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00:29:51 <lambdabot> ENVA 262350Z 21019KT 9999 VCSH FEW010 SCT025 BKN035 08/04 Q0994 RMK WIND 670FT 21024G40KT
00:30:26 <oerjan> so which part of that says that the weather is awful today
00:33:20 <oerjan> i hate it when it pours _and_ is too windy to use my umbrella
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00:48:49 <oerjan> <mroman_> the size of the set of all variations of lowercase,uppercas,digit and symbols is much larger <-- hm i'm skeptical actually
00:49:53 <oerjan> possibly that was entirely ironic, but i'm not convinced there's even a *2 difference
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00:52:04 <oerjan> ok assuming ascii between 33 and 126
00:52:48 <oerjan> > let d = 10; lc = 26; uc = 26; s = 126-d-lc-uc in s
00:53:21 <oerjan> > let d = 10; lc = 26; uc = 26; s = 126-32d-lc-uc in s
00:53:22 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a))
00:53:23 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘s’
00:53:23 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a1 -> a),
00:53:34 <oerjan> > let d = 10; lc = 26; uc = 26; s = 126-32-d-lc-uc in s
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01:16:54 <HackEgo> olist 963: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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03:47:51 <oerjan> <elliott_> has anyone written a generator for that god-awful never execute a ] style? <-- well in general that gives exponential blowup
03:49:41 <ais523> and am very much in favour of designing the rules of BF Joust so that it doesn't work
03:52:45 <ais523> e.g. via program size limits in the hundreds-of-kilobytes to low-megabytes range
03:52:59 <oerjan> i think some of the usefulness of ({})% is that it gives you _some_ of the power of that style
03:53:17 <oerjan> how much of it, i wonder
03:54:47 <ais523> oerjan: see stealth2's behaviour against a program that sets scattered small decoys, and you get a very good idea
03:56:56 <oerjan> you can do [P]Q -> ([P{}]Q)%-1 but that probably does not compose
03:57:22 <zemhill_> oerjan: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
03:58:12 <ais523> oerjan: that's actually a really useful transformation for timer-ing a clear
03:58:18 <ais523> if you reduce the -1 to some smaller value
04:06:27 <Lymia> <oerjan> <elliott_> has anyone written a generator for that god-awful never execute a ] style? <-- well in general that gives exponential blowup
04:06:34 <Lymia> That's what I started writing JoustExt for.
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04:06:51 <Lymia> I had to abandon runtime if {} else {} and similar constructs because the exponential blow up was too hard to control
04:08:28 <ais523> and that's the way it should be
04:08:51 <ais523> oerjan: I guess the reason I like ({})% is that it gives you symmetry between test-zero and test-nonzero
04:09:15 <ais523> ()* lets you do any number of consecutive zero tests, but you need ({})% to do consecutive nonzero tests
04:09:27 * Lymia resolves to aim a fuzzer at gearlance
04:10:17 <ais523> Lymia: looking for a bug?
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04:18:06 <Lymia> Howmany reasons could I have for pointing a fuzzer at something?
04:27:09 <ais523> hmm, I was more trying to get at, were you planning to try to find a bug that let you defy the normal rules of BF Joust?
04:28:43 <ais523> oh, more notes about that esolang I was developing
04:28:49 <ais523> it uses a queue for recursion, rather than a stack
04:28:55 <ais523> this wasn't even intentional, it just sort-of happened
04:29:17 <ais523> there was a really good reason but I can't remember it offhand
04:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: it makes me want to write an alternate joust with goto labels. strategies would get far more complex far more quickly!
04:31:00 <ais523> quintopia: defence programs would be close to unwritable
04:31:14 <ais523> reverse tripwires would be very unlikely to work, unless pretty large
04:32:08 <quintopia> but also i was thinking it would be cool to have a cronjob hill. you submit a link instead of the actual code, and it runs once per night, updating by downloading codes from all the addresses that were modified TODAY and rerunning those. it's feasible now that we have fixed point.
04:32:18 <quintopia> and it could lead to a lot of surprises when multiple people update
04:34:43 <ais523> that's pretty close to how the original hill worked
04:34:58 <ais523> except it was weekly rather than daily, and there was IIRC a one-week lag on seeing each other's programs
04:35:16 <ais523> it might be interesting to have a hill where egojsout-style traces are available but source isn't
04:35:38 <ais523> so people would have to reverse-engineer each other's programs from behaviour
04:35:48 <quintopia> would definitely rule out the possibility of "program that beats/draws everything"
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05:19:46 <Sgeo> What do people here think of Ethereum?
05:38:24 <oerjan> !bfjoust dotheywork (>[(+{>[-{-}]}.)%3])%9
05:38:25 <zemhill_> oerjan.dotheywork: points -29.67, score 4.28, rank 47/47
05:39:40 <oerjan> so zemhill_ _does_ support nested ({})s
05:39:49 <oerjan> or at least the syntax
05:41:17 <ais523> just because it parses doesn't mean it does what you expect
05:42:48 <oerjan> although i sort of assume that anyone who would make it parse will also have listened to me blathering about how it _should_ be implemented.
05:42:49 <ais523> !bftest test ((>{+}>{-})%3)%4
05:42:50 <zemhill_> ais523: error: parse error: encountered second { on a same level
05:43:04 <ais523> OK, at least something that is obviously meaningless fails to parse
05:49:07 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: the site is very confusing, and the lack of any sort of conventional research papers doesn't give me much confidence
05:49:16 <oerjan> hah looking at parser.h, the reason (...) is treated as a comment is so that it won't cause a parse error _inside_ a (...)*0 comment :P
05:50:55 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: in particular it looks like EVM doesn't do any sort of static analysis
05:52:38 <ais523> incidentally, the answer to te problem that came up in here several weeks ago, "is it possible to securely trade between two cryptocoins that don't share a blockchain" is "yes"
05:52:45 <ais523> although it needs certain features from each
05:53:18 <coppro> what is the definition of secure, here? ensure atomicity?
05:53:36 <ais523> coppro: yes, as in the trade one way also forces the trade the other way
05:53:49 <Patashu> same definition of secure as it is within one blockchain, I'd think
05:54:11 <Patashu> in that once it's agreed on to have happened (part of the blockchain) it can't ever be reverted
05:54:23 <coppro> Patashu: you need more than that
05:54:35 <ais523> the main features are: a) a method to reserve funds for a specific length of time, such that they can only be transferred to one specific person within that time (but don't have to be; the reservation can time out); b) transactions that ignore unrecognised fields, and that are only accepted before a specific time and if they are signed with specific public keys (where the time and keys are part of the transaction itself)
05:54:39 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: maybe you've heard of IBM forking Ethereum, though
05:54:57 <coppro> Patashu: in a single cryptocurrency, the currencies are fungible
05:55:05 <coppro> Patashu: so the notion of an exchange is meaningless
05:55:23 <ais523> basically, the way it works is, both of us reserve our cryptocoins to each other, until some specified deadline; then we create a transaction that does /both/ transfers, and requires both our signatures and times out before the deadline in question
05:55:44 <Sgeo> drdanmaku: haven't heard of that
05:55:54 <coppro> ais523: but aren't the transaction records separate?
05:55:56 <ais523> if we both sign it, we can each submit the transaction to the blockchain where we're receiving, it goes through because all the conditions are met
05:56:11 <ais523> if we don't both sign it, neither transaction can be submitted, and they both time out
05:56:20 <ais523> also you need asymmetrical deadlines, to prevent timing scams
05:56:50 <ais523> basically, you're creating a polyglot transaction, that's accepted by one side only if it's accepted by the other side
05:57:07 <coppro> right, that makes sense
05:57:08 <ais523> so that if you kick off my side of the transfer, I can grab the same transfer out of the blockchain and kick off your side
05:57:14 <Sgeo> I'm kind of sad Ethereum contracts can't initiate transactions
05:57:16 <ais523> (thus the asymmetrical deadlines)
05:57:26 <drdanmaku> Sgeo: https://gigaom.com/2014/09/09/check-out-ibms-proposal-for-an-internet-of-things-architecture-using-bitcoins-block-chain-tech/ and https://twitter.com/pbrody/status/510311550734073856
05:57:29 <Sgeo> Loops that keep going as long as the contract is paid
05:57:44 <ais523> and the hold means that the money has to be available
05:58:01 <ais523> (we both put the holds onto our respective blockchains in advance, and verify they're there before starting the transaction proper)
05:58:27 <ais523> actually the ability to do a hold would be useful generally to be able to do truly instantaneous transactions, so long as you predicted in advance that they might happen
05:59:31 <drdanmaku> do ya'll really trust the bitcoin implementation in light of recent stuff like heartbleed and shellshock :/
05:59:59 <drdanmaku> it seems like a disaster waiting to happen if it wasn't well designed ahead of time
06:00:11 <drdanmaku> bitcoin was kind of just a code dump by an anonymous person
06:00:17 <ais523> drdanmaku: I personally don't trust it; however, I think it's unlikely that a security hole will be found in the protocol itself, on the basis that if there was one, someone would probably have found and exploited it by now
06:00:21 <coppro> drdanmaku: an academic, actually
06:00:35 <ais523> security holes in various bitcoin manipulation software have been found frequently, I expect them to continue to be
06:00:37 <drdanmaku> coppro: "academic"? satoshi nakamoto?
06:02:05 <drdanmaku> his secret identity might be in academia, but if he wants that credibility it would come with having some accountability as well
06:03:02 <coppro> academic code? credibility? hahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahahahahaha
06:03:58 <ais523> coppro: to be fair, academic code's pretty good when seen in the light of sturgeon's law
06:04:07 <ais523> in that I think it bats a little below 90% crud
06:04:21 <drdanmaku> maybe i'm not making my point clearly, but in any case i don't really feel like diving too deeply in to stuff like bitcoin or ethereum since they seem pretty sketchy in terms of who's involved and who's responsible for things
06:04:37 <coppro> drdanmaku: please, use dogecoin
06:05:11 <ais523> isn't that even more sketchy?
06:05:29 <drdanmaku> maybe IBM and Samsung can make something more attractive with block chain tech
06:05:36 <ais523> and currently trying very hard to get people to take it seriously, so that the people who already own it can become rich?
06:05:42 <ais523> block chain tech itself is pretty awesome
06:05:45 <drdanmaku> although it sounds like their Adept thing is focused on the "internet of things" whatever that means
06:05:50 <ais523> but mining-based money distribution isn't
06:06:06 <drdanmaku> ais523: yeah, i'd like some general purpose block chain stuff from software developers i'd heard of before
06:06:48 <coppro> you could have a centrally managed currency, but you'd need a stupidly strong public key for that
06:07:22 <ais523> you could easily make it cryptographically strong enough
06:07:29 <ais523> but the social engineering issues would be another matter
06:08:28 <coppro> one other option would just be to give your central bank an inordinately large supply of money, and only allow it to trade with certain other entities
06:09:20 <coppro> not really any more vulnerable to social engineering than the current system, and you avoid actually having to create and destroy money by virtue of the volume
06:10:09 <coppro> although I guess if you impose very strict transaction restrictions on the central key, socially engineering it out doesn't get you personally much money
06:10:22 <coppro> and everyone will be watching the transactions carefully to see if anything is amiss
06:10:48 <ais523> clearly, Bitcoin needs Agoran-style promises
06:11:15 <ais523> I actually originally invented them as a currency for a work of fiction when I was wondering what a completely chaotic currency system would be like
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06:13:01 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>)*9(-)*128.
06:13:01 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -33.52, score 2.99, rank 47/47
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06:14:15 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>)*9(-)*128(<--<++)*4(>)*8([-]>)*3(<--<++)*4(>)*8([-].>)*-1
06:14:16 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -22.40, score 5.64, rank 47/47 (--)
06:14:34 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>)*9(-)*128(<--<++)*4(>)*8([-]>)*3(<--<++)*4(>)*8([(+)*7[-]].>)*-1
06:14:35 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -24.12, score 4.85, rank 47/47 (--)
06:15:19 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>-)*9((-)*128)*3([-].>)*-1
06:15:20 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -27.83, score 3.46, rank 47/47 (--)
06:15:25 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>-)*9((-)*128)*3([-.]>)*-1
06:15:26 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -31.40, score 3.04, rank 47/47 (--)
06:15:40 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>(-)*10)*9((-)*128)*3([-]>)*-1
06:15:40 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -21.17, score 7.21, rank 47/47 (--)
06:15:45 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>(-)*32)*9((-)*128)*3([-]>)*-1
06:15:46 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -23.26, score 6.96, rank 47/47 (--)
06:15:50 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>(-)*13)*9((-)*128)*3([-]>)*-1
06:15:50 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -18.69, score 8.67, rank 47/47 (--)
06:16:06 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>(-)*13)*9((-)*128)*3<<<([-]>)*-1
06:16:06 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -23.00, score 6.68, rank 47/47 (--)
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06:51:19 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-)*-1)*-1
06:51:21 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -9.36, score 11.83, rank 47/47
06:51:44 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[]<(++-)*-1)*-1
06:51:46 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -12.12, score 9.86, rank 47/47 (--)
06:52:01 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-.)*-1)*-1
06:52:02 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -24.52, score 5.40, rank 47/47 (--)
06:52:04 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-)*-1)*-1
06:52:07 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -9.36, score 11.83, rank 47/47 (--)
06:52:16 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-)*-1)
06:52:16 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -29.67, score 4.28, rank 47/47 (--)
06:52:19 <ais523> mroman_: your programs seem to contain a lot of tripwires for the sake of having tripwires
06:52:41 <ais523> they're only useful when writing a program that benefits from knowing what the opponent is doing
06:52:44 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-)*-1)*10
06:52:47 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -9.36, score 11.83, rank 47/47 (--)
06:52:59 <mroman_> !bfjoust trip (>+[].<(++-)*-1)*10(>)*9([-].>)*-1
06:53:02 <zemhill_> mroman_.trip: points -9.36, score 11.83, rank 47/47 (--)
06:53:16 <mroman_> I haven't figured out how tripwires can be used
06:54:41 <ais523> the most common use nowadays is to detect if the opponent is near your flag, and change to a different strategy rather than setting decoys behind them
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07:01:46 <ais523> oh well, I just got the updated fix to the bash bug people were talking about
07:01:55 <ais523> and the fix was to change a .y file
07:02:03 <ais523> so parser bug was pretty much spot on
07:04:33 <mroman_> but while you're detecting you can't do anything
07:06:56 <ais523> so, a forwards tripwire, like [], is mostly only useful for cycle-accurate synchronization, because of that
07:07:09 <ais523> a common alternative is to set the tripwire to a known value, and see if it still has that value when you check
07:08:05 <zemhill_> mroman_.foo: points -15.43, score 7.99, rank 47/47
07:08:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust foo (->(+)*3<-)*-1
07:08:24 <zemhill_> mroman_.foo: points -16.50, score 7.07, rank 47/47 (--)
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07:14:25 <coppro> durkon allotrope thundershield
07:18:46 <mroman_> !bfjoust rabbit (>)*9([(+)*9[-]]>)*4(-<-)*4(<-<+)*4<-([>[(+)*9[-]]]..+)*-1
07:18:48 <zemhill_> mroman_.rabbit: points -17.57, score 7.45, rank 47/47
07:20:09 <mroman_> !bfjoust rabbit ([>[(+)*9[-]]]..+)*-1
07:20:09 <zemhill_> mroman_.rabbit: points -31.55, score 4.29, rank 47/47 (--)
07:20:34 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -27.76, score 4.95, rank 47/47
07:20:48 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>)*9[[-]]
07:20:49 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -27.67, score 4.99, rank 47/47 (--)
07:20:57 <mroman_> !bfjoust oneshot (>)*9([[-]]>)*-1
07:20:58 <zemhill_> mroman_.oneshot: points -14.40, score 10.88, rank 47/47 (--)
07:21:11 <mroman_> !bfjoust meow (>-)*9([[-]]>)*-1
07:21:12 <zemhill_> mroman_.meow: points -25.86, score 3.92, rank 47/47
07:21:23 <mroman_> !bfjoust meow (>)*9([[-]]+>)*-1
07:21:23 <zemhill_> mroman_.meow: points -16.55, score 10.10, rank 47/47 (--)
07:21:31 <mroman_> !bfjoust meow ([[-]]+>)*-1
07:21:32 <zemhill_> mroman_.meow: points -25.50, score 3.68, rank 47/47 (--)
07:23:03 <mroman_> !bfjoust vibr4t3 (-)*127(-+.)*100000
07:23:04 <zemhill_> mroman_.vibr4t3: points -5.05, score 15.50, rank 39/47
07:23:09 <mroman_> !bfjoust vibr4t3 (-)*127(-+)*100000
07:23:09 <zemhill_> mroman_.vibr4t3: points -11.40, score 11.43, rank 47/47 (-8)
07:23:12 <mroman_> !bfjoust vibr4t3 (-)*127(-+.)*100000
07:23:13 <zemhill_> mroman_.vibr4t3: points -5.05, score 15.50, rank 39/47 (+8)
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07:51:29 <mroman_> >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15 <- this was #1 on the hill?
07:51:42 <mroman_> it... just waits forever before advancing...
07:54:26 <ion> http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q3/712
07:55:34 <Bike> haha yeah i saw that
07:55:53 <Bike> i wonder how many bugs you could find just by grepping for literal numbers, generally
07:56:38 <Bike> (the patch replaces a *redir_stack[10] with **redir_stack, among other things
07:56:42 <Bike> end parenthesis
07:59:05 <mroman_> there's still no patch for my php-injection-vuln for weathermap 0.97c
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08:01:02 <mroman_> I don't know if I should disclose that publicly
08:03:30 <Bike> we're all doomed anyway
08:07:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YoYoYonnY * New user account
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08:36:46 <mroman_> Reading seclists I probably will never use wordpress
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09:28:50 <fizzie> "too many programs: 49 > 47" gah
09:33:33 <fizzie> It says "replacing", but then it leaves some leftover record (don't know where), and when the same name is reused, considers it's "updating" an old one, which causes a new file to be created.
09:34:49 <fizzie> Oh, that's a silly bug.
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09:48:28 <mroman_> if(numPrograms > 47) throw new NullPointerException();
09:48:56 <mroman_> or ((Object)null).toString();
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10:44:26 <zemhill> web.just_testing: points -12.67, score 11.69, rank 47/47
10:44:45 <fizzie> (I will disable it if it becomes a problem.)
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10:50:31 <fizzie> Directly at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/
10:52:20 <mroman_> fizzie: technically there's still /ignore zemhill ;)
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11:31:54 <elliott_> ais523: I think it's a flaw in BF Joust that it allows that style
11:32:03 <elliott_> and that hacking on arbitrary limits to prevent it is a bit disappointing
11:32:46 <ais523> elliott_: well I did think of an interesting alternative, thinking about this problem
11:33:04 <ais523> we add an extra command, which means "win"; it only does anything if you're on the enemy flag and that flag has value 0
11:33:22 <ais523> but you can only have one of them in the entire program
11:34:39 <elliott_> I sort of think maybe we should just make ] take zero cycles and go from there
11:36:07 <ais523> then you hit the instant triplock problem
11:36:40 <elliott_> yes, both ways have problems and need fixing
11:37:15 <elliott_> a really boring solution would be a [] nesting limit, btw
11:37:22 <elliott_> that's probably nicer than a program length limit
11:37:24 <ais523> that said, I've had thoughts on how to win in an instant triplock hill
11:37:39 <ais523> I don't think it'd be as deep, but there's /some/ depth there
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11:47:32 <mroman_> Although I have nothing against a program length limit of 100
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12:00:58 <elliott_> you think there's no value in the more complex programs at all...? many of the oneliners don't even fit in 100
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12:33:55 <mroman_> Programmers using scanf with %f without setting a locale suck
12:35:55 <mroman_> because parsing suddenly breaks on systems without LC_NUMERIC=en_US
12:37:16 <mroman_> elliott_: Redcode has that too
12:37:23 <mroman_> There's the nano hill with 5 instructions
12:38:17 <mroman_> BFJoust_Nano for <32, BFJoust_Mini for <100, BFJoust_Normal unrestricted
12:39:08 <mroman_> That doesn't mean large programs have no value
12:39:26 <elliott_> something like <256, <1024, <1M would be more reasonable
12:40:26 <mroman_> nano hills warriors are 100% evolved afaik :)
12:40:45 <mroman_> you just select a base strategy and set inital constants
12:40:55 <mroman_> and then feed it to an evolver and leat it tweak constants etc.
12:41:51 <elliott_> bf joust evolvers haven't given good results so far
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12:58:16 <mroman_> I just made a first attempt
12:58:23 <mroman_> then tweaked constants for offsets and decoys
12:58:33 <mroman_> and just by that you can loose or win 10 places
12:58:49 <mroman_> that tweaking of just constants could be automated I'm sure
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13:03:04 <elliott_> that isn't quite full evolving
13:03:14 <elliott_> ais523 already partially automates that, I think
13:16:01 <mroman_> it's not full evolving yes
13:16:15 <mroman_> but you can just write (>)*x([-].>)*x etc
13:16:22 <mroman_> and it will find out what's best
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13:57:20 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny_tuned >(+)*12>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*0(>)*4(>[(-)*10[.+]])*21
13:57:22 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny_tuned: points 0.64, score 20.47, rank 18/47
13:57:26 <fizzie> fizzie_tiny dropped off the hill, and since you were talking about automatic constant tuning...
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14:06:53 <boily> Sgeo: Sgello. thanks for the olist.
14:10:23 <Bike> which one was the homestuck list, well, whatever
14:14:00 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny_tuned: points 2.00, score 21.33, rank 16/47 (+2)
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14:19:17 <boily> mroman_: I just pushed the updated wisdom, with (somewhat) all your updates.
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14:48:47 <boily> mroman_: all your modifications to the `learndb and suchlike in the past few days.
14:49:28 <mroman_> and where did you push them?
14:50:31 <boily> to dropbox, as seen in the nice /topic, or to a private repo on github to which you probably have access.
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15:49:46 <mauris> does anyone know who wrote the second program here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge#.22Hello_World.21.22_in_Malbolge
15:50:31 <mauris> i was under the impression that you needed like, five weeks of cryptanalysis and brute force in order to write a five-megabyte program to do this. i'm quite amazed
15:55:07 <mauris> mmm, User:ErichS8 on wikipedia added it
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15:57:10 <fizzie> It's not *that* hard, there's e.g. http://matthias-ernst.eu/malbolge.html to generate simple text-printing programs.
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16:01:54 <fizzie> There does not seem to be any description about the history of the Wikipedia example, though.
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18:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[$tonePits]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40544&oldid=38318 * 98.219.173.28 * (+3) Fixed some grammar/spelling mistakes. I have a feeling the writer of this page is ESL (English Second Language), and the page could use some more work, but I think I still helped clarify it a bit.
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18:49:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pancake Stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40545&oldid=37603 * Quincunx * (-4) Fix Syntax error in Hello World. Switch is not valid, you wanted Flip
18:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pancake Stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40546&oldid=40545 * Quincunx * (+127) /* Syntax */
18:56:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
18:56:35 <Bike> anyway it's happening etc
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18:59:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pancake Stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40547&oldid=40546 * Quincunx * (+47) Added an interpreter
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19:06:52 <CrazyM4n> Hey, what´s a paste service that doesn´t wrap lines?
19:07:42 <CrazyM4n> Thanks, I couldn´t remember the name to it
19:09:45 <CrazyM4n> Gotta love cloud -> butt http://prntscr.com/4qvobv
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20:00:28 <HackEgo> 53 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>+.>.-..++++++. [85]
20:00:32 <J_Arcane> O_O http://neurokernel.github.io/index.html
20:01:06 <GeekDude> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++<<-]>+.>.-..++++++.>+++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++<<-]>+.>.-..++++++.>+++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++<<-]>+.>.-..++++++.>
20:13:48 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++<<-]>+.>.-..++++++.<.>-----.-..++++++.<.>-----.-..++++++. that was HORRIBLY suboptimal what you did there
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20:27:19 <mauris> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]+++[->+.->.-..++++++.-----<<] same to you!!
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20:32:11 <zzo38> Do you have any METAFONT files for mahjong, and for Japanese hiragana and katakana?
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21:29:23 <AndoDaan> Anyone here familiar with the Chalcraft-Greene train track automaton: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chalcraft-Greene_train_track_automaton
21:32:10 <Bike> i kind of doubt that, but hey, ian stewart!
21:33:41 <AndoDaan> Definitely should know about him. I'm terrible.
21:34:00 <Bike> no, knowing too many things is terrible.
21:34:11 <Bike> anyway, did you have some kind of question, or what? i'm looking at the pdf now.
21:35:17 <AndoDaan> Yeah. They mention there are two kind of junctions, but sometimes three (the flipper one being third). And I wanted to be clear if two were enough for a turing complete language.
21:35:35 <AndoDaan> Like if you could make the flipper junction out of the lazy and stuck one.
21:36:11 <AndoDaan> I don't think it's just me, I think the paper and articles on http://www.zillions-of-games.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cgi?do=show;id=1008 are confused
21:37:33 <AndoDaan> (I'm thinking/making a language of it, and of course I'll put in extra 'commands', but it would be nice to get the fundementals right.)
21:41:07 <Bike> well, the pdf doesn't mention the third junction in its turing machine construction
21:42:35 <Bike> actually it doesn't mention flippers at all. what's a flipper
21:42:41 <Bike> (unless i'm missing it)
21:44:00 <AndoDaan> When I first learned it, and it's in the zillion game version, a flipper is with input A and output B and C: the train enters A, leaves B. Then the track flips to C. Train enters A leaves C. then back again
21:44:13 <AndoDaan> You can never enter B or C. only leave.
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21:45:12 <Bike> yeah, that's not in the pdf.\
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21:46:09 <Bike> as far as i understand lazy points, you have entrance/exits: feed, siding1, siding2. entering siding1 always exits from feed. entering siding2 always exits from feed. entering feed exits from whichever siding was most recently entered from (or some initial value).
21:46:19 <Bike> that and sprung points are all they use
21:46:40 <AndoDaan> Seems amazing that that is enough.
21:46:56 <AndoDaan> Well, stranger things have happened. SKI
21:47:33 <Bike> i mostly wrote that out because i'm not familiar enough with physical trains to understand their description without thinking about it :V
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21:47:57 <Bike> it seems reasonable to me. in electronic terms it's like a latch.
21:48:09 <AndoDaan> Yeah, I only got some grip on the concept with the Zillion game implementation.
21:48:10 <Bike> (it's weird that terminology has evolved such that "latch" is electronic)
21:48:49 <Bike> i have the sudden urge to read shannon's paper showing that boolean logic can in fact be done in circuitry.
21:48:58 <AndoDaan> Is a latch related to NAND? (I just know that NANDs are all you need for a computer)
21:49:14 <Bike> Not really. It's also called a "flip-flop".
21:49:23 <Bike> It's basically one bit of state.
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21:49:38 <Bike> or a bistable multivibrator, if you like using big important sounding words
21:49:47 <zzo38> A latch can be made out of NANDs
21:50:08 <zzo38> (I believe two NANDs is sufficient to make a simple latch)
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21:50:18 <Melvar> Bike: That term tended to get giggles when I heard it.
21:50:49 <Bike> see, because sex,
21:51:04 <Bike> i think you can do a latch with two crosslinked nands. nors definitely work.
21:51:27 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SR_Flip-flop_Diagram.svg there we go.
21:51:47 <Bike> i had a test on this less than a year ago, but remembering things is hard
21:51:51 <fizzie> Note the inverted set and reset signals, though.
21:51:58 <fizzie> Or "active-low", whatever.
21:53:18 <Bike> MIT lets me view a "preview" version which is the whole text but not "printable". oh no, i guess
21:54:45 <AndoDaan> Alright, thanks for you help. I guess the fundamentals is not that important to me, because the base language will definitely have flippers junctions.
21:55:07 <Bike> "It is, of course, always possible to analyze any given circuit by setting up all possible sets of initial conditions and following through the chain of events so instigated."
21:56:14 <GeekDude> if you have all possible initial conditions you can just make a list or input/outputs and pretend
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22:21:44 <Bike> AndoDaan: ok, i messed up. you do need a flipper. they construct one in the paper out of sprung and lazy points, with the caveat that you need infinitely many.
22:22:10 <Bike> they also called making one 'an infuriating problem' which matches with my wasting three pages of paper on it
22:22:13 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like unfinished sentences in software manuals?
22:22:13 <fungot> b_jonas: as the scene and inspiration of the romance. such an one had nothing to do. these objects moved intelligently about the great abyss; down whose sides paths, improved by the old ones, and the
22:22:27 <fizzie> Software manuals: so romantic.
22:22:28 <AndoDaan> :) Thanks that you kept on looking.
22:22:43 <b_jonas> from that it seems fungot does like unfinished sentences, he makes them
22:22:44 <fungot> b_jonas: naturally, danforth and i, by the jewish writer using the fnord " fnord" the reader toward a suitable degree of smirking optimism. but it is only at night when the moon is dark, and said to be
22:22:51 <Bike> "this will be fun" i thought, "very educational"
22:22:55 <AndoDaan> Makes much more sense this way.
22:23:19 <AndoDaan> Is a flipper what they call a distributor?
22:23:33 <Bike> which i didn't notice my first look through.
22:23:35 <fizzie> fungot: How come you can't figure out paragraphs in text ever?
22:23:35 <fungot> fizzie: earl sawyer now took the telescope and strained his vision to the utmost extent. selling a portion of the cemetery. the man of 1928, a vague report went round of things that should be dead. a boat put off, and visible only because of the remote and alien world he had chosen it, how he had seized robert, son of godfrey,
22:23:42 <AndoDaan> I really couldn't decipher that, above my paygrade
22:24:13 <Bike> "Let us suppose the existence of a distributor D, which has two outputs, 0 and 1, and one input. Trains sent in the input come out of 0 and 1 alternately."
22:24:15 <b_jonas> what? no, a flipper is foot fins used for swimming
22:25:22 <Bike> i like how they show you can avoid bridges, too
22:27:53 <Bike> though if you used it for traffic you'd get collisions.
22:28:45 <AndoDaan> Well, I'm planning on implementing multiple trains, so I'll have to account for that. (and on regular track as well of course)
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22:48:38 <Bike> shannon talks about proving theorems by "perfect induction", for example proving that x + y = y + x in boolean algebra by trying it for all values of x and y
22:48:41 <Bike> gonna call it that from now on
22:49:34 <mauris> huh, "trying it" how so
22:49:44 <AndoDaan> hmm, you can only prove x + y = y + x by induction, right?
22:49:58 <mauris> does it only work for finite domains
22:50:00 <Bike> it's boolean algebra, meaning 0 and 1 are the only values.
22:50:07 <copumpkin> AndoDaan: depends on what the type is :)
22:50:26 <AndoDaan> Yeah, I'm think natural number, but there's more to life than that.
22:50:41 <AndoDaan> or "can be less to life" than that.
22:52:14 <Bike> can be more or less to life. can be arbitrary amounts to life
22:52:59 <oerjan> i think the "induction" in "perfect induction" may be the philosophical concept, not the mathematical one
22:53:02 <Bike> can be seven to life.
22:53:55 <oerjan> as in, philosophical induction is deducing laws from examples, so "perfect" induction would be deducing a law by checking _all_ examples.
22:54:14 <mauris> oh, duh, this is just "proof by exhaustion" which i've heard lots before
22:55:00 <Bike> right, i just think the name is kinda funny.
22:55:05 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you can prove x + y = y + x pretty simply for cardinalities without induction
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22:56:00 <oerjan> basically, just make a bijection that maps from each side to the other
22:57:03 <mauris> oerjan: i.e. \(a, b) -> (b, a)?
22:57:11 <oerjan> :t let bij (Left x) = Right x; bij (Right y) = Left y in bij
22:57:21 <oerjan> mauris: no, that would prove x * y = y * x
22:58:38 <Sgeo> What are differences and quotients?
22:58:40 <oerjan> now prove x ^ (y + z) = (x ^ y) * (x ^ z) :P
22:58:55 <Bike> differences and quotients of what
22:59:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: not always well defined
22:59:06 <Sgeo> Either a b = a + b
22:59:16 <oerjan> oh i thought you meant cardinalities
22:59:47 <mauris> ooh, that's (Either y z -> x) <-> (y -> x, z -> x)
22:59:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think i saw a blog title on /r/haskell or thereabouts about that recently, but i didn't read it
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23:02:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think the basic problem with difference and quotients may be the same in types as in cardinalities: you don't have cancelation, x + y = x + z does not imply y = z
23:04:40 <oerjan> in fact one definition of infinity in cardinality theory is that a set is infinite if it's the same size as a proper subset of itself
23:06:09 <oerjan> which can be proved equivalent to it containing a copy of N
23:09:22 <oerjan> (i think you don't even need the axiom of choice, although slightly different formulations might)
23:16:43 <shachaf> oerjan: I think it becomes a lot more subtle without LEM though I don't really know the details.
23:17:14 <oerjan> oh i hardly ever consider that
23:17:58 <zzo38> newtype Nat = Nat (Maybe Nat);
23:18:12 <shachaf> You can end up with an uncountable subset of the naturals, or something like that, can't you?
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23:29:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: the basic difficulty is that you mustn't confuse ordinal power with cardinal power. they're two different operations that happen to coincide for finite arguments.
23:29:30 <shachaf> i remember reading http://math.andrej.com/2012/10/03/am-i-a-constructive-mathematician/
23:29:35 <shachaf> or maybe it was a different page
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23:40:03 <mauris> "It may happen that the reals are in 1-1 correspondence with a subset of the natural numbers, while at the same time they form an uncountable set." help
23:40:49 <zzo38> I don't understand either, since the reals have a larger cardinality
23:41:17 <Bike> presumably other definitions of some of the terms are involved.
23:49:19 <oerjan> answered a question without noticing i was in backscroll (and that it hadn't been answered)
23:49:58 <shachaf> Isn't it great how you scroll up up a page, and then people say a few lines, and you scroll down a page, and you're still in scrollback mode?
23:51:03 <shachaf> intuitionism is bizarre sometimes
23:55:02 <Melvar> At some point tswett rambled somewhere on a set theory with a universal set U, with the consequence that the power set of U is a proper subset of U.
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