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00:00:21 <ais523> it would be great if you could write that as "if (((int x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL())) && x->foo)" because x isn't used elsewhere
00:00:23 <b_jonas> ais523: well yeah, nethack is written in ancient C originally, the kind where you had to declare all variables at the beginning of blocks, you couldn't even mix declaratios with statements without adding braces
00:00:31 <ais523> it would be great if you could write that as "if (((struct bar x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL())) && x->foo)" because x isn't used elsewhere
00:00:38 <zzo38> I know in BASIC it will automatically make a pointer to a constant or expression result if you pass such a thing to a subroutine with the parameter declared by references.
00:00:46 <elliott> ais523: if (({ struct bar x = blah(); x && x->foo })))
00:00:50 <ais523> int-e: it's a common C idiom to say "yes I meant to write = not == even though this looks like a conditional"
00:01:02 <ais523> most compilers understand it nowadays, and the code is still correct even in compilers that don't
00:01:13 <ais523> useful for humans reading the code, too
00:02:53 <ais523> many people reflex-correct if (x = y) to if (x == y); people are unlikely to make the same change to if ((x = y))
00:03:11 <int-e> ais523: hmm. ok. gcc usually seems to be happy with just one pair of parentheses.
00:03:23 <ais523> int-e: it varies between compiler
00:03:33 <Bicyclidine> i think with -Wall gcc suggests adding the parens, actually
00:03:36 <int-e> if ((x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL()) && x->foo)
00:03:40 <ais523> I prefer the double pair because it's more informative for humans
00:04:24 <int-e> (being satisfied with just a single pair of parentheses is a bit odd, admittedly, given the precedences of =, == and &&)
00:04:42 <ais523> elliott: so long as you don't use four
00:05:03 <ais523> Bicyclidine: Radixal!!!! begs to differ with you
00:05:14 <ais523> we put four exclamation marks in the name of that language just because it was the smallest number we couldn't otherwise justify
00:05:22 <Bicyclidine> radixal!!!! can fuck itself if it's not down with the four
00:05:43 <int-e> Bicyclidine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Four
00:06:47 <int-e> nice way of offending almost 20% of the world's population.
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00:34:34 <zzo38> A Forth-based compiler could have an intermediate code which is tha used in the Forth system, and using the executable intermediate code, once it is finished it analyze it to generate the target code.
00:40:00 <fizzie> ais523: If not "int x", certainly not "struct bar x" either; it's no more pointery or applicable to ->.
00:40:33 <ais523> this is what happens when you try to write examples without an actual program in mind and without a typechecker to help you
00:43:16 <fizzie> Fun fact: compound literals are lvalues, so you can write (int){ 1 } = 2; -- not that it's particularly useful.
00:44:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: can you clarify what language dialect you mean for that?
00:44:39 <fizzie> C11 at least, but I assume it hasn't changed from C99.
00:45:12 <ais523> fizzie: they're lvalues so you can take pointers to them, presumably
00:45:48 <ais523> fizzie: I assume (int){ 1 } = 2 is legal but has no visible effect? and (volatile int){ 1 } = 2 is forced to write a 2 to a memory location that previously contained a 1, but has no other effect?
00:48:33 <fizzie> Another intersting tidbit is that compound literals qualified with const are explicitly allowed to not be distinct.
00:48:50 <Bike> isn't that the whole point of const
00:48:53 * ais523 compiles "int main(void) { (volatile int){1} = 2; return 0; }"
00:48:59 <Bike> well. part of it
00:49:00 <ais523> it does indeed pick a memory address, and write 1 and 2 to it
00:49:03 <ais523> let me try with optimization
00:49:15 <ais523> huh, it optimized it out entirely
00:49:41 <b_jonas> ais523: try with a real variable?
00:49:51 <b_jonas> ais523: and are you compiling as C or as C++?
00:50:12 <b_jonas> oh yeah, has to be C, that partiular thing you wrote is probably a syntax error in C++
00:50:28 <ais523> b_jonas: with a real variable, it does indeed assign 1 and 2 to a memory address on the stack
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00:52:05 <Bike> why would it be a bug? you can't do anything with the literal
00:53:33 <ais523> Bike: "volatile" means that you have to do all the actual reads and writes to the memory address at some point
00:54:26 <fizzie> ais523: "What constitutes an access to a volatile-qualified object is implementation-specific," so there's an universal cop-out of everything.
00:54:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure I believe it means that anymore
00:54:49 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that might have been what it originally meant, used for hardware stuff,
00:54:50 <ais523> fizzie: right, yes, but I think it's actually defined by gcc
00:55:45 <b_jonas> but I think these days volatile just means the effect has to be visible from a signal handler or backwards
00:56:13 <ais523> hmm, gcc's description is mostly talking about volatile objects not being memory barriers with respect to non-volatile objects
00:56:19 <b_jonas> so it might inhibit some optimizatios, it probably doesn't inhibit all
00:56:35 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it sort of has to do barrier stuff for the signal handle semantics
00:57:05 <ais523> gcc is defining its concept of volatile accesses in terms of what it counts as an access in the C code
00:57:08 <ais523> not the effect on the underlying memory
00:57:57 <b_jonas> meh, it's complicated. I don't pretend to really understand all of this
00:58:30 <fizzie> At any rate, you can prove equal things about the compound literal as you could about a named "volatile int i", so arguably the behavior should be identical too.
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01:01:26 <ais523> fwiw, clang does store a 1 and a 2 into memory for that program
01:01:49 <b_jonas> ais523: obviously it's allowed to do that
01:02:22 <fizzie> b_jonas: Reasonably sure. Why would the named object be any different?
01:02:23 <ais523> but I mean, it doesn't optimize it out
01:03:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, I'm not really sure about how C99 compound literals work
01:03:17 <b_jonas> can you take their address?
01:03:58 <ais523> that's the main reason to use them
01:03:58 <fizzie> They work almost exactly as if you had a named object (with some arbitrary name) declared in the smallest enclosing scope.
01:04:17 <ais523> whereas they work differently in C++, because destructors and rvalue references screw everything up
01:04:19 <fizzie> There might be something related to where the initializer gets evaluated that you couldn't accomplish with a named object.
01:04:36 <ais523> gcc's documentation has an outright note warning people not to create anonymous arrays in C++
01:04:40 <ais523> because it nearly always doesn't do what you expect
01:07:14 <fizzie> It's perhaps a slight shame they didn't provide for a way to declare compound literals with static storage inside functions.
01:07:49 <fizzie> As it is, you can't do something like return (const int[]){ 1, 2, 3, 0 }; from a function returning const int *.
01:08:09 <b_jonas> can't you just declare a named variable for that?
01:08:33 <fizzie> Sure, but that's as applicable to compound literals in general.
01:08:40 <ais523> it should declare storage into the scope that called the function
01:09:05 <ais523> (if alloca can do that, why can't I?)
01:10:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: is this too evil? (const int *)"\1\0\0\0\2\0\0\0\3\0\0\0\0\0\0"
01:10:41 <ais523> b_jonas: that won't work on many systems
01:10:42 <Bike> main is usually a function
01:10:58 <ais523> although, I /love/ the way you use the implicit \0 at the end of the string as part of an integer
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01:12:15 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you want to make it more portable, add some ?: dispatching on endianness and sizeof, pushing all unhandled cases to abort
01:13:01 <b_jonas> the problem is not just endianness and size, right? it's alignment
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01:13:19 <b_jonas> there's no way you can force the string literal to be aligned to more than a char
01:13:26 <ais523> although in the particular case of (1, 2, 3)…
01:13:38 <ais523> b_jonas: sure there is
01:13:55 <ais523> you can fit four or more copies of the array into one string, at different alignments
01:14:18 <ais523> at runtime, you can check the value of the actual pointer, run alignof to figure out what alignment you need, then pick an appropriate copy
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01:14:29 <pikhq> Also the fact that C does not actually place any restrictions on the actual representation of an int.
01:14:30 <fizzie> ais523: You can't (reasonably) do arithmetic related to absolute addresses, however.
01:14:56 <ais523> fizzie: you can cast to intptr_t; if the type exists, then that cast is normally likely to be sane
01:15:07 <fizzie> ais523: "likely", but not required.
01:15:08 <ais523> pikhq: it does, it requires it to be a whole number of bits
01:15:14 <ais523> which is more than some esolangs manage
01:15:21 <pikhq> Okay, right, it does do that.
01:15:34 <fizzie> It also requires it to have at most one sign bit.
01:15:35 <pikhq> It has some limitations, but very minimal ones.
01:15:46 <fizzie> Actually, exactly one, if it's signed.
01:15:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Not really. It doesn't require signedness to be implemented that way. :)
01:16:10 <Bike> can you have data be represented in different ways at different times? for example, have the data in a register variable look different from that in memory, as long as it converts for you
01:16:13 <ais523> doesn't C99 require it to be two's-complement, one's-complement, or sign-magnitude?
01:16:17 <ais523> that's quite a strong requirement
01:16:23 <Bike> b_jonas: the channel does t his every week anyway
01:16:25 <pikhq> C99 requires arithmetic to behave as such.
01:16:27 <ais523> however, I don't think it requires all the bits to be used
01:16:33 <pikhq> It does not require the *representation* to map to that.
01:16:36 <b_jonas> it's #esoteric so it's no sin
01:16:41 <fizzie> pikhq: "For signed integer types, the bits of the object representation shall be divided into three groups: value bits, padding bits, and the sign bit."
01:16:54 <Bike> SPEAKING OF WHICH, LET US DISCUSS THE ACCURACY OF FLOATING POINT IRRATIONAL FUNCTIONS
01:17:05 <ais523> Bike: there's a great quote about that, let me find it
01:17:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, yes, I know, that's why I'm saying you need conditionals to check the representation on abi-dependent ways, and abort in all cases you can't handle
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01:17:39 <ais523> The trigonometric functions (5200), (5210), and (5220) will return erroneous results when given very large arguments. At magnitudes around 8 million or so, the result is occasionally off by one bit. The errors get progressively worse, so that with magnitudes in the neighborhood of the quintillions and higher, the number is wholly inaccurate. However, at magnitudes around 8 million, there is already a difference of over 20pi between consecutive
01:17:41 <ais523> floating-point numbers, so it is hard to conceive of a purpose for which improved accuracy would be useful.
01:18:49 <pikhq> ais523: Where's that quote from?
01:18:52 <ais523> (technically that paragraph's GPL, so I'd better attribute it: https://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/source/56c660c5eb21938faea7c3550713c1e0b395e5b9:pit/lib/floatlib.doc)
01:19:11 <ais523> took me a while to find an online link, linking to my hard drive wouldn't help so much
01:19:42 <Bike> what's IEEE require again
01:19:46 <pikhq> Hrm, wait, no, I don't think IEEE says much on the trig functions.
01:19:47 <ais523> it's in vaguely IEEE format, but doesn't have infinities or denormalized numbers
01:20:01 <ais523> apparently there was a /huge/ row about denormalized numbers back when they were invented
01:20:09 <pikhq> Bike: Error within 1 ULP on those.
01:20:45 <fizzie> ais523: Around 8 million, difference over 20pi between consecutive floats? These are some really sucky floats.
01:20:48 <pikhq> On some of the primitives (basic arithmetic, basically) it requires exact results, rounded.
01:20:48 <fizzie> [04:20:00] <fizzie> ,cc double d = 8000000, e = nextafter(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e - d);
01:20:51 <fizzie> [04:20:01] <candide> fizzie: 0.0000000009
01:20:54 <fizzie> [04:20:03] <fizzie> ,cc float d = 8000000, e = nextafter(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e - d);
01:20:57 <Bike> ais523: have you seen kahan's papers, they're hilariously ranty
01:20:57 <fizzie> [04:20:05] <candide> fizzie: 0.5000000000
01:20:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Single precision?
01:20:59 <b_jonas> ais523: there still is. it's not settled.
01:21:11 <fizzie> pikhq: That's still just 0.5 for IEEE 32-bit binary.
01:21:33 <ais523> the "million" may well be a typo, come to think of it
01:21:58 <fizzie> (Huh, that should've been nextafterf. I wonder how it worked.)
01:22:10 <ais523> !c float d = 8000000000.f, e = nextafterf(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e-d);
01:22:14 <ais523> fizzie: is nextafter in tgmath?
01:22:21 <ais523> that's one way it theoretically could work
01:22:46 <fizzie> I think so, but I don't think it's in the standard includes.
01:23:02 <fizzie> Perhaps it is. It's C11 by default, at least.
01:23:30 <fizzie> Yeah, it includes both <math.h> and <tgmath.h>.
01:23:55 <ais523> also, fun fact about IEEE representation: not counting the boundary conditions, nextafter(f, INFINITY) = *(float *)&(int){ *(int *)&f + 1 }
01:24:13 <ais523> for any int and float with the same size as each other
01:24:39 <fizzie> And the same endianness.
01:25:09 <ais523> a platform with different endianness on int and float would be insane, but IIRC they exist
01:25:36 <b_jonas> yes, it seems the C++ standard has nextafter, so it would use the float version in C++ too
01:25:36 <fizzie> I can't give an example offhand, but I think there were some.
01:26:04 <fizzie> If it's completely softfloat, the choice is quite arbitrary, that might be one way to get there.
01:26:30 <fizzie> Well, maybe not entirely arbitrary, I'm sure it's easier if you don't need to byteswap after extracting the components.
01:26:32 <ais523> no wonder it ignored the !c
01:26:46 <ais523> b_jonas: wouldn't you need a std::?
01:27:18 <ais523> now my brain's saying "platform with different byte size between int and float"
01:27:22 <ais523> but I'm pretty sure C doesn't allow that
01:27:46 <b_jonas> ais523: normally yes, but maybe not if you #include <math.h>, and definitely not in some of the irc bots
01:28:06 <fizzie> ais523: You could "emulate" it by adding suitable padding bits, however.
01:28:20 <ais523> b_jonas: if you do a C-style #include in C++ (i.e. #include <math.h> not #include <cmath>), you get all the symbols in it imported
01:28:33 <ais523> presumably for C and old-C++ compatibility
01:30:25 <fizzie> Though I think even padding bits are not allowed to change if you access the object representation via char * (and don't do anything to the object between), so you couldn't just not store them for objects of type int.
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01:31:10 <pikhq> ais523: Old ARM ABI had different endianness for double and long long, if that counts. :)
01:31:33 <ais523> pikhq: was one of them middle-endian?
01:31:52 <ais523> I guess they'd have to be, or else float and int would also have to be different (I'm pretty sure ARM doesn't have 32-bit chars)
01:32:08 <ais523> b_jonas: middle-endian is when the byte order is something like 2143 rather than 1234 or 4321
01:32:14 <pikhq> Not quite. But it was damned friggin' weird.
01:32:28 <pikhq> The byte order IIRC was something like 43218765
01:32:54 <ais523> that's middle-endian too
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01:33:15 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I thoguht that's called mixed endian
01:33:45 <fizzie> Wikipedia recognizes "mixed-endian" as synonym for "middle-endian".
01:34:35 <fizzie> If you have a bi-endian chip with a hardware floating point, does the endianness toggle generally affect floats too?
01:36:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: you'll have to ask the particular hardware.
01:36:57 <pikhq> I dunno about "in general", but I'm quite certain it does on PowerPC.
01:37:13 <pikhq> The endian toggle was done on the data bus there.
01:39:30 <pikhq> It didn't work well. :)
01:40:15 <pikhq> Ah, sorry, misremembered.
01:41:27 <pikhq> It did a xor on the address's three lower bits, which required the motherboard to *also* do a byte swap when talking to hardware.
01:42:05 <pikhq> That's... flipping weird.
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01:50:05 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
01:52:06 <ais523> coppro: those pages keep getting created and deleted
01:52:44 <ais523> that one seems to have survived three AfDs
01:54:04 <ais523> On a totally random note, should not the article be a member of itself? It doesn't distinguish that it must be a list of lists of non-lists. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 00:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
01:55:28 <coppro> I'm very tempted to put a "See also" link on "Russel's Paradox" to the edit where that comment was added
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01:56:59 <ais523> ooh, srlink still exists
01:57:19 <ais523> for some reason I'm unexpectedly happy about discovering that the bits of Wikipedia's architecture I'm responsible for still exist
01:58:25 <coppro> I know that feeling :)
01:58:27 <b_jonas> ais523: can't you work that around by saying something like [[w:List of Lists of Lists|List of Lists of Lists]] or possibly some more complicated interwiki link?
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01:59:05 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not a technical restriction; I invented srlink to solve the technical problems
01:59:15 <ais523> it's a policy restriction
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01:59:25 <ais523> "stuff that happens on Wikipedia" is not normally what an article is about
01:59:45 <coppro> b_jonas: The goal is that if you link "Wikipedia" from an article about Wikipedia, it should go to Wikipedia, even on a mirror
01:59:57 <b_jonas> ais523: but isn't List of Lists of Lists already mostly about lists in wikipedia?
02:00:20 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a navigation page
02:00:29 <ais523> basically you have to imagine a Wikipedia fork
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02:00:38 <ais523> should the reference go to "this site", or "Wikipedia"
02:00:43 <ais523> if it's the latter, you use {{srlink}}
02:01:11 <b_jonas> ok, whatever, it's way too late I should go to bed
02:01:33 <ais523> huh, looks like my AfD system is still in place, too; quite surprising for something so major
02:01:40 <ais523> or at least, I didn't design what the system does, just implemented it
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02:03:26 <ais523> incidentally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:AfD_debates_%28Indiscernible_or_unclassifiable_topic%29 is often hilarious reading, although it's not so great right now
02:04:37 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what WT:RFA is like nowadays
02:04:53 <ais523> AFAICT that page has just had one discussion, which has probably lasted over a decade by now
02:19:19 * Sgeo_ is still sad that BJAODN is gone
02:19:35 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Best_of_BJAODN
02:22:55 <Sgeo_> Why is this still part of Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_on_mars.jpg
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02:24:55 <ais523> "This is a collection of the best jokes and nonsense from Wikipedia:Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense. The criterion for a joke getting on this page is simple: at least one Wikipedian found it funny."
02:25:29 <coppro> Sgeo_: Because *any* community will eventually develop its own injokes and humour
02:25:41 <coppro> Wikipedia just shoves them off to the WP: namespace where they won't hurt anyone
02:26:12 <ais523> it's shocking how many things were moved to BJAODN with /nobody at all/ being amused by them
02:26:18 <ais523> just because people thought that's where they belonged
02:26:48 <Sgeo_> http://creatures.wiki/Emu
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02:28:39 <coppro> oh god, .wiki is a thing
02:28:50 <coppro> the Two Wiki rule will need updating
02:29:18 <ais523> every subject has exactly two wikis, one on a major site like Wikia, one independent
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02:30:48 <ais523> shachaf: the Two Wiki rule can be explained by people forking the Wikia wiki once it gets at all popular
02:31:08 <shachaf> google still finds nethack.wikia.com results and it's very irritating
02:31:19 <shachaf> i delete two characters to get to the good wiki. this is probably a common experience
02:31:19 <Sgeo_> People still update nethack.wikia.com
02:31:48 <Sgeo_> And yeah, Creatures wiki forked away recently
02:31:58 <boily__> quintopia: quinthellopia. will quinthelloïfy you again tomorrow. I need sleep. goodnight!
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02:49:09 <zzo38> I have a copy of the Water on Mars picture anyways, so even if it is deleted, I have a copy
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02:56:11 <zzo38> If endianness of CPU can be selected at runtime then it could probably be useful for making a bi-endian Z-machine implementation. Doing this probably is not particularly useful though; no existing story file is small-endian, no existing interpreter is small-endian, no existing compiler is small-endian, and this feature was removed since EZIP.
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02:57:16 <pikhq> ... bi-endian Z-machine?
02:58:30 <zzo38> Z-machine is normally only big-endian. However, ZIP (but not EZIP and newer) has a header bit to specify small-endian. This was never used, and as far as I know Aimfiz (my own implementation) is the only implementation that even checks this (although it will display an error message if it is found to be small-endian).
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03:24:39 <FreeFull> The existence of the Finnish language
03:38:14 <FreeFull> I'm getting pretty good at locating minibrots
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04:35:05 <Sgeo_> Is there an informal way to translate from van Laarhoven lenses to pure profunctor lenses, conceptually? I think I understand van Laarhoven optics a bit better
04:36:30 <shachaf> If only pure profunctor lenses had gotten named after me...
04:39:59 <coppro> it's kind of funny hearing about things named after twan
04:40:11 <coppro> since I know him from an entirely different context
04:40:47 <oerjan> shachaf: then they would've been kicking ass
04:41:18 <shachaf> am i missing the oerjanpun here
04:41:50 <oerjan> try reading it aloud, perhaps in an outrageous accent.
04:50:34 <coppro> does anyone know what a papentnesis is?
04:50:53 <coppro> I found the word in a chinglish instruction set and have not been able to decode it
04:51:11 <Bike> ...a parenthesis?
04:51:19 <Bike> could be an OCR error
04:51:55 <coppro> that makes no sense in context
04:52:25 <coppro> I'll have to double-check it again, maybe it does
04:54:05 <coppro> iirc it was in the same sentence as "is the romanized", so maybe it was trying to explain the use of roman/chinese characters with one in parentheses
05:11:03 <Sgeo_> If I can learn COBOL, or at least vaguely understand it, why shouldn't I do the same with MUMPS?
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05:24:24 <oerjan> coppro: was this in an advertisement for pectopahs?
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06:05:10 <Sgeo_> Is nethack4 reasonably playable on server?
06:05:21 <Sgeo_> And do I need to be scared of bugs?
06:07:05 <shachaf> The grid bug bites! You get zapped!
06:10:50 <Sgeo_> I have to (S)ave to stop viewing a game?
06:44:09 <scarf> Sgeo_: it's reasonably playable, there are still potentially some bad bugs but nothing's likely to ruin your game
06:44:16 <scarf> and yes, you press S to stop interacting with a game
06:45:32 <scarf> btw, we have a policy of rewinding a save file if you die due to a bug, but haven't had to use it for ages
06:45:36 <scarf> bug in the code, that is
06:48:45 <scarf> the watch interface could do with improvement
06:49:00 <scarf> the basic problem with how things work at the moment, is that the game saves continuously, so S actually quits
06:49:29 <scarf> and so it naturally ended up quitting the other followmodes (watch, replay) too, and there was no need to reimplement separate code for quitting those
06:49:55 <scarf> (I mean, S is implemented as breaking the connection to the game, because the game saves continuously and so there's no need for a separate saving step)
06:54:00 <Sgeo_> No bugs likely to ruin the server if I idle either, right?
06:54:39 <Sgeo_> Also, are all these games I see just save files idling, or is someone actively playing?
06:54:45 <scarf> no; the server process will close after 10 minutes or so, assuming you're playing 4.3, not sure what'll happen to the client process but it shouldn't ruin the client or game either way
06:54:45 <Sgeo_> Because I tried a few with no action going on
06:54:59 <scarf> and the server can't distinguish idling from playing; however, they're sorted by last-modified date
06:55:12 <scarf> also it can't distinguish them from game's nobody's playing
06:55:17 <scarf> it's likely there's no action right now
06:56:25 <scarf> there was someone active about 35 minutes before you joined, but nobody but you's active right now
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08:26:53 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a text editor that's good to use over a slow ssh connection?
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08:27:52 <Taneb> I think "good to use over a slow ssh connection" implies "good to use"
08:29:00 <ion> shachaf: I can say yes from experience. I have easier time predicting the lagged state in it than other editors.
08:29:37 <shachaf> how do you feel about chu spaces today
08:29:55 <ion> Trains are nice, i guess.
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08:30:12 <shachaf> if you like trains #trains is the channel for you
08:31:03 <ion> How about if i like #trains?
08:31:24 <fizzie> I wonder if running something under screen can optimize updates for slow links. I have this feeling it anecdotally helped with a 19.2kbps physical terminal.
08:31:58 <ion> taneb: Also, use mosh.
08:32:01 <shachaf> fizzie: did you see my cyrillic above
08:32:10 <shachaf> it didn't actually make sense but i thought of you
08:34:15 <fizzie> Have to say I didn't notice that the р wasn't a p.
08:34:52 <shachaf> that's the sort of thing you usually notice
08:35:10 <Taneb> ion, the connection is stable and I doubt mosh improves ping time
08:35:41 <fizzie> Taneb: Intelligent local echo, man!
08:36:16 <shachaf> Intelligent Local Echo Man would be a good name for a superhero
08:37:15 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes, well, I just assumed it's all mixed up anyway, due to the s's and such. (Though apparently there's ѕ, the Cyrillic small letter dze, in Macedonian.)
08:37:25 <fizzie> ꙃ is a v. fancy letter.
08:37:46 <fizzie> It's the "dzelo" from Cyrillic Extended-B.
08:37:54 <shachaf> CYRILLIC FANCY LETTER DZELO
08:39:48 <shachaf> It's annoying that less escapes it.
08:40:00 <shachaf> Even less -R -f # is there an option to have less not escape it?
08:40:26 <shachaf> But -r doesn't escape anything, not even the \a
08:41:57 <shachaf> Oh well, I'll try it for a while.
08:44:58 <fizzie> shachaf: "LESSUTFBINFMT=*n%lc less ..." hth
08:45:26 <fizzie> Perhaps quote the * if you have a habit of having a lot of files ending in n%lc.
08:46:08 <fizzie> Also only if your C library's wint_t matches with Unicode, I guess.
08:46:32 <fizzie> And the multibyteness might confuse less' idea of line width, for all I know.
08:47:00 <shachaf> my file is made up of lines like "004D LATIN CAPITAL LETTER M [M]"
08:47:58 <shachaf> I should probably add more information, since Unicode provides so much more.
08:48:34 <fizzie> I just keep a copy of UnicodeData.txt, though the fields aren't exactly obvious to remember, and it's missing the preview.
08:48:58 <shachaf> My file is UnicodeData.txt processed by a 5-line script.
08:49:04 <shachaf> But I should extract more information.
08:49:18 <shachaf> The format is based on a much older Perl script I used to use.
08:49:52 <shachaf> How does this *n%lc thing work?
08:51:31 <fizzie> *n is just "use normal formatting", and the rest is a printf string that it "applies to Unicode code points that were successfully decoded but are unsuitable for display".
08:51:45 <shachaf> But why doesn't it do it for ^A?
08:51:56 <shachaf> I guess it's already suitable for display as ^A?
08:52:17 <fizzie> There's BINFMT for "regular" control/binary characters, I think that has precedence.
08:52:44 <fizzie> Also the defaults are different, <%02X> vs. <U+%04lX>.
08:53:28 <fizzie> Convincing less that CYRILLIC FANCY LETTER DZELO is not "unsuitable for display" would be a better solution.
08:53:28 <shachaf> NamesList.txt has a lot of useful information.
08:53:41 <shachaf> But if I put that in my file it would probably be way too big.
08:54:03 <shachaf> whoa, NamesList.txt is so great
08:55:31 <shachaf> Maybe I should just use that.
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08:55:59 <shachaf> your task is to invent the best file to use for unicode activities
08:56:43 <shachaf> improving on the ui of less is difficult
09:07:01 <fizzie> I've used gucharmap occasionally for "Unicode activities" (nice euphemism).
09:07:13 <fizzie> It has a nice "character details" tab.
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09:20:14 <shachaf> i kind of wish there was a standard glyph for every byte from 0 to 255
09:24:41 <Sgeo_> What Traversals cannot be turned into streams?
09:27:40 <Sgeo_> Actually, to Haskellers, I guess Stream implies being infinite. What traversables cannot be turned into lists?
09:28:32 <shachaf> I know you're aware of toListOf (and probably toList) because you talked about it earlier.
09:30:11 <Sgeo_> I'm trying to ascertain if in fact having (SomeClass p, Profunctor p) => p a b -> p (Stream a) (Stream b) is sufficient.
09:30:26 <Sgeo_> (Where Stream means Racket stream, not Haskell Stream)
09:31:58 <Sgeo_> I guess I also need to be able to go from that list to the same traversable...
09:32:30 <Sgeo_> Well, that list containing modifications + the original
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09:36:58 <Sgeo_> I guess that's the core of the problem with just using a list?
09:37:54 <Sgeo_> Seems so much easier to think about these things when I think in terms of 'primitive' things, like Profunctor p, Strength p => p a b -> p (a, o) (b, o) being the primitive lens.
09:38:40 <shachaf> I already mentioned class Travy p where trav :: Traversable f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)
09:40:08 <Sgeo_> As far as I'm aware, Racket does not natively have Traversable, and I'm having a bit of difficulty visualizing how to bring them in
09:40:28 <Sgeo_> I think because I tend to think of Applicative as 'side-effect'
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10:22:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40372&oldid=40365 * GermanyBoy * (+175) /* Method reference */ environment
10:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40373&oldid=40372 * GermanyBoy * (+107) /* Command reference */ nested string
10:24:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40374&oldid=40373 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* Command reference */
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10:41:00 <DootBot> quintopia: lotid, the could R! !befunge98 DOOT DOOT! found with Black! lol pressed about Dootbot aom's are?
10:42:35 <fizzie> fungot: Say something clever to offset that.
10:42:36 <fungot> fizzie: later tell arcfide or: there's an siqm too? i just found it through the piecewise function?
10:42:44 <fizzie> fungot: ...that was disappointing.
10:42:50 <fungot> fizzie: i invite you to write it would be stupid. :p how so? ( if f f). then our asses are out raped.
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11:00:02 <FireFly> fungot: watch your language
11:00:03 <fungot> FireFly: something like that. although i omitted to mention plt, i don't
11:00:12 <fizzie> I don't think unsolicited auto-HELLOes are very appropriate.
11:01:08 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you agree that bots should not speak unless spoken to?
11:01:08 <fungot> fizzie: i still don't really see the advantage of interpreting machine-generated s-expressions instead of machine-generated bytecode is :) i haven't needed for over half a semitone. like
11:05:39 <J_Arcane> The chanserv already generates a greeting to the #esoteric channel.
11:07:59 <fizzie> I feel a bit iffy about the chanserv greeting too, but I suppose it can be useful, and at least it doesn't clutter the channel, since it's directly to the joining user.
11:08:24 <fizzie> (Please don't take this as a recommendation to make the bot do HELLO in a private message.)
11:10:17 <fizzie> Plus a public HELLO also transforms a low-importance event (a join) into a normal-importance one (new messages), causing the channel to show up in status bar activity things and the like.
11:13:51 <HackEgo> 398) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur. \ 461) <Phantom_Hoover> I gave her the Noblesse Oblige room
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11:41:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40375&oldid=40374 * GermanyBoy * (+156) /* Method reference */
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11:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40376&oldid=40375 * GermanyBoy * (+308) /* Example code/Custom variable manipulation command */ new section
12:00:15 <impomatic_> BF Joust inspired game - http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/36645/brainfedbotsforbattling-a-brainf-tournament
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12:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40377&oldid=40376 * GermanyBoy * (+57) /* See also */ new section
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12:26:28 <Taneb> `quote in my prose
12:26:29 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
12:29:14 <Taneb> I love that Unicode specifies 4 invisible maths operators
12:29:32 <Taneb> Proposal for U+2061 to be in Haskell prelude as a synonym for $
12:30:42 <tswett> Clearly it should bind much more tightly.
12:30:57 <tswett> In fact, it should bind even more tightly than the juxtaposition operator.
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12:33:30 <fizzie> Why doesn't FUNCTION APPLICATION have the word INVISIBLE in it?
12:34:43 <tswett> Because if FUNCTION APPLICATION did have the word INVISIBLE in it, there would be an index such that the nine-character substring of FUNCTION APPLICATION at that index is INVISIBLE.
12:34:47 <tswett> However, there is no such index.
12:38:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40378&oldid=40377 * GermanyBoy * (+988) /* Examples/Infix expression parser */ new section
12:44:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40379&oldid=40378 * GermanyBoy * (-10) /* Infix expression parser */ made it shorter
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12:46:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@5ED55308.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl.
12:47:08 <fizzie> Though I was intending to do a nick-based thing. Never trust ChanServ, I guess.
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12:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> it's clearly not doing it for everyone, i wonder what triggers it
12:48:00 <fizzie> I don't think there were any other /parts.
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12:48:42 <Taneb> What use is a BYE?
12:49:01 <tswett> The bot should send the message immediately *before* the person leaves.
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12:51:28 <b_jonas> actually, it should send the message "YOU'RE THE WEAKEST LINK. GOODBYE!" and kick the person immediately before the person leaves.
12:51:58 <tswett> Unfortunately, IRC lacks an MTG stack.
12:52:24 <TieSoul> I don't think I can do that
12:52:44 <b_jonas> tswett: I think it does have one, but only the server has access to instants
12:52:59 <tswett> MTG stack, n. A stack containing attempted actions, such that once an action is attempted, it goes onto the stack and others may attempt further actions while the action is still on the stack.
12:53:21 <tswett> An action is carried out when it leaves the stack.
12:53:56 <b_jonas> to be more precise, only the local server can cast commands as a reaction, not clients or remote servers
12:55:05 <tswett> I'm reminded of the E programming language.
12:55:50 <tswett> Execution consists of a series of "game turns". Each game turn consists of taking an action from the job queue and executing it, possibly thereby adding more actions to the job queue.
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12:57:54 <boily> tswett: isn't that suspiciously similar to a plain old push-down?
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12:58:29 <tswett> Execution within a job is LIFO, but the order among jobs is FIFO.
12:58:37 <b_jonas> should we call it MTG 6E stack just like how I call the (int volatile){1} from yesterday a C99 compound literal?
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13:00:25 <boily> tswett: the that that refered to the fact that a task may push additional tasks onto the execution stack.
13:00:43 <boily> fungot: what is a compound literal?
13:00:43 <fungot> boily: the cps make it non-c?
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13:00:57 <tswett> boily: but the job queue is a queue, not a stack.
13:01:22 <boily> oh hm. well. uhm. then... uuuuuh...
13:01:23 <tswett> Actually it's a partially ordered queue that happens to be implemented as a queue.
13:02:34 <boily> as a certain norwegian would say, “okay”.
13:02:48 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia! I am (somewhat) awake today.
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13:06:44 <fungot> b_jonas: cf. f. n ( fnord
13:07:08 <Taneb> fungot, do you watch Countdown?
13:07:09 <fungot> Taneb: it doesn't say anything explicitly ( only for *very* large projects like gimp or gtk+ and they simply start to split up fnord :) you already call two internal lambdas, just make it
13:07:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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13:22:05 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
13:22:06 <fizzie> fungot: So how about that weather we've been having?
13:22:06 <fungot> fizzie: good lord where does it end you know where all the action is a really big airport like really early laughter
13:22:23 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, tell me about it.
13:22:24 <fungot> fizzie: i think that um noise i like to travel um
13:22:28 <fungot> tswett: drive the way they tested because they have um lipsmack
13:22:35 <fungot> tswett: ( ( noise yeah)) the one that's gone from home the oldest is three
13:22:51 <fizzie> I really should've filtered out the annotations.
13:23:21 <b_jonas> fungot: did you mean lipstack or lipstick?
13:23:21 <fungot> b_jonas: oh i see i used to play ball and or whatever ride bikes and and get their energy up and it's been quite some time ago i paid thirty dollars and i was
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13:23:28 <fizzie> fungot: What do they do with all their lipsmack?
13:23:28 <fungot> fizzie: well that's good yeah ' cause then my cats were like last week was it was kind of like before people um you know she just
13:23:31 <tswett> What are c64, ct, ic, iwcs, pa, and ss?
13:23:57 <fizzie> tswett: A Commodore 64 programming guide, Chrono Trigger script, INTERCAL manual, Irregular Webcomic strips, Penny Arcade strips and Shakespeare's writings.
13:24:33 <tswett> "agora" is from the rules, not the archives, right?
13:24:41 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
13:24:48 <fungot> tswett: choice shall be its vizier. the announcing gambler's hand is identical to another, shall receive a salary equal to
13:24:55 <fungot> tswett: an asset from an entity is zero or more kudo transfers; " use") penalties or actions that would otherwise be required by the proposer of that
13:25:01 <fizzie> Someone just gave me a link, I think.
13:25:08 <tswett> fungot: I Agoran consent.
13:25:08 <fungot> tswett: sentencing, which shall then select, by notifying the assessor whenever e is attempting to
13:25:23 <fizzie> I don't think I managed to un-linebreak it properly, so it's kind of abrupt.
13:25:50 <fizzie> Or is it line-unbreak.
13:26:29 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
13:26:30 <fungot> fizzie: meet u al d xerox nw..nw lunch for me x
13:26:42 <fungot> tswett: was in science faculty, what u need ar your respective parts? should i go now. can i return me dollarscash lor...or can ask sis say can wat show...
13:27:10 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you be giving away all my dollarscash.
13:27:10 <fungot> fizzie: do u have any to give me a duty.?
13:27:19 <fizzie> fungot: Your duty is to serve #esoteric.
13:27:20 <fungot> fizzie: u didnt giv..atlast min wat can i do.
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14:07:21 <Jafet> I wonder how they got a corpus of SMS messages.
14:07:42 <Jafet> Through donations, apparently.
14:10:25 <fizzie> Yes, it's well-documented.
14:10:32 <fizzie> There's some quite personal stuff in there, IIRC.
14:14:36 <Jafet> Sounds like a representative corpus
14:14:44 <b_jonas> is dollarscash like a coins?
14:15:36 <Melvar> @tell shachaf < shachaf> i kind of wish there was a standard glyph for every byte from 0 to 255 – Perhaps the Control Pictures block starting at U+2400 helps?
14:16:03 <b_jonas> Melvar: I just use the pictures from cp437
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14:16:33 <HackEgo> regxcoin interticoin autocoin raincoin aackvmcoin drainmenticoin uftercoin godlcoin verglycumcoin ()coin vowelcoin aultlcoin modyngcoin stropologcoin filmeiocoin cancoin mabadcoin whocoin ccxxvicoin eassusquash-01coin
14:16:34 <b_jonas> in fact, I have those pictures in the control and high control characters of my bitmap font
14:16:40 <Jafet> Knowing shachaf, he wants visible glyphs for formfeeds as well
14:16:51 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, cp437 has one for that too
14:17:01 <fizzie> It doesn't have a visible glyph for space.
14:17:24 <fizzie> (I don't know if one was desired.)
14:17:30 <b_jonas> Jafet: basically, cp437 was not mainly intended as a text encoding, but as a hardwired encoding for the characters in the video card text mode
14:17:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it has three identical space characters (0x00, 0x20, 0xff)
14:17:54 <Jafet> I mostly know it as the df2 default font.
14:17:56 <b_jonas> but apart from that it's all different glyphs
14:18:00 <Taneb> I have written most of a program that does the letters round from Countdown! (a british game show)
14:19:27 <b_jonas> in my font, for some of the low control characters, I have characters from a different strange character set, not from cp437
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14:19:51 <b_jonas> but half of the low control chars and all of the high control ones do have the cp437 pics
14:20:56 <Taneb> In which one contestant asks for a vowel or a consonant until 9 letters have been chosen, then both try to make as long a word as possible out of them
14:21:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: so what's the performance of the program? does it get a six letter word 50% of time?
14:22:09 <Taneb> I do not know, I have not tested it that rigourously
14:22:20 <Taneb> It seems to get a six letter word > 50% of the time
14:22:31 <b_jonas> can you get duplicate letters?
14:22:57 <Taneb> It's roughly the letter frequencies in standard english (UK) usage
14:22:58 <b_jonas> and what's the distribution of letters? do you get T and R more often than Q and Z?
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14:23:17 <b_jonas> you replied before I asked the question
14:23:26 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show)#Letters_round
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14:24:06 <b_jonas> shouldn't it draw from scrabble tiles, without repetition?
14:24:31 <Taneb> It can get duplicate letters, not duplicate tiles
14:25:19 <b_jonas> so, like scrabble, it has fewer S because that makes the game more boring because plurals?
14:26:16 <Taneb> This program takes the role of the contestant
14:27:45 <Taneb> b_jonas, can you suggest 9 letters for me to test it?
14:29:27 <b_jonas> (This one is from Boggle which has too many annoying F)
14:31:03 <Taneb> That's the best (6 letters)
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14:31:20 <Taneb> My program also gives "hettie", which suggests I need a better corpus
14:32:11 <Taneb> I think it's a name
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14:34:29 <fizzie> `run words 9 | perl -ne 'chomp; print uc(substr($_, int(rand(length($_))), 1))." " for split;'
14:34:32 <fizzie> `run words 9 | perl -ne 'chomp; print uc(substr($_, int(rand(length($_))), 1))." " for split;'
14:34:43 <fizzie> Distribution should be more or less appropriate.
14:35:00 <myname> the last one seems pretty hard
14:35:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: I recommend 12dicts, see eg. http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts-readme/
14:35:27 <Taneb> "sodomy" or "modulo" for the first one
14:35:45 <fizzie> It probably doesn't approximate well the distribution resulting from people being able to select between the revealed vowel or consonant.
14:35:57 <myname> i'd suggest a minimum percentage of vowels
14:36:23 <Taneb> Nothing for the second
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14:40:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: really, check out 12dicts, it's a nice set of useful wordlists compiled methodically and comes with a readme explaining everything
14:44:39 <fizzie> I made one of those out of a trie of the character frequency vector representation. You know, for the word set "aaa", "abb", "abc" and "ccc" it'd have a structure like http://sprunge.us/jOcj
14:45:09 <fizzie> Then you just get the corresponding vector for the input word, and walk through the part of the tree where the nodes are <=.
14:48:13 <fizzie> Probably should collapse out the *:0 nodes by hanging the letter-to-test on each vertex too.
14:51:36 <b_jonas> let's compare your program to fungot!
14:51:37 <fungot> b_jonas: its just decorative lo
14:52:24 <b_jonas> fungot: what's the longest word you can make from this multiset of letters: Y A U M S Q C L L
14:52:24 <fungot> b_jonas: k. i bring the mini project. and course to go.then no nid to use rite
14:56:47 <Taneb> Would I be sent to the asylum for calmly suggesting that fungot is clumsy?
14:56:47 <fungot> Taneb: oh i am here already. outside the soya tha mai q
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15:33:15 <coppro> b_jonas: I can get a couple of sixees. Also when did you find your way over here
15:34:06 <coppro> Taneb: I would have no qualms doing so
15:34:27 <coppro> as long as you don't raise a squall
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15:43:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, updated my corpus (not to 12dict yet) and got a seven (squally)
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16:03:58 <fizzie> "callums", says the Google ngram corpus, among others. But it's not at all limited to real words, so it would.
16:05:02 <fizzie> (All seven-letter unigrams it found were: allysum ascully callums clumsly cmsally mascull mcaully mcsally mulcays musycal scyllam smallyu squally)
16:06:32 <fizzie> It contains all words that appear at least 200 times in a sampling of one trillion words from publicly available web pages.
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16:44:34 <fizzie> I took a flower photo, and these guys "photobombed" it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140831-bug.jpg
16:50:43 <Jafet> You should know that macros invite bugs.
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17:49:16 <Sgeo_> How many times is Minecraft going to be 1.8?
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18:21:14 <Hjulle> Alpha, beta, stable and what?
18:21:55 <Taneb> Alpha only went up to 1.2
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18:22:54 <Taneb> So we are still 2 or 3 1.8s away from 4
18:25:30 <coppro> fizzie: I don't think any of those sevens are real
18:26:19 <fizzie> It's in the OED, it's "real" as per the rules of the game, AIUI.
18:26:28 <Taneb> coppro, I oed'd squally
18:26:51 <fizzie> "squally, adj.2. 1. Characterized by the prevalence of squalls. a. Of places, seasons, etc."
18:27:43 <coppro> many things are in the OED
18:28:06 <Taneb> OED is the corpus used by Countdown, which is the entire point of this excersize
18:28:57 <fizzie> "† ˈsqually, adj.1 Etymology: Of obscure origin. Obs. 1. Of cloth: Defective (in some specific manner). 2. (See quot. 1787.) -- 1787 W. Marshall Provincialisms in Rural Econ. Norfolk II. 389 A crop of turneps, or of corn, which is broken by vacant unproductive patches, is said to be squally."
18:29:02 <Hjulle> How many times is Minecraft 1.8 going to be "feature complete"? (followed by more features being added)
18:29:05 <fizzie> Taneb: You should train on it, then.
18:30:05 <Hjulle> Does minecraft count as an esoteric programming language?
18:30:44 <Hjulle> What is the definition?
18:31:38 <Taneb> I think Minecraft 1.8's redstone mechanism might be turing complete
18:32:13 <fizzie> "Of philosophical doctrines, treatises, modes of speech, etc.: Designed for, or appropriate to, an inner circle of advanced or privileged disciples; communicated to, or intelligible by, the initiated exclusively. Hence of disciples: Belonging to the inner circle, admitted to the esoteric teaching."
18:32:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, redstone is something you can make digital circuitry with in Minecraft
18:32:33 <Hjulle> Taneb: Hasn't redstone been turing complete from the start?
18:32:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: are you sure it's turing-complete as opposed to just pspace-complete?
18:33:15 <pikhq> What's the new mechanism anyways?
18:33:15 <Taneb> b_jonas, prior to 1.8 it's PSPACE-complete only
18:33:22 <Taneb> I think the slime block may fix that
18:33:45 <Taneb> Because you can have an infinite counter mechanism
18:34:21 <pikhq> For *common notions* of "turing complete" Minecraft redstone meets it though...
18:34:36 <Taneb> b_jonas, it is a block that can be pushed in a large structure. Other blocks can only be pushed in a line with max length 12
18:34:57 <pikhq> In that you can quite easily do Turing-complete-modulo-space within it.
18:35:49 <J_Arcane> That reminds me that I wonder what sort of computing projects the Powder Toy folks are up to.
18:36:30 <Hjulle> Why is there no page about Minecraft at the Esolangs Wiki?
18:36:55 <Taneb> Because no-one has made it
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18:37:53 <fizzie> There's a channel about the union of #esoteric and minecraft, but it gets a comment about every three months.
18:39:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/QfLK <- monthly traffic in number of comments.
18:40:15 <Taneb> Anyone want to get a creative server and try to prove 1.8 turing complete?
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18:41:20 <fizzie> Taneb: The wiki claims that "The maximum of 12 blocks moved by a piston still applies. For example, a 2×2×3 collection of Slime Blocks may be pushed or pulled by a sticky piston as long as no other movable blocks are adjacent to it."
18:41:40 <Taneb> fizzie, but you can create something that pushes itself
18:46:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that works, but then again, I'm no Minecraft engineer.
18:47:47 <Taneb> There are some details at http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Slime_block#Motion_by_pistons
18:53:12 <Hjulle> There are flying machines made with the slime blocks.
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18:57:28 <Hjulle> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X393TelG0mQ
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19:01:03 <Hjulle> Btw. it is possible to push stuff longer than 12 blocks by using pistons and redstone bocks even without slime blocks.
19:01:41 <Taneb> Hjulle, up to an indefinite distance from a finite starting space?
19:02:25 <Hjulle> With the possible exception of chunks not loading, but as far as I know, yes.
19:03:47 <Hjulle> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxgJbpHxvI
19:05:23 <TieSoul> wait, are we talking about redstone as an esoteric programming language?
19:05:56 <Hjulle> I think it is pretty esoteric, don't you?
19:06:23 <TieSoul> Tried making a full adder once, kept failing :P
19:06:37 <zzo38> I think that if you can categorize it, give a description of its working, and/or post examples, then it is probably good idea to put into esolang wiki.
19:07:15 <zzo38> Especially if it is Turing complete.
19:08:07 <fizzie> Hjulle: I think (as far as I can tell) that machine has a fixed number of pistons and redstone blocks that it can insert. (Stone it will of course generate indefinitely.)
19:09:15 <TieSoul> also, can it be classified as a particle automaton or as object-oriented, or as neither.
19:09:24 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: also, can it be classified as a particle automaton or as object-oriented, or as neither?
19:09:41 <Hjulle> fizzie: Yes. You could use command-blocks to generate the pistons and redstone though. (if you do not see that as cheating)
19:09:46 <TieSoul> I don't think object-oriented really classifies here
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19:10:05 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: I don't think object-oriented really applies here
19:11:04 <Hjulle> Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:11:34 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: Regexp? Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:12:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: Hjulle actually meant: Regexp.egexp? Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:12:32 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:12:36 <fizzie> I think a hypothetical Minecraft article should cover both "pure" and "cheating" kinds of Minecraft programming.
19:12:50 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: I Regexp.hink a hypothetical Minecraft article should cover both "pure" and "cheating" kinds of Minecraft programming.
19:13:00 <fizzie> No, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:27 <TieSoul> huh, why doesn't that become IRegexp.think...?
19:13:35 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:52 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:59 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don think I meant that.t think I meant that.
19:14:28 <TieSoul> that's not supposed to happen I think
19:14:33 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: that's not supposed to happen I think
19:14:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: that's supposed to happen I think
19:15:33 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant:
19:15:35 <fizzie> I don't think you can put ^ in a zero-width look-behind assertion.
19:15:48 <fizzie> It works only for a fixed-width look-behind, anyway.
19:15:57 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: well a bug.
19:16:10 <shachaf> Melvar: I think I wanted it for e.g. hexdump output
19:16:30 <shachaf> Melvar: On the right side, not the hexdump side, that is. So the hexdump part is actually completely irrelevant here.
19:17:15 <fizzie> Printing out "."s for nonprintable characters was good enough for our ancestors, it should be good enough for you.
19:17:52 <TieSoul> I use the regex /^s\/.+(?<!\\)\/.*(?<!\\)\/[ig]*([1-9][0-9]*)*[ig]*$$/ for recognizing a s/a/b/ :P
19:18:19 <TieSoul> make that * after the numeric group a ?
19:19:46 <DootBot> fizzie: Regex /\\/-/ not found.
19:20:51 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: foo-bar
19:21:15 <fizzie> The conventional way of doing "up to next delimiter expect when escaping" is not with a look-behind but with something like ([^/\\]|\\.)*/ or some-such.
19:21:43 <Hjulle> What are you using for applying the regex?
19:22:07 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:22:21 <TieSoul> some of the stuff in there was not meant for this channel btw :P
19:23:14 <TieSoul> also this is from before I removed the HELLOs and BYEs.
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19:24:36 <fizzie> There are people who feel very negatively to autojoining after a kick.
19:24:56 <fizzie> boily: No, no, it was about something else.
19:25:15 <shachaf> autojoining after *anyone* gets kicked
19:25:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:25:49 <shachaf> a channel has two states, pre-kick and post-kick. after it's grown big enough that someone needs to get kicked, autojoining is discouraged.
19:25:54 <DootBot> shachaf: shachaf actually meant: a channel has two states, pre-kick and post-kick. after it's grown big enough that someone needs to get kicked, autojoining is discouraged.$
19:26:15 <TieSoul> okay there's a tiny bug in there
19:26:49 <fizzie> I think you should possibly make it have channel-specific feature lists.
19:26:51 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: I think you should possibly make it have channel-specific feature lists.
19:27:24 <TieSoul> hjulle that's not supposed to be recognized :O
19:28:06 <Hjulle> .+ is greedy. It matches any characters.
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19:30:13 <Hjulle> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/172303/is-there-a-regular-expression-to-detect-a-valid-regular-expression
19:31:50 <boily> that's fascinating, but only because it's not happening to me.
19:31:52 <Hjulle> This has a better answer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/675090/regular-expression-for-finding-a-regular-expression
19:33:23 <Hjulle> Use "/^s\/.*\/.*" to identify and some other method for validating.
19:34:23 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: Use "/^s\/.*\/.\*\/" to identify and some other method for validating.
19:34:59 <TieSoul> "Evaluate it in a try..catch or whatever your language provides." best answer
19:35:13 <TieSoul> also there are many bugs in doot's s/// thing
19:35:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: This pours! But two DOOT! slightly duplexbegoat ubers!
19:35:40 <TieSoul> but it works for common purposes
19:35:58 <TieSoul> which is what it's meant for :P
19:36:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: which is what its meant for :P
19:36:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: which is what it's meant for :P
19:38:37 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: which is what it's meant for :P
19:38:55 <TieSoul> that should not be matched
19:39:33 <fizzie> It's quite noisy to have the corrected version repeated, however.
19:39:35 <TieSoul> which makes for more bugs actually
19:39:36 * boily mapoles TieSoul with a /.
19:39:53 <DootBot> TieSoul: boily actually meant: <CTCP>ACTION mapoles fizzie with a /.<CTCP>
19:40:22 <boily> eille! since when are bots allowed to redirect my mapoling???
19:41:12 <boily> also, no one in their right mind would be mapoling HM Fizzie without dire consequences.
19:41:36 <Hjulle> There is a reason for using s/a/b instead of just retyping the whole sentence. So sadly, I agree with fizzle.
19:41:57 <TieSoul> what should I make it say then? :P
19:42:27 <Hjulle> On the other hand it can be abused for fun. :D
19:42:30 <Taneb> It could requre explicit DootBot: s/foo/bar/
19:42:30 <DootBot> Taneb: Those i over. so, confirm the dongers 2 this something the!
19:42:37 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil. :D
19:43:29 <DootBot> TieSoul: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil, MWAHAHAHA.:D
19:44:10 <Hjulle> Does doot have one-character prefix for calling?
19:44:10 <DootBot> Hjulle: I !source and best hype wonder.
19:44:38 <DootBot> Hjulle: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:45:23 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil, MWAHAHAHA. :D
19:46:49 <fizzie> Re-execute named subexpression.
19:47:00 <fizzie> $ ruby2.1 -e '/(?<x>\g<x>)/ =~ "x"'
19:47:00 <fizzie> -e:1: never ending recursion: /(?<x>\g<x>)/
19:47:08 <fizzie> I was just curious about how the error'd show up.
19:48:55 <fizzie> It's not a really a neverending recursion.
19:49:54 <TieSoul> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:50:02 <TieSoul> s/a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa/b/
19:51:13 <Hjulle> How many combinations was that?
19:51:50 <fizzie> You can write it as (a?){32}a{32} with less work.
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19:52:16 <fizzie> Or however many there were, I didn't count.
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19:55:13 <TieSoul> sorry there was a thing in another channel
19:55:31 <TieSoul> with a bot who needed Leonys AND itself to be OP'd for a command to work for some reason
19:55:41 <TieSoul> so I changed my nick to Leonys and it worked :P
19:57:27 <TieSoul> and the command kicks anyone who uses it xD
20:01:30 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: #{m.user.nick}nd the command kicks anyone who uses it xD
20:07:16 <Hjulle> I'd probably replace .+(?<!\\) with ([^\/]|\\\/)+ (and use another delimiter than / if possible)
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20:08:11 <fizzie> Hjulle: That doesn't match any other escapes than \/.
20:09:16 <Hjulle> What else is needed? I guess \
20:09:27 <fizzie> All kinds of things. Like "\d".
20:10:11 <fizzie> Or is that covered by the [^/] part, hmm.
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20:10:16 <Hjulle> oh, I'm stupid. of course
20:10:40 <fizzie> The way I've usually seen it is ([^/\\]|\\.)* or some approximation thereof.
20:11:03 <Hjulle> \ needs to be exluded in the first part to prevent missmatching \s
20:11:44 <DootBot> Hjulle: Regex /\\/"\\"/ not found.
20:11:57 <DootBot> Hjulle: Regex /\\/"\"/ not found.
20:15:49 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSoul-AWAAAY.
20:15:54 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: \needs to be exluded in the first part to prevent missmatching \s
20:16:17 -!- impomatic_ has joined.
20:16:34 <DootBot> TieSoul-AWAAAY: Hjulle actually meant: \ ende sotb exeuled dnit ehf ritsp ra totp erevtnm simstahcni gs\
20:17:05 <zzo38> What is the best way I can do string suffix optimization?
20:17:21 <DootBot> TieSoul-AWAAAY: zzo38 actually meant: hWtai sht eebtsw yaI c nad otsirgns fuif xpoitimazitno?
20:25:42 <fizzie> If you mean the kind of thing C compilers do to string literals, a reversed-string trie sounds like one natural solution.
20:26:25 <Hjulle> zzo38: Why are you asking that question here?
20:26:28 <zzo38> fizzie: Something similar to that, yes, for example if strings are "hello world" and "world". However, it is somewhat more complicated that that because it is Z-machine text packing.
20:26:37 <zzo38> Hjulle: Because I don't know!
20:27:32 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: zzo38: Why are you asking that question _here_?
20:27:52 <zzo38> Because I don't know what else to ask such question. I did try on other thing too but still I don't know
20:27:56 <fizzie> Well, I don't know anything about Z-machine text packing. But if you add all strings one by one in the reverse-string trie, you can then store only the leaf nodes, and the existing non-leaf nodes can be pointers to an arbitrary descendant leaf.
20:28:58 <fizzie> Hjulle: We're not so strict about staying on topic; see e.g. 98% of the stuff that goes on here. (A number of people do lament this.)
20:29:05 <zzo38> When doing Z-machine text packing, one consideration is that for example if two strings are "It broke and now it doesn't work!" and "It doesn't work!" then it can be considered as a suffix even though it isn't. (This involves adding fives to the end of the prefix and a four to the beginning of the suffix.)
20:29:31 <Hjulle> fizzie: Of course, I was just curious.
20:34:36 <Hjulle> When will the results of the brainfuck survey be public
20:34:54 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: When will the results of the brainfuck survey be public?
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20:42:02 <boily> what goes? why so the frowny face?
20:45:11 <quintopia> because someone had pinged me and i wasn't around
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20:45:29 <quintopia> i was going to invite you to play chess yesterday
20:45:57 <quintopia> don't know if it'll work on my phone
20:46:00 <boily> nooooooooooooooo :(
20:46:11 <boily> are all Sundays unchessable?
20:46:35 <Taneb> I should play chess more
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20:47:39 <boily> quintopia: I haven't found any good yet, even on the xiangqi and shōgi end of the thing.
20:48:00 <coppro> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pl.mg6.yafi
20:48:18 <boily> (except a not that bad one of dōbutsu shōgi. it even has the original art!)
20:48:47 <Taneb> I went to my uni's chess club once or twice last year. I'll make an effort to go more often this year, I think
20:49:39 <Daan> Hello, I'm on codegolf.stackexchange, and they mention a brainfuck variant call brainflow. I see no mention of it on the esoteric wiki. Is it possible that it hasn't been documented yet?
20:49:59 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:50:15 <Daan> I wont deny that Hackego.
20:50:44 <fizzie> A "brainflow" has not been mentioned on the channel.
20:50:46 <b_jonas> quite possible. there's too many esoteric languages existing to be all documented
20:51:04 <Taneb> Is the antiderivative always the integral?
20:51:08 <quintopia> there are several godawful esolangs that do not in any way resemble bf
20:51:31 <Daan> True, it just seems weird that one is well known enough to be asked to code golf, but is not on the wiki.
20:51:37 <b_jonas> I think there might be more esoteric languages than fit in a set, so most of them can't even be named by strings uniquely and as such can't have a page on our wiki.
20:51:55 <Taneb> Or is there some number system with well-defined, sensible derivatives and integrals that are unrelated
20:52:27 <quintopia> b_jonas: while true, it remains that any esolang which has ever had a reasonably functional program written in it seems to have a name
20:52:29 <b_jonas> Or if not yet, someone will probably invent a large class of esoteric languages like that.
20:52:30 <coppro> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/36995/brainflow-interpreter
20:52:47 <fizzie> Some of those features seem vaguely familiar.
20:52:53 <Bike> Taneb: antiderivative and integral aren't the same normally. what do you mean exactly
20:53:04 <Taneb> I dunno, I'm confused
20:53:07 <coppro> basically brainfuck with addressing
20:53:29 <b_jonas> Am I too far from the truth?
20:54:12 <Bike> e.g. you can compute integrals without going through the antiderivative, like with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integral
20:54:23 <Bike> though it usually only comes up if the antiderivative is unelementary and thus a pain in the ass
20:54:28 <boily> is there an esolang fixed point?
20:55:27 <quintopia> today has been lonely but somewhat entertaining
20:55:48 <J_Arcane> I've been doing Project Euler problems all day.
20:55:54 <Bike> or, i mean, you can just do the riemann sum bullshit, or lebesgue probably
20:56:03 <coppro> J_Arcane: what about applescript?
20:56:11 <J_Arcane> Does HyperTalk/AppleScript count as an esolang?
20:56:12 <boily> quintopia: no idea. fixed points still scare the fungot out of me.
20:56:12 <fungot> boily: i only free on for bible coordinators to come to church. pls tel romesh too. and that if should pls send me a mail to them. praise the righteous lord of the rings. u know abt wat new phone so i lost
20:56:29 <boily> fungot: I will tell romesh about bible coördinators.
20:56:29 <fungot> boily: ya i hav got one downloading the full match started.india for 2. got to order of phoenix... got den buy.
20:56:46 <coppro> quintopia: \bot is the worst
20:57:09 <coppro> quintopia: link to what?
20:57:42 <fizzie> "praise the righteous lord of the rings" is a good one.
20:58:24 * boily mysteriously disappears...
20:58:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PERSIAN CHICKEN).
20:58:44 <coppro> fizzie: is fungot's chain first-order?
20:58:44 <fungot> coppro: one senioq akka, dos in our lab a room dinusha as wel. i am hapy2 hear ur voice. i so had awoonderful time with ur parents!everysecond spent wif u is so happyfying!
20:59:25 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
20:59:34 <fizzie> coppro: It's https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
20:59:40 <fizzie> coppro: Kneser-Ney smoothed variable-order.
20:59:40 <zzo38> Do you have example of such a suffix optimization so that I can see how it is working?
20:59:55 <Bike> Taneb: there's also weird bullshit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_derivative
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21:27:26 <fizzie> zzo38: I checked how libbfd does it (it's a part of binutils, and seems to be the piece of code responsible for merging string literal suffixes), and it's done by sorting the array of string constants with a reversed-string compare operation, and then walks the array backwards and tries to merge neighbor entries. You can see it in action at ...
21:27:31 <fizzie> ... https://sourceware.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=binutils-gdb.git;a=blob;f=bfd/merge.c (look for is_suffix and merge_strings) but the details are somewhat obscured by their hash table stuff.
21:27:39 <fizzie> The same file takes care of general merging of identical sections.
21:29:42 <fizzie> Can't say offhand how that compares to my reverse-string trie idea. The sorting of the array is clearly O(n log n) in terms of comparisons, the trie might be asymptotically better but not in practice.
21:30:22 <shachaf> Bike: what do you think of adjointness
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21:43:28 <Guest98157> I'm just here because I was curious about fungot
21:43:28 <fungot> Guest98157: no. i.ll come see
21:44:19 <Taneb> fungot, what do you make of Guest98157
21:44:19 <fungot> Taneb: ur frnds only na. plz. plz. plz. plz. plz. your number shows out of coveragd area? thanks, min
21:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
21:44:46 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
21:44:56 <Taneb> fungot, what did you mean by that?
21:44:56 <fungot> Taneb: i should probably forget alchemy. that's the primary dad, the luftwaffe und die panzer divisions are meeting resistance, mein fhrer, i am! oh, damn, the orichalcum just isn't it? we're just clever.
21:45:08 <Guest98157> They're markov chains from different areas of the internet, then?
21:45:19 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:45:29 <Taneb> fungot, how just clever are you?
21:45:30 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, censorship is prohibited by law in the biotechnology sector seems to us to be faithful to the spirit of collaboration with the european union will continue to impress on mr harbour and i should like to begin by saying that the council should pursue in dialogue with us, changed its proposal and adopts the one tabled by mr ribeiro e castro, whom i will not go into the details of how this should be achieved by
21:45:39 <Taneb> Some are from offline
21:45:40 <fizzie> Guest98157: Technically, they're variable-length n-gram models built with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
21:46:01 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
21:46:17 <Taneb> fungot, how should this be achieved
21:46:17 <fungot> Taneb: thrasimachus. see, see, a book of all that hear me, fnord, lives sweetly where she dies
21:46:25 <fizzie> (How does one even hear about fungot without being here?)
21:46:26 <fungot> fizzie: amadine. and lived so long unknown? with watch and ward each passage is beset, so that in this vniust diuorce of vs, may serue so great a thing should i haue wish'd a thing, it had beene any fnord childe: a parted eu'n iust betweene twelue and one) you may say what sights you see; i see things may serue long, but sodaine stormes are short, he tyres betimes, that afterwards wee may digest our complots in some form. exeun
21:46:44 <fizzie> Not all of the models are terribly good in what they do, to be honest.
21:47:13 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
21:47:24 <Guest98157> I assume you're going to be very annoying now, fungot
21:47:24 <fungot> Guest98157: a lot of shit. ooooooh the 130 passengers on board
21:47:35 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
21:47:38 <fizzie> That's from, like, three videos, so don't expect too much.
21:47:45 <J_Arcane> fungot: What is your favorite game?
21:47:45 <fungot> J_Arcane: a given filter input signal, bit mapped mode ( see string operations). it can be displayed on the screen configuration of the commodore 64 basic.
21:47:49 <Taneb> Guest98157, I've been telling a few people about it, but I don't think I'm that friend
21:47:54 <fizzie> And the C64 stuff isn't very well line-joined.
21:48:15 <fizzie> fungot: That doesn't sound like any particular game to me.
21:48:16 <fungot> fizzie: the great thing about your commodore 64. they are de-allocated by the sprite-back- ground priority register located at one address in that case.
21:48:17 <J_Arcane> Or at least "sense," within the domain of 1980s programming documentation.
21:48:27 <fizzie> Yeah, I agree, that's the one great thing.
21:48:44 <J_Arcane> Amusingly, this also reminds me of why I want to do the Lambda64 project. XD
21:49:06 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
21:50:47 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:51:05 <fizzie> I think we've just about exhausted all its features.
21:52:04 <fizzie> It's a hardcoded command, because neither the ^bf nor the ^ul can (or at least should be able to) do anything non-deterministic.
21:52:36 <fizzie> Though maybe an "^8ball your question here" kind of thing could be written with brainfuck, with the result based on a hash of the input.
21:53:14 <fizzie> It's also an idea that sounds so familiar, I can't be sure if I (or someone else) already did it.
21:53:17 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
21:53:30 <fizzie> Well, none of those seem quite relevant.
21:54:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:55:00 <Guest98157> Right now I'm trying to make something in Python... converts strings of BF with variables in them to the proper amount of arrows to take the pointer to the given variable
21:55:40 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
21:56:34 <fizzie> Heh, that dates from before the bugfix, it has non-run-length-encoded ">>" but a correct "<2".
21:56:40 <oerjan> i don't think that eval works
21:57:06 <oerjan> (it's underload, not bf, but still doesn't work)
21:57:08 <Guest98157> I really need to make a wiki account for the esolangs wiki
21:58:00 <fizzie> Sadly, there's no ^undef command (still on the TODO list), so we're stuck with all the cruft that has accumulated over the years.
21:58:01 <oerjan> underload doesn't really take input, so nothing like the ! convention for bf exists
21:58:23 <oerjan> fizzie: you _could_ edit the file by hand, no?
21:59:02 <oerjan> also, i thought the cruft was somewhat limited by only being saved if you ^save before the next crash
21:59:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes to both, I guess.
21:59:22 <oerjan> and ^srmlebac is _not_ cruft hth
21:59:58 <fizzie> ^def srmlebac bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]
22:00:01 <fungot> >2,[>,]<[<]>[.>2]<[>2]<2[.<2]
22:00:10 <fizzie> Let's optimize it if it's so vital, then.
22:00:18 -!- Ando has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:00:52 <fizzie> ">2" is a single instruction in the intermediate bytecode; ">>" would have been two.
22:01:20 <fizzie> Now you can srmlebac longer strings. Assuming it runs out of time in anything that fits inside an IRC message, which is doubtful.
22:01:24 <oerjan> oh there was a bug in the parsing before?
22:01:51 <fizzie> Yes, the code that combined consecutive commands didn't work for >, only <+-.
22:02:49 <fizzie> I think the fix is part of https://github.com/fis/fungot/commit/1025e3b
22:02:49 <fungot> fizzie: each peripheral device. when timeouts are enabled. when set to 1.
22:02:54 <oerjan> hm where does ^def put the command if it's already defined?
22:03:05 <fizzie> oerjan: It replaces the old one.
22:03:13 -!- Daan has joined.
22:03:16 <fizzie> That's what it's supposed to do.
22:03:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
22:03:38 <Daan> hello, guest. New to esotric as well?
22:03:46 <fizzie> It's still in the same place in the sort order, so I think that's what happened.
22:04:07 <Guest98157> if you've seen anything done by Christian Manahl in the wiki that's me.
22:04:42 <Daan> Not yet, but names dont stick with me. I still have a hard time remember who wrote befunge and bf
22:04:49 <Daan> chris and... urban?
22:05:04 <fizzie> ^def backwards bf ,[>,]<[.<]
22:05:19 <fizzie> I think that's a reimplementation of "rev", though.
22:05:26 <Daan> fungot is a bf bot?
22:05:26 <fungot> Daan: 30 for l= 1 to 500:next another device it is the vertical direction, the
22:05:29 <Guest98157> Can only mods add function definitions?
22:05:48 <fizzie> Guest98157: No, it's a free-for-all. Though you can't override built-in commands.
22:06:06 <oerjan> only fizzie can make them _stick_ though. it's his bot.
22:06:15 <Guest98157> Perhaps that's why someone resorted to calling a function 'srmlebac'.
22:06:41 <oerjan> Guest98157: the name makes perfect sense actually
22:06:52 <fizzie> It's the reverse of... I keep forgetting what the exact relationship is between (scramble, unscramble, srmlebac, uenlsbcmra).
22:07:13 <oerjan> i believe scramble and srmlebac are synonyms
22:07:20 <oerjan> and the others are the inverses
22:07:47 <Daan> I wanted to ask. I've written an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Puzzlang (it was unimplemented) and where would be the best place to ask if someone could test it out?
22:08:22 <Daan> really? I'd appreciate it. It's in lua.
22:08:24 <shachaf> Could you test out changing your nick to something that doesn't start with Guest?
22:08:59 -!- Guest98157 has changed nick to CMM.
22:09:12 <Daan> down on the page I linked under implementations. InPuzzlang
22:09:13 -!- CMM has changed nick to ChrisMM.
22:09:28 <Daan> Puzzlang is a bit weird though.
22:09:46 <Daan> though there are example scripts on the page.
22:09:49 <ChrisMM> what do you mean invalid password
22:11:02 <Daan> The instructions are in the script source, that's you'll find on github with the link. If anything is less than clear, feedback is greatly appreciated.
22:11:24 <fizzie> Daan: To answer your earlier question, it's more of a "befunge bot that runs brainfuck/underload" than "brainfuck bot".
22:12:11 <fizzie> (That's where the "fung" part of the name comes from.)
22:12:13 <Daan> ah, name wise. Is it written with mirc script(?) or another?
22:12:23 <fizzie> It's written in Befunge.
22:12:28 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
22:13:28 <Daan> oh wow, even it's interaction (idk) with irc is in befunge.
22:13:54 <oerjan> ChrisMM: the nick ChrisMM is already registered, but it hasn't been used in so long that you can easily get an admin to release it for you.
22:14:32 <oerjan> although i don't on the spot remember exactly how you find an admin, again.
22:14:32 <ChrisMM> Arright. I don't really care :P
22:14:39 <ChrisMM> It's probably not my first choice for username anyway
22:15:44 -!- FreeFull has joined.
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22:16:10 <ChrisMM> OK, daan, getting your code
22:16:17 <Ando> lousy internet connection.
22:16:23 <Ando> thanks Chris :D
22:17:04 <ChrisMM> I probably shouldn't be giving you too much hope, I know nothing about Lua. I'm just gonna write some Puzzlang stuff and pass it to your code and tell you what happens.
22:17:40 <Ando> first interpreter I've written... though it's more of a translator. It can execute the translated bf code though.
22:17:42 -!- Daan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:18:00 <ChrisMM> Oh, yeah, no worries, it's impressive
22:18:04 -!- Ando has changed nick to Daan.
22:18:15 <ChrisMM> I wrote my first interpreter and was super excited. It's Cork on the wiki.
22:18:21 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:19:54 <Daan> The page doesn't seem to link to your implementation (if I'm looking right)
22:20:13 <ChrisMM> Because I thought it was a horrible implementation and I vowed I would improve it and I didn't
22:20:21 <ChrisMM> I still have it saved, though..
22:20:50 <oerjan> ChrisMM: oh hm i realized my sentence has ambiguous parsing, s/hasn't been used/has been unused/
22:21:39 <ChrisMM> Either way I interpreted it right
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22:24:15 <ChrisMM> I haven't encountered any errors yet, Daan
22:24:50 -!- Guest60563 has quit (Client Quit).
22:25:01 <Daan> I'll probably rewrite it in python once I learn python again.
22:25:19 -!- Sprocklem_ has joined.
22:25:40 <Daan> Not that it's that important, puzzlang is probably on of the more obscure bf derivitive to be found on the wiki
22:25:54 <ChrisMM> http://pastebin.com/bMcufWvS
22:26:15 <ChrisMM> Hey, as long as you're having fun programming it's worth it ^^
22:26:33 <Daan> the esoteric thing is very fun.
22:26:43 -!- Sprocklem_ has changed nick to Sprocklem.
22:26:48 <ChrisMM> I have yet to find the perfect language.
22:27:08 <ChrisMM> FALSE is awesome, but I've spent days trying to make an interpreter in Python and I can't figure it out
22:29:55 <Daan> to use your interpreter do I "python interpreter.py script.crk"?
22:30:57 <ChrisMM> you have to manually pass the code as a string to run
22:31:18 <ChrisMM> exactly why I was too embarrassed to publish it
22:31:34 <Daan> hehe. seems doable to fix it up.
22:31:57 <Daan> it's cool that you've come up with your own language.
22:32:03 <Daan> I'm not there yet.
22:32:30 <ChrisMM> It's really way way simple
22:32:58 <ChrisMM> and I'm lacking in a bunch of things when it comes to coding, I assure you.
22:33:08 <Daan> aren't we all.
22:34:19 <ChrisMM> I've just been doing a lot of coding on this school-issued laptop? so I'm not allowed to use command line, I've just been using repl.it
22:36:50 <Daan> how does one execute the source code that's copy/pasted on the left?
22:36:58 <oerjan> <Daan> Not that it's that important, puzzlang is probably on of the more obscure bf derivitive to be found on the wiki <-- I dunno the competition is fierce hth
22:37:13 <ChrisMM> There's an arrow up and to the right that runs it in the command line
22:37:23 <Daan> to make a more obsure bf derivative?
22:37:41 <Daan> right, see it. thanks.
22:38:10 <fizzie> I have here a False compiler targeting the Java VM, I wonder how complete it is.
22:38:11 <Daan> you don't think Highly of bf, Id imagine.
22:38:13 <fizzie> I think it's one of those that ran aground at the bytecode validator due to trying to be overly clever and use the JVM stack directly as the False stack.
22:38:30 <oerjan> Daan: no we don't think highly of bd _derivatives_. observe:
22:38:35 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
22:38:57 <Daan> oh, lol I thought hackego was a person.
22:39:10 <oerjan> that doesn't mean they are absolutely _all_ bad, but they're ridiculously overdone.
22:39:24 <Daan> Well, I can see that perspective. It was cool learning bf though.
22:39:26 <ChrisMM> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Placement
22:40:06 <Daan> yeah, saw that one a bit ago. that'll be hard to test.
22:40:33 <Daan> reminds me of the "what colour is the bear" riddle.
22:40:56 -!- boily has joined.
22:42:06 <Daan> wich esoteric language do you find the most exciting atm, Oerjan?
22:45:56 <oerjan> hm it's been a while since i did anything exciting with esolangs
22:46:21 <Daan> turing complete
22:46:41 <Daan> I have no idea what fault handling is (sort of), but that's cool.
22:48:11 <oerjan> my emmental interpreter of underload may have been the last thing that was really cool
22:48:16 <newsham> cpu instruction tries to access an address, mmu looks it up, finds there is no translation for it, causes an "exception", which causes the cpu to push stuff on the stack and jump to a distinguished address (fault handler address, based on an entry in a table in memory)
22:48:34 <oerjan> i have a soft spot for underload, though.
22:50:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:51:04 <Daan> underload is all about the stack?
22:51:19 <ChrisMM> I wrote /// in python and lost it and now I have to do it again v_v
22:51:44 <Daan> newsham, sounds very complicated to figure out. It changes with architecture?
22:53:26 <Sgeo_> What capacities do traversables give me that streams don't? Converting from stream to data structure is the big thing I can think of, but considering that I can just have the oriignal object be on hand... hard to think of examples
22:56:24 <Sgeo_> So I could go through the trouble of creating Applicatives etc. and basically having functionality similar to original van Laarhoven lenses... or I could avoid doing that with no major repercussions?
22:56:59 <oerjan> oh hm the last thing i have on my website seems to be the resplicate tc proof
23:00:05 <boily> resplicate is great. it even has a nice logo to go with it ^^
23:02:13 <ChrisMM> gha what's wrnog with my codeeee
23:02:39 <oerjan> Daan: yes it's a stack language, although note that it can construct programs on the fly to put there so it's stack use is much more than the numbers of e.g. befunge
23:04:01 <zzo38> I do not quite understand the hash tables in merge.c
23:04:26 -!- Daan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:13:04 <zzo38> But I can see it is based on qsort and strrevcmp which are also some of my idea related to such things
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23:19:23 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 backwards
23:20:05 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
23:20:37 <fungot> +3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,]
23:20:55 <lambdabot> CYQB 312315Z 25014G24KT 4SM -TSRA BR BKN020 OVC040 21/19 A2982 RMK SC7SC1 CB EMBDD VIS LWR E PRESRR SLP099 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
23:21:04 <boily> yup. -TSRA indeed.
23:21:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:10 <fungot> ,[.,]+14[>+8>+4>+7>+6<4-]>2+2.-26.>2+3.+14.+7.<+.>+3.-2.<+2.<.<+4.>3+2.<2.>2+5.<+3.-3.<.+73.+5.>2.<.>-2.-4.<-4.<2.>-5.>2+.-.<.>-2.<-65.<-.+13.>2-10.<.>+4.<2-6.<-2.>2.+69.<2+.>.+5.>.<-2.>+4.>-3.-67.<2-2.<-.-3.-8.>+2.<-6.>-5..>.<+.<+6.>3.<2-2.>-8.<+2.<.>+7.>.<2.-2.>3.<3-.>2+4.<-2.>+4.-2.<-5.>2.<-6.<.>+3.>.<3.+.>+2.<+7.>-.+10.<+.>2+.<2+.>-5.>2+.-.<-31.<2+.>-2.>2.<2-5.+2.+3.>+31.>.<+4.<-4.-8.>+6.+3.<2-2.>-5.>+2.<2-4.+6.-.>3+12.-12.
23:22:37 <ChrisMM> ascii doesn't have color support
23:22:53 <ChrisMM> ^rainbow %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:22:53 <fungot> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:23:01 <boily> the joys and wonders of IRC.
23:23:04 <ChrisMM> ^rainbow2 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:23:04 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:12 <boily> ChrisMM: were you ever `relcomed?
23:23:17 <HackEgo> ChrisMM: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:23:17 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:24 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:56 <fungot> (I think you mean @tell instead?)S
23:24:08 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 backwards
23:24:36 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:24:49 <boily> ChrisMM: it's far from the worst spamming we sometimes have. nothing surprising there, and tbh it's quite enjoyable hth
23:25:04 <boily> (also, have you read your wisdom PDF today? :D)
23:25:21 <zzo38> Well, you can send such command using private message too if you like to
23:26:42 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> ^def output >>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-
23:26:51 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> <+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> <]>.[-]]<<++++++[-<++++++++>]<.[-]<<[-<+>]<
23:27:31 <ChrisMM> ^def output bf >>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-
23:27:31 <ChrisMM> <+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++
23:27:45 <ChrisMM> Took you long enough, Fungot.
23:29:05 <ChrisMM> <]>.[-]]<<+6[-<+8>]<.[-]<<[-<+>]<
23:29:47 <fungot> ChrisMM: there are two other lines, see the game paddle input description at 54297 ( d419) for the printer to go back to your program at its full speed. this allows you to read or set this pointer themselves, in fact, the
23:29:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:30:02 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
23:30:13 <ChrisMM> Oh, I assumed it would be like the darwin command line
23:30:20 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
23:30:23 <fungot> ChrisMM: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff :p anything in the database transactions that have failed due to the error that would otherwise not have to simplify the program will end
23:30:41 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
23:30:44 <fungot> ChrisMM: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear co
23:31:03 <fungot> AndoDaan: good idea! the thought of that??? you are quite a sn0b 4h4h4h4 so gull1bl3 beard, he was, in fact, his cadre of fellow wizards for real just like it is for your other artifacts beneath his extremely important
23:31:16 <fungot> AndoDaan: you do a very quick doodle of nothing in here except an opening in the floor. an off-suited king and jack. he came here into our game and caused him to surrender to overwhelming emotions. more problems in the four most vociferous trolls so far, who's not, really,
23:31:33 <boily> AndoDaan: fungot is fungot. it's all fungot now.
23:31:33 <fungot> boily: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or was it?
23:31:44 -!- not^v has changed nick to CaretVeePomm.
23:31:54 <fungot> AndoDaan: but it is your journey i am in sports legend, charles. jewels of wisdom. good grief. you can't turn your sylladex
23:32:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:32:22 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
23:32:30 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
23:32:35 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
23:32:52 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
23:32:58 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
23:33:04 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
23:33:12 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
23:33:16 <fungot> ChrisMM: it was in edward's script. but why had nothing new ever grown over these five acres of grey desolation that sprawled open to the polar sky. ascent was effected over the steep, fnord hillside ending in a very crabbed and archaic hand; and though still walking on automatically, resigned myself to the study of colonial architecture, furniture, and craftsmanship at length crowded everything else from his sphere of interest
23:34:06 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
23:34:11 <fungot> ChrisMM: it's the paul potts and andrew johnson and plowed into the trees! god bless those onboard!
23:36:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40380 * AndoDaan * (+84) Created page with "Is just starting out in esoteric languages. Has written an [[Puzzlang]] interpreter."
23:37:08 <AndoDaan> i kid... I mean, I know what I did.
23:37:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:29 <AndoDaan> How do I register my nick on here?
23:38:35 <oerjan> ChrisMM: it's awkward to define fungot commands that are longer than a single irc line, but you can do it with the str stuff
23:38:35 <fungot> oerjan: i 3 me and several others here have already explained here that slant eye saying oh no oh no oh no, oh and dont forget to tell the good work guys.
23:38:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:39:18 <oerjan> AndoDaan: /msg nickserv help
23:39:48 <shachaf> @google How do I register my nick on here?
23:41:35 <oerjan> AndoDaan: i think the faq also has some tips on what to put in your registration
23:42:19 <oerjan> i'm thinking of the server connecting
23:42:28 <AndoDaan> is nickserve freenode or actually "nickserve"?
23:43:31 <oerjan> this is the freenode network, anyhow (thus my good hit comment)
23:44:06 -!- ChrisMM has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:45:05 <AndoDaan> I was looking at the wrong screen, I think it worked thanks.
23:45:57 <lambdabot> https://twitter.com/hashtag/fungot
23:46:09 <shachaf> whoa, I've had my nick for more than 10 years.
23:47:01 <oerjan> yes he does, it's just not active
23:47:15 <oerjan> unless fizzie has reactivated it recently
23:51:01 -!- CaretVeePomm has changed nick to ^4.
23:51:23 <oerjan> i somehow doubt that's what those two girls were talking about, though