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00:57:09 <Sgeo> I think I figured out how to make highly dynamic languages co-operate as a Racket language library
00:57:38 <Sgeo> #lang tcl #:phase 'macro to have the code be run as its parsed, and thus able to make its definitions available as a library
00:58:20 <Sgeo> (And #lang tcl #:phase 'run for runtime, suitable for scripts that are meant to be run but not provide objects)
00:58:46 <Sgeo> Although tcl may be a bad example because it has a second impediment to interoperating with Racket, everything is a string
01:01:59 <elliott_> hi Nieralyte
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01:07:08 <Nieralyte> hey
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02:58:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40482&oldid=30751 * Imaginer1 * (+183) 
03:22:30 * Sgeo twitches at yellow being called a primary color
03:22:34 <Sgeo> It's just so... wrong
03:22:40 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know it's not)
03:23:48 <Bike> the only primary colors i accept are red, blue, and linearly polarized.
03:24:11 <AndoDaan> linearly polarized = green... right?
03:24:28 <AndoDaan> HAS to be green.
03:24:51 <madbr> there are no real primary colors
03:25:07 <AndoDaan> Except for red, blue and green.
03:25:21 <madbr> our eyes have 3 types of cones with strange frequency responses
03:25:38 <Bike> says you. imma tetrachromat.
03:25:49 <madbr> really?
03:26:03 <AndoDaan> pfft. Are you female, Bike?
03:26:18 <copumpkin> o.O
03:26:27 <AndoDaan> if not, then I doubt your tetrachromation.
03:26:30 <Bike> i'm a bike.
03:26:39 <AndoDaan> -...-
03:27:03 <copumpkin> well I'm a mantis shrimp
03:27:07 <Bike> i thought this was obvious.
03:27:19 <AndoDaan> What's in a name...
03:28:06 <Sgeo> 4 distinct letters, one of which is repeated twice, and a non-alphanumeric character.
03:29:33 <elliott_> I wish I was a tetrachromat.
03:29:38 <Bike> mantis shrimp are kinda crappy at color vision, in a sense http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/01/23/the-mantis-shrimp-sees-like-a-satellite/
03:31:12 <Bike> incidentally i didn't know 15 nm was that much of a difference
03:39:03 <Sgeo> So, a video I saw explaining the Scottish independence thing said that the 12th doctor was against. Is he talking about the character (who has made jokes?), or has Peter Capaldi actually said something? Googling wasn't so helpful
03:40:54 <Bike> the twelfth doctor pissed on a saltire in Restoration of the Daleks
03:48:23 <elliott_> peter capaldi *is* doctor who, sgeo.
03:58:25 <coppro> ^
03:58:34 <coppro> also, I am not caught up :(
03:58:42 <coppro> copumpkin: finally you admit it
03:58:49 <coppro> now I know what the dual of pumpkin is
03:59:40 <Sgeo> And what the dual of ppro is
04:01:00 <AndoDaan> and the dual of 'ke' is.
04:01:07 <AndoDaan> what the*
04:02:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Puzzlang]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40483&oldid=40478 * Imaginer1 * (-10) 
04:03:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40484&oldid=40443 * Imaginer1 * (+74) 
04:03:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40485&oldid=40484 * Imaginer1 * (+17) 
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04:11:55 <coppro> Sgeo: haven't figured it out yet
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07:41:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seribund]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40486 * Keymaker * (+2243) Added a new language: Seribund.
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07:48:57 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gOie?sh   that's the bashiest bash script I've ever written
07:52:45 <elliott_> fizzie: can't you write that as <foo while ...?
07:53:06 <elliott_> also, don't need the quotes around variables with [[ ... ]], I think.
07:53:33 <elliott_> especially when you're passing things to echo unquoted :p
07:56:14 <fizzie> The "<foo while ..." has always looked strange to me, but I guess it's legal, and might even be "good bash style", whatever that is.
07:57:11 <shachaf> Why would you not use quotes around variables in bash ever?
07:57:53 <fizzie> I tried to do the loops as  nl -v 0 warriors.idx | while ...  but that ran into some problems with the coproc fd's, probably because the pipeline gets a subshell.
07:59:59 <shachaf> OK, apparently [[ is magic.
08:01:18 <shachaf> You can also use cat f | while ... if that looks less strange to you.
08:01:43 <shachaf> People say not to do it but usually they're silly.
08:01:44 <fizzie> As I said, that ran into some fd-vs-subshell problems.
08:02:42 <fizzie> Fun fact: current breakdown.txt has flipped sieve/kettle results in the <<>> part in approximately pseudorandom-ish way. (All even programs in "hill ID" order are flipped, but that's not visible in the breakdown because it's sorted by name.)
08:02:50 <elliott_> fizzie: it feels weird to wait until the end of the loop to find out what it's processing data in.
08:03:01 <elliott_> foreach x { ... } in xs
08:03:15 <fizzie> That's admittedly a true.
08:03:30 <elliott_> also, you may be the first person to actually use the sieve and kettle terminology.
08:04:35 <fizzie> I have to check the wiki every time to figure out which one was sieve and which one kettle.
08:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Keymaker]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40487&oldid=38938 * Keymaker * (+87) Updating.
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10:15:19 <mroman_> nortti, Taneb: http://eso.mroman.ch/ESOSC/s/2014-3/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.pdf
10:15:58 <mroman_> oh. Figure 1.1 caption is wrong though
10:16:39 <nortti> no newline translation for ','?
10:17:38 <nortti> also, as it reads a character (not a byte), what happens to unicode codepoints above 255?
10:19:30 <mroman_> hm
10:20:02 <mroman_> there's newline translation for ,
10:21:03 <mroman_> I.e. on windows for \r\n a , instructions needs to buffer
10:21:09 <mroman_> because it has to translate \r\n to \n
10:21:12 <mroman_> where \n = 10
10:21:44 <mroman_> hm.
10:22:11 <mroman_> I guess we need a #CHARSET utf8 or something
10:22:44 <int-e> hmm, it says nothing on EOF handling
10:24:29 <int-e> ok, not nothing, since there are related language options, but the description of , is silent on the topic
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10:30:20 <mroman_> " If a newline is read by a \textit{,} instruction the current cell's value must be set to 10. On some plattforms (such as windows) this may require
10:30:23 <mroman_> to consume or write two or more characters. "
10:33:02 <mroman_> it's right there :)
10:33:15 <mroman_> Shall I write it clearer?
10:34:43 <mroman_> hm. is UNICODE  necessary if we have #CHARSET utf8?
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13:55:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Puzzlang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40488&oldid=40483 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Implementation */ grm
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14:09:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40489&oldid=40428 * Imaginer1 * (+175) Added a compiler and cat programs
14:10:36 <nortti> mroman_: I'd say no, as utf-8 can be handled per-byte basis, while UNICODE set the system to work on codepoints. so, UNICODE should be separate from charset selection
14:11:52 <mroman_> well
14:12:05 <mroman_> there's no point setting #CHARSET utf8 if you write/read bytes
14:12:31 <mroman_> or is there?
14:12:49 <mroman_> I mean what's the point of setting #CHARSET utf8 if you have to do encoding/decoding yourself?
14:21:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40490&oldid=40420 * Imaginer1 * (+61) Added Bitoven; put fish in its proper alphabetical location
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14:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40491&oldid=40489 * Imaginer1 * (+4) Forgot registers are initialized at zero- fixed cat programs
14:52:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40492&oldid=40491 * Imaginer1 * (+167) 
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15:18:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40493&oldid=40492 * Imaginer1 * (+1720) Adding image and description of how to parse from music
15:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Imaginer1 *  uploaded "[[File:Bitoven catprog image.png]]": A Bitoven program, colorized to show different sections.
15:20:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40495&oldid=40493 * Imaginer1 * (-2) 
15:21:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40496&oldid=40495 * Imaginer1 * (+13) 
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15:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40497&oldid=40490 * Imaginer1 * (+80) /* Bitoven */
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16:02:02 <ais523> fizzie: what's the progress on the BF Joust bot like? I've written tons of programs over the last couple of days
16:02:13 <ais523> well, a bugfix to preparation, plus three more, which aren't as good but are still pretty good
16:06:24 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust adumb >>>(+)*64<(-)*16>>--->+++>------>>>([-]>)*21
16:06:25 <zemhill> AndoDaan~adumb: points -24.90, score 12.72/100, rank 47/47
16:06:50 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust adumb >>>(+)*64<(-)*16>>--->+++>------>>>([-]>)*28
16:06:51 <zemhill> AndoDaan~adumb: points -24.90, score 12.72/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
16:07:39 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust adumb >>>>>(+)*37<(-)*11>>--->+++>------>([-]>)*28
16:07:39 <zemhill> AndoDaan~adumb: points -25.52, score 12.06/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
16:08:01 <AndoDaan> stupid game.
16:14:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Puzzlang]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40498&oldid=33305 * Imaginer1 * (+133) 
16:14:50 <elliott_> ais523: the hill seems to work fine
16:15:06 <ais523> ooh, it's working
16:16:48 <ais523> !help
16:16:53 <ais523> is the hill online?
16:18:08 <mroman_> I'll make my own hill
16:18:12 <mroman_> with black jack and hookers.
16:18:43 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bfjoust
16:18:46 <zemhill> ais523~preparation: points 22.67, score 100.00/100, rank 1/47
16:18:52 <ais523> 1/47
16:19:00 <ais523> OK, I can describe it on the wiki now :-)
16:19:01 <AndoDaan> wow
16:19:12 <ais523> AndoDaan: I have spent /months/ working on that program
16:19:20 <ais523> !bfjoust monolith http://nethack4.org/esolangs/monolith.bfjoust
16:19:21 <zemhill> ais523~monolith: points 22.67, score 100.00/100, rank 1/47
16:19:26 <ais523> oh wow
16:19:43 <ais523> I didn't expect that to come #1, I thought it'd be more like #2 or #3
16:20:12 <ais523> I originally wrote it based on wondering what sort of program would beat preparation
16:20:17 <ais523> the other two can't do nearly that well, surely
16:20:27 <ais523> !bfjoust growth http://nethack4.org/esolangs/growth.bfjoust
16:20:27 <zemhill> ais523~growth: points 16.31, score 77.02/100, rank 5/47
16:20:42 <ais523> !bfjoust hippo_ballerina http://nethack4.org/esolangs/hippo_ballerina.bfjoust
16:20:42 <zemhill> ais523~hippo_ballerina: points 2.14, score 39.82/100, rank 12/47
16:20:45 <ais523> that's more reasonable
16:21:13 <AndoDaan> monolith isn't even that big.
16:21:43 <elliott_> !help
16:21:46 <elliott_> hm
16:21:52 <ais523> it's probably a one-liner, indeed
16:21:54 <elliott_> !bfjoust
16:21:54 <zemhill> elliott_: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
16:21:59 <elliott_> ais523: that has the breakdown and report and stuff
16:22:03 <ais523> !bfjoust monolith (>+)*4 (>--)*4 ((-)*5<)*4  ((+)*6<)*3  (+)*5  (>)*7 ((-)*20<)*4 ((+)*20<)*3 (+)*20 (>)*7 ((-)*20<)*4 ((+)*20<)*4 (+)*50 (>)*10 (>[(-)*4([+{[.---]}][.-[.-]]>(-)*12)%3000][..++-----[..++-----]])*21
16:22:03 <zemhill> ais523~monolith: points 21.33, score 95.39/100, rank 2/47 (change: --)
16:22:11 <elliott_> wow
16:22:17 <elliott_> programs that small are viable again?
16:22:28 <ais523> elliott_: it /shouldn't/ be viable
16:22:31 <ais523> it just sets eight decoys then rushes
16:22:34 <ais523> that's all it is
16:22:37 <elliott_> haha
16:22:51 <elliott_> the hill finally got advanced enough to not defend against simple programs?
16:22:57 <ais523> I wrote it when I realised "well, a program should beat preparation if it sets at least eight decoys"
16:22:58 <AndoDaan> what does '%' do again?
16:23:05 <ais523> AndoDaan: it's used to abbreviate nested programs
16:23:17 <ais523> (a{b}c)%n is the same as (a)*n b (c)*b
16:23:20 <ais523> *(c)*n
16:23:27 <elliott_> ais523: btw, did you deliberately nerf it down to #2?
16:23:28 <ais523> except you're allowed to open brackets in a and close them in c
16:23:29 <AndoDaan> right. ty
16:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bueue]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40499&oldid=35501 * Imaginer1 * (+93) 
16:23:42 <ais523> elliott_: no, it's just less good against hippo_ballerina and growth than preparation is
16:23:45 <elliott_> ah
16:24:16 <elliott_> I wonder if the hill should have a limit to the number of programs on one nick
16:24:24 <elliott_> or results for your programs against each other shouldn't count, or something
16:24:30 <ais523> not if there's no abuse and the programs are sufficiently different
16:24:36 <elliott_> the effect of people's multiple warriors fighting against themselves is kinda weird.
16:24:43 <ais523> one thing I like about BF Joust is that I can compete against myself effectively indefinitely
16:24:47 <elliott_> especially when added in quick succession
16:24:49 <elliott_> heh
16:25:15 <ais523> elliott_: it's not like that, I basically just looked for a bunch of new strategies
16:25:16 <elliott_> ais523: you have both ais523_preparation and ais523~preparation there now, though
16:25:22 <elliott_> and presumably can't do anything about the former
16:25:25 <elliott_> that's not quite ideal
16:25:26 <ais523> elliott_: well I can't delete the old one
16:25:37 <ais523> the new one is better, and I would gladly delete the old one if I were able
16:25:43 <elliott_> fizzie: can you rename nick_warrior to nick~warrior so nick adding a new version of warrior doesn't leave the old one around?
16:26:11 <ais523> and get rid of the old preparation
16:26:21 <ais523> especially because it beats the new preparation ;-)
16:26:30 <ais523> (I don't test versions of a program against each other)
16:28:31 <ais523> elliott_: anyway, there's no way that monolith should beat something like space_hotel
16:28:36 <ais523> and in fact, it doesn't beat space_hotel
16:29:16 <ais523> but the reason it works is that I've got better at clear loops
16:29:29 <ais523> most of the theory of clear loops was worked out before programs set tons of decoys
16:30:04 <ais523> if you know for sure that your opponent's set a load of large decoys, you may as well just use a tiny or absent offset
16:30:18 <ais523> because against a large decoy, an offset's cost is equal to three times the value of the offset
16:31:16 <elliott_> right
16:31:37 <elliott_> wait, why three?
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16:33:06 <callforjudgement> [17:32] <ais523> elliott_: it takes you one cycle to set each value of the offset, then two to clear the value you just set
16:33:07 <callforjudgement> [17:32] <ais523> assuming a two-cycle clear
16:34:18 <elliott_> callforjudgement: well, okay, s/against a large decoy/against a large decoy or the flag/, then
16:34:25 <elliott_> I thought you meant it was something inherent about decoys which sounded weird.
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16:34:37 <ais523> elliott_: oh, right, yes
16:34:54 <ais523> the whole point of decoys is that they look the same as flags
16:34:57 <elliott_> a large decoy or the flag or the debris of a computation :p
16:35:06 <elliott_> ais523: right, I thought maybe the 3* was assuming 3 decoys or something.
16:35:42 <ais523> elliott_: almost all times I've used the tape for computation, it ends up at 0 :P
16:44:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bueue]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40500&oldid=35504 * Imaginer1 * (+286) 
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16:51:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bueue]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40501&oldid=40500 * Imaginer1 * (+148) 
16:51:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bueue]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40502&oldid=40501 * Imaginer1 * (+71) 
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17:09:05 <mroman_> what's this "by whom" wikipedia?
17:09:36 <mroman_> Golfing languages like GolfScript and Flogscript are generally considered[by whom?] to be Esoteric programming languages as useful applications other than for code golfing are very limited due to their limitations on overall speed, readability and function[citation needed]
17:09:57 <mroman_> considered by the golfing community?
17:10:06 <mroman_> but that be as vague.
17:10:34 <AndoDaan> Who else is there?
17:10:49 <mroman_> I mean
17:10:53 <mroman_> it has an article on esolangs.org
17:11:01 <mroman_> that should be enough "evidence" of it being esoteric
17:11:59 <AndoDaan> Are all golfing languages esoteric?
17:12:28 <mroman_> well
17:12:35 <mroman_> I wouldn't call them esoteric
17:12:40 <mroman_> I'd call them golfing languages :)
17:13:18 <mroman_> esoteric is always subjective to some extent
17:13:54 <AndoDaan> true enough
17:14:59 <Melvar> ais523: Are bfjoust programs required to have wacky names?
17:15:10 <ais523> Melvar: no, I used to call them attack1, attack2, etc.
17:15:24 <ais523> but I prefer to give them names that makes it easy for me to remember what they do
17:15:34 <ais523> if you've ever looked at growth in a debugger, it should be clear why it has that name
17:16:04 <Melvar> I see. So they’re useful mnemonics for the author.
17:16:11 <ais523> yes
17:16:13 <Melvar> They just *look* random.
17:16:53 <ais523> well, I mean, calling a program "hippo_ballerina" is not obviously very descriptive, but it works better if you know it's a program that takes care not to disturb enemy tripwires until it finds a large decoy, then goes and tramples over them all anyway
17:17:34 * Melvar nods.
17:18:42 <AndoDaan> what does '.' do in a bfjoust program?
17:19:26 <ais523> waits one turn
17:20:02 <ais523> the original use of the command was to throw off the timing of opposing programs that relied on you having a consistent timing
17:20:06 <ais523> but various other uses have been discovered
17:20:09 <AndoDaan> no weird outputting? okay
17:21:08 <AndoDaan> there's so much more to jousting than one would at 1st assume
17:21:20 <ais523> AndoDaan: have you seen the strategy page?
17:21:23 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
17:22:38 <AndoDaan> Yeah. It went way over my head the 1st time i read them
17:23:11 <AndoDaan> but understanding it a little more each time
17:23:36 <ais523> anyway, I'm really proud of growth, because it accomplishes something I've been trying to do for /ages/
17:24:30 <ais523> which is to exploit the fact that most programs do a rule of nine
17:24:41 <ais523> sadly, it comes a year or too two late, because it's no longer the case that most programs do a rule of nine
17:24:55 <ais523> <ais523> Exploiting the fact that an opponent uses this tactic is difficult or impossible; in theory it can give away information about the tape length, but it's too easily confused by decoys and similar tactics.
17:26:35 <ais523> come to think of it, I'm a bit sad that monolith came #1, because it has such a boring explanation
17:26:42 <ais523> on the plus side, though, I can paste the program directly into the wiki
17:28:12 <ais523> let me write about the probabilistic lock, though
17:28:16 <ais523> it's an innovation I'm really pleased with
17:28:24 <ais523> and the main idea behind preparation
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17:33:23 <Sgeo> Aww, the ad is no longer available
17:34:14 <PiRSquared> Where is EgoBot?
17:34:42 <ais523> hasn't been here for ages; this is why zemhill took over the jousting
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17:37:02 <PiRSquared> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization#Skip_If_Zero_expansion_.284_instructions.29 is this really Turing complete?
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17:40:31 <FreeFull> https://github.com/LoganKelly/LOLTracer
17:41:25 <fizzie> ais523: The results are in http://zem.fi/bfjoust/report.txt and http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown.txt if nobody said that yet. I'm kinda-sorta working on a proper web page.
17:41:34 <fizzie> Renaming the old _s to ~s sounds like the best idea.
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17:42:57 <fizzie> I'll give it the old college try.
17:43:02 <fizzie> (Whatever that means.)
17:43:48 <ais523> fizzie: just get rid of the old preparation, the new one is better
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17:47:20 <fizzie> !bfjoust test <
17:47:21 <zemhill> fizzie~test: points -46.00, score 0.00/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
17:47:47 <fizzie> I think I got it right.
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17:54:24 <fizzie> Oh, and the programs are in http://zem.fi/git/?p=hill
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17:59:12 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust adumb (>+>-)*4<<(+)*64<[]>>>(>[>((+)*20[-]>)*21])*21
17:59:13 <zemhill> AndoDaan~adumb: points -32.31, score 5.38/100, rank 47/47
18:01:55 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust adumb (>+>-)*4<<(+)*64<[]<<<<<(+)*57>>>(>[>((+)*20[-]>)*21])*21
18:01:55 <zemhill> AndoDaan~adumb: points -36.19, score 3.61/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
18:02:10 <AndoDaan> worse and worse
18:02:55 <ais523> AndoDaan: you're basically waiting for the opponent, and then, umm
18:02:59 <ais523> adjusting your flag by 57 and rushing?
18:03:30 <ais523> the purpose of that code is basically just to give the opponent a large head start
18:05:16 <AndoDaan> It's so crazy, it just might work...?
18:05:26 <AndoDaan> :\
18:06:51 <AndoDaan> but yeah, I'm throwing stuff together to see what it looks like.
18:13:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40503&oldid=40448 * Zerk * (+30) /* External resources */
18:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40504&oldid=40503 * Zerk * (+0) /* External resources */
18:17:18 <elliott_> AndoDaan: try egojsout for testing warriors
18:17:23 <elliott_> it's a good way to visualise things
18:17:50 <AndoDaan> I am, I am. 
18:18:19 <AndoDaan> But I'm not sure which bot I should test my bot.
18:18:25 <AndoDaan> against.
18:18:34 <ais523> "simple" is a good start
18:18:51 <AndoDaan> seems logical.
18:25:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust strategies]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40505&oldid=39754 * Ais523 * (+2313) /* Probabilistic lock */ new section
18:25:34 <ais523> behold, the secret to preparation
18:25:36 <ais523> well, one of them
18:26:11 <ais523> haven't added a trace-and-animation yet
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18:41:07 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust AndoDaando_trieste (>+>-)*4<<(+)*64><<<(--)*32<<<<(+)*32>(>)*9(>[>((+)*20[-]>)*21])*21
18:41:08 <zemhill> AndoDaan~AndoDaando_trieste: points -18.40, score 12.58/100, rank 47/47
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19:28:21 <ais523> I'm busy documenting monolith and preparation
19:28:23 <ais523> monolith was much easier :-)
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20:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust strategies]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40506&oldid=40505 * Ais523 * (+11616) /* 2014 */ yay, this section isn't empty any more; I topped the hill twice on the same day
20:05:48 <ais523> OK, if you wanted to know how preparation (or monolith) works, there you go
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20:08:21 <ais523> btw, BF Joust players: there's a strategy I've noticed lots of people using, but it isn't documented/named yet
20:08:33 <ais523> which is to jump a distance past the end of your poke depending on how far you moved
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20:39:25 <AndoDaan> Finally, a program from 2014. That's a huge entry, @ais523
20:39:47 <ais523> AndoDaan: I've been working on it (on and off) for like nine months
20:41:12 <AndoDaan> So, what comes next?
20:41:20 <ais523> well, I've submitted a few others too
20:41:28 <ais523> hopefully someone will dethrone preparation before long
20:41:39 <ais523> it has plenty of exploitable weaknesses, and that message should help people identify them
20:41:57 <AndoDaan> ...by copying and slightly changing your code...
20:42:24 <ais523> that's normally considered bad style
20:43:02 <AndoDaan> ..by copying and replacing all the + with - in your code...
20:43:31 <AndoDaan> I kid.
20:45:44 <ais523> AndoDaan: that's actually done automatically by the hill bots nowadays
20:45:58 <ais523> it combines the score from the regular run, and a run with + and - swapped
20:45:58 <AndoDaan> yeah, the polarity
20:46:01 <AndoDaan> thingy
20:46:17 <ais523> they are called "sieve" and "kettle" for reasons I don't fully understand, but elliott_ insisted
20:46:39 <AndoDaan> hmm
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20:47:25 <AndoDaan> '+' = sieve, '-'=kettle
20:47:27 <AndoDaan> ?
20:47:52 <ais523> no, sieve = "without swapping + and -"
20:47:57 <ais523> kettle = "swapping + and - in one program"
20:47:59 <AndoDaan> or is it when the polarity is reversed that it's called kettle and whne normal...
20:48:06 <ais523> (swapping in both is the same as not swapping in either)
20:49:07 -!- haruka has joined.
20:49:14 <haruka> hi
20:49:18 <ais523> hi
20:49:21 <boily> hi
20:49:25 <AndoDaan> hi
20:49:28 <myname> hi
20:49:47 <ais523> how many "hi"s do we need before they stop being greetings, and start being "hi"s of disapproval?
20:49:52 <ais523> (at the "hi" spam)
20:49:57 <ais523> `welcome haruka
20:49:58 <HackEgo> haruka: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:50:01 <haruka> i like it ^^
20:50:09 <haruka> finally some talking active people
20:50:09 <myname> since when don't we do relcomes?
20:50:24 <haruka> or maybe just bots? xD
20:50:28 <ais523> myname: since I got to them first
20:50:32 <myname> okay
20:50:35 <ais523> and no, nobody speaking there is a bot but HackEgo
20:50:43 <myname> haruka: there are some bots here, too
20:50:44 <ais523> I've always been in favour of the welcome that is actually useful
20:50:58 <haruka> ^^ 
20:50:58 <b_jonas> hi
20:51:00 <ais523> rather than all the variants that have no obvious reason for existence
20:51:22 <ais523> `relcome isn't so bad, though; I tried to get it usable because it's the one everyone else uses
20:51:23 <HackEgo> ​isn't: so: bad,: though;: I: tried: to: get: it: usable: because: it's: the: one: everyone: else: uses: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: 
20:51:47 <b_jonas> uh
20:51:49 <myname> hahahaha
20:51:55 <boily> haruka: we've got all kind of bots (even a got), someone we still don't know if it's a bot or a human, and well... a bunch of humans. but don't trust them, they tend to make less sense than the bots.
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20:52:24 <myname> boily: who's the one in question of being a bot?
20:52:25 <AndoDaan> !AmIABot
20:52:26 <haruka> ^^ i think i like it here
20:52:41 <ais523> hi evalj!
20:52:42 <AndoDaan> AndoDaan: yes.
20:52:43 <AndoDaan> shit
20:52:44 <b_jonas> [ ('no';'yes'){~*#'are you a bot?'
20:52:50 <b_jonas> ] ('no';'yes'){~*#'are you a bot?'
20:52:50 <evalj> b_jonas: +---+
20:52:50 <evalj> b_jonas: |yes|
20:52:50 <evalj> b_jonas: +---+
20:52:51 <ais523> unfortunately I don't know J, or I'd give you some J to evaluate
20:53:00 <b_jonas> ] ('no';'yes'){::~*#'are you a bot?'
20:53:00 <evalj> b_jonas: yes
20:53:03 <AndoDaan> I hate J
20:53:11 <myname> i love J
20:53:16 <haruka> at least, when the bot has a talkin script, i'm happy :D
20:53:18 <PiRSquared> `quote solidity
20:53:19 <HackEgo> 241) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
20:53:19 <myname> i can't write it, though
20:53:24 <haruka> just need someone to babbly about crap
20:53:35 <ais523> haruka: you need to talk to fungot about that
20:53:37 <haruka> hi myname ^^
20:53:40 <boily> myname: myndzi. I believe it's a bot.
20:53:44 <ais523> but it isn't here
20:53:50 <ais523> fizzie: fungot's down
20:53:58 <ais523> boily: myndzi is both a person and a bot, who use the same account
20:54:03 <myname> not fungot
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20:54:17 <ais523> which can cause confusion sometimes
20:56:29 <b_jonas> \o/ 
20:56:29 <myndzi>   |
20:56:29 <myndzi>   >\
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20:57:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40507&oldid=40504 * Zerk * (+241) /* Strings */ +quine
21:00:57 <fizzie> Oh.
21:01:21 -!- fungot has joined.
21:01:27 <boily> fungot: hello fungot!
21:01:28 <fungot> boily: i don't remember what is the 90k javascript file... for? :) where would you see some multiplications? who would have thought
21:01:49 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, are you rewriting yourself in javascript? 
21:01:49 <fungot> fizzie: was my fnord idea, not something that is easy for unlambda to simulate unlambda: just construct a tree where each node has it's own lisp intepreter.
21:02:04 <fizzie> That's vaguely unsettling.
21:02:58 <ais523> that almost seems like the sort of idea that someone would seriously suggest in #esoteric
21:03:07 <b_jonas> [ ,(?18 4$4){"0 1"1 2]4 4$'_\(|oooO|)/_    '
21:03:09 <ais523> an unlambda self-compiler via a tree with a lisp interpreter at each node
21:03:12 <b_jonas> ] ,(?18 4$4){"0 1"1 2]4 4$'_\(|oooO|)/_    '
21:03:12 <evalj> b_jonas: \o/ (o| (o_ (o| \o| (o| (o) |O) |o| \O) (O_ (o_ \o| \o| _o/ |o) \o| |o) 
21:03:37 <ais523> if I didn't realise that the idea was generated entirely at random, I'd try to work out the details
21:04:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:04:19 <b_jonas> ] ,(?10 4$4){"0 1"1 2]4 4$'_\(|oooO|)/_    '
21:04:20 <evalj> b_jonas: |o/ |O/ \O) (o| (o/ _O/ |o_ _O| |o_ (o| 
21:04:20 <myndzi>          |                       |       |
21:04:20 <myndzi>          >\                      |\     /`\
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21:04:27 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
21:04:28 <b_jonas> ] ,(?10 4$4){"0 1"1 2]4 4$'_\(|oooo|)/_    '
21:04:29 <evalj> b_jonas: _o| |o_ \o_ |o_ \o_ (o_ (o_ (o_ \o) \o) 
21:04:29 <myndzi>          |   |   |   |   |
21:04:29 <myndzi>         /'\  |\ /'\ /`\ /|
21:04:36 <ais523> ^style
21:04:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:04:42 <b_jonas> ] ,(?10 4$4){"0 1"1 2]4 4$'_-\|oooo|/-_    '
21:04:42 <evalj> b_jonas: -o/ _o/ \o| \o- _o_ -o- |o| \o_ \o_ \o/ 
21:04:42 <myndzi>          ¦   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
21:04:42 <myndzi>         ´¸¨ /<   >\ /<  /´\ /|  /'\  >\ /<  /|
21:04:43 <ais523> ah, the generally best one
21:04:47 <ais523> ^style alice
21:04:48 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
21:04:59 <ais523> although I like setting fungot to the weirder ones sometimes
21:05:00 <fungot> ais523: " how ever would oo do a garden without one? we make each bed three mouses and a half exactly.'
21:05:01 <b_jonas> whoa, it uses "¦" for the body sometimes?
21:05:37 <Bike> maybe it indicates jumping up and down.
21:05:39 * boily stares at the broken bar. “something very fishy and wrong is going on here...”
21:05:40 <Bike> or an exposed spine.
21:11:20 <b_jonas> ] ,(' ',{.,'o',{:)"1(?12 2$5){"0 1"$2 5$'_-|\<>/'
21:11:20 <evalj> b_jonas:  |o| \o- <o> <o_ _o/ _o> _o- -o/ \o_ -o| |o/ <o/
21:11:20 <myndzi>           |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
21:11:21 <myndzi>           >\ /|   >\ /`\ /^\  >\ /<  /|   |\  >\  >\ /´\
21:12:00 <b_jonas> ] ,.(' ',{.,'o',{:)"1(?5 12 2$5){"0 1"$2 5$'_-|\<>/'
21:12:00 <evalj> b_jonas:  \o- <o_ -o> \o- <o_ _o_ _o| <o| _o_ \o_ |o| _o|
21:12:00 <evalj> b_jonas:  _o> |o- \o/ _o| |o- -o> -o_ |o- \o_ _o- |o> \o>
21:12:00 <evalj> b_jonas:  -o/ _o| \o- -o| <o- _o/ \o- <o> _o- |o/ -o| _o|
21:12:00 <evalj> b_jonas:  \o/ \o/ _o| _o| |o> -o| -o/ <o- -o_ |o/ <o/ <o-
21:12:00 <evalj> b_jonas:  -o> \o- _o| |o_ _o_ _o/ |o/ |o> |o/ <o| -o/ <o|
21:12:00 <myndzi>           |   |   |   |   |   |   ¦   |   |   |   |   |
21:12:01 <myndzi>          /<   >\ /´\ /<  /|  /<  ´¸¨ /|   |\ /<   >\ /´\
21:12:01 <myndzi>           |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
21:12:01 <myndzi>           |\  >\ /|   |\ /|   >\ /<   >\ /|  /|  /`\  >\
21:12:27 <coppro> oh my
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21:19:58 <fizzie> !bfjoust force_report_update (><)*-1
21:19:58 <zemhill> fizzie~force_report_update: points -33.71, score 4.35/100, rank 47/47
21:20:57 <ais523> fizzie: that's basically nop.bfjoust
21:21:00 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:24:12 <fizzie> I put the beginnings of a real website at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ but it's missing most of the stuff.
21:28:31 <elliott_> I see haruka received the traditional overwhelming #esoteric welcome :p
21:29:05 <ion> the hashtag esoteric welcome
21:30:31 <ais523> elliott_: in case you missed the BF Joust activity, I came first with two different programs
21:30:46 <mroman_> PCLMULLDDQUNORVCVTUNORDPS
21:30:56 <mroman_> I like this opcode .
21:31:18 <elliott_> ais523: o_o
21:31:20 <ais523> I wonder if fizzie can make a `words equivalent for CPU opcodes
21:31:24 <elliott_> ais523: can we just declare you as having won bfjoust
21:31:34 <ais523> elliott_: preparation finally winning wasn't much of a surprise, given how I was working on it for nine months
21:31:37 <fizzie> ais523: I already have a web page for that.
21:31:40 <ais523> monolith winning, though, was
21:31:42 <ais523> given that it's a one-liner
21:31:50 <elliott_> ais523: oh, I thought you meant two new ones
21:31:58 <fizzie> ais523: http://zem.fi/2014-04-05-opquiz
21:31:59 <ais523> [17:22] <ais523> !bfjoust monolith (>+)*4 (>--)*4 ((-)*5<)*4  ((+)*6<)*3  (+)*5  (>)*7 ((-)*20<)*4 ((+)*20<)*3 (+)*20 (>)*7 ((-)*20<)*4 ((+)*20<)*4 (+)*50 (>)*10 (>[(-)*4([+{[.---]}][.-[.-]]>(-)*12)%3000][..++-----[..++-----]])*21
21:32:00 <ais523> [17:22] <zemhill> ais523~monolith: points 21.33, score 95.39/100, rank 2/47 (change: --)
21:32:01 <elliott_> ais523: I talked about preparation and monolith with you... right after you submitted them... I was there
21:32:06 <ais523> oh right
21:32:14 <ais523> I forget who's who
21:32:24 <ais523> I'm not sure I can get a radically different program up to #1 in the near future, thoguh
21:32:27 <elliott_> easy mistake to make. there's nothing unusual about me
21:33:03 <ais523> I feel good about growth, but it's not near #1 standard unless I have some new ideas
21:33:08 <ais523> it is very fun to watch in egojsout, though
21:33:12 <ais523> it doesn't look anything like any of the other programs
21:33:59 <ais523> oh good, it does beat simple
21:34:02 <ais523> I was worried it wouldn't
21:34:14 <ais523> simple not having an antishudder can completely screw up programs that attack the standard way of doing things
21:36:12 <ais523> oh wow, growth vs. simple is /beautiful/
21:36:17 <ais523> the strategy works perfectly
21:36:50 <ais523> here we go: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=28ec45e1b8d742586c4857371d07270e24b32d8f&r=700a65536df97b655acd5c8a6fd2fc3014b46148
21:38:19 <coppro> I want a visualiazer
21:38:25 <coppro> oh wait, there is one, nvm >_>
21:41:26 <coppro> whoa, how does growth fall off at length 19?
21:42:08 <ais523> coppro: bad decoy pattern clash
21:42:15 <ais523> it confuses a decoy for a clear attempt and runs off the end of the tape
21:42:28 <ais523> this sort of thing always seems to happen with sufficiently advanced programs
21:42:39 <elliott_> how to ruin bf joust with one rule change: tape wraps
21:42:55 <elliott_> how to ruin bf joust with one rule change: bignums
21:43:02 <ais523> bignums would be a lot worse
21:43:15 <ais523> in particular, (+)*100000 would be mathematically incapable of losing
21:43:42 <ais523> tape wrapping would at least be vaguely playable, especially because if you went past the enemy flag, you'd probably continue by clearing your own flag
21:43:48 <ais523> oh, wait
21:43:55 <ais523> you could just do < at the start of the program :-)
21:44:03 <ais523> still more playable than bignums, though
21:44:06 <coppro> make them diametrically opposed, presumably?
21:44:22 <ais523> that could work
21:44:42 <ais523> would also allow a strategy whereby you put a noticeable decoy pattern on the tape, then tried to wrap round and detect your own pattern after one wrap
21:44:46 <ais523> then you'd know how long the tape was
21:44:58 <coppro> yeah
21:45:12 <coppro> the issue I think would be that simple naive programs would have a big advantage in terms of distance
21:45:22 <coppro> a program that tries to deal with both fronts has to spend time running back and forth
21:45:42 <ais523> coppro: that's true of standard BF Joust too
21:45:56 <ais523> actually, it's the reason I reduced the tape length to 10-30, it was previously well over 100
21:46:03 <ais523> it's so that defence programs actually had time to run back and forth
21:46:10 <ais523> also it removes a whole load of boring midgame
21:46:36 <ais523> where people just (>)*100 past the cells that can't possibly be the enemy flag and aren't useful for decoys because the enemy knows it can't possibly be your flag either
21:48:17 <elliott_> I wonder if 30 is too long.
21:49:07 <ais523> I don't think so, basically because there's a sharp distinction at 18
21:49:15 <ais523> and you want approximately the same number of cells both sides
21:49:28 <ais523> (18 is the point at which you don't get decoy setup collisions)
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22:08:19 <ais523> or to put it another way, preparation starts attacking at cell 18 if the opponent hasn't actually interfered by then
22:08:27 <ais523> nor shown signs of being defensive
22:12:52 <elliott_> clearly 36 then :p
22:18:33 <ais523> elliott_: also the fact that the tape can go longer than 28 has been relevant for some of my programs
22:18:53 <elliott_> why 28?
22:18:57 <ais523> that's the point at which a program that's complex and overengineered as the sort of stuff I typically write is at risk of running out of time
22:19:55 <Bike> need to see generalized bfjoust clearly
22:20:09 <fizzie> Thoughts on how to add the per-match detailed <<<>>> stuff in http://zem.fi/bfjoust/matrix/ (if that even works for anyone else)? I was thinking of making each cell a link to a local EgoJSout view (the "Games" tab), perhaps that'd be enough.
22:21:00 <elliott_> fizzie: ideally the interpreter would produce the relevant execution traces when running the hill
22:21:05 <elliott_> and then they could be animated with JS?
22:21:10 <elliott_> that's work compared to jsut linking to egojsout though.
22:21:18 <elliott_> *just
22:21:24 <fizzie> The execution traces would be equivalent, anyway.
22:21:37 <elliott_> it'd be nice if the row/column got highlighted, crosshair-style.
22:21:37 <fizzie> Modulo bugs, anyway.
22:21:41 <elliott_> the bold is a bit hard to keep track of.
22:21:58 <fizzie> That I can probably do. If I can figure out how the CSS works for columns.
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22:22:15 <callforjudgement> I guess it was my connectino
22:22:20 <fizzie> Re variants, there's the "corewarsy" one with a longer (wrapping) tape, and the programs' flags positioned randomly.
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22:22:44 <elliott_> fizzie: http://quirksmode.org/css/css2/columns.html
22:22:47 <ais523> fizzie: I take it that the brightness shows the winning margin?
22:22:53 <fizzie> ais523: Yes.
22:23:08 <ais523> might want to tooltip (HTML TITLE) the exact margin, or maybe even the breakdown
22:23:15 <elliott_> just start the table with a colgroup of cols
22:23:20 <elliott_> and then you can style those col elements
22:23:55 <elliott_> it'd be nice if the program names by themselves linked to the source code (maybe just load it up in egojsout with no right warrior?)
22:24:01 <elliott_> (none pizza with left warrior)
22:24:28 <elliott_> I like the colour shading.
22:25:19 <elliott_> what does x mean? draw?
22:26:17 <fizzie> Yes. Oh, right, it was '0' in report.txt.
22:26:26 <fizzie> I forgot, since a tie is X in the raw output.
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22:27:45 <ais523> fizzie: incidentally, I instrumented juiced to report the number of cycles and reason for each win/loss
22:27:53 <ais523> I use it to quickly get an idea of what programs are doing
22:28:09 <ais523> because for something as complex as preparation, it's normally possible to tell which codepath it's in by when the match ends
22:29:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40508&oldid=40507 * Zerk * (-40) /* Strings */ quine tweak
22:29:41 <fizzie> Made the "Scores" page program names links to the source code.
22:41:40 <ais523> also, BF Joust comment grammar is really weird
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22:41:50 <ais523> I've taken to using slashes as parentheses because all the beter characters are taken
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