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00:44:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:--C-=C-C--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40569&oldid=37040 * 173.218.113.43 * (+656) /* Turing complete? */
00:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:--C-=C-C--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40570&oldid=40569 * 173.218.113.43 * (+641) /* Turing complete? */
00:58:18 <elliott_> "The minimal programmatic facilities for Turing Complete require: Assignment to 0, Increment, While-loop with a test for 0." ??
00:59:08 <elliott_> "A game is some combination of the following indivisable elements: - skeleton - red key - score thing - magic door"
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02:08:30 <Sgeo> MealSquares look/sound delicious
02:08:56 <Sgeo> Should probably get a fridge. And shouldn't get too tempted to rely on them. They do claim to have a dietician on board.
02:24:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40571&oldid=17092 * Quintopia * (+167)
02:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40572&oldid=40571 * Quintopia * (+89) /* EsoCompilers */
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05:48:09 <Sgeo> "n any case, AOLserver serves HTTP -- web pages -- containing the usual static files as well as ADP (AOLserver Dynamic Pages) containing TCL intermixed with HTML."
05:48:16 <Sgeo> Sounds too close to PHP for my taste :/
05:51:13 <Sgeo> aolserver.com redirects to aol.com
06:30:36 <Sgeo> Apparently I am now treating MOBAs the way I treat languages
06:31:05 <Bike> god, not you too
06:31:12 <Bike> is everyone in my life going to play lol now
06:31:15 <Bike> is there no escape
06:31:44 <Sgeo> I'm not particularly interesting in LOL
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06:32:02 <Sgeo> Too complicated out-of-game progression + too expensive for full gameplay
06:32:20 <Sgeo> coppro: Dota/LoL-like games
06:32:44 <Sgeo> Some players of such games hate the term MOBA.
06:32:56 <Sgeo> But I don't really care, I need to refer to the genre somehow
06:56:18 <myname> Sgeo: that's actually a good reason to call it that
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07:19:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OnaBaragwanath * New user account
07:31:21 <mroman_> LoL can't be reasonably be played without investing money
07:31:35 <mroman_> or compensating lack of money with a lot of time to get the stuff you need
07:32:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Remember when I said I'll take care of it yesterday? I LIED.
07:32:29 <mroman_> myname: It is written left to right
07:32:45 <fizzie> And now I have to get going again so sorry good luck hth
07:33:07 <mroman_> b_jonas: j is swap, J is dup, vv is pop, x/ is rotate top three, #< is reverse stack
07:33:25 <b_jonas> mroman_: is there a rotate to three backwards?
07:33:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: and is there a dup second from top, dup third from top, and dup using a number (called pick in forth I think)
07:34:08 <fizzie> oerjan: (I'll be back home in Finland around midnight; if I don't immediately fall asleep, I'll get it done then.)
07:34:12 <b_jonas> I think pick would be the most useful
07:34:31 <mroman_> which dups second from top
07:34:49 <mroman_> {vv}c! dups second from top {vvvv}c! dups third from top
07:35:06 <mroman_> b_jonas: stack manipulation commands are relatively new in Burlesque
07:35:19 <mroman_> because initially I didn't like them because they make the language more stack-based than concatenative
07:35:23 <b_jonas> mroman_: but then how do you handle local variables if you don't have commands like that?
07:35:30 <b_jonas> is there some way other than stack manipulation?
07:36:06 <mroman_> although you do have random access to the stack
07:36:26 <mroman_> #s2!! duplicates the second element on the stack
07:36:33 <b_jonas> man, how do you even write programs in this language?
07:38:14 <mroman_> actually with #S and #s you can do arbitrary stack manipulation
07:38:47 <mroman_> #s gives you the stack as a list
07:38:54 <mroman_> and with #S you can replace the stack with a list
07:39:01 <mroman_> reversing the stack is actually
07:39:16 <mroman_> (but #< already does that)
07:39:24 <mroman_> you can remove the last element of the stack with
07:39:31 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:40:14 <mroman_> #s~]#S removes the last element on the stack
07:42:58 <mroman_> for golfing jJx/ is usually enough
07:43:41 <mroman_> b_jonas: It gets even worse with maps/filters
07:44:18 <mroman_> ^now add that 5 to every element of the list
07:44:20 <b_jonas> but how do you even translate/compile ordinary programs into this? how do you access local variables in functions?
07:44:34 <b_jonas> this is a strange language
07:44:42 <mroman_> you have to inject state into functions
07:44:44 <b_jonas> I think I understand now why it's considered an esoteric language
07:44:50 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}#r#r#s
07:45:21 <b_jonas> I don't understand how you're supposed to program it idiomatically, but I understand it's not just an ordinary language with strange spelling of the builtins
07:45:41 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV#s
07:45:51 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}#s
07:45:54 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}#s[+
07:45:54 <blsqbot> {.+ {{.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}}
07:45:58 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}[+#s
07:45:58 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: ([+) Invalid arguments! {.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}
07:46:05 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}_+#s
07:46:05 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments! {.+} 5 {0 1 2} 4 2 1}
07:46:07 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j_+#s
07:46:11 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j_+m[
07:46:12 <blsqbot> {5 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! 0 5 ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid
07:46:19 <b_jonas> I've seen MV but that doesn't copy, it moves. it's destructive. how do I re-use a variable?
07:46:23 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}_+
07:46:23 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!
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07:46:36 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}jbx+]#s
07:46:40 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]#s
07:46:42 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]#sm[
07:46:42 <blsqbot> {1 2 4 {0 1 2} {5 .+} 5 1 2 4 {0 1 2} {5 .+} .+}
07:46:46 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}3MV{.+}j+]m[
07:47:02 <mroman_> you have to load the 5 and build your add function with list manipulation stuff
07:47:34 <mroman_> !blsq 1 5 2 4 {0 1 2}#s3!!{.+}j+]m[
07:47:40 <mroman_> that would be non destructive
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07:48:19 <b_jonas> and can you make functions? I think there's an eval primitive, like in dc
07:49:21 <mroman_> a List is just code that is not evaluated
07:49:44 <b_jonas> so it's sort of like postscript or dc
07:50:14 <b_jonas> except without variables, so you have to use crazy stack manipulation.
07:50:19 <b_jonas> or something else that I don't know about yet
07:50:33 <mroman_> although they will be global in scope
07:50:45 <b_jonas> those are useful for shortcuts, yes
07:51:08 <mroman_> I could pushScope, popScope commands
07:51:24 <b_jonas> no, just add short stack manipulation
07:51:54 <mroman_> I'm planning to add a newEnv command
07:52:03 <mroman_> which executes a function in a new environment
07:52:39 <mroman_> ^- fibonaccy with 1 2 at the bottom
07:52:54 <mroman_> ^- crap. !C reverses the WHOLE stack
07:53:06 <mroman_> which may suck in certain situations
08:02:59 <b_jonas> I think for global variables I can already use values hidden at the bottom of the stack, there's some primitives for that
08:03:27 <b_jonas> but the lack of a pick is annoying, when clearly the language acn do that with #sj!!
08:03:46 <b_jonas> could you add a command for that just for brevity?
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08:07:22 <b_jonas> I see there's an ifelse builtin, that's good
08:08:04 <b_jonas> and a builtin iz? that checks for an empty list
08:08:13 <b_jonas> a builtin z? that checks for an empty list
08:11:34 <b_jonas> and I think I could add functions with states by prepending a list (which counts as a literal when executing) at the beginning
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08:12:03 <b_jonas> that means it is possible to translate every program I think
08:12:08 <b_jonas> even if it can be a bit inconvenient
08:12:21 <b_jonas> I might want to try to write a translator
08:12:58 <oerjan> of course it is possible it is TC hth
08:13:03 <mroman_> You can't use hidden stuff inside a map
08:13:37 <mroman_> because maps run on an empty new stack
08:13:52 <mroman_> b_jonas: There's a secondary global stack btw
08:14:03 <mroman_> that can be accesed inside maps and filters
08:14:11 <b_jonas> is there a command that pops a number and then pops that many values?>
08:14:25 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
08:14:41 <mroman_> Pp push to global stack, pP peek global stack
08:14:56 <b_jonas> I can make do with just vv then, but it could be a useful shortcut
08:16:53 <b_jonas> and is there something that explodes a list to stack elements pushed?
08:17:05 <b_jonas> I could simulate that with !! of course
08:17:10 <b_jonas> but I wonder if there's a shortcut
08:18:00 <mroman_> b_jonas: E! just evals n-times
08:18:13 <mroman_> b_jonas: p^ and ^p do that
08:18:21 <mroman_> they push every element in a list to the stack
08:23:37 <mroman_> I provide free Burlesque-support :)
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09:06:22 <fizzie> "You have used null (hh:mm)"
09:06:45 <fizzie> (had to stop at a cafe to charge a phone)
09:07:01 <mroman_> b_jonas: What are you doing.. if I may ask?
09:08:15 <mroman_> also in what language is ursala written?
09:09:52 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/NP7aUTl.jpg
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09:16:58 <oerjan> seeing these stupid security holes everywhere, i have a hunch that the first real cyber war is going to be rather short and nasty
09:19:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CarloLoving * New user account
09:20:37 <oerjan> mroman_: i think ion's link showed that windows command.com _also_ has a shellshock-like vulnerability
09:21:29 <oerjan> well, not quite as bad. you need to actually print the variable.
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09:22:47 <oerjan> but anyway, for each stupid hole that goes public after being undiscovered for years, the _real_ bad guys are going to know dozens that haven't been discovered.
09:37:08 <int-e> the conductor got knocked out by a microphone?! rather anticlimactic...
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09:38:06 <int-e> oerjan: sorry btw, I still don't know how you did PATH without any S at all, I still need one.
09:50:54 <mroman_> Why do people say python is good at math?
09:51:22 <mroman_> It almost feels like python must be really good at doing arithmetic right.
09:52:05 <mroman_> "Python is good at recursion."
09:56:35 <int-e> maybe it can be translated with "python comes with big integers by default"
10:01:04 <Patashu> if python was good at math it would be called adder
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10:38:34 <b_jonas> mroman_: because of libraries. like numpy.
10:42:57 <b_jonas> mroman_: dunno, I'm not really doing anything, I just tried to figure out what this language is, given that it has like five users, so that's populsr
10:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's 'good at math' in the sense that it a) has useful libraries and b) isn't MATLAB
10:55:05 <boily> you shouldn't mention the m-word as casually as you are doing.
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11:28:34 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
11:28:37 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
11:29:22 <oerjan> > nubBy(((==0).).mod)[2..]
11:29:24 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
11:29:51 * oerjan didn't know ghc's nubBy was inconsistent with haskell98
11:31:02 <oerjan> `slashlearn fnord/? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:33:19 <oerjan> this means the primes trick is _not_ portable in the mod version (whose test is not symmetric)
11:35:13 <int-e> oerjan: I had to sacrifice correctness for size in the primes golf problem, btw.
11:35:57 <oerjan> i suppose haskell2010 has weakened the specification enough (by leaving out the code) to allow both implementations, and theoretically but unlikely might make the gcd version fail too because it's not transitive.
11:36:15 <oerjan> int-e: but not in the power-of-2 one?
11:36:45 <int-e> oerjan: in that one, too, but less egrogiously
11:37:15 <oerjan> i guess that explains why i didn't see a way of shortening them.
11:37:58 <oerjan> int-e: i think one may be supposed to add " (cheat)" to such contributions.
11:39:23 <oerjan> although i suppose if it's a fixed output to produce it might not be as much of a cheat as if you're making it work on only given input.
11:39:57 <int-e> right, those tasks are just data compression
11:41:48 <int-e> actually I can do the power of 2 one without cheating at all, in the same size, it'd just be slower.
11:43:51 <oerjan> 's a shame, i think my 55 version is so elegant :(
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11:49:00 <int-e> (about twice as slow according to the golf server, so not too bad)
12:12:47 <mroman_> anagol tasks are data compression, true
12:13:00 <mroman_> it only needs to work for the specified input, nothing more, nothing less
12:19:41 <mroman_> it also only needs to work on anagol
12:19:47 <mroman_> and it doesn't need to work 100% of the time
12:20:12 <mroman_> just submit them a thousand times until something randomly points to something randomly that you can use
12:22:08 <int-e> . o O ( head -c12 /dev/urandom )
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13:06:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GraceDeffell * New user account
13:24:24 <zemhill> mroman_: System busy; ask again later.
13:38:30 <zemhill> mroman_: System busy; ask again later.
13:40:11 <oerjan> mroman_: if it's like the previous time, then the system has got into a state that triggers a bug.
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13:49:10 <fizzie> I'm at an airport with a free 30min wifi that doesn't even work in the tablet.
13:49:42 <fizzie> I can try a quick restart but it probably is stuck similarly again.
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13:50:45 <zemhill> oerjan.meow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
13:51:22 <fizzie> Now it wasn't [BNow a restart helped.
13:51:22 <fizzie> Probably a different permutation of programs that didn't trigger it.
13:51:23 <fizzie> At least I have one set of programs that should reprodcuuce the bug.
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14:15:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-): not found
14:15:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:16:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
14:16:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/:-D: No such file or directory
14:16:31 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:16:34 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:17:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust iwonder (()*10000)*10000
14:17:41 <zemhill> Lymia.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47
14:17:43 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:17:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust iwonder ((()*10000)*10000)*10000
14:17:50 <zemhill> Lymia.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47 (--)
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14:34:03 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder ()*(-1)*-1
14:34:06 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47
14:34:28 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (()*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:34:31 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
14:34:42 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)).
14:43:36 <mroman_> and it's better than lymias!
14:43:49 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder ((>[-])*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:43:52 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
14:44:07 <zemhill> mroman_: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
14:44:11 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (<)*(0)*-1
14:44:12 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -32.05, score 3.60, rank 47/47 (--)
14:44:13 <quintopia> fizzie: how is mroman_'s atrocity being interpreted here?
14:44:53 <quintopia> in the sense that a poor turn of phrase can be called "an atrocity on the english language" for instance
14:49:30 <mroman_> Can you go there by train?
14:49:59 <mroman_> fungot: make me a sandwich.
14:49:59 <fungot> mroman_: but he makes fun of me ' cause i never did
14:50:08 <mroman_> Yeah, you never made me a sandwich.
14:52:02 <fizzie> What are we talking about?
14:52:04 <fizzie> (I hackered myself another 30 minutes of wifi time.)
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14:53:47 <mroman_> !bfjoust iwonder (()*(-1)*-1)*-1
14:53:49 <zemhill> mroman_.iwonder: points -13.36, score 9.28, rank 47/47 (--)
14:54:26 <mroman_> Either that or about some hypothetical city named atrocity.
14:57:56 <b_jonas> j-bot: ,(l$'o '),.~(?l$4){"0 1(l=.24)$4]\'\_|-/'
14:57:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o/ _o_ \o/ -o_ _o_ -o/ |o/ _o- \o_ |o_ _o_ _o_
14:57:57 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | |
14:57:59 <myndzi> /| |\ >\ /< |\ /| /'\ >\ /´\ /`\ /| /|
14:59:58 <j-bot> mroman_: |value error: wd9
15:00:15 <j-bot> mroman_: |ill-formed number
15:01:09 <b_jonas> [ ('no';'yes'){::~*# 'are shortcuts currently enabled on this channel?'
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15:02:22 <fizzie> As far as I know, that's the same as ((-)*-1)*-1 which is functionally equivalent to (-)*-1.
15:03:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, that bot does J, not K
15:03:29 <fizzie> The ()* isn't followed by a number so it's taken as ()*0 and the "-1" is just "-".
15:03:36 <myname> b_jonas: despite his name? that took me by surprise!
15:03:50 <mroman_> Is that some creepy J like thing too?
15:04:33 <b_jonas> mroman_: it's another crazy apl-like that takes itself a bit more seriously than J
15:04:40 <b_jonas> it's used a bit in finance industry
15:04:52 <b_jonas> it has arithemtic operations that don't check for overflow,
15:05:10 <b_jonas> semantically ordinary one-dimensional lists (instead of apl-like multi-dimensional lists)
15:05:31 <mroman_> They seem pretty serious about it
15:05:35 <b_jonas> well, some people consider J serious
15:05:59 <mroman_> But you consider K serious?
15:06:18 <b_jonas> as in, people actually use K for work to earn money
15:06:26 <b_jonas> and do computer science research with it
15:06:30 <myname> i thought J is dead serious
15:06:46 <b_jonas> as in trying to write partial compiler for it (which is kinda hard for such dynamically typed languages)
15:07:16 <b_jonas> you know, J and K are both so much dynamically typed that you might not even know in advance which parts of a statement are verbs and which are nouns
15:07:39 <b_jonas> it could change between multiple executions of the same line, though in typical programs it does not
15:07:43 <b_jonas> so it's impossible to compile
15:08:19 <b_jonas> more than languages where you just don't know if a value is a function or an array or a number or a string
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15:08:39 <mroman_> Burlesque is so serious it's got multi-threading
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15:08:45 <b_jonas> despite that, some guy actually worked on a compiler to compile much of practical programs
15:08:55 <b_jonas> where it's usually possible to infer most of the stuff automatically
15:09:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: what? does blsq even have linear-time indexable vectors and fast searching associative arrays yet
15:09:35 <b_jonas> I thought you said it didn't care about performance, or something
15:09:39 <mroman_> linear-time indexable vectors?
15:10:36 <mroman_> 1.7.4 at least has Map as a new data type, yes
15:10:41 <mroman_> which is an associative array
15:10:44 <b_jonas> I mean constant time indexable vectors
15:11:29 <b_jonas> man, this office internet access sucks so much that sometimes I wonder if I should buy a mobile internet for myself and route irc and other low-bandwidth stuff through it
15:11:53 <mroman_> but no @constant-time indexable
15:12:18 <mroman_> that be mostly useless anyway
15:12:26 <mroman_> since for accessing stuff you have to duplicate it first
15:12:34 <mroman_> duplicating a vector is probably O(n) then anyway
15:13:06 <mroman_> I might as well add IORefs
15:13:20 <mroman_> i need IO anyway for MVars
15:14:49 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, may I ask why you want threading in first place?
15:15:18 <mroman_> to spawn shell processes etc.
15:15:44 <b_jonas> oh! you mean to shell out to saner languages?
15:15:57 <mroman_> but also for multi-treading stuff
15:16:02 <mroman_> I have no idea what that stuff is
15:16:29 <b_jonas> great! so I can just call a C++ compiler and compile and execute whatever I want, and I don't have to program any blsq for that
15:17:16 <mroman_> that's not what you're supposed to do
15:17:25 <mroman_> `ls -lah` | grep foo stuff then in blsq
15:17:26 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- '`' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
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15:18:56 <mroman_> anyway. Burlesque is also a joke language
15:19:02 <mroman_> and having threads sounds kinda funny
15:19:14 <mroman_> it increases the wtf-is-that-factor a lot
15:19:34 <mroman_> you could write an IRC-Bot in Burlesque
15:19:43 <mroman_> (which you currently can not)
15:21:48 <mroman_> for all I care 1.7.5 will have an xml parser
15:21:57 <mroman_> but let's focus on 1.7.4 for now
15:26:35 <mroman_> b_jonas: It's mostly to screw with people asking for what it can't do and what it can do
15:26:50 <mroman_> and at some point somebody asks "can it download a file from the internet"
15:26:54 <mroman_> and the current answer is no
15:27:26 <mroman_> that might change some day
15:28:43 <myname> mroman_: you should definitly make some kind of interactive tutorial for blsq
15:30:38 <b_jonas> mroman_: so will 1.7.4 have mutable arrays?
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16:30:14 <Melvar> @let type ($) f a = f a
16:34:17 <Melvar> > Just Nothing :: Maybe $ Maybe a
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16:57:02 <mroman_> b_jonas: that could happen, yes
17:08:17 <Melvar> newsham: @let is a lambdabot command.
17:14:08 <newsham> right. i knew about ?let func decl and ?let data decl. i hadnt seen ?let type
17:16:22 <Melvar> So what I’m wanting to know is why I haven’t seen type-level ($) before.
17:19:02 <newsham> maybe suggest on haskell-cafe or #haskell ?
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19:30:00 <fizzie> ooh, Helsinki airport wifi works here outside at the bus stop too
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21:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flow chart]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40573 * Tastyfish * (+169) Created page with "flow_chart is an interpreted language that takes raster images of flow charts as its input. It is currently a work in progress (https://github.com/drummyfish/flowchart)."
21:03:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40574&oldid=39918 * Tastyfish * (+17)
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22:04:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e btw you also had an i that could be removed, and for the same reason: i is equivalent to d if it's going to be applied only to an already evalutated function.
22:05:09 <ais523> btw, anyone interested in what the spambots are trying to do, we have a separate "attempted recent changes" log for them here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog
22:05:38 <ais523> filter 1 should be automatically blocking them, but for some reason, it isn't
22:06:13 <ais523> "Remember These Tips When You Buy an Apple PowerBook G4 Laptop Battery"
22:07:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/5/diff/prev/33]])
22:07:08 <oerjan> personalized spam, all the rage
22:07:29 <ais523> fixed a typo in the filter name
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22:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/1/diff/prev/34]])
22:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/1/diff/prev/35]])
22:08:21 <ais523> just resetting filter 1, to see if it starts blocking them
22:08:42 <oerjan> was about to suggest. didn't you have trouble editing it before?
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22:09:20 <ais523> the problem with filter 1 is it catches so much spam that the software sometimes assumes it's broken
22:09:28 <ais523> even though it can only trigger on someone's very first edit
22:10:29 <ais523> btw, anyone who wonders what the spambots see, here you go: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning
22:10:47 <ais523> the spambots are definitely clicking "save page" on the resulting page, which is a trap button that /should/ block the person clicking it
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22:11:17 <ais523> normally I don't go for the red background on messages, but that one, it feels like it was warranted
22:11:31 <Sgeo> Could the trap button be made invisible to humans without spambots noticing?
22:11:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Not if the spambot is programmed correctly.
22:12:03 <ais523> those particular spambots? probably, but it'd be hard to set that up in a way that it'd only be invisible on pages where it should be, because it's a completely normal save page button HTML-wise
22:12:06 <ais523> spambots in generally, no
22:12:16 <Sgeo> Require a captcha to avoid seeing the button? *troll*
22:12:21 <ais523> these particular spambots aren't very clever, at least
22:12:28 <ais523> they still haven't figured out newlines
22:12:34 <ais523> almost all my filters rely on this fact
22:12:50 <ais523> it's been working well for years; if the spambots suddenly learn how to newline, I can add a different filter for whatever they change to
22:13:10 <Sgeo> I'm more scared for the innocent (but presumably illiterate) humans
22:13:31 <Sgeo> Well, or just tired, or or or
22:13:56 <ais523> they'd also have to make their very first edit to their own user page (rare, but possible), and use <br> tags but no newlines (very unlikely)
22:14:47 <oerjan> i think i saw at least one genuine user doing the first part recently.
22:15:09 <ais523> there are so many safeguards on that filters
22:15:18 <ais523> there are various weaker versions of it that prevent the edit but don't block
22:15:21 <elliott_> ais523: I think I had to add that red :p
22:15:30 <ais523> (a legitimate user got caught in one of those a while back, I had to apologise)
22:15:40 <ais523> elliott_: well it's a) never been triggered by a non-spambot, b) doesn't actually work
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22:39:38 <oerjan> `learn Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire.
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22:40:06 <oerjan> hi there. you beat me you rascal.
22:40:27 <oerjan> (although i didn't actually try to improve it further. brain hurts enough.)
22:41:04 <oerjan> also for added hilarity all of the following are equivalent: `ci, `cd, and `cc.
22:41:53 <int-e> fun. let me figure out how your code works
22:42:29 <oerjan> it's an heir of the infamous count2 program in the distribution.
22:43:26 <int-e> that was my inspiration as well
22:43:53 <oerjan> yeah but you changed the structure a lot.
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22:46:11 <int-e> well, I focussed on the right `ci part, which gives me a continuation that applied to itself, restarts the loop. so the other `ci first became ``sii (and a couple more s-es), which was my 34 character version, and then I found various opportunities to optimize (in particular, replacing the two ``sii by variations of `ci again)
22:46:48 <oerjan> yeah ``sii is the "normal" way of getting a loop in unlambda.
22:47:23 <int-e> ```sii`ci is a weird mix of ```sii``sii and ``ci`ci.
22:47:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``sii`ci: not found
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22:48:55 <oerjan> i think i forgot one case when checking how your program worked - looking back
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22:50:09 <int-e> I had a version of the program that I understood but I lost it, the current one is one that resulted from too many "oh maybe it still works if I do *that*" steps ;-)
22:50:22 <oerjan> hm ok EOF is as expected
22:50:35 <oerjan> well i understand it >:)
22:50:49 <int-e> (I can trace the program manually and see that it does indeed work)
22:52:58 <int-e> oerjan: well, just for fun, remove the second 'd', and explain to me why you get so many colons in the resulting output :)
22:53:36 <int-e> (Well, don't. I know why by now.)
22:54:30 <oerjan> it's because the two continuations take a bit of back and forth before the last one actually gets applied to itself.
22:55:10 <oerjan> and on each path through a : gets printed.
22:55:19 <oerjan> *through the first one
23:03:24 <int-e> oh, of course; `?:ird reduces to d if no colon was read, and that gives another way of doing if-then-else.
23:05:16 <int-e> I should've stuck to "successful" (which was what I wrote instead of "no colon was read" initially) ;-)
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23:12:34 <int-e> oerjan: too bad you couldn't get rid of the i in ```?:ird
23:13:51 <oerjan> i tried with ```@?:rd at some point but i couldn't get things right
23:35:28 <int-e> oh, wow, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?PATH/mitchs_1411597143&bf is evil; it triggers in the difference 'n'-'i' = 5.
23:38:36 <oerjan> and inexplicably that is the one _not_ marked cheat, right?
23:39:02 <int-e> because the cheating version is even worse :)
23:42:03 <oerjan> i'm sure that's precisely what all the sed versions do
23:42:35 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: the "non-cheating" version skips the next character and prints a newline if the difference of the previous two characters is 5.
23:43:57 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: the "cheating" one abuses the implementation (where by going left often enough, you can reach the program's source code) to encode the substring lengths in the source code itself, interspersed with newlines.
23:44:39 <int-e> I guess +[<+]< appears very frequently in brainfuck programs on the anarchy golf server
23:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?PATH/croyal_1411677162&java this guy is not very good at golf
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