00:00:26 <b_jonas> ] ,(' ',{.,'o',{:)"1(?12 2$5){"0 1"$2 5$'_-|\<>/'
00:00:27 <evalj> b_jonas: -o> |o> |o/ -o_ <o> -o/ <o| \o- -o- |o> |o/ <o|
00:00:27 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | ¦ |
00:00:27 <myndzi> /| /^\ >\ /< /< /| >\ |\ /| >\ ´¸¨ /|
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00:15:23 <AndoDaan> So, which language should be picked to be featured next on the esolangs mainpage?
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00:23:09 <Sgeo> How about the 'I am bad at relationships and in a lot of pain' esolang
00:25:29 <AndoDaan> can't find it. I think you just made a cry for help.
00:26:01 <Sgeo> Just broke up this morning
00:26:31 <coppro> Sgeo: do you need someone to talk to?
00:26:45 <Sgeo> I've been talking to Sine a bit
00:27:42 <Sgeo> If it hurts so much, does it suggest I loved her even though I didn't think I did and I thought she liked me more than I liked her?
00:28:08 <Taneb> Maybe you liked being in a relationship
00:28:11 <Taneb> Maybe you feel guilty
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00:45:44 <madbr> I think I found a nice concept for a language
00:45:51 <madbr> something where you can do
00:46:03 <madbr> vect1[$i] += vect2[i]
00:46:22 <madbr> if $ appears the line is turned into a loop
00:46:31 <madbr> starting with the value 0
00:46:56 <madbr> for each iteration it checks that none of the subscript values go over the array size
00:47:13 <madbr> it can be compiled
00:47:40 <madbr> like, if you look at typical language usage there are LOTS of loops through arrays
00:47:49 <madbr> and the typical C++ formulation
00:48:17 <madbr> for(int i=0; i<vect1.size() && i<vect2.size(); i++)
00:48:26 <madbr> vect1[i] += vect2[i];
00:48:59 <myname> well, you could just make a preprocessor for any existing language
00:49:15 <madbr> same for java... in theory it has a foreach, in practice the formulation is so long that it's pointless
00:49:41 <madbr> myname : would be hard to do it in C++
00:49:52 <madbr> it would be some horrible hack
00:50:02 <myname> madbr: well, since c++ is already dirty as fuck, who cares?
00:51:16 <madbr> because it's reaching the breaking point where compexity increases exponentially with each new feature?
00:51:45 <madbr> also msvc will implement it wrong/differently from GCC and then you'll have to put ifdefs everywhere
00:52:42 <coppro> nah, this sounds like perl
00:53:35 <madbr> but perl is dynamic typed and can never run fast
00:53:45 <madbr> and also I think it just has an ordinary foreach
00:54:33 <madbr> java tends to force you to use horrible syntax for everything anways
00:54:49 <myname> and a horrble language
00:57:54 <madbr> like, this loops with only 1 extra character
00:58:26 <pikhq> Course, the C++ way of doing that is: valarray<int> arr1(vect1.begin(), vect1.size()), arr2(vect2.begin(), vect2.size()); arr1 += arr2; :P
00:58:48 <pikhq> (C++: because there's too many ways of doing it!)
00:58:58 <madbr> how does that even work
00:59:08 <pikhq> valarray has an overloaded operator+.
00:59:27 <madbr> valarray is what, boost?
00:59:37 <myname> isn't everything boost?
01:00:34 <coppro> actually, better is transform(vect1.begin(), vect1.end(), vect2.begin(), vect1.begin(), plus())
01:01:41 <madbr> those use so many charactors and crazy stuff
01:03:47 <madbr> pikhq: does valaray have a cast from std::vector
01:04:20 <pikhq> Doesn't appear to.
01:04:49 <coppro> Probably the biggest design mistake of C++ STL was the use of iterators rather than ranges
01:04:58 <coppro> there's been talk of correcting it, but who knows if that'll ever happen
01:05:44 <Taneb> Fun fact: I am not good at computers
01:06:01 <madbr> like, basically it has to use less characters than the first formulation (using .size() and explicit loops)
01:06:02 <myname> in haskell it'lö be zipWith (+) val1 val2
01:06:24 <madbr> any feature that uses more characters has no point
01:06:43 <madbr> haskell I'm sure has many other problems
01:07:16 <pikhq> Nah, Haskell is perfection, perfected.
01:07:24 <madbr> can haskell implement a filter?
01:07:44 <madbr> (in constructor) memory = 0;
01:08:59 <myname> well, haskell has a function called filter ...
01:09:01 <madbr> filter_buffer(float *array, int nb_values) { for(int i=0; i<nb_values; i++) { memory += (array[i] - memory) * 0.7f; array[i] = memory; } }
01:09:50 <madbr> filter_buffer can be called multiple times and the memory value has to be preserved from call to call
01:10:10 <madbr> myname : it's a common procedure in audio processing
01:10:14 <myname> i am trying to figure out what the addition actually does
01:10:46 <madbr> memory is moves 70% towards the value in array
01:11:14 <pikhq> So, uh: foldl (\x y-> (y - x) * 0.7) 0
01:11:23 <pikhq> Wait, no, that's not right.
01:11:31 <myname> sounds like something for scanl
01:11:42 <madbr> remember that you have to preserve the value
01:12:14 <pikhq> Yeah yeah yeah, return tuple, big fucking deal
01:12:14 <myname> easy, just return a tuple
01:13:49 <Taneb> :t scanl (\m a -> m + (a - m) * 0.7) 0
01:14:10 <Taneb> > scanl (\m a -> m + (a - m) * 0.7) 0 [1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4]
01:14:12 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.7,1.6099999999999999,1.183,1.7549000000000001,2.62647,1.487941,1.8463...
01:18:57 <oerjan> :t mapAccumL -- you may be looking for this
01:18:58 <lambdabot> (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
01:20:06 <oerjan> i think that's my favorite function which people rarely remember
01:20:13 <Sgeo> madbr: wonder if J is similar enough. If you use arrays then entire function uses can end up operating on it
01:21:26 <myname> is there something to make x into (x, x)?
01:21:27 <oerjan> although mostly people just jump straight to the State monad and call it a day.
01:21:58 <Taneb> myname, other than (\x->(x,x)) or maybe join (,)?
01:22:13 <myname> > mapAccumL (\m a -> (\x -> (x, x)) (m + (a - m) * 0.7)) 0 [1,2,3]
01:22:15 <lambdabot> (2.5829999999999997,[0.7,1.6099999999999999,2.5829999999999997])
01:26:03 <myname> although it's pretty stupid since the "preserved value" is always just the last element
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01:34:34 <oerjan> > flip runState 0 $ [1,2,3] & traverse %%~ \a -> id <%= \m -> m + (a - m) * 0.7
01:34:38 <lambdabot> ([0.7,1.6099999999999999,2.5829999999999997],2.5829999999999997)
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02:05:31 <zzo38> Do you know if Minuteman III nuclear missiles can accept the "AHC" command remotely?
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02:55:03 <zzo38> (An article in 2600 says this is the command to tell it to not receive any commands remotely during the next six hours.)
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03:09:49 <zzo38> Now I know when is the equinox.
03:10:51 <zzo38> In my timezone, the equinox is on 22nd
03:13:16 <AndoDaan> zzo38: you created flogscript, right?
03:13:46 <zzo38> Yes, although that was a while ago; there are a few mistakes but now I won't fix them since it would cause incompatibilities
03:14:54 <AndoDaan> Can I ask, what the core difference is between golfscript and flogscript?
03:16:03 <zzo38> FlogScript is probably slower, for one thing. However, there are other differences too; more commands, is completely sandboxed (cannot execute arbitrary PHP or Ruby codes), and a few other differences.
03:16:25 <Patashu> it's intended to be even better for golfing than flogscript
03:16:42 <zzo38> Patashu: And sometimes it is, but other times it isn't.
03:17:34 <AndoDaan> and now there's gs2 on the scene
03:17:43 <coppro> HQ9+ is the greatest golfing langugae
03:18:14 <zzo38> coppro: Only if you are trying to write specific programs, though.
03:18:41 <coppro> zzo38: what possible reason could you have to write any other kind of program?
03:19:40 <zzo38> coppro: In case 99 is too much beer and then you will get too much drunk, of course!
03:20:11 <coppro> reminds me to get around to my magnum opus
03:20:17 <coppro> 99 variations on the 99 bottles song
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03:46:40 <Sgeo> I don't know what I want, I hate decisions
03:49:32 <zzo38> Then you must learn what you want, if in fact you want anything.
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05:19:23 <Sgeo> Since Varsity has told us that fascination with Jellybabies is a "fetish", and we want to keep Nomicam a clean family game: The speaker shall once and once only go through the rules, changing every mention of the word "jelly baby" - in whatever grammatical form - into the word "sheep" - in the corresponding grammatical form.
05:36:38 <Sgeo> Is The Caves of Androzani a good introduction to classic Who?
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06:27:25 <J_Arcane> I can't remember the episode, sorry. I've mostly watched the original series piecemeal.
06:28:25 <J_Arcane> Starting with the 4th Doctor and just watching as many as you like is probably a good start, I should think. 4, 5, and 7 mostly got the best stories that survived the BBC Purge.
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06:44:14 <Sgeo> The Yes Scotland video I watched was deleted from YouTube
06:47:49 <zzo38> Did you nkow there is a politician in Germany with the actual name of German Hacker? I have a picture on the back of this issue of 2600.
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07:21:44 <mroman_> AndoDaan: although gs2 is "binary"
07:21:59 <mroman_> so not really intended for humans to program in it directly
07:23:29 <mroman_> AndoDaan: there's also Burlesque btw :P
07:23:41 <AndoDaan> yeah, I tried writing some code with XVI32 and the results
07:24:08 <AndoDaan> are different than when I enter the character equivelant
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07:24:24 <AndoDaan> (talking about gs2 in anarchy golf)
07:25:01 <AndoDaan> I think I like CJAM the most as a golf lang.
07:25:20 <AndoDaan> but anarchy golf doesn't take it yet.
07:28:35 <AndoDaan> I'm going to invent a language where I take every useful algorith that has ever been documented is assigned a number.
07:29:21 <AndoDaan> fibonacci sequence? source will:
07:29:31 <zzo38> And then what, shifted base 256?
07:30:23 <AndoDaan> if I don't get greedy with unicode
07:31:02 <zzo38> Variable-Length-Quantity, which is format used in MIDI files for delay amounts
07:31:27 <zzo38> You could even use UTF-8, although UTF-8 is limited to 36-bits and is not as efficient as VLQ.
07:36:43 <zzo38> UTF-8 should only be used for text with an extended ASCII character set having a lot of character codes (normally Unicode, but anything up to 36-bits is possible).
07:37:25 <zzo38> There is also a small-endian version of VLQ which is called "LEB128".
07:37:47 <zzo38> It is exactly the same as VLQ except that it is small-endian.
07:39:49 <AndoDaan> My lack of endian awareness is probably why I'm having trouble making my gs2 source work.
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08:13:54 <mroman_> AndoDaan: gs2 has btw a fibonacci built-in
08:14:38 <mroman_> which I think is rather... not so pleasant
08:14:40 <AndoDaan> And hello world, and 99 bottles
08:15:04 <mroman_> I mean if somebody looks at the ranking
08:15:15 <mroman_> and sees "WOW. HE CAN DO FIB IN 1 BYTE????!?"
08:15:48 <mroman_> I think it's ok to add builtins for certain sub-problems of problems
08:16:01 <mroman_> as long as those builtins are of "general purpose"
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08:16:18 <mroman_> which a fizzbuzz builtin like gs2 has clearly isn't
08:16:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: actually, anything up to any number of bits is possible, there's no 36 bit limit
08:17:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: search for utf-8 on http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=358307
08:18:05 <AndoDaan> Though, i think with gs2 we're near the peak of the golf language arms race.
08:18:39 <zzo38> b_jonas: If you make an extension of UTF-8 (using a byte with value 255, since it is not defined in standard UTF-8) then you can make it, I think. I think someone else in here discussed that once, even.
08:19:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't perl allow up to 64 bit character codes in utf-8, as an extension, these days anyway?
08:19:15 <b_jonas> of course it's an extension, ordinary unicode goes only up to 34 bit
08:19:21 <b_jonas> but it's a logical extension
08:19:32 <b_jonas> the pattern used for utf-8 just continues fine
08:19:49 <mroman_> If you can find a suitable binary encoding for burlesque programs
08:20:01 <zzo38> Ordinary Unicode only goes up to 21-bits!
08:20:33 <mroman_> I.e. put all the most used builtins to a 1 byte command instead of 2 bytes as of now
08:20:39 <zzo38> If you extend UTF-8 beyond that (or if you use any overlong encodings), it isn't Unicode anymore!
08:20:54 <mroman_> that will cut some solutions in half
08:20:58 <AndoDaan> wait... gs2 means golfscript 2...
08:21:19 <mroman_> it's not really a "script" anymore though
08:21:29 <AndoDaan> which just means every command is reduced to one byte
08:21:43 <mroman_> golfscript already has 1 byte commands
08:21:59 <AndoDaan> could one do a straight translation from a golfscript program to gs2
08:22:31 <mroman_> but I don't know gs nor gs2 well enough to really state how similar they are
08:24:34 <b_jonas> in gs2, what does the empty program do? nop or cat?
08:24:39 <mroman_> since Burlesque has double as long commands as golfscript has, they are double as powerful
08:24:53 <mroman_> however, an error causes gs2 to quine
08:26:58 <mroman_> anyway. If anyone wants to create Binary Burlesque feel free to do so ;)
08:27:20 <mroman_> Golfing is merely a side-effect.
08:28:00 <b_jonas> I won't either. I don't see much point in these golfed languages. They're sort of like J, good for simple tasks only, not for big programs.
08:28:16 <mroman_> J is good for big programs I think
08:28:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: some claim that, yes
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08:28:36 <mroman_> It has modules and probably even GUI stuff etc
08:28:48 <mroman_> i.e. you can use it for real world software
08:29:06 <mroman_> which is something you can't do with gs, gs2, blsq, cjam, fg etc
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08:29:25 <mroman_> I don't know if gs can execute arbitrary ruby code
08:32:48 <AndoDaan> hmm, rb was planned but it is not a documented command
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10:15:02 <mroman_> opcode VFMSUBADD321PD is real
10:15:07 <mroman_> well fuck you too then o_O
10:17:27 <zzo38> What does it mean?
10:23:35 <fizzie> "Performs a set of SIMD multiply-subtract-add computation on packed double-precision floating-point values using three source vectors/operands, a, b, and c. Corresponding values in two operands, a and b, are multiplied and infinite precision intermediate results are obtained. The odd values in the third operand, c, are subtracted from the intermediate results while the even values are added to ...
10:23:41 <fizzie> ... them. The final results are rounded to the nearest float64 values."
10:24:28 <fizzie> The "321" denotes something about the operand order, I forget the exact details.
10:26:27 <zzo38> Many modern instructions sets are way too insane. I like 6502 instruction set. MMIX is also not quite too bad actually
10:26:59 <fizzie> Though the Intel manual only mentions VFMSUBADD132, VFMSUBADD213 and VFMSUBADD231. It's possible that 321 is a NASM bug, that's where I took the instruction listings from.
10:31:39 <fizzie> Denoting the subtract-add operation by +-, "VFMSUBADD132PD xmm1, xmm2, xmm3" means "xmm1 = xmm1*xmm3 +- xmm2" and correspondingly 213 -> "xmm1 = xmm2 * xmm1 +- xmm3" and 231 -> "xmm1 = xmm2 * xmm3 +- xmm1".
10:33:09 <fizzie> Or, in general, VFMSUBADDXYZP xmmX, xmmY, xmmZ -> xmmX = xmmX * xmmY +- xmmZ; the destination register is always the leftmost, but the numbers give the order of the operands in the "a * b +- c" part.
10:33:34 <fizzie> And since * is commutative, I guess VFMSUBADD321PD is a reasonable enough alias for VFMSUBADD231PD and so on.
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10:51:39 <HackEgo> danddreclist 57: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
10:52:41 <zzo38> There is not supposed to be bats flying around inside of the blacksmith shop, isn't it?
10:58:24 <mroman_> https://github.com/dagit/hs6502/tree/master/src
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12:00:26 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
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13:01:18 <fizzie> Should I allow web-based submissions, and if so, should the bot report statistics about them on channel? (It's harded to police those; of course nicks aren't very reliable either, but at least it's a slight disincentive against messing up other people's programs.)
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13:06:36 <AndoDaan_> Is that something that happens; people messing with another's their code?
13:07:26 <AndoDaan_> I mean, I see quintopia.space_elevator
13:08:35 <AndoDaan_> it just seems people are more about claiming the bot than looking into someone elses
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14:12:04 <fizzie> I guess. I'd probably prefix all web submissions with 'web~' anyway, if I went that way.
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14:44:30 <elliott_> I think it's nice that people interested in bf joust join the channel.
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14:59:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Grace * New user account
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15:14:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logical]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40509&oldid=32381 * Grace * (-4) Fixed a typo
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15:45:17 <mroman_> where both programs are in the same space
15:45:22 <mroman_> and can bombard each other with p
15:45:57 <mroman_> or scan for enemies with g
15:46:11 <J_Arcane> Heh. I always wanted to learn CoreWars when I was a kid, but I could never get my head around REDCODE.
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15:47:54 <AndoDaan_> "Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls"
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15:49:25 <AndoDaan_> I'm not sure what breadcrumb decoys are though
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15:59:50 <fizzie> Added a game viewer on the Fancy Website™.
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16:00:07 <fizzie> (Permalink buttons don't work yet, and result matrix doesn't link there.)
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16:02:30 <fizzie> Also disabled the text areas (because I'm not going to set up a server-side permalink facility like real EgoJSout has), but in retrospect maybe people would like to be able to try out things.
16:03:13 <elliott_> do you really need a server-side thing?
16:03:24 <elliott_> I guess yes because the programs are long?
16:05:02 <fizzie> Yes, even compact URL encodings are probably overly long.
16:05:12 <elliott_> hmm, is the matrix meant to highlight the entire columns/rows? it only does the headers for me
16:05:18 -!- lawpoker has changed nick to Their.
16:05:29 <fizzie> It's *meant* to, but I didn't get that far yet.
16:05:36 <AndoDaan_> !bfjoust AndoDaan_ReadMyOutput (>)*4(+)*33.<(+)*69.<(+)*73.<(+)*68(>)*9((+)*20[-]>(-)*20[+])*-1
16:05:37 <zemhill> AndoDaan_~AndoDaan_ReadMyOutput: points -20.86, score 12.64/100, rank 47/47
16:06:11 -!- Glaisher has left ("Leaving").
16:06:21 <fizzie> Also I guess the dropdowns in the game viewers should be ordered alphabetically and not by ranking....
16:07:14 <elliott_> AndoDaan_: you know you're not meant to include your name twice, right? :p
16:08:06 <AndoDaan_> so, ReadMyOutput == AndoDaan_ReadMyOutput?
16:08:26 <elliott_> fizzie: incidentally, I think . and : are probably the nicest options for nick separation. valid unescaped in filenames and URLs, simple to type on all keyboards, not visually noisy and have relevant associations (namespaces; "nick: msg" on IRC)
16:08:28 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan.
16:08:43 <elliott_> I may have given this more thought than it deserves.
16:08:56 <fizzie> Right, but then I'd have to do the manual renaming once more time.
16:09:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure why I didn't think of '.' earlier, since I kind of like it.
16:09:15 <elliott_> or does the expression come first
16:10:07 <elliott_> I sort of like : more, just for the cute pun on IRC nick pings, and because my hierarchical mind would expect "program.author.bfjoust" filename-wise. both seem a lot nicer than ~ though :p
16:11:01 <fizzie> I think my original dislike for : was that it tab-completes as \:.
16:11:05 <fizzie> A very rational reason, I'm sure.
16:11:41 <fizzie> I don't know. If it has a special meaning, I don't know it.
16:11:47 <elliott_> it doesn't here on zsh, at least
16:12:00 <fizzie> It does on bash, but removing the \ (at least in simple cases) does nothing bad.
16:12:00 <elliott_> one weird thing about : is that on OS X, "foo:bar" shows in graphical applications as foo/bar.
16:12:30 <fizzie> I guess it might make things difficult for all the people on Windows systems cloning the repository.
16:12:35 <elliott_> (because of the legacy of Paths:Like:These from classic Mac OS, and maybe because people like to name things with slashes in them?)
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16:12:57 <elliott_> oh, yeah, Windows is a good point. okay, I throw in my vote for either ., or organising them into directories and using /.
16:13:20 <fizzie> Someone had voted for "magic" in the scoring survey.
16:13:43 <fizzie> (Also it's very inconclusive, and I've just been going with the markov one by default.)
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16:15:00 <b_jonas> I actually use the comma, because it can't appear in a channel name
16:15:03 <evalj> b_jonas, done list
16:15:25 <evalj> b_jonas, open sessions are: b_jonas,#esoteric
16:15:25 <evalj> b_jonas, done list
16:15:27 <elliott_> clearly that's the answer. nick,program
16:15:45 <b_jonas> by default, evalj names sessions from nick,channel
16:16:00 <b_jonas> it names shared sessions like ,channel
16:16:12 <b_jonas> but yuo can change the chnanel part to whatever you want, to have multiple sessions
16:16:18 <elliott_> I think nick/program would be by far the nicest visually, but I guess the question is how useful organising things into author directories is.
16:16:29 <elliott_> it does have a nice sort of feel to the "program ownership" restrictions, at least.
16:18:11 <fizzie> Mmmaybe, but I don't think I can be bothered to fix the code for that. Not that the "display name" needs to exactly match the file name.
16:18:23 <fizzie> Screw it, I'll go with the dot, it's safe everywhere and doesn't look like much.
16:18:48 <elliott_> fizzie: wait! have you considered nick§program?
16:19:03 <fizzie> nick<INVISIBLE TIMES>program.
16:19:21 <elliott_> nick✏️program, to denote authorship.
16:21:13 <AndoDaan> How about (Username)FileName.bf
16:22:56 <fizzie> I think it's a bit visually verbose.
16:22:59 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: oh no... info viewer convention. don't do that.
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16:23:50 <b_jonas> there's a more evil variant though: Username>Filename
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16:24:34 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just make it change every week.
16:25:53 <elliott_> fizzie: you know, on Windows I think foo.bar.bfjoust will show up by default as foo, a BAR.BFJOUST file.
16:26:32 <elliott_> I think Windows talks about TAR.GZ files.
16:26:46 <AndoDaan> I have a bunch of Gravity.Axxo.whatever.mp4 files
16:27:59 <elliott_> on the other hand, . is the only option for POSIX "fully portable filenames" (A–Z a–z 0–9 . _ -) if not for directory organisation.
16:28:36 <elliott_> though, also, those have a 14 character limit. :p
16:28:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40510&oldid=39176 * Grace * (+2203) Added more information
16:29:37 <pikhq> I tend not to care about "fully portable filenames" though.
16:29:53 <elliott_> well, we have to use *some* criteria for bikeshedding.
16:30:07 <b_jonas> how about you just give a fully random filename from some large set of characters
16:30:16 <pikhq> Sure, just like my passwords.
16:30:50 <elliott_> store the warriors as sha512 + .bfjoust, let people use arbitrary unicode text to name them, store the mapping in a sqlite database
16:31:27 <elliott_> and then put the whole thing in the blockchain.
16:31:47 <elliott_> ooh, ooh: submit programs by paying some small amount of bitcoins and including their code in the transaction
16:31:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40511&oldid=36600 * 4D enthusiast * (-90) Revised the introduction
16:32:11 <b_jonas> how about HUserNameFileName where the first character is 64 plus the length of the username?
16:32:14 <Bike> may i interest you in this artisnal yak hair coat
16:32:37 <b_jonas> then users can use any characters in their username without fearing of conflict with the separator
16:33:08 <AndoDaan> How about naming the programs after it's Strategy Code.
16:34:28 <elliott_> remember the filenames need to be 8.3
16:34:33 <AndoDaan> Anyone remembers the strategy codes?
16:35:02 <AndoDaan> "dPC?d?D@(!Y)Y(D)Y(D)%>~O2*3\+"==quintopi's space_hotel
16:35:35 <b_jonas> but yeah, the sha1 of their contents might work too
16:37:22 <elliott_> b_jonas: sorry, 8.3 has less than 83 bits of storage space
16:37:41 <elliott_> (it's a little complicated because of the space handling rules)
16:38:12 <elliott_> it's about 82.4 without spaces, 82.5 with unrestricted spaces
16:38:22 <b_jonas> elliott_: that depends on what code page you have loaded with MODE CON, for that determines what high characters are allowed
16:38:34 <b_jonas> seriously, you can't even open existing filenames with wrong characters
16:38:49 <elliott_> b_jonas: is that a FAT thing or a DOS thing?
16:38:52 <elliott_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.3_filename doesn't say anything about that
16:39:11 <elliott_> don't you use FAT-16 on your workstations?
16:39:13 <b_jonas> um, who cares about 8.3 filenames?
16:39:14 <pikhq> It's also a bit of a Windows thing.
16:39:41 <pikhq> Because Windows' Unicode support is moronic.
16:47:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40512&oldid=40510 * Grace * (+459) Added list of encoders
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16:59:24 <Abramelin> The great architect of the universe is yourself
17:00:00 <myname> of course, that's why i'm discordian pope
17:03:43 <coppro> myname: you too? What a spooky coincidence
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17:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40513&oldid=40512 * Grace * (+65) Found another encoder
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17:24:29 <deco> Hey guys so I know this isn't a esoteric language but you guys have never let me down in the past. I need your help identifying what this is:
17:24:32 <deco> the answer to this stage is notveryhard
17:24:32 <deco> Idaia fidvsc s o.eual o tlsag e rmee"r f nlhnphlhihi oya fw Ffwoeo'r eortfdfpgffitooitnptotnul o tioonhrrlhge bhglyfynbocrrne tlee hlied ooea. ti ys r!yaes. sru s pysnwo,g .ovm btw liTho giu ecue cIerahochrui nryth wht arat earsf" o a
17:24:52 <deco> I think it is a classic cipher but I don't know which one
17:25:23 <deco> again sorry for posting something that is not a esoteric language. I just know you guys are smart and could help
17:28:25 <Bike> weird spacing.
17:30:08 <fizzie> Some sort of a transposition thing in that case, perhaps.
17:30:28 <fizzie> ^scramble Since you end up with weird spacing, and punctuation, with those.
17:30:28 <fungot> Sneyuedu ihwidsaig n ucuto,wt hs.eothi niatnpda,ncp re twp n o ci
17:33:57 <fizzie> There are a number of "classical" ones based on writing the stuff in a grid or a spiral or whatnot, and reading it out the other way around.
17:34:56 <deco> there is a hint "Hint, everybody knows it's not length that matters."
17:36:01 <deco> it changes every time its generated
17:36:10 <deco> here is another version I wnet o eto oh hig hfT sryuehateffa hf o rovh.aovbeoituw pe irea rshrice tIrw sm e lh ahtladiay" elay i yrocgowwf lopss dn iuiifglur hs eccrnnoee ocoti r n"rtndbhurflypei.t golala ophfn saeneldiyttrfgF,n!'ml gosoao o o.t ebhu .srfryt
17:37:55 <fizzie> Exactly identical character frequencies, which is an even stronger clue that it's just a transposition thing.
17:38:21 <fizzie> Does it always start with "I", by any chance?
17:38:32 <deco> let me run another
17:38:38 <Bike> i'm wondering about the count of single-letter words...
17:38:53 <deco> yes it always starts with I
17:39:10 <deco> I'lcslraooh hh"flc tehhywvf.reie.o hh mao ae afs rgaoh lusr bTsf aFtelpawlltddaheoinostleviedr ose rssr, e etn aini ft w any hgbifecmosweyyngoa eeg ar hroooeu t. hylcg ie uut! ph ftooriysrgr h.driIa utyco eo weoostif sp u" eeirnb roh tprttsfl
17:39:26 <deco> Iaafds nte la messrhpliioafw, orerffgfe cponl ioryhebgyybcr"oa le oa t.ulye.susps lom t ih Fweu Irhcrioin wtaa asrlgdi ivcs leotsgere"y !nhhh y eog.' otdpfauettu otosrt hlfnori hidoe. eeaas r ysfnv bwlTotfoeceaohu ot h rterarh
17:39:51 <deco> the first letter of the sequence is always I
17:42:07 <fizzie> That's curious. The first two had exactly identical character counts, but these are slightly different. (Do you happen to know if the plaintext's fixed?)
17:43:32 <Bike> if it's transposition of a single plaintext they wouldn't give that length hit.
17:46:40 <fizzie> Be that as it may, it's certainly unlikely to happen by chance that the first two happen to be permutations of each other, if the rest aren't.
17:46:55 <fizzie> (And the letter frequencies are *very* typical for English, too.)
17:48:15 <b_jonas> What's this where's it from?
17:48:16 <fizzie> Also I got some regular words out of it simply by line-wrapping it at a certain length and reading it top-to-down.
17:48:58 <b_jonas> Is that from something like http://pythonchallenge.org/ or some similar puzzles?
17:49:08 <Bike> maybe there's a few plaintexts.
17:49:41 <b_jonas> http://www.pythonchallenge.com/
17:50:14 <fizzie> At line length of 22, the starts of the first columns read stuff like "I hope", "don't", "a problem", "ith this I", [ch]"allenge" and so on.
17:50:42 <deco> b_jonas: its stage two of a crypto challenge
17:51:02 <deco> stage one was a ceaser cipher you had to solve in 2 seconds and send the response so I did it up in python
17:51:06 <deco> got past stage two
17:51:15 <deco> got past that to stage two*
17:51:35 <b_jonas> oh, so it's always a permutation?
17:52:14 <deco> I can send you my script if you like
17:52:20 <deco> do you have python installed?
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17:52:35 <b_jonas> can you paste some versions of this cyphertext somewhere?
17:52:41 <fizzie> A caesar cipher is not a permutation. (I mean, of the plaintext. It's a permutation of the alphabet, of course.)
17:52:48 <deco> give me one sec
17:54:13 <deco> http://pastebin.com/7xD08sim
17:54:44 <b_jonas> so they're not really permutatinos
17:54:50 <b_jonas> they ahve different lengths
17:55:37 <deco> after I solve the first part:
17:55:39 <deco> Congratulations, you have solved stage 1. You have 9 seconds left.
17:55:40 <deco> Now it's time for something slightly more difficult. Hint, everybody knows it's not length that matters.
17:56:50 <b_jonas> even though they do look sort of like permutations. let me compute their frequencies
17:57:01 <fizzie> "I hope you don't have a problem with this challenge. It should be fairly straight forward if you have done lots of basic crypto. --"
17:57:11 <fizzie> I didn't quite paste all of it.
17:58:03 <deco> sweet! fizzie how did you solve it
17:58:18 <deco> was it the 22 line length
17:58:47 <b_jonas> the letter frequencies are very similar, the punctuation and capital letters are very similar, but the number of "a" and "e" differ
17:59:11 <fizzie> It's different amount of columns for the different outputs, it's not always 22.
17:59:26 <fizzie> For your second paste, it's 15.
17:59:54 <b_jonas> oh, you mean it's padded with extra letters?
17:59:58 <b_jonas> let me try to transpose it
18:00:18 <fizzie> You just line-wrap it at the right length, and read top-to-bottom instead of left-to-right.
18:00:35 <deco> fizzie: what tool did you use? ms word?
18:00:37 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_cipher#Columnar_transposition except it's not even in scrambled order.
18:00:40 <b_jonas> right, Journey to the Center of Earth cypher
18:00:59 <fizzie> And I used vi and a resizable terminal window.
18:01:44 <deco> fizzie: the second paste on here of pastebin was 15?
18:02:13 <fizzie> On the channel. Unless I rearranged them when trying out.
18:02:54 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hhKj <- that one, anyway.
18:02:57 <deco> thank you so much fizzie
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18:05:45 <b_jonas> hmm, I get half garbage half real text
18:05:52 <b_jonas> probably I'm doing something wrong
18:07:48 <fizzie> If you're using some editor's line-wrapping, it's probably handling e.g. several spaces or words-longer-than-lines somehow specially.
18:08:05 <b_jonas> I'm using a simple perl script, but using it wrong
18:08:23 <b_jonas> I get stuff like: (I hope you don't have a problem wirg h h ho rnve. It should be fairly straight foartdprcyeoea e done lots of basic crypto. The mo r u sflhr,your efforts is "not not wrong". Fhacosfafl os you will get another challenge!.twiyiireauftg)
18:08:59 <b_jonas> ah! found the real phrase too
18:09:52 <b_jonas> maybe deco copy-pasted some spaces wrong/
18:10:05 <deco> maybe (sorry if I did)
18:10:22 <b_jonas> but maybe it's something on my side
18:10:27 <deco> Im trying to figure out how to write an auto solver in python
18:10:41 <deco> to send the solution instantly back to the server
18:11:04 <b_jonas> why'd you do that? isn't the magic phrase always the same?
18:11:21 <b_jonas> or maybe there's two of them, hmm
18:11:38 <fizzie> Some of the later pastes are different.
18:12:24 <fizzie> All the rest of the plaintext -- the "I hope you don't .." and so on -- seems to be the same, so if you don't mind a less elegant solution, you can just try widths from 1 onward until the result starts with that.
18:16:43 <deco> I understand how it works I just need to figure out how to create a solution in python
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18:34:50 <b_jonas> ] #t1=:'Imli yh dfcoewhw ru ioibyyrwlpteop ileh uten f of"gytah.f.eohia o tuirvTrF slehtoad y esrnoc d onhsomiyt''atnasohtlreg'
18:34:55 <b_jonas> #t2=:' ue la i"rrheilcw ango iecvghtpnfheetshnfa . riola foanrl Iofsgteptr e snr wb f,gosaafo ebhrsory!lodir o.eu c tu'
18:35:05 <evalj> b_jonas: 160 {. , |: _8 ]\ 'Imli yh dfcoewhw ru ioibyyrwlpteop ileh uten f of"gytah.f.eohia o tuirvTrF slehtoad y esrnoc d onhsomiyt''atnasohtlreg' , t2
18:35:09 <b_jonas> ] #t2=:' ue la i"rrheilcw ango iecvghtpnfheetshnfa . riola foanrl Iofsgteptr e snr wb f,gosaafo ebhrsory!lodir o.eu c tu'
18:35:12 <evalj> b_jonas: I hope you don't have a problem with this challenge. It should be fairly straight forward if you have done lots of basic crypto. The magic phrase for your effor
18:35:32 <b_jonas> (truncated to 160 chars intentionally)
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18:53:43 <deco> fizzie: you still there?
18:53:54 <deco> got to the third and final stage
18:54:00 <deco> WPKLB WZENC ZQNEO WIEPM XUQKM DYAZL WMZMB CJOII ZQVAG CHWZJ OXTHJ OOLPD LVFMP OGHRT LVIXF HEATM QBGGB HUAKG VIUVQ WZABC VBJBA CAEDM UMUHT JNBCC LBYHC ZQBVQ RTXTJ ZRWZR KWWMB VNTSS WEGPQ ZYMRI HAWKM HBGZT HTQMA CSTVV WRWLB HBMRI HAWKM HUAKU HKCGP OADCC LBKPW BQEIF REONK VJICJ EMTXY IVRVB OMVLX IGTYC PIIBK DURRQ HNQKB VRNVV WTGOM ZVNKF HUKWL ZRRZE KBJXZ SAOKF LVIMZ WPKPM NVQPU CEEKC ABVHU OXEJS UMVAI HVTZQ VWNOI PYEZQ KWWEL DEOSY ETACC GGPLR LVUHU SAUIQ HZAKP MZEF
18:54:21 <Bike> ïa ïa, shub-niggurath
18:55:18 -!- shikhin has changed nick to lawpoker.
18:57:48 <Sgeo> Scotland is interesting
18:57:50 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven
18:58:47 <b_jonas> deco: paste that to somewhere as well because it's long
18:59:11 <AndoDaan> Did you miss a letter at the end, Deco?
18:59:58 <b_jonas> that one is probably not a simple rearrangement cipher nor a single letter substitution cipher, but something more complicated
19:01:08 <deco> AndoDaan: yes I did
19:01:11 <Bike> now i kind of want to set up a crypto challenge site that's just a bunch of numbers station transcripts.
19:01:22 <Bike> and photos of Kryptos and so on
19:01:36 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptos
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19:04:01 <fizzie> I'm guessing a four-square, since that's what people hit when they think 'something that's not a single-letter substitution'.
19:04:03 <deco> here is another one (not missing last chrs
19:04:14 <deco> http://pastebin.com/H78P9Zpa
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19:07:44 <b_jonas> the letters have noticably different frequencies, but not really the frequencies you'd expect from English
19:13:51 <fizzie> Good old Kasiski test strongly suggests a Vigenère with key length of 7.
19:14:48 <fizzie> There are a number of repeats with offsets like 28, 392, 91, 182, 539; the gcd of all of those is 7.
19:15:26 <deco> looking at it now, any idea what the key would be?
19:17:13 <deco> fizzie: did you manually do a Kasiski examination?
19:17:36 <fizzie> No, I just wrote some Perl oneliners.
19:18:10 <fizzie> ... | perl -ne 'chomp; $w = 4; for ($at = 0; $at+$w < length($_); $at++) { print substr($_, $at, $w), "\n"; }' | sort | uniq -c | grep -v '^ *1' for a list of repeats and so on.
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19:30:43 <zzo38> What are you thinking of this Famicom mapper design? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_I
19:37:02 <deco> get any further fizzie?
19:37:37 <fizzie> Well, yes, I did solve it.
19:37:47 <fizzie> But doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of the challenge if you just ask for solutions?
19:38:34 <deco> fizzie: so it is vigenere with key size of 7 you said?
19:39:04 <fizzie> Yes. And you get the key directly by observing the character histograms of every 7'th letter -- at all 7 different offsets -- and just checking what the obvious shift is to make those match English.
19:39:45 <fizzie> The text is mostly just filler to make it easier to solve.
19:40:30 <deco> for the sake of time can you tell me the key? Ill go back and solve it manually later.
19:40:53 <fizzie> I assume the key, and possibly also the key length, is random in different iterations of the problem.
19:41:46 <deco> for the one that you solved what was it?
19:42:24 <fizzie> Well, the offsets you need to add are (0, 9, 22, 22, 0, 8, 2). And the plaintext starts (I've added the spaces) "THIS TIME WE WILL GIVE YOU MORE PLAINTEXT TO WORK WITH ..."
19:43:46 <fizzie> Alternatively, the offsets the ciphertext has had added are (0, 17, 4, 4, 0, 18, 24) and you can subtract those; but I don't think either way the key makes sense as a word, so it's perhaps just random letters.
19:44:55 <fizzie> It does say "-- the funny thing is that depending on which random key you get that poem might be exactly the right offset to successfully mount an attack --", which makes it sound a bit like it's random key length, too.
19:48:16 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the key does make sense as a word, since the latter turns into "AREEASY". I just converted the first five letters when looking at it, and "AREEA" didn't seem very word-like.
19:48:28 <fizzie> Anyhow, maybe that means they have a fixed set of keys they pick from.
20:18:30 <deco> what do you think the magic phrase is in the text?
20:23:38 <fizzie> Well, the version I got says "let's put the magic phrase for the next level in the middle" "right here" "nothing tricky" "ok" "now more text to make sure that it is solvable".
20:23:47 <fizzie> I guess you could solve another instance and see what changed.
20:27:13 <deco> here is another instance
20:27:15 <deco> http://pastebin.com/RMFH99ND
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20:38:16 <fizzie> The key for that is "WORDS".
20:38:21 <fizzie> And the plaintext seems identical.
20:46:02 <fizzie> There are a number of javascript web pages where you can paste in ciphertext and it'll do the repeat-offset analysis and provide you with shiftable letter frequencies to slide.
20:47:15 <deco> can you send a link?
20:50:14 <fizzie> http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Black_Chamber/vigenere_cracking_tool.html is one of the ones I hit first. Or you could go to http://practicalcryptography.com/cryptanalysis/stochastic-searching/cryptanalysis-vigenere-cipher-part-2/ or, you know, Google.
20:50:18 <fizzie> Though I'm not entirely sure why you're doing this all, if not for the fun of puzzling it out.
20:53:59 <fizzie> !bfjoust refresh_report (>)*8(>[-])*21
20:53:59 <zemhill> fizzie.refresh_report: points -18.90, score 12.98/100, rank 47/47
20:54:30 <fizzie> I don't understand why the report is persistently showing ais523.preparation as "new" in the rank-change field.
20:58:11 <fizzie> Ohhhh, just a js mishap.
20:59:06 <fizzie> (Due to 0 being false.)
20:59:44 <fizzie> Oh well, at least I got the .s in.
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21:17:32 <elliott_> fizzie: which *lance is it running?
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21:48:43 <elliott_> fizzie: btw, the readme still says the bot is written in python
21:56:19 <fizzie> I think I fixed that, but then I was going to write something else to the README too so didn't commit just that change.
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21:56:36 <fizzie> (I have no idea why I went all Ruby with it either.)
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22:03:00 <Sgeo> I'm glad that Haskell is finally starting to catch up to Racket with PatternSynonyms
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22:16:52 <boily> Sgeo: heretic! how dare you tell that Haskell is less advanced than any other language!
22:17:00 <boily> (also, what is a PatternSynonym?)
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22:21:30 <Sgeo> Allows defining pseudopatterns with pseudoconstructors that expand into other patterns
22:22:04 <Sgeo> So with that plus ViewPatterns, I could define a pattern like GreaterThanFive on Ints
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22:36:00 <Sgeo> boily: https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/icelandj/Pattern%20synonyms
22:49:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 212220Z 31009KT 9999 BKN041 08/03 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 32016KT
22:50:40 <lambdabot> CYUL 212200Z 20009KT 15SM FEW040 FEW052 SCT110 BKN240 22/17 A2952 RMK CU1SC2AC2CI2 CU TR SLP996 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
22:51:00 <boily> twenty two? now the weather's just messing up with me.
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