< 1414368097 62968 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1414368991 363674 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414369163 761931 :MoALTz!~no@user-164-127-68-184.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1414370426 645559 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell fizzie There are some "standard" languages/systems for showing TC-ness. BCT, Brainfuck and Unlambda (well, S and K), perhaps? And maybe the two-counter Minsky machine. <-- i've also had some luck with the underload :()^ fragment < 1414370426 866353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1414370443 57001 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :after i first proved that it was TC < 1414370511 531164 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was what you used for Fueue initially, right? < 1414370520 807605 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1414370560 714010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i got FALSE as a corollary, since it has those commands < 1414370601 162265 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and i implemented _all_ of underload in emmental. < 1414370730 737897 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a fun way of doing it, each character (with a few control char exceptions for temporary storage) were rewritten to implement themselves as underload commands, in three different modes < 1414370735 402678 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was < 1414370862 329347 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct execution mode, quoting mode (started by '(' and halted by ')') and printing mode (used by S so that printing string was simply running it as commands in that mode) < 1414370881 645107 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a string < 1414370882 385120 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figuring out what shift codes to use isn't the only thing needed to compress Z-machine text. There is also figuring out how to fill up the frequent words table, and doing suffix optimization. < 1414373496 426958 :Tod-Autojoined!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414373526 907892 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414374252 381920 :Tod-Autojoined!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net NICK :TodPunk < 1414374851 982649 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1414375220 615444 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1414375447 379759 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: INSUBSTANTIAL CHICKEN < 1414375523 156183 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you like NES songs, or am I imagining that you're the sort of person who would like those? < 1414375566 242319 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.reddit.com/r/gravityfalls/comments/2kdre0/since_people_are_liking_gravity_falls_8bit/ < 1414375727 411976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I have a .NSF music playing right now in my computer, and I have also made some such music files myself too. < 1414375777 254456 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: see my link for a particular theme that someone made an nsf version of < 1414375800 415198 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I will look < 1414375917 718923 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I downloaded this file, but why shouldn't you just make a direct link? < 1414376017 551043 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is good < 1414376133 896698 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) didn't think of making a direct link < 1414376207 443448 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you have any idea of how I can automatically fill up the frequent words table? < 1414376854 866643 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like you'd need to calculate word frequencies of actual use... < 1414376902 437174 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't necessarily have to be single words though; they can be any string. < 1414376952 121127 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they are in that table, then any non-fword string that contains them can use only two Z-characters to reference something in the frequent words table (shift state is irrelevant). < 1414377855 43854 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414377899 834228 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1414378054 462356 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Client Quit < 1414378177 839791 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1414378274 38309 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1414378320 378294 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Client Quit < 1414378410 549931 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1414378549 716655 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net NICK :BillCipher < 1414378553 169709 :BillCipher!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net NICK :Sgeo < 1414378557 277345 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blah, registered < 1414378635 836862 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: O, and if you want to see other .NSF musics, you can look at Famicompo; they have a lot. < 1414379503 232948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414379520 314838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414379735 173977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1414379761 483158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414379815 146441 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDud < 1414379818 777062 :MDud!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1414379997 160613 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-50defd-78.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414380705 305542 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to me that although Scala often looks like you're defining custom syntax, it's possible to use the same stuff as a normal function call, meaning that other languages would be able to use even the DSLy things that Scala lets you define, which is kind of cool < 1414380743 962445 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe not so much with implicits < 1414380821 55932 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Another thing that complicates it is length of words, shift states, and profitability. There are at most 96 fwords, although some of them may be manually defined or dynamically set up, or possibly some slots might be unused. You might also see my "Tricky Document" for a few details. < 1414380922 46494 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1414381239 686190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/tricky.txt < 1414382135 768352 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask int-e ok how the hell did you and henkma find essentially the same insanely clever trick for swap the characters (and it's not _much_ of a cheat, it only requires the word to be at least 4 chars long...) < 1414382135 958365 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1414382254 560345 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-50defd-78.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1414383090 879073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1414383205 782246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414383454 855301 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it is a bit strange that optimizing a SET instruction in XZIP and YZIP sometimes requires factorization of numbers? < 1414383631 519380 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But only if the number you want to set it to is bigger than 510) < 1414383677 384872 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have once seen a document that used the phrase "almost bigger than" to mean "greater than or equal to". < 1414384516 596967 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a native English speaker? < 1414384627 552259 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the document was probably written by Chinese people, since it was a document about use of Chinese typing on Linux, and it is a part of a book which also contains a lot of other documents relating to Linux. < 1414385222 10014 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1414385286 338001 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infocom somehow designed the Z-machine in such a way that a lot of optimizations and other tricks are possible that Infocom has probably never even considered by themself. < 1414385707 549795 :password2!~password@197.76.147.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414386271 437183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: heh what is the trick? < 1414386496 516999 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Scala community is kind of scary https://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1g50g5/announcing_lift_25/ < 1414386703 712406 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"create a new CSS output class for simulating microelectrical systems" WHY < 1414386711 427016 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fxos_on_RaspberryPi < 1414386812 552543 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am guessing that they might want to program the GPIO by the use of CSS for some strange reasons? < 1414386830 279858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't make much sense to me. < 1414386879 437902 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what comes of the web-everything world. :P < 1414386942 171988 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a lot of ways to program the GPIO in RaspberryPi, in most of the provided programming languages including shell scripts and Mathematica. < 1414387701 812787 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/henkma_1414152474&hs < 1414388549 541451 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414388752 961860 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1414389474 515364 :password2!~password@197.76.147.44 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414390482 152494 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaklmicehimkurbk PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: yeah, this sentence doesn't actually seem coherent to me: "DOM/CSS would enable programmers to develop robotics etc. by building a declarative model of a reactive system" < 1414390512 229889 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaklmicehimkurbk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seriously doubt the document object model is up to that taks < 1414390514 404932 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaklmicehimkurbk PRIVMSG #esoteric :task, even < 1414390518 111030 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't see how CSS can possibly help. < 1414390537 287896 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or how DOM can possibly help, either.) < 1414390800 248675 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to clothe the robot. < 1414391806 902488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see this "Tricky Document"? < 1414392436 820528 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I had already written "or perhaps minimized Underload" in my input line, but then thought it might just confuse matters. < 1414392542 888683 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD, GOOD < 1414392817 464025 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: crafty Haskell character-swapping trick is crafty. < 1414393107 600683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1414393203 681764 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/tails_1414358976&sed was also very clever. < 1414393327 692181 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works like http://sprunge.us/fCXR (where X denotes \x09 and spaces converted to _ for visibility); I just had something far more explicit about swapping two letters. < 1414393413 608593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: huh that looks like they're using sed as if it were thue < 1414393521 36998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue with backreferences would probably be a lot easier to write < 1414393530 208460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly more powerful in the computational class sense? < 1414393541 224023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually, I have a new definition, not sure what to call it yet < 1414393547 857931 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Swap+The+Characters/teebee_1413233661&sed was basically what I wrote, except I didn't know you can have an empty label name like that, and "t" will then jump to that instead of end-of-script. < 1414393560 341845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if a problem can be solved in language A in O(P) for any function P, it can also be solved in O(P) in language B" < 1414393636 988165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of similar to "this language has a nonzero eigeneratio", but between languages rather than within one < 1414393996 357447 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at BANCStar and BANCNova stuff, and believe it contains some mistakes. From the PDF as well as the code at http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html I can figure some things they didn't mention. I believe that instruction 8550 is a kind of computed GOTO to an absolute address. Instruction 8400 then seems to mean to store the address of the instruction after the next one into variables numbered 1908 and 1909. < 1414394006 248894 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There also seems to be several other built-in variables with special purposes. < 1414394318 574772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414394320 663999 :callforjudgement!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414394329 403183 :callforjudgement!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1414394329 556453 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414394356 707034 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think they are actually PC color codes and not ANSI color codes? < 1414394772 222692 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with bits 0 and 2 swapped? < 1414394774 514427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hum, empty label you say? < 1414394791 690859 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there also a third scheme also by the way? < 1414394901 768880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thanks for saving me 2 chars on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Asteriks+and+Obeliks+FIXED :P < 1414395056 700123 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly some of the date operations in BANCStar such as "Future date 360" might have something to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_count_convention < 1414395207 113031 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BANCStar14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40697&oldid=40658 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+332) 10 < 1414395243 773256 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: quite likely. I think the rules for paying social security here are a fixed sum for full month, or, for a partial month, 1/30 of that sum for each day. < 1414395502 921221 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's all kind of crazy rules and conventions that are not even properly documented, so only people working in the same area know about them (or even they don't) < 1414395548 780831 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414395551 351819 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414395590 805044 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also kind of looks like it may have been meant to be useful for coding manually, considering how powers of ten are commonly used in the instruction encodings, the text rather than binary format, and other things. < 1414395617 120487 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1414395627 103041 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironic < 1414395676 190718 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The screen generator might just have been something they added afterward, because they did not want to release it as it is. < 1414395713 350264 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I'm the kind of person who spends time automating lots of things that were supposed to be useful manually < 1414395747 88358 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it useful manually doesn't necessarily mean it won't be useful automatically, too. < 1414395757 340907 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1414395763 802790 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414395784 577175 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course that's the general direction computing stuff evolves in time < 1414395794 582553 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :people used to write lots of machine code or assembly manually < 1414395812 82176 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still do sometimes < 1414395821 877005 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, < 1414395827 54785 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as when writing program for Famicom < 1414395831 201394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still people automate it much more these days < 1414395843 313395 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with C compilers and even more complicated compilers < 1414395850 377140 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimizing ones < 1414395875 785496 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even optimizing ones sometimes omit some optimizations that can be done manually < 1414395891 601076 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1414395942 169164 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want to write a program to target a specific computer (or VM) then assembly language can be used; it is useful for such a situation. < 1414395960 744345 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general idea is that you write the source code in a sane way, then if the result doesn't have enough performance, you find the bottlenecks, and optimize those either at source level or replacing some of the parts with more nonportable stuff or straight assembly < 1414396008 494461 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even if I never write straight assembly, it's worth to understand how the computer works at low level to know how to write good programs in source form < 1414396025 543320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, different computers can work in different way. < 1414396046 574634 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that sometimes I think we're overdoing that, trying to teach too much of the low-level stuff to the young students and scaring them away < 1414396054 405615 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :[lymia@localhost ~/.steam/steam/SteamApps/common/Sid Meier's Civilization V]$ strings Civ5XP | grep XMLSerializer < 1414396054 559040 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ZN8Database13XMLSerializer14LoadFromMemoryEPKwPcj < 1414396054 559167 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ZN8Database13XMLSerializer17InsertOrIgnoreRowERNS_13FXmlTraverserERNS_12ResultsCacheEPKcj < 1414396056 903787 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone dun goofed. < 1414396057 869109 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should try to teach more of the high-level stuff first < 1414396069 341363 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least to our mathematicians < 1414396077 797697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm tired, and somehow thought you were teaching your students BANCstar < 1414396092 673080 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know entirely, but I think we can learn all of them. < 1414396097 981566 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... no < 1414396099 551576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: why is mangled function names coming up in strings surprising? < 1414396119 256866 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because this is full symbol information. < 1414396121 489878 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though if we got an interpreter for it, we could try :-) < 1414396172 344996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program can also be written targeting a VM, too; even I write programs for Famicom even though I do not actually have a Famicom. < 1414396196 74058 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Database::XMLSerializer::InsertOrIgnoreRow(Database::FXmlTraverser&, Database::ResultsCache&, char const*, unsigned int)" < AFAIK, this is not in any public .h file, even in the headers given for modders. < 1414396234 389927 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dynamicdispatch 5* 10New user account < 1414396559 824014 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell an OO esolang in the works < 1414396611 544284 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymia: Google finds it in https://github.com/Gedemon/Civ5-DLL/blob/master/CvGameDatabase/include/XmlSerializer.h but maybe that's just someone's reverse-engineering. < 1414396613 547917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or particularly creative spam < 1414396616 882543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both simultaneously < 1414396618 209763 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that. < 1414396667 826973 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/632/ < 1414396692 402344 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FGXModelComponentBuilder_Granny >::ExtendSurfaceFromModel(FGXModelComponentBuilder_Granny >::FGXModelMeshData&, unsigned int)" < 1414396694 701160 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or this for sure. < 1414396720 532591 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"_Granny"? < 1414396735 989288 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. < 1414396740 909439 :visy_!~visy@ec2-23-23-221-74.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :laff @ _Granny < 1414396742 470284 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just looked for a random renderer symbol < 1414396781 765347 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could be a "code name" for one of the leaderpeople or whatever Civ V has. < 1414396785 63197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I ship NH4 with debug symbols < 1414396786 771512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grandmother of all ModelComponentBuilders < 1414396790 452121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, it's hard to tell on Windows < 1414396834 525406 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :LeaderHead is what they call the civilization diplomacy screen, I know that. < 1414396903 655583 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :But _Granny i have no idea < 1414396942 520947 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, is there an old female leader-head? < 1414396953 491596 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's what they call some rendering SDK component? "Port/SDKs/Granny/source/granny_mesh.cpp" shows up in strings < 1414397017 348845 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "Granny Editor for Civ 5", so I guess it's something more general then. < 1414397020 867833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious name, though. < 1414397050 948453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gra" from "graphics", perhaps. < 1414397094 244994 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html oh < 1414397979 194154 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414398098 473243 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414398232 503223 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414398361 404289 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq_uptime < 1414398361 594358 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :5d 12m 42s < 1414398401 674959 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> <_< < 1414398406 284434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs more crashing < 1414398424 373746 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it ping timeouts < 1414398445 843243 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're welcome to try to crash it < 1414398453 23649 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you don't damage the underlying server < 1414398456 202066 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't be so nice < 1414398488 900916 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has forgotten how it was crashed last time, anyhow
< 1414398503 689561 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: by making it print "hi there\rQUIT :quit" < 1414398510 220510 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1414398516 206181 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remembered it was hilarious < 1414398518 316788 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :because lines was based on \r\n < 1414398526 354306 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't know IRC accepts \r as a newline < 1414398632 848970 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@82.144.205.57 NICK :yurichev < 1414398919 248306 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414398928 364558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414398942 548804 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://webpolicy.org/2014/10/24/how-verizons-advertising-header-works/ < 1414398953 125437 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414399092 661139 :heroux_!sandroco@50708355.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1414399098 560625 :heroux!sandroco@50708355.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1414399842 393157 :heroux!sandroco@50708355.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1414399853 411863 :heroux_!sandroco@50708355.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1414400851 723657 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1414401358 123893 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40698&oldid=40691 5* 03TomPN 5* (+165) 10/* Line functions */ < 1414401432 187542 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414402473 870563 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am having a sudden crisis of faith. < 1414402489 948843 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the imperfect first person of to be?# < 1414402534 652978 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414402622 576489 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was? < 1414402655 943900 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Imperfect meanings in English are expressed in different ways depending on whether the event is continuous or habitual. -- However certain verbs that express state rather than action do not mark the progressive aspect (see Uses of English verb forms: Progressive); in these cases the simple past tense is used instead: "He was hungry"; "We knew what to do next."" (Wikipedia) < 1414402673 885445 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, OK < 1414402682 372000 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My phone doesn't want to admit that is a word < 1414402696 330356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1414402700 561802 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nick ais523 < 1414402704 483479 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414402707 351349 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait < 1414402715 550823 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's set to italian for some reason < 1414402723 699730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: and because of that, "was being" is typically only used to construct passives < 1414402739 986954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's used for passives because it would be unused otherwise? < 1414402795 625055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I thought about "was" too much and now it lost all meaning. < 1414402814 493594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can probably revert that revert now that TomPN has edited without replying to the talk page message :p < 1414402838 783707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right, I'd prefer someone else to do it because appearances, though < 1414402839 915814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I forgot < 1414402847 949285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, well, see, you're involved and I'm not < 1414402854 13920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you do it :p < 1414402885 609720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but everything I've learned from Wikipedia says otherwise < 1414402913 709323 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit suspicious of that edit, since you still can't nest loops, and I'm not sure whether "the cell -- serves as a loop counter" means it's the (varying) value of the cell, or its initial value at the begin loop instruction. < 1414402928 211168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that edit was attempting to make it more TC? < 1414402931 883885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really read it <_< < 1414402957 674409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's capable of reading memory now < 1414402966 838462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if it's capable of /usefully/ reading memory < 1414402968 990545 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's edited? let me look < 1414402970 798601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but TCness is a very low bar < 1414402987 306178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, still always halts < 1414402990 704895 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCness isn't even the goal < 1414402996 120913 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not always < 1414402999 754413 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see what he changed < 1414403012 547488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: sure, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter is an interesting, intentionally-sub-TC language < 1414403064 75581 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, he's edited half an hour ago < 1414403076 719767 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can still hope he'll read my message and try to understadn it < 1414403084 897987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you send it to user talk? < 1414403100 392446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1414403150 434544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever since Wikipedia got rid of the Orange Bar of Doom, it's needed to use smaller wikis like Esolang to survive < 1414403164 757944 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If X is zero, the cell affected by the most recent increase, decrease or input command serves as a loop counter. When the loop counter reaches zero, the loop stops." wait, so he tries to make this something like the bf left bracket command? < 1414403189 474014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although they did make its replacement also orange, after a relatively large petition, i.e. 100+) < 1414403207 437342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a while loop, though < 1414403210 49582 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's like the left bracket now, except it may choose a cell different from the one under the finger < 1414403213 340693 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's a while loop < 1414403213 518975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a primitive recursive loop < 1414403218 484491 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it re-reads the counter < 1414403221 406070 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"reaches zero" < 1414403226 65065 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's trying to be like brainfuck < 1414403230 632339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to decrease explicitly < 1414403243 645511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, not automatically changing < 1414403251 424535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a counter that might not actually count < 1414403255 886366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like the instruction tape that holds data < 1414403256 478796 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit the description is still unclear < 1414403260 650020 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I might be misinterpreting it < 1414403262 963492 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a good start < 1414403316 557302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so now it's basically BF with max nesting depth 1 < 1414403321 19995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has definitely been posted before < 1414403329 786163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which I think is generally believed sub-TC (not proven, though) < 1414403356 183320 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, he still has loops not nestable < 1414403365 976071 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say wait a bit more, he may edit still < 1414403370 74855 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, my interpretation was that it automatically decrements by one, but you can also modify the value. < 1414403381 881262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was that it looks at the value at the start of the loop, and loops that many times < 1414403386 503448 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is worse than agora :-( < 1414403390 9013 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my second guess. < 1414403400 62275 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1414403430 563414 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'm uncertain on whether the cell it looks at (if it's not read only at start) changes if you do an "increase, decrease or input command" within the loop to some other cell. < 1414403457 311599 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think it changes, but I'm not sure < 1414403463 799173 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, whether you can write the equivalent of ,[>,] with it. < 1414403526 792346 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no nested loops still sucks < 1414403531 637907 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't easily make conditionals < 1414403565 442163 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be possible if the data tape overlaps with the counter part (tenor or note value) of the instructions, but I'm not sure that's enough < 1414403615 57632 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you figured out yet how the example program is supposed tow ork? < 1414403672 621582 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait, another change < 1414403677 368418 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the announcer bot? < 1414403685 782092 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, not another < 1414403687 641148 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the same change < 1414403690 93026 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, false alarm < 1414403691 67772 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's supposed to have E instead of C in the example program. < 1414403730 374786 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, "+++++ +++++++ ." is a brainfuck program that "adds 5 and 7 together". < 1414403740 902966 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1414403747 61637 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's possible < 1414403834 831869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you can only read a finite number of cells ever < 1414403839 389449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty limited < 1414403851 942502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, isn't that already the case with one-loop BF? < 1414403856 795213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an entropy rule < 1414403866 284132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each loop, either it's balanced and thus is an FSM < 1414403891 110945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it's unbalanced, and thus runs off the end of the area of the tape that's been previously touched (or else provably enters an infinite loop) < 1414403896 208034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, one-loop BF is sub-TC < 1414403902 262328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, one-nest < 1414403913 565309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't surprise me if two-nest were TC, though, especially with bignums < 1414403997 84485 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why can't it do useful stuff if it's unbalanced? < 1414404010 15171 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1414404014 333374 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :each iteration can still share some cells with the previous iteration < 1414404036 734883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if it's one-nest, basically because it can only read each cell once, and that just gives a continue/don't continue indication < 1414404051 343687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in particular, eventually it'll end up beyond the initialized area < 1414404061 125750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, only a finite number of cells can have changed before the loop starts < 1414404064 155721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually, you get pat them < 1414404070 321783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you're limited to infinite loop or exiting the loop < 1414404076 221343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and either is irreversible < 1414404093 298109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, any one-nest BF program can be proved either to halt, or to not halt < 1414404099 628771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, one-nest BF is sub-TC < 1414404148 431156 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1414404175 725987 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're saying that the value of the new cells can't depend on the value of the cells inherited from previous iterations? < 1414404255 729955 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that sounds right < 1414404301 388433 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it could still be interesting if there's an input statement in the loop and it could run some interesting finite state manchine on the input < 1414404396 786647 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit curious about the reasons for forbidding the nesting of loops in this one. < 1414404413 304116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementation difficulty? < 1414404534 832910 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it should allow nesting, but only loops of shorter note values can occurr inside a loop? < 1414404589 710721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, real music allows nested loops < 1414404597 65603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because it has a goto < 1414404601 206932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a one-shot goto < 1414404609 620357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like DO COME FROM (4) ONCE in INTERCAL < 1414404683 621105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are real music loops bounded? < 1414404720 842729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very rare for them to repeat more than twice (even rarer to repeat /less/ than twice…) < 1414404736 144664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there is syntax for it, it's typically only used in highly repetitive songs < 1414404799 691802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit that I've never played an infinitely long song < 1414404804 503138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know if there's syntax for that < 1414405038 814016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm quite sure there are types of musics where three encores is normal, < 1414405054 195412 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't ask for infinitely long, only potentially unbounded length, < 1414405085 847279 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reminds one immediately of the well-known http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/arvindn/misc/knuth_song_complexity.pdf < 1414405100 56527 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, exactly (and I think there's a sequel) < 1414405109 106284 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall so too. < 1414405255 169071 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :encores can be conditional loops, right? < 1414405259 265040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, most songs are also deterministic < 1414405263 910436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :encores tend not to be notated < 1414405267 956015 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might be bounded though < 1414405268 745136 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1414405286 774533 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when they are, they aren't really encores, they're just called that < 1414405415 3040 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414405465 123821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've seen that paper before, but I'm reading it anyway < 1414405505 391254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, what's more surprising is that he actually got it published in a well-known journal < 1414405515 67567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be interesting to see the peer reviews < 1414405570 339972 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it does say "special section". it might not be a peer-reviewed article. < 1414405581 317854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1414405595 93969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "we normally wouldn't publish this, but you can't exactly say no to Knuth" section? < 1414405688 308482 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I think more like "any letters at the journal editor's whim, as long as it's less than 20% of the size of the printed journal, and the authors can't count it as an article for grant or cv purposes" < 1414405700 138920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1414405754 593449 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complexity_of_Songs says < 1414405859 852853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it calls it a journal article, without qualification < 1414405983 916790 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess to know for sure you'd have to get the journal, but I don't much care < 1414405984 790410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1414405996 301675 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opening the Table of Contents for the journal issue in question crashes my Chrome. < 1414406006 545207 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "előnyom" is a real word? it looks riddiculous. some mathematicians invent the craziest words. < 1414406081 702231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks a little more sensible if you assume it's Hungarian < 1414406085 72901 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1414406090 353264 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is definitely Hungarian < 1414406098 338842 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in a Hungarian sentence < 1414406144 460348 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A GL(n) Hecke-Maass-csúcsformákra vonatkozó sup-norma szubkonvexitási probléma az előnyom-formula és egy jól megválasztott amplifikáció után egy egyszerűen megfogalmazható és önmagában is érdekes mátrix-leszámolási problémára vezet: arra, hogy egy szép (prímekkel paraméterezett) számelméleti tulajdonsággal bíró egész mátrixból nincs túl sok." -- totally something only a mathematician would write, and even they would wr < 1414406157 579880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were cut off; "even they would wr" < 1414406166 140274 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even they would write it only in an abstract < 1414406177 813555 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other CACM "special section" work seems rather serious, at least. < 1414406228 251577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20010317221900/http://web14.compaq.com/falco/detail.asp?FAQnum=FAQ2859 < 1414406246 927704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that snapshot dates from 2001; apparently the page dates from 1999 < 1414406249 848394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is worryingly recent < 1414406260 574783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, alternatively, worryingly far back, depending on your point of view < 1414406364 608688 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Communications magazine consists primarily of six main editorial sections: News, Viewpoints, Practice, Review Articles, Contributed Articles, and Research Highlights. -- the selection criteria and editorial process for articles varies by section --" < 1414406478 578649 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only some of the sections involve peer review, so there's quite a lot of non-peer-reviewed material in Communications. < 1414406526 795214 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also there's nowadays a "Last Byte" section that "consists of lighter-fare content that will appear as both regularly appearing columns, such as Q&As, futurist articles dealing with computing, and mathematical puzzles for those who like a good challenge", that's probably the sort of section the song paper was in. < 1414406667 399240 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should use ".bf" as a filename extension for both brainfuck and befunge < 1414406719 766628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I normally use .pro for Prolog, but I used .pl for violin < 1414406727 139305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because extension clashes seemed appropriate < 1414406765 635407 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking I should just use ".pm" for perl, but never got into the habit < 1414406773 644578 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, ".pm" for perl programs too < 1414406906 602545 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's violin? < 1414406971 41136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse assignment calculator for INTERCAL < 1414406982 977876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also known as the only program that can successfully figure out what an INTERCAL calculate statement does < 1414406986 807557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the corner cases < 1414407002 921467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although if the case has enough corners, it runs out of memory or just sits there for longer than you're prepared to wait) < 1414407019 373318 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1414407038 321918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a better description in the docs < 1414407044 357330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are on usenet, in a sharball < 1414407049 715548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for old time's sake < 1414407857 64008 :scounder!~scounder@phroa.lost.the.game.rikairchy.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1414408194 37119 :impomatic_!~chatzilla@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net NICK :impomatic < 1414409077 575605 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: PHASING CHICKEN < 1414409082 412933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good place to talk about chown(2) giveaway? < 1414409101 771410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular, is here appropriate? it's on-common-topic-spectrum, but I'm not sure if anyone cares) < 1414409215 430965 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um... dunno, maybe a channel for the operating system where you want to do that < 1414409244 279441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the basic concepts transcend OS < 1414409253 891287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, there's a time where I would have needed to do that at work < 1414409268 291661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to go an entire year via recycling existing files that already had the right permissions, but it was crzy < 1414409270 107878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*crazy < 1414409279 230505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, it's considered a security loophole, and I understand some of the reasons why < 1414409292 132682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall some talk about that being a quota-evasion trick somewhere. < 1414409301 526384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was wondering, if you could only chown() away files that you'd have write access to after the chown, would it be exploitable? < 1414409310 488808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, quota, interesting < 1414409337 481802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of the exploit where you screw around with symlinks so that a path is insecure, but chown them to the person you're attacking just before they check < 1414409351 569181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm saying OS channel because even though just plain chown giveaway might not be possible, there might be some OS-dependent (or even dependent on stuff more detailed than the OS) stuff that could help you in what you want < 1414409354 936742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that software they run thinks it's set up intentionally < 1414409377 50490 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"System III and System V allow a user to give away files; that is, the owner of a file may change its user ID to anything. This is a serious problem for implementations that are intended to meet government security regulations. Version 7 and 4.3 BSD permit only the superuser to change the user ID of a file. Some government agencies (usually not ones concerned directly with security) find this ... < 1414409383 60884 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... limitation too confining. This volume of POSIX.1-2008 uses may to permit secure implementations while not disallowing System V." < 1414409403 786804 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "some government agencies" part sounds like a dig. < 1414409483 90939 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want to chown large files (or something else that's not so easy to just recreate as a copy by the dest user), could you try to use a demon running as root that you can ask to chown giveaway files only in some particular directory? < 1414409497 789151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be nice if someone documented what the security implications actually /were/ < 1414409507 509644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find anything in a search, but then I websearch so rarely I'm pretty bad at it < 1414409516 911606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wasn't a sysadmin, in this case < 1414409518 855599 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I haven't really met this problem, I usually just copied files so the copy is created by the destination user < 1414409529 438104 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but ask a sysadmin < 1414409530 481361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, all I needed for this was setgid giveaway < 1414409538 999213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I could have asked for a setgid directory to create files in < 1414409574 8368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the specific problem: I need to create files that I can edit and that the web server can read, but shouldn't have permissions to read everything that the web server can) < 1414409629 559546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like a problem that's solvable by adding an additional group, and making both you and the web server have that as one of the supplementary groups. < 1414409639 949892 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: could you just create a separate group used only for this task and have both you and the webserver be in that group? < 1414409675 906749 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: alternately, add a demon for the web server that you can ask to create those files; or add a demon for your username that the webserver user can run and read your files to copy them < 1414409681 634875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: b_jonas: basically I'm looking for a situation that doesn't require changing /etc/passwd or /etc/group, which are presumably working up to this point < 1414409685 948912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or /etc/init.d < 1414409716 417761 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :We solve this by running multiple web servers. < 1414409719 733953 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, I think you need to change _something_ to allow this. it could be sudoers or something. < 1414409734 176214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right < 1414409763 208539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a rule of "you can chown/chgrp giveaway files as long as you would maintain write access to them afterwards", all the exploits I can think of fail, yet I could give the webserver its files just fine < 1414409788 728313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, the reasoning is that any checks that would be fooled by apparently owning the file, won't be fooled if someone else can write it) < 1414409795 824049 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that still probably allows quota exploits at least, mind you, just linking other users' files also does that < 1414409810 400291 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it has other problem stoo < 1414409811 626061 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think < 1414409826 395142 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Alternatively, POSIX ACLs. < 1414409836 204166 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"setfacl -m u:webserveruser:r your.file" or some such. < 1414409841 565200 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesn't that have the problem that you can accidentally create files you can't delete? < 1414409845 974669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the Agora point of view, chown giveaway's exploitable because you could use it to push someone else overquota < 1414409861 19117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I did that a couple of days ago, on Windows < 1414409870 889513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows ACLs are a mess in all sorts of ways < 1414409877 869956 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you mentioned that < 1414409886 233233 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is already perfectly happy to do that on your behalf < 1414409901 854411 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, can I assume that you can't give away files with the setuid or setgid bit set, right? < 1414409907 611477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I didn't mention it here < 1414409919 741777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's normally assumed that giving away a file clears the sgid/suid bits < 1414409924 77363 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1414409926 50556 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think < 1414409931 753303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, here's the thing that really confused me < 1414409938 801975 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giving an additional user ACL read permissions won't affect ownership, so is generally allowed. < 1414409939 894459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a perfectly normal .png file < 1414409946 144815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on BSD, you wouldn't need a setgid directory < 1414409949 553557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all directories are setgid) < 1414409949 706862 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: would this apply only to regular files? < 1414409958 781826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with read permission to the file, my program couldn't read it, nor could Windows' image viewer thing < 1414409964 705723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with read+execute permission, now it reads fine < 1414409974 749179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure enough, almost all files have read+execute in default permissions < 1414409987 588674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what I don't get is, why is the execute permission required for reading? < 1414409990 929949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on what file system? < 1414410003 953348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever ships with windows 8.1, presumably ntfs < 1414410009 32887 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ntfs < 1414410009 764558 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1414410029 910142 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you didn't change the perm of the directory, right? < 1414410042 238270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows has execute permissions? < 1414410044 581638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :directory perms were default for ProgramData < 1414410049 192461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it has like 17 permissions for each file < 1414410062 586480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many of which seem to be misnamed or mislabeled < 1414410071 156286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you set them via a sort-of bitfield that makes no sense < 1414410108 553849 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think I used ACLs for something involving a somewhat similar web server thing. I think it was a directory I wanted to let the web server write to, without making it globally writable, and we didn't share any groups. < 1414410188 537770 :scounder!~scounder@phroa.lost.the.game.rikairchy.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414410191 340232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, there it is; the "queue" directory has an extra u:apache:rwx entry. < 1414410222 952778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :groups are a little sad. < 1414410258 261615 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls shows "non-standard" ACLs as a '+' after the regular ?rwxrwxrwx permissions line. < 1414410365 170609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find POSIX permissions are normally flexible enough to handle any setup you want, in an esolangy sort of way < 1414410376 622183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there's some sequence of actions you can do, but it's often convoluted and makes no sense < 1414410412 452307 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACL's are arguably part of "POSIX permissions", since they're in POSIX and they're about permissions. < 1414410444 710663 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, that's true for some other parts of unix too < 1414410452 385249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Windows < 1414410478 984185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the Cygwin people have a long article about mapping POSIX octal permissions to Windows permissions < 1414410493 131597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in particular, how they handle the case of u-w,g+w < 1414410508 521344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which apparently can be represented with Windows ACLs, but breaks if the GUI tools are allowed to even look at them < 1414410530 796986 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, terminals and job control has rules that try to magically do the correct thing in various strange cases too, but they're hard to understand, as a result people don't understand it and don't know how they should write their programs such that they Just Work without having to do anything special. < 1414410575 29797 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1414410730 976289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :job control normally does Just Work, though < 1414410744 833485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except when you do something silly like install handlerse for /all/ signals < 1414410754 745423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for whitelisted ones < 1414410807 750446 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, or when they cargo cult random sequence of syscalls into a perl script to "demonize" the program, and keep the terminal open < 1414410842 181752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you missed an 'a' there, but it's funnier that way < 1414410862 839281 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I don't care about "demon" vs "daemon" < 1414410926 191737 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I remember someone caught a nasty bug some months ago when some early process at starting X called sigprocmask with memory junk (looked like a pointer) in the signal set and forgot to change it back before forking all the application programs, < 1414410930 983450 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which then caused random bugs in all programs < 1414410956 270851 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix's "most process state is inherited" can be nasty when there's a bug like that < 1414410999 290848 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-006-014-114.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Given the original desired setup I thought it surely can be done with selinux.) < 1414411473 19228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: u-w,g+w seems kind of incoherent to me < 1414411494 437017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, it's bizarre < 1414411504 275021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently the cygwin people cared enough about compatibility that they wanted to make it work < 1414411526 279570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though probably nobody has found an actual application for it ever < 1414411530 486649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there ever a good reason to not enforce owner < group < world? < 1414411542 713676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, is there a reasonable use-case for permissions that violate that? < 1414411550 210990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you had a "banned users" group < 1414411574 866834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, here we go: https://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/ntsec.html < 1414411602 133428 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :u-w,g+w: when you don't trust yourself, but want other people to be able to edit the file. < 1414411739 262608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin's example is rw-r-xrw- < 1414411745 103052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty crazy as perms go < 1414411840 843184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, their implementation of setuid(2) is even crazier < 1414411887 210286 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for obfu purposes, I guess such things could occurr if you store status in perm bits, and your programs check them implicitly when some operation files with EACCESS < 1414411911 597327 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have per-user groups on these computers; my primary group is 70000 "Domain Users". < 1414411918 807960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you reach the point of "requires permissions that SYSTEM doesn't have" you know you're in trouble < 1414411955 966403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows' high-level permissions are such a mess < 1414411969 152224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when you start seeing TrustedInstaller with lower perms than, say, Administrator < 1414411987 809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the civil service place I was in, I used to have to start Photoshop (or some other Adobe tool) as a special "service pack 4 updater" user in order to be able to print, otherwise there was some permissions problem in bringing up the print dialog. < 1414411999 753670 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only applied to some particular pieces of software. < 1414412006 980605 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how they had managed to configure that. < 1414412143 794522 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ouch < 1414412262 360531 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dug out the password for that account -- which was something like "oh crap" in Finnish -- from the login scripts, which used some Windows "su" tool to execute a few set-up-registry-items commands under that account. < 1414412266 910380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a bit of a mess. < 1414412426 264332 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It wasn't "runas", it was something you could provide the password on the command line.) < 1414412488 159599 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414412589 683227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1414413804 578558 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1414414833 955783 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1414415726 562925 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414415835 560440 :Slereah!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414415923 463790 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You're not supposed to look at windows login scripts < 1414415933 377870 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :they contain sensitive informations users aren't supposed to see < 1414415951 583854 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaklmicehimkurbk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1414416773 73980 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1414416858 258740 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seemed easier than trying to deal with the bureaucracy. < 1414416886 952075 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's hard to not notice command prompt windows that flash briefly on every login, and print messages about su and regedit and such. < 1414418668 979351 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1414419200 184850 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414419212 371071 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414419256 815632 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414419832 44881 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@199.167.25.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414419859 629402 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@199.167.25.114 NICK :Guest63006 < 1414419896 226563 :Guest63006!~sprocklem@199.167.25.114 QUIT :Client Quit < 1414419907 887797 :Sprocklem_!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1414419930 476897 :Sprocklem_!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem NICK :Sprocklem < 1414420151 622288 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414421542 491217 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414421548 82565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414421551 170833 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414421886 478458 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414421894 262960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1414421895 796010 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414422060 481089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414422068 51223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414423766 123152 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1414423941 698252 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1414424069 949849 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1414425337 231618 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1414425785 456374 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1414425931 59726 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414426138 285452 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414426138 856798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414426194 316548 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414427686 453867 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414427686 665144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414427715 787725 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tnsopuhxebyyebbl JOIN :#esoteric < 1414428051 252498 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1414428838 794761 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... am not the best at translating Haskell -> Racket < 1414429136 179622 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What ought to be a prime sieve seems to be the identity function < 1414429235 834073 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an inclusive prime sieve that doesn't want to hurt any number's feelings, no matter how composite they might be. < 1414429275 370158 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1414429313 190507 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me guess, it returns every number that is divisible by 1 and itself? < 1414429376 790512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maths made difficult" defines primes as integers with exactly four integral factors < 1414429390 390933 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1, -1, x, and -x? < 1414429400 807170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yep < 1414429417 59030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this neatly excludes 1 and -1 because they only have two integral factors each < 1414429447 464919 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about -2? < 1414429534 23996 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any with 3? < 1414429584 341388 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_, I don't think so < 1414429610 309919 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan I can't answer your question. But perhaps you'll enjoy the 4 different 85 character versions in http://sprunge.us/QHXf?hs < 1414429610 463529 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1414429620 806722 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_, I don't think there are any with an odd number < 1414429630 74920 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because if x|y, -x|y) < 1414429674 657407 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about zeroooo < 1414429685 809192 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has aleph naught divisors! < 1414429766 188875 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aleph naught is even. < 1414429789 852291 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you define "even"? < 1414429843 454325 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is in bijection with N + N (disjoint union), but also in bijection with N + N + {1}, so one could say that its cardinality is both odd and even. < 1414429907 10418 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer to restrict the notion to integers. < 1414429981 191010 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even numbers = {x \elem integers, 2|x} < 1414430004 460471 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which logic, I suppose aleph naught is not even < 1414430023 331275 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I need to get me a copy of that book < 1414430033 283563 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In general, to rings with a surjective homomorphism to Z/2Z.) < 1414430053 405830 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus points if that homomorphism is unique. < 1414430074 594394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414430088 570338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414430191 779318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414430199 60244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414430793 377388 :Wooble!~user@unaffiliated/wooble JOIN :#esoteric < 1414431142 203392 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: BBL < 1414432043 724163 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40699&oldid=40660 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+64) 10Link to bins zip < 1414433199 321956 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1414433409 625048 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414435167 464542 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1414435654 327038 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1414436900 949962 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Core War tournament this week if anyone fancies a go :-) corewar.co.uk/halloween2014.htm < 1414437003 584052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I had an interesting core war idea a while ago < 1414437009 813920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now I can't remember what it was < 1414437023 792095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with multiple threads that repaired each other and just tried to survive < 1414437037 582101 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a self-repairing warrior. :-) < 1414437122 832904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1414437130 307520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most/all of the obvious ideas will have been tried by now < 1414437140 368232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no, I remember what it was < 1414437144 428490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a paper-like program < 1414437156 189151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only it intentionally forkbombs itself in order to prevent the opponent using anti-paper tactics < 1414437156 875372 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I will close by suggesting that the winner of next year's tournament will be a self-repairing program." - A. K. DEWDNEY, The Core War Newsletter (March 1987) < 1414437160 244404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hundreds of threads on each copy < 1414437177 246168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably wouldn't work, though < 1414437228 665122 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worth trying. < 1414437254 540678 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not everything has been discovered. There are new ideas being tried out all the time. < 1414437273 122637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like in BF Joust, I guess < 1414437292 212433 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are combinations of known strategies which haven't been tried, but might work really well together. < 1414437412 322000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I noticed is that many of my best BF Joust programs recently work by deceiving the opponent as to their strategy < 1414437429 524225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omnipotence, for instance, is a defence program disguised as a fast rush against most opponents (and an actual fast rush against pokes) < 1414437757 946459 :Slereah_!~jackal@176.222.51.233 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414437797 537266 :MoALTz!~no@user-188-33-28-155.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1414438330 792372 :impomatic_!~digital_w@92.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also been trying to track down a couple of historic robot programming games. Robot Arena for the Research Machines 380Z and Robot for the SOL-20 < 1414438692 528948 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat114.it.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1414438995 542621 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tnsopuhxebyyebbl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1414439024 507783 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. http://soft-dev.org/pubs/html/diekmann_tratt__eco_a_language_composition_editor/ < 1414439097 139553 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nawlgxmbpewcfbyf JOIN :#esoteric < 1414439884 374454 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a prime example of paying attention to the important part, I'm annoyed because all the "ff"s, "ffi"s and "fi"s of that document have been turned into ligatures, and render in a much darker type than the rest of the body text. < 1414439914 854911 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sufficient" and so on. < 1414439938 119255 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not sure why it renders badly.) < 1414439956 712913 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficient? < 1414439963 481837 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, nvm < 1414439989 483368 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat114.it.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1414440324 733344 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :2600 uses ligatures even in fixpitch text and I want to send a postcard to them to tell them not to do that please. < 1414440412 982486 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1414440643 144366 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat114.it.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1414441096 900492 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@86.89.119.147 PART :#esoteric < 1414441668 887380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414441683 81999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414442541 872526 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1414442983 123611 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat114.it.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1414443526 147900 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@80.229.49.98 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414443533 408146 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@80.229.49.98 QUIT :Changing host < 1414443533 561667 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1414443698 994111 :MoALTz!~no@user-188-33-28-155.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1414443702 689876 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the largest brainfuck program people know? < 1414443756 832740 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: dunno, but it's easy to create large ones < 1414443774 783517 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by padding small ones < 1414443904 370037 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, that's kind of cheating < 1414443912 867301 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the problem is ill specified < 1414444044 996967 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lost Kingdom, perhaps? < 1414444055 481236 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-26-148.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1414444140 213696 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lost Kingdom would've been my guess too. < 1414444144 243413 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you disallow programs that were compiled from a more highlevel language? < 1414444315 755349 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :awib's relatively long, as far as handwritten programs go. It's not *giant*, though. < 1414444342 558547 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it does use a "preprocessor", but that preprocessor pretty much just removes comments and implements an "include" mechanism for splitting to multiple files. < 1414444538 310588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :How coincidental, looks like an awib 0.4 just came out in like two weeks ago. < 1414444543 480536 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to implement Diehard tests into Z-machine codes. < 1414444693 723026 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Information I have found in Wikipedia and that stuff doesn't seem to mention implementation details? < 1414444710 39939 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe. "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck." < 1414444799 906312 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw a design thing once that implied exactly that for real trucks < 1414444876 493880 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1414445025 193064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1414445043 985736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414445618 93111 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1414445822 274904 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1414447510 619688 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1414447654 978366 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1414447672 979142 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1414448222 245268 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-26-148.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1414448259 998046 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1414448662 272419 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it dangerous if everyone stands on one side of an airplane? < 1414448666 523974 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried googling to no avail < 1414448702 771780 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1414448744 289741 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not helpful. "To ensure the aircraft is safe to fly, the center of gravity must fall within specified limits established by the aircraft manufacturer." < 1414448922 611883 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everyone stands at the front, probably < 1414448925 564366 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :side, not sure < 1414448944 574814 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of chartered flight to see a solar eclipse, not sure how safe that would be < 1414448954 578076 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume everyone would be standing on a side to see it < 1414449077 295546 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see people all stacked in an airplane's side. a feat to behold! < 1414449137 655100 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bluh, is it even possible to write an identity /function/ in Scala? [Different from an identity /method/] < 1414449177 262277 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is Scala like Java, where everything is a method? < 1414449234 548430 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scala has first class functions. However, Scala functions seem limited relative to Scala methods < 1414449254 88591 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methods can have any number of parameter lists, functions have one (or more? but not 0. At least according to some article) < 1414449261 398234 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions can't accept implicit arguments < 1414449262 933052 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. etc. < 1414449271 675774 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is confused. “functions are first class, but they aren't...”
< 1414449297 555331 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't pass around methods, but you can pass around functions. < 1414449505 43888 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of this because of the desire for easy Java interop? < 1414449559 588854 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1414449615 257804 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://avherald.com/h?article=43015f1b ... very small plane though < 1414449615 454362 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1414449615 454518 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 5h 33m 24s ago: I can't answer your question. But perhaps you'll enjoy the 4 different 85 character versions in http://sprunge.us/QHXf?hs < 1414449702 440261 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a solar eclipse plane would be that large, owuld it? < 1414449718 793010 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I came via https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2507/can-passenger-movement-in-an-airliner-make-it-stall < 1414449725 607179 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1414449745 510442 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I'm reading, larger planes can actually compensate for this, for example by redistributing fuel. < 1414449831 345798 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1414449850 825072 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i got an 81 solution that resembles your last ones but i didn't bother to submit it m@main=getLine>>=putStrLn.foldl1(flip$map.g).words>>m;g[e,f]c|e==c=f|f==c=e|1>0=c < 1414449855 627493 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if this is a larger plane or a smaller plane < 1414449892 215535 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously takeoff and landing are more critical than normal flight. < 1414449920 414130 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THat makes me feel better < 1414449943 839059 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah. < 1414449975 174661 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I recall thinking about using 'cycle' much earlier but didn't get it to work. < 1414449998 758230 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so you and henkma apparently thought of it independently :) < 1414450040 1716 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it was only a small step from there to the cheating solution. < 1414450120 999054 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's funny though. I never thought adding a 'flip' could be worthwhile. < 1414450150 175454 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wavered back and forth several times on whether to fold over entire words or single characters, essentially < 1414450228 919531 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I didn't try that; using foldl1 was just too attractive. < 1414450261 392763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1414450430 643505 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe "folding over single characters" isn't the right term, i mean that foldl1(flip$map.g) thing as opposed to foldl1(#) with # handling an entire word with a list comprehension or the like < 1414450499 194117 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually the 'cycle' idea resulted from thinking about piecing together [d] and filter (/=d) b parts so that the right elements would line up. doing it with ++ was too long, but a regular pattern could work... < 1414450549 84270 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh. well, you can see from my 9th solution that I didn't think it benefitial to inline the (?) then. < 1414450550 101275 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although my _very_ first version actually did fold over single characters entirely, it was m@main=getLine>>=a.words>>m;a(t:s)=putStrLn[foldl(#)c s|c<-t];c#l|[e]<-filter(/=c)l=e|1>0=c < 1414450628 694621 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one of the things i've learned while golfing is that it can depend a lot on circumstances whether it pays to inline a function or not, as long as it has only one equation. < 1414450640 340474 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so you were using filter from the beginning, essentially ... I took a while to find it. < 1414450649 549208 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1414450694 275391 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was something i _removed_ for my own shortest version. < 1414450703 744545 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :back and forth :) < 1414450711 861242 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: to repeat myself, I never thought that adding 'flip' could pay off. < 1414451081 212403 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember comparing things like (flip$map.(#)) vs. (?);x?y=map(y#)x and (\x y->map(y#)x) < 1414451164 685535 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter two are equally good < 1414451181 381262 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuition is such an unreliable beast < 1414451219 637398 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a function instead of f loses by 1 character, the kind of thing that depends a lot on spacing possibilities < 1414451225 585774 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*instead of ? < 1414453689 367451 :boily!~boily@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: GUGUGUGUGUGUGUGU CHICKEN