←2014-10-05 2014-10-06 2014-10-07→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:40:59 <LordCreepity> `echo $SHELL
00:40:59 <HackEgo> ​$SHELL
00:41:09 <LordCreepity> v.v
00:41:10 <Bicyclidine> `run echo $SHELL
00:41:10 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sh
00:41:15 <LordCreepity> kk
00:41:23 <lifthrasiir> `run $SHELL -v
00:41:30 <Bicyclidine> you need to use `run if you want to do most shell things
00:41:37 <LordCreepity> kk
00:41:40 <lifthrasiir> `run $SHELL --version
00:41:40 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sh: 0: Illegal option --
00:41:54 <HackEgo> No output.
00:42:02 <LordCreepity> `run file="hello"; while read -r $file; do echo "$file" ; echo "everyone" ; done
00:42:32 <LordCreepity> `readlink /bin/sh
00:42:32 <HackEgo> dash
00:42:33 <HackEgo> No output.
00:42:36 <LordCreepity> ah
00:43:08 <Sgeo> http://www.nomyx.net/
00:43:26 <Bicyclidine> wow, -v is really verbose indeed
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01:19:22 <newsham> `run env f='() {;}; echo hi' echo x
01:19:23 <HackEgo> x
01:19:56 <newsham> `run env f='() {;}; echo hi' /bin/bash -c "echo x"
01:19:57 <HackEgo> ​/bin/bash: f: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ /bin/bash: f: line 0: `f () {;}; echo hi' \ /bin/bash: error importing function definition for `f' \ x
01:20:14 <newsham> `run env f='() {:;}; echo hi' /bin/bash -c "echo x"
01:20:14 <HackEgo> ​/bin/bash: f: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ /bin/bash: f: line 0: `f () {:;}; echo hi' \ /bin/bash: error importing function definition for `f' \ x
01:20:16 <shachaf> `run env f='() { true; }; echo hi' bash -c 'echo x'
01:20:16 <HackEgo> hi \ x
01:20:23 <shachaf> hth
01:20:27 <newsham> danke
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01:20:58 <shachaf> Probably not a big deal in HackEgo.
01:21:12 <newsham> i dunno.s omeone might inj on my irc cmds!@#
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01:34:32 <zzo38> Is there a suitable way in a C code that a function can skip a part of the calling function? (That would work in Windows, Linux, and other systems including non-x86; however, it is still GNU C.) In my case, in case of an error, it breaks into a debugger, and if the instruction it is in the middle of interpreting is skipped, to just go back and continue with the next one as if nothing happened.
01:35:33 <zzo38> Or maybe there is a better way
01:37:04 <Bike> longjumps?
01:37:26 <zzo38> I thought longjumps don't alawys work properly for some reason?
01:38:27 <Bike> that's pretty vague
01:39:43 <zzo38> Cygwin seems to not include any documentation about such thing anyways
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01:42:55 <Sgeo> Still, a lot of people have been sacrificed to that vending machine.
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01:44:32 <Sgeo> https://i.imgur.com/RFbQ5gY.jpg
01:44:32 <elliott_> um.
01:44:58 <Bike> do you ever wonder how they do that with their hair
01:45:06 <Bike> or eyes, or lack of nose, or
02:18:04 <newsham> longjump is standard. should be the same in gnu on linux, in cygwin and in visual studio in windows
02:18:22 <newsham> it sounds like you want exception handlers, but not using c++ execption handlers?
02:24:15 <zzo38> I am using C not C++
02:24:59 <zzo38> Is it possible in C anyways?
02:25:26 <newsham> if i understand correctly, longjmp should work
02:25:48 <newsham> in the caller you would if(setjmp(....)) { ... do stuff ... } ... stuff you want to skip to ....
02:26:10 <newsham> then in the callee you'd longjump, it would go back to the setjmp, but with a diff value
02:26:41 <newsham> oops, if(!setjmp(..)) { .. rather
02:26:48 <newsham> the firszt time setjmp returns zero.. goes into the if statement
02:26:59 <FreeFull> longjmp isn't very efficient
02:27:01 <newsham> when you longjmp, it goes back to the setjmp but you give another value except zero and it skips the iff
02:27:09 <zzo38> Cygwin doesn't mention it in the documentations at all though
02:27:12 <newsham> freefull: impl specific.
02:27:18 <FreeFull> True
02:27:20 <newsham> zzo38: cygwin supports it.
02:27:23 <Bike> zzo38: it's just standard c
02:27:24 <newsham> its standard
02:27:26 <FreeFull> It's not something that is used very often in C code
02:27:37 <zzo38> FreeFull: I am using it for a debug break though, so it doesn't need to be particularly efficient.
02:27:38 <newsham> see cygwin setjmp.h
02:28:13 <zzo38> newsham: O, but still I am using MinGW, not Cygwin; just MinGW doesn't have man pages.
02:29:00 <Bike> https://gitorious.org/mingw/mingw-runtime/source/fe345a084b4e3d16e691515fed9c82910209c2ff:include/setjmp.h#L40 looks reliable
02:29:30 <zzo38> Yes, I see I do have setjmp.h
02:32:13 <zzo38> It says it might not work on Alpha, but I don't care much about that because the header file isn't part of the distribution of the program; if you want to compile it on a different computer it is your job to use a proper header file.
02:32:42 <zzo38> I will try to look in Wikipedia to see if it has a proper document perhaps?
02:33:35 <Bike> just use setjmp and complain to the implementors if it ain't workin
02:36:55 <zzo38> In my case it might work even to simply ignore the return value of setjmp
02:37:46 <zzo38> Or perhaps: while(setjmp(buf)); Is such a thing necessary or not?
02:38:10 <zzo38> I don't even know if it would work at all, actually.
02:46:29 <zzo38> Wikipedia does say it is permitted to use it as the condition of if, switch, and iteration with or without "!" at front and it is also allowed to use as a statement by itself and ignore the return value.
02:47:55 <Bike> newsham just suggested that pattern to emulate a try/catch sorta dealie
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02:49:42 <zzo38> I mean is it OK to call longjmp twice with the same buffer (as long as whoever calls setjmp doesn't return before that)?
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03:09:23 <zzo38> It does say "The values of automatic variables are unspecified after a call to longjmp()..." in some circumstances, but I don't need any of those circumstances anyways since I will reinitialize them in the beginning of the loop that comes right after the setjmp() call.
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03:13:40 <Sgeo> Do people here have an opinion on MealSquares/
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03:45:43 <quintopia> Sgeo: i considered doing the beta, but realized i didn't want to pay that much for food i might hate
03:46:14 <Sgeo> I'm considering it but I want a working fridge first
03:46:46 <Sgeo> Also worried it could be dangerous. Not really planning on living solely on it, but in terms of there's at least one nutrient they've put a lot of in, etc
03:47:11 <quintopia> if they drop the price when it goes into production, i'd reconsider
03:58:01 <Sgeo> Eh, I'm about to spend way too much on a hotel an hour from where I live, so
03:59:11 <zzo38> On ##C channel they told me that it is not allowed to longjmp to the same buffer twice, so I need while(setjmp(buf)); instead.
03:59:28 <zzo38> Do you know if there are other programs having such an empty loop like that?
03:59:50 <Sgeo> It doesn't look that empty to me
04:00:12 <Sgeo> Not very traditional, but it's not while(1);
04:00:14 <zzo38> Well, the condition is not empty; the body if the loop is empty, though.
04:00:50 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I've seen abuses of the condition with empty body as a joke.
04:00:52 <quintopia> there are plenty of such thing
04:01:00 <quintopia> in the IOCCC :)
04:01:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, in this case it isn't as a joke.
04:01:09 <Sgeo> Also saw the gozto --> operator as a joke... and then saw it in production code.
04:01:25 <zzo38> quintopia: I mean specifically set setjmp as the condition, though.
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04:01:38 <quintopia> zzo38: nope
04:02:33 <quintopia> zzo38: i would expect something like while(handle_events()); in production code maybe.
04:02:34 <Sgeo> Still less WTFy than [censored] for [duration of time censored]
04:03:11 <zzo38> quintopia: I have done things like that too, but cannot remember if I have seen it in other programs.
04:03:18 <Sgeo> I laughed when I heard it because it was so horrible
04:03:41 <shachaf> zzo38: while (*dst++ = *src++); is the classic strcpy() implementation.
04:03:50 <Sgeo> Wait, heard... something, but discoverd the censored thing myself
04:03:59 <Sgeo> I think the thing I heard was another similar instance
04:04:10 * Sgeo doesn't really remember
04:04:53 <quintopia> Sgeo: i don't get it
04:05:02 <Sgeo> quintopia: the gozto?
04:05:15 <Sgeo> It's x-- > 0, for example, just made to look like a single operator
04:05:29 <Sgeo> while(x --> 0) { /* stuff */ }
04:06:16 <zzo38> I believe POSIX says that while(setjmp(buf)); is explicitly allowed.
04:06:21 <quintopia> Sgeo: no, the censored
04:06:38 <Sgeo> Stuff I still probably shouldn't reveal in public due to being work related.
04:07:08 <quintopia> then don't even mention it at all?
04:07:15 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Mikuru.
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04:07:27 <Sgeo> Apparently that nick is classified... I mean registered
04:17:39 <zzo38> The while(setjmp(buf)); comes just before the main loop of the interpreter, and the first part of that main loop is to read the next instruction to execute, so it should work if the debugger then interrupts the execution of the current instruction (which it will only do if you tell it to do so).
04:18:10 <zzo38> For example I have while(dstackptr==512) debugger("Data stack overflow."); and then the debugger function might do if(pc_changed) longjmp(exception_buffer,1);
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04:51:50 <oerjan> @tell <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
04:52:03 <oerjan> no lambdabot?
04:52:07 <oerjan> int-e: !!!!!!!
04:53:01 <shachaf> i don't think that @tell would work anyway hth
04:53:07 <oerjan> oops
04:53:26 * oerjan wonders how often he's done that lately
04:53:36 <oerjan> if log searched worked, i could find out
04:53:40 <oerjan> *search
04:55:07 <oerjan> int-e: would it be too much to ask that @tell give an error message if the nick contains illegal characters?
04:55:14 <shachaf> i count a whole buncha occurrences in the past couple of years but don't have recent logs for this year hth
04:55:40 <shachaf> oerjan: At least @tell was "fixed" to make @tell nick: and @tell nick, work.
04:56:52 <oerjan> THAT DOESN'T HELP US ABSENT-MINDED CLODS
05:00:01 <oerjan> oh god reading the logs is annoying when you cannot @tell people
05:00:13 <oerjan> and "everyone" is sleeping
05:00:27 <shachaf> use memoserv hth
05:00:51 <oerjan> memoserv is so subtle that i have trouble noticing it when i get messages from it.
05:01:46 <oerjan> besides is just feels wrong
05:02:56 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
05:02:56 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, more than 10 per cent of all national laws, we can only guess at the moment, as pointed out in his report.
05:05:33 <shachaf> ^style
05:05:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
05:08:45 <oerjan> `dontaskdonttelllist
05:08:46 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ c​o​p​p​r​o​ m​y​n​a​m​e​
05:12:33 <oerjan> ok it's so annoying i'm going to skip the logs today.
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05:21:39 <shachaf> What is?
05:22:46 <zzo38> How common in C are structures that never have any variables of that type and are not used for anything else either (and also not in a header file or macro)?
05:25:46 <fizzie> `run echo 'int main(void) { int main(void) { return 1; } return 0; }' | gcc -std=c11 -pedantic-errors -x c - -o /dev/null
05:25:47 <HackEgo> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:18: error: ISO C forbids nested functions [-pedantic] \ <stdin>:1:22: error: ‘main’ is normally a non-static function [-Wmain]
05:25:52 <fizzie> oerjan: ^
05:26:31 <Bike> reminds me i got a bizarre looking linker error because the aseembler uses the opposite link annotation convention from C, or suchlike
05:27:24 <Bike> and my main ended up static. oops
05:28:07 <fizzie> Of course -pedantic-errors combined with a thing that doesn't show the error messages has its own drawbacks.
05:28:27 <Bike> a seem bler
05:30:42 <oerjan> fizzie: well ok but that disables _all_ gcc extensions doesn't it?
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05:31:13 <oerjan> shachaf: not being able to @tell.
05:38:12 <oerjan> `fetch http:/oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp
05:38:13 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `http'
05:38:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but STANDARD C.
05:38:22 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp
05:38:27 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 05:38:13 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/gcccomp [1386/1386] -> "gcccomp" [1]
05:39:07 <oerjan> `run chmod +x gcccomp; mv gcccomp interps/gcccomp
05:39:08 <HackEgo> No output.
05:39:31 <oerjan> `! c int main(void) { print("test"); }
05:39:33 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
05:39:43 <oerjan> `! c int main(void) { printf("test"); }
05:39:44 <HackEgo> test
05:39:53 <oerjan> `! c printf("test");
05:39:54 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
05:40:00 <oerjan> argh
05:40:30 <fizzie> That "does not compile." is the most user-friendly thing in the world.
05:42:33 <oerjan> `revert
05:42:36 <HackEgo> Done.
05:42:58 <oerjan> oh well it was a totally evil hack anyway.
05:43:13 <oerjan> and now the neighbor's dog is starting to bark, so my brain cannot do any more.
05:45:14 <oerjan> of course it stopped immediately when i gave up, which tells me this was a message from the universe (and also, that God is evil.)
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05:48:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: ugh
06:09:56 <zzo38> Do you like John Stump's music? Does anyone write more difficult music?
06:10:41 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does not compile."); }
06:10:42 <HackEgo> No output.
06:10:54 <lifthrasiir> well, what.
06:11:01 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does not compile.") }
06:11:02 <HackEgo> Does not compile.
06:11:13 <lifthrasiir> `! c int main(void) { printf("Does compile."); }
06:11:14 <HackEgo> No output.
06:11:28 <lifthrasiir> ah, oerjan had issued `revert
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06:36:29 <int-e> @tell oerjan Strange, the screen session lambdabot was running in died... no reboot, no core dump (err, ok,,
06:36:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:37:46 <int-e> @tell oerjan (err, ulimit -c says I don't get any core dumps, that's something worth changing...), no relevant OOM kills.
06:37:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:29:15 <int-e> @tell oerjan and now I have a cron job for restarting the screen session if it gets lost. let's wait and see how lambdabot fails next time.
07:29:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:55:54 <mroman_> morning
07:55:58 <mroman_> @messages-loud
07:55:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7d 7h 26m 21s ago: <mroman_> `learn "a b" is ab <-- we've always created multiword wisdom entries directly
07:55:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7d 7h 22m 58s ago: <mroman_> but it would be really huge if it were complete. <-- i'm secretly planning to split the table when it gets a bit wider.
07:56:09 <mroman_> what
07:56:12 <mroman_> those are old
07:58:01 <mroman_> fizzie: I guess B! can do that @char
07:58:43 <int-e> oh, sigh. lambdabot should *also* save its state regularly rather than when it exits.
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08:17:11 <fizzie> int-e: Do those messages ever expire?
08:17:31 <mroman_> I've already @messages-louded them.
08:17:36 <mroman_> That's what I meant by "old"
08:17:49 <fizzie> Yes, but they're also old chronologically speaking.
08:17:55 <mroman_> That too.
08:19:16 <int-e> fizzie: I don't think so, unless somebody wipes the state.
08:19:53 <int-e> fizzie: But the problem is that lambdabot died without saving its state, so we get the state from the time it restarted last before it died...
08:22:36 <mroman_> is it using acid-state?
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08:22:58 <fizzie> I was just wondering how many messages-that-will-never-be-read it has accumulated.
08:23:29 <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects
08:24:00 <mroman_> I guess if something breaks with acid-state you're really screwed.
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09:55:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Profischnell * New user account
09:55:48 <fizzie> Hmm.
09:56:09 <fizzie> Well, it's not quite a TwopartName.
09:56:27 <fizzie> (I switched the CAPTCHA question the other day.)
09:56:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Profischnell]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40577 * Profischnell * (+5963) Created page with "'''Good reasons Why you need to Understand some sort of Foreign language''' During the modern age, using globalization in it is top, understanding 1 or 2 extra 'languages' ha..."
09:56:39 <fizzie> Well.
09:56:51 <fizzie> That's not a good sign.
09:57:12 <fizzie> Though I suppose it could've been a human paid to spam. Didn't even trip any of the filters.
09:58:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should learn where the "this is a spammer" button is in the wiki.
09:58:44 <fizzie> ais523: Any tips?
09:59:18 <fizzie> I see there's a "block" link in RecentChanges, but I don't know what the standard settings for it are.
09:59:25 <ais523> fizzie: it isn't based on a bayesian filter or the like
09:59:40 <ais523> if you want to just block the user, hitting the block link takes you to a config page for the block
10:00:08 <fizzie> I know it isn't, but I thought it was quite effective against the automated ones.
10:00:11 <fizzie> Is that what we usually do?
10:00:18 <ais523> standard settings for something that is obviously a spambot, using a username, are a very long block (traditionally 24 years, but more recently normally indefinite), leave the autoblock on, deny account creation
10:00:45 <ais523> and no, the vast majority of our spam is caught by the spam filter, which is human-configured
10:00:57 <ais523> let me go look at that page to see if there's anything it's doing that humans would never do
10:01:10 <ais523> oh, ooh
10:01:13 <ais523> username matches the site it's spamming
10:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Profischnell]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
10:01:23 <fizzie> Well, maybe I did it right; who knows.
10:01:30 <ais523> that almost certainly means this is a one-off spambot
10:01:48 <ais523> I normally don't turn on "email disabled" because spambots have never in my experience actually sent one through the site
10:01:57 <ais523> and it gives a theoretical path to appeal a false positive
10:02:12 <ais523> the spam page itself also needs to be deleted
10:02:27 <fizzie> Oh, so it's email to the wiki admins? I wasn't sure what it was all about.
10:02:52 <ais523> if you have a verified email address and so does the target user
10:03:02 <ais523> you can email them through the site interface; you don't get to see their address, but they do get to see yours
10:03:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[User:Profischnell]]": Spam: content was: "[not very interesting]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Profischnell|Profischnell]]")
10:03:40 <ais523> incidentally, that spam structure looks quite easy to filter
10:03:46 <ais523> things like bolding lines but using no headings are unlikely for humans to do
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10:24:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: ping
10:43:15 <AndoDaan_> !blsq "hello world"1couN
10:43:15 <blsqbot> h
10:48:27 <boily> !blqs "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:48:35 <boily> sm.
10:48:37 <boily> hm.
10:48:43 <boily> can't type today...
10:48:45 <boily> !blqs "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:48:50 <boily> !blsq "and now for something completely burlesque"2couN
10:48:50 <blsqbot> an
10:49:06 <boily> !blsq "and now for something completely burlesque"13couN
10:49:06 <blsqbot> and now for s
10:49:30 <boily> ah. consecutive digits consecutively consecute.
10:59:32 <mroman_> hm?
10:59:37 <mroman_> !blsq "abcdef"2co#s
10:59:37 <blsqbot> {{"ab" "cd" "ef"}}
10:59:42 <mroman_> !blsq "abcdef"3co#s
10:59:42 <blsqbot> {{"abc" "def"}}
10:59:45 <mroman_> vs
10:59:48 <mroman_> !blsq "abcdef"3CO#s
10:59:48 <blsqbot> {{"abc" "bcd" "cde" "def"}}
11:01:11 <mroman_> !blsq "abcdef"3CO
11:01:12 <blsqbot> {"abc" "bcd" "cde" "def"}
11:02:22 <mroman_> !blsq "hi there"1cosp
11:02:23 <blsqbot> ["h", "\n", "i", "\n", "", "", "\n", "t", "\n", "h", "\n", "e", "\n", "r", "\n",
11:04:55 <mroman_> !blsq "hi there"' []
11:04:56 <blsqbot> "h i t h e r e"
11:04:58 <mroman_> hm
11:06:19 <mroman_> I should store my submissions
11:06:28 <mroman_> I sometimes forget how the hell I got 7B on something
11:06:45 <boily> note that I haven't read the burlespecification at all, and I'm forming haphazard mnemonics as to what's happening (extractor raccouN, small coshes, big COshes...)
11:06:59 <AndoDaan_> i try to do it, but then i get caught up and forget.
11:07:30 <AndoDaan_> parse your mnemonics
11:07:45 <AndoDaan_> !blsq "mnemonics"ps
11:07:45 <blsqbot> {ERROR: (line 1, column 10):
11:08:06 <AndoDaan_> !blsq {mnemonics}ps
11:08:07 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 14):
11:08:10 <AndoDaan_> blah
11:08:20 <mroman_> > length $ mnemonics"
11:08:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20:
11:08:22 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
11:08:23 <mroman_> > length $ "mnemonics"
11:08:25 <lambdabot> 9
11:08:27 <mroman_> it's odd
11:08:34 <mroman_> !blsq "mnemonics."ps
11:08:34 <blsqbot> {mn em on ic s.}
11:09:13 <mroman_> boily: there's racouN though
11:09:13 <AndoDaan_> hm what if a J was in there? could it be odd then?
11:09:19 <mroman_> !blsq "hi there""3"racouN
11:09:19 <blsqbot> hi
11:09:26 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: then, yes
11:09:39 <mroman_> !blsq "hi there""3"racoun
11:09:39 <blsqbot> "hi \nthe\nre"
11:12:20 <boily> @ask zui438s what the fungot have you done to the learndb.
11:12:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:12:21 <fungot> boily: mr president, mr president-in-office, i hope that it will be extremely vigilant and use the funds previously used to export ships and for joint ventures should in future be obliged to put rather unrealistic growth hypotheses and reduce the working hours of those who thinks that by approving this protocol. it is therefore not insensitive to that concern. since 70 of the money goes into the reserve and made specific refere
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11:12:57 <ais523> instead of spending money on exporting ships, we should spend it on unrealistic growth hypotheses
11:13:03 <boily> @ask oerjan there is stuff that has happened to the learndb. care to explain?
11:13:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:13:05 <ais523> interesting opinion…
11:13:28 <ais523> boily: I guess we could just revert to an old version, they're all online
11:13:37 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
11:15:18 <boily> ais523: indeed, but it's the easy way out. from what I grasp from the history, there's that “Atrocity”, and that big blob, and a few unimportant and/or uninspired things.
11:15:52 <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db.
11:16:04 <ais523> I think you could delete the entire learndb without losing much, really, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask
11:16:18 <ais523> which is why you asked oerjan rather than me, presumably
11:17:10 <boily> I asked these two mécréants because their names appear in the recent history. otoh, your opinion of the db is quite sane.
11:17:53 <boily> oh well. time to shower, bus, food, job, and all that daylight sort of thing.
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11:23:08 <mroman_> `? atrocity
11:23:09 <HackEgo> Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire.
11:26:09 <mroman_> wait. mroman_.slow is on 10 now?
11:26:11 <mroman_> wth happened
11:26:51 <Taneb> `? Ngevd
11:26:51 <HackEgo> DE2>@:8.U%ؾ\.E*nsBo.,o:Ԡ7`g(׀gjٌ-/7k+}<dF4K{d/ r<->B$ϋA9r,a0*ǫ^\өg/]4n߶G5j[HRI8.ۄy
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11:46:46 <b_jonas> apparently http://underhanded.xcott.com/ posted their judgings for last year's contest. they're probably trying to continue the ioccc tradition with how late they are.
12:03:48 <Lymia> Can someone explain to me
12:04:12 <Lymia> Why the pesudocode for SHA-2 on the Japanese Wikipedia has comments in English?
12:04:28 <mroman_> because
12:04:37 <mroman_> english is the language used in code.
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12:21:55 <Melvar> `url bin/?
12:21:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
12:55:51 <elliott_> Lymia: aren't english comments pretty normal in japanese code?
12:57:13 <Lymia> elliott_, rather.
12:57:16 <Lymia> The whole thing is in English
12:57:19 <Lymia> The whole pesudocode
12:57:26 <elliott_> ah.
12:57:31 <elliott_> japanese pseudocode sounds kind of odd.
12:57:40 <Lymia> Not unusual, but, I'd expect someone who can read English to be able to just use the English wiki.
12:57:58 <elliott_> my guess would be japanese programmers are just used to comments/keywords/etc. being english in code
12:58:02 <J_Arcane> I occasionally see code samples in Finnish, including the function names.
12:58:25 <elliott_> the programming world does not have great multilingual support :/
12:58:43 <elliott_> unless you count Fjölnir.
12:58:46 <J_Arcane> Alas no.
12:59:42 <J_Arcane> V. few non-English programming languages, probably because so much history is in the US.
13:00:37 <Lymia> Java and Scala both deal fine with Japanese identifiers
13:01:11 <J_Arcane> I think Haskell can do unicode, and Racket is as well.
13:01:33 <J_Arcane> I think the other thing is though is that I mostly find myself staring at OSS code, which is generally English anyway so that everyone can read it.
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13:06:33 <elliott_> imagine if programming first got popular in france or something
13:06:35 <elliott_> we'd be so fucked
13:08:21 <J_Arcane> There was actually a French version of BASIC. XD
13:08:53 <J_Arcane> Thankfully while Finland has invented at least one programming language, its creator was sane enough to do it in English as well ... XD
13:11:23 <b_jonas> elliott_: nah, actually programming words are pretty much the same in French, so it would look the same basically
13:11:30 <b_jonas> well, not quite
13:11:44 <b_jonas> some people actually use french words chosen specifically to look different from English
13:12:00 <elliott_> for !!purity!!, right?
13:12:37 <Melvar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages has a list.
13:12:59 <int-e> pureté?!
13:15:06 <J_Arcane> dammit, now I can't remember what it was called either.
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13:22:52 <J_Arcane> Ah hah! It was this one: http://www.survo.fi/muste/
13:23:59 <FireFly> All pseudo-code I've seen presented in courses, even by people insisting on using swedish CS terminology, have been in English FWIW
13:24:50 <mroman_> elliott_: learn french then
13:24:52 <mroman_> ain't so hard
13:24:55 <mroman_> just study it for 8 years
13:26:55 <J_Arcane> It only took me about a year to get pretty good at puzzling out basic written French. I was useless for spoken though.
13:27:48 <mroman_> I did it too @study 8 years
13:27:53 <mroman_> only took me three years to forget it all
13:28:19 <J_Arcane> Now I'm learning Finnish, because I live here.
13:30:01 <J_Arcane> And Haskell in my programming time. Because I like a challenge, I guess.
13:30:10 <Jafet> elliott: fucked by a swede, no less
13:31:24 <mroman_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_%28programming_language%29
13:31:27 <mroman_> this looks fun
13:31:39 <J_Arcane> Heh. A mad part of my brain just realized you could possibly express Haskell type declarations with Finnish suffixes instead of arrows ...
13:34:39 <J_Arcane> sanoa :: Merkkijonosta Merkkijonoon
13:34:53 <FireFly> You could invent the Haskell/Finnish relative of Perligata
13:35:47 <J_Arcane> FireFly: Oh my god, that is brilliant.
13:36:26 <mroman_> are you trying to force me to learn finnish?
13:36:29 <J_Arcane> :D
13:36:30 <mroman_> because god help me I will do it
13:36:43 <J_Arcane> One of us, one of us ... ;)
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13:37:21 <mroman_> Can't be so hard to learn if 6 Mio. people speak it .
13:38:18 <int-e> haha
13:38:25 <int-e> babys can do it
13:38:58 <J_Arcane> heh. I am in a *very* good course, but very intensive, and our class size is dropping out like new boot camp recruits.
13:39:01 <int-e> could fungot learn finnish?
13:39:02 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to express our positive, constructive suggestions in a recommendation three years ago, the commission is criticised for looking at things in a very unusual veil of secrecy finally going to agree on a common future for the many suggestions and ideas put forward by the commission is in favour of the data needed to develop criteria which can be studied at a later stage.
13:39:25 <FireFly> Depends on how you define "learn" and "finnish"
13:39:25 <int-e> I'll take that as a "maybe"
13:39:32 <Jafet> fungot could learn finnish faster than most of us
13:39:32 <J_Arcane> So, what fungot is saying is it doesn't understand Finnish either.
13:39:33 <fungot> Jafet: thank you very much for your support, must be to define rules and procedures have not been taken yet, the right priorities. the council has insisted on the objective of this regulation, ' fnord fnord est' or ' paper quotas' and that is a very unsatisfactory situation. i do not think this is an infringement. may i just give some clarification.
13:39:33 <fungot> J_Arcane: the answer is brief and clear. we must beware of placing contracts for research work on cancer and other serious diseases, as well as fnord fnord. i am prepared to discuss it.
13:40:08 <FireFly> "fnord fnord est"
13:40:11 <Jafet> (There should be a substantial finnish europarl, at least)
13:40:14 <FireFly> Very wise, fungot
13:40:15 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, we have to clarify this point, i should like to ask, of course, the geneva convention guaranteeing that no-one is sent back to india by the greek authorities will themselves rectify the undesirable situation that has faced many women with insoluble conflicts. for in the maastricht treaty, i would like to tell you that the commission must be present in decision-making bodies and chang
13:41:05 <FireFly> ^style
13:41:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:41:42 <int-e> ^style pa
13:41:42 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
13:41:56 <int-e> fungot please tell me this isn't as bad as it sounds
13:41:56 <fungot> int-e: i'd like to see one of the worst beatings i ever saw a man take was...
13:42:02 <mroman_> tuli tulli
13:42:06 <mroman_> i'm the fire wind
13:42:13 <int-e> ok, it is better than the sms fungot style
13:42:14 <fungot> int-e: ebony and ivory, i think he wants to meet you! we have a letter worthy of emperor akihito!
13:42:14 <J_Arcane> Kuusi palaa.
13:42:16 <mroman_> eh
13:42:17 <mroman_> tuuli
13:42:19 <mroman_> damnit
13:42:34 <J_Arcane> http://33.media.tumblr.com/e62fddefef8392c16134d851e2db473e/tumblr_mwytwhtGel1so4xnko1_500.png
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13:43:25 <FireFly> How accurate is that?
13:44:56 <J_Arcane> It is true. Those words are indeed synonyms (though "kuusi" -> "your moon", while correct, is obv. nonsense in most contexts not involving cheesy song lyrics)
13:47:34 <int-e> J_Arcane: do you have anything like the lion-eating poet in the stone den peom in Finnish?
13:47:39 <int-e> *poem
13:47:50 <J_Arcane> Also fun is that Finnish loooves to make similar sounding words as opposites.
13:49:01 <J_Arcane> To a Finn they sound perfectly distinct, but for an american, "kuuma," (hot) "kulma," (corner) "kylmä" (cold) for instance aren't always so clear if spoken in a hurry...
13:51:50 <mroman_> how hard is finnish?
13:51:59 <mroman_> on a scale from 1 to 3
13:52:13 <int-e> 4?... wait, which is the easy end?
13:53:03 <mroman_> 1
13:53:10 <J_Arcane> Jään bussilla. - I stay on the bus. Jään pois bussista. - I get off the bus (lit. "I stay away from the bus").
13:53:43 <Jafet> Kuusi, of course
13:55:00 <J_Arcane> :D Generally speaking, I'd say "harder than French, easier than Chinese".
13:59:09 <J_Arcane> The spelling is nice, at least. Some of the distinctions are hard for me to get write (Ä v. A, U v. Y), but as the Finnish writing system was essentially invented whole cloth, they were able to be completely consistent. Every word in Finnish is pronounced exactly as it's spelled.
13:59:31 <J_Arcane> Even dipthongs largely fall into place naturally if you just sound out the component vowels.
14:00:12 <int-e> nice typo.
14:00:46 <J_Arcane> :D
14:01:57 <FireFly> J_Arcane: perhaps they just don't see any reason to tell hot and cold apart :P
14:05:40 <J_Arcane> FireFly: The way I saw it when I took it in uni, was maybe in the days before the climate here started to warm it, 'hot' was just relative to 'not as bite-ass cold'. ;)
14:06:52 <mroman_> well... u is jast a u
14:06:55 <mroman_> and y is an ü
14:06:55 <mroman_> so
14:07:15 <mroman_> ä is something like a german ä
14:07:26 <mroman_> well
14:07:27 <mroman_> anyway
14:07:37 <mroman_> If I'm going to learn finish channel traffic here will increase
14:07:39 <mroman_> in finnish .
14:08:56 <mroman_> how many finns are in here?
14:09:39 <J_Arcane> I'm not a native, but I have emigrated to Finland permanently.
14:09:53 <mroman_> minä puhun.
14:09:59 <mroman_> why did you emigrate?
14:10:05 <mroman_> too hot in the US?
14:11:10 <J_Arcane> Married a Finn.
14:11:42 <J_Arcane> Though I was planning to emigrate after uni anyway; love and financial aid depts. conspired to hasten my escape.
14:12:36 <b_jonas> to where?
14:12:43 <b_jonas> ah
14:13:09 <J_Arcane> I probably wouldn't have picked Finland first if I hadn't met my wife though ... XD
14:24:17 <mroman_> aha
14:25:36 <fizzie> J_Arcane: It's also non-nonsense in a scifi context where people regularly own moons.
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14:27:14 <fizzie> Also I don't think "jään bussilla" means much anything; "I stay on the bus" would be "jään bussiin".
14:27:17 <ais523_> fizzie: or where planets are sufficiently intelligent that talking to them would be non-crazy
14:27:44 <mroman_> Sinun täytyy tehdä se!
14:28:46 <fizzie> The regularity of the Finnish phonology is a boon for us speech-recognizer-writers; our lab's doesn't even use a pronunciation lexicon, it just generates phoneme sequences from grapheme sequences with very simple rules.
14:29:52 <quintopia> ais523_: the only planet that comes to mind is Solaris, and talking to it is always quite crazy
14:31:20 <ais523_> I can think of one that can be talked to quite sensibly, but it'd be a spoiler to discuss it and I'm not sure what this channel's spoiler policy is like
14:31:47 <quintopia> spoil away
14:31:48 <ais523_> although "your" would be weird, because the planet in question has some degree of pronoun issues
14:33:07 <quintopia> J_Arcane: also, "I'm Your Moon" is a great song and not cheesy at all *harumph*
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14:36:28 <mroman_> are ais523_ and quintopia finns?
14:37:05 <quintopia> we aren't even the same *other* nationality
14:37:08 <ais523_> mroman_: no, I'm British
14:38:10 <mroman_> well.. then there's only fizzie and J_Arcane?
14:38:16 <mroman_> boily is french-ish.
14:38:20 <mroman_> that I know.
14:45:31 <fizzie> There are other Finns.
14:45:46 <fizzie> Less noisy ones, though.
14:46:38 <Taneb> I have a desk now!
14:47:55 <elliott_> J_Arcane: so in finnish, if you're staying away from somebody, you're getting them off?
14:48:06 <elliott_> quite the culture
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14:58:44 <quintopia> elliott_: they say absence makes the heart grow fonder. and science says it makes ejaculations more copious as well...
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15:46:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: ping
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17:31:39 <ais523> is there an appropriate channel for build system arguments/flamewars?
17:34:16 <fizzie> ##workingset is vaguely related: "Tool chain support and discussion for Posix(tm)-like operating systems | We cover the range of development tools (compilers, assemblers, linkers, makefiles, debuggers, developer applications & utilities, etc.)"
17:34:38 <fizzie> (It's where people on ##c send all the Makefile questions, I don't know anything else about it.)
17:34:56 <ais523> hmm, interesting
17:35:01 <ais523> maybe once aimake's finished, I'll take it there
17:35:09 <fizzie> Not exactly specific to build systems, just toolchainery stuff in general.
17:35:14 <ais523> actually, maybe I'll write a big "why aimake is better than…" article
17:35:21 <ais523> listing all the popular build systems
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18:12:52 <elliott_> hacker news bait
18:14:03 <ais523> elliott_: yes
18:14:15 <ais523> I wrote massive hacker news bait by accident a while back, and posted it to reddit
18:14:24 <elliott_> what was it?
18:14:25 <ais523> the hacker news thread was hilarious, the reddit thread a little more measured
18:14:31 <ais523> an article about memory management in C
18:14:36 <elliott_> that's, uh, surprising
18:14:38 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/blog/memory.html
18:14:55 <ais523> basically, because I think the reddit thread had more C programmers
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18:20:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: What about ping?
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18:36:27 <oerjan> @messages-
18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 59m 58s ago: Strange, the screen session lambdabot was running in died... no reboot, no core dump (err, ok,,
18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 58m 40s ago: (err, ulimit -c says I don't get any core dumps, that's something worth changing...), no relevant OOM kills.
18:36:28 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 7m 12s ago: and now I have a cron job for restarting the screen session if it gets lost. let's wait and see how lambdabot fails next time.
18:36:28 <lambdabot> boily asked 7h 23m 24s ago: there is stuff that has happened to the learndb. care to explain?
18:37:19 <oerjan> @tell boily are you referring to anything other than what i reverted because it was meaningless junk submitted outside the channel?
18:37:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:40:19 <oerjan> @tell <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
18:40:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:41:13 <oerjan> ...darn
18:41:23 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> it's most likely a buggy C interpreter <-- `cc interprets \n as newline, so you need to escape \'s. also it's useful becase `! c is currently broken for whole modules because gcc has become so flexible it accepts almost anything inside main (and i can find no option to turn allowing nested main() off.)
18:41:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:42:02 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Except options to exclude all non-standard extension wholesale.
18:42:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:42:18 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *+s
18:42:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:42:53 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
18:42:53 <fungot> oerjan: ben, your response. what the fuck?
18:42:59 <oerjan> *luck
18:44:24 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> I'd say remove the jconn entry, he doesn't come here anymore <-- good look making fungot support unbalanced parentheses in its ^prefixes, that was the whole reason i suggested giving idris-bot the ( prefix
18:44:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:44:24 <fungot> oerjan: you know, professional courtesy.
18:45:13 <elliott_> why'd jconn leave
18:45:32 <oerjan> too many other j bots, got crowded
18:46:06 <elliott_> also, I like fungot's responses there
18:46:06 <fungot> elliott_: couldn't you have just shot my mom or something?
18:46:12 <elliott_> um.
18:46:34 <oerjan> fungot may not be entirely sane.
18:46:34 <fungot> oerjan: pretty much, yeah. now say it in a girl voice. if you want.
18:46:51 <oerjan> OKAY
18:47:07 <oerjan> ^style
18:47:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa* qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:48:22 <elliott_> I guess it's just near-verbatim quotes.
18:51:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, ais was here, you could ask him the question about terminals, but it's too late, he's gone.
18:51:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I've heared
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19:09:54 <mroman_> fizzie: like who?
19:10:00 <mroman_> fungot sure isn't finnish
19:10:01 <fungot> mroman_: my favorite part about magic: the gathering is spitting on the people who play it. it took me a week to get this thing out of my ass.
19:10:10 <mroman_> `? fungot
19:10:10 <fungot> mroman_: i don't need to be quicker? " sega makes murder porn." we've had to scale back our plans for freelancer somewhat but what we've got has a lot of mail from people who feel that penny arcade lacks! oh! it could be worse.
19:10:10 <HackEgo> Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone!
19:10:24 <mroman_> what
19:10:32 <mroman_> sega makes murder porn?
19:10:41 <mroman_> is that even legal
19:11:33 <Gregor> Where can I acquire this SEGA murder porn >_>
19:12:59 <mroman_> Ah. right.
19:13:02 <mroman_> You're the porn guy
19:13:15 <mroman_> `? Gregor
19:13:16 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
19:14:05 <mroman_> `learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
19:14:07 <HackEgo> I knew that.
19:14:13 <mroman_> `? forty
19:14:14 <HackEgo> forty means "in a fort-like manner"
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19:14:46 <shachaf> It's an adverb?
19:18:02 <mroman_> yep.
19:18:15 <mroman_> but also an adjective
19:18:17 <mroman_> it's both
19:18:23 <mroman_> also
19:18:29 <mroman_> whats lapsi, lapsen, lasta, lapsia
19:18:29 <shachaf> He forty took them?
19:18:34 <mroman_> and what are "nominal types"?
19:18:41 <mroman_> shachaf: Exactly.
19:21:05 <mroman_> wait
19:21:22 <mroman_> finnish has >50 word categories that inflect differently?
19:21:25 <mroman_> are you nuts?
19:23:11 <nortti> we have?
19:23:16 <mroman_> I don't know.
19:23:17 <mroman_> but
19:23:25 <mroman_> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Finnish_nominal_inflection
19:23:48 <nortti> apparently we do, then
19:24:06 <shachaf> KOTUS numberwang
19:28:42 <mroman_> you do
19:28:44 <mroman_> so
19:28:50 <mroman_> I guess that's pretty much of a turn off then
19:29:10 <mroman_> I'm not learning THAT MUCH freaking inflections just to tease the non-finns in here
19:29:10 <shachaf> Why?
19:29:29 <shachaf> Well, if the Finnish speakers in here didn't know about it, why should you?
19:29:39 <shachaf> Learning the grammar of a language and learning the language are separate activities.
19:29:39 <mroman_> know about what?
19:30:27 <oerjan> mroman_: my guess is that they can be distinguished into (1) follows from relatively simple rules, and (2) are very few in number and so are what everyone else calls "irregular".
19:30:45 <mroman_> yeah but...
19:30:49 <mroman_> that's a lot
19:30:55 <mroman_> I think not even german has that many stuff to learn
19:31:04 <shachaf> English has more than 50 irregular things, I'm sure.
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19:31:49 <shachaf> speaking of which what's with hebrew plurals??
19:32:21 <Melvar> I don’t know about hebrew plurals, but I’m pretty sure they’re not as interesting as arabic ones.
19:32:36 <shachaf> why are arabic ones interesting
19:33:11 <mroman_> english conjugation is pretty much straightforward
19:33:12 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixes_in_Hebrew -- i wonder whether this counts as complicated
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19:33:23 <Melvar> There’s a bunch of different patterns how the broken plurals work.
19:33:26 <mroman_> nortti: but case endings are pretty much regular?
19:33:36 <mroman_> lik
19:33:39 <mroman_> -lla and stuff
19:34:06 <nortti> yea
19:34:27 <nortti> and most of the ones that are more complex still follow quite simple rules
19:34:27 <mroman_> i see
19:34:41 <mroman_> so these kotus things
19:34:49 <mroman_> are just for the 3 cases genitive, partitive and illative?
19:35:06 <nortti> hm? no, there are 14 (I think)
19:35:16 <Melvar> shachaf: Let me just at this moment insert the funniness that arabic borrowed the word “film” from the west, and because it has three consonants in a usual pattern, it was decided that it had to take a broken plural form, so the plural is “aflam”.
19:35:21 <nortti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language_noun_cases
19:35:50 <mroman_> but those are the -lla things
19:36:01 <oerjan> nortti: i don't think mroman_ was asking how many cases there are
19:36:18 <nortti> oh, ic séo
19:36:22 <Melvar> shachaf: “ʼaflām”, more correctly.
19:36:41 <mroman_> why does finnish_language_noun_cases list only one suffix
19:36:42 <shachaf> how many keeses are they? and are any of them not dutch?
19:36:45 <mroman_> or possibly two suffixes
19:36:48 <nortti> mroman_: I think only genetive, partitive and illative need to be shown, as other cases follow same logic as those
19:36:54 <mroman_> but some other page says there are 50 declension types?
19:37:00 <mroman_> nortti: ah. ic.
19:37:29 <oerjan> Melvar: well hebrew and arabic are both semitic languages, so there's no intrinsic reason why they couldn't share a particular insanity.
19:37:56 <mroman_> Is oerjan a finn too?
19:38:05 <nortti> norwegian
19:38:17 <Melvar> oerjan: Right, I just happen to know pretty surely that modern hebrew at least is much more regular in that regard.
19:38:19 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_plural suggests that this thing is most "productive" in arabic
19:38:21 <fizzie> mroman_: atehwa, Deewiant and ineiros are all Finnish, too.
19:38:59 <shachaf> I went to a Finnish picnic of sorts yesterday.
19:39:32 <mroman_> what are some other nationalities here?
19:39:38 <mroman_> what's shachaf?
19:39:43 <mroman_> british?
19:39:44 * shachaf is Finnish.
19:39:48 <mroman_> ah
19:39:57 <mroman_> damnit
19:39:59 <shachaf> Well. A Finnish citizen.
19:40:06 <mroman_> now I really have to learn finnish
19:40:17 <shachaf> I've only been there for two weeks. I don't speak Finnish or anything.
19:40:19 <fizzie> I think "arguably Finnish" would be a good term.
19:40:29 <mroman_> shachaf: oh. then you don't count
19:40:31 <shachaf> You can tease me by learning before I do.
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19:40:36 <mroman_> hm
19:40:49 <mroman_> that'd be on the plus side of my imaginary pro/con list
19:41:05 <shachaf> fizzie: Enko ole suomalainen? :-(
19:41:08 <shachaf> (Can you say that?)
19:41:08 <fizzie> There are some Swedes here too.
19:41:14 <nortti> shachaf: *Enkö
19:41:21 <shachaf> What? Why is it kö?
19:41:47 <nortti> it defaults to front vowels, I think
19:42:06 <nortti> olsner is the only one here I know is a swede
19:42:10 <shachaf> Really?
19:42:15 <oerjan> shachaf doesn't know vowel harmony?
19:42:15 <shachaf> That's terrible.
19:42:21 <mroman_> so finnish is quite the dominant language here indeed
19:42:32 <shachaf> oerjan: What's ö harmonizing with, exactly?
19:42:44 <oerjan> olsner, FireFly and Vorpal at least
19:42:49 <oerjan> shachaf: the e
19:43:07 <nortti> oerjan: i and e are neutral in regards to vowel harmony
19:43:08 <shachaf> I can't tell whether you're making fun of me or I don't know something.
19:43:18 <fizzie> They're not entirely neutral, they just don't control the word.
19:43:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: not making fun
19:43:37 <fizzie> "In the initial syllable: -- a neutral vowel acts like a front vowel, but does not control the frontness or backness of the word: if there are back vowels in non-initial syllables, the word acts like it began with back vowels, even if they come from derivational endings --"
19:43:59 <fizzie> In "en", there are no back vowels in non-initial syllables (or non-initial syllables at all), so it counts as front.
19:44:17 <nortti> oh, okay
19:44:46 <mroman_> hm. swedish
19:45:22 <shachaf> mroman_: puhun heprea hth
19:45:22 <nortti> talar du svenska?
19:46:07 <nortti> shachaf: I think you mean "hepreaa". "heprea" is the nominative, "hepreaa" the partitive
19:46:27 <shachaf> Oh.
19:46:35 <mroman_> well...
19:46:41 <shachaf> Right.
19:46:47 <mroman_> Swedish could work.
19:46:49 <shachaf> I got mixed up by the -a
19:46:58 <mroman_> That is if Vorpal, olsner or somebody can convince me to learn it
19:47:28 <fizzie> `? finnish
19:47:29 <HackEgo> Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
19:47:36 <mroman_> `? swedish
19:47:37 <HackEgo> swedish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:48:50 <mroman_> Kålle är nöjd med Ada.
19:49:03 <mroman_> well Ada is a nice language...
19:49:13 <mroman_> so I can understand that Kalle is pleased about Ada
19:49:21 <mroman_> `? Ada
19:49:22 <HackEgo> Ada? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:49:24 <mroman_> what
19:50:02 <Taneb> Hahaha!
19:50:03 <oerjan> `learn Swedish is the language of fine cuisine.
19:50:04 <HackEgo> I knew that.
19:50:07 <Taneb> Now I have a desk AND donuts
19:50:27 <fizzie> Taneb: Don't eat the desk by accident, that would be TRAGIC.
19:50:48 <oerjan> it's ok the desk is probably topologically different
19:50:56 <oerjan> beware of the coffee cup, though
19:51:02 <Taneb> fizzie, yeah, my desk is quite different topologically
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19:51:16 <shachaf> are you sure
19:51:17 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't drink coffee! I think I'm safe
19:51:31 <shachaf> what is the fundamental group of your desk
19:51:47 <mroman_> His desk is a non-commuting monoid
19:51:53 <shachaf> imo finnish vowels should be more like hebrew vowels
19:52:00 <shachaf> hebrew vowels: the simplest?
19:52:08 <fizzie> My work desk is probably more or less equivalent to a donut, there's a hole for cables to go through.
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19:52:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i think standard arabic is simpler?
19:52:26 <oerjan> a, i, u
19:52:43 <oerjan> short and long
19:52:45 <oerjan> iirc
19:53:20 <shachaf> hebrew has a e i o u, short only
19:53:27 <oerjan> hm tricky
19:54:18 <oerjan> there may be some language that has only short a i u?
19:54:28 <shachaf> in the .il pronunciation anyway
19:54:33 <mroman_> you should learn swiss german
19:54:35 <mroman_> it's fun
19:57:57 <oerjan> "Nearly all languages have at least three phonemic vowels, usually /i/, /a/, /u/ as in Classical Arabic and Inuktitut (or /ɐ/, /ɪ/, /ʊ/ as in Quechua), though Adyghe and many Sepik languages have a vertical vowel system of /ɨ/, /ə/, /a/"
19:59:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: see also http://wals.info/chapter/2
20:03:02 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:03:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GeorgeEpicGen * New user account
20:05:16 <FreeFull> The problem in Hebrew is that there is a significant amount of text which only has the consonants
20:09:36 <zzo38> I have idea, can we make Pokemon Card retropuzzle?
20:11:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's "retropuzzle" mean?
20:12:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: Like chess retropuzzle, which is involving figuring out previous moves.
20:12:29 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
20:12:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: retrograde analysis puzzle
20:12:45 <zzo38> Yes.
20:13:03 <b_jonas> I don't know if that's possible (as in practical) for Pokemon Card
20:13:39 <zzo38> You should list the possible cards, of course.
20:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40578&oldid=40565 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+13) /* A */
20:18:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, barring un-cards like Chaos Confetti, cards can't just disappear, so they're always somewhere in the game state
20:18:51 <b_jonas> present in some zone or something
20:19:30 <zzo38> Yes, but I mean all cards that might be present in the game are listed in one section, including cards that you cannot see where they are.
20:19:39 <b_jonas> ok
20:20:03 <b_jonas> I don't really know Pokémon Card, so when you say this, I'm trying to mentally substitute M:tG of course
20:20:16 <b_jonas> but I still have no idea how such a puzzle would look like, and how possible it is
20:20:38 <zzo38> It could be done with M:tG too, I suppose.
20:21:08 <b_jonas> besides, there's only like twelve thousand different M:tG cards or so
20:21:35 <zzo38> Still, only the cards mentioned in the puzzle (plus basic energy/basic lands) are allowed.
20:22:02 <b_jonas> sure
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20:23:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: so how would such a puzzle work?
20:24:32 <zzo38> Do you know the chess puzzle that shows you position of all pieces on the board (but doesn't tell you whose turn it is), and then asks you, on which squares did captures occur?
20:24:41 <b_jonas> yeah
20:24:52 <b_jonas> or at least very similar ones
20:25:04 <b_jonas> I don't like solving those kinds of puzzles
20:25:13 <b_jonas> they don't really resonate with me
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20:25:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GeorgeEpicGen]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40579 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+274) Created page with "'''Oh hai!''' I'm George, this is my little page that I will probably spend 10 minutes on and then never come back to. ==My Languages== Below is a list of all of my language..."
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20:27:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40580 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+450) Created page with "ArrayZ is a BrainFu*k-derived esoteric programming language created by [[esolangs.org/wiki/User:GeorgeEpicGen|User:GeorgeEpicGen]] in 2014. It was created over the course of t..."
20:30:43 <AndoDaan_> "Below is a list of all of my languages. I was 15 when I made these"
20:30:51 <AndoDaan_> "ArrayZ is a BrainFu*k-derived esoteric programming language created by User:GeorgeEpicGen in 2014."
20:31:43 <AndoDaan_> now that's a puzzle i can solve.
20:32:32 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan.
20:37:33 <elliott_> weird to think we could easily have languages from people born in the 2000s on the wiki
20:40:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40581&oldid=40580 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+1147)
20:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40582&oldid=40581 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+24)
20:42:30 <Taneb> elliott_, I was born in the 2010w
20:42:43 <elliott_> me too
20:42:46 <elliott_> (what)
20:43:33 <Taneb> (what what)
20:43:39 <Taneb> (I'm 2)
20:45:38 <Taneb> (despite the fact that I first appeared here in I think 2011)
20:45:43 <fizzie> There's a broken user-page link in the ArrayZ page.
20:46:35 <fizzie> Taneb: 2010-09-06 <Taneb> Hello! <Taneb> I'm kinda new to this
20:46:58 <Taneb> fizzie, that logs scares me a bit
20:47:08 <Taneb> Because I'm not in the logs again for a while after that
20:48:02 <shachaf> oh no i found a wikipedia error
20:48:57 <shachaf> hm
20:52:57 * oerjan gently polishes his swatter
20:55:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40583&oldid=40582 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+1064)
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21:01:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArrayZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40584&oldid=40583 * GeorgeEpicGen * (+943) /* Hello, world! */
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21:27:19 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> The hackage-story with "corrupt acid-state logs" made me really sceptical of using acid-state in future projects <-- afaiu it wasn't _really_ corrupted, the recovery just didn't know how to ignore the junk at the end of the log from the aborted transaction
21:27:20 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:30:06 <elliott_> huh, doesn't it write atomically?
21:30:25 <oerjan> it does, but the disk ran out of room
21:30:43 <oerjan> well
21:30:46 <elliott_> heh
21:32:46 <oerjan> i assume they've fixed that in one way or the other
21:42:10 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/ௌ
21:42:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ௌ: No such file or directory
21:42:38 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/௵
21:42:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/௵: No such file or directory
21:43:31 <oerjan> it seems like my reverts were successful, i guess boily just didn't notice
21:44:37 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db. <-- to clarify, i already had nucleareverted
21:44:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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21:57:36 <Sgeo> I got a personalized email from a recruiter, but they probably know my online name so a bit worried about talking about it here
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22:48:02 <boily> @massages-loud
22:48:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 10m 43s ago: are you referring to anything other than what i reverted because it was meaningless junk submitted outside the channel?
22:48:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 3m 25s ago: <boily> I always could include these, apply a nuclearevert, then wait for people to further mangle the poor db. <-- to clarify, i already had nucleareverted
22:48:37 <boily> @tell oerjan thanks for the irradiation!
22:48:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:56:22 <LordCreepity> `ls
22:56:23 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ binpipes \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ crunchfuck \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ gcccomp \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
22:56:34 <LordCreepity> `cat :-(
22:56:35 <HackEgo> ​☹
22:56:41 <LordCreepity> lol
22:56:46 <AndoDaan> `dog
22:56:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
22:56:51 <LordCreepity> `./a.out
22:56:51 <HackEgo> hm
22:57:03 <AndoDaan> `dog :-)
22:57:04 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
22:57:09 <LordCreepity> `cat test.c
22:57:09 <AndoDaan> aww
22:57:09 <HackEgo> int main () { printf("hm"); }
22:57:21 <LordCreepity> `cat hello.c
22:57:22 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
22:57:28 <LordCreepity> wat
22:57:34 <LordCreepity> that ain't c
22:57:47 <LordCreepity> is is?
22:57:53 <shachaf> `gcc -o /tmp/hello hello.c && /tmp/hello
22:57:53 <LordCreepity> `./hello
22:57:53 <HackEgo> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
22:57:54 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
22:58:00 <shachaf> `` gcc -o /tmp/hello hello.c && /tmp/hello
22:58:00 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
22:58:14 <shachaf> lgtm
22:58:20 <LordCreepity> wow
22:58:37 <LordCreepity> is that like the raw char data for it or something?
22:59:08 <shachaf> The character sheet, as it were.
23:00:07 <LordCreepity> cool
23:00:24 <LordCreepity> `cat gcccomp
23:00:24 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {\nint main(void) { printf("Calling main from itself not supported.\n"); exit(1); }\n' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \
23:00:32 <shachaf> That program is also way too long. What is it doing?
23:00:38 <LordCreepity> `./gcccomp
23:00:38 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/gcccomp: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/gcccomp: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:00:59 <shachaf> LordCreepity: Better to explore with /msg HackEgo once you go past a few lines (unless you're showing something in the channel).
23:01:19 <LordCreepity> kk
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23:07:06 <shachaf> `help
23:07:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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