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01:59:17 <oerjan> oh darn. i edited wikipedia's esoteric programming language article to update the links to the wiki and User:Agyle took it as an opportunity to go on a general deletion massacre against the wiki and other community links. (did you know: our wiki is neither a reliable source, nor mentioned in any?)
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02:06:04 <elliott_> oerjan: iirc there is plenty of precedent for linking to established community wikis, though not as a source
02:08:29 <oerjan> well the bastard also removed the _entire_ section about the existence of a community.
02:12:14 <oerjan> elliott_: e is presumably referring to point 12 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided
02:14:34 <elliott_> well, people will find the wiki anyhow
02:14:58 <zzo38> Our wiki may be a reliable source for some things and may link to some reliable sources.
02:15:21 <zzo38> Not the best kind of reliable source, but for some things it works.
02:15:42 <oerjan> zzo38: that's a technical wikipedia term.
02:16:15 <oerjan> which causes madness if you try to compare it with the colloquial meaning.
02:16:19 <elliott_> anyway twke it to the talk page I guess (it'll be tedious)
02:16:40 <zzo38> What does Wikipedia consider to be reliable then?
02:17:01 <zzo38> Shouldn't it depend on what you are looking for, and on how many sources there are for something?
02:18:13 <oerjan> "should" and "wikipedia policy" are not well correlated concepts hth
02:19:24 <oerjan> elliott_: i cannot bear that kind of arguing.
02:24:47 <oerjan> instead i passive-aggressively https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Agyle&diff=614833601&oldid=614551499
02:26:26 <shachaf> is that really all that passive
02:26:38 <shachaf> also that * turned into a bullet fo a bulleted list
02:26:41 <oerjan> i dunno. what's the exact definition.
02:26:49 <oerjan> i realized that a second too late, shachaf
02:27:03 <oerjan> i think editing it now would be even more pathetic :P
02:28:59 <oerjan> also stupid things are subject to muphry's law. just look at how long it took me to do the edits yesterday that provoked this.
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03:14:02 <oerjan> as long as you stay away from the wizard robe
03:25:18 <zzo38> Please tell me if you found any more mistakes in AmigaMML program, in amigasam, or feature requests, and/or anything unclear/incorrect in the provided documentation.
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04:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Taken from the Machine Specification for CHIP-16. https://github.com/chip16/chip16/wiki/Machine-Specification
04:05:12 <elliott_> that smells like non-pd content
04:09:29 <zzo38> What is smelling like non-pd content?
04:15:36 <Bike> i think zzo has wiki updates blocked.
04:17:17 <oerjan> the LICENSE file for the repository is GPL 3, and i can find no other license for the wiki part.
04:17:48 <oerjan> zzo38: the one in HackEgo's announcement
04:18:04 <zzo38> What announcement?
04:18:30 <zzo38> I have some announcements blocked.
04:18:33 <Bike> 21:02 < HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Taken from the Machine Specification for CHIP-16. https://github.com/chip16/chip16/wiki/Machine-Specification
04:18:58 <Bike> hopefully you aren't just blocking .*[wiki].* or something, i guess
04:19:45 <zzo38> I am not just blocking .*[wiki].*
04:20:04 <zzo38> The exact specification of the filter I am using is: <1> i /:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i
04:20:44 <zzo38> I can see the picture now; it has one extra dot it look like.
04:20:51 <elliott_> if you use ignore rules then the reasonable bursen is on you to use logs or whatever to see stuff you missed, since it's a personal thing
04:21:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Copyright violation: As far as I can see, the repository that is from is GPL 3
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04:21:42 <zzo38> Although if you are referencing something on the wiki you should specify what you are referencing anyways though
04:22:22 <zzo38> Also the buttons are different order from the Famicom order; you could use Famicom order instead, which is: A, B, Select, Start, Up, Down, Left, Right.
04:22:25 <oerjan> zzo38: repeating information that was said on the previous irc line is a little silly
04:23:41 <oerjan> now i deleted it, anyway
04:23:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, unless you are trying to clarify something, of course. Because there can be a lot of people and messages on the IRC, it can sometimes be unclear, until you read it a second time
04:24:23 <zzo38> Are we allowed to post messages on the talk page of a deleted file in wiki?
04:25:01 <elliott_> yes but I'll ban you (not really)
04:25:53 <zzo38> (That is, I mean if the messages being posted will not have any copyright violations, can it be posted OK?)
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04:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[File talk:CHIP16 controller.png]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39961 * Zzo38 * (+819) Created page with "This file was deleted, due to copyright violation (please post only public domain files here) (also the picture seem to have one extra dot). I can perhaps also suggest that yo..."
04:35:53 <zzo38> Now I made ASCII version is it better?
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04:45:16 <elliott_> oerjan: upon actually viewing the image, I suspect it is likely uncopyrightable
04:46:32 <elliott_> well, it is a very simple, non-artistic arrangement of geometric shapes and digits
04:46:54 <oerjan> the github code says it was from http://imgur.com/ExCAKZo btw
04:47:35 <oerjan> elliott_: well if you're sure go ahead and restore it >:)
04:47:58 <zzo38> elliott_: Probably you are correct, I think, although I made ASCII version anyways in case it help more.
04:48:39 <elliott_> oerjan: well, the wiki is no longer my legal liability :P
04:48:40 <zzo38> (ASCII version include text labels as well as numeric, in the order they are found in Famicom, GameBoy, NES, etc)
04:48:51 <elliott_> someone should just remake it.
04:49:20 <oerjan> elliott_: it's not mine either hth
05:24:10 <MDream> Send a description of the image to someone who hasn't seen the original so they can clean room reverse egnineer it?
05:24:37 <Bike> um what if the description is copyrighted,
05:25:33 <MDream> Don't use the original description, just make a new one based on looking at the chart?
05:25:57 <Bike> but the chart is copyrighted!
05:26:37 <MDream> Well yeah, that's why you send a desciption of it.
05:27:06 <MDream> I guess to be sure you'd need the lawyer times.
05:27:41 <MDream> And not someone who just looked at the WIkipedia article on clean room reverse engineering for a bit.
05:28:36 <Bike> i'd look at the article but it may also be copyrighted
05:29:28 * MDream copyrights the word "copyright".
05:33:56 <MDream> Wel at least that expires after 20 years.
05:34:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39962&oldid=39949 * Zzo38 * (+319)
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05:41:15 <zzo38> What is the probability of winning/losing/draw at a chess game if moves are selected at random using uniform probabilities for each legal move, and no draws are used except for lack of legal moves and infinity of future is necessary?
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05:42:05 <zzo38> (Promotion counts as four possible moves, so it is four times as likely as another move.)
05:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[File talk:CHIP16 controller.png]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39963&oldid=39961 * Javamannen * (+171) Sorry for the copyright violation, and thanks for the tip!
05:49:52 <oerjan> zzo38: that sounds like the thing you could estimate by repeating it enough times, but which would likely be exponentially hard to calculate exactly
05:50:23 <Bike> And both players are playing like this, or?
05:51:05 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it applies to both players. (Presumably, you do not actually play chess like this; it is entirely hypothetical.)
05:51:56 <zzo38> oerjan: I believe you. Perhaps it is easier if a variant with smaller board and less pieces?
05:54:53 <oerjan> well sure. exponentially hard also become easy if the instance is small enough.
05:56:04 <zzo38> I think that it is possible to make up the "1 L" rule of linear logic out of the cut rule and "1 R" rule.
05:58:34 <zzo38> (There is the similar thing with the rules for bottom, too)
05:59:00 <oerjan> "for every polynomial-time algorithm you have, there is an exponential algorithm that I would rather run" -- alan perlis, as quoted by dick lipton
06:01:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Why do they have that?
06:02:50 <oerjan> because exponential doesn't mean _always_ slower, presumably
06:03:19 <redryder> you can get some serious approximations out to many decimals using taylor and mclaren series
06:04:05 <oerjan> redryder: for zzo38's problem? i doubt it.
06:04:26 <Bike> WHAT ABOUT AN ORTHONORMAL BASIS OF BESSEL FUNCTIONS
06:05:11 <redryder> besssel function, what are you trying to do build a nuclear reactor? lol
06:05:14 <oerjan> because the structure of legal moves is too complex to turn into an efficient formula
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06:06:18 <oerjan> redryder: what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
06:06:24 <redryder> there are planets where the atmosphere is so dense, you can look straight forward and see the back of your own head
06:06:41 <oerjan> wait was redryder someone's bot
06:08:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
06:08:29 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*redryder@*.nwrknj.east.verizon.net.
06:08:29 -!- oerjan has kicked redryder You are annoying and speaking nonsense.
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06:10:41 <oerjan> also, failing the turing test
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06:14:53 <oerjan> Bike: my default assumption is a rude chatbot...
06:15:09 <Bike> i'm not complaining.
06:15:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39964&oldid=39957 * Javamannen * (+530)
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07:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39965&oldid=39964 * Javamannen * (+12) 60 MIPS overkill?
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08:24:52 <fizzie> Perhaps it was a person pretending it's a bot pretending it's a person.
08:27:30 <zzo38> Could a programming language be made for testing random number generator quality and calculating probabilities and distributions, as follows: Have one "$" instruction for "toss coin", which can split a program into two states with half a probability. There is a finite states subset, and when not used it can cancel any probability which is "too small", otherwise it can calculate exact probabilities even in case of infinite loop sometimes.
08:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39966&oldid=39959 * GermanyBoy * (+0) /* Structures */ corrected name
08:45:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39967&oldid=39966 * GermanyBoy * (+470) /* Indentation rules */
08:52:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SYCPOL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39968 * Zzo38 * (+1550) Created page with "Another idea would be to fix it so that it will work even if the cards are placed in the wrong order. Such as, the division and/or section, and what it belongs to, must be men..."
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09:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Braktif]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39969&oldid=19938 * Rdebath * (+1065) /* Turing complete etc */ new section
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09:47:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Processor/1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39970&oldid=13660 * Rdebath * (+26) Killed by DynDNS
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13:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39971&oldid=39968 * GermanyBoy * (+1110)
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14:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39972&oldid=39962 * GreyKnight * (+297)
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16:20:29 <fizzie> Sigh, computers. My (USB, wired) keyboard does not work in the GRUB menu if a (USB) Bluetooth dongle is plugged in at boot time.
16:21:10 <int-e> BIOS 1 : fizzie 0.
16:22:05 <int-e> are they on the same USB bus? how much power does the Bluetooth dongle claim? Is there any left for the keyboard afterwards?
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16:51:37 <mroman> I see that as "Machines 1 : Humans 0"
16:56:35 <mroman> zzo38: what two states?
17:08:44 <zzo38> mroman: Head and tails, of course.
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17:11:23 <myname> what is the downside of Data.Vector as opposed to Data.Array?
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17:18:20 <myname> i didn't get arrays yet
17:19:29 <elliott_> or do index arithmetic manually
17:20:02 <myname> so i do a fromList (map fromList foo) to turn [[a]] into a twodimensional vector?
17:20:32 <Bike> a vector of vectors, isn't it
17:20:34 <elliott_> sure, though index arithmetic might be nicer
17:20:54 <myname> does it really matter?
17:21:07 <myname> it actually does not have to be
17:21:21 <myname> i can force it, but i don't want to if i don't have to
17:21:27 <elliott_> but indirection is expensive, locality is nice, caching, etc.
17:21:53 <myname> well, even without that it should be way faster than [[a]]
17:22:44 <elliott_> HashMap (Int,Int) is underrated, also
17:23:35 <Bike> rail has a lot of blank space, doesn't it? maybe a hash map would be better.
17:23:42 <Bike> or something based on the actual graph, maybe
17:24:05 <Bike> gotta lead the way towards esolang JITs
17:24:25 <myname> i want to access the cell at the current instruction pointer position
17:24:29 <elliott_> HashMap is nice because you can update it with less overhead
17:24:31 <myname> that's like the most used operation
17:24:47 <myname> rail programms won't be updated once created
17:25:55 <elliott_> then try vector and HashMap and see which you like more :)
17:26:08 <fizzie> int-e: A bit late, but the keyboard seemed to work post-boot. And the keyboard was in a (passive) hub connected to one of the back-of-the-box ports, while the USB dongle was in one of the front USB ports, but who knows how those are connected.
17:26:21 <elliott_> you probably want a boxed vector of unboxed vectors
17:26:29 <elliott_> which might get a little confusing
17:26:37 <myname> is hashmap faster at accessing than map?
17:26:55 <elliott_> HashMap is faster at almost everything
17:27:20 <myname> are they reasonably cheap to update?
17:28:43 <int-e> fizzie: lsusb can be used to find out
17:29:04 <int-e> fizzie: but as you describe it it sounds like a bug :)
17:29:37 <fizzie> int-e: The same system has trouble booting at all if I forget the USB card reader (with a SD card from the camera) connected.
17:30:16 <fizzie> I second Bike's suggestion about "something based on the actual graph", since I guess Rail doesn't do self-modification?
17:30:56 <myname> that might be tricky for an dedicated rail editor
17:31:07 <elliott_> myname: you just said it won't be updated...
17:31:10 <myname> hashmap is pretty easy to adapt for that manner
17:31:18 <myname> elliott_: i am thinking ahead!
17:31:54 <fizzie> A thinking head thinks ahead.
17:32:24 <myname> is there any advantage of Map instead of HashMap?
17:32:34 <myname> like, why is there even a Map?
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17:33:06 <elliott_> so it can do more efficient queries based on key order
17:33:15 <elliott_> HashMap is mostly just newer though.
17:35:44 <myname> does HashMap has O(1) access?
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17:37:26 <Bike> there's no reason you can't make a structure editor maaaaan
17:38:00 <myname> Bike: that may be true, but it makes things a lot harder
17:38:02 <elliott_> you don't need O(1) though probably
17:38:23 <elliott_> btw O(1) access and update are incompatible (for a persistent structure)
17:38:27 <Bike> you've already spent like half an hour wondering how to do text most efficiently. less thinking more making shit up
17:39:05 <myname> Bike: we profiled our code and the most time is spent looking up characters
17:39:14 <myname> i do think it's fair to work at this
17:39:22 <Bike> and that would completely disappear with a graph. bam.
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17:39:51 <myname> Bike: the code that looks up actually makes a graph out of the code
17:40:57 <Bike> also why is this in haskell instead of self-hosting, you terrible person
17:41:23 <myname> that was not my choice
17:41:29 <myname> we had to do haskell or c++
17:41:42 <myname> so i obviously chose haskell!
17:53:34 <myname> uh, i don't have any efficient way of getting the "size" of a hashmap, have i? (or any reasonable upper bound)
17:56:59 <myname> now i just have to write a function to convert that
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18:13:02 <myname> extracting something from the first line gets trickier, though
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18:13:21 <zzo38> Now I have a Redmine program for AmigaMML.
18:13:40 <myname> zzo38: i am not even surprised anymore
18:17:18 <elliott_> myname: a nested hashmap works too
18:18:56 <myname> i do think (Int, Int) is fine, this is one corner case that only gets done once per function
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18:30:05 <myname> okay, i will change to nested hashmaps
18:31:18 <elliott_> IntMap is also a thing but I think HashMap is faster.
18:31:44 <elliott_> though IntMap can do some specialised optiona faster, like Map
18:44:41 <myname> strange thing there is no [a] -> IntMap a
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18:47:00 <myname> should've thought of that
18:48:18 <elliott_> but you should probably use HashMap
18:48:40 <elliott_> it's faster than IntMap on the usual operations, unless that changed
18:49:16 <elliott_> HashMap should he yiur default map structure unkess you know why you'd need something else.
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19:17:55 <zzo38> Please tell me if there is anything unclear or any lies in the documentation? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/attachments/download/353/amigamml.doc (it is a plain text, not Microsoft Word format)
19:27:57 <TieSoul> I made a Befunge-98 interpreter :D
19:28:00 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/befunge/blob/master/befunge-exec.py
19:29:22 <myname> i assume toList from HashMap Int Char gives no guarantee whatsoever of ordering
19:29:32 <TieSoul> and I forgot to change a few things when refactoring
19:30:06 <TieSoul> oh wait you're talking about them above here?
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20:57:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39973&oldid=39965 * Javamannen * (-1711) Reboot & rethink.
20:59:37 <Sgeo> Right now this diagram makes no sense whatsoever
21:12:04 <^v> Sgeo, ur a diagram
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21:12:23 <Sgeo> Therefore, I make no sens
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21:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ndef++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39974 * Javamannen * (+413) This is the programming language of choice for the Demiurge
21:48:31 <myname> Deprecated: "HashMap is deprecated. Please use Map instead."
21:50:39 <fizzie> Perhaps you're looking at the "hashmap" package instead of the "unordered-containers" one?
21:50:53 <myname> i thought i used that?
21:51:30 <oerjan> myname: look at which package was loaded by ghci
21:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39975&oldid=39701 * Javamannen * (+45) NDef++
21:52:09 <oerjan> that's a module, not a package
21:52:34 <oerjan> and there is no such module in unordered-containers
21:52:39 <myname> fuck it, i'll use maps
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21:52:52 <oerjan> use Data.HashMap.Lazy or Data.HashMap.Strict
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21:53:32 <myname> those aren't deprecated when Data.HashMap is?
21:53:42 <oerjan> no, those are from unordered-containers
21:53:53 <oerjan> module names are not necessarily globally unique
21:54:27 <oerjan> (unordered-containers comes with the haskell platform, so is very much not deprecated)
21:54:31 <myname> i will discuss that with people from the project
21:55:36 <oerjan> Data.Map will of course also work for just about everything
21:56:19 <myname> as far as i know, we are faster than the c++ team
21:56:44 <oerjan> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers-0.2.4.0
21:57:01 <fizzie> And apparently the "HashMap is deprecated" notice in the Data.HashMap module of the hashmap package only refers to the fact that it's deprecated over the Data.Map module *in hashmap*.
21:57:04 <oerjan> oh is it the icfp contest?
21:57:15 <fizzie> (Though the whole package is marked as deprecated in favour of unordered-containers.)
21:58:02 <fizzie> Er, I mean, the Map type in Data.HashMap, of course.
21:58:17 <fizzie> In any case, not the Data.Map Map.
21:58:52 <oerjan> actually the haskell platform version is still on 0.2.3.0
21:59:41 <oerjan> since the platform is about a year old. a new version is planned as soon as ghc 7.8.3 is out
22:00:48 <oerjan> oh not the icfp contest
22:01:08 <oerjan> myname: is this some other contest or if not why are there teams
22:01:33 <myname> oerjan: it's a software project module of our university
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22:49:42 <myname> okay, one last thing: if i have data Foo = Foo { ..., bar :: Map ... } and at some point i make foo{x=5}, will it copy the map or reuse the existing one?
22:55:22 <oerjan> at runtime, the bar field in Foo is just a pointer to the map, after all.
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22:57:25 <oerjan> it's not the kind of type that it makes sense to unbox
22:58:08 <oerjan> and even if it were, it would only happen with the right settings and a strictness annotation.
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23:10:51 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ dis86 \ e \
23:11:17 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he
23:12:34 <Taneb> `echo bin/oerjan # wat
23:12:40 <Taneb> `cat bin/oerjan # wat
23:12:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/oerjan # wat: No such file or directory
23:12:45 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:12:53 <Taneb> `run echo < bin/oerjan # wat
23:13:23 <Taneb> `run xargs echo < bin/oerjan # wat
23:13:24 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:13:27 <Taneb> I learnt something today
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23:15:09 <oerjan> well, it's only been 14 minutes afaict
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