00:03:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:06:02 I looked at universal coding on Wikipedia. I guess that Elias gamma is best for small numbers, Fibonacci for medium size numbers, and Elias delta for large numbers? Is that it? (So, it would depend on how large the numbers tend to be that you are trying to encode, which one to use?) 00:08:33 Elias Gamma would be a good name for a mad scientist 00:08:50 You think so? OK 00:10:02 of the "not evil, but dangerously absent-minded" kind 00:11:04 OK 00:11:22 That's what I thought it might mean 00:12:37 he could have an evil twin brother with a more ominous first name, though. 00:12:50 Ah, OK it can do that too 00:14:02 oerjan: Ray Gamma 00:15:50 oerjan: hmm, Saile Gamma doesn't sound terribly evil 00:16:15 quintopia: Yes that one is good job, I think. 00:16:24 FireFly: Assaile 00:18:11 quintopia: just as long as it's short for Rayburn http://www.babynamespedia.com/start/m/ray 00:19:03 although Raydon was also tempting 00:19:08 zzo38: I can't see any difference in the long term behavior of delta vs. fibonacci. do you know how it behaves at, say 100,000,000? 00:20:06 quintopia: I just saw a graph on Wikipedia that tell you how many bits are needed. 00:22:32 Of course it is only used when small numbers are more likely than large numbers (or if you want small numbers to be encoded smaller for other reasons, such as convenience or RLE), but I would think that which one you use would depend on how large the large numbers will tend to become. 00:23:22 Does anyone know any resources for learning Smalltalk? 00:25:55 pretty sure that language literally exists <-- i vaguely recall there's a meta-brainfuck of similar kind, too 00:26:11 Taneb: alas, the only way is to go out and meet people. 00:26:20 oerjan, :P 00:26:25 Taneb: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak 00:27:00 quintopia, thanks 00:27:14 Taneb: especially this: http://daitanmarks.sourceforge.net/or/squeak/squeak_tutorial.html 00:28:00 Although going out and meeting people is probably a good idea when I am asking #esoteric for resources to learn a language that is past its heyday just so I can learn what the hang object-oriented programming is about 00:29:00 * oerjan is reminded of the Simula textbook that was on a shelf in the math department's student computer room 00:29:14 "Simula Begin", i think was its name 00:29:32 and that may literally have been my first introduction to OO 00:31:18 the computer department still used Pascal for its first semester course then 00:31:36 Like, I'm aware of the concept, but really to me there's this big shiny light somewhere in the distance that some people keep going on about as though it were God's gift to programmers 00:31:50 Called Object-Oriented Programming 00:31:57 And I have no idea what the big deal is 00:32:30 Taneb: well it was a huge leap forward over procedure-oriented programming which used to be the reigning paradigm (see: Pascal) 00:33:03 I have no idea what the big idea is because I have no idea what the idea is at all 00:33:13 however it's not so clear that it's a leap forward over functional programming, which however "only" lispers new about back then 00:33:40 (ml and haskell existed, but i hadn't heard of them) 00:37:00 Taneb: the basic idea is to have "objects" which tie together a data structure and the code acting on it, allowing an entirely new kind of modularity. (There's also inheritance, but everyone seems to think that's evil these days.) 00:37:46 (disclaimer: i haven't really looked much at recent developments in OO after i went functional) 00:39:54 OO allows mutation to be more "local", which is an improvement even if it doesn't go as far as pure functionality 00:40:45 -!- boily has joined. 00:40:49 hoily 00:42:15 hellørjan! 00:43:28 "Visual Studio support channel"? (yes, i _do_ see JazzyFella i the logs) 00:43:50 something special about VS? 00:44:08 boily: he tried to treat this channel as general tech support 00:44:33 ... 00:44:43 ...??? ŏ_Ô? 00:44:48 smells trolly to me, but i haven't got to the end yet 00:45:17 * boily oils his mapole and sharpens it 00:45:31 i think he left hth 00:45:52 * oerjan sneakily steals back his swatter and hides it 00:46:26 helloily 00:46:31 quinthellopia! 00:47:11 There is also object oriented programming with COM/XPCOM interfaces (with IUnknown and QueryInterface and those things), and there is also prototype-based like JavaScript has. 00:48:12 boily: you have wonderful timing. i'm leaving for the airport in 7 hours to fly to mexico, so even though it's a saturday night, i'm headed to bed 00:49:00 once again, timing is everything... 00:49:08 where are you going to be mexicaning into? 00:49:36 It's this one line of code that's fudged up.. <-- if this was genuine, i have a hunch it wasn't really about VS at all, except afa my haskell questions would be about vim... 00:51:59 playa del carmen area 00:52:02 some resort 00:52:19 ciudad juárez *ducks for bullets* 00:52:26 ooooh! nice place! 00:52:37 anyway, catch ya back here in a week or so, unless i hop online from the hotel lobby and spot you 00:52:44 the family and I went there in... eh... about 2006 or so, I think? 00:53:01 bonnes vacances! enjoy the sun and the food! 00:53:08 but why would i chat on irc when there is so much mexico outside 00:53:17 be sure to visit Tulum! 00:53:22 (and bring a swimsuit.) 00:53:26 don't forget the liquor and swimming holes 00:53:49 i will see chicken pizza 00:53:54 and cobol 00:53:57 Tequila, rhum, the cenotes― wait? 00:54:08 wait what? 00:54:17 chicken pizza and cobol??? 00:54:18 Hi 00:54:22 Dulnellos! 00:54:44 Wha? 00:54:51 -!- tromp has joined. 00:54:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coba 00:54:55 trellomp! 00:55:04 oh. chicken pizza. I see. 00:55:05 quintopia: thanks, i didn't get the Cobol 00:55:09 Lots of l's 00:55:28 nainai 00:55:33 * oerjan stealthily add an s after http 00:55:45 :T 00:55:57 also after add, come to think of it 00:56:19 Dulnes: would you have prefered Dullones? I'm very flexible when it comes to welcomes. 00:56:31 Dull ones 00:56:54 hm. no good. Dulnellos it is, then. 00:57:08 My username is just a mispelt version Dullness 00:57:22 wellomecs 00:57:35 "...." 00:58:14 Visual studio support channel still hasnt been changed? 00:58:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: Visual Studio euthanasia channel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 00:59:11 Windows 93 support desk would be a nice topic 00:59:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:01:36 Desk/channel 01:01:36 boily: i prefer Dulnes but you go with that for now. 01:05:40 which is a simple geometric and beautiful typeface for large text? <-- times roman hth 01:05:50 especially good for large stone inscriptions 01:06:20 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 01:06:33 Raavi is nice tbh 01:07:15 Times Roman is very 01:07:31 Itchy on the eyes is how i would put it 01:09:35 Apparently Smalltalk uses only 2-3 concept. 01:09:47 Amazing how they managed to use only -1 concept! 01:10:30 -1-concepts sound reasonable 01:10:37 http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/negative%20thinking 01:10:50 shachaf: did you know the empty topological space has dimension -1 01:11:03 oerjan: is that lebesgue covering dimension 01:11:11 oerjan: ow. 01:11:12 probably several? 01:11:25 i didn't know that 01:11:28 boily: it fits very nicely into definitions 01:11:33 -!- adu has joined. 01:11:34 i guess it makes some sort of sense, maybe 01:11:46 since the one-point space surely has dimension 0 01:11:54 maybe the empty space should have dimension -∞?? 01:12:33 I think the prime decomposition of zero has all exponents = infinity 01:13:09 shachaf: no, see, if you have an n-dimensional space, then by one of those inductive definitions that means the boundary sets in it are n-1 dimensional, and n is the smallest number that works for. 01:13:27 and that happens to give the right definition for 0-dimensional if the empty space is -1 01:14:07 Taneb: hmm, I'd prefer 0 not to have a prime factorization. it is the greatest element in the divisibility lattice though. 01:15:02 boundary sets of what? 01:15:10 ...let me look it up 01:15:17 oh, i guess you mean "at most n-1 dimensional" or something? 01:15:19 i don't know 01:16:12 shachaf: well it works for lebesgue covering too, i see 01:16:55 "We want the dimension of a point to be 0, and a point has empty boundary, so we start with" 01:16:59 \operatorname{ind}(\varnothing)=\operatorname{Ind}(\varnothing)=-1 01:17:37 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_dimension 01:17:58 and yes, at most 01:20:59 fungot seems to be missing! 01:21:03 fizzie! 01:21:13 fungone 01:27:35 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:29:47 -!- nooga has joined. 01:33:20 nellooga. 01:34:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:34:44 -!- scounder has quit (Changing host). 01:34:44 -!- scounder has joined. 01:49:07 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:56:30 -!- tlewkow has joined. 01:57:07 Freefall theory: the fact that Florence now has a wiped ID chip will become relevant 01:58:11 -!- fungot has joined. 01:58:25 I'm practically asleep already. 01:58:47 welcome back, fungot 01:58:48 shachaf: may be." a little confusing to people who think that way 01:59:32 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:00:35 fungot: of course people who think like you are confused. even people who don't. 02:00:35 boily: maybe i should fix the texinfo if you don't 02:00:56 fungot: I ain't touching no texinfo. pfshaw! manpages for ever! 02:00:56 boily: asian girls usually are in decimal anyway, though, i don't need your stinkin' context, riastradh. :) what particular differences are you having 02:01:20 asian girls are in decimal? de quossé? 02:02:08 ^style 02:02:08 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 02:03:33 I should have known better than to expect anything else than irc. 02:03:56 ^style ct 02:03:57 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 02:03:59 aw 02:04:13 fizzie: nlab would be a good style 02:07:25 fungot: done any good sword stopping lately? 02:07:25 oerjan: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! 02:08:37 fungot: ... 02:08:37 int-e: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!! crono!! crono!! 02:08:56 fungot: ok, that was two cronos, can you do three? 02:08:56 int-e: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone c 02:09:27 ^style qwantz 02:09:27 Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011) 02:09:28 Ah, a different loop, I'll take what I can get. 02:09:41 um that _is_ the loop. 02:09:56 The Loop 02:10:07 But "crono!! crono!! crono!! crono!! crono!! crono!! ..." would've been so much nicer. 02:10:49 i haven't seen that, i suspect that isn't an unescapable one 02:11:00 And sorry, but I'm no expert on fungot loops. 02:11:00 int-e: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. do i seem to see them, but they all suspect he's sad. they say " are you alright 02:11:52 fungot: well if he's sad he should report for termination immediately! 02:11:52 oerjan: people in car car simulator trucko boat 3. that's a ' thr' followed that. 02:12:03 fungot: who's "he" and what's he doing at the bottom of the bottle? 02:12:03 int-e: i like that this is, like, a 50/ 50 mixture of both societal and biological self, all that gets us is a murky combination of influences, predisposition, anyways. the point is that i came, i'd have to throw away a good chunk of it for the days i've already lived. 02:12:31 fungot: that did not help at all. 02:12:31 int-e: dammit t-rex, how many? encase unspoiled areas, where good and bad at different points in the arcade version, this isn't a riddle. it's a real question i'm investigating! 02:14:02 `? fungot 02:14:02 int-e: this may be a bad time to say all the run-of-the-mill thoughts we have! and it is a secret! i never 02:14:03 Sir Fungellot cannot be stopped by that sword alone! 02:14:12 Ah. 02:14:24 That makes a lot more sense now. 02:15:42 I like "run-of-the-mill secrets" 02:19:42 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 02:26:28 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 02:28:34 sometimes I'm thinking too much. http://qdb.us/307308 ... I guess Thurmond or one of Thurmond's freinds is called Josh, which happens to approximate ёж. 02:30:45 I'll take "What is a Yozh for 400". 02:32:29 the zh is devoiced, it seems 02:32:51 what? 02:32:56 how do you pronounce unvoiced zh 02:33:15 shachaf: um russian has mandatory devoicing of final consonants 02:33:39 Nah, ж is voiced, that's why I wrote "approximate" 02:33:52 int-e: um it's not reflected in spelling 02:34:10 ж is the voiced ш 02:34:20 but e.g. the ipa here is unvoiced https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%91%D0%B6 02:34:38 int-e: i know that. i'm just saying it's _pronounced_ unvoiced in that position. 02:35:05 what's the voiced щ twh 02:35:43 doesn't exist. жтж?! 02:36:08 i don't think щ is actually pronounced as штш 02:36:40 that's just what they want us to think 02:36:51 (I did forget most of the Russion I've ever learned, but ёжик was a mnemonik for the ж letter which looks a bit like a hedgehog.) 02:36:54 shachaf: from what i learned on wikipedia while learning a russian song, the t is usually not pronounced these days 02:37:14 oerjan: ш and щ are pronounced slightly differently 02:37:22 i just can barely hear the difference 02:37:30 int-e: yeah but there the ж is not final 02:37:36 but i talk to russian speakers and they tell me which one is which 02:38:33 int-e: i thought the usual mnemonic was жук? 02:38:39 since it looks a bit like one 02:38:53 also "djuk" is a common hebrew term for cockroach 02:38:59 shachaf: ask them if there's a difference between ш and с in front of palatalizing vowels 02:39:10 oerjan: they aren't around hth 02:39:14 ah 02:39:56 oerjan: it may be voiced less than in the middle of a word, but I'd still expect an audible difference; (also I'd expect to have learned about such a difference and I'm sure I haven't) 02:41:46 shachaf: that would make sense, but maybe hedgehogs appeal more to children (I was 8 or 9 at the time...) 02:42:02 hebrew has so many good words 02:42:43 "chupchik" should be imported 02:42:49 but i think it doesn't really fit in english 02:43:41 -!- tromp has joined. 02:44:41 shachaf: my impression is that щ is pronounced like two consonants, they're just both fricative-like 02:45:46 oerjan: there are recordings at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_sibilant 02:45:55 maybe i should have studied linguistics, in which case i would now be in a #linguistics channel somehow discussing math 02:46:29 -!- zlsa has left ("Leaving"). 02:47:16 someone put a [citation needed] on norwegian for the former :P 02:47:26 does that mean it's not what i think it is 02:47:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:48:58 "Application blocked by security settings" yeah i think that happened the last time i tried to hear sound on wikipedia too 02:49:39 I think there is no actual 't' in щ, but you interrupt the air flow with your tongue just like for a t. 02:50:16 yeah 02:52:08 oh and the other article claims _that_ is the sound norwegian uses. 02:52:30 maybe it's a regional thing? 02:52:49 Bicyclidine: it depends on neither awea norwegian 02:53:17 I fear Norwegian can't be properly experienced except through being very, very regional. 02:53:19 what 02:53:38 Bicyclidine: it's me trying for a neither-nor pun and not succeeding hth 02:53:46 boily: yep 02:53:47 life is hard 02:56:43 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 02:57:06 that was pwetty bad 02:58:07 I just understood shachaf's pun. I shouldn't be laughing. 02:58:40 ok i have a question 02:58:47 yay! 02:58:52 does "awea" have a meaning? 02:59:06 say you're facing north on the equator. you go east while still facing north. eventually you end up back at your starting position still facing north. 02:59:10 int-e: it has a pwetty cwear meaning, yes 02:59:29 if you walk a bit north before going east, you'll follow some other longitude line 02:59:45 ah. 02:59:50 but if you walk all the way to the north pole without turning, and then sidestep right, you'll be on a latitude. 03:00:00 am i missing omsething? this seems too abrupt, somehow 03:00:13 ok, I have to agwee with oewjan, that was pwetty awful. 03:01:33 Bicyclidine: um is your problem that longitude isn't continuous at the poles? 03:01:43 (or even defined) 03:01:44 Bicyclidine: you're dividing by zero 03:01:44 well, yes. 03:01:48 i mean i knew about that. 03:02:05 but somehow "right" going from meaning east to meaning south to meaning west within an infinitesimal space seems really weird. 03:02:41 tiny circle, tinier circle, ENTIRE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE MANIFOLD, tinier circle, tiny circle 03:03:02 Bicyclidine: hm it's not _actually_ east if you walk more than infinitesimally other than at the equator 03:03:18 wht? 03:03:41 except on the equator, you'll never be walking on a straight line (great circle), why does this suddenly change when you reach the pole? it's a bit hard to walk on a circle with zero radius, granted, but that's what you ought to be doing.) 03:03:42 well what does "sidestep" mean 03:03:50 ( 03:04:05 oh, yeah. maybe the problem is i'm assuming you maintain your direction relative to the pole, except at the pole 03:04:08 that makes sense 03:04:19 yay 03:04:20 thx 03:04:41 riemannian geometry: weird. 03:05:10 shachaf: it's before you take a jump to the left, and put your knees together. 03:05:22 Btw (off topic) im curious on the concept of 0 but whatever 03:05:29 i'm done 03:05:32 what's this about zeroes 03:05:48 additive identity, multiplicative whatever, deliciously donut-shaped 03:06:06 you put your left foot in, your left foot out, you put your left foot in and shake off the icebear gnawing at it 03:06:16 Bicyclidine: it's another word for root hth 03:06:16 *polar bear 03:06:23 that's why root has uid 0 03:06:27 makes sense 03:06:45 Dulnes: it's an absorbing element for multiplication. 03:07:16 for the monoid of possibly-infinite lists, every infinite list is a left zero 03:07:18 Well i feel like the only reason dividing by zero is impossible is because you are secretly dividing by infinity ( this is just my speculation ) 03:07:38 no, you're secretly multiplying by it hth 03:07:42 it's actually a conspiracy by The Man intended to keep you down 03:07:51 K 03:07:54 dividing by zero doesn't work because you don't know which infinity you are multiplying with htah 03:07:56 it doesn't make sense because there's too many things it could be 03:08:13 0*2 = 0, but 0*3 = 0 too 03:08:35 Everytime you divide by zero a universe ends 03:08:36 that's where surreal numbers get quite useful. 03:08:37 It just so happens that 0 * x = 1 has no solution (unless you allow 0 = 1, and very few mathematicians allow that kind of ring). 03:09:00 or you allow * = + 03:09:08 imo zero divisors, 03:09:14 0 / 0 = ... 03:09:25 I think the reason dividing by infinity is not allowed is because 0x=1 has no solution rather than for other reason, although there are other reason too that is combine with. 03:09:28 shachaf: if that's supposed to become a ring ... how does that satisfy the distributive laws? 03:09:33 0⁰ = 0.99999... 03:09:34 So, there is many reasons. 03:09:47 you know what's fucked up? nilpotency 03:09:58 Bicyclidine: whoa whoa whoa 03:10:02 nilpotency is great 03:10:02 naaah 03:10:05 what are you talking about 03:10:10 Well then 03:10:15 int-e: I suppose a trivial ring will have 0=1 though? 03:10:19 well i mean it's cool 03:10:22 but also? fucked up 03:10:24 that's just a fact 03:10:48 why 03:11:09 i don't make the rules 03:11:13 0 / x=1 03:11:35 *°* 03:11:36 int-e: um surely the trivial ring is a ring, otherwise you don't have a variety. fields are another matter though. (also see ...wtf wikipedia went down) 03:11:43 zzo38: it's quite common to have 0 != 1 as one of the ring axioms. 03:12:08 int-e: Really? I didn't think it is. 03:12:30 > 0/0 03:12:31 NaN 03:12:33 I need cofee 03:12:38 Coffee* 03:12:45 but not universally agreed upon. (obviously since it's not even universally agreed that rings have multiplicative units) 03:13:21 Then you will have many definition of a "ring" 03:13:26 yes 03:13:31 I feel like you shouldnt even let a bot try to div by 0 03:13:32 three, at least. 03:13:48 Its very deadly for most bots 03:13:48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element 03:13:58 oerjan: So "all vector spaces are free" tells you that a linear map : V -o W is characterized by its action on a basis of V 03:14:01 (Right?) 03:14:11 Fun! 03:14:15 oerjan: for all primes except 1 ... 03:14:19 Phun 03:14:29 all primes except 1? does that include -infinity or not? 03:14:40 vanila: of course not 03:14:45 oerjan: But is there some similar thing that talks about the basis of W? 03:15:00 Dulnes: coffee is always good. drink more coffee. 03:15:11 I.e. the thing that makes matrices work. 03:15:41 shachaf: well "characterized" would seem to imply to me just one way, you need also that any map from the basis can be extended 03:16:01 What do you mean? 03:16:23 I was alluding to history. Quoting randomly from the internet (Yahoo answers): "Actually pre 19th centuary 1 was considerd to be a prime." 03:16:30 i mean you could take any generating set, and it would be characterized by its action on that, even if it's not independent 03:16:49 What does it mean for it not to be independent? 03:17:05 The elements of the basis can just be taken as formal elements or however people normally put that. 03:17:12 But once you start getting serious about number theory, you'll end up with many statements that hold for all primes except 1. So it's more convenient if you just define 1 not to be prime. 03:17:17 Let's say : FA -o W, where F is the free functor. 03:17:23 Or maybe I don't understand your objection. 03:17:31 its a joke 03:17:48 shachaf: my objection is that much of your claim is baked into the definition of "basis" 03:18:22 there are other sets such that a linear transformation is characterized by its action on them. 03:18:34 -!- nooga has joined. 03:18:44 and if you were _not_ working in a vector space, those sets might be all you have 03:18:46 You mean any superset of a basis? 03:18:52 y'all manage to make linear seem even more complicated than kolmogorov could make it. impressive? yes. 03:18:54 for vector spaces yes 03:18:58 I don't think you really need the word "basis" here. 03:19:17 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HYPOSEGMENTAL CHICKEN). 03:19:22 If you have a map : FA -o W, it corresponds to a function : A -> UW 03:19:28 shachaf: you need some way to imply that there exists a set such that any map from that set to W can be extended to the whole of V. 03:20:07 Isn't that part of what it means to say that FA is free? 03:20:10 which for vector spaces is the same as "basis" but that's not the case in other algebras (including non-free modules over rings) 03:20:14 Maybe we could say 1 over infinity = 0 03:20:24 Uh that is a problem because if we divide 1 into infinite peices and they end up 0 each what happened to 1? So nvm 03:20:46 shachaf: ok maybe you only had implication in one direction to start with 03:20:52 -!- adu has joined. 03:21:36 I'm confused. 03:21:44 there's no particular need to define one over infinity 03:21:51 just go into projective geometry or something instead 03:22:07 Dulnes: now you have a new concept that doesn't fit nicely into rings, namely infinity. 03:22:40 (brain fart) 03:22:45 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:22:53 Dulnes: You *can* do this, but you're bound to lose some properties; in this case, that's likely to be inverses for addition. 03:23:43 Dulnes: 1 over infinity = 0 is pretty standard for functions on the riemann sphere. you still get trouble with 0/0, though. 03:24:06 oerjan: Anyway, as far as I can tell, that's half of why you can make matrices work between finite-dimensional vector spaces. 03:24:25 Since you can "take a vector apart" in terms of its basis. 03:25:07 right 03:25:41 But where does the other half come from? 03:25:56 Is that just from W being free? 03:26:07 matrices also work somewhat for commutative rings 03:26:23 could you give a linear transform just by describing its eigenspaces and kernel, i wonder. would that work without a basis. i guess not since that probably adds up to a basis. 03:26:28 although i don't know about modules over them 03:26:59 shachaf: i think i'm too tired for this 03:27:10 oerjan: hey you were too tired last night too 03:27:14 @time oerjan 03:27:15 Local time for oerjan is Sun Nov 23 04:26:46 2014 03:27:21 get some fucking sleep 03:27:22 maybe you should sleep hth 03:27:24 Bicyclidine: the kernel is one of the eigenspaces hth 03:27:26 aren't you like ninety 03:27:28 yeah i know 03:28:03 shachaf: i may be permanently tired of very high math. 03:28:16 godspeed, friend 03:28:16 whoa, i didn't know you were high 03:28:21 that explains it 03:29:19 also neck pain 03:29:59 1/x, 1 1.00000, 2 0.50000, 4 0.25000, 10 0.10000, 100 0.01000 03:30:07 Bicyclidine: my sleeping cycle has been utterly unstable for years; i _couldn't_ sleep now if i tried. 03:30:15 take some xtc 03:30:20 Take a roofie 03:31:23 I think coffee is bad for me 03:31:38 0/0 never works 03:31:39 Never 03:31:54 Shhh 03:31:59 shachaf: somewhere you need the property that any basis for a subspace can be extended to a basis of the whole space. 03:32:34 i guess humans will never know 03:32:44 Im done trying to calculate this 03:32:47 (FTR, I generally don't find category theory helpful for this. I keep having to translate everything back into vector space terms.) 03:32:59 question two: how does a simulation of relativistic physics work? is it possible to have an absolute spacetime that internal observers would see as einsteinian? 03:33:17 or do you have to do the events business 03:33:31 int-e: Why? 03:33:45 becuase all the category stuff ounds like gibberish that's why 03:33:50 Why what? It's abstract nonsense, is why. 03:33:51 I'm tempted to make a small programming language where the type system really is algebraic 03:33:58 Why do you need that property? 03:34:00 So the type of an 8-bit number would be 2^8 03:34:01 FreeFull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory hth 03:34:12 (That's a quote, but who said that...) 03:34:15 Also I don't know vector space terms and I know at least a few category theory terms. 03:34:15 FreeFull, That sounds really cool 03:34:17 algebraic data types are sufficiently algebraic for me 03:34:29 I would be interested in it 03:34:35 2spooky4me 03:34:53 FreeFull: Yes, we should see it OK, try to make such a thing please 03:34:58 ah maybe it wasn't any person in particular. 03:35:00 x = 1 + x, bam, linked list or whatever 03:35:07 how does it work again. whatever fuck math 03:35:20 Indeed 03:35:29 x = 1+ax. right. 03:35:29 oh i had another question about free things 03:35:37 and 1+ax² is a binary tree and bla bla. bla. 03:35:42 is there some sense in which a topology generated by a subbasis is free over that subbasis 03:36:01 * Dulnes is now done 03:36:03 Bicyclidine: the twin paradox means that a simulation that includes it cannot give the correct einsteinian times for both observers 03:36:04 e.g. maybe you have a lattice of all possible topologies over a set or something 03:36:05 Goodnight 03:36:09 Note you'd want to have some sort of tag system too, to tag if a number is unsigned or such 03:36:39 so the simulation could at best only be watched by one person in "realtime" 03:36:50 shachaf: It's also that my knowledge of CT is rather limited. I shut down at the point anybody mentions adjoint functors. 03:36:54 . z Z 03:36:57 hmmmmm 03:37:05 @time int-e 03:37:05 Local time for int-e is Sun Nov 23 04:36:36 2014 03:37:15 int-e: have you considered that adjoint functors are the best thing 03:37:18 it just suddenly seemed weird that hashlife relies on their being a speed of light, but not lorentz covariance 03:37:21 ...probably 03:37:48 The twin paradox is resolved by considering acceleration 03:37:50 shachaf: I've seen some enthusiasm displayed on the subject. I couldn't follow. 03:38:33 int-e: i think the catsters videos about them were good?? 03:38:43 s/.$// 03:39:56 Bicyclidine: i once tried to find out if rule 110 had a nontrivial space-time symmetry 03:40:03 i'm still not sure 03:40:25 i have a professor that does computational physics and he already indulged me about GR, I'll just ask 03:40:27 it is _possible_ you could find a rule 11 metacell that moved at a different speed 03:40:33 *110 03:41:16 (i was intrigued by how the list of gliders known for it seemed to have a pattern in the speeds allowed.) 03:42:20 oerjan: What is a nontrivial space-time symmetry? 03:42:23 (incidentally rule 110 has a different maximal speed _inside_ the ether pattern 03:42:26 ) 03:42:31 i guess GoL isn't lorenz. because the speed of light is absolute. huh. 03:42:36 i don't know how i hadn't noticed this 03:42:54 Bicyclidine: um the speed of light is absolute in reality too 03:43:09 No, I mean... 03:43:13 right, in general there's only one frame of reference in cellular automata 03:43:20 If you had a colle- ok yeah that basically. 03:43:25 zzo38: anything other than translation, mirroring and rescaling... 03:43:44 If you were a living automata collection and were moving at a constant velocity, you coul dtell that you were moving at a constant velocity. 03:44:21 zzo38: you'd want a map which took a complete time evolution of rule 110 and mapped it, locally continuously, into another complete time evolution moving at a different relative speed. 03:45:02 also, there would be some restriction on the patterns allowed to deal with the need to be inside the "ether" pattern. 03:45:36 i assume the ether pattern would be like a vacuum, and mapped to itself. 03:45:56 there would need to be some expansion in size, i think. 03:46:21 oh crazy ... http://uncomp.uwe.ac.uk/genaro/Papers/Papers_on_CA_files/MARTINEZ.pdf 03:46:25 Rather than something like rule 110, you could have some sort of particle physics thing? 03:46:31 Just, turing-complete 03:46:54 Why is the "Mathematical Universe Hypothesis" called that? It isn't really a scientific hypothesis, as far as I can tell. 03:47:21 zzo38: Well, it doesn't say scientific in its name 03:47:34 "hypothesis" is a liberal lie, join the navy 03:47:37 The twin paradox is resolved by considering acceleration <-- you still cannot make a multiplayer simulator that lets each player experience the correct proper time, though, because of it. 03:48:00 oerjan: Yes you can, you just have to load one of the players into a rocket.. 03:48:11 It doesn't really seem a hypothesis at all, really... 03:48:52 FreeFull: O KAY 03:49:16 zzo38: conjecture? 03:49:24 "idea" 03:49:27 "brainfart" 03:49:38 It doesn't really seem a conjecture either. 03:50:11 Not that there is anything wrong with the mathematical universe hypothesis, but the name seems a bit wrong. 03:50:18 zzo38: it's a hypothesis, just not a scientific one. 03:50:51 int-e: Are you sure? I am not very sure. 03:50:55 (at least my limited brain cannot imagine any way it could be tested) 03:50:59 Mathematics is a conspiracy 03:51:07 It's too mysterious 03:51:13 int-e: i think that's the paper i looked at, way back 03:51:15 Why primes? 03:51:41 They're not random, but we can't just find a pattern 03:52:08 Rather than something like rule 110, you could have some sort of particle physics thing? <-- the thing is, if it's not 1d you have to deal with rotations and i have no clue how that would work. 03:53:07 oerjan: You'd just have a bunch of straight line intersections, I assume 03:53:49 i mean to have lorentz-like invariance or at least an endomorphism 03:53:54 more like gooey desics 03:55:12 zzo38: (I'd also call the Church-Turing thesis a hypothesis.) 03:55:17 int-e: when it was discussed over at aaronson's blog (he's a friend of tegmark but otherwise disagrees pretty strongly), someone brought up "dust theory" from the SF novel permutation city 03:55:25 colloquially, "working assumption" 03:55:28 fucking egan. 03:55:46 int-e: That I can see, kind of. But it is a bit different. 03:55:46 that would allow you a test, although not one that you could bring back the results of. 03:55:55 well, there's my physics professor emailed. i'm sure he'll be happy to get a half-formed email about something he doesn't actually work in. 03:56:16 (which is pretty similar to black holes...) 03:56:52 About mathematical universe hypothesis, I think it is more philosophical kind of and isn't scientific (and that Occam's Razor wouldn't actually tell you anything about it and is irrelevant to this kind of discussion, even though other people say otherwise). I also do believe in such thing though, in a way; have you heard of my diagram involving GOD and how it relates to such thing? 03:57:26 hm i'm still waiting for that picture of a black hole that was promised "soon" over a year ago, i think. 03:57:31 science is also a liberal lie. 03:57:39 have you considered accepting our lord and savor feyerabend 03:57:43 And how you can see how it follow from that, its relation more to philosophy than scientific. 03:57:46 he's delicious 03:57:52 although i haven't been keeping up with science news, i assume i'd have heard of _that_ 03:57:56 Sure, it's philosophical. Is there hope of being a mathematical model of the whole universe or is the best we can do to come up with ever more precise approximations? 03:57:56 Bicyclidine: I do not understand. 03:58:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemological_anarchism 03:58:20 (These two options are not mutually exclusive either.) 03:58:24 int-e: Probably, coming up with ever more precise approximations; over time it can be figured out. 03:58:58 Bicyclidine: delicious? is this a cannibalistic religion like christianity? 03:59:05 (whether or not anyone figures out an exact mathematical model; but I think even if someone can you cannot really tell for sure?) 03:59:26 oerjan: absolutely 03:59:31 good, good 04:00:34 I believe it must mathematically exist, but that it doesn't necessarily mean anyone can ever figure out. 04:01:11 zzo38: So you believe in the MUH. 04:01:18 I may have told you about my diagram with four concentric circles? 04:01:24 int-e: Yes, I have said that already. 04:01:43 is it a Venn diagram? 04:01:51 i misspelled "savior", but hey why mess wwith that 04:02:43 int-e: Not really 04:04:10 The contents of the diagram aren't really considered as sets although sets may be a concept that can be understood more easily than GOD. 04:05:21 There's no understanding the elements of the empty set. Their remarkable properties are without end. 04:05:54 what did "god" stand for in ged again 04:05:55 It is easily understood: There are none. That isn't the point, though. 04:06:07 GOD over... something/ 04:06:24 geb? 04:06:24 Bicycldine: "GOD Over Djinn" (if you mean Godel, Escher, Bach) 04:06:34 yeah that was it 04:06:38 and yes i meant geb. durr 04:06:50 yes, Djinn. 04:07:58 > fix id -- this was the essence of the GOD computation, it just happened to pick a different fixed point 04:08:02 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 04:09:40 I wasn't talking about Hofstadter's books though 04:11:24 int-e: iirc it was also implied that some steps would have errors 04:12:12 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:12:38 Hofstadter Shmoffstadter 04:13:16 I do like his book though 04:25:36 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:32:34 -!- tromp has joined. 04:37:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:54:31 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:59:02 -!- tromp has joined. 05:00:39 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:01:35 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:02:09 -!- tromp has joined. 05:07:29 -!- nooga has joined. 05:12:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:14:18 -!- augur has joined. 05:28:14 -!- tlewkow has joined. 05:51:14 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 05:56:39 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:02:53 -!- tlewkow has quit. 06:04:28 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:21:27 -!- tlewkow has joined. 06:40:59 -!- Dulnes has joined. 06:41:15 Happy birthday to me... Ew 06:46:13 Ew indeed... http://iambaker.net/rainbow-birthday-cake/ 06:46:49 No... 06:47:03 `` echo 'Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday to Dulnes, happy birthday to you!' | rainwords 06:47:04 ​Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday to Dulnes, happy birthday to you! 06:48:16 :0 thanks oerjan 06:49:07 And int-e if my child requested of me a "pretty cake" i would give them a cupcake with a hot dog sticking out of it 06:49:17 int-e: not a believer in the 7-color rainbow, i see 06:49:53 I like the gray scale rainbows 06:50:41 The awful ones you see at a Florida airport 06:55:42 oerjan: apparently not 06:56:24 -!- nooga has joined. 06:57:43 * J_Arcane writes list functions he still can't use anywhere ... 07:00:46 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:02:19 Oh, I had not read friday's GG comic, I like the general. 07:05:11 What's a good test list for making sure foldl and foldr are working as expected? 07:08:13 > foldr (:) [] [1..] 07:08:15 [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... 07:08:43 > foldr (:) [] (1:2:undefined) 07:08:45 [1,2*Exception: Prelude.undefined 07:09:07 > foldl (flip (:)) [] [1..10] 07:09:08 [10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1] 07:09:48 Heh. I'm in a lisp, no lazy evaluation. That's a good point though, that was the usecase LYAH used. 07:10:53 also, test [] 07:12:27 Hmm. I thought I'd try subtraction. Got this: http://pasterack.org/pastes/41876 07:13:32 Err, that should say -15. 07:14:15 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:14:42 looks right to me 07:14:42 -!- tlewkow has joined. 07:14:44 That does appear to be the correct result if I step through it in my head. 07:14:54 Wonder why Racket's foldl/r don't do the same. 07:15:00 -!- shikhin has joined. 07:15:22 possibly it uses different argument order? 07:15:42 > foldl (flip (-)) 0 [1..5] 07:15:44 3 07:15:46 Could be. 07:15:58 try with an even length list 07:17:03 [] is the perfect test case 07:17:07 it's the free monoid 07:18:02 another good test case is the free pointed magma 07:18:24 i.e. data N a = N a | NEmpty | NAppend (N a) (N a) 07:19:05 http://pasterack.org/pastes/37221 07:19:07 -!- tlewkow has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:25:49 * oerjan swats shachaf in the type system ~~~~~¤¤¤ 07:26:04 help 07:26:10 what did ı do 07:26:31 confused the value [] with the type constructor [] 07:26:48 shachaf: Ahh, I see what you mean. http://pasterack.org/pastes/16294 07:27:28 oerjan: oh 07:28:08 I think it's in how I wrote the null case vs. how Racket wrote it. 07:29:09 http://pasterack.org/pastes/10137 07:29:31 I wish I could configure Chromium to open links in Incognito mode. 07:29:39 That way I could just click them instead of copying and pasting. 07:31:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nitey). 07:35:05 -!- shikhin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:05 Ahhhh. I see now. Racket flips the arguments in foldl. Which is why it makes a clean list, and why the results come the way they do. 07:42:36 ie. Heresy (and Haskell) recur with something like (foldl fun (fun base (car lst)) (cdr lst)), I can get the Racket result by instead doing (foldl fun (fun (car lst) base) (cdr lst)). 07:47:13 seems weird. 07:49:04 Or use for/fold? 07:49:06 >.> 07:49:13 I guess it's to make sure that folds make clean lists when working with cons. 07:49:19 :D 07:49:20 How often does foldl/foldr itself get passed to another function? 07:50:35 depends, are you writing pointless haskell 07:51:01 Heh. Guy Steele has a talk about 'foldl and foldr considered slightly harmful' 07:51:21 And a teacher's post I was just reading flat out just said 'don't use foldl.' 07:51:22 "monoids considered better" 07:51:24 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:51:29 A teacher's post? 07:51:51 Instructor notes from this class: http://www.scs.stanford.edu/11au-cs240h/ 07:51:57 Oh, that. 07:52:06 Yes, foldl is almost never the right function to use. 07:52:27 But how is foldr harmful? 07:52:51 Although it sucks trying to translate foldr into a non-lazy language because then you need to figure out how to get it to terminate 07:52:51 Sgeo: Dunno, but Steel's talk is here: http://vimeo.com/6624203 07:53:21 I guess foldr is a bit linear? 07:53:39 http://www.scs.stanford.edu/11au-cs240h/notes/par.html 07:54:09 I guess performance wise they can both be problematic in Haskell too? 08:05:40 Reading Racket's sources does make me understand why Haskellers love that type system ... so much ass covering. 08:09:15 it's cool. just look at any haskell definition involving tuples. 08:12:44 I saw the new Smash Brothers game, and they didn't add Professor Oak and Imakuni? as playable characters. 08:23:09 "In the Victorian era (when the reigning monarch was Queen Victoria) The British Rule was widely used in contract bridge games throughout the British Empire. In certain parts of India, local bylaws enforced its usage, punishable by a fine." How and why did they enforce this? 08:45:18 -!- nooga has joined. 08:49:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:57:56 -!- HashNode has joined. 08:58:14 -!- HashNode has left. 08:58:48 -!- scoofy has joined. 09:02:16 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:04:29 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:15:23 Hah hah. Was looking at F# a minute ago, and just now looked at the channel topic. XD 09:27:50 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:34:25 !blsq_uptime 09:34:26 1d 18h 57m 27s 09:37:19 hi 09:39:39 I tried the guy steele talk 09:39:40 it says 09:39:43 "Hey, Sandra Bullock LiedHer Fans Are In Shock. Her Huge Secret Is Finally Exposed!" 09:39:53 but when I clicked it was about divina mcall 09:40:36 I don't get it. 09:40:47 Sandra Bullock is better/more interesting 09:41:11 and what does that have to do with Guy Steele? 09:41:17 nothing 09:47:10 lol his "lisp code" 09:47:22 its not valid scheme OR CL 09:51:39 what lisp code? 09:51:49 http://vimeo.com/6624203 09:56:55 -!- vanila has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:15:19 "Fun" conversation starter: have you ever lost a piece of code you were really proud of, and weren't able to rewrite it again? 10:19:13 I do not remember. 10:34:11 -!- nooga has joined. 10:38:55 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:38:09 -!- nooga has joined. 11:38:22 J_Arcane: The source code of Stlisp probably 11:38:35 although I guess I could rewrite it. It's just a matter of time/effort. 11:38:48 and the Stlang source code 11:39:22 When I was younger I wrote a really clever routine for haggling with a shopkeeper in an RPG that's still better than any such mechanic I've seen since. Then my brother powercycled the floppy drive with the disk still locked ... 11:39:50 J_Arcane: yes 11:39:56 my funge-98 interpreter 11:39:56 http://mroman.ch/cgi/cgitest.slisp?name=eso 11:40:03 I still have the interpreter executable though 11:43:05 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:43:50 J_Arcane: Do you remember of details? How does it work? 11:49:54 zzo38: Dimly. The basic gist was that the shopkeeper had a target price range, and a mood score, and there were various threshholds where either an offer would be accepted or refused, or even that he would get offended and throw you out. 12:02:43 `fromroman XXIV 12:02:44 24 12:03:15 `fromroman XIX 12:03:16 J_Arcane: Is that all? 12:03:17 19 12:04:42 zzo38: It's the basic idea, but it's still more than I've ever seen in a commercial game (there's probably some clever roguelike with a better one I've never heard of though, there usually is) 12:10:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:16:33 I mean how do these target price range, mood score, thresholds, offended, etc working? 12:19:06 Oh, the items all had standard prices, and used/sale price was computed as a randomized percentage of that, with min and max values relative to it and the shopkeeper's mood score. 12:19:41 Mood itself was I think randomized, and an ablative value almost like hit points: offend him enough and he'd tell you to piss off. 12:20:08 "Offending" basically meant asking too much or too little at the off. 12:20:33 So there was a strategy to it; you could work the shopkeeper down lower in steps than you could with a flat offer. 12:22:33 I think some version of angband had something like that, maybe. 12:23:18 that said, I'm not sure the shop interface should be a particularly trivial kind of combat :p 12:24:13 (but I'm particularly prone to being annoyed by things like that) 12:25:15 It was semi-optional, you could always just accept the offer when selling, and it only applied to used purchases (new stuff was fixed price). Also, it was otherwise a pretty simple text game of 'kill stuff, level, loot', so in context it was a nice added feature. 12:26:03 yeah, I just get annoyed by tradeoffs of "I'm doing worse than I could have been if I had the patience to play this subgame for the billionth time" easily :p 12:27:20 It's a fair point, yeah. 12:28:37 Certainly in something that wasn't essentially Recettear, it could be annoying. For me, I was always annoyed with games with 'barter systems' that weren't: Fallout's was like this, it wasn't really any kind of bartering because everything was fixed price and you were lucky if you could deviate even a single cap in your offer. 12:32:14 * elliott nods 12:32:26 I'm boring; I'm happy with shops-as-vending-machines. 13:10:31 -!- S1 has joined. 13:11:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:11:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 13:11:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:18:50 elliott: It's definitely not a feature I'd want to have to use every time (this is actually probably why I got bored with Recettear) for sure. 13:51:10 -!- boily has joined. 13:59:00 Wow. ECMA BASIC doesn't even *have* mid$ and instr$. 14:06:55 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:07:47 -!- scoofy has joined. 14:08:45 QBasic doesn't have "INSTR$" either, the function's called "INSTR" (since the result is a number). 14:09:21 J_Arcanello! there's an ECMA sanctified version of BASIC? 14:09:30 fiziello! 14:29:29 fizzie: right. MY bad there. 14:30:14 boily: Yes. ECMA-116: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST-WITHDRAWN/ECMA-116,%201st%20edition,%20June%201986.pdf (warning, v. large file) 14:32:09 There was also ECMA-55 for "Minimal BASIC" as well. 14:32:23 I even found a modern compiler for ECMA-55. 14:36:55 http://buraphakit.sourceforge.net/BASIC.shtml 15:20:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:22:47 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:23:10 @messages? 15:23:10 Sorry, no messages today. 15:28:29 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:31:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TILED CHICKEN). 15:48:25 If I normalize a string with the unicode CNF resp DNF normalizations, at most how many times longer can it become in UTF-16 code units? 15:50:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:50:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:53:27 what's up with the topic/ 15:55:52 -!- elliott has set topic: Visual Studio support channel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 15:55:57 someone made it inaccurate; fixed 15:56:15 what incident prompted the topic change in the first place? 15:56:52 someone came in looking for visual studio support 15:56:57 because of the topic 15:57:07 I hypothesise that this will no longer happen now that the topic mentions visual studio 15:57:34 it can't have been my "attempting to install Visual Studio lead to me needing to reformat the Windows and boot partition, then spend a few hours figuring out how to reinstall Ubuntu's bootloader after a boot partition reformat" 15:57:35 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 15:57:57 elliott: wait, what was the old topic pre-mentioning-VS? 15:58:12 something about being the black hole of programming madness 15:58:22 ais523: somehow that actually sounds on-topic 15:58:49 I am in favour of the topic being ontopic 15:59:46 I mean your problem 15:59:59 something can't be on itself, anyway 16:01:04 oh, my problem 16:01:06 Isn't the topic on-topic by definition? 16:01:12 yes, I considered it ontopic (both the current topic, and the /actual/ topic) 16:01:23 and I think I mentioned it in here 16:01:38 which reminds me, I have a mathematical problem 16:02:34 I have partial information about the output of an LCRNG (i.e. there is a sequence of numbers defined as r[i+1] = (r[i] * m + s) % x); specifically, for some subset of i, I know whether or not r[i+1] is greater than r[i] 16:02:48 and I want to go from this, to discovering the individual r[i] value 16:03:10 I'm interested in both the situation where I know what m/s/x are, and the situation where I don't 16:05:17 not really sure how to start, though 16:05:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:11:13 [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41114&oldid=40795 * GermanyBoy * (+431) /* summary */ added infobox 16:11:30 -!- tlewkow has joined. 16:39:04 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:40 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:55:19 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:55:22 -!- scarf has joined. 16:55:24 -!- scarf has quit (Changing host). 16:55:24 -!- scarf has joined. 16:55:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:55:38 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523. 17:06:39 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 17:20:14 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 17:22:20 `` echo . . - - "'" "'" "'" - - . . |rainwords 17:22:22 ​. . - - ' ' ' - - . . 17:23:51 ais523: if the state space is small (ie. 32 or 48 bits) you can always try solving all possible matches by brute force 17:24:11 could SAT/SMT solvers help with that problem? 17:24:58 elliott: possibly, but my experience with them isn't that good 17:28:20 for this sort of problem 17:28:32 newsham: I already do that with 32 bits, but I'm reaching a situation where I have a 64-bit internal state 17:28:35 too large to bruteforce 17:28:43 and yet this is miles from cryptosecure, it should be reversible 17:31:47 yah, wouldnt surprise me at all, but i have no idea how to reverse it 17:32:34 I guess the next obvious thing over just bruteforcing all of it would be to look for ways to eliminate possibilities and bruteforcing the rest. 17:34:30 ais: any info about the initial seed? if they're using lcrng they might also be seeding with time or pid or somethign silly 17:34:43 that might limit your search space greatly 17:34:59 newsham: actually, my situation is that two RNGs are being seeded from the same seed 17:35:07 one's pretty secure, the other is an LCRNG 17:35:16 also the seeding method itself is pretty secure 17:35:32 I want to figure out the sequence of the secure RNG by observing the output from the insecure one 17:35:45 ahh.. so you want to solve the original seed 17:36:05 yep 17:36:19 and the way to do that is to find out the insecure RNG's current seed 17:36:29 and they're using a 64-bit lcrng? thats pretty unusual. 17:36:32 then run it backwards, trying progressive seeds as the secure RNG seed until one of them works 17:36:36 and yes, it is pretty unusual 17:42:47 have you looked at all pairs R2 > R1 * m + n for some small space to try to build an intuition? 17:43:05 does it make bands in the state space? 17:43:52 would be neat if you could quantify the bands and at each step cut your search space in half 17:44:25 I've looked at some things like that 17:44:45 the problem is that you get a bunch of repeating patterns, but the actual pattern you get depends on the size of R1 17:45:13 obviously, for low R1, R2 is basically always higher 17:45:47 maybe then if you can find large sequences of > > > > > it would isolate a small value of R 17:45:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:45:55 then you can brute force that small value 17:46:43 hmm that would only give you a few bits though.. probability of finding a very long seq of > > > > would be low 17:47:37 newsham: the problem is, I don't have /all/ the > < representations 17:47:38 just a subset 17:47:46 if the values are similar, I'm unlikely to be able to tell which one's larger 17:47:57 so long > > > > > sequences, even though they often exist, are unlikely to be in the source data 17:48:02 sometimes I just get a ? 17:48:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:02:41 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 18:03:42 -!- shikhin has joined. 18:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:04:03 Oh dear. I've reached the dreaded question: 0-indexed or 1-indexed. 18:06:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:06:32 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 18:07:04 have you read your djikstra today 18:08:51 XD 18:10:06 Well, Djikstra wasn'texactly a BASIC fan ... 18:12:28 -!- tlewkow_ has joined. 18:13:55 so ubuntu has a setting where trying to upgrade your release doesn't actually check for new releases, and you're not informed of this. awesome. 18:13:58 maybe you can find some biases in the bits or R1 when R2 > R1 ? 18:15:35 https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html 18:17:47 yeah, that's what i was thinking of. 18:17:54 it's incredibly, incredibly anal, but pretty solid. 18:19:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:20:15 -!- nyuszika7h has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:20:26 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 18:20:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:21:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:21:45 -!- nyuszika7h_ has joined. 18:23:37 -!- nyuszika7h_ has changed nick to nyuszika7h. 18:23:56 ais523: looks like there might be some bias in one of the high bits: http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/bias.py 18:24:01 significant bias 18:24:24 newsham: when next(x) > x, it's likely that x is quite small 18:24:48 no, not that likely 18:24:50 my problem's more that I wonder if there's some mathematical way to get exact results 18:24:54 by bruteforcing particular bytes 18:25:26 you can get exact results with enough statistics 18:37:33 Hmm. Should calling out of index be an error or false? ie, calling (index 5 lst) where lst is only 3 entries long, etc. 18:39:43 if you find runs of >>>>> it greatly increases the chance that the original high bit was a zero 18:40:19 you could use that to prune your search space 18:40:40 -!- tlewkow_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:42:04 for a 16-bit lcrng, there are no runs of 5 >'s starting with the high bit set. 18:42:48 sorry, i should say "for the 16-bit lcrng i'm playing with" :) 18:47:53 right, long runs would be unlikely 19:06:41 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 19:16:35 Hah hah. I have written mid$. 19:20:00 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 19:25:13 !blsq 0 0 2047rn1024.+f: 19:25:13 | {{5 1358} {4 1705} {4 618} {4 66} {3 1985} {3 1921} {3 1855} {3 1816} {3 1811} {3 1651} {3 1462} {3 1419} {3 1388} {3 1308} {3 1277} {3 1184} {3 1120} {3 1052} {3 1046} {3 1003} {3 865} {3 856} {3 787} {3 630} {3 322} {3 221} {3 205} {3 54} {3 6} {2 2041} 19:25:40 in the year 1052 columbus sailed the ocean blue 19:25:46 !blsq 0 0 2047rn1024.+2047rz// 19:25:47 | ERROR: Unknown command: (//)! 19:25:47 | {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 7 19:25:50 !blsq 0 0 2047rn1024.+2047rz\\ 19:25:50 | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! 19:25:53 !blsq 0 0 2047rn1024.+2047rz\\ 19:25:54 | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! 19:25:56 pf 19:26:07 !blsq 0 0 1023rn1024.+1023rz\\ 19:26:08 | {733 22 135 636 444 750 382 614 438 779 961 434 156 509 779 302 168 701 763 623 856 982 856 335 601 816 205 822 251 322 156 225 516 618 949 1004 535 522 678 446 623 835 6 636 835 564 630 38 800 133 900 438 160 428 822 761 20 64 151 831 435 1017 247 520 9 4 19:26:12 !blsq 0 0 1023rn1024.+1023rz\\L[ 19:26:13 | 364 19:30:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:30:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:30:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 19:30:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:32:10 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 19:36:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:47:50 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:48:06 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 19:49:55 -!- Patashu has joined. 19:54:57 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:26:46 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:32:44 [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41115&oldid=39178 * Olls * (+197) /* Interpreter? */ 20:35:42 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Quit: restart). 20:38:43 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 20:38:47 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 20:40:18 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Client Quit). 20:43:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:43:35 -!- dts has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:43:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:44:50 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 20:45:06 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Client Quit). 20:45:13 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 20:52:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 20:53:37 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Quit: trying yet more else). 20:53:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:54:45 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 21:09:47 -!- S1 has joined. 21:11:37 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:13:48 -!- TodPunk has joined. 21:35:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:35:22 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 21:35:24 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Changing host). 21:35:24 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 21:40:44 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:40:52 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 21:53:52 -!- Dulnes has joined. 21:54:13 Why do i keep disconnecting 21:54:50 Would you like it if Professor Oak can become a playable character in Smash Brothers game? 21:55:03 no 21:55:05 Dulnes: I don't know? Possibly a problem with internet sometimes I have a problem too a bit 21:55:08 depends on what he could do 21:55:20 myname: he actually has battle data programmed in in gen 1 21:55:23 Throw pokeballs like a gattling gun 21:55:29 but there's no non-glitch way to cause it to be used 21:55:35 I could see him as an assist trophy 21:55:47 callforjudgement: Yes I know and I managed to vs him too 21:56:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:56:19 I think you can use the program 21:56:54 myname: I would think, you can sometimes throw a pokeball after a few seconds and that in addition, if you are using a separate display (such as Wii U gamepad) that it will tell you what pokemon is found in each pokeball on the screen too, and everyone else does not see that information until the pokeball is opened! 21:57:25 Dulnes: What program? 21:57:37 I meant 21:57:52 You could use the battle data 21:58:10 If you forcably seperated it from the cartridge 21:58:13 O, OK that's what you meant. 21:58:22 But whatever 21:58:30 Anyways smash 4 21:58:59 My brother has the newest Smash Brothers game on Wii U and Nintendo 3DS 21:59:07 So, I played this game too 21:59:14 Wii u 21:59:17 I want 21:59:32 Because new legend of zelda game 2015 21:59:33 I thought that didn't come out until Friday? 21:59:47 Came out last week i think 21:59:55 Ah, maybe Europe is later 21:59:57 One thing you still cannot do though even in the newest one is to set the self-destruct to -1.5 instead of only 0 and -1 and -2 22:00:02 I'm gonna get the 3DS version soon 22:00:08 Idk why it would be 22:00:16 Dulnes, translation issues 22:00:22 Both me and my brother want to be able to set self-destruct points to -1.5 22:00:30 zzo38, can you adjust all the other scores to make it effectively the same 22:00:31 Since it goes Japan - China - Europe - Americas 22:00:53 Or < that way on a map 22:01:05 Taneb: You could manually calculate the score I suppose if you like to; it doesn't allow you to otherwise adjust it. 22:01:16 However there is no function to disable sudden-death mode. 22:01:46 Dulnes, maps aren't really relevant to this sort of thing any more, not for a few decades 22:01:55 I doubt it's translation issues, at least entirely... 22:01:55 Moops 22:01:56 Again a function both of us wanted to have 22:02:16 I mean, if so why make Australia take until the 29th? 22:02:21 Or Japan until the 6th? 22:02:22 pikhq_, that's a point 22:02:30 (yes, Japan is the *last* country getting it) 22:02:46 :O 22:02:54 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker. 22:03:01 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti. 22:03:04 Btw 22:03:18 Ive been wondering why is Australia so hot 22:03:28 If its near the south pole 22:03:41 ... not especially. 22:03:44 Dulnes, it's closer to the equator than the UK is 22:03:49 Mmm 22:03:51 By quite some measure 22:04:01 try looking at a globe rather than a map :p 22:04:16 Goes to buy one 22:04:20 IIRC Northern Australia is literally in the tropics. 22:04:33 remember to by a new cpu core while you're at it 22:04:38 One thing they could have done but don't is to implement custom omega stages, which involves selecting music, graphics, and whether or not you can go underneath the platform. It isn't particularly important though. 22:04:39 to be fair, nobody lives in northern australia 22:04:51 It's about as close to the equator as India is 22:04:58 Smash 4 level creator 22:05:14 Is great 22:05:35 Ah, yep. And nearly all of the country is in the subtropics. 22:06:03 You and your giant galloping wolf spiders 22:06:35 Doesnt the worlds deadliest snake live there? 22:06:38 So yeah, it's pretty much entirely in the latitudes where simple sun exposure is likely to make things at least moderately hot. 22:06:52 the deadliest animals in Australia, statistically, are horses 22:07:10 Whut 22:07:23 The great emu war 22:07:31 Also, almost all of the continent is a desert, so there's that too. 22:07:59 i believe the emu's won 22:08:43 Understandably the population's concentrated around the not-desert bits. 22:08:48 There also is not the mode to use the time limit corresponding to the stage which is selected. 22:09:10 (This would only be applicable for some stages though.) 22:09:56 pikhq_: why did they have a war? 22:10:40 Beats me. 22:11:14 Anyways i actually do have food in my house and this time its not coffee based 22:11:55 `addquote Anyways i actually do have food in my house and this time its not coffee based 22:11:57 1223) Anyways i actually do have food in my house and this time its not coffee based 22:12:46 coffee cake? 22:12:51 that's coffee-based 22:20:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:26 If I start eating a lot of sugary snacks, but I still eat the other foods I was eating before (so it's not taking the place of anything else), and I'm not close to being overweight, is that still bad? 22:21:50 I'm going with no 22:21:53 i still don't understand why you come here for this sort of advice 22:22:54 This channel was just talking about food >.> 22:23:13 -!- tlewkow has joined. 22:24:38 food is great 22:24:48 food is the thing i like to eat the most 22:26:54 myname, I prefer to eat business cards 22:27:00 But I find them very filling 22:27:05 very well 22:28:53 We werent talking about food 22:29:06 We were talking about how everything is edible 22:30:46 Apparently the notion of getting diabetes type 2 from too much sugar is a myth? 22:33:59 do I dare ask what you're planning 22:35:19 I bought a box of boxes of fruit by the foot recently 22:35:30 They taste so good. I've been eating about a box a day 22:53:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:54:34 Do you know if any SQL-based RPG engines exist, or do I have to write one? 22:55:05 i sense elliott didn't like my dark humor 22:55:56 more like ais523 didn't 22:56:10 aha 22:56:24 hey, I just asked what the topic was about 22:56:28 because I missed the incident that caused it 22:59:41 hm i was going to say that both solutions to http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Dominosa+Small were too large to be solving the problem properly, but i think they're actually too large to be using compression. 23:02:40 -!- shikhout has joined. 23:06:31 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:07:32 What did I miss about an incident that callforjudgement missed? 23:08:40 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:08:59 oerjan: a cheat solution would be much smaller than that 23:09:09 selecting randomly between three fixed strings isn't hard in most languages 23:09:13 i know, i'm writing a trivial one 23:14:00 there 23:14:51 fizzie: bah 23:15:26 alas i'm too lazy to write a non-cheating solution 23:15:30 Apparently the notion of getting diabetes type 2 from too much sugar is a myth? 23:15:40 the common notion is getting it from obesity, not sugar per se 23:17:04 wtf are the neighbors making noise after midnight 23:17:46 (just loud talking, but still) 23:17:58 Are they students? 23:18:11 unlikely 23:18:17 And if you're awake after midnight, why shouldn't they be? 23:18:25 But if they're being very noisy, :( 23:18:29 i'm _awake_. i'm not noisy. 23:18:39 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 23:21:16 Is it possible to become obese without noticing? 23:21:31 Looking thin but being medically obese? 23:21:33 if anyone can manage it... 23:22:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:12 Sgeo: Maybe if you invent a form of fat that contains neutronium 23:27:56 "obesity" isn't a monolithic thing. 23:30:40 sure it is, if you look like a monolith you're definitely obese 23:35:45 -!- scarf has joined. 23:36:07 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:37:39 there appears to be a general _custom_ in norway about night silence after 11 pm before ordinary weekdays. but there's no actual written law that you can point to. 23:38:42 and our house rules have no clock times in them 23:40:17 my long parenthesized comment on anagolf weirds out the layout :( 23:44:24 -!- tlewkow has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:28 -!- tlewkow has joined. 23:55:21 -!- ski has joined. 23:55:39 -!- vanila has joined.