00:00:05 <int-e> oerjan: well, k=1(mod k-1), so k^n = 1^n (mod k-1), done.
00:00:19 <Taneb> I shall have to prove this so-called standard result myself at some point
00:00:25 <oerjan> int-e: is there a terrible lag between us
00:00:59 <int-e> oerjan: no, I pressed the return key before reading what you wrote.
00:01:33 <int-e> timestamps: 01:59:46 <oerjan> 02:00:04 <int-e>
00:02:50 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_prime#Theorems_about_Mersenne_numbers it's also #2 here
00:11:25 <int-e> Hmm... show that if 4^a + b^4 is prime then either a = b = 1 or a is even.
00:11:38 <int-e> Taneb: for you ;-)
00:12:44 <Taneb> Awww it's quarter past one in the morning
00:12:57 <Taneb> I should really sleep so I can hand this assignment in before my 10:30 lecture
00:13:17 <int-e> quintopia: it has an elementary solution
00:13:34 <Sgeo> "I returned the iPhone to Apple because it didn't have a "back" button."
00:13:41 <Sgeo> Sounds like a feature, not a bug, to me
00:13:57 <Sgeo> (In case anyone hadn't noticed, I hate the back button)
00:14:25 <quintopia> int-e: it's not at all obvious to me
00:14:27 <int-e> quintopia: but yeah, it's not easy to find.
00:15:03 <quintopia> i mean, like it's not even obvious at first glance that 4^3+5^4=689 is composite!
00:15:30 <oerjan> i quickly found that b had to be divisible by 5, anyhow
00:15:33 <quintopia> int-e: is it based on one of those factoring tricks
00:15:50 <int-e> quintopia: of course
00:16:05 <quintopia> yeah i can never see those stupid things
00:16:12 <Bike> 2,3,4,6,9,8,12,18,27,...
00:16:16 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAA!
00:17:54 <boily> what did you today?
00:22:11 <quintopia> int-e: i think i see it. has to do with the fact you can write 4^a as 4*(2^k)^4 for a odd, where k>0?
00:22:29 <boily> chinese fooded with a friend, then we went to the other side of the city to go see an insect exhibition, then beer and snacks.
00:23:31 <oerjan> were the insects the snacks twh
00:23:48 <quintopia> oerjan: don't knock it if you haven't tried it
00:24:03 <oerjan> sorry, insects are not cricket around here
00:24:16 <quintopia> boily: i also "finished" my password generator prototype
00:24:55 <boily> oerjan: in fact, I tasted some grasshopers (and bough a jar of salsa) at a kiosk, but the snacks that we ordered with the beers were more conventional (chorizo, chutney and bread)
00:25:17 <quintopia> that's not conventional around here.
00:25:21 <boily> quintopia: finishing a prototype is an oxymoron.
00:25:50 <boily> the chorizo was deliciously smokey, and the chutney mustardey.
00:26:02 <boily> indeed, a subtle but important vocabulary difference.
00:26:33 <quintopia> on friday i went with a friend to a bar and we started a game of cards against humanity with random strangers
00:27:15 <quintopia> i feel like i should just quit my job
00:27:27 <boily> hmm... iirc there's a taco-serving bar in the Mile End, but reviews agree that the place is beyond terrible.
00:27:39 <boily> quintopia: do as lexande did, and visit me ^^
00:27:58 <oerjan> ok now i just have 2 chars more than int-e
00:28:19 <quintopia> i would totally visit you. i will visit everyone that wants to be visited. (sorry oerjan.)
00:35:06 <Sgeo> quintopia: do you yourself want to be visited, and does this mean you will visit yourself?
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00:45:42 <ais523> Sgeo: quintopia visits everyone who does not visit themself
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00:53:07 <boily> my beard is hard to shave. it'd be the Challenge Boss Beard at the end of the Visit Quest.
00:53:50 <oerjan> i'd have to grow one first.
00:54:35 <AndoDaan> will :t always show what a function does?
00:54:46 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:56:05 <AndoDaan> yeah, i messed up... for stuff like :t (a,b) it coincidentally show's what it does
00:56:34 <AndoDaan> but :t (==) just shows bool after a couple ->
00:56:40 <Bike> it is pretty good for seeing what a function does.
00:57:00 <Bike> It takes an a, and gives you a thing that takes an a and returns a Bool, where a has to be in the "Eq" class.
00:57:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Eq’
00:57:06 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘EQ’ (imported from Data.Ord)
00:57:17 <Bike> Eq is a class, not a type
00:57:21 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't have :i
00:57:23 <Bike> well, a "typeclass" i guess
00:57:32 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you can try :i Eq in GHCi
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00:57:51 <Bike> A typeclass is just an abstract definition, a very little bit like a virtual class definition in OOP Language Du Jou
00:58:15 <Bike> things in the Eq class have to have == defined, and probably some other crap
00:58:28 <oerjan> oh right :i Eq will give a big list of known instances
00:58:46 <boily> Bike: only (==) is necessary, because (/=) has a default implementation. that's about it for Eq.
00:58:58 <Bike> he said it was long and i'm too lazy to pull up local ghci
00:59:56 <oerjan> it's the instance list that's long.
01:00:16 <oerjan> mostly because of all the tuple lengths.
01:00:16 <Bike> oh, that makes sense. the definition is short, but lots of things have == work on them.
01:01:11 <Bike> anyway so if you have your own type you can define an == method on it, and then other functions already defined in terms of == will work with your type.
01:01:23 <oerjan> Bike: careful about comparing haskell typeclasses to OO classes, soon you'll be teaching AndoDaan bad habits >:)
01:01:30 <Bike> way ahead of you
01:01:56 <Bike> if you don't stop me i'll tell andodaan that haskell is a programming language and not homotopy type theory. mwa ha ha ha ha
01:02:16 * oerjan doesn't know homotopy type theory anyway
01:02:35 <AndoDaan> something to do with topological mapping>
01:02:47 <AndoDaan> sounds like good words to guess at.
01:04:16 <oerjan> a homotopy in "ordinary" math is a topological mapping of a sort. also a _path_ between two other topological mappings.
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01:05:03 <oerjan> but how that's got analogized/transfered into type theory of programming languages (not really haskell, though) i'm very unsure about.
01:05:22 <oerjan> i think category theory got involved in the middle :P
01:05:56 <AndoDaan> i mean, i kinda know what those things are.
01:06:16 <shachaf> oerjan: just, like, ∞ groupoids, man
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01:16:37 <AndoDaan_> ah cool, just wrote a fibonacci equation, on my own.
01:18:09 <oerjan> now make one that doesn't have exponential blowup hth (tdnh)
01:18:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:18:36 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
01:18:47 <oerjan> hope that clears it up
01:20:50 <AndoDaan_> is there a way to define fib n without recursion? like using an approximation of the golden ratio?
01:21:07 <ais523> AndoDaan_: there's a closed-form formula that calculates it directly
01:21:12 <quintopia> Sgeo: i visit myself whenever the urge overtakes me. and no one's looking, of course.
01:23:51 <oerjan> mind you, that closed formula uses floating point, so you might get rounding errors.
01:24:15 <oerjan> (it has the golden ratio and its inverse in it)
01:24:37 <shachaf> i thought phi was a real number but it turns out it was a floating point all along :'(
01:25:04 <oerjan> real numbers are just points in R hth
01:26:00 <shachaf> real numbers are, like, crazy, man
01:26:01 <oerjan> there is also a formula using matrix exponentiation, which can use exact integers.
01:28:40 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
01:31:04 <oerjan> @let instance Num a => Num [[a]] where m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:31:05 <lambdabot> ‘+’, ‘abs’, ‘signum’, ‘fromInteger’, and (either ‘negate’ or ‘-’)
01:31:05 <lambdabot> In the instance declaration for ‘Num [[a]]’
01:31:23 <oerjan> don't tell me that means it won't take
01:31:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show t0)
01:31:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M650974571118004358930528.show_M6509745711180043589...
01:31:39 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:31:39 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:31:39 <lambdabot> instance [safe] GHC.Show.Show L.Poles -- Defined at L.hs:157:1
01:31:55 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [[GHC.Types.Int]])
01:33:06 <shachaf> best pragma or bester pragma?
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01:33:38 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:35:30 <oerjan> @let fib n = head$head$[[1,1],[1,0]]^n
01:35:44 <AndoDaan_> i'm a way off from constructing something like that.
01:35:44 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [1..20]]
01:35:46 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946]
01:36:20 <oerjan> AndoDaan_: making matrix multiplication work with lists may be a _tiny_ bit non-recommended.
01:36:33 <AndoDaan_> although i could figure it had something to do with the sum of tails.
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01:36:41 <shachaf> hoorærjan for making fib 0 = 1
01:36:46 <Bike> no addition...
01:36:54 <boily> shachaf: æ? not even œ?
01:37:15 <oerjan> Bike: i only implemented what was needed to make ^ work
01:37:16 <Bike> still waiting on inner products btw
01:37:31 <shachaf> Bike: what's an inner product
01:37:38 <Bike> like dot product, but moreso\
01:37:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i wasn't sure which matrix element was the right one, sorry
01:39:39 <quintopia> boily: gah work is going to be a PITA this week
01:39:51 <oerjan> shachaf: fib 0 = 0 is prettier, you get fib (gcd m n) = gcd (fib m) (fib n)
01:40:40 <oerjan> and also abs(fib (-n)) == abs(fib n)
01:41:07 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:41:16 <shachaf> oerjan: but the children's book i learned about fib from started it off with 1,1
01:41:24 <oerjan> @let fib n = [[1,1],[1,0]]^n!!1!!1
01:41:31 <quintopia> boily: should i feel bad if i just leave the dog unwalked, and get up early tomorrow?
01:41:41 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:41:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
01:41:43 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Num.Num t => [[[t]]]
01:42:38 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger=ud;m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:43:14 <oerjan> @let fib n = ([[1,1],[1,0]]^n)!!1!!0
01:43:21 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:43:33 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [1..20]]
01:43:35 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765]
01:43:52 <oerjan> it won't work for 0 because i didn't define fromIntegral.
01:45:19 <boily> quintopia: only meanies unwalk dogs.
01:45:48 <boily> (unless it's a chihuahua; then it permanently walks only by cumulative vibration.)
01:46:35 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger n=[[n,0],[0,n]];m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:46:36 <lambdabot> bound by the instance declaration at .L.hs:154:10-29
01:46:36 <lambdabot> ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
01:46:58 <oerjan> @let ud=undefined; instance Num a => Num [[a]] where (+)=ud;(-)=ud;abs=ud;signum=ud;fromInteger n=[[fromInteger n,0],[0,fromInteger n]];m*n = [[sum$zipWith(*) m' n' | n' <- tn]| m' <- m] where tn = transpose n
01:47:07 <oerjan> @let fib n = ([[1,1],[1,0]]^n)!!1!!0
01:47:12 <oerjan> > [fib n | n <- [0..20]]
01:47:14 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765]
01:47:54 <lambdabot> 3364476487643178326662161200510754331030214846068006390656476997468008144216...
01:51:38 <FireFly> [ fib =: 3 :'{: {: (+/ .*)^:y~ 1 1,.1 0'
01:51:55 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34
01:52:39 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in fib 10000 - (phi ** 10000 - (1 - phi) ** 10000) / sqrt 5
01:52:50 <Bike> and, i suppose, obvious
01:55:37 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in fib 100 - (phi ** 100 - (1 - phi) ** 100) / sqrt 5
01:56:18 <Bike> > let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in (fib 10, (phi ** 10 - (1 - phi) ** 10) / sqrt 5)
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04:16:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OrthINTERCAL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40629&oldid=25606 * 157.182.186.93 * (+36) Changed dead link to archive.org link
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06:38:48 <Sgeo> If I keep suddenly getting interest in things I hate, does this mean someday I will be interested in (and potentially attempt to defend) PHP?
06:41:22 <ais523> Sgeo: you should do that, watching you attempting to defend PHP would be hilarious
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07:06:50 <Sgeo> "These loosely-typed variables are one of the properties that make PHP such an easy and powerful language, although they can sometimes also cause interesting problems
07:14:32 <Sgeo> Huh. PHP variables are copy-on-write. That's actually interesting.
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07:20:53 <InvalidCo> Sgeo: did you know the real reason behind PHPs odd, inconsistent function naming schemes?
07:21:43 <Sgeo> Because different things were added by different people? Oh, wait, the whole 'we want certain number of functions with different lengths of names'/
07:21:50 <InvalidCo> originally, PHP's function dispatch used string length for a hash-function
07:22:13 <InvalidCo> so it was more optimized to have a smoother distribution across
07:22:51 <InvalidCo> of course, I haven't cleaned any gutters lately so I can't say if they've finally got a saner or a zanier naming scheme
07:23:49 <Sgeo> Ok. If I'm understanding PHP references properly... it's hard to mix both the normal COW behavior and the reference behavior, because each zval either has references or not?
07:24:29 <Sgeo> Yay I guessed right "Something interesting—and perhaps unexpected— happens if you mix an assign-by-value call and an assign-by-reference call. "
07:26:28 <Sgeo> Oh, no I didn't
07:26:42 <Sgeo> PHP tries to keep things sane, by considering it a write, I guess?
07:27:16 <Sgeo> Well, done reading for now
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07:29:00 <InvalidCo> I guess PHP isn't that bad if you code it on your time off
07:29:20 <InvalidCo> just competing with the other kids, seeing who can make the biggest sand castle
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08:11:50 <mroman> @tell oerjan I figured that already out :)
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09:10:26 <fizzie> InvalidCo: Re QBasic http://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html
09:10:52 <fizzie> (I did that HTMLization of the help file a way back, and want to get maximum use out of it.)
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09:44:00 <mroman> Does PHP have an @deprecated or something?
09:44:35 <mroman> people are still using mysql_* for new apps
09:45:49 <mroman> also books in CS schools are still using PHP 4
09:46:27 <mroman> that's not surprising :)
09:46:49 <mroman> our maps in geography in Sekundarschule still had the sowjet union on it :)
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10:53:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
10:53:38 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr’
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11:11:17 <fizzie> elliott: Bad news, I got a second job offer too.
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12:00:30 <Jafet> You could give one of them away.
12:01:08 <Jafet> Of course, the difficulty is choosing which one.
12:02:38 <int-e> Throw a coin, then decide whether to accept its decision or not :P
12:03:33 <int-e> (It's funny. I believe this could actually help me in making decisions, simply by establishing a default option.)
12:04:39 <Jafet> Throw a coin, then set the upper face to represent the decision you wanted to make
12:15:21 <int-e> Jafet: that would defeat the purpose.
12:15:31 <int-e> But I think you knew that.
12:15:57 <int-e> And of course you should use whatever self-deception tricks that work for *you*.
12:22:00 <mroman> int-e: That's kinda why I have http://mroman.ch/cgi/whichlang.pl
12:25:25 <Jafet> I know that self-deception doesn't really work, but believing it just makes life easier.
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12:35:42 <mroman> J_Arcane: By visiting the link above your legally bound to actually use the language it suggested .
12:36:01 <J_Arcane> I don't even know 90% of those.
12:36:06 <mroman> I hope you got COBOL!!!
12:36:59 <mroman> BANCSTAR is in there too
12:41:57 <J_Arcane> ahahahaha. http://www.i-programmer.info/news/204-challenges/6474-cobol-code-contest-challenge.html
12:44:35 <J_Arcane> http://academic.microfocus.com/code/
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13:08:58 <mroman> Become a star programmer with BANCSTAR.
13:09:18 <mroman> BANCSTAR. Only $9.95. (+ Manual for $99)
13:15:33 <lambdabot> mroman said 5h 3m 43s ago: I figured that already out :)
13:20:01 <mroman> There was one at least.
13:20:54 <mroman> I've never heard from jloughry again
13:21:03 <mroman> so I suspect he didn't find it and he also couldn't restore the floppy
13:27:40 <b_jonas> so people who try to figure out bancstar disappear?
13:27:59 <mroman> probably has something to do with the moon landing
13:28:07 <b_jonas> mroman: more likely with boojums
13:28:08 <mroman> People say BANCStar was involved in the hoax.
13:29:37 <oerjan> duh, BANCStar is the moon's _real_ name
13:31:29 <oerjan> also, today's xkcd is relevant.
13:32:07 <oerjan> i recommend reloading hth
13:33:17 <oerjan> (maybe xkcd has regional obnoxious caching. _that_ would be weird.)
13:33:44 <int-e> it could be a misconfigured proxy.
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14:19:56 <Taneb> One of my lecturers has sent me a couple of esolang-like things used in PhDs
14:21:02 <Taneb> http://strlen.com/aardappel-language is one
14:21:14 <Taneb> Concurrent tree-reduction, at a glance
14:21:29 <Taneb> With... inter-tree communication?
14:22:31 <Taneb> http://synrc.com/publications/cat/Category%20Theory/Type%20Theory/Hagino%20T.%20A%20Categorical%20Programming%20Language.pdf is the other, seems to have a lot of Category Theory in it
14:23:16 <Taneb> "Data types are declared using F,G-dialgebras and each data type is associated with its own control structure."
14:26:50 * oerjan remembers hearing about aardappel here before
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18:40:02 <Jafet> So is this esoteric or just plain retarded http://hal.inria.fr/hal-00762330/PDF/paper-ieee.pdf
18:40:35 <Jafet> (Blazy and Giacobazzi, "Towards a formally verified obfuscating compiler")
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18:55:07 <mroman> AndoDaan_: Fibonacci Numbers is hard :)
18:55:34 <mroman> Fibonacci Numbers is easy
18:55:38 <mroman> Fibonacci Number is hard
18:55:43 <mroman> (two different challenges)
18:56:16 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Number <- the hard one
18:56:25 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Numbers <- the easy one
18:57:10 <b_jonas> hmm, that hard one asks for the 71th fibonacci number. that's too large to compute with my regex solution
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19:00:23 <mroman> Fibonacci is just a Continuation of Addition
19:03:44 <mroman> not even gs2 beats Burlesque at Fibonacci
19:04:05 <mroman> but I think mauris will push an update to gs2 to get <10B :(
19:04:41 <mroman> AndoDaan_: The trick is to do something like this
19:05:02 <mroman> !blsq 1 1^^j^^.+^^j^^.+#s
19:05:30 <FreeFull> In a specialised stack-based language, fibbonacci would be 2]1]+d.
19:05:47 <blsqbot> {233 144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1}
19:06:47 <FreeFull> Based on a stack which loops around
19:06:57 <mroman> just execute addition n-times on the stack without destroying the arguments to Addition
19:07:06 <mroman> that's exactly what 10C! does
19:07:09 <FreeFull> You can get rid of the d. if you make output implicit
19:07:16 <mroman> it executes .+ 10 times on the stack without destroying the arguments
19:07:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:26 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:28 <blsqbot> 734544867157818093234908902110449296423351
19:07:31 <blsqbot> 581811569836004006491505558634099066259034153405766997246569401
19:07:34 <blsqbot> 46083597875350357822621588307387224638576447208679708287320318854254461644824834
19:07:38 <blsqbot> 36501474072363421101223707790647935599608158150145549785274782936680019936155017
19:07:41 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:07:43 <blsqbot> 28911753224200479465784293958052399219220608157483365108350572978936438524949474
19:07:49 <FreeFull> You have to initialise everything somehow
19:07:53 <FreeFull> That makes things more complicated
19:07:59 <blsqbot> 14367013614608593758393119085902136148903960934548935960896147901619817146083434
19:08:02 <blsqbot> 13963900747924802197891995921996856368918424126603691200660357769322735706873056
19:08:10 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:08:17 <blsqbot> 10155271254877282719737169416675589367560656417382702545186421663823487395855700
19:08:28 <b_jonas> in a non-idealized stack based language, it's like this:
19:08:32 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -20
19:08:32 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:08:42 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:08:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: c: not found
19:08:54 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
19:09:03 <mroman> b_jonas: Can it calculate the 5000thst fibonacci number?
19:09:04 <b_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx|head -20
19:09:04 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
19:09:11 <b_jonas> mroman: that first one can, yes
19:09:20 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed 50
19:09:20 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:09:24 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50
19:09:24 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:09:37 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed 50\!d
19:09:37 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:10:12 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p
19:10:13 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:10:23 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p
19:10:27 <int-e> `` seq 10 | sed 5q
19:10:56 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|sed -n 50p;50q
19:11:22 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -n50|tail -n1
19:11:28 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|head -n500|tail -n1
19:11:29 <HackEgo> 388484183426537766350753518180972865642314621443875164454555847769482\
19:11:51 <b_jonas> dc breaks long numbers to multiple lines
19:12:10 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -N -40
19:12:11 <HackEgo> tail: invalid option -- 'N' \ Try `tail --help' for more information.
19:12:14 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n -40
19:12:20 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n +40
19:12:22 <HackEgo> 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903 \ 2971215073 \ 4807526976 \ 7778742049 \ 12586269025 \ 20365011074 \ 32951280099 \ 53316291173 \ 86267571272 \ 139583862445 \ 225851433717 \ 365435296162 \ 591286729879 \ 956722026041 \ 1548008755920 \ 2504730781961 \ 4052739537881 \ 6557470319842 \ 10610209857723 \
19:12:23 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+60000000C!th
19:12:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:12:28 <b_jonas> `run dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx|tail -n +80
19:12:28 <HackEgo> 23416728348467685 \ 37889062373143906 \ 61305790721611591 \ 99194853094755497 \ 160500643816367088 \ 259695496911122585 \ 420196140727489673 \ 679891637638612258 \ 1100087778366101931 \ 1779979416004714189 \ 2880067194370816120 \ 4660046610375530309 \ 7540113804746346429 \ 12200160415121876738 \ 19740274219868223167 \ 31940434634990099905 \ 5168070
19:12:31 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+6000000C!th
19:12:31 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
19:12:51 <mroman> I guess th isn't very lazy
19:13:06 <mroman> !blsq 1 1q.+6000000C!{}#S
19:13:07 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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19:13:56 <mroman> AndoDaan_: Fibonacci is 1 1q.+NNC! :)
19:14:15 <mroman> I'll tell you that because that one's an example program on the esolang page anyway
19:14:29 <mroman> (so it's spoilered there anyway)
19:14:48 <mroman> Fibonacci Number on the other hand requires some serious thinking to get 14B :D
19:15:19 <b_jonas> argh, I can never get anagolf accept any of my solutions that are supposed to work with 1/9 probability
19:15:28 <b_jonas> (there can't be more than 3 tests, so that's common)
19:15:48 <mroman> just write a script that submitts it twice a minute
19:15:57 <mroman> that's how the pros are doing it
19:18:50 <b_jonas> argh, the easier http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Fibonacci+Numbers asks for too many numbers for my regex solution to work too
19:19:01 <b_jonas> mind you, it's too long anyway
19:21:41 <b_jonas> let me see if I can adapt my dc solution though
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19:22:00 <b_jonas> I'll have to edit it to stop after 45 lines
19:29:12 <b_jonas> 23. but there must be a way to cut a few chars
19:30:40 <b_jonas> only 2 worse than the record in dc
19:38:25 <b_jonas> and I only had to perturb my existing golf that prints the existing sequence:
19:38:41 <b_jonas> as in, modify it to stop after a while, then fix so it starts and stops with exactly the right line
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19:59:13 <elliott> fizzie: does that job offer come with a dangerously high risk of #esoteric meetups?
20:00:03 <elliott> int-e: I often flip a coin when I think I can't decide between options, so that when I immediately regret it landing on one side I can see that I actually have a preference.
20:00:09 <elliott> okay, I don't actually flip a coin.
20:00:14 <elliott> but I imagine doing it and that's good enough.
20:00:56 <elliott> Taneb: the cerator of aardappel (nick aardappel, in fact) is actually an op here
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20:16:51 <olsner> are jobs supposed to cause #esoteric meetups?
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20:44:12 <HackEgo> olist (965): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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20:50:51 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know how many .de people there are on channel.
20:55:25 <Bicyclidine> how would you rate your ability to survive in a six cubic meter container?
20:56:22 <Taneb> I would like to state I am in favour of a #esoteric UK meetup although I don't think there are that many
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21:06:07 <fizzie> Taneb: If you haven't caught the news, next year I might be one, depending.
21:12:24 <Taneb> People in the UK who would be interested
21:12:33 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: six cubic meter? that's small. survive for how long, and what's in the container?
21:12:53 <Taneb> fizzie, I will *probably* be in York
21:13:17 <elliott> Taneb: me, you, ph, ais523, cpressey, impomatic, fizzie(?) is the list I know
21:13:29 <elliott> well, no idea about interest
21:13:39 <elliott> but presence in the UK is close enough :p
21:13:46 <b_jonas> elliott: that would be a lot if you could get all together to a meetup, but that's unlikely
21:13:59 <elliott> b_jonas: just need a bit of coercion
21:14:04 <Taneb> cpressey is in the UK?
21:14:31 <b_jonas> maybe try to organize it some time when some other esoteric person visits the UK
21:14:45 <Taneb> By what I know about locations of where we are, Birmingham is a not-terrible place to meet up
21:15:01 <Taneb> Excluding the fact that, in general, Birmingham is a terrible place :P
21:15:31 <elliott> Taneb: I hear ais523 is still offering INTERCAL lessons to anyone who shows up
21:15:36 <Bicyclidine> b_jonas: me, ais, cpressey, and elliott are in the container. you are armed with a sharp piece of metal
21:15:53 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, this is a really weird text adventure
21:16:24 <Bicyclidine> i only tell the truth, elliott only lies, and ais is debating whether having you eat the rings on his fingers is a good idea
21:17:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: you mean, terrible compared to England in general?
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21:18:58 <Taneb> York is much nicer, from what I've experienced
21:20:07 <b_jonas> I wonder, in general, is the UK going to become a worse place in the following decade if they're trying to copy all the bad ideas from the US in a faster rate than the rest of Europe is?
21:20:17 <b_jonas> And are they even trying that?
21:20:21 <Taneb> York has a street with more letters in its name than meters in its length!
21:20:55 <b_jonas> Hmm... I think we might have such a short street too. I'm not sure
21:21:56 <elliott> b_jonas: the UK has been working hard on becoming a worse place for much longer than this decade tyvm
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21:23:45 <b_jonas> hmm no, more letters than length in meter is a strong challenge. we probably don't have such a streed
21:24:27 <b_jonas> we probably don't have such a street, but it's hard to be sure
21:24:51 <Taneb> (that was a bit of an exaggeration,upon checking the street has 16 letters (although more characters if you count hyphens) but 17 meters)
21:25:24 <Taneb> The co-op closes in 30 minutes
21:26:40 <Taneb> Or I could stay here and continue listening to Eurovision songs
21:26:45 <Taneb> ...when I put it like that....
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21:42:46 <FreeFull> If I move out of the UK, where should I move to?
21:52:40 <Taneb> FreeFull, I hear York is nice
21:52:53 <Taneb> (York city council does not pay me to advertise York)
21:53:05 <FreeFull> Yeah, I'm in Reading right now, for university
21:53:32 <Taneb> FreeFull, no it isn't
21:54:02 <FreeFull> York has done what Scotland didn't dare to?
21:54:50 <Taneb> (I'm being silly, but there is actually a Yorkshire independence movement)
21:55:00 <Taneb> (they're a bunch of loonies as far as I know)
21:56:03 <Taneb> FreeFull, what do you study?
21:59:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:10:32 <Taneb> FreeFull, I'm doing a Computer Science and Maths degree with an integrated Master's
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22:17:33 <paul2520> ...but there are a lot of great places in the States!
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22:43:37 <oerjan> b_jonas: so Nevéthosszaméteresrövidebb Utca doesn't exist?
22:44:13 <boily> one of these words is not like the others...
22:46:08 <Sgeo> I think I'm not a fan of Forth-like languages that try to eliminate the space after ". It means that custom string-like things look notably different from normal strings
22:47:42 <boily> oerjan: N24b. unless the conversation between you and b_jonas extends in time (meaning I'll have to peruse the logs), then the probability of unlikely words greatly increases htdh
22:48:19 <oerjan> boily: it was in the log but i wasn't part of it hth
22:48:39 <oerjan> also i was just playing with google translate
22:49:20 <boily> I am déçu. long agglutinated words fascinate me.
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22:49:36 <oerjan> boily: ok google translate didn't provide the agglutination part.
22:50:05 <boily> (disappointed. déçu is disappointed. my brain's been skipping word lately...)
22:50:40 <boily> imagine: French being an agglutinative language. it would be magistral.
22:51:05 <oerjan> there are some who claim french _is_ an agglutinative language, which just has an archaic spelling system.
22:51:52 <oerjan> as in, if you invented french spelling today, a lot of words would be fused together.
22:52:25 <Taneb> Are there any agglutinative programming languages?
22:52:55 <boily> si tétè pour ékrir el fransè kom ke sa se pronons, le mond orè dla mizèr à lir skyé tékri.
22:53:11 * Sgeo wonders if it would make sense to implement Ngaro VM in Second Life
22:53:21 <boily> Taneb: I think the Forth-family is what nears the most the concept of agglutination.
22:53:43 <oerjan> burlesque and underload, things that are forth-like with no spaces?
22:54:03 <Taneb> Sgeo, you're in #esoteric. That makes more sense than most things that are on-topic here
22:54:23 <Taneb> I do not knoq Burlesque
22:54:50 <oerjan> Taneb: you really haven't been paying attention to the channel lately, have you
22:55:06 <Bicyclidine> i've seen like fifty burlesque programs now and don't know anything about it
22:55:16 <Taneb> oerjan, I mean, I know OF it
22:55:21 <Taneb> I just have no idea what is going on
22:55:25 <boily> Bicyclidine: it means you haven't inhaled enough of mroman's aura.
22:55:39 <Taneb> I have no idea what's going on in general, though
22:56:54 <Sgeo> I can't support most of these I/O ports
22:57:33 <Sgeo> I have text output, but no way to output in increments less than a line. I don't have a console
22:57:44 <Sgeo> Unless I consider 'nearby chat' a console
22:57:56 <Sgeo> Such a bad idea
22:58:08 <oerjan> Taneb: it's a language that's essentially underload-like but with heaps of additional commands.
22:58:26 <oerjan> also some laziness invented from haskell which it's implemented in
22:58:41 <Taneb> Ah, kind of like what I sort of meant Fueue to be
22:59:47 <lambdabot> CYUL 202200Z 07003KT 15SM SCT060 BKN075 OVC095 06/01 A2993 RMK SC3AC4AC1 SLP138
23:00:45 <oerjan> burlesque has become somewhat popular for golfing, although it tends to lose somewhat to other golfing languages because it has very few one-char commands, defaulting to two instead.
23:01:13 <oerjan> (this is my impression. i don't actually know burlesque although i once helped prove it TC.)
23:01:43 <Taneb> oerjan, you seem to be the person-to-go-for when a language needs proving TC
23:01:44 <oerjan> although it now has so many added commands that it would be more surprising if it _weren't_ TC.
23:03:44 <oerjan> i do seem to have got a reputation yes
23:04:54 <AndoDaan> is turing completeness mostly proved by mapping the language onto an already tc proven one?
23:05:04 <oerjan> AndoDaan: the other way around
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23:05:49 <oerjan> technically you need both ways, but assuming the language is implementable at all, the other way is usually somewhat trivial.
23:06:47 <Taneb> oerjan, I thought you only need both ways for Turing-equivalence, which, if you ignore Turing-Church, is stronger?
23:06:48 <oerjan> since you can use as powerful an already-TC language you want for implementing you new one _in_, but for the other direction you want something simple so you don't have to work so hard
23:07:08 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1).
23:07:52 <elliott> I feel like I could probably make a really compact golfing language if I wanted.
23:08:02 <oerjan> Taneb: um not if turing-complete works like NP-complete, although i'm not sure if the term is that well-defined. but if it is, the version with only one way would be "turing-hard".
23:08:38 <Taneb> elliott, if it's done by characters rather than bytes, just use Unicode :)
23:08:44 <oerjan> that is, i interpret turing-complete as the same as turing-equivalent, i guess.
23:09:18 <elliott> Taneb: I mean more interestingly than that.
23:09:54 <Taneb> I think the hard bit'd be moving data around?
23:10:00 <Taneb> Haven't really thought about it much
23:10:05 <elliott> Taneb: and you don't have to ignore Church-Turing, it's a vague philosophical statement
23:10:11 <elliott> you can certainly make machines with halting oracles in theory
23:11:14 <oerjan> like on the wiki, brainhype and banana scheme are turing hard, but too strong to be turing equivalent
23:11:59 <oerjan> (they are essentially just adding halting oracles to brainfuck and scheme respectively.)
23:15:07 <oerjan> although brainhype is weaker because the recursion of halting oracles is limited by syntax rather than ordinals.
23:16:21 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
23:19:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CYCLOPEAN CHICKEN).
23:21:01 <elliott> oerjan: I think "super-TC" is evidence that people use TC to mean equivalent
23:23:31 <Taneb> Ambiguity in language makes me sad
23:24:55 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm going to head to bed now
23:59:37 <Sgeo> Can an Android fan explain this to me: I am using an app. A notification from Gmail about an email comes up. I activate it and read the email. I then press back. Instead of going back to the last app I was in, I go to my inbox.