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01:37:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: All glogged up again | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible. | 987659473857929758374956789.
01:39:48 <Gregor> I genuinely have no clue why it wasn't on...
01:40:10 <oerjan> out taking over the world maybe?
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01:48:55 <oerjan> @check \f g x -> ((maybeToList . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((maybeToList . f) <=< (maybeToList . g)) x
01:48:56 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe’
01:48:56 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Types.Bool -> Data.Maybe.Maybe () Actual type: GHC.Types....
01:49:56 <oerjan> fine tekmo you win this one
01:55:25 <oerjan> @check \f g x -> ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
01:55:27 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests):
01:55:43 <oerjan> that's the one i misread it as initially
01:56:37 <oerjan> hm quickcheck could do with some better printing of function counterexamples :P
02:00:15 <oerjan> > let x = (); g _ = [False,True]; f = flip when [] in ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
02:01:51 <oerjan> > let x = (); g _ = [True,False]; f = flip when [] in ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
02:04:00 <lambdabot> Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
02:04:48 <oerjan> it's like compose, except in a monad (kleisli) category.
02:05:10 <shachaf> it is compose in that category
02:05:40 <shachaf> oerjan: remind me what the thing about the kleisli category being the category of free algebras was?
02:06:38 <oerjan> long since forgotten, although istr all monads essentially coming from varieties of universal algebras
02:07:41 <oerjan> basically you get a monad by combining the adjunctions of the free and underlying functions of such a variety...
02:08:11 <oerjan> *combining the adjoint free
02:08:14 <shachaf> oh, variety is a technical word
02:08:45 <oerjan> basically "defined by equations", like monoids, groups or rings
02:09:59 <oerjan> if you can also have implications between equations, you have a quasi-variety
02:10:38 <oerjan> and fields don't count because you need to be able to have an implication from an _in_equality (x /= 0 => x has inverse)
02:11:00 <shachaf> that sounds more complicated than the thing about free algebras
02:11:30 <oerjan> well one of the things about varieties is that they _have_ free algebras.
02:11:58 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure on the spot if quasi-varieties do too, but e.g. fields don't.
02:13:31 <oerjan> a -> m b means of course a function from a to the free algebra on b, in this picture
02:14:07 <oerjan> or well, to the underlying set of the free algebra
02:14:07 <shachaf> wait, what's an algebra here
02:14:22 <oerjan> well for [] the algebras are monoids
02:14:29 <shachaf> i'm thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)#Algebras_for_a_monad
02:14:59 <shachaf> oh, maybe that page answers my question
02:16:10 <shachaf> i'm not sure it does, it just claims it's true
02:16:52 <oerjan> i am not about to try and understand that again
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02:21:20 <Jafet> "Quickcheck found a counterexample: f = (\<lambda>x. [])(False := [()]) g = \<lambda>x. [True, False] x = ()"
02:22:19 <Jafet> (This took longer than it should have, because HOL doesn't have proper monads)
02:23:03 <oerjan> that's exactly the same example, isn't it :P
02:23:24 <oerjan> except that f syntax is weird
02:25:00 <Jafet> It uses function update syntax
02:25:36 <oerjan> i still _think_ it's equivalent to the f = flip when [] that i wrote.
02:26:22 <Jafet> It looks like that's the only counterexample, up to permutations
02:26:48 <oerjan> well i think you could have more elements in the [()] list
02:26:53 <Jafet> (flip unless [] would also work, for example)
02:27:39 <oerjan> and more elements in the [True,False] list as well
02:29:54 <oerjan> f needs to return [] for the first element in the list g returns, and non-[] for some other element
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05:03:14 <fizzie> The wiki-to-IRC pipe should also be back up now.
05:03:19 <fizzie> (It's not automagicalized.)
05:04:09 <coppro> am I insane for wanting to do math in agda?
05:04:21 <coppro> I think I've lost track of what sane is these days
05:04:51 <Bike> have you been prescribed psychoactive drugs by a health maintenance institution
05:07:10 <coppro> but that's because I've been avoiding the shrinks
05:07:18 <coppro> also the grows, but that's less urgent
05:11:10 <elliott_> did you know some of us are actually mentally ill
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05:19:43 <oerjan> elliott_: hey stop scaring away the normals. both of them.
05:20:17 <quintopia> oerjan: we're all normal here. i'm normal. you're normal.
05:20:31 <oerjan> how do you know i'm normal.
05:45:41 <FreeFull> coppro: Why not do math in brainfuck?
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08:32:49 <Mikescher> !bfjoust mikescher_so_multivac_v1 http://maximum-sonata.codio.io/myBot.bfjoust
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08:47:55 <fizzie> Did Gregor just miss EgoBot too, or was that intentional?
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08:59:31 <impomatic_> Gregor: thanks for fixing the logging.
09:01:00 <impomatic_> Would it be possible for me to have the #corewars glogbackup logs check? (I generally follow up on any questions, comments etc from when I'm offline)
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10:35:46 <boily> glogbot: <boily> dextromethorphan hydrobromide, pseudoephedrine hydrochloride, guaifenesin, and acetaminophen.
10:35:57 <fizzie> boily: Are you TRYING to get us on some sort of a watch list?
10:39:26 <boily> fizzie: me? nah. nothing surprising at all in here. it's only cough syrup with some paracetamol in it.
10:40:21 <fizzie> boily: People do drink DXM for fun, you know.
10:43:39 <boily> people make purple drank for fun too. that's their problem, not mine.
10:44:08 <boily> (like that time my stupid cousin went to a bar one time, and downed a whole bottle of syrup during the night. I wonder how he's still alive.)
10:52:48 <fizzie> I guess it's a moot point, since a quick log-grep reveals (2011-07-02) someone conversing about how they "just cant seem to stop doing -- dissociative hallucinogens -- whether it be Ketamine or dextromethorphan". (In a discussion which I'm sure was very on-topic.)
10:53:11 <fizzie> Oh, it's on-topic, it's just the wrong topic, since it goes into "crowleyan magick" and "charging sigils" immediately after.
10:53:40 <fizzie> I don't think we've seen many "wrong kind of esoteric" visitors as of late.
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10:56:17 <boily> of the multiple wrong kinds, I don't think I have seen any hispanophones here lately.
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10:56:49 <b_jonas> huh? what's the problem with hispanophones? spanish isn't esoteric a language enough?
10:56:58 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess English is more esoteric
10:57:23 <Jafet> Judging from their channel topic, I believe #selinux has a related problem.
10:57:58 <fizzie> Heh, I parsed that as "Swedish Linux" before even thinking of SELinux.
10:58:40 <boily> b_jonas: same thing with us here. “spanish oteric”. we've got people from Colombia and Venezuela, mainly.
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11:04:30 <b_jonas> I thought most channels that are language-specific versions of other channels have a language code at the end of the name following either a "-" or a "." separator
11:04:36 <b_jonas> but of course the confusion can make sense
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11:06:49 <Jafet> The english-speaking channel for all emacs distributions, #emacsenen.
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11:38:09 <Melvar> quintopia: There appears to be a ddos attack going on again.
11:38:33 <quintopia> Melvar: same story, different attackers
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12:02:50 <DootBot> TieSoul: PogChamp seems everybody's roll say. pew three? essentially be bot get? ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ ##bottesting OR?
12:04:00 <quintopia> fungot seems to make slightly more sense
12:04:00 <fungot> quintopia: indeed you do, replace those square brackets make plt code hard to read
12:06:42 <TieSoul> Not really anything at the moment
12:06:56 <DootBot> TieSoul: lotid, anyways cole over seen? I've because of the 3 shit that reason have!
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13:24:10 * DootBot it'd TPP talked is could! KILL curve why on be. anyway. were is certain.
13:34:46 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:34:57 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:36:10 <myname> some time in the future we won't be able to write anything without triggering a bot
13:38:54 <Melvar> Given that several of the listed ones seem to be missing, I am not worried.
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13:43:10 <fizzie> EgoBot is (hopefully) only temporarily gone; there's the whole bfjoust community to take care of, after all.
13:43:31 <fizzie> And metasepia's intermittently here.
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13:49:21 <Melvar> Far as I can tell, jconn has been disappeared since May. I was going to say I don’t know I’ve seen blsqbot, but it’s been around.
13:56:56 <b_jonas> Melvar: I don't run jconn continuously, only start it occasionally from my home computer. The alternative is j-bot which fftw runs, and was in on #jsoftware about five hours ago, it just isn't set up to join this channel.
13:57:25 <b_jonas> The instance I run at home occasionally is evalj, with the prefix ]
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13:57:36 <b_jonas> and for jconn it's ) , yes
13:57:41 <b_jonas> but all of them listen to their name too
13:58:17 <b_jonas> I don't recall whose jconn is
13:58:25 <b_jonas> maybe it's jconn that's fftw's?
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15:16:29 <Bike> http://blog.openworm.org/post/96090226275/any-advanced-math-wizards-out-there
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15:59:38 <fizzie> b_jonas: Does "fftw" have anything to do with FFTW?
16:02:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I believe that's where he's got his nick
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17:22:19 <Sgeo_> Is there a function (a -> Bool) -> Traversal' a a such that the traversal it makes traverses only when its argument gives back true?
17:23:02 <Sgeo_> I have a feeling a function of that type might be a bit.. essential in a dynamically typed setting
17:24:13 <elliott> no, because you can pass back in an a that would fail the predicate, breaking the laws
17:25:07 <Sgeo_> Didn't there used to be a function that could break the laws?
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17:42:33 <Jafet> iceweasel (31.0-1) unstable; urgency=medium
17:42:34 <Jafet> * Since version 30.0, NTLMv1 authentication has been disabled because it's known as insecure. Companies and organizations still deploying the older protocol should upgrade to NTMLv2, unfortunately, it's not supported by iceweasel.
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19:10:47 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jeLQ -- this (picked up from ##c) was quite amusing. (Undefined, of course.)
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19:18:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aHQj is kind of analogous except relying on non-finite math rather than undefined stuff.
19:20:10 <`^_^v> what's the UB in the first one?
19:20:32 <fizzie> If you wonder about scanf(...) == 1, well, you know how GCC can be, all "warning: ignoring return value of 'scanf', declared with attribute warn_unused_result", so I just wrote an ion. (That's an assertion without the assert.)
19:21:13 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's generating a trap representation -- an object representation that does not represent a value of the type.
19:21:37 <fizzie> Well, not the generating, the act of reading it.
19:21:42 <olsner> representation of _Bool, I assume.. e.g. it might be a byte and might require that the byte be either 1 or 0
19:21:54 <fizzie> Yes, that's very conventional.
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19:22:28 <olsner> and if (v.c) could perhaps generate something like if (v.c == true), which would then fail
19:22:30 <fizzie> "Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined." (C11 6.2.6.1p5)
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19:26:24 <fizzie> That's quite close. Actually, with optimizations off, it does "xorl $1, %eax; testb %al, %al; je skip_over_the_true_branch" to perform the !v.c test.
19:27:03 <fizzie> With optimizations on, it might generate something else, but it also assumes (quite rightly) a boolean and only tests once.
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19:27:26 <fizzie> (In fact, my test case of if (x) f(); if (!x) f(); got turned into f(); alone.)
19:28:08 <olsner> the xor thing is odd though, if it does the test anyway, why not just do jne instead?
19:28:32 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's a straight-forward translation.
19:28:44 <olsner> ah, it was optimization off
19:28:59 <fizzie> Yes. The "!" is the "xorl $1, %eax" part, and then comes the if (...) part.
19:33:03 <fizzie> Curiously enough, this clang (with optimizations off) ands the _Bool value by 1 before doing any testing. With them on, it assumes, but also just tests once for nonzeroness. So both "work".
19:35:35 <zzo38> In LLVM there is the i1 type for booleans
19:40:15 <zzo38> But I think it would also be better the way Pascal does it; the type specifies the range of possible values.
19:45:02 <zzo38> So you can write it is 0 to 255, or whatever
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19:55:26 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5R#@6.@
19:55:37 <Tiesoul> is that supposed to happen?
19:56:28 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6. @
19:56:32 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
19:56:36 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6. @
19:56:40 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
20:01:46 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:02:15 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5R#@6.@
20:02:45 <Tiesoul> this should output 6 I think
20:03:03 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6.@
20:03:07 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
20:03:18 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(4K#@6.@
20:03:24 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(1K#@6.@
20:03:27 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(2K#@6.@
20:03:53 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(2R#@6.@
20:04:37 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4('#1X@5.@
20:04:44 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4('#2X@5.@
20:06:02 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(cA#@5.@
20:06:21 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(d0A#@5.@
20:06:30 <Tiesoul> this shouldn't happen I think
20:06:57 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(e01A#@5.@
20:07:20 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(d01A#@5.@
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20:15:16 <Taneb> Today I saw Guardians of the Galaxy, for the third time
20:15:37 <Taneb> Which I think makes it the movie I have seen the most number of times in a cimema
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20:56:35 <Taneb> It's a fun, light-hearted sci-fi movie
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21:17:26 <DootBot> Taneb: !guess can you change shit Kappa yourself!
21:17:57 <zzo38> What does that mean?
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22:13:54 <quintopia> no seriously there is a demon in this computer
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22:17:54 <Sgeo_> quintopia: I suggest dunking it in holy water.
22:18:51 <quintopia> Sgeo_: i don't have enough money to buy a replacement :/
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22:26:41 <b_jonas> so I'm reading the classic textbook Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling", (1972),
22:27:02 <b_jonas> and it seems like a really good book that tells what I wanted to learn about context-free languages in a style I like
22:27:28 <b_jonas> but there's a sentence in it that seems as if it's written to address the community of this channel specifically
22:28:54 <b_jonas> after stating that there are context-free languages that have no unambiguous context-free grammars, and that these are called inherently ambiguous, it states “no inherently ambiguous programming languages have been devised yet”
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22:35:15 <oerjan> hijsel (your nick is a pun on your real name, right?)
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22:36:16 <oerjan> that was to TieSoul-mobile
22:37:30 <oerjan> i saw his windows username in something he pasted
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22:42:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40358&oldid=40351 * B jonas * (+487) /* Mathematics */ inherently ambiguous context-free language
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22:46:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Not at all, Mr. Johansen.
22:48:01 <oerjan> although i'm not sure it counts when we put it openly in the real name field
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22:49:40 <b_jonas> does such a language already exist?
22:50:32 <oerjan> i recall oklopol had a language that guessed the meaning from the types
22:50:39 <oerjan> or something like that
22:54:01 <shachaf> coppro: asking "is anyone around?" when you have a specific question isn't very nice
22:58:32 <oerjan> :t \p -> prism' id (mfilter p)
22:58:34 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Applicative f) => (a -> Bool) -> p a (f (Maybe a)) -> p (Maybe a) (f (Maybe a))
22:59:44 <oerjan> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse.prism' id (mfilter odd) %~ (+2)
22:59:45 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:59:45 <lambdabot> Expected type: a -> Data.Maybe.Maybe a
23:00:11 <lambdabot> MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
23:00:47 <oerjan> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse.prism' id (mfilter odd.return) %~ (+2)
23:01:04 <oerjan> Sgeo_: ^ *MWAHAHAHAHA*
23:01:35 <shachaf> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse . filtered odd %~ (+2)
23:01:53 <oerjan> oh i didn't find that where i looked
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23:02:22 <oerjan> it can only traverse one item after all >:)
23:02:29 <Sgeo_> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse . filtered odd %~ (+1)
23:02:50 <oerjan> i suppose making it not a prism discourages using it in even more evil ways
23:03:58 <shachaf> it's even more law-violating as a prism
23:04:14 <shachaf> since there's no guarantee that the predicate applies to the thing you're constructing
23:04:50 * Sgeo_ ponders a Detect profunctor, that just contains a hashmap of symbols to bools, starting them all at true, and as various capabilities are used, setting them false as needed
23:04:56 <oerjan> right, but it breaks for the same reason - not treating the selected subset as a closed type
23:05:37 <shachaf> i guess "closed under whatever arbitrary operation/value you provide"
23:05:39 <Sgeo_> e.g. using dimap sets 'id to #f, using strong/etc. sets 'iso to #f
23:06:25 <Sgeo_> So effectively determining the 'type' of optic even though they're all functions in a dynamically typed language
23:07:59 <Sgeo_> Hmm, actually, dimap id id would fail to be id, hmm
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23:09:18 <Sgeo_> But still, it reveals what will and will not throw an exception
23:09:42 <Sgeo_> Even if dimap blah id id should be morally equivalent to blah, it isn't because blah might not be a profunctor
23:09:53 <Sgeo_> (Ok, so I'm changing order of arguments a bit)
23:16:51 <oerjan> oh hm filtered is in Control.Lens.Fold because that's the only use that's definitely safe
23:17:03 <oerjan> but it's defined such that it allows cheating
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23:32:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh inherently ambiguous is a technical term
23:32:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I tried to explain what it means
23:32:42 <oerjan> in that case i _really_ doubt any have been made
23:33:20 <b_jonas> I mean, there's so many esolangs, and this fact isn't something secret, it's in many other books about formal languages too, even if not formulated as a call for challenge
23:33:30 <oerjan> well it's a more advanced concept than most esolangs use, frankly
23:34:45 <oerjan> also i haven't read the wiki article yet, i need to catch up on the wiki later
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23:36:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: you don't have to read what I wrote on the wiki, I just said the same thing on this channel 70 minutes ago
23:36:59 <b_jonas> I think even a very simple construction might work,
23:37:52 <b_jonas> such as a brainfuck variant where if the program doesn't have balanced brackets then it's considered a brainfuck program with an alternate symbol set where <> are the loop delimiters and [] are the head move operators
23:38:56 <b_jonas> but it would be nicer if the language wasn't a brainfuck variant of course
23:41:08 <oerjan> hm i take it the language of unbalanced brackets isn't context-free then?
23:43:31 <b_jonas> the language of unbalanced brackets is context-free
23:43:32 <oerjan> hm actually i doubt that
23:43:50 <oerjan> because i recall defining a monoid of bracket matching state
23:44:09 <oerjan> in that case i doubt your language actually is inherently ambiguous
23:44:19 <b_jonas> the book proves that the complement of any language recognized by a deterministic push-down automaton can also be recognized by a deterministic push-down automaton, which proves it's context-free
23:44:48 <b_jonas> but the point here is that if the brackets are balanced, then the program is still valid, with the original brainfuck semantics
23:45:10 <oerjan> yes, but that doesn't mean it's intrinsically ambiguous
23:45:34 <b_jonas> so the set of valid programs is the language of strings with balanced brackets unioned with the language of strings with balanced angle brackets,
23:45:38 <oerjan> you might be able to separate the two legal sublanguages into disjoint context-free languages
23:46:12 <b_jonas> well, I'm not completely sure it's intrinsically ambiguous yet, so you might need a somewhat different construction, yes
23:47:05 <oerjan> hm well the latter is an intersection language, so not necessarily context-free
23:48:24 <oerjan> although that doesn't prove you cannot split in a different way
23:48:36 <oerjan> well you go ahead finding a proof :P
23:49:15 <b_jonas> that, but more importantly define a similar language that isn't a brainfuck derivative, because we don't need another brainfuck derivative
23:50:55 <Sgeo_> Is there something like at or ix (not sure which) that allows for a default if the key isn't found? I assume that's only safe if the user promises to treat "no value present" as "this value is the default" consistently
23:51:22 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: for what data structure?
23:51:39 <Sgeo_> Is the thing I most have in mind
23:52:07 <b_jonas> guessing yes, let me look it up
23:52:53 <oerjan> Sgeo_: you use those together with non
23:53:24 <lambdabot> (Profunctor p, Functor f, Eq a) => a -> p a (f a) -> p (Maybe a) (f (Maybe a))
23:53:49 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.6.3/html/libraries/containers-0.5.0.0/Data-Map-Lazy.html#v:findWithDefault
23:54:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: he's talking about lens
23:54:30 <b_jonas> oh, so that's why those names "ix" and "at" are so strange
23:54:46 <Sgeo_> But this always forcibly deletes the entry if you try to set to the value given to the non
23:54:48 <b_jonas> ("at" would make sense in C++)
23:55:02 <oerjan> Sgeo_: yes that's considered a feature?
23:56:00 <Sgeo_> I love simple :: Iso' a a.
23:56:34 <oerjan> that _is_ pretty simple
23:57:45 <Sgeo_> Is Equality' what I called 'id, or something else?