00:02:28 <Bike> deep
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00:22:03 <Sgeo> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9453
00:22:07 <Sgeo> Whee
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02:55:42 <Sgeo> Did ASP.NET and Netscape Navigator live concurrently?
02:56:04 <Sgeo> I found a website with an FAQ talking about Netscape Navigator, but written in ASP.NET
03:15:48 <Sgeo> https://www.sss.gov/RegVer/wfContentRegistrationFAQs.aspx
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04:04:36 <Sgeo> My dad seems to assume I was automatically registered, because this is the computer age, and 'Uncle Sam knows all!'
04:04:47 <Sgeo> Uh. That was meant for a different channel.
04:05:22 <boilyphone> Everything is meant for here. Especially that which isn't.
04:06:12 <lexande> Sgeo: the FAQ could have just been imported automatically somehow
04:06:34 <Bike_> man i hope you ain't talkin bout SSS
04:06:37 <Sgeo> That's scarier. Technical FAQ for a site unrelated to the FAQ
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04:07:32 <lexande> Sgeo: but anyway Netscape made Mozilla and later Firefox based releases thru 2007
04:07:43 <lexande> ASP.NET released january 2002
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04:15:50 <Sgeo> Why does this PDF exist? http://www.sss.gov/SSSYOU/sss&you.pdf
04:18:15 <Bike> what the heck sgeo, haven't you already graduated college?
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04:35:44 <pikhq> I think the most notable feature of those Netscape releases was that it had AIM built in too.
04:35:50 <pikhq> I don't know why but it totally did.
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06:46:10 <lexande> Bike: you can register until you turn 25.  in later life government jobs and such may autoreject you if you never registered, but not care if you registered late.  so registering soon before their 25th birthday is a thing people do.
06:46:42 <Bike> yeah, but i thought you needed SSS to get federal loans for school, see
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08:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40304&oldid=40297 * Rdebath * (+40) Normal implementations: Found a few zombie links
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09:11:22 <oerjan> ff today's tunes logs aren't recognized as text again :(
09:11:40 <oerjan> (and codu logs are still down)
09:12:19 <oerjan> well time to pipe through wget
09:12:53 <shachaf> you could just not read the logs for a few days
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09:14:18 <oerjan> but then i wouldn't know what was happening :(
09:15:10 <oerjan> also, it's just today.  it seems to happen whenever HackEgo makes a wiki announcement near the beginning of the logs; the ^Cs confuse IE to think it's not text
09:16:04 <oerjan> for yesterday's logs, it recognizes that it's text, but not that it's utf-8
09:20:56 <shachaf> Oh, this is an IE thing, not a server-side content-type thing?
09:23:54 <oerjan> well it's presumably a combination
09:24:16 <oerjan> as in, the server does nothing and IE tries to guess
09:25:51 <oerjan> ok, maybe the server sends text/plain and IE tries to be too clever
09:28:01 <oerjan> *-maybe
09:28:13 * oerjan found the right option to show the headers with wget
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09:50:16 <oerjan> ah putting http://tunes.org in restricted zone disables it
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10:20:30 <Taneb> fungot, what wisdom have you to share?
10:20:40 <Taneb> fungot?
10:20:44 <Taneb> FUNGOT!?
10:20:49 <Taneb> fizzie, ?
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10:21:01 <oerjan> brave sir fungot ran away
10:22:08 <boily> Tanelle. hellørjan.
10:23:05 <shachaf> boillo
10:24:30 <oerjan> fternoily
10:25:21 <shachaf> i have mail addressed to a person which was accidentally delivered to me
10:25:32 <shachaf> what are the best strategies on getting it to that person
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10:33:07 <boily> shachaf: regular mail, or internal or something exotic?
10:33:26 <shachaf> regular mail
10:33:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: try to meet the postman when he comes to your house, and give the mail to him or her telling it's misdelivered
10:33:54 <shachaf> the mail was delivered some months ago to a mailbox some hundreds of miles away
10:34:03 <shachaf> (more hundreds of miles than months)
10:36:13 <shachaf> here is a game: if your operation is "translate from language X to Y, then transliterate from Y to X", how long of a chain can you make of this operation?
10:36:57 <b_jonas> I think there was a chain of 3 from short words or something. chain of 2 is easy of course
10:37:27 <b_jonas> wait, I think you can make an infinite chain from a simple fixed point
10:37:36 <b_jonas> does that count?
10:38:12 <shachaf> i guess fixed points make it too easy
10:38:29 <Taneb> Trivia: XBox 360 support sucks
10:38:33 <b_jonas> so do you count only the number of unique edges?
10:38:49 <shachaf> sure, you can say that
10:39:11 <b_jonas> ok, let me think what was the length 3 chain
10:49:43 <b_jonas> I guess you could get choose(n,2) edges from a set of n synonms that work in two related languages
10:49:50 <b_jonas> no wait
10:49:57 <b_jonas> n*(n-1) edges actually
10:50:15 <b_jonas> so let's say you want a subjectively nice chain
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10:56:26 <oerjan> i assume the transliteration is trivial if they share an alphabet
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11:10:53 <shachaf> oerjan: i think i'd allow you to change the spelling in some cases
11:11:06 <shachaf> and also pick the optimal reasonable translation to make the chain work
11:11:13 <shachaf> i don't know
11:36:19 <TieSoul> I'm solving Project Euler in Befunge :P
11:36:29 <TieSoul> Befunge-98 that is
11:36:57 <TieSoul> I've now solved problems 1, 2 and 6 in Befunge
11:38:19 <b_jonas> TieSoul: nice
11:38:38 <TieSoul> I could solve 5 too
11:38:41 <TieSoul> :P
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12:32:38 <fungot> HELLO I AM BACK
12:32:54 <Deewiant> fungot: o rly
12:32:54 <fungot> Deewiant: but don't force applications to be written to at some point add " if already defined, override the old one
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12:38:42 <TieSoul> yay fungot is back
12:38:42 <fungot> TieSoul: i need to convince to get one, but i am
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14:28:50 <Sgeo> Apparently I am registered for the selective service
14:35:13 <elliott> presumably you registered when you were 18...?
14:35:25 <Sgeo> A few months late, but yes.
14:35:39 <Sgeo> I kind of forgot I did it. And my dad's response when I asked yesterday was not reassuring
14:36:16 <elliott> why is being eligible for conscription reassuring
14:36:51 <Sgeo> Eligable for an unlikely conscription that I'm required by law to register for
14:37:12 <elliott> stay in school and don't do drugs
14:39:38 <Sgeo> I think I do tend to be a rules follower, with some exceptions
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14:47:37 <elliott> people who think following the law is moral scary
14:47:43 <elliott> *are scary
14:52:43 <Sgeo> BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE
14:52:53 <TieSoul> lolwat
14:53:18 <TieSoul> There should be an esolang called BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE now
14:53:19 <Sgeo> Hey there's actually a relevent hit when I google that
14:53:32 <TieSoul> It should be like Text
14:53:35 <TieSoul> but backward
14:54:18 <Sgeo> Ugh in 5 min need to take really bad tasting medicine
15:00:05 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have permission for that?
15:00:05 <fungot> b_jonas: you don't mind kicking the original oklopol off and speak swedish too. that's what i'm trying to figure out how
15:00:15 <b_jonas> oh, true
15:00:29 <b_jonas> but fungot, next time, ask for permission in advance
15:00:29 <fungot> b_jonas: prolog or another logic language, obviously you'll need to write a program that can traverse the network and files and parsers. this is an infinite loop, it's obvious
15:00:39 <b_jonas> no it's not
15:05:28 * Sgeo survived
15:10:05 <TieSoul> grats
15:10:45 <b_jonas> survived what?
15:10:49 <b_jonas> oh, the medicine?
15:11:33 <Sgeo> yes
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15:33:38 <fizzie> Egassem Drawkcab is probably someone's name.
15:46:21 <int-e> ...
15:48:40 <int-e> I love google. 1st page "About 1,360 results", second page "Page 2 of about 1,360 results", 3rd page "Page 3 of about 1,360 results", 4th page "Page 4 of 39 results"
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16:01:14 <elliott> int-e: I wonder how they actually estimate those result counts.
16:01:38 <elliott> like, presumably they're not entirely random, but also presumably they devote sufficiently little of their tiny time budget to it that they must be doing something incredibly rough.
16:01:50 <elliott> and they seem to consistently overestimate, which I guess is the right thing to do if you want to look impressive.
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16:12:44 <int-e> elliott: Well, first they compute the counts before the elimination of duplicates ("similar results"); with those included, for the same query, I get "Page 46 of 456 results" on the last page, and a factor of 3 is far more reasonable than a factor of 40.
16:13:39 <elliott> int-e: wow, I didn't know they counted so many things as duplicates
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17:26:55 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140818-calc.jpg   we had a calculator almost exactly like this at my (late) grandmother's.
17:27:27 <fizzie> (That one's from a shop window in Rauma.)
17:28:22 <fizzie> Somehow a crank generally makes things better.
17:29:04 <ion> nice
17:32:03 <fizzie> You can shift the lower portion to do decimal positional multiplication, at the cost of (at most) 9*K crankings, where K is the length of the shorter multiplicand.
17:32:56 <fizzie> (And IIRC the bottom-left part counts the number of crankings so that you don't lose track.)
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18:02:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I tried one of those calculators once. they're really nice.
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20:02:26 <Sgeo> Why does statically typed Python excite me but statically typed Racket scare me? I may be insane
20:03:09 <Bike> have you ever spent a few hours methodically writing insults on paper, and then ripping them up and arranging them into statuettes
20:03:51 <ais523> no
20:04:03 <Bike> good to hear
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20:05:13 <ais523> @tell nooodl I didn't think that $__ was legal in Perl, you'd have to write it ${'__'}
20:05:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:05:33 <ais523> !perl $__ = 4; print "$__\n"
20:05:35 <EgoBot> 4
20:05:45 <ais523> @tell nooodl well according to EgoBot, I'm wrong
20:05:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:06:10 <mauris> ais523: yeah i didn't actually know for sure but apparently it's legal!
20:06:24 <ais523> I guess it's because _ isn't technically a punctuation mark
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20:11:36 <Taneb> ais523, Perl scares me :/
20:11:47 <Taneb> Yet APL intrigues me
20:11:51 <Taneb> What's up with that
20:16:16 <fizzie> There was a machine in a museum.
20:16:28 <fizzie> You wrote stuff on pieces of paper, and then fed it to the machine.
20:16:40 <fizzie> Then it did an overly elaborate shredder act.
20:16:54 <myname> Taneb: do some J
20:17:09 <fizzie> I think the idea was that you wrote negative things on the paper, and hence got rid of them.
20:18:32 <Taneb> myname, I kind of want the crazy character set
20:19:12 <myname> :D
20:19:37 <Taneb> Anyone know where I can buy an APL or blank keyboard?
20:19:45 <Taneb> For like cheap
20:20:04 <olsner> APL is beautifully incomprehensible, Perl is uglily incomprehensible
20:20:51 <mauris> Taneb: stickers!
20:22:49 <b_jonas> Taneb: I never understood what the fuss about blank keyboards was. I don't look at the keyboard, so why would it be a problem if it has irrelevant keycaps written on it?
20:23:05 <myname> style
20:23:20 <Taneb> b_jonas, learning more than anything
20:23:23 <Taneb> Also I am forgetful
20:24:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: could you use some sort of opaque silk scarf veil covering the whole keyboard and you slide your hands under it?
20:24:43 <b_jonas> I admit I've never tried that, it might not work
20:25:33 <olsner> I think proper touch typing courses have some sort of screen that goes over the keyboard
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20:26:12 <b_jonas> olsner: right, that's what I said, but I'm not sure how realistically possible that is
20:26:31 <b_jonas> like, without making typing or seeing the screen too inconvenient
20:27:04 <b_jonas> let me tell you an anecdote
20:27:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, the issue is that I don't know the keyboard layout, so either I do a touch-typing thing before I even begin to learn the language, or I look at the keyboard
20:27:47 <b_jonas> at one point I almost bought a used mobile phone with russian letters on the keypad. my father didn't understand why I'd use such a thing. I didn't understand why not: it's not like I look at the letters when typing on the keypad anyway.
20:28:00 <b_jonas> I'm not using that phone, but that's for reasons other than the keypad.
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20:28:23 <b_jonas> Taneb: use a chart either on a paper on the wall, or on screen
20:28:31 <Taneb> That is a possibility
20:28:35 <b_jonas> either of those are easier to change than the keycaps anyway
20:28:46 <b_jonas> (the keycaps aren't impossible to change either, just much harder)
20:28:58 <b_jonas> I've used a paper chart once when learning dvorak
20:29:05 <b_jonas> (I don't use dvorak. it turns out it's a bad layout.)
20:30:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: an on-screen or paper legend can also show more modal or shifted meanings for the keys than would fit on the keyboard itself,
20:30:26 <Taneb> ^source
20:30:26 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:30:34 <b_jonas> and you can see a paper or on-screen chart without having to move your hands off the normal position on the keyboard
20:30:51 <b_jonas> which can be useful if you want to learn proper touch-typing
20:31:14 <b_jonas> it means you can move your hands the way you should touch-type, only possibly slowe
20:31:16 <b_jonas> r
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20:31:45 <Taneb> Good point
20:32:39 <b_jonas> I personally think the blank keyboards are just a show-off, the blank labels are for people other than the one typing on the keyboard
20:34:45 <b_jonas> now of course keycaps can be important on public terminals that untrained people want to use, but those terminals rarely have good keyboards because good keyboards are easy to vandalize. they have touchscreen or sturdy metal buttons
20:34:49 <ais523> just use a blank keyboard and never write on the keys
20:35:05 <ais523> I have a set of blank dice which I occasionally roll for amusement value in situations where a genuine dice roll is needed
20:35:19 <b_jonas> ais523: Taneb started by asking where to buy blank keyboards
20:35:24 <b_jonas> ais523: hehe, blank dice
20:35:27 <b_jonas> nice
20:35:52 <ais523> actually a blank keyboard would probably work better than my current work keyboard
20:35:59 <ais523> which is set to UK layout but has AZERTY key caps
20:36:17 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm asking again, why do the keycaps matter?
20:36:34 <int-e> ais523: does that work better than a UK layout one set to US layout?
20:36:35 <b_jonas> I know why the layout matters, eg. 101 keys vs 102 keys, crazy arrow keys, etc
20:36:47 <ais523> b_jonas: because it seems I subconciously look at the difference between punctuation and letters to position my hands
20:36:56 <ais523> so I keep hitting m when I mean , etc.
20:37:10 <ais523> int-e: yes, on the UK set to US layout I have a huge pain finding the punctuation
20:37:17 <int-e> (Oh I just realized that I no longer have this problem, I bought a new keyboard two months ago)
20:37:22 <olsner> you should use the knobs on f and j to orient your hands
20:37:28 <ais523> olsner: I move my hands too much
20:37:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that sometimes happens to me and confuses me for round parenthesis specifically, but I should just try not to look. 
20:37:35 <ais523> home row is too slow
20:37:36 <int-e> (so now it's US/US)
20:37:37 <olsner> I like to drum on them when idling
20:37:55 <ais523> also, often my right hand's on hjkl
20:38:02 <ais523> e.g. NetHack, although vi invented it
20:38:08 <b_jonas> really? I never put my hands on hjkl
20:38:19 <b_jonas> I just put my hands on jkl; and type hjkl in nethack that way
20:38:21 <fizzie> Taneb: Just buy the Optimus. (Are they still even selling that?)
20:38:25 <b_jonas> I don't use vi, mind you
20:38:25 <int-e> asdw is so much nicer :P
20:38:31 <b_jonas> int-e: NO!
20:38:33 <ais523> b_jonas: wow, you're missing half the adnnatage of vikeys there
20:38:34 <olsner> vi inherited that from some more ancient place
20:38:37 <olsner> iirc
20:38:57 <b_jonas> ais523: why? because yb are harder to type this way?
20:39:02 <int-e> b_jonas: the only reason why I can even use vim for small edits is that it understands cursor keys.
20:39:10 <mauris> ais523: wow which azerty
20:39:20 <ais523> b_jonas: also you have h and j on the same finger, that slows you down
20:39:25 <ais523> mauris: I assume French
20:39:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think that matters
20:39:41 <ais523> not sure, though, I'm not an expert on azerty
20:39:43 <b_jonas> reaching yb might matter
20:39:46 <fizzie> CERN keyboards were azerty.
20:39:50 <b_jonas> yb is hard
20:39:51 <fizzie> Meant a lot of misplaced q's.
20:40:09 <olsner> I thought azerty was german, but maybe the french have it too
20:40:24 <ais523> german is qwertz
20:40:30 <int-e> german is qwertziopü
20:40:33 <olsner> hmm, ok
20:40:43 <ais523> I know that one because "add a way to swap y and z" is one of the most common FRs to NetHack from German players
20:41:08 <b_jonas> int-e: yes
20:41:50 <int-e> the biggest problem that I had when switching from german to US layout was that I kept minimizing my emacs window when copying stuff
20:41:58 <int-e> because C-y became C-z.
20:42:02 <fizzie> Switzerland has different keyboards at the different language areas, I presume.
20:42:23 <mauris> my keyboard has an unshifted µ key that's how you know it's good
20:42:34 <ais523> int-e: I sometimes set C-z on the "show a confirm before using this" setting
20:42:37 <ais523> it's so annoying to typo
20:42:37 <int-e> mauris: useful.
20:42:38 <b_jonas> btw, two people typing on the same keyboard can be confusing: I do that a little at work such that I use either english or hungarian qwerty, whereas other people use hungarian qwertz, so the yz swaps are crazy
20:42:52 <ais523> I just downloaded a Firefox extension so that I could unbind C-q in Firefox, for similar reasons
20:42:59 <fizzie> My keyboard has an unshifted § key, that's p. useful too.
20:43:02 <mauris> int-e: numbers are shifted though!!
20:43:05 <fizzie> E.g., if you write a lot of laws.
20:43:23 <int-e> mauris: I have 1234567890 reasons against that
20:43:27 <olsner> where's q on azerty? next to s?
20:43:32 <mauris> yeah
20:43:34 <mauris> qsdfghjklm
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20:45:05 <b_jonas> I still wonder if I should try another keyboard layout
20:45:17 <b_jonas> haven't dared yet after the failure with dvorak
20:45:43 <mauris> b_jonas: failure how so
20:46:15 <b_jonas> mauris: I learnt it a bit, but it turns out dvorak is stupid, it doesn't combine with Hungarian text well:
20:46:52 <b_jonas> dvorak is based on the principle that the vowels are under your left hand and the consonants are on the right, but Hungarian has two extra vowels that are very common and seven more that are less common
20:47:04 <b_jonas> so dvorak only works for Englih
20:47:23 <b_jonas> the other part is that Hungarian has "k" common and "h" rare, the opposite of English
20:47:35 <ais523> b_jonas: do Hungarian keyboards have different keys for each vowel? or do you use modifiers for the accents?
20:48:13 <b_jonas> ais523: Hungarian has the nine vowels on where English has punctuation marks:
20:48:26 <b_jonas> the two most common vowels are on ; and '
20:48:32 <ais523> interesting
20:48:32 <b_jonas> to the right of L that is
20:48:43 <ais523> that explains why you're less willing to move your home position to the left, at least
20:48:52 <fizzie> That's where the Finnish/Swedish keyboard layout puts öä.
20:48:55 <ais523> is there one in the position where # is on a UK keyboard?
20:48:59 <b_jonas> what? do you do that for typing English too? not just for vi or nethack?
20:48:59 <fizzie> And å next to p.
20:49:07 <b_jonas> I mean, I don't type Hungarian in nethack
20:49:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: right, and German is something similar too
20:49:30 <olsner> hm, I read that as ; and ' being vowels in hungarian
20:49:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I move my hands dynamically as I type
20:49:47 <fizzie> We don't have any extra vowels in the number row, though.
20:49:51 <ais523> e.g. in the above sentence, I typed the "y" of "dynamically" with my left hadn
20:49:53 <ais523> *hand
20:49:58 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you type lots of numbers you put yoru hands on the number row
20:50:00 <ais523> because my right hand is further right typing the "l" just before it
20:50:20 <ais523> basically my fingers memorize a word at a time and I use the most appropriate hand movements for that word
20:50:33 <ais523> (I'm pretty sure that's what's happening, because sometimes I type a homophone rather than the word I want)
20:50:38 <olsner> fungot: where are your vowels?
20:50:39 <fungot> olsner: so i'd best name my vm primitive fnord, which is like boolf with trinary numbers instead, and most probably unrelated to the interface to dumping fasls may be somewhat more intuitive to me but
20:50:46 <b_jonas> ais523: well, y and b and 6 are a corner case, they're hard to reach with either hand so I can sometimes type with the wrong hand, 
20:50:54 <b_jonas> but that doesn't mean I move the base position of my hands
20:52:26 <b_jonas> I move the base position when I type lots of numbers, or when I press the cursor keys or similar a lot, or for some non-nethack games
20:53:08 <b_jonas> or when I type with one hand, or holding something in my hand
20:53:54 <b_jonas> I can sort of understand changing hand base position for a game like nethack, but I don't think it's useful for nethack's current layout
20:54:40 <b_jonas> if it was, that probably meant the diagonal directions are just bound to the wrong keys, and yb should have functions you press less often in rapid sessions
20:55:08 <ais523> b_jonas: you have one orthogonal on each finger
20:55:13 <ais523> you can't get any less hand movement than that
20:55:43 <b_jonas> ais523: but it's not the h but the yb that requires difficult hand movements
20:55:54 <b_jonas> h is not harder to press then uio is
20:56:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not talking about difficult
20:56:05 <ais523> I'm talking about easy
20:56:10 <ais523> hjkl are all very trivial to press
20:56:11 <ais523> there is /no/ movement
20:56:13 <b_jonas> yes
20:56:15 <ais523> as opposed to, if your hand is on jkl;
20:56:18 <b_jonas> but you do move diagonally too
20:56:18 <ais523> then you have to move for the h
20:56:24 <ais523> it's easy, but it's still some amount of movement
20:56:28 <ais523> and most moves are orthogonal
20:56:33 <b_jonas> are they?
20:56:47 <b_jonas> I thought like almost half moves are diagonal
20:56:51 <b_jonas> in nethack, not in vi
20:57:09 <b_jonas> if you press hjkl much more than yubn, that probably means you don't use g or 9 enough for corridors
20:58:06 <b_jonas> well, maybe there are more orthogonal moves in sokoban 
20:58:08 <b_jonas> I hate soko
20:58:15 <b_jonas> but there's a bug ticket for that
20:58:46 <b_jonas> #117
21:00:16 <ais523> b_jonas: I use shift-direction for corridors
21:00:39 <b_jonas> ais523: then why are you getting most moves orthogonal?
21:00:59 <ais523> b_jonas: because most rooms aren't square and don't have doors on opposite corners
21:01:13 <b_jonas> hmm
21:02:07 <b_jonas> wait, I think I understand
21:02:52 <b_jonas> as I play much more slowly, most of my move keystrokes are local moves for combat or item manipulation or similar; far travel takes few keystrokes relatively.
21:03:05 <b_jonas> whereas you play fast, so most of your moves are for discovery or traversing the dungeon the first time
21:03:11 <b_jonas> that could make a difference, and could explain this
21:03:39 <ais523> yes, I play quite fast
21:03:44 <b_jonas> probably I use more orthogonal move for first discovery of a dungeon too
21:04:44 <b_jonas> and of course lots of the directional keystrokes are for targetting stuff, such as for farlook or travel, 
21:04:53 <b_jonas> and diagonals come handy for that, especially shift-diagonals
21:05:54 <ais523> well, whether you have more orthogonals or diagonals on targeting depends on whether the difference between the x and y coordinates is more than a factor of 2 or not
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21:07:04 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but also a lot of far targetting is just _<; or _>; so the directional key targetting goes nearer
21:07:04 <ais523> b_jonas: try ttyrec2ing your play some time
21:07:09 <ais523> and see whether you use orthogonal or diagonal more
21:07:13 <ais523> I'd be interested
21:07:19 <b_jonas> I do have ttyrecs
21:07:25 <b_jonas> but I don't think I'll check
21:07:30 <b_jonas> I can send them to you if you want
21:08:10 <b_jonas> I have ttyrecs of almost all of that wizard game on nh4.2 that's sort of on a hiatus now
21:08:20 <b_jonas> should ascend it eventually
21:08:32 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean ttyrec2
21:08:36 <ais523> it records input as well as output
21:08:49 <ais523> I guess you could just look through the logfiles for diagonal movement commands, though
21:09:09 <b_jonas> ah
21:09:12 <b_jonas> does it record password?
21:09:43 <ais523> there's a key combo you can use around your password to tell it not to
21:09:46 <ais523> but otherwise yes
21:12:17 <b_jonas> the logfile doesn't record location prompts though, and I don't know how easy it is to find out about repeated or travel movement from it
21:15:17 <ais523> it does record location prompts
21:15:31 <b_jonas> sure, but not the keystrokes I pressed for them
21:15:34 <ais523> but you'd need to parse the save file backups to work out where the player was before the prompt
21:15:37 <b_jonas> so it can't tell how I moved the cursor
21:15:49 <b_jonas> I might not press the optimal keypresses for a location prompt 
21:15:53 <b_jonas> and there's lot of farlook too
21:16:10 <ais523> farlook isn't recorded
21:16:12 <b_jonas> and I might be using shortcuts like _< 
21:16:15 <ais523> but you can do that with the mouse nowadays
21:16:25 <b_jonas> what? I don't mouse for nethack
21:16:29 <b_jonas> no way
21:16:32 <b_jonas> you can at least be sure of that
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21:22:03 <ais523> I got used to mouse for farlook from Brogue, where the keyboard farlook controls are awful
21:22:38 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, and of course the location prompt controls could be improved too (I think I have a bug report), but they're not bad
21:22:48 <b_jonas> (have to search it now
21:22:50 <b_jonas> )
21:23:11 <b_jonas> it's #113
21:23:17 <b_jonas> we're so on the wrong channel by the way
21:23:26 <b_jonas> well, not really
21:23:48 <b_jonas> but when #esoteric talks about nethack and #nethack talks about python lambdas, somethign is strange
21:24:25 <ais523> #esoteric is talking about keyboards :-)
21:25:47 <oerjan> <elliott> int-e: I wonder how they actually estimate those result counts. <-- my guess is they have the number of instances of each word, and calculate the probability for several words as if they were independent.
21:26:10 <elliott> ouch, that's /very/ rough
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21:26:25 <oerjan> perhaps with some exceptions for words that are commonly together
21:27:11 <elliott> I'm not convinced a query on google is either a straight AND or OR query these days, even with lots of fudging.
21:30:18 <oerjan> sometimes it's damn hard to get google to show relevant hits for what you want
21:30:38 <J_Arcane> yes.
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21:31:43 <J_Arcane> I was trying to find help for nero-mode in emacs last night and was utterly incapable of getting google to spit out anything useful.
21:31:56 <oerjan> when without quotes is too fudged and with quotes is too strict
21:32:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: try pluses
21:32:27 <b_jonas> but yes, it can be difficult
21:32:42 <oerjan> wait, do pluses do something still?
21:32:56 <oerjan> i thought they were completely abandoned as different from quotes
21:33:22 <elliott> with quotes is never too strict these days
21:33:26 <elliott> sometimes I'm not sure quotes do anything
21:33:33 <elliott> and yeah plusses were removed
21:33:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think pluses can make the query more like a straight AND query
21:33:41 <b_jonas> mroe like, not exactly the same
21:33:41 <elliott> they got deprecated
21:33:42 <elliott> because google+
21:33:45 <elliott> they do nothing now.
21:34:09 <b_jonas> elliott: what...
21:34:12 <int-e> quotes still do something
21:34:24 <elliott> b_jonas: e.g. http://www.wired.com/2011/10/google-kills-its-other-plus-and-how-to-bring-it-back/
21:34:24 <int-e> but indeed they used to be more strict
21:34:28 <oerjan> sure, quotes are certainly different
21:34:39 <elliott> http://searchengineland.com/google-sunsets-search-operator-98189
21:34:55 <elliott> int-e: yeah, they do something, but it sure as hell isn't anything close to "exactly match this string" :)
21:35:20 <oerjan> i sometimes add a quote to just a single word when google insists on showing lots of hits that leave it out.
21:35:44 <oerjan> i think it also helps with words that are not actually on the page. sometimes.
21:36:01 <b_jonas> elliott: I see
21:36:48 <oerjan> basically afaik google doesn't really have a search _language_, just searching hints...
21:36:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes
21:37:34 <b_jonas> it sometimes searches for variations of a word, or for words not appearing on a page but in other pages linking to that page, both of which can be sometimes useful, sometimes wrong
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21:41:03 <elliott> sometimes I get sick of google but then I try duckduckgo and I remember how kinda nice it is to have all your searches optimised based on your history and a strong AI behind every query.
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21:42:48 <zzo38> I find that using those history/strong AI often get in the way though (although, it can sometimes help)
21:43:09 <elliott> yeah.
21:43:55 <elliott> my experience was duckduckgo was fine for everything except computery/programming stuff (ironic considering how google's inability to search for symbols is an obstacle there too)
21:44:06 <elliott> for that it just gave mostly useless results and I think the targetting helps google a lot there.
21:45:25 <zzo38> If I want relevant stuff, looking on Wikipedia tends to help better, however it doesn't have as many things as Google. (This is why there is less irrelevant stuff involved)
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22:36:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40305&oldid=38146 * Taneb * (+116) Added another quote
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