00:00:27 <olsner> also somewhat terrifying
00:01:00 <boily> olsner: yep :D sevilla, jerez, cádiz, gibraltar, marbella.
00:04:36 <boily> it was! lots of sun, old architecture, tapas...
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00:11:02 <boily> time to achieve sleep. 'night all!
00:11:12 <boily> (btw, where is Taneb?)
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01:12:14 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (!= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:12:16 <lambdabot> ‘!’ (imported from Data.Array), ‘M.!’ (imported from Data.Map),
01:12:16 <lambdabot> ‘IM.!’ (imported from Data.IntMap)Not in scope: ‘scramble’
01:13:13 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:13:51 <bb010g> @let scramble = concat . (_last %~ reverse) . transpose . chunksOf 2
01:14:05 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:14:20 <bb010g> 18:13:27 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:16:46 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:18:52 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "potato"
01:19:01 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "arbitrary phrase"
01:19:19 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "abc"
01:19:25 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "bcd"
01:20:01 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) $ take 8 [1..]
01:21:37 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) (take <$> length <*> id $ "CHICKEN!")
01:21:50 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) (take <$> length <*> const [1..] $ "CHICKEN!")
01:22:29 <bb010g> > ((\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) . flip take [1..]) <$> [1..]
01:22:32 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30...
01:23:22 <bb010g> Oh. We got that earlier. :(
01:49:58 <Sgeo> Time to complain about Haskell on Reddit.
01:50:10 <Sgeo> (And by Haskell, I mean one common example of a GHC language extension)
02:23:38 <bb010g> Sgeo: Which extension?
02:26:10 <Sgeo> DeriveGenerics
02:26:23 <Sgeo> Although I guess the Generics mechanism is closer to the actual issue
02:26:28 <Sgeo> And I guess that's not an extension?
02:26:43 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2douzn/problem_with_popular_ghcgenerics_example/
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13:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> my windows partition now boots into system restore, which faffs around for a while and then says nothing can be done
13:26:57 <oerjan> sounds like an analogy of my life
13:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> helpfully it also provides no meaningful diagnostic information
13:27:49 <J_Arcane> I spent this morning trying to fix broken graphics drivers in Debian only to discover that there's no fglrx-driver for jessie.
13:34:42 <Melvar> What do you need fglrx for?
13:57:04 <J_Arcane> opengl on my card is broken since the last kernel update. hell I don't even get proper framebuffer mode in the console. X still works, but Steam complains even starting and none of my games work because OpenGL is broken.
14:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> when i had a laptop with an intel chip there was some random driver update which made it crash if i ever used anything that tried to use shaders
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14:19:08 <J_Arcane> Phantom_Hoover: It's a Radeon, actually, but that is still sort of the problem.
14:19:28 <J_Arcane> AMD cut support for anything prior to the 5xxx series, and I have a 4890.
14:20:01 <J_Arcane> Yeah. I was an ATI loyalist for nearly a decade, but AMD has more or less murdered that with this card.
14:23:08 <fizzie> If I switch from X to a non-X virtual console, my machine beeps and irrevocably futzes up the display. Welcome to nvidia hell.
14:23:11 <fizzie> (Admittedly they say it doesn't play nice with framebuffer devices, but I haven't managed to disable the UEFI one in any way.
14:36:51 <Melvar> I have a Radeon HD 4650, and it’s been running fine with the radeon driver ever since AMD stopped updating fglrx for it.
14:39:37 <Melvar> Except a few days ago, when trying to get a game running in wine got the card to lock up, panicking the kernel. But between the support cut and a few days ago, I had no discernably graphics card related problems.
14:40:07 <elliott> Melvar: how long ago was the support cut? :p
14:46:16 <J_Arcane> Melvar: IF was on debian stable, it would've been fine, but there was a kernel update to testing, two actually in as many days, and ATI support broke with it. So unless someone patches it ...
14:47:57 <Melvar> elliott: I’m having a hard time finding it, but a few years certainly.
14:48:16 <elliott> Melvar: it would be funnier if the support cut, e.g. two months ago.
14:48:30 <elliott> that was how I originally read it and I'm not sure why.
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21:34:44 <oerjan> > 23514624000 :: Int32
21:37:57 <oerjan> > 23514624000 :: Int64
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21:45:41 <Phantom__Hoover> fuck me, virgin media have managed to ban all the torrentz proxies i can find
21:46:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en#downloads
21:46:56 <elliott> you click it, you open it, it's firefox, you use torrentz, job done?
21:47:24 <elliott> there is no reason to go around looking for website-specific proxies when tor does it better and just as easily
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21:51:51 <Bike> can you use bittorrent through tor?
21:51:55 <Bike> i have no idea how tor works, i think
21:52:06 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, but you shouldn't.
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21:52:35 <pikhq> Tor lets you essentially tunnel TCP streams through it.
21:52:57 <pikhq> Using BitTorrent on it is just rude, because it really strains the network.
21:53:34 <pikhq> Yeah. For that sort of thing you should just get some sort of VPN provider.
21:54:12 <elliott> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/bittorrent-over-tor-isnt-good-idea
21:54:40 <pikhq> Makes perfect sense that it's doing that, but yeah.
21:54:50 <pikhq> So, it's rude *and* defeats the point.
21:55:38 <pikhq> Oh, *right*, tracker communication is usually UDP.
21:55:50 <pikhq> And uTP is tunneled over UDP as well.
21:55:55 <elliott> it's understandable that the tor browser bundle defaults to scripts being on these days but it still makes me :/
21:56:15 <elliott> even if they've gone to some length to minimise the fingerprinting you can do with it
21:57:20 <elliott> btw, you should stick to https:// versions of sites (torrentz does it) on tor if at all possible, since exit relays can do whatever they want with your traffic
21:57:34 <elliott> probably not a big deal for torrenting though
21:57:47 <pikhq> Combination of the network getting much faster and the Tor browser bundle doing some stuff to make HTTP work better over a high-latency link.
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21:58:06 <elliott> but entering passwords unencrypted over Tor is sort of a bad idea. (admittedly, that applies to the internet at large, but Tor makes it easier to be the man in the middle)
21:58:22 <elliott> pikhq: huh, what special stuff does it do? that sounds interesting
21:59:01 <pikhq> In short, uses Polipo as a proxy. Main notable thing that Polipo does is HTTP pipelining.
21:59:12 <pikhq> Which believe it or not *browsers still don't do*.
21:59:33 <elliott> I seem to remember hearing a good reason for that, but I forget what it was
21:59:49 <pikhq> Misbehaving servers screw it up.
22:00:22 <pikhq> Which is why Polipo actually keeps data on whether or not a given server behaves. :)
22:00:47 <elliott> it'd be nice to live in a world where the Tor network was low-latency and high-capacity enough to run all traffic over it, and it supported UDP
22:01:02 <pikhq> The other reason for using Polipo is that Polipo can just tunnel over SOCKS, which makes using Tor for HTTP stuff *really easy*.
22:01:16 <elliott> Tor is already a SOCKS proxy
22:01:25 <pikhq> Yes, but Polipo is an HTTP proxy.
22:01:42 <elliott> oh, um, I guess I don't know what you mean by the line I replied to
22:01:55 <pikhq> That can talk SOCKS instead of dialing out via normal TCP.
22:02:25 <pikhq> I.e. you can do browser -> polipo -> tor.
22:02:52 <pikhq> Not *that* helpful for Firefox, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't speak SOCKS but does speak HTTP proxy.
22:03:24 <elliott> I take back my previous statement. it'd be nice to live in the world where the global network was anonymous, encrypted and authenticated by design.
22:04:23 <pikhq> There's a lot of incredibly stupid and pointless lacks-of-security in networking...
22:04:59 <elliott> ideally IP addresses would just be randomly-generated public keys, I think.
22:05:33 <pikhq> If designing from the ground up? Probably.
22:05:54 <elliott> well, yes. how else are you going to get a network that's anonymous, encrypted and authenticated by design?
22:06:50 <pikhq> Pity security's hard.
22:08:09 <Phantom__Hoover> speaking of which, magnets are just hashes of their files, right?
22:08:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: plus a list of trackers, often
22:08:27 <pikhq> magnet URIs for BitTorrent? Basically, yeah.
22:08:49 <pikhq> Slightly more complicated than that, but it amounts to just a hash of the contents.
22:08:51 <Phantom__Hoover> i know collisions are very unlikely under normal circumstances, but could you not construct two files with the same hash and use that to nefarious ends?
22:09:00 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: my ecommendation for getting torrents you found on torrentz is to use https://torcache.net/torrent/<torrent hash from the torrentz url>.torrent
22:09:04 <pikhq> Yes. Yes you could.
22:09:10 <elliott> if you can construct two files with the same hash, you can break a lot more than bittorrent
22:09:24 <pikhq> Though the hash is, of course, really dang hard to break.
22:09:33 <pikhq> Especially because the BT info hash is a hash of hashes...
22:09:41 <elliott> pikhq: I sometimes worry the security-is-impossible fearmongering makes us all give up on security.
22:09:52 <ais523_> elliott: well MD5 collisions are within the range of normal people now, aren't they?
22:09:54 <pikhq> elliott: Quite likely.
22:10:06 <elliott> wow, bittorrent still uses md5?
22:10:09 <pikhq> ais523_: Mostly length extension attacks.
22:10:16 <ais523_> elliott: no, but my point is
22:10:28 <ais523_> that hashes once thought secure have a tendency to not be
22:10:30 <elliott> ais523_: well, the idea is to move off a hash before there are practical breaks of it
22:10:31 <Phantom__Hoover> well i know random hash collisions are almost impossible, and that engineering a hash collision for a predetermined file is just as impossible, but not what the situation was with two files you both picked
22:10:39 <elliott> ais523_: protocols should plan ahead for changing the hash they use
22:10:54 <pikhq> Perversely BitTorrent totally has not.
22:11:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: if we know x, y s.t. hash(x) = hash(y) no matter how we derived x and y then that hash function is well beyond dead and buried, basically
22:11:40 <ais523_> incidentally, I sometimes use MD5 when I want a hash that doesn't have random collisions, and don't care about it being a cryptohash
22:11:56 <pikhq> ais523_: For that I'd actually recommend using CRC32.
22:11:57 <ais523_> because it's the most likely to be in language stdlibs
22:12:04 <pikhq> At least then you don't pretend it has security.
22:12:25 <ais523_> pikhq: that's got like a 1 in 60000 chance of random collisions because of the birthday paradox
22:12:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: finding x, y s.t. H(x) = H(y) is finding a collision; finding x s.t. H(x) = h for some known h is a preimage attack; finding y =/= x s.t. H(y) = H(x) for known x is a second-preimage attack
22:12:57 <elliott> collisions are easier than preimage attacks. preimage attacks are what you need to break passwords, say
22:13:01 <pikhq> ais523_: Well. True. *shrug*
22:13:14 <elliott> but being able to do any of them in practice means we should have moved off that hash years ago
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22:14:01 <ais523_> I think the current belief is that if a hash turns out to be even one bit less secure that people thought it was, it's likely going to be broken at some point and you should move on
22:14:41 <pikhq> Better paranoid than hacked.
22:14:42 <ais523_> that's why people are dubious about SHA-1, there are no practical or even impractical attacks generally known, but IIRC there is a way to brute-force it slightly faster than the theoretical maximum
22:14:53 <elliott> http://valerieaurora.org/monkey.html has some nice tables that may be outdated by now
22:15:05 <elliott> well, is definitely outdated; only goes to 2009
22:15:20 <ais523_> pikhq: I agree with that practice, basically if your hash isn't as strong as you thought it was, it means you don't understand it properly
22:15:27 <ais523_> and someone else might understand it better than you
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