:02:27 <mroman> It's ridiculously specific stuff they'll ask
20:02:39 <mroman> like... what policy is needed to create a JAAS LoginContext
20:03:02 <fcrawl> i WISH i knew what my exam questions are going to be like
20:03:10 <olsner> mroman: a JAASLoginContextPolicy?
20:03:26 <mroman> I don't bother memorizing all those things
20:03:43 <mroman> I'm not going to learn the documentation of some Java Interface
20:03:48 <Bicyclidine> chemistry involves an annoying amount of memorization but at least it'll be most of the same memorization as fifty years ago.
20:03:54 <mroman> I hope that the lecturer included enough information about that interface in his slide
20:03:59 <mroman> (because I can bring the slides to the exam)
20:04:12 <mroman> And I'll just look-up stuff on the slides during the exam as I need to
20:04:33 <Bicyclidine> Also not under the control of some megacorp, much as Dow would like.
20:04:37 <mroman> If I have bad luck, he'll ask stuff he only mentioned in the lectures and did not document in the slides
20:05:52 <mroman> or something that was only mentioned in some exercises
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20:06:32 <mroman> I don't really see how it would make me a better computer scientist by memorizing all the stupid shit they teach
20:07:58 <olsner> sounds to me like your program might not be CS at all
20:08:51 <mroman> it is. but they bloat it up with lots of java specific stuff
20:09:12 <mroman> I'm just not interested in that
20:09:28 <MDude> But how will you be enterprise pro?
20:09:46 <mroman> Rather than memorizing the java compiler's command line options I'd like to learn something about type theory
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20:10:11 <mroman> what's the purpose of learning the java compiler's command line options
20:10:34 <elliott> uh, say you want to compile java
20:10:38 <olsner> you want to just learn abstract nonsense? but how will you ever *do* anything without knowing how to invoke javac?
20:10:56 <mroman> There's a freaking manual for it somewhere
20:11:13 <MDude> So when you go make Java with a bunch of bullies they won't bother you for checking the manual every once in a while.
20:11:43 <mroman> In the rare cases you actually alter the javac command line by much
20:12:04 <fcrawl> this sounds sorta, "why bother learning arithmetic if there's calculators"!!
20:12:39 <MDude> Are you trying to say that Java is a fundamental a concept as arithmatic?
20:12:48 <mroman> It's more like "why bother learning arithmetic if there's a book about that documents how that works"
20:13:06 <elliott> there are... there are lots of books about arithmetic, mroman
20:13:19 <mroman> but there's a difference imo.
20:13:35 <fcrawl> i should write a book about arithmetic
20:13:37 <elliott> but... but you just analogised it to that. like, yourself. you made that comparison
20:14:59 <mroman> I'm tired of memorizing the syntax of a programming language every semester and then have a final exam about where you have to find the 10 syntax errors he's hidden
20:15:03 <MDude> To me, learning the details of Java in a computer science course sounds like learning the details of a particular make of car in a physics class.
20:15:18 <MDude> That's just not what it's for.
20:15:37 <elliott> ok as much as we all want to be little dijkstras, do you really want CS classes that involve: no touching computers; writing programs
20:15:41 <mroman> I'm tired of memorizing what Exceptions some Java Function throws
20:15:50 <elliott> like, do you think CS graduates should not know how to implement algorithms
20:16:12 <mroman> elliott: They should know how to implement algorithms.
20:17:31 <mroman> elliott: There's a difference between teaching OOP through Java
20:17:56 <elliott> I'm not defending your curriculum, I just think your broader position is untenable
20:18:05 <mroman> and forcing your students to remember that notify() can throw a IllegalMonitorStateExecption
20:18:18 <mroman> the first one teaches concepts
20:18:46 <elliott> I don't think a CS curriculum should be theory divorced from practice as much as I don't think it should be practice divorced from theory.
20:18:47 <MDude> Not touching comptuers at all is one thing, but Java can be a bit far in the other extreme.
20:18:57 <mroman> the second one teaches where the nut A1241 is located in a Boing 717
20:19:32 <elliott> sure. I mean, I wouldn't pick Java. but it's probably not that bad a choice: it's incredibly popular, and has just enough abstraction to be able to actually implement things and not worry about memory safety. it's the least common denominator. it's certainly a shame, though
20:20:00 <mroman> It's not about the language choice actually
20:20:09 <mroman> It's more about what makes more sense teaching
20:20:28 <MDude> It's incredibly popular for reasons that have nothing to do with its sutability for CS classes.
20:20:46 <mroman> I'm not saying Java is a bad choice to teach
20:21:09 <coppro> elliott: can we somehow teach students not to crank out shitty papers for the sake of cranking out shitty papers?
20:21:14 <elliott> MDude: yes, but you know, grounding the lessons in what they have a good chance of using day-to-day afterwards isn't really that bad an idea.
20:21:29 <mroman> At that point, that you list three exceptions
20:21:39 <mroman> and ask your students which one of those are built-in in python
20:24:23 <b_jonas> mroman: how about the type of exam where I give a short program with one or two plausible errors (ones that I could make when writing the program) AND the compiler error messages (from a sane compiler with sane switches) which actually explain the errors, and the students have to understand what the compiler says and tell how to fix those one or two errors?
20:25:52 <mroman> there's no black/white I think
20:26:04 <b_jonas> sure, you need multiple types of questions on the exam
20:26:14 <olsner> reading error messages is a sorely lacking skill in my experience, they should teach that in school
20:26:33 <mroman> I'd say it's important to be able to understand compiler messages from a sane compiler
20:26:50 <b_jonas> of course this requires that you use a language that has a compiler that usually gives sane error messages
20:27:11 <mroman> I'm aware of my bias due to frustration ;)
20:27:28 <mroman> already being very nimble in lot of programming languages
20:27:57 <mroman> It drives you mad to memorize what exceptions are built-in to yet another language that happens to be taught at the university
20:28:57 <mroman> I happen to know a lot of details like that about other languages
20:29:09 <mroman> just not the one they decided to teach thoroughly at their university
20:30:16 <mroman> It's not entirely bad though
20:30:22 <mroman> You can list it on your CV
20:30:26 <mroman> that you are now fluent in Java too
20:30:37 <b_jonas> mroman: besides reading the error messages, one thing I tried to teach the students is how to debug a program by inserting printf statements to print intermediate results and check manually whether they look right
20:31:03 <mroman> It just isn't what I expected from my tsudy
20:31:28 <mroman> That's probably the most obvious thing to do ever
20:31:35 <mroman> It's even easier than handling gdb
20:32:04 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. I'm mentioning the highlights here, mind you, my courses very very lousy in general.
20:32:13 <mroman> "tried" kinda has the conotation that it didn't work out well? :D
20:32:48 <b_jonas> it's hard to tell how it worked out really
20:34:00 <b_jonas> those courses weigh my conscience a bit because I might have made those mathematicians hate programming for ever,
20:34:03 <mroman> It takes experience and exercises to debug well
20:34:26 <b_jonas> though luckily it was the course for second year students where I did really badly, and second-years are supposed to be more resistant to bad teachers hopefully
20:34:29 <mroman> I notice how some people are so convinced that the error must be somewhere around line X
20:34:37 <mroman> even without having actual evidence that it's there
20:34:44 <mroman> they just have a hunch or I don't know
20:35:01 <mroman> and they are so focused on that they don't actually check what's really going on
20:35:10 <b_jonas> one interesting episode is when I was called to find the error in a student's program, and I debugged it for like five minutes and couldn't find it,
20:35:19 <b_jonas> at which point I asked for help on irc,
20:35:31 <b_jonas> it turned out the error was a semicolon after the closing paren of a for statement
20:35:47 <b_jonas> I probably didn't notice that because that's a mistake I personally would not make
20:36:15 <b_jonas> but I should have noticed it from the symptoms, because I did trace the execution and did see that the loop body didn't run enough times for some reason
20:36:28 <mroman> (with a new line in between)
20:36:47 <mroman> but they obvious thing to do, when dooBar() isn't executed when you expect is
20:37:41 <mroman> that checks if you programmed the condition write
20:38:01 <mroman> and if it prints true but dooBar isn't executed
20:38:02 <b_jonas> I don't know if I'd have noticed it eventually. This was during a course so I was pressed for time and chose to ask a second pair of eyes for speedup, which was the right decision I think.
20:38:08 <mroman> it's most likely a damn semicolon somewhere :D
20:38:58 <b_jonas> in my own code, I'm more affraid of making the opposite mistake: adding an if condition, then getting distracted and forgetting to add a body, so it scopes the next statement which should always be executed
20:39:53 <b_jonas> for this reason I try to type a {} right after the closing paren of the condition unless I can type the first token of the body like immediately in the next second
20:40:09 <b_jonas> probably I should write {} _before_ I write the closing paren
20:42:05 <b_jonas> it's sort of like how you should never type 'rm *.o' in the shell left to right, for a mistake can turn it to 'rm *' -- you should either write it as '#rm *.o' then erase the '#', or write 'rm .o' then add the splat
20:42:34 <b_jonas> or better, type 'echo rm -v *.o', execute it, check the result, then remove the echo and re-run
20:46:27 <olsner> and keep the .o files in a separate directory
20:46:39 <b_jonas> olsner: and remove them with 'make clear'
20:46:49 <elliott> b_jonas: if you limit the work you can lose, then the low probability of the mistake weighted against the loss it'll incur is outweighed by the loss in productivity caused by being paranoid about everything you do
20:47:02 <b_jonas> and possibly try 'make -n clear' first, though make -n isn't a sure-fire way to do nothing
20:47:10 <olsner> hmm, "clear"? that makes sense but I have never seen that spelling afaik
20:47:19 <b_jonas> elliott: sure, I'm always paranoid
20:47:28 <b_jonas> olsner: 'make clean' sorry
20:47:43 <elliott> b_jonas: right. so you're losing more work than you would with being fast but with very good backups
20:47:59 <elliott> because you're missing out on all the potential work you could do by effectively having more time and worrying less about deleting things
20:49:59 <elliott> I guess this is just another form of "easier to ask forgiveness than permission"
20:51:23 <b_jonas> that's a strange interpretation of this latter statement
20:52:23 <elliott> forgiveness i.e. "oops, I made a mistake and deleted all my files, please undo"
20:52:44 <elliott> permission i.e. "please figure out whether I am competent enough to be deleting the right files" :)
20:53:03 <elliott> permission -- check then do; forgiveness -- do then potentially recover
20:55:12 <MDude> I'd think recovering a backup might take more time than typing a bit weird every once in a while for a specific command.
20:56:31 <MDude> I'd think, though, that if you use 'rm *.o' a lot and worry about mistakinly pressing enter early, you could just make a script that does nothing but run 'rm *.o'
20:56:41 <elliott> MDude: yeah, unfortunately our undo buttons aren't that great yet. this is a perennial UI problem. however, there are rather convenient things (btrfs snapshots, say) where it's really no big deal
20:56:51 <mroman> b_jonas: that's why python has indentation :)
20:56:53 <MDude> And give it a short name.
20:56:56 <mroman> fixes a lot of these problems :D
20:56:57 <elliott> or, for a rather common method of backing up code against rm *: git reset --hard
20:57:37 <elliott> mostly, I don't personally make that mistake anywhere near often enough to care much about the hardship of restoring afterwards...
20:57:52 <MDude> Obv. the solution is to switch to the fossil filesystem.
20:58:04 <elliott> yeah, that would be nice. have you seen NILFS?
21:00:30 <MDude> No, it's been a while since I went around looking at filesystems.
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22:19:01 <boily> how come it feels so humid outside, even if it's 24 over 14?
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22:21:00 <boily> I should go and enjoy the Norwegian summer one day...
22:22:27 <olsner> why would you want to do that?
22:23:04 <boily> because it seems fun?
22:24:26 <olsner> maybe it is, I've only been in norway in the winter that I can remember
22:25:20 <olsner> once we went there in summer and came back with weird flatbread, coins with holes in them and oddly shaped candy
22:26:30 <boily> you had me at coins with holes.
22:29:24 <olsner> oh well, time to sleep
22:30:41 <elliott> olsner: you can't remember going in summer but you did?
22:37:16 <oerjan> hm do we have coins with holes any more
22:37:48 <oerjan> duh two of them in fact
22:38:42 * oerjan isn't really up to date with the recent weird candy
22:39:13 <oerjan> as for flatbread, there are probably heaps of types
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22:49:26 <Sgeo> I can't stop thinking of Erlang/Elixir+OTP as encouraging global mutable state
22:49:32 <Sgeo> Processes seem like they're often registered with a static name
22:49:34 <shachaf> boily: it's masculine bed that makes no sense
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22:50:04 <Sgeo> Should I be thinking of (some) supervisors almost like factories? Call a function with the supervisor and the supervisor can create a child and return its PID? Is that a normal flow?
22:50:15 <Sgeo> I've been wondering how to make supervised children dynamically for so long
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22:50:56 <boily> shachaf: not my problem. our object genders are correctly and obviously assigned :P
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22:53:09 <Sgeo> Suppose I have a simple_one_for_one to do exactly this. Is that simple_one_for_one generally registered? (a.k.a global state)
22:54:55 <Sgeo> Is this the wrong place to ask Erlang questions?
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22:55:29 <Bike> do any of us even know erlang
22:56:16 <Sgeo> I think Vorpal?
22:56:59 <shachaf> but #esoteric is more of a stream of consciousness channel for Sgeo, i think
22:57:58 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Is this the wrong place to ask Erlang questions?
22:58:31 <Sgeo> People here answer questions about all sorts of non-esoteric languages, so I guess I kind of figured
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23:05:55 <brandonson> Sgeo: I always thought of globally registered supervisors/actors as a little odd, but often a necessary evil. Passing around a PID to everything seemed a bit like overkill.
23:06:30 <Sgeo> Practically every example I've seen uses them though
23:06:44 <Sgeo> What's the non-global registered way to do normal stuff?
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23:07:44 <brandonson> Sgeo: Passing around PIDs I think. I just hate the extra parameter cause without static typing I always mix the order of params up :P
23:08:37 <Sgeo> If I'm not dynamically registering children, how do I make a gen_server that there should in most circumstances be one of and have the supervisor supervise it?
23:08:53 <Sgeo> I'm just trying to understand how passing around PIDs interacts with the supervision tree
23:12:24 <brandonson> Sgeo: You'd generally have the supervisor create children when it's created and send you the PIDs if you need them, I think. Little sketchy on my knowledge here though, I'm more familiar with akka/scala actors.
23:12:52 <Sgeo> How do I get the top level supervisor of my application?
23:17:06 <brandonson> Sgeo: It's likely the original actor that you create, so you can pass it as a parameter to anything that needs it and then store it as state. I don't think many actors need it though, you're more likely to need the PIDs for supervisors/workers that perform whatever tasks an actor needs done.
23:18:28 <brandonson> Sgeo: The top level actor/supervisor is almost always/always always your error kernel that really should never fail, so you don't want too many things touching it.
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23:27:44 <impomatic> Is this gif adequate, or is there something I can improve? http://corewar.co.uk/32.gif
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23:29:32 <impomatic> It demonstrates an imp moving through memory (a single instruction program that copies itself one instruction ahead, then executes the new copy)
23:29:48 <Bike> and it seems reasonably smooth
23:33:15 <impomatic> brandonson, bike: thanks :-) I just look at it and think it could be done better, but I've no idea how!
23:33:35 <Bike> i hear polytone knows a thing or two about gifs
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