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01:10:28 <boily> musl? is that like asl, but with more mu?
01:14:42 <elliott_> can you hex-edit patch an ISO, or does it have too much checksumming?
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01:31:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: musl is an alternative libc for Linux.
01:31:36 <pikhq> Its goal is to be a suitable replacement for glibc and uclibc.
01:31:47 <pikhq> And be reasonable and simple.
01:33:07 <pikhq> It's definitely the best libc.
01:46:18 <elliott_> does musl work well with C++ yet?
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05:54:21 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I wanted something that someone could potentially run as-is in their own system, and `cc is not that.
06:02:11 <Sgeo> Objective-C uses... C style varargs. Almost forgot about those
06:06:50 <Sgeo> Is there a ... deep reason C does varargs the way it does?
06:09:23 <fizzie> Many quirks of <stdarg.h> are probably explained by a desire to make it easy to retrofit to an existing implementation, at least.
06:10:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: because it was easy to implement back on very small machines, before function prototypes in C even existed
06:11:22 <Bike> it's kind of funny how instead of apply you have a bunch of functions that are like some other function except they take a va_list
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06:12:01 <fizzie> <stdarg.h> does derive from the older (not-standard-C) <varargs.h>, which was slightly different, and designed for old-style function declarations.
06:13:47 <Sgeo> Is it possible to mak a va_list in any way other than calling a function once with every argument at the same time?
06:15:27 <mroman_> @tell oerjan You're wrong. That's the way you golf on sites like codegolf.stackexchange.com but not on anagol
06:16:32 <mroman_> @tell oerjan It's part of the solution to find untested cases so that you maybe can get an even shorter program
06:17:09 <fizzie> va_copy is arguably a way to make a va_list, but that's not what you meant.
06:17:21 <mroman_> @tell oerjan anagol is about writing the shortest program that passes the testcases. That's it. Nobody is asking you to write a program that does more than that ;)
06:17:28 <Sgeo> In Idris, would you also need at least one argument in order for a variadic function to be useful? In that, the function that determines the type that the function returns needs to be given something
06:17:57 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdarg.h> \n #define S(x) S_(x) \n #define S_(x) #x \n int main(void) { puts(S(va_arg(ap, sometype))); }
06:17:58 <HackEgo> __builtin_va_arg(ap,sometype)
06:18:08 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a tricky macro. :/
06:18:26 <Bike> yeah, i was disappointed when i looked that up.
06:19:28 <Sgeo> http://c-faq.com/varargs/funcptr.html
06:19:34 <mroman_> @tell oerjan Some solutions for some anagol challenges even use random() (i.e. rand(2) for challenges where you have to answer with yes/no). Other submissions (e.g. python) make use a hash function and then you just brute-force some crazy magic-formula that gives you the answer based on the hash of the input.
06:19:35 <Sgeo> Not even going to try to understand
06:19:52 <Bike> `run echo '#include <stdarg.h>\nva_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:19:53 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:20: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive [enabled by default] \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linu
06:20:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python hash('abc')'
06:20:05 <Bike> `run echo '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:20:06 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:21: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive [enabled by default] \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linu
06:20:09 <mroman_> `run python -c "hash('abc')"
06:20:14 <mroman_> `run python -c "print hash('abc')"
06:20:16 <Bike> i don't get you, string interpolation
06:20:37 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c -
06:20:38 <HackEgo> # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 1 3 4 \ # 40 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __builtin_va_list __gnuc_va_list; \ # 102 "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/include/stdarg.h" 3 4 \ typedef __gnuc_va_list va_list; \ # 2 "<stdin>" 2 \ _
06:20:50 <fizzie> Though it'll still have lots of cruft; maybe a tail -n 1 too.
06:21:03 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | tail -n 1 | gcc -E -x c -
06:21:04 <HackEgo> # 1 "<stdin>" \ # 1 "<command-line>" \ # 1 "<stdin>" \ va_arg(ap, sometype)
06:21:10 <fizzie> I mean, for the results.
06:21:13 <Bike> oh, right, that's... yeah.
06:21:30 <Bike> `run echo -e '#include <stdarg.h> \n va_arg(ap, sometype)' | gcc -E -x c - | tail -n 1
06:21:30 <HackEgo> __builtin_va_arg(ap,sometype)
06:22:13 <Bike> anyway, what's the S macro for in ur code, exactly
06:22:24 <mroman_> i.e. for abc def ghc jkl to 1 0 1 0 you can just use hash(x)%2 in python
06:22:35 <fizzie> Stringizing. And it needs the two macro layers not to stringize the argument literally.
06:23:09 <fizzie> It goes approximately S(va_arg(ap, sometype)) -> _S([whatever va_arg expands to]) -> "[whatever va_arg expands to]".
06:23:26 <fizzie> While without S_ it would go S(va_arg(ap, sometype)) -> "va_arg(ap, sometype)".
06:23:27 <Bike> Sgeo: just seems like a combo of C funcptr syntax being insane and the macroexpander running before parsing.
06:24:56 <fizzie> (*(sometype *)__builtin_va_arg((ap), (sometype *)0)) is what happens on the PGI C compiler.
06:25:17 <fizzie> Still no actual pointer arithmetic, but at least it's *something*.
06:27:02 <fizzie> Both ICC and "PathScale EKOPath(tm)" were the same level of boring as GCC.
06:28:01 <Bike> wait, does gcc come with boehm
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06:32:15 <Bike> oh, for the objc runtime.
06:32:55 <mroman_> !bfjoust snail (>(-)*12>(+)*9)*5[>[(-)*8[+].]+](<)*9([(+)*9[-]]+>)*-1
06:32:56 <zemhill> mroman_.snail: points 1.67, score 22.37, rank 16/47 (+21)
06:33:43 <mroman_> submitting this caused my other bot rushit to climb +30!
06:35:58 <fizzie> Maybe the bot's gotten confused.
06:37:14 <fizzie> I'll restart it to make sure the interpreter has exactly those programs that are stored in the files.
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06:37:55 <fizzie> Okay, now it does not start up, thanks to crashing in the matrix library. I *really* should take care of that at some point, but don't again have time now.
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06:38:35 <fizzie> !bfjoust refresh_reports <
06:38:36 <zemhill> fizzie.refresh_reports: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
06:38:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust search_and_destroy (>(+)*11>(-)*13)*3(>[>>>>([(+)*7[-]]+>)*-1]-)*-1
06:38:52 <zemhill> mroman_.search_and_destroy: points 5.67, score 26.39, rank 10/47 (+12)
06:39:23 <fizzie> That made refresh_reports go up +33.
06:39:46 <fizzie> !bfjoust refresh_reports .<
06:39:46 <zemhill> fizzie.refresh_reports: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-33)
06:39:55 <mroman_> Then there's something terribly broken :D
06:40:16 <fizzie> I have no idea what, though. It's not as if it's a very complicated piece of software.
06:40:16 <mroman_> I wonder if one can abuse this to get to #1
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06:40:30 <mroman_> It would be cool to have <. on the major programs list :P
06:41:06 <AndoDaan> Writing an interpreter in burlesque is not as easy as i thought.
06:41:24 <mroman_> AndoDaan: mainly because blsq has no print
06:41:25 <AndoDaan> not that i thought it would be easy with my current level of skill.
06:41:41 <mroman_> otherwise the best way to write interpreters is to convert stuff into burlesque and then call e!
06:41:46 <AndoDaan> i just put output into the state stack.
06:42:13 <mroman_> how long is your deadfish now?
06:42:39 <AndoDaan> but the one i'm writing is for the ///
06:43:03 <Sgeo> "Objective-C's memory management system is called reference counting. All you have to do is keep track of your references, and the runtime does the actual freeing of memory. "
06:45:30 <mroman_> h isn't a deadfish instruction?
06:45:46 <AndoDaan> yeah, he uses it to terminate the program
06:46:09 <AndoDaan> kinda silly cuz it's always the last instrucction.
06:46:48 <AndoDaan> (how did teebee write a 6B blsq solution to what have i got in my pocket??)
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06:57:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: I think for any ascii letter there's at least one programming language that's claimed that name.
06:58:33 <b_jonas> the space of short extensions is bad too. there's at least two conflicting uses for .pl .m .obj extensions.
07:00:47 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
07:05:29 <b_jonas> and 2 byte long gs2 implementation? that sounds crazy
07:07:02 <AndoDaan> I don't know how it's possible.
07:07:28 <b_jonas> the first char is probably O so let's brute force the second char
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08:05:00 <Sgeo> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Asksql
08:05:16 <Sgeo> Does this actually count as vulnerable to SQL injection attacks?
08:15:37 <int-e> Hehe. It's an SQL injection plugin for sufficiently privileged users.
08:17:05 <int-e> I find the warning appropriate, people really should not use this plugin unless they understand what they're doing. Which includes everybody to whom "SQL injection" is just a scary buzzword.
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08:56:25 <fizzie> "You are advised against using it until this security issue is resolved." Makes one wonder how they're going to "resolve" it, given the whole concept.
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10:19:00 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4h 24m 38s ago: I wanted something that someone could potentially run as-is in their own system, and `cc is not that.
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 3m 32s ago: You're wrong. That's the way you golf on sites like codegolf.stackexchange.com but not on anagol
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 2m 27s ago: It's part of the solution to find untested cases so that you maybe can get an even shorter program
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 4h 1m 38s ago: anagol is about writing the shortest program that passes the testcases. That's it. Nobody is asking you to write a program that does more than that ;)
10:19:00 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 3h 59m 24s ago: Some solutions for some anagol challenges even use random() (i.e. rand(2) for challenges where you have to answer with yes/no). Other submissions (e.g. python) make use a hash function and then you just brute-force some crazy magic-formula that gives you the answer based on the hash of the input.
10:19:21 <fizzie> That was very confrontational.
10:19:49 <fizzie> Also I was under the impression that you were supposed to add a "(luck)" suffix or something if you wrote something that works every N'th time.
10:19:56 <oerjan> fizzie: just another brick in the wall
10:20:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that was my impression too. so why doesn't mroman_ know about it.
10:21:30 <oerjan> and i've seen at least one person mark their submission with (cheat)
10:22:26 <fizzie> I've seen that too, but maybe it's not such a strong custom, at least unless it's really blatant? Clearly there should be a set of rules and an EULA you need to click through about this.
10:22:29 <oerjan> of course the fact that the site itself doesn't _mention_ that stuff leads to it easily being forgotten.
10:23:54 <oerjan> #anagol seems not to have any publically /list-able info
10:24:25 <fizzie> I've been thinking about joining, but I don't really play golf.
10:24:50 <fizzie> Do you happen to know if they have some automated IRC-feedbackery about things happening on the site?
10:26:25 <oerjan> i'm not on the channel
10:31:05 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ [citation needed]
10:32:25 <oerjan> i suppose the name "anarchy" does tend to support it, sort of.
10:33:41 <oerjan> codegolf.com is not loading, i wanted to see if they have such a custom so maybe people are confusing anagol with it
10:37:04 <fizzie> "The Sun's surface is relatively cool. It's hotter than, like, Phoenix,[citation needed] --" (recent what-if)
10:41:56 <oerjan> a burning phoenix is pretty hot, i assume
10:46:43 <boily> probably some carbon-based flame temperature like, around a 1000 °C. so pretty hot, but not quite hot.
10:47:43 <boily> (if it's a fatty phœnix, then 800 or 900 degrees only.)
10:47:59 <myname> lol @ random brute force golfing
10:49:01 <oerjan> myname: did you hear about anagol's pid setting form
10:49:33 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/setpid.html
10:49:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, you mean you golf a large number to $$ in perl?
10:50:28 <oerjan> basically some golfers, especially in perl, made programs that depended on the pid being exactly right. which caused a strain on servers so they simply let people set the desired pid explicitly
10:51:01 <b_jonas> do people also wait a decade to submit a program when the time() is just right?
10:51:19 <fizzie> Ruby's got a similar $$ too, I think.
10:51:23 <oerjan> well most problems have expiry dates
10:51:31 <b_jonas> ok, but in the post-mortem
10:51:37 <oerjan> fizzie: well yeah the form page mentions ruby
11:08:59 <b_jonas> why doesn't the anagolf site have metapost or metafont as a language?
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11:20:48 <Taneb> I feel like entering IOCCC
11:23:54 <b_jonas> how tolerant is anagolf to whitespace differences in output?
11:25:43 <b_jonas> tolerant apparently, to some differences at least
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11:27:45 <fizziew> I was just about to type an answer when my home interwebs broke.
11:28:02 <fizziew> Perhaps another power outage, like yesterday.
11:28:32 <fizziew> In case nobody replied, it's not terribly tolerant: a trailing newline at the end of the output seems fine, but e.g. extra newlines at the ends of lines are not.
11:28:43 <fizziew> Which is annoying from a Forth perspective, because '.' adds a space.
11:31:01 <b_jonas> it accepted a trailing space at the end for me
11:31:11 <b_jonas> at the very end of the output, that is
11:32:55 <mroman_> I think whitespaces at the end of lines will be truncated
11:33:04 <mroman_> and I think it doesn't matter if stdout ends with \n or not
11:33:30 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 2m 24s ago: [citation needed]
11:34:48 <oerjan> mroman_: no, for the fact this actually _is_ the anagolf culture
11:35:07 <oerjan> since i've heard before that adding (cheat) to your username is custom
11:35:21 <mroman_> You only append () when you base your answer on somebody else's.
11:35:27 <mroman_> like for post-mortem stuff
11:35:49 <oerjan> mroman_: also why is none of this written up on the website i say your citation is not reliable hth
11:36:01 <oerjan> (not on the hint website either)
11:37:02 <mroman_> at least for certain tricks like
11:37:08 <mroman_> don't worry if it crashes with garbage to stderr
11:37:17 <mroman_> https://sites.google.com/site/codegolfingtips/python
11:37:27 <oerjan> well sure. you had that in the haskell tips.
11:37:32 <mroman_> "cheating" would only by stuff like finding some way to create state on the server
11:37:46 <mroman_> but anagol is specifically about passing the testcases
11:38:05 <oerjan> but it DOESN'T SAY SO ANYWHERE
11:38:07 <mroman_> oerjan: there are also "embed" solutions
11:38:14 <mroman_> like... if the testcase output is too short
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11:38:23 <mroman_> people don't bother solving the actual problem but rather on compressing the output
11:38:43 <mroman_> (It's generally considered bad to provide too short testcases)
11:39:04 <mroman_> oerjan: I can't give you citations
11:39:18 <mroman_> I can only say that I've been golfing for years on anagol and I'm 24/7 in #anagol
11:39:19 <oerjan> mroman_: ok at this point i'm no longer doubting this is the case but i'm feeling like going on a killing rampage until someone actually puts it very clearly and explicitly on the frontpage.
11:39:38 <oerjan> (i'm not having a good day, see)
11:40:19 <mroman_> oerjan: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Equations/tails_1308465224&pl
11:40:21 <oerjan> (neighbor's dog again)
11:40:53 <mroman_> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Equations/leonid_1308457504&rb
11:40:59 <mroman_> these solutions just select random lines of the input
11:41:01 <oerjan> that's not a clear and explicit explanation and it's hidden in a problem please report for termination hth
11:41:22 <fizziew> mroman_: It's definitely not true about trailin whitespace at the ends of lines (other than the last).
11:41:36 <oerjan> also stop linking irrelevant things i might snap and ban you hth
11:41:48 <mroman_> oerjan: Did I offend you in some way?
11:42:10 <oerjan> i said i'm having a bad day. sorry.
11:42:34 <oerjan> once i start feeling this annoyed, everything else annoys me too.
11:43:30 <oerjan> i've complained to the neighbors several times and each time it gets better for a few days then slowly starts getting worse again.
11:44:47 <mroman_> Does it bark loudly at night?
11:44:58 <oerjan> no, it is never barking when they're home.
11:46:09 <oerjan> but i also have a completely broken sleeping schedule, which i don't see anything good coming from mentioning to them, so frequently i _am_ trying to sleep when it's barking.
11:46:58 <oerjan> but i'm not sure whether it grates on me more when i'm trying to sleep (i think i can sleep through at least _some_ of it) or when i am awake and trying to use the pc
11:47:38 <oerjan> i don't have a 24 hour schedule, it keeps rotating
11:49:20 <mroman_> damn gs2 is annoying me as well :)
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11:52:26 <fizziew> Oh, this time it came up on its own.
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11:54:25 <mroman_> for the purpose AndoDaan used it
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11:56:29 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
11:56:36 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
11:56:44 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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11:57:05 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
12:02:36 <mroman_> Well It would take forever to complete
12:03:23 <mroman_> !blsq "Hi ~ there ~ you ~"{1 "Hans" {0 0}}f~
12:03:23 <blsqbot> "Hi 1 there Hans you [0, 0]"
12:06:24 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (\[) Invalid arguments!
12:08:51 <mroman_> oerjan: I btw. like that at anagol compared to stackexchange
12:09:12 <mroman_> codegolf.stackexchange has these weird prosa description of problems everybody interprets a little bit differently
12:09:30 <mroman_> they don't supply testcases (sometimes they do)
12:09:46 <mroman_> and there's no automated verification that your program does what you claim it to do
12:09:56 <mroman_> there's no real scoring mechanism
12:10:17 <oerjan> right, you'd want a test _program_ at least.
12:10:34 <oerjan> if you were to do more strictly than anagolf.
12:10:34 <mroman_> I'm honestly not a huge fan of the $$ thingy
12:10:43 <b_jonas> they should give testcases
12:10:43 <mroman_> also setpid only works for the next submission I think
12:10:56 <mroman_> so if somebody else submits between setpid and your submission you have to do it again
12:11:05 <mroman_> (I think, I don't know for sure)
12:11:21 <oerjan> what they could have done to stop much random cheating is to rerun successful tests a few times
12:11:37 <b_jonas> mroman_: of course. it basically just tries to fork so much the pid becomes the one you want, because pids are only 15 bit long this isn't hard
12:12:29 <oerjan> well ulimit can prevent that
12:12:51 <oerjan> it would be easy to make randomness abuse much harder
12:13:25 <mroman_> yeah. rerunning would counter that to some degree
12:13:45 <mroman_> run it again -> capture stdout
12:13:52 <mroman_> if stdout isn't the same again -> reject
12:14:09 <mroman_> oerjan: just make two runs of a submission
12:14:14 <mroman_> calc the hash of stdout and compare between runs
12:14:24 <mroman_> if hash isn't equal then the solution doesn't always produce the same output
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12:14:35 <b_jonas> mroman_: sure, that could be fine (just probably ignore the whitespaces at the end)
12:14:38 <oerjan> mroman_: well that's equivalent to running the test twice, since intended stdout is fixed anyways
12:15:02 <mroman_> but shinh won't do that ;)
12:15:19 <mroman_> because there are already solutions on anagol doing random stuff
12:15:30 <mroman_> if he were to disallow random now
12:15:41 <mroman_> there will be random solutions you can't beat :)
12:17:53 <oerjan> you could make it an option for new problems, and even default it to true.
12:17:57 <mroman_> Burlesque has no random :D :P
12:18:19 <oerjan> it doesn't? i thought i saw you use random a while ago...
12:20:15 <mroman_> (i.e. you need to provide a hardcoded seed)
12:20:26 <mroman_> at least it's reproducable this way
12:20:45 <mroman_> i.e. resubmitting the same program won't change it's output
12:21:02 <oerjan> they should use ais532's web o'flies to run the programs in a completely predictable environment >:)
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12:22:53 <oerjan> darn i was hoping the dog had finished for the day
12:25:10 <oerjan> grmbl there's no way to add code statistics after the fact if you forget to check the button
12:26:24 <int-e> oerjan: right, you either need to find a better solution or submit under another name.
12:26:39 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?print+numbers+reversed i am wondering if everyone has the exact same solution or if int-e really has found a faster one
12:26:53 <oerjan> (my statistics are identical)
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12:27:24 <oerjan> int-e: do you also use a function starting with a that is only needed for defaulting to work right?
12:27:42 <mroman_> I kinda whish you could replace solutions if they are the same length
12:27:55 <oerjan> mroman_: yeah i tried but it didn't work
12:28:25 <int-e> oerjan: the measurements are flaky. time: 0.011596sec is what I got now
12:28:56 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I do, and it took me a while to find it.
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12:33:10 <oerjan> also what in the world is that Asteriks and Obeliks thing actually _doing_
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12:34:27 <oerjan> i look at the first I/O example and think "oh simple", then i look at the second and think "wait what", then the third and think "wtf"
12:37:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably you just have to hard-code the three outputs
12:37:18 <int-e> oerjan: figuring that out is half of the fun
12:37:39 <mroman_> b_jonas: Nope. There's an algorithm behind it
12:37:49 <mroman_> the numbers mean how many * are in a column.
12:38:04 <int-e> oerjan: and it's probably worthwhile, since I do not believe that my solution is optimal
12:38:22 <mroman_> but the output of those column is scewed
12:40:12 <int-e> also that problem would be more enjoyable if the server tolerated trailing spaces
12:40:56 <mroman_> oerjan: To be fair that's kinda an "insider" challenge on #anagol
12:43:30 <mroman_> From time to time it's fun when you even have to first figure out what the hell you're supposed to do
12:44:03 <b_jonas> oh argh, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Twelve+Days+of+Christmas uses more newlines in the output text than what I output in my old perl script
12:45:57 <b_jonas> this has "true love sent to me", the one I use says "true love gave to me"
12:50:31 <fizzie> Pretty much every problem would be more tolerable with trailing spaces when writing in Forth.
12:50:54 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's an exaggeration. But any "sequence of numbers on separate lines" ones.
12:51:33 <fizzie> (That's funny: everything else here at home automatically boots up after a power outage, except for the completely non-managed "dumb" Ethernet switch, which requires a unplug-replug cycle.)
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13:02:44 <b_jonas> and I've created that old compressed obfu partly by hand and partly by a somewhat obfuscated ruby script that I totally don't understand now
13:02:53 <b_jonas> I'll probably have to write a completely new compressor
13:03:22 <b_jonas> mind you, its comression method sucks for this anyway
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13:05:52 <fizzie> I wonder if there is (or anyone's thought of adding) an "only allow packages with names like this from this repository" option to apt source configuration. I have things like emdebian in my sources.list.d for some cross-compilers, but I'm not terribly comfortable if that means they can replace any package I have with something malicious by publishing a "new version" of it. (I guess OTOH they could just put whatever they want in each of their legit package
13:24:42 <Jafet> If you're worried about actual malice (and not just indistinguishably similar incompetence) packages can already run arbitrary install scripts
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13:28:42 <elliott_> "As of July 2014, updates to the Emdebian distributions ceased. There will be no further updates and no further stable releases." are they even still updating the toolchains?
13:29:38 <mroman_> the safety of servers with unattended-upgrades pretty much relies on the safety of the repository
13:30:12 <mroman_> if somebody can inject something malicious into the official security repos you're pretty much screwed
13:30:32 <mroman_> but I guess that's no different from windows, mac
13:30:43 <quintopia> mroman_: what's your height and mass (in planck units please)
13:31:03 <fizzie> elliott_: I don't know, I haven't used any of that stuff in a while.
13:32:29 <mroman_> .oO (what the hell is a planck unit)
13:33:07 <S1> the minimal measurable distance
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13:41:08 <Jafet> Knuth suggests, in 4.5.1 ex. 15, sabotaging your institution's compiler to replace all floating point operations by floating rational operations. But does any microprocessor have a gcd instruction?
13:45:34 <paul2520> Jafet: what Knuth work is this?
13:45:59 <b_jonas> paul2520: The Art of Computer Programming (duh)
13:46:22 <Jafet> That's from the second book, Seminumerical Algorithms.
13:48:48 <b_jonas> that's the one we call just "Knuth", on account it is the one whose Knuth checks contain only the chapter, not an abbreviation for the name of the book
13:49:08 <paul2520> b_jonas: okay, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
13:49:29 <b_jonas> well, the checks aren't the real reason
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13:54:47 <paul2520> Jafet: I'm not sure if this is the official version, but it shows that problem as ex 14. http://bit.ly/1qp0edF
13:56:06 <mroman_> quintopia: Why do you ask btw?
13:57:41 <Sgeo> There's a pancake-making machine. I used it, ate, but then kind of licked my fingers slightly. I used the pancake machine again, what if someone gets sick because of me :(
13:58:06 <AndoDaan> and you just confessed online.
13:58:40 <mroman_> the CDC will take care of that.
14:01:27 <Sgeo> Is it likely that this is a common occurance, and I should not worry about it too much?
14:02:13 <mroman_> Do you have a deadly disease that can be transmitted via spit?
14:02:17 <mroman_> If not... then it's no big deal
14:03:37 <Sgeo> I have been feeling sniffly. So it's possible I do have a disease. And it could be deadly to elderly persons or the immunocompromised or young children
14:05:10 <mroman_> are you an overly-hygenic person?
14:08:25 <Sgeo> Not when it comes to me personally. But in terms of trying to avoid utensils I'm not about to use, etc., possibly
14:09:51 <Sgeo> Was once at a restaurant with friends. There was a large pretzel. I wanted a piece, but was nervous about touching the parts of the pretzel I wasn't going to take for myself. Was told that that's insane.
14:13:13 <elliott_> the baseline hygiene level of the world would have to be vastly higher for your caution to help the immunocompromised in any way
14:15:36 <elliott_> ("the majority of people are vastly less concerned about such things and are, literally, everywhere" suffices to see this)
14:16:40 <Sgeo> Ok. Kind of sad though
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14:18:42 <elliott_> sure. having a weak immune system isn't great (but there are many not-great things about it beyond pancake machines)
14:19:43 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Is it likely that this is a common occurance, and I should not worry about it too much? <-- merely by my experience of using public toilets, i suggest that people who don't care about hygiene when no one is watching is _frighteningly_ common and might even be a major factor in humanity's inability to efficiently eradicate infectious disease hth
14:22:27 <b_jonas> I think it happens even when people are watching
14:22:36 <elliott_> thanks for the periodic reminder to never use public toilets :p
14:23:34 <b_jonas> for example, touching every bread and bun you're not going to buy seems to be a traditional part of Hungarian culture. that's how we love our bread.
14:25:13 <oerjan> elliott_: admittedly the places i frequent are not _usually_ that messy, but occasionally you see the results of someon not giving a fuck
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14:25:49 <elliott_> in case anyone is still at the edge of their seat, the "ssh install livecd run from ram loaded from the hard disk using syslinux/memdisk installed through the rescue system" plan works perfectly
14:25:58 <J_Arcane> I used to have a drinking buddy with AIDS. He did have to be careful about sharing drinks and so forth, but in general the biggest difficulty was that it meant he really couldn't go to the loo anywhere but home.
14:26:08 <J_Arcane> Certainly not in the horrowshow that passes for a bar toilet.
14:26:16 <b_jonas> elliott_: http://thedoghousediaries.com/3286
14:27:30 <elliott_> also the swap thing wasn't really necessary, I could have just partitioned beforehand and I had to regenerate the ISO after that anyway :/
14:28:07 <oerjan> yeah, bars. this gets at least an order of magnitude worse around overly drunk people, of course.
14:28:45 <elliott_> a good solution is to not go to bars
14:32:35 <Gregor> oerjan: "people who don't care about hygiene when no one is watching is _frighteningly_ common" // I have a slightly more positive view. In a public toilet, if there is a slight miscalculation, a small misaim, nobody is going to clean it up. Because the moment you think to do so, you then think "how many OTHER people peed on the rim here? Ew." In a private toilet, if I miss, I'm going to grab some toilet paper and clean it up.
14:33:06 <Gregor> Multiply one drop of missed urine by 100 patrons, and nasty.
14:35:02 <Gregor> It is the very revulsion to cleaning a mess that isn't our own that causes the mess that isn't our own.
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14:37:09 <elliott_> I hear there are people paid to clean up public messes
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14:48:16 <oerjan> hu@loo, the hungarian public toilet entertainment system
14:48:21 <mroman_> because of his decreased immune system?
14:48:41 <oerjan> sounds like a good bet
14:56:36 <elliott_> it does stand for "acquired immune deficiency syndrome" :)
15:00:28 <mroman_> He could have also refrained from using those toilets out of fear to infect others
15:00:49 <oerjan> but then he wouldn't be worried about whether they were dirty
15:01:04 <elliott_> HIV is transmitted by three main routes: sexual contact, exposure to infected body fluids or tissues, and from mother to child during pregnancy, delivery, or breastfeeding (known as vertical transmission).[2] There is no risk of acquiring HIV if exposed to feces, nasal secretions, saliva, sputum, sweat, tears, urine, or vomit unless these are contaminated with blood.[29]
15:01:15 <elliott_> maybe if he jerked off in them.
15:03:07 <Bike> or if he had ass cuts
15:03:49 <elliott_> http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/745000/745573_1307997462727_160.png?v=1307997467
15:04:36 <elliott_> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78104000/gif/_78104505_deletekey2.gif I love stock photos of delete keys being hit dramatically
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15:20:10 <J_Arcane> mroman_: Sanitation is very important when you are immunocompromised. The average bar isn't necessarily as nasty as you'd think, except for the bathroom, which is sometimes putting your life in your hands even if you don't have a completely fucked immune system.
15:21:55 <elliott_> what about pancake machines :p
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15:30:26 <J_Arcane> elliott_: Weirdly, I actually have heard some bad things about those ...
15:30:57 <J_Arcane> I can't remember what they are in any detail though, so I won't stick by them. ;)
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15:31:23 <elliott_> okay. don't worry, Sgeo. they know the pancakes aren't safe.
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15:34:12 <J_Arcane> I seem to recall there were some issues with the temperature at which the automated machines kept the batter.
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15:47:52 <diginet> why did Algol 60 have call by name?
15:50:11 <Bike> so knuth's ridiculous test would be properly ridiculous
15:55:45 <diginet> it just seems so bizarre, for an imperative language
15:56:37 <J_Arcane> Some 10 or 15 years back, I think, in the early 00's when I was still cooking for a living.
15:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, i thought even then there were effective treatments
15:58:10 <J_Arcane> He was on treatments I think, but even so you have to be careful with the more egregious environs.
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17:29:47 <zzo38> Yesterday I have heard some important insights about Christian trinity. His logic was imperfect and oversimplified, but this may be to make it easier for other people as well as to make it to be Christian. He mentioned that just as a man may be a husband, a son, and a father, so: [1] God created man in His own image/likeness. [2] Men have trinities. [3] Therefore, God is also trinity.
17:30:04 <zzo38> Of course there are things wrong with that. I can mention what I can see, at least, if you want.
17:31:18 <zzo38> For one thing, [1] is too vague, and also is irrelevant to the argument as I shall point out.
17:33:47 <zzo38> Also, [2] is too oversimplified. A man is not only a husband, sun, and father, but may also be an uncle, cousin, employer, employee, friend, etc. And then that only gets to some relations with other people; there are many more things! Just as any other lifeform, a man consists of a collection of cells, and just as any other matter, a man consists of a collection of atoms. Furthermore, other things also can be described as many different functions a
17:35:09 <elliott_> cut off at "different functions a"
17:35:17 <zzo38> Furthermore, other things also can be described as many different functions as different ways!
17:43:25 <zzo38> It doesn't conclude that, either.
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17:45:34 <J_Arcane> I have a whole passage introducing a novella I've been tinkering with on how [1] there is so often grossly misunderstood ...
17:46:06 <zzo38> J_Arcane: You do? I didn't know you had such a thing.
17:46:56 <J_Arcane> I haven't actually posted it yet; it's still an unfinished draft.
17:47:38 <J_Arcane> I've long held that that passage more likely refers to the creative impulse, something largely unique to people.
17:50:12 <zzo38> That is an interesting view.
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17:53:39 <quintopia> i've long held it's more likely the creation went in the other direction
17:53:46 <zzo38> What are your religious views anyways? (I am curious to know)
17:55:15 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, in a more literal sense, yes man created God in his own image, but I would also say that GOD extremely indirectly "created" everything else too. Just as the natural processes of evolution and other stuff can also create a man who can also create scientific theories to account for such thing.
17:55:25 <mroman_> diginet: because call by name is awesome
17:56:17 <zzo38> mroman_: I like real macros though
17:57:05 <quintopia> zzo38: it's not clear what you mean by "GOD" at this point though, and I'm sure, whatever it is, it doesn't add any explanatory power to our scientific theories
17:57:06 <zzo38> I think it is generally better than an implementation of a "call by name", though
17:57:17 <zzo38> quintopia: I agree with that completely.
17:58:15 <elliott_> god created man in his own image, and lo, /home/god/human.png was created
17:58:19 <zzo38> I never claimed it would add any power to scientific theories.
17:58:48 <zzo38> elliott_: O, you interpret it like that...
17:58:49 <quintopia> elliott_: can god please make an osx image that runs virtualized on my processor
18:00:07 <Sgeo> What's wrong with 10.9 for that use case?
18:01:43 <quintopia> well, the main problem is my AMD A8-5500 APU
18:01:52 <elliott_> running OS X virtualised is very underwhelming.
18:02:02 <elliott_> the graphics performance is awful (no acceleration whatsoever) and stuff barely works
18:02:36 <quintopia> Niresh supposedly runs on AMD, but the boot fails on virtualbox, and installation freezes on vmware, unless you unlock the osx vm stuff, in which case it just won't boot at all.
18:02:40 <zzo38> But what if you simply need to run it and it doesn't matter the speed?
18:03:07 <quintopia> all i want it for is to be able to build executables for an osx environment
18:03:13 <elliott_> maybe try http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~somlo/OSXKVM/
18:03:27 <J_Arcane> elliott_: heh. the book actually starts with a code snippet: (begin (define universe (void))) ;) It's sort of a "American Gods through the lens of programming" thing. No idea yet if it's going anywhere.
18:03:31 <elliott_> but I think it'll always be painful with AMD.
18:04:43 <elliott_> quintopia: honestly, it's probably going to be more than $599 of fuss, so I'd just get a mac mini. but it looks like you should be able to use clang to cross-compile for OS X, at least; https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross.
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18:05:58 <Sgeo> Does anyone buy Macs because they prefer Cocoa?
18:06:18 <elliott_> do people buy macs so they can program for macs? ...sure
18:06:51 <J_Arcane> Well, I have noticed that it seems like people who are really good at UI design all seem to wind up developing for Macs.
18:08:05 <Bicyclidine> maybe they get tired of thinking about xlib
18:08:33 <elliott_> the mac has a very long history/culture of UI design and HIG, yeah
18:09:05 <elliott_> I mean, that's basically what its success was built on: you could point at things instead of typing on a VT or whatever!
18:09:12 <J_Arcane> Like, I would kill for Boxer or OpenEmu on Windows. . .
18:09:28 <J_Arcane> And yeah, that and the number of graphics designers who're already using the platform.
18:09:38 <zzo38> elliott_: Well, and now you can even do both.
18:09:57 <elliott_> zzo38: sadly macs do not ship with physical VTs :(
18:10:00 <Sgeo> Boxer? OpenEmu?
18:10:10 <elliott_> but they totally should!! free vt100 with every purchase
18:10:27 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes, but I suppose if you have one you can use it, and if not you can still use a vt100 terminal emulator; it has a built-in terminal emulator which is mostly compatible these days.
18:10:44 <zzo38> (Not perfectly VT100 compatible, but good enough for nearly all uses today, at least.)
18:10:55 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Emu frontends, for DosBox and Multisystem, respectively.
18:11:00 <Bicyclidine> i'm honestly weirded out by the whiplash between "macs have good interfaces" and "BUT WHAT ABOUT VT"
18:11:39 <zzo38> Bycyclidine: Don't you think Amiga might have had a better interface? I haven't ever used Amiga, but from what I have read seems better than the original Macintosh computers
18:12:04 <J_Arcane> Boxer is a drag and drop frontend: Drag zip/folder of a DOS game onto icon, instantly creates shortcut, accurate conf, etc etc. And all years before GOG.com came along at that.
18:12:11 <zzo38> Amiga combined a GUI with a command-line interface as well as doing many other things, such as AREXX
18:12:30 <Bicyclidine> i think my only experience with mac gaming is marathon
18:12:49 <fizzie> That paper airplane Mac OS game was nice.
18:12:54 <zzo38> So if you don't have a VT100 you can emulate it.
18:13:01 <fizzie> And that one vector thing.
18:13:52 <elliott_> quintopia: oh, hey, on that kvm page it has 3.4. Boot OS X on QEMU without KVM hardware assistance
18:14:07 <elliott_> looks like it's impractical, but at least having an AMD shouldn't be an obstacle in theory then
18:15:31 <quintopia> elliott_: the only obstacle in theory then is doing it all in windows :P
18:15:45 <elliott_> or at least start by installing a linux vm
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18:17:40 <quintopia> elliott_: oh man. vms in vms. i think i'm just gonna give up instead.
18:18:02 <elliott_> the easiest thing is to find someone willing to lend you a mac :p
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18:22:10 <fizzie> mroman_: Given these recent topics, perhaps you should add that cumulative-sum builtin. I mean, even MATLAB's got one.
18:23:53 <fizzie> I mean, it'd be 40ro??#S (where ?? is a cumulative sum) and that's it, if it worked on blocks.
18:24:10 <fizzie> I've used magic(n) a couple of times.
18:24:42 <Bicyclidine> random posix weirdness question: is there any variable in make (probably GNU) that gives you the makefile's absolute path
18:35:47 <mroman_> fizzie: I'm not sure if I release 1.7.4
18:36:10 <mroman_> with every update old solutions are mostly deprecated
18:36:20 <mroman_> because now there's a builtin that does the same thing with less chars
18:36:41 <mroman_> and it's too much effort to check all your old submissions for new shortcuts
18:36:58 <Bicyclidine> write something to fix the old ones automatically
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18:41:18 <mroman_> I'm working on something else currently anyway
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18:52:00 <fizzie> I think it's quite unfair that anagolf's Befunge(-93) "." does not put the space after the number (completely contrary to the language spec) while the Befunge-98 one does.
18:52:05 <AndoDaan> There hasn't been a ngbl reseller in my area for years.
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18:55:34 <fizzie> @tell Bicyclidine $(realpath .) in GNU Make might have been helpful.
18:55:41 <fizzie> (I completely didn't notice the question.)
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18:58:09 <mroman_> AndoDaan_: If you fund me 1 Mio. $$$ it's not a Joke
18:58:14 <mroman_> otherwise... it *might* be a joke
18:58:22 <mroman_> but you can never be sure about how serious I am about stuff
18:58:29 <mroman_> fizzie: http://codepad.org/LS9sHDGN
18:58:33 <mroman_> Does that look about right?
19:00:38 <fizzie> I don't know the language, so I couldn't possibly comment about that side, but the overall structure looked quite sane.
19:01:49 <mroman_> LDW,STW are just Load and Store Word
19:02:00 <mroman_> LDW R3 R0 loads a word at address R0 into R3
19:02:08 <mroman_> STW R1 R4 stores R4 to address R1
19:02:30 <Sgeo> Would it be at all reasonable to learn Cocoa and Cocoa Touch by looking at it through Swift instead of Objective-C?
19:02:43 <fizzie> I guessed as much, but one couldn't really tell from the sample whether the addresses are word- or sub-word-unit-based.
19:02:54 <Sgeo> I guess not http://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/ios-developers-need-to-know-objective-c/
19:03:18 <mroman_> assembly is more fun than Burlesque .
19:03:47 * Sgeo ignores the "Objective-C is easier to learn than Swift" bit
19:03:50 <mroman_> Now I only need to write a routine that converts integers to Strings
19:04:37 <mroman_> fun fact: All jumps write to return address
19:04:44 <mroman_> there's no distinction between calls and jumps
19:04:56 <mroman_> (there's no CALL instruction. CALL is essentially JMP)
19:05:08 <mroman_> extra fun fact: it's one's complement
19:05:49 <Sgeo> Um. Is $600 a lot for a computer I'm only interested in because the OS seems interesting? That seems likely
19:07:01 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/oOrGV53a <- the spec
19:07:05 <mroman_> but codepad messes up some tabs :(
19:07:57 <fizzie> Aw, the http://www.mokehehe.com/z80golf/ link at https://sites.google.com/site/codegolfingtips/Home/z80 just goes to an ad portal thing.
19:08:15 <fizzie> I guess it's too late to learn that now. :)
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19:10:49 <mroman_> I haven't a working emulator so far
19:13:43 <mroman_> Didn't Haskell have IOVector?
19:13:56 <mroman_> I need efficient arrays if I'm going to do that in Haskell
19:15:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector
19:15:37 <mroman_> is unboxed faster than boxed?
19:15:47 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers
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19:16:38 <elliott_> can avoid copying and mutation
19:16:44 <elliott_> vectors you have to choose between copying or mutation
19:16:55 <elliott_> sharing is more powerful than you think; going straight to vectors is inadvisable when a hashmap might work
19:18:52 <elliott_> the Data.Array interface is generally deprecated in favour of vector when possible
19:18:59 <elliott_> vector has a nicer API and it's faster.
19:19:19 <mroman_> Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable
19:19:30 <mroman_> is unboxed faster for fixed with stuff?
19:20:25 <elliott_> is there no chance I can convince you to try HashMap first?
19:21:07 <mroman_> is that fast for lots of read/write accesses?
19:21:32 <mroman_> HashMap Int Word8 is what you recommend?
19:21:34 <elliott_> it has good asymptomatics and is pretty micro-optimised too
19:21:41 <elliott_> yes, I'd try that to start with
19:22:09 <elliott_> you can also use IntMap for Int keys, but I think HashMap is faster.
19:22:10 <mroman_> and I keep that in a monad state?
19:22:19 <mroman_> or just pass as arguments to my eval function?
19:22:49 <elliott_> whichever ends up being cleanest, really; I generally dislike huge transformer stacks
19:23:12 <elliott_> if it's in your State then it'll be pretty easy to translate to a mutable vector using ST if needs be
19:26:22 <mroman_> as long as put doesn't pile up huge memory junsk
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19:27:02 <elliott_> you should use the strict State monad
19:27:29 <elliott_> which won't be entirely strict. because HashMap isn't. but that's actually what you want :)
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19:38:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40592&oldid=40533 * 204.185.95.251 * (+3) /* small s.c.r.i.p.t. */
19:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40593&oldid=40592 * 204.185.95.251 * (-6) /* small s.c.r.i.p.t. */
19:40:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40594&oldid=40593 * 204.185.95.251 * (-1) /* SMATINY */
19:40:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40595&oldid=40594 * 204.185.95.251 * (-457) /* SMITH# */
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19:45:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:45:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40596&oldid=40595 * Ehird * (+461) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/204.185.95.251|204.185.95.251]] ([[User talk:204.185.95.251|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]]
19:46:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:204.185.95.251]] with an expiry time of 2 hours (anonymous users only): too sad an attempt to block for longer
19:47:28 <elliott_> are you using Tails? seems weird for them to infoleak in the IRC username like that, but I guess it's because the unix username is "amnesia" or something
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19:48:37 <mroman_> elliott_: I guess I can abstract in a Memory-Module
19:48:39 <HackEgo> 8) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 169) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncl
19:48:45 <HackEgo> 719) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
19:48:49 <mroman_> so I can exchange it by import Foo.Memory.HashMap
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19:56:52 <zzo38> What do the common terminal emulators do with CSI 5i and CSI 4i escape codes?
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20:04:23 <zzo38> At least PuTTY seems to ignore it when printing is disabled otherwise redirects output to the printer, and finishes the print job when CSI 4i is activated.
20:04:44 <zzo38> However, one document says "Start log; all received text is echoed to a printer."
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20:06:44 <zzo38> Another document says "Auto Print" is supposed to send to both but "Print Controller" is for printer only.
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20:12:30 <zzo38> O, now I see; I need to put a question mark before the 4 or 5.
20:13:27 <zzo38> Such thing still seems to be finishing the print job when CSI ?4i is sent; I do not want it to do that, though.
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20:15:44 <zzo38> What is the correct implementation?
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21:32:15 <FireFly> THe question mark-prefixed control sequences are typically nonstandard extensions, I think
21:36:11 <FireFly> According to ECMA-48, "CSI 5 i" is "start relay to a primary auxiliary device" and "CSI 4 i" is defined similarly for stopping, so it's not limited to printing it seems
21:37:04 <zzo38> FireFly: I know that the question mark means that, but I am unsure, if CSI 5 i is supposed to cause the output on both devices?
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21:40:45 <zzo38> And either way, is it supposed to finish a print job in such a case?
21:45:46 <shachaf> Taneb: are you taking a linear algebra module
21:46:17 <Taneb> I have linear algebra next term, but I have a vision and graphics module that had affine transformations
21:48:17 <shachaf> Taneb: do you know about affine and linear functions that are just : R -> R
21:48:59 <Taneb> (Only been shown R^2 -> R^2 and R^3 -> R^3)
21:49:19 <Taneb> (R -> R is not particularly relevant for computer vision or graphics, I guess)
21:49:46 <shachaf> Well, a linear function : R -> R is always of the form (\x -> k * x)
21:50:13 <shachaf> And an affine function : R -> R is always of the form (\x -> k * x + j) for some k and j
21:50:23 <Taneb> Isn't it \x -> k*x + c?
21:50:25 <shachaf> (I'm not sure why I'm using those letters.)
21:52:52 <fizzie> Insert affine-fine joke here.
21:52:54 <shachaf> Compare to lenses, where Lens' s a means (s ~~ (k,a)), and AffineTraversal' s a means (s ~~ (k,a) + c)
21:54:47 <shachaf> And of course a traversal means (s ~~ z + (y,a) + (x,a^2) + (w,a^3) + ...)
21:55:35 <shachaf> And a relevant traversal means (s ~~ (y,a) + (x,a^2) + (w,a^3) + ...)
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22:11:14 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> also that problem would be more enjoyable if the server tolerated trailing spaces <-- i see what you mean, i thought i had beaten you easily right until i actually tried submitting it...
22:11:51 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Asteriks+and+Obeliks+FIXED
22:12:19 <shachaf> that website loads so quickly
22:12:38 <oerjan> i wouldn't know, i had the tab open already
22:12:39 <shachaf> it's just a little bit of html. it doesn't even load google analytics or fancy images
22:12:52 <oerjan> oh you weren't being sarcastic
22:13:12 <shachaf> are you confusing me with elliott
22:13:28 <oerjan> no, with humanity of this age
22:13:31 <shachaf> I probably shouldn't have said that. :-(
22:13:38 <zzo38> It is good, I don't like it to have Google analytics and a lot of fancy images and fancy CSS
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23:01:32 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/ngbl/ <-- It's -> Its hth
23:02:54 <Taneb> oerjan is now a Yorkshireman
23:03:51 <oerjan> now its note spelt inn thus weigh
23:05:12 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't think you quite know what Yorkshirefolk sound like
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23:35:12 <FireFly> I see how the first and third samples of that anarchy golf task fit together, but not the second one..
23:45:21 <oerjan> FireFly: i also thought that for a while...
23:46:17 <oerjan> because except for the last column of that second example, all the "columns" are in a straight line
23:46:58 <oerjan> (i guess those are supposed to be the obelisks alluded to)
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23:55:25 <oerjan> > (3,1,2) & partsOf each %~ sort