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00:48:24 <zzo38> How much can you mulligan in Magic: the Gathering, down to zero or down to one?
00:51:17 <int-e> "(Note that if a player’s hand size reaches zero cards, that player must keep that hand.)"
00:52:35 <zzo38> Some players only mulligan down to one card though
00:53:24 <int-e> well, it's hard to see an advantage in having no cards at all
00:55:52 <int-e> (if you want more cards in your library you can just make it larger than 60 cards to begin with)
00:59:16 <int-e> hmm, the last time I downloaded the MtG comprehensive rules, they were still available as text files.
00:59:32 <int-e> must have been 5 years or more.
01:05:07 <zzo38> In a Limited format the minimum is 40 cards though, rather than 60
01:06:13 <zzo38> (Although you normally you can still add however many basic lands you want)
01:09:11 <zzo38> The maximum number of cards which are not basic lands is normally 45, as far as I can tell.
01:09:58 <int-e> but that's not stipulated by any rule. see 100.5.
01:11:15 <zzo38> It isn't one of the rules of the game, but you won't have more cards than that, therefore there is a hard limit of 45 even though the rules do not specify any maximum.
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01:17:20 <zzo38> Also for mulligan, possibly your opponent has a lot of cards too and not only you, or some opponent's effect (or possibly one of your own effect) based on number of cards in your hand.
01:19:08 <shachaf> int-e: The change is pretty recent.
01:19:39 <shachaf> zzo38: You mean in draft format in particular?
01:20:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, in a standard draft the hard limit is 45. In other formats there are other limits. (For example in a standard Constructed format the hard limit is four times the number of non-banned cards in the current block.)
01:21:21 <shachaf> zzo38: It could be more with http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382298
01:23:46 <zzo38> shachaf: If that set is being drafted, then yes. I didn't see that card before. I like this.
01:24:21 <zzo38> I have also heard of cards that are banned before they are released, therefore meaning they are only usable in Limited formats.
01:24:58 <zzo38> O, it has other cards affecting drafts too.
01:25:42 <int-e> how about http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205082
01:26:07 <Sgeo> shachaf: how is that a real card?
01:26:13 <Sgeo> Seems almost like those old cards with ante
01:26:52 <Sgeo> "There is a Conspiracy afoot, and it appears that the main objective is to introduce all sorts of awesome mechanics into drafts around the world. "
01:29:16 <int-e> oh there's another one, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370746
01:29:47 <int-e> And it needs it ... "Sacrifice six creatures named "Shadowborn Apostle: ..."
01:30:53 <zzo38> That means there is no limit in Constructed when M14 is the set being used and it is not banned.
01:32:22 <zzo38> Or you can use card to change the name of other cards!!!
01:32:40 <int-e> right, but that's usually a lot more effort :)
01:34:18 <shachaf> i,i shadowborn apostle + progenitor mimic
01:34:59 <zzo38> You might need it if you are making up a kind of Limited format that not only has a card like Shadowborn Apostle or something similar, but also other sets also used that have card to allow changing name of other cards too.
01:38:58 <int-e> yay, "probably". " You can choose not to copy anything. In that case, Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a 0/0 Shapeshifter creature and is probably put into the graveyard immediately."
01:43:29 <shachaf> flip three coins. if you lose any of the flips, progenitor mimic is put into the graveyard immediately. otherwise, progenitor mimic is put into the graveyard as a state-based action
01:43:51 <int-e> that Progenitor is a tricky card.
01:43:59 <int-e> shachaf: not what they mean :)
01:44:53 <shachaf> state-based actions aren't actually "immediately", i found out
01:46:40 <shachaf> for example, if something costs {G}+sacrifice a creature, you can pay for it by putting a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots, which brings it to 0/0, and then sacrificing it
01:47:19 <Bike> what's the point of the counter?
01:47:53 <shachaf> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220566 -- you get {G} by doing it
01:49:29 <shachaf> but no one gets priority so state-based actions aren't checked
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01:57:00 <int-e> ah, stupid mana abilities.
02:05:16 <shachaf> It seems odd to me that you don't just pay for spells with mana that's in your pool.
02:05:30 <shachaf> (But instead you first announce the spell, then get the mana to pay for it.)
02:05:53 <shachaf> I suppose it makes sense for things like convoke, though?
02:12:54 <zzo38> Well, you might already have the mana but maybe not, then
02:13:48 <shachaf> Magic: The Gathering is too complicated
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02:26:54 <zzo38> Well, I like the Magic: the Puzzling.
02:33:51 <zzo38> Do you like Pokemon card though?
02:40:55 <zzo38> O, this new Magic: the Gathering set has a new card type; all Conspiracy cards are banned by definition, it seems, so they are used only in Limited formats.
02:42:27 <pikhq> Conspiracy is actually quite a fun format.
02:59:11 <zzo38> It also look many cards have features design for more than two players too but can also work even if the game has only two players at a time.
02:59:59 <shachaf> Yes, it's meant for multiplayer games.
03:01:05 <zzo38> (A variant could be to use private voting when only two players remain, or add additional conditions too.)
03:02:47 <zzo38> I prefer only two players in a single game though
03:06:22 <zzo38> Or at least not more than three players anyways
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03:19:37 <zzo38> Actually, it is an idea: Start with three players; after one player is eliminated then the remaining players each gain 1 life. Furthermore, voting is public whenever more than two votes are to be made (even if they are made by only two players), and private if only two votes are to be made (including if there are three players but an effect prohibits one player from voting).
03:21:59 <zzo38> I think a card someone made up once was "Altar of Unimaginable Power", meaning that whenever a player loses the game, choose one--target player gains 20 life or target player loses 20 life.
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05:33:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> @metar EFHK <-- what. this changes EVERYTHING.
05:33:52 <lambdabot> ENVA 100520Z 15010KT 120V190 CAVOK 19/09 Q1000 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 18016G30KT
05:35:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: lambdabot takes over metasepia's metar duties due to the latter's abysmal attendance | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:36:00 <oerjan> it was inevitable, really. (how long has lambdabot had @metar?)
05:37:22 <oerjan> oh looks like int-e just added it.
05:41:54 <oerjan> <edwardk> you can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose. <-- i see several counterexamples on google hth
05:43:48 <Sgeo> GitHub pages is so slow
05:43:55 <Sgeo> Also fsck JSONP
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05:59:49 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.github.io/tagpromusic.htm
06:00:01 <Sgeo> Besides no longer needing to run unsafely, I killed the jQuery dependency
06:00:18 <Sgeo> oops wrong channel
06:02:31 <shachaf> zzo38: You wrote "data LeftCo m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z)" in a comment once. Where did that type come from?
06:02:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not remember?
06:03:13 <shachaf> In http://comonad.com/reader/2011/monads-from-comonads/
06:04:00 <zzo38> I still don't know.
06:04:11 <shachaf> OK. Do you have any idea what it might be?
06:05:48 <zzo38> Sorry, I cannot think of it right now
06:14:23 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag [[]] = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:14:35 <oerjan> > diag [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:15:15 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:19:05 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: Int) == l2)) /= Just False
06:19:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘GHC.Types.Int’
06:19:07 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[t0]’ Relevant bindings include l2 :: [t0] (bound at <inte...
06:19:17 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:19:18 <lambdabot> *** Failed! (after 7 tests and 3 shrinks):
06:19:19 <lambdabot> Exception: L.hs:(149,1)-(151,48): Non-exhaustive patterns in function diag [...
06:20:17 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag [[]:_] = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:20:26 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:20:33 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:20:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[t0]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Int’
06:20:35 <lambdabot> Expected type: [GHC.Types.Int] Actual type: [[t0]] Relevant bindings include...
06:21:59 <oerjan> ...why is it suddenly not type checking
06:22:12 <Bike> you are unworthy
06:22:22 <oerjan> I DID NOT CHANGE THAT FUNCTION
06:22:55 <oerjan> diag has too many []'s in its type now
06:23:14 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag ([]:_) = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:23:24 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:23:33 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:23:34 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 17 tests and 17 shrinks):
06:24:25 <oerjan> > diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:24:30 <shachaf> oerjan: do you know the monads-from-comonads thing
06:24:56 <oerjan> no, just vaguely heard "every comonad is a monad transformer"
06:25:11 <shachaf> yes, we were talking about it in the other channel
06:25:23 <shachaf> i thought i talked to someone else about this but i don't remember who
06:25:37 <oerjan> > mapM diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:26:08 <oerjan> > diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:26:41 <oerjan> > diagMaybe [[0],[0,0]]
06:26:50 <oerjan> that should give Nothing, hmph
06:27:10 <oerjan> ...i've reversed the bloody test...
06:27:14 <zzo38> What does diagMaybe mean?
06:27:27 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag ([]:_) = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:27:30 <zzo38> O, now I can see it above
06:27:53 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) > 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:28:12 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:28:18 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:28:22 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:29:15 <oerjan> to prove that ZipList isn't a Monad, you _have_ to consider joins of lists that aren't immediate what they should be from the Applicative operations
06:29:34 <oerjan> (well, unless counterexamples are too hard for @check)
06:29:49 <oerjan> i.e. joins of non-rectangular lists of lists
06:30:26 <oerjan> (the real meaning of diagMaybe is to be a diagonal function which censors non-rectangular lists)
06:32:14 <oerjan> i keep coming back to this problem because although it's haskell folklore that it is impossible, i have never seen a rigorous proof that doesn't guess at what join / (>>=) "should" be.
06:32:45 <oerjan> (i know join has to be taking the diagonal for rectangular lists.)
06:33:26 <zzo38> Yes, that much is believed clear; I can see that clearly enough.
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06:39:07 <oerjan> so i was thinking this morning that i didn't remember seeing a proof that you cannot get a contradiction simply from using join on rectangular lists, and decided to put that through quickcheck.
06:39:32 <oerjan> but it seems that doesn't work to get a counterexample.
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08:13:54 <mroman> http://i.imgur.com/LyOgG9R.png
08:14:01 <mroman> That's some weird looking fractal thingy
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08:20:06 <fizzie> The general style looks a lot like the usual (x*y)%N plot, with some sort of an extra tweak.
08:20:15 <fizzie> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%28x*y%29+mod+0.1%2C+x%3D-1..1%2C+y%3D-1..1
08:23:30 <Sgeo> Um. I just stumbled upon an attack POC that someone said "Do not disclose" next to
08:37:25 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Do not disclose | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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09:34:56 <J_Arcane> Is there any useful value in a POP instruction that sends the popped data nowhere? ie. just deletes the top of the stack?
09:36:15 <oerjan> immensely useful in underload :P
09:38:45 <J_Arcane> The machine spec I'm working on has two pop instructions. POP (h60) simple pulls the top of the stack and does nothing with it, POTA (h61) actually returns the value to the designated address.
09:39:06 <J_Arcane> This seems somewhat counter to expected operation re: most pop instructions I'm finding from other machines.
09:54:30 <mroman> if you can just adjust the Stack Pointer
09:54:40 <mroman> then no, such a POP instruction would be useless
09:55:03 <mroman> other than it might be a 1-byte instruction which add sp, 4 might not be
09:55:37 <J_Arcane> In this case, the stack pointer is internal, so it does seem like the easiest way to simply clear the stack.
09:56:28 <J_Arcane> I could make POTA the default behavior, and make a DEL instruction that does the delete top stack thing, but I think I like the current method better.
09:57:28 <mroman> or you introduce a NULL-register
09:57:45 <mroman> which writes to nirvana
09:58:15 <mroman> although that's pretty stupid
09:58:29 <mroman> because you probably would only use it in conjunction with POP
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10:25:49 <FireFly> MIPS' r0 acts as a /dev/null register, IIRC
10:26:03 <FireFly> or, well, as /dev/zero when read and as /dev/null when written to
10:26:49 <fizzie> That's how /dev/zero acts when written to.
10:26:56 <fizzie> So you can just say it acts as a /dev/zero register.
10:27:52 <fizzie> Writing to it causes a processor exception?
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11:05:43 <FireFly> Oh, makes sense that writing to /dev/zero would do nothing
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12:17:30 <Taneb> I am back on IRC, ho ho
12:32:07 <Taneb> It's a little weird downloading software from a server I've seen
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12:58:43 <Vorpal> <Taneb> It's a little weird downloading software from a server I've seen <-- oh?
13:04:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, visited Bytemark, who have a Debian package mirror
13:05:59 <Taneb> Like, I could get a bus to the magic internet place where software comes from
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13:10:32 <Taneb> And suddenly the magic isn't so magic any more?
13:10:42 <Taneb> I guess this may come from having grown up with the internet
13:11:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, I guess it was never magic for me to begin with
13:11:52 <Vorpal> Taneb, But then we didn't have Internet at home, until I was about 5 or 6. And that was a 28 kbit modem
13:12:10 <Vorpal> Didn't get always-connected until like 2004 or 2005?
13:12:23 <Vorpal> still have bloody ADSL
13:14:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have a test program for the wrapping s thing?
13:15:06 <Vorpal> So I can test it doesn't wrap properly
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13:34:11 <Taneb> `quote package manager
13:34:12 <HackEgo> 1056) <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
13:38:01 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie Do you have a test program for the wrapping s thing?
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14:02:33 <Melvar> Idris doesn’t need ZipList.
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14:24:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think something like what I tested with, ;@.g0+6a;#;_1'xs (and nothing else in the program) should print 120 if I counted right. If not, you can adjust the a6+ part to see what's what.
14:24:48 <fizzie> I was supposed to @tell that.
14:25:01 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal I think something like what I tested with, ;@.g0+6a;#;_1'xs (and nothing else in the program) should print 120 if I counted right. If not, you can adjust the a6+ part to see what's what.
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14:27:13 <fizzie> !befunge98 ;@.g0-10.g0+ca;#;_1'xs
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14:27:22 <fizzie> And that should print "120 32" instead of "32 120".
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16:15:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40279&oldid=40262 * Rdebath * (+1102) Expand on the interactions of variables and two small fixes.
16:18:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40280&oldid=40279 * Rdebath * (+31) /* Named stacks */
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19:46:16 <J_Arcane> I made a virtual machine. Not sure if it counts as an esolang, but I thought folks might be interested: https://github.com/jarcane/MicroMini
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19:50:58 <Bike> @google racket language
19:51:11 <Bike> have fun on your educational journey!
19:55:20 <int-e> nice post, "Chief philosophy officer"
19:56:22 <J_Arcane> myname: Racket is a Scheme derivative, formerly known as PLT Scheme. It's a Lisp, with a special focus on teaching and custom language/dialect development.
20:00:16 <int-e> hmm, apparently the meaning of PLT will never be known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3aRacket_%28programming_language%29#What_does_PLT_stand_for.3F
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20:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> at some point they patched the mechanics so old solutions don't work any more
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21:00:03 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: that was veeery long ago wasn't it
21:00:18 <fizzie> I'm suddenly reminded of Minecraft patching out buggy physics so that minecart boosters don't work.
21:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> see if you can get this to work: http://spacechem.net/solution/exploding-head-syndrome/76029
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21:01:51 <Taneb> fizzie, remember the ridiculous boat mechanics?
21:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> seems to be something to do with the bonder priority though; machines trying to recombine two H-O molecules to and H-H and O=O are the ones that keep failing]
21:03:00 <Taneb> Where you could literally be launched for meters upward in a boat
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21:03:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, I vaguely recall boatlevators.
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21:05:28 <fizzie> I made a Terraria infinite water/lava/obsidian generator the other day, and now I wonder when they are going to change their physics for that not to work any more.
21:06:44 <ais523_> fizzie: that sounds very Dwarf Fortress
21:07:12 <nooodl> i think i was late for minecraft physics being very dumb :(
21:08:31 <Taneb> I saw a quote somewhere that DF physics were so preposterous that they caused Isaac Newton to spin in his grave fast enough to power an entire fortress
21:08:51 <ais523_> well, there are various ways to construct perpetual motion machines in DF
21:09:12 <fizzie> ais523_: The way it works in Terraria is that liquids these days get subtly more volume when they run down stairs (they used to do it when just falling, but apparently that might not be quite the case now), so you just make a zigzag staircase in an enclosed space, then put a inlet pump at the bottom and outlet pump at the top, and it'll eventually fill the entire enclosure with the liquid.
21:09:16 <Taneb> Watermill and archimedes screw
21:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> well, all of them are just a pump bolted to a water wheel
21:09:26 <fizzie> Faster if it's water, since lava is more viscous.
21:15:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well great, the spacechem solutions website is well and truly down
21:16:16 <myname> find your own solution
21:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i gave up on bothering some time ago, i just want to watch the story and look at cool solutions now
21:18:51 <Taneb> I'm crap at spacechem
21:20:05 <fizzie> Have they added to the storyline or anything? I played it quite far through back then.
21:20:45 <Taneb> Like, I think I got to the second planet?
21:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i got to... a bit of the way through the third before giving up
21:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think spacechem really scales elegantly to more complex puzzles
21:22:17 <fizzie> I did at least the laser thing.
21:22:28 <fizzie> And some sort of a space shooter thing.
21:25:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I actually finished the very last level, but I at least got to it.
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21:30:14 <fizzie> I looked at the savefile SQL db, and select id, passed from Level where id like '%-boss'; says I've passed six bosses but not one.
21:31:12 <fizzie> For one of the boss fights I had a really crummy solution, and actually getting through was pretty much a fluke.
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22:10:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/2d56oy/software_engineers_will_understand/cjmc2yk
22:13:22 <Taneb> Although not unexpected
22:13:38 <Taneb> (I know someone who is porting an old fortran code base to python or something)
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22:42:43 <Sgeo> Some random person said "Its well written code Sgeo"
22:42:45 <Sgeo> Bit of an ego boost
22:43:30 <Taneb> I need to get more practise working on larger codebases
22:44:12 <Sgeo> This is a very small codebase, so that's convenient
22:45:46 <Taneb> Sgeo, what codebase?
22:45:58 <Sgeo> https://github.com/Sgeo/sgeo.github.io/blob/master/tagpromusic.htm
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23:07:57 <J_Arcane> I think I need to learn a different lisp.
23:15:52 <J_Arcane> http://imgur.com/gallery/wR3ZxfB
23:48:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Harpyon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40281&oldid=21665 * Harpyon * (-65) removed dead link