00:02:23 <boily> public static final long day;
00:03:27 <ais523> you can't mark it "final" then not initialize it, that doesn't make sense
00:03:32 <ais523> </former Java teacher>
00:04:24 <Dulnes> Java as in the game java
00:04:48 <boily> ais523: yes you can. static {}.
00:05:00 <Dulnes> Or javascript as in OooooOo look at all these codes and bots
00:05:40 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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00:06:00 <Dulnes> Have you ever stopped what you are doing and just
00:06:21 <Dulnes> Look at an English word and say " i feel like you are a fake word "
00:06:59 <boily> the only Real English comes from fungot.
00:06:59 <fungot> boily: if it is possible i was fnord a roleplaying scenario for 10 hours 2 days :)
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00:13:06 <fungot> Dulnes: for learning scheme, or a procedure ( shift proc) where proc is the closure. environment structures may be shared, or should i just duplicate all self-referential hooks and make them links if an url is found.
00:13:32 <Dulnes> Where does it get all these random wordings
00:13:57 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
00:14:46 <boily> Dulnes: for more details about Sir Fungellot, please peruse the PDF available in the /topic ↑
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00:15:49 <Dulnes> not sif im just saying sif
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00:17:37 <Dulnes> For more http://sametwice.com/sif
00:20:15 <boily> (eeeeh... translated: interesting.)
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00:56:57 <oren> ok my exam is over phew
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01:00:55 <oren> is it just me or is all the talk about clustered/unclustered indices worthless if the DB is on solid state?
01:01:44 <oren> actually the whole C language io is sequential access which is also wrong on solid state
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01:15:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41290&oldid=41280 * BCompton * (+3) /* Command Summary */ Typos
01:26:03 <oren> designing a language based entirely on objects on a playfield, but their positions are not limited to integer grid.
01:26:22 <oren> instead to write a program you place them with your mouse
01:27:59 <oren> the basis of the data model is balls, like essentially marbles
01:28:48 <oren> and they roll across the playfield and can be caught, deflected, slowed or sped up by different objects
01:30:04 <oren> you have chutes that create marbles rolling in a given direction
01:30:12 <oren> with a given frequency
01:30:28 <oren> and you can tag marbles with a color
01:30:52 <oren> which you select with a color picker
01:31:19 <oren> the basic premise is that the language does not use any kind of text or numbers
01:31:32 <oren> (at least from the programmer's point of view)
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01:32:42 <oren> i am implementing it with allegro 5
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01:33:48 <oren> Bicyclidine your internet needs fixing
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01:53:40 <oren> ais523 your internet also needs fixing
01:57:14 <oren> did you unplug and plug back in your internet?
01:57:38 <oren> (yes, i know it's called a lan switch, but wvr)
01:59:25 <Jafet> On the off chance... did you switch your switch off and on?
02:00:44 <oren> maybe you need to buy a new internet
02:04:03 <oren> my old internet used to crash every few hours so we bought a new one and it works way better
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02:10:43 * Sgeo wonders how Internet2 is going
02:11:46 <Sgeo> A Web2 would probably be better (not to be confused with Web 2.0)
02:12:43 <elliott> internet2 is a university network thing...
02:14:24 <MDude> So, by definition ,it's incapable of going?
02:15:11 <Sgeo> University notwork thing?
02:15:25 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet2 ?
02:15:36 <elliott> I don't know what you mean by Internet2. that thing is the only thing I've ever heard called Internet2
02:15:48 <MDude> Yeah, that's Internet2.
02:16:15 <MDude> I think it makes sense to ask how a research consortium is going.
02:16:44 <Sgeo> I think I'm secretly hoping some of the technology makes its way to the public Internet?
02:16:46 <elliott> well, I don't know what the Web2 comment means, in that case.
02:17:03 <Sgeo> The Web2 comment is a wish that the current web is destroyed and a new sane web is made
02:17:40 <MDude> Maybe he wants a consortuim for testing web stuff before it gets put out on the main web, analogous to how Internet2 works?
02:18:23 <elliott> I'm blanking on what you'd want. I guess there's that Shibboleth thing?
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02:18:35 <elliott> I'm pretty sure people use that on the regular internet too
02:18:41 <Sgeo> If Internet2 is separate from and better than the Internet, Web2 is separate and better than the web
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02:20:45 <MDude> The problem here is that stuff *is* tested on the regular web, usually by browser makers trying to maximise its userbase by having exclusive features vieled as contantly-improved standards.
02:21:02 <MDude> Sgeo, could you mean Project Xanadu?
02:21:15 <Sgeo> I mean the web is horrible and want anything to replace it
02:22:09 <MDude> Project Xanadu and Gopher are both things that could be used similarly to the web in some ways.
02:24:24 <Sgeo> I think professional webdev has done funny things to my brain
02:24:42 <MDude> A network of flat bottomed boats sounds reasonable.
02:28:03 <MDude> http://xanadu.com/ This has some kind of working demo.
02:28:33 <MDude> While gopher is an actually running thing that stuff can get published in.
02:30:15 <Sgeo> <[nick redacted]> gha, figured it out by diving into the libomv code... if the password looks like an md5 hash, it won't hash it before sending it to the server
02:30:15 <Sgeo> <[nick redacted]> guess what i use as a password...... RIGHT, an md5 hash :)
02:32:18 <MDude> So libomv was made to handle both pre-hashed and un-pre-hashed passwords, but whatever it was sending them to wasn't.
02:32:32 <Sgeo> https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/master/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs#L1079
02:32:57 <Sgeo> MDude: the user of libomv doesn't make the distinction to it
02:33:18 <Sgeo> Also how do I do the thing on github to link to the specific version?
02:33:33 <MDude> I don't know what you mean by that.
02:33:46 <Bike> i think you get to it from the commit blob
02:33:59 <Sgeo> How do I get to the commit blob?
02:34:13 <Bike> right, hit the commit and hit "browse tree"
02:34:29 <Bike> https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/3b06902a27e80a32742a1b10cecf0380cbc1f979/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs voila
02:34:31 <Sgeo> https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/3b06902a27e80a32742a1b10cecf0380cbc1f979/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs#L1079
02:34:46 <Sgeo> Did it a bit differently
02:34:48 <Bike> you know that's the same though, right
02:34:53 <Sgeo> But there's a hotkey and I don't remember it
02:35:35 <Sgeo> Also you didn't link to the line. How are future logreaders supposed to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the line of the commit blob?
02:36:54 <Sgeo> Anyway, besides being a ridiculous thing to do, that should be an || probably. As-is, any 35 character password, and any password that starts with $1$, looks like MD5
02:36:58 <MDude> So is there any reason to check if it's already hashed?
02:38:03 <Sgeo> I hope they're not saying that hashing is supposed to be done client-side
02:38:08 <Sgeo> Is that what they're saying?
02:38:18 <Sgeo> That libomv isn't the only WTFy party here?
02:39:07 <MDude> Hashing at every step, until we have an internet made of hash browns.
02:39:17 <elliott> nothing wrong with doing hashing client-side if your connection to the server is encrypted
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02:40:16 <MDude> Well sending password without encryption sounds like a bad idea anyway.
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02:40:27 <Sgeo> I thought the point of hashing was in case server database is stolen?
02:40:53 <elliott> they'll get... a bunch of hashes
02:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41291&oldid=41290 * 71.184.241.244 * (-45) /* Ackermann Function */
02:41:12 <shachaf> If you do client-side hashing you'll presumably want to do server-side hashing too.
02:41:20 <shachaf> Otherwise someone who steals the hash can use it to log in.
02:41:32 <elliott> Sgeo: to be clear, if someone gets the database they can almost certainly impersonate anyone they want anyway
02:41:34 <Sgeo> Ahh, hmm. Was thinking in terms of people who get the server DB could use it to login ... but at least only to that server
02:42:00 <elliott> true, it's less secure if they manage to get a read-only SQL dump and no other access at all. so I guess if you have a very specific SQL injection attack.
02:42:17 <Sgeo> And not to random other services. Unless they rely on the same client-side hashing...
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02:42:45 <shachaf> That isn't all that specific a situation.
02:43:12 <elliott> anyway, if you can do complex things on the client side then the right thing to do is probably something like "get an account-specific salt from the server, feed the user's password and the salt into a key derivation function, get a nonce from the server (which knows the public key), and send it back signed with that key"
02:43:29 <elliott> Sgeo: you'd salt in any case
02:43:35 <MDude> Client side hashing does seem to nagate the point of hashing the passwords.
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03:23:17 <oren> what if there was a programming language where the keywords were not real words in /any/ language?
03:24:12 <oren> Oh wait i'm just describing J
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03:34:31 <FreeFull> I'm sure a lot of languages apply =P
03:36:57 <oren> hmmm... ok. what bout a language where the keywords are in the latin alphabet,
03:37:18 <oren> but are still not words in any language
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03:37:33 <oren> or at least are not all words in the same language
03:52:27 <Taneb> oren, what about Ook!
03:54:17 <oren> thats a real language its the language of monk-- AAAAAUGHH! I mean orangutans!
04:00:56 <FreeFull> Speak softly and carry a banana.
04:02:07 <FreeFull> oren: http://esolangs.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
04:02:24 <FreeFull> Although I suppose "A" qualifies as a valid word
04:03:38 <quintopia> how about a language that uses all the standard keywords that all languages use
04:03:52 <quintopia> but which the meanings of those words are shuffled each time they're used
04:03:58 <Taneb> Isn't that the empty set?
04:04:05 <quintopia> in a predictable way that requires analysis
04:04:17 <Taneb> ANyway I ought to sleep
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04:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wake]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41292&oldid=23033 * 75.92.173.83 * (+101) Distinguishing from the not esoteric lang Wake.
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06:37:03 <oren> it is amazing how different the current aesthetic is from previous ideas of what a 'futuristic' aesthetic whould llok like
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06:44:31 <oren> hwat? why yougo innsae?
06:49:19 <Dulnes> And oren its this fucking tarball its been decompressing for 6 hours
06:49:54 <oren> also for me \ is a yen sign
06:49:58 <Dulnes> Its like 70GB and like im having rlly shit spees atm
06:50:28 <oren> yes because all japanese fonts display \ as a yen sign
06:50:45 <lifthrasiir> and all korean fonts display \ as a won sign
06:50:56 <Dulnes> Then what did myndzi do
06:51:22 <lifthrasiir> he has three prosthetic limbs composed of monies
06:51:25 <oren> So for example I have "Hello, World¥n"
06:51:48 <oren> i put a unicode yen sign in to show you
06:52:06 <Dulnes> Sad face is achievable with yen signs
06:52:31 <oren> sad face is ;-;
06:52:34 <Dulnes> Isnt yen based on like idk 60000 yen is 60 US dollars?
06:52:48 <Dulnes> Not if you have eyelashes ¥_¥
06:52:55 <oren> 80 yen is one usd about last i checked
06:53:21 <Dulnes> How does the system work
06:53:39 <lifthrasiir> the history time: it is a remnant of ISO 646-KR and -JP
06:53:51 <oren> no waith i had that reversed
06:54:00 <oren> 100 yen is .83 usd
06:54:27 <Dulnes> Why is US currency so OP
06:54:28 <lifthrasiir> so a backslash can be assigned of other characters in ISO/IEC 646, and that (or a number sign?) was commonly used in place of currency sign
06:54:38 <oren> japanese programmers just learn to write their escapes with yen sign
06:54:52 <Dulnes> Well i made a table flip emoji
06:54:55 <oren> they don't use the stupid trigraphs
06:55:20 <lifthrasiir> and things stuck, we are now using Unicode and still GR renders *like* custom 646 assignments
06:55:36 <Dulnes> I just use ~ or ° for escapes
06:55:57 <lifthrasiir> Dulnes: FYI ~ is an overline in ISO/IEC 646-JP
06:56:18 <Dulnes> Although ° is more usefull because yeah ~ is what lifthrasiir said
06:56:33 <oren> it still displays up there in jp fonts, but also wavy
06:56:35 <zzo38> I just use ordinary ASCII
06:56:48 <lifthrasiir> and in most japanese IMEs a slash gives a middle dot instead
06:57:17 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: a privilege only allowed to *some* westerners :S
06:58:15 <Dulnes> i shorten end to «e» idk i dislike seeing end in there
06:58:30 <Dulnes> My hands are falling asleeo
06:58:51 <oren> untighten your wristwatch
06:59:21 <Dulnes> Actually thats a great idea? How did you know i had a wrist watch
06:59:59 <oren> qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm
07:00:17 <Dulnes> Oh remember uh i forgot the keyboard
07:00:25 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: No, anyone could use ordinary ASCII, although it cannot type all things you might want to type (actually, neither does Unicode, although it does a lot more than ASCII)
07:00:30 <Dulnes> But it was like rounded in on itself
07:00:34 <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall.
07:00:38 <Dulnes> And you could just use one hand
07:01:26 <oren> how big is the file????
07:02:01 <Dulnes> And if i wasnt running off of shiternet
07:02:12 <oren> faster to mail you an SD card
07:02:17 <Dulnes> Then it would be done by now
07:02:57 <oren> i have three 64G micro sd cards
07:03:14 <oren> they are very handy
07:03:25 <Dulnes> Why my friend sent me an entire library compressed into a tarball through an email
07:03:40 <Dulnes> I should punch him later
07:03:42 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: only if everyone understands a Latin transliteration of their native tongues.
07:04:05 <oren> right with mandarin and japanese it is ambiguous anyway
07:04:50 <oren> 神紙髪 are all kami but mean god, paper and hair
07:04:58 <Dulnes> If i joined my bot here i would have to change # to a : or something or it would just act as if you were trying to say #room
07:05:17 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: No, I meant you can still program a computer with ASCII; it doesn't mean you have to use Latin transliteration of your own languages; for those things you can still use your own character set.
07:05:30 <Dulnes> Japanese letters a 2 cool 4 school
07:05:39 <Dulnes> How big is the alphabet btw
07:06:24 <oren> ~70 hiragana ~70 katakana ~2000 chinese character of which I know ~300 of the most use ones
07:06:29 <Dulnes> > 156277271826278183681837272881*5679
07:06:37 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: well, I think an inability to reliably input { and } in ISO 646 was painful to some people in the past?
07:06:37 <zzo38> But only hiragana and katakana are alphabets
07:06:57 <oren> they are technically syllabaries
07:07:08 <Dulnes> Why do you need so many
07:07:14 <oren> but yeah kanji encode meaning not sound
07:07:32 <oren> they disambiguate things that sound the same
07:07:42 <zzo38> Well, in English we have both uppercase and lowercase; in Japanese it is hiragana and katakana, but isn't used like our uppercase/lowercase.
07:08:08 <zzo38> Kanji really does make it easier/faster to read if you are good at it though; however, to read out loud hiragana/katakana are working better.
07:08:22 <oren> 髪様、ありがとう sounds right but means "thank you, o lord Hair"
07:08:34 <Dulnes> } end { throw, catch error; } } } end } is all i need nowadays
07:08:39 <oren> which is not what you meant
07:09:22 <oren> pronounced kamisama as is 神様 which is "lord God"
07:10:01 <zzo38> Kanji makes the meaning more clearly; hiragana/katakana makes the pronunciation more clearly.
07:10:43 <oren> another example is 書く write vs 描く draw
07:10:50 <oren> thy are both kaku
07:11:19 <oren> write dog vs draw dog
07:11:32 <oren> on test this is important
07:12:17 <zzo38> Sometimes though, it is used kanji with hiragana written on top in small writing (called furigana)
07:12:28 <Dulnes> UI malfunctions are great
07:12:55 <oren> hopeflly not the one you are using to untar?
07:13:35 <Dulnes> I should just send him the biggest file ever
07:13:37 <oren> netflix is a nice program but i prefer to buy physical media and rip it
07:14:10 <Dulnes> Whats the max file size you can send through gmail?
07:14:18 <zzo38> I prefer to buy physical media and put it in the television
07:15:07 <oren> i don't own a tv anymore (other than the b/w one in the basement)
07:15:34 <oren> computer. for everything
07:15:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41293 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+1878) page creation
07:15:55 <oren> including as a phone
07:16:13 <oren> and as a radio
07:16:14 <Dulnes> Omg remember that 3d kinda like oculus rift device that you needed to use a stand for
07:16:40 <Dulnes> Cuz it was like 60 LBs amd would snap your neck with out the stand
07:16:42 <oren> the Virtual Boy?
07:17:06 <oren> there was an AVGN episode about it, it had only like 10 games
07:17:30 <Dulnes> Thats cuz it murdered every one who got it
07:17:44 <Dulnes> Also it had an atrocious red.filter on every game
07:18:05 <oren> that isn't a filter it used nothing but red leds for the screen
07:18:36 <Dulnes> I just kinda went blind
07:19:10 <oren> better than uv leds
07:19:36 <oren> i have a whole bunch that i use for glowing keyboard
07:19:46 <oren> with fluorescent paint
07:19:52 <Dulnes> oh i have a glowing key board
07:20:32 <oren> i had to make my own, so i painted all the keys and put a uv led on a "arm" above it
07:21:10 <oren> they all glow the same color, green
07:21:42 <oren> i dunno where i put that keyboard tho, its in my basement
07:21:48 <Dulnes> I love incomprehensibly bright colours
07:22:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41294&oldid=41227 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+45)
07:22:12 <Dulnes> With a neon hot pink bg
07:22:39 <Dulnes> Mixing lime and.lemon neon is awful
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07:23:46 <Dulnes> Its getting faster its gotten into the usage/cmds core
07:24:53 <MDream> I'm going to bed, but the chat as a whole will likely keep going.
07:25:21 <Dulnes> I should be heading to bed soon
07:26:01 <cluid> There's no page about langtons ant on the wiki!
07:26:07 <cluid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langton%27s_ant
07:27:36 <cluid> In 2000, Gajardo et al. showed a construction that calculates any boolean circuit using the trajectory of a single instance of Langton's ant.[2] Thus, it would be possible to simulate a Turing machine using the ant's trajectory for computation
07:27:57 <cluid> I don't get that, isn't a boolean circuit just a function from Bool^n -> Bool^m? how does that imply TC
07:28:42 <cluid> "...implies, through the simulation of one-dimensional cellular automata and Turing machines, the universality of the ant"
07:28:53 <cluid> the paper says this, I guess they get TCness buy simulating 1D CA? That seems a bit sketchy...
07:30:19 <cluid> "Since a Turingmachine can be simulated by a linear CA with quiescent state, the ant is also universal"
07:33:36 <Dulnes> Oren how much were those 64gb micro sd's
07:34:59 <Dulnes> OH cluid ive seen that ant before
07:35:10 <cluid> its pretty cool I think
07:35:20 <cluid> but the results seema bit stretched
07:35:54 <Dulnes> It seems everytime the ant crosses over a shaded part it deletes it and moves in the opposite direction?
07:35:57 <oren> like 50 cad each
07:36:43 <Dulnes> Nutella is gud on toast
07:38:11 <Dulnes> Fffffffffffffffffffffffuck no thats not nice
07:38:23 <Dulnes> Gah im done with this internet
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07:38:30 <oren> itis! 44 USD or 35 euros
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07:39:30 <Dulnes> Also "}" unexpected File encountered terminating Decompression "}"
07:39:40 <Dulnes> Im going to shoot my computer
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07:40:46 <oren> get your friend to send you physical media instead
07:40:49 <Dulnes> Im to tired for this crap
07:41:22 <Dulnes> Well i do see him this weekend so i guess
07:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41295&oldid=41294 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+13) added subleq
07:41:32 <oren> send him an email "hey dude your file isn't working, drive to my house"
07:42:12 <Dulnes> I think it was like a bash file that got in thers
07:46:07 <zzo38> What is the algorithm to transpose a 8x8 matrix of bits with eight bits on each element of the array?
07:48:52 <oren> you can swap two integers with three ^= operators so an optimized algorithm might involve that
07:49:40 <cluid> you have a matrix represented as 8 bytes?
07:51:30 <cluid> I guess the most basic way would be b1 = (a1&1) | (a2&1<<1) | (a3&1<<2) | ...
07:51:36 <cluid> operations like that foreach row
07:52:52 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/OJOi would be a start
07:53:00 <Bike> cluid: if it can do any circuit it can be Bool^n -> Bool^m for any n,m.
07:53:08 <Bike> which covers pretty well everything.
07:54:08 <int-e> But in fact it's possible to improve things a bit by using xor.
07:54:38 <int-e> (the code is old, and I've read Knuth's volume 4a in the meantime)
07:55:28 <cluid> Bike, but those are finite
07:55:33 <cluid> that doesn't imply you can turing machine
07:56:07 <zzo38> Note I have the high bit of the first byte in the upper-left corner of the matrix so that one shouldn't be moved
07:56:58 <Bike> cluid: any particular turing machine represents a computable function Int -> Int, where the second Int can be Bottom i.e. non-halting i.e. indeterminate.
07:57:12 <cluid> but Int here is unboundedly large
07:57:45 <shachaf> Bike: you can just say "partial function" hth
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08:00:30 <oren> i have an idea: lookup table of 0b01010101 -> 0x0080008000800080
08:00:59 <cluid> I think that's what int-e did
08:01:11 <oren> then you and them together as int64_t's
08:01:51 <oren> where and is a verb
08:02:50 <zzo38> It is an array and not a 64-bit integer; I suppose I could convert it although I don't know if there is a better way that can avoid it?
08:03:07 <cluid> do you want to do the transformation in place?
08:03:17 <oren> you simply do (int64_t*)c
08:03:17 <shachaf> if i could reärrange the alphabet, i'd definitely put you and them together
08:03:41 <oren> unportable but works
08:03:44 <zzo38> cluid: It doesn't matter I only need to output one byte at a time to stdout
08:07:20 <zzo38> And if it is unportable I don't want to do like that
08:07:20 <cluid> aright, why not do it the easy way?
08:07:20 <cluid> just mask off each bit one by one and shift it to the right place
08:07:20 <oren> or you can use the same lookup table but as char[8][256]
08:07:20 <Bike> ok, well, wikipedia says the boolean circuit = formal language equivalence is done with a /family/ of circuits, one for each input length. so for all n rather than for any n.
08:07:20 <zzo38> oren: OK maybe that is better
08:08:39 <cluid> i find that hard to believe
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08:11:16 <int-e> there, my 2014 version. http://sprunge.us/fOKE
08:11:46 <cluid> yikes, so few operations! That's really cool
08:13:48 <Bike> now do conway life.
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08:19:39 <oren> scrip7 to generate table:
08:19:42 <oren> MM256N>1M=0$(#M+0x80I=MI+0x7f7f7f7f7f7f7f7fI&0x8080808080808080M>1M=II~0)#
08:20:30 <oren> to generate the table of int64s
08:23:19 <oren> hmm not working...
08:23:42 <cluid> what atble is it to generate?
08:23:45 <cluid> why not write the table out in full
08:23:53 <oren> because i am lazy
08:24:12 <oren> the program can be made to write out the table into a new program
08:24:25 <cluid> yes but that seems like a bad idea
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08:24:45 <cluid> since you have long repeating number in there
08:25:01 <cluid> 7f7f7f7f7f7f7f7f and 8080808080808080 makes me question the usefulness of scrip7
08:25:10 <oren> it is a 64bit integer
08:25:35 <int-e> . o O ( git commit -a -m 'teachings of the master (TAoCP, Vol.4a)' )
08:25:38 <oren> 0x80808080808080
08:25:51 <cluid> why not generate it
08:26:32 <cluid> scarf, if you are not busy and would like to talk about it can I ask you a bit about rule 110 in #esoteric-chat
08:27:58 <cluid> you might not want to say it publically/logged etc?
08:28:26 <scarf> well, it depends on whether there's private information involved
08:28:31 <scarf> and if there is, we'd better use PM
08:28:33 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523.
08:28:50 <cluid> ok its not private just wondered your opinion of it
08:29:04 <ais523> I like the rule 110 proof
08:29:45 <ais523> did you want more of an opinion than that?
08:30:07 <cluid> yeah I was wondering, do you think that rule 110 is turing complete?
08:31:18 <ais523> it's been proven turing complete
08:32:21 <cluid> oh im sorry, I though you were matthew cook
08:32:23 <cluid> that's why I asked you
08:32:43 <ais523> I don't think Matthew Cook comes here
08:33:06 <oren> ok the problem was caused by bug in my scrip7 implementation
08:33:29 <cluid> I wonder what cook thinks about the proof
08:37:00 <cluid> http://esoteric.codes/ i found an interview
08:38:25 <oerjan> afaik cook and wolfram used the word "universal" rather than turing-complete?
08:38:45 <cluid> I just noticed Langtons Ant is said to be TC by reduction to CA
08:38:53 <cluid> and I find this kind of hard to believe
08:38:58 <oerjan> and perhaps _neither_ term has a completely consensus definition.
08:40:12 <oerjan> the problem with CAs is that they have no intrinsic notion of when computation halts.
08:40:36 <oerjan> and _might_ have infinite data even once you've decided that.
08:41:49 <oerjan> both of which make details of what it means to be TC ambiguous
08:42:04 <cluid> I don't really see halting a problem?
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08:42:13 <cluid> you could encode it in any number of ways
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08:42:29 <cluid> e.g. the string starting from cell 23 becomes 1011101 or whatever
08:42:59 <oerjan> yeah. but you have to choose that encoding _before_ you can ask whether the whole system is TC, i think.
08:43:20 <cluid> the infinite setup aspect seems a serious problem to me, especially wrt. langtons ant
08:43:37 <oerjan> which is unlike what happens with systems with finite, intrinsically well-defined start and end points.
08:43:52 <cluid> I see what you mean
08:46:09 <cluid> I wonder if some 1D CAs are 'CA-complete' like NP-complete problems can be encoded in each other
08:46:21 <oerjan> and the additional problem is that for finite systems, you typically allow _any_ terminating computation for encoding/decoding, but if you do that for infinite systems like CAs you can get _obviously_ trivial system to be defined as TC.
08:46:49 <oerjan> e.g. imagine a CA where a cell is 1 if it, or any neighbor, was 1 in the previous step.
08:47:24 <shachaf> How were functions declared in K&R C?
08:47:41 <oerjan> and that make your decoding be "halts when this turing machine M halts in less steps than the number of live cells the CA has reached"
08:48:06 <oerjan> (that's a terminating check, for each generation, if you start with a single live cell in the first, say)
08:48:13 <oren> int foo(x,y,z) int x; char *y; float y; { ... }
08:48:41 <oerjan> so then _everything_ about the TC-ness except the infiniteness is in the final termination check and decoding.
08:48:47 <oren> they were declared like int foo(x,y,z);
08:48:49 <shachaf> It looks like maybe the answer is "functions weren't declared, and argument types weren't checked".
08:48:52 <cluid> interesting oerjan
08:48:53 <oren> no type checking
08:49:07 <shachaf> Do you have a reference for that?
08:49:23 <oren> I have K&R as pdf
08:50:16 <oerjan> and of course no one seriously would consider that CA to be TC, so if we are going to talk about TC (or "universal" CAs) we need to agree on some limit for how complicated the setup/termination check/decoding can be.
08:50:31 <oren> hmmm looks like there weren't declarations at all
08:51:23 <oerjan> and that was iiuc the essential problem in the old internet discussion about ais523's 2,3 result, but it somewhat applies to the rule 110 one as well.
08:52:00 <cluid> anything computable should be ok
08:52:03 <oerjan> (the rule 110 setup is complicated, but periodical. the 2,3 setup is not periodical.)
08:52:15 <oren> you do it like this int foo()
08:52:24 <oerjan> cluid: no, that's precisely what you cannot do if you want to exclude that trivial CA.
08:52:32 <oren> and the function acts like a variadic
08:52:38 <cluid> chaining some computable/total function with X and getting a TC function implies X is TC
08:52:49 <oren> (in terms of argumant conversions)
08:53:01 <elliott> cluid: do you believe that the CA oerjan described is TC, then?
08:53:08 <oren> all ints smaller than int are converted to int
08:53:10 <elliott> ("imagine a CA where a cell is 1 if it, or any neighbor, was 1 in the previous step")
08:53:23 <oren> all floats are converted to double
08:53:39 <elliott> two sub-TC systems combined can be TC
08:53:57 <elliott> sure, see oerjan's proof :p
08:54:11 <elliott> that trivial CA + terminating decoding function gives TCness
08:54:18 <int-e> "combined" is not exactly a mathematical term
08:54:41 <oren> shachaf: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html
08:57:24 <oren> if you scroll down 2/3 of the page it has an example of how things were declared pre C90
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08:57:56 <cluid> I do not think that a program that runs for infinite time computing every step of a turing machine is sub turing
08:58:26 <cluid> I have said that infinite setup is a problem
08:58:45 <oerjan> cluid: the _setup_ isn't infinite here. you just start with a single live cell.
08:58:59 <oerjan> and at _each_ generation, neither is the check/decoding.
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08:59:54 <oerjan> this isn't a clearcut thing, but a slippery slope one.
09:00:04 <dts> what isnt?
09:00:08 <cluid> yeah I agree this gets messy
09:00:39 <cluid> Has anyone sseen the langtons ant TC claim?
09:01:00 <cluid> I am worried that they overloook the infinite steup and just go "well we can encode CAs so we're TC"
09:01:41 <cluid> (it would have to also include the two sided infinite setup to match with cooks proof, right?)
09:02:15 <oerjan> there _are_ CAs that seem less dubious than rule 110 though.
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09:02:52 <oerjan> those in which all but finite cells start 0, and the halting could even do a cleanup.
09:03:13 -!- ais523 has quit.
09:03:20 <oerjan> (any turing machine can be turned into a CA in a simple way, by encoding cells and tape head pretty directly.)
09:04:24 <oerjan> btw ais523's made his 2,3 construction have a _very_ simple _termination_ check, just whether the TM ever goes left of the starting point.
09:04:39 <cluid> what is the 2,3 construction?
09:05:04 <oerjan> sheesh, he keeps losing connection.
09:05:18 <oerjan> confession: i've never read the whole of it.
09:06:16 <oerjan> but it's for a 2,3 turing machine, and it requires a setup that is infinite, and non-periodical, but still limited in complexity (quadratic i think)
09:06:34 <cluid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine oh this guy!
09:06:42 <oerjan> (2,3) refers to number of colors and number of internal states.
09:06:54 <cluid> On 24 October 2007, it was announced by Wolfram Research (without the approval of the judging committee [4]) that Alex Smith, a student in electronics and computing at the University of Birmingham (UK), proved that the (2,3) Turing machine is universal
09:08:44 <int-e> Hmm, as far as I can see, the Langton's ant universality construction also relies on filling space with some regular pattern. I don't like.
09:10:05 <int-e> (they show that one can evaluate boolean circuits using an ant, then use that to simulate the evolution of some 1D cellular automaton, and conclude universality. "They" being Gajardo et al.)
09:11:15 <AndoDaan> depending on the 1d automaton they chose of course.
09:11:48 <oerjan> yeah but if that's what it sounds like to me, they'll have infinite setup issues even if the chosen automaton doesn't.
09:11:55 <int-e> I don't like those proof that require a starting state of infinite size. I don't like the rule 110 proof either.
09:14:04 <quintopia> oerjan: do you recall the TM encoding the 2,3 UTM used?
09:14:11 <oerjan> at least you can grow ether, so it _might_ not be entirely impossible to remove the infinite setup. apparently there's at least one rule 110 glider gun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcIx2ujtQQ
09:15:31 <quintopia> oerjan: in your opinion what is the simplest universal system of any form?
09:15:36 <oerjan> if you could find the right glider guns, some of which need to themselves be leftward moving, you _might_ be able to make it all work in a zeros environment.
09:15:49 <int-e> They do present a cute criterion for decision problems, namely they ask "does the ant ever pass through the point (x,y)?"
09:16:10 <oerjan> quintopia: huh. i like SK combinators, also the :()^ underload subset i found.
09:16:43 <oerjan> it's really hard to compare "simple" down at that level.
09:17:02 <quintopia> which is why i asked for an opinion not a definite answer :)
09:17:32 <oerjan> AndoDaan: but _which_ tag system, they're a class...
09:17:45 <cluid> tag systems are very odd, I dont understan them well
09:17:59 <int-e> (Of course one source of trouble is that Langton's ant is aperiodic, which rules out a number of simple encoding ideas.)
09:18:11 <AndoDaan> me either, but i like 'em. oerjan: the bit cycle one.
09:18:22 <quintopia> i wonder whether human brains are extendable to universality
09:18:51 <cluid> I don't think the mathematical concepts like universailty make much sense when applies to real life objects
09:19:22 <int-e> and of course there's the unsolved problem whether from a finite configuration, the ant will always escape to infinity on a diagonal highway, and even whether there is more than one kind of highway.
09:19:59 <AndoDaan> i tried to crack that one years ago int-e, didn't go well.
09:20:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41296&oldid=41255 * Orenwatson * (+358) added matrix transposer (and updated interpreter code fixing bug)
09:20:19 <quintopia> for instance, i'm perfectly willing to bestow the computer i'm writing this on the property of universality, as i know that the limitations that prevent it are straightforward, theoretically speaking, to overcome
09:20:19 <int-e> (at least I think those are both unsolved.)
09:20:52 <cluid> I disagree with you quintopia but that's ok
09:21:01 <AndoDaan> int-e, yeah, i looked into it a little back when /r/dailyprogramming had a challenge for it.
09:21:26 <quintopia> cluid: agreeing to disagree is a poor sort of argument. no one learns that way.
09:22:03 <elliott> you avoid having to argue with the kind of people who say obnoxious things like that though
09:22:34 <quintopia> true. but i'd rather they became less obnoxious, so i have to try at least a tiny bit
09:22:45 <elliott> I think you're misunderstanding who the obnoxious one is here :p
09:22:54 <cluid> I prefer to keep clear separation between mathematical abstractions and the physical systems they model
09:23:16 <oren> universality only appies to formal logical systems. A real computer makes errors due to bugs and hardware problems
09:23:49 <oren> specifically the finite size of the hardware
09:24:18 <quintopia> elliott: so you don't think my computer, if bestowed with the capacity to continuously add more memory, access to an infinite matter source, and an interface to make use of that memory would be universal?
09:24:29 <AndoDaan> and don't forget the heat death of the universe. Some things are computable, but not for real objects.
09:24:40 <oren> it has a finite address space
09:25:00 <cluid> this is not a good discussion ^^
09:25:08 <int-e> oren: add a network device ... oh, already done!
09:25:32 <elliott> quintopia: I think I have the ability to opt out of this argument that you'd rather deny me :p
09:25:34 <oren> finite amount of matter in the universe
09:25:46 <oren> finite speed of light
09:26:15 <quintopia> elliott: ok. but then you're being obnoxious too.
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09:26:25 -!- elliott has kicked quintopia you're annoying me.
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09:26:38 <int-e> finite speed of light just means you get to wait longer ;-)
09:26:44 <cluid> well let's just agree to disagree and move on :)
09:26:51 <cluid> hopefully we can get along that way
09:27:02 <cluid> sorry about bringin upa controversial topic
09:27:21 <oren> argumentclinic.mp4
09:27:30 <quintopia> nah. it's okay. you're not as obnoxious as someone who calls someone obnoxious but doesn't say why
09:27:31 <int-e> Actually I usually find time to be the limiting factor before I start running out of address space these days.
09:28:16 <int-e> Note, I'm not saying "running out of memory". That still happens a lot.
09:28:43 * oren with only a 200GB hdd
09:29:35 <cluid> I have an idea for a language
09:29:40 <cluid> would like comments on it if anyone will input:
09:30:00 <cluid> so there are two parts to a program in this
09:30:08 <cluid> first you define some CFG rules, e.g.
09:30:21 <cluid> S --> 00 | 01 | 1 S S
09:30:28 <cluid> and then you define rewrite/transformation rules like
09:30:57 <cluid> 1 01 x:S y:S z:S = 1 1 x z 1 y z
09:31:07 <cluid> and you run it on an input string, it performs the rewrites
09:31:19 <cluid> this program implemented binary combinator logicc
09:31:27 <cluid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic
09:32:06 <oren> is the alphabet limited to 0 and 2
09:32:20 <cluid> no you can use any strings
09:33:33 <oren> sounds good. you'll need a way to distinguish variables from values in the rules
09:33:47 <oren> and the transformations
09:33:55 <cluid> oh yeah, that's true
09:36:26 <oren> but once that is done you'll have a way to define arbitrary functional turing tarpits and push-dwon automata
09:36:31 <cluid> I suppose this isn't an esolang
09:36:43 <oren> it is a meta-esolang
09:37:03 <cluid> i can't claim to invent it, it is used informally in lots of places
09:37:22 <oren> you can claim to have standardized it
09:38:27 <oren> and formalized it
09:39:37 <oren> maybe you can simply have an alphabet spec at the top
09:40:08 <oren> and then chars not in alphabet are vars
09:40:43 <cluid> S --> '00' | '01' | '1' S S coud work
09:41:00 <oren> that works too
09:41:04 <cluid> then you have to escape: \\ and \'
09:41:21 <oren> not if you use ''
09:42:27 <oren> but \ allows \n or whatever
09:42:40 <cluid> the grammars can be ambiguous
09:42:50 <cluid> so some interpreters might run the programs differently
09:43:07 <oren> define a standard way to biguate them
09:43:15 <cluid> id rather leave it unspecified
09:43:23 <cluid> so any order is fine, e.g. one implementation might choose randomly
09:44:04 <oren> biguate : to make something not ambiguous
09:45:13 <shachaf> and yet you use unidecode instead of icode
09:45:13 <oerjan> thing is, am- is not a negative prefix here hth
09:45:26 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ambo#Latin
09:45:41 <shachaf> oh, wait, one of the nicks starting with an o here wasn't oerjan
09:46:14 <oerjan> shachaf: shall i biguate by kicking oren twh
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09:46:36 <shachaf> so you'd need to tribiguate hth
09:46:39 -!- oren has changed nick to Oren.
09:46:42 <oerjan> well you're used to him
09:46:46 <shachaf> sigh, i messed that one up
09:46:51 <Oren> here i'm capitalizes
09:47:06 <oerjan> Oren: i don't think that helps with tab completion
09:47:11 <Oren> see now it is biguated
09:47:16 <shachaf> it was a reading thing, not a tab completion thing hth
09:47:29 <shachaf> normally i'd notice because of the length difference, but you use /me
09:47:52 <Oren> my O is biguated and thus my name is biguated
09:47:56 * int-e fails to see how that hurts.
09:48:09 <cluid> Any ideas for a name for this language
09:48:14 <cluid> also is it worth implementing?
09:48:27 <cluid> I guesss it migth be better to try to implement things with it first
09:48:54 <Oren> cluidanian standard prefix specification language
09:48:56 <quintopia> call it Not Actually A Language (bonus points if you use that phrase to replace the word language anywhere you talk about it)
09:49:18 <Oren> lol yes do that
09:50:16 <int-e> Not Actually A NAAL?
09:50:35 <int-e> err, I guess that should be Not Actually A NAAN?
09:51:06 <int-e> Which elegantly avoids an unfortunate connotation.
09:51:23 <Oren> meh recursive acronyms are cliche
09:51:38 <Oren> is cliche pronounced cleetch?
09:51:43 <shachaf> "At 12,978,189 digits long, it would take the best part of two and a half months to write out by hand."
09:51:50 <shachaf> what is the best part of two and a half months?
09:52:40 <Oren> actully no, the sleep
09:53:16 <Oren> i think they meant what _andodaan said
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09:56:12 <_AndoDaan> Because I read 1 and half month instead of 2 and a half
09:56:58 <Oren> oh yeah. whould be 72 days about
09:57:29 <cluid> What languages should I try implementing in this CFG based language?
09:58:28 <int-e> hmm. are they calculating with 2 digits per second, and no sleep at all?
09:58:38 <int-e> > 12978189/86400/2
10:00:12 <Oren> that isn't implable in this langugae
10:00:46 <Oren> new word: implable : easier way to say implementable
10:01:16 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you feel about "habited" twh
10:01:18 <cluid> _AndoDaan, oh i can't do brainfuck
10:01:25 <oerjan> <Oren> is cliche pronounced cleetch? <-- no hth
10:01:51 <Oren> oerjan: i guess it must be french then
10:02:02 <oerjan> (hint: it's also spelled cliché)
10:02:03 <cluid> although maybe it could be done by takingt he program code and tacking on an array like ++.[>-<++]+|0010101010`110
10:02:08 <cluid> where the ` marks the cell we're on
10:02:49 <int-e> cluid: you need to mark the program position, too, I think
10:02:52 <Oren> and a symbol for the ip
10:03:36 <oerjan> shachaf: at least that isn't splitting a morpheme.
10:03:58 <shachaf> mighty morpheme power rangers
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10:04:57 <cluid> actually this seems to work
10:06:04 <Oren> might morphin power rangers = kyoryuu sentai zyurenjaa
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10:13:30 <Oren> juurenjaa, juurenjaa, densetsu no senshitachi yo juurenjaa juurenjaa toki wo kakeru kibou, kyouryuu sentai juurenjaa!!
10:13:41 <Oren> that is the theme song
10:14:34 <Oren> the name means Dinosaur Squad Beast Rangers
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10:15:28 <Oren> i know a lot of completely useless trivia huh
10:16:14 <Oren> i should spend more time studying my actual courses
10:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41297&oldid=41293 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+84) clarified about W^X and corrected link
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10:44:19 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages
10:47:55 <cluid> this is an excellent page
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10:48:28 <oerjan> check out the quine, deadfish and truth-machine pages too
10:48:40 <oerjan> (i may be forgetting some)
10:49:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41298&oldid=41297 * 213.162.68.150 * (+52) /* References */ (style)
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11:12:10 <oerjan> <ais523> most people don't follow ads at all <-- i think i followed an ad not by accident once. of course i didn't actually _buy_ anything.
11:12:36 <oerjan> oh i guess i sometimes follow webcomic ads, but i'm not sure that counts.
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11:22:43 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn weird
11:27:41 <fizzie> oerjan: do you buy anything after following them?
11:28:28 <fizzie> and it probably doesn't count either
11:29:23 <cluid> http://xn13.com/ what does this program do
11:29:59 <cluid> i see what it does
11:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41299&oldid=39776 * Oerjan * (+176) Doubt it
11:33:40 * oerjan thinks someone is wiki binging
11:34:30 <cluid> :()^ is turing complete?
11:35:01 <cluid> that is very surprising
11:35:25 <cluid> I was wondering what minimal 'stack' ops are TC
11:35:29 <oerjan> i was surprised too. you can see the progression of refinements, at almost every step my initial hunch was "this cannot be TC"
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11:39:43 <cluid> it reminds me of one combinator basis
11:39:51 <cluid> do you think it corresponds to any one combinator basis?
11:40:02 <cluid> i see you can encode SK into underload by a simple translation
11:41:27 <oerjan> well it seems you can only get combinators that act on a stack representation
11:41:41 <oerjan> in particular you don't have application, only composition i think
11:42:58 <oerjan> you don't have any :()^ program corresponding to Kf because that would be replacing the whole stack with a known one
11:43:15 <oerjan> and you cannot do that in underload at all
11:43:48 <oerjan> so whatever it corresponds to as combinators, it's not a basis for _all_ combinators
11:44:32 <oerjan> this is thinking of underload programs as functions from stacks to stacks
11:44:33 <cluid> so I wonder if B (composition) and M (self application) are turing complete?
11:44:45 <cluid> and if that correponds to this underload subset at all
11:47:42 <oerjan> i've been looking a bit at unlambda subsets recently, and self application came up (as `d`cc) but there's no primitive b function
11:48:11 <oerjan> (also the subset i looked at, avoiding s and k, wasn't TC alas)
11:48:48 <oerjan> MM becomes itself, of course...
11:48:57 <oerjan> (non-halting, essentially)
11:49:05 <oerjan> i assume you mean M x = x x
11:50:20 <oerjan> cluid: note that the :()^ subset has the property that you can never create _new_ elements, only unpack and duplicate old ones
11:52:11 <oerjan> incidentally as part of that unlambda investigation, i found that `d`cc representation as an alternative to ``sii for M
11:52:33 <oerjan> of course that uses continuations so isn't an ordinary combinator
11:53:45 <oerjan> hm what _would_ M be in underload, assuming a stack is a nested list of churc pairs
11:54:23 <oerjan> hm seems tricky, for the same reason as `Kf
11:55:07 <oerjan> you cannot really duplicate all the stack before running any part of it, and that part might ruin the rest
11:55:48 <cluid> The way I know to show SK turing complete is by eliminating lambda
11:56:07 <cluid> I wonder how well this applies to other sets of combinators
11:57:23 <oerjan> it applies to some of them but not all? S and K (and I) are important because they're exactly the combinators you need for eliminating lambdas so if you do that you essentially are expressing S and K in other ones.
11:58:16 <cluid> oh okay, so its basicaly useless for anything except SK: In some cases you should just construct S and K - in other cases... well I wonder about those
11:58:20 <cluid> those seem like the interesting ones
11:59:03 <oerjan> i recall reading that there was a version that avoided having K
11:59:22 <oerjan> and just "approximated" it enough to work for church numerals
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12:00:13 <int-e> there's the CL_I thing with S,B,C,I as basis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#CLK_versus_CLI_calculus
12:00:37 * oerjan was just about to link that
12:01:16 <int-e> I could make a point and change the topic to mention the twins oerjan and int-e ;-)
12:02:04 <int-e> But perhaps it's best to leave it at this bit of weak meta-meta-humor.
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12:04:15 <oerjan> hm in fact :()^ may be closer to that than to SK, because :()^ has no way to remove elements without running them - getting that to work was the final trick...
12:04:47 <oerjan> but B and M also belong to that subset.
12:04:51 <int-e> BM is awkward to reason about
12:05:03 <int-e> M has such a crude way of duplication.
12:09:31 <cluid> http://www.complex-systems.com/pdf/19-3-5.pdf
12:09:39 <cluid> this bitcopying OISC cites esolang wiki
12:10:01 <cluid> http://mazonka.com/bbj/
12:10:44 <oerjan> mazonka used to be active on the wiki
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12:11:16 <int-e> oh duh. M B = B B.
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12:11:39 <oerjan> int-e: um are we working in parallel here
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12:13:44 <cluid> http://mazonka.com/wiki/index.php his wiki is limes too!
12:17:04 <int-e> B M B B = B B B B B B
12:17:23 <boily> cluid: the limes are somehow a default.
12:17:36 <boily> fungot: what should we replace the Defaulimes with?
12:17:36 <fungot> boily: that's the point. there was no elaboration, no doubt
12:17:48 <boily> aah. clear, simple, standard and expectable.
12:19:30 <cluid> theseare different limes
12:19:42 <cluid> well they are the same limes, but its a differnet picture of them
12:21:27 <cluid> I had an idea to search for metacalls in 1D CA: try running the CA backwards
12:21:51 <cluid> this is probably slower than just running it forwards until you find a loop but oh well
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12:25:29 <cluid> http://www.complex-systems.com/pdf/15-1-1.pdf
12:25:36 <cluid> pg 13 shows the gliders
12:26:15 <cluid> I guess trying to collide gliders together and see what they do could be productive
12:33:34 <cluid> I've been looking through http://www.complex-systems.com/archives.html for interesting papers, but not many seem very interesting
12:51:13 <fizzie> AIUI, what we have is called a trilime.
12:52:21 <fizzie> we've tried to replace it with a synthetic version but it was no good
12:54:18 <J_Arcane> OMG, these are amazing. https://www.behance.net/Gallery/ALT1977-WE-ARE-NOT-TIME-TRAVELERS/545221
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13:09:41 <cluid> im having trouble finding loops in rule 30 1D CA
13:09:50 <cluid> in particular, two distinct loops
13:09:56 <cluid> what ca should i look at instead?
13:10:09 <cluid> (i can find single loops, but never two loops that dont meet)
13:11:18 <oerjan> these are not the limes you are looking for
13:26:03 <J_Arcane> ahahaha. they actually did it.
13:27:17 <int-e> what's with the font sizes....
13:29:47 <int-e> (apparently they rely on javascript to select sensible font sizes but have not bothered to make sure that their CSS contains sensible defaults.)
13:30:41 <int-e> leading to ... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/devuan.png
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13:59:05 <int-e> meh is there any systematic order in the polyominoes thing?
13:59:40 <int-e> I can see that the horizontal ones come last.
14:04:35 <mitchs_> int-e, the order is according to the search tree that i describe
14:05:51 <int-e> oh. didn't read the blurb, sorry.
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14:06:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3d 8h 47m 52s ago: i used the word in the en:you = de:man sense
14:06:32 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 2d 13h 27m 13s ago: (1) is your mirror of The Esoteric File Archive still active? (2) has it been updated with the fact the archive itself has moved to github?
14:07:00 <mroman> @tell oerjan (1) it is still active. (2) no
14:09:25 <mitchs_> int-e, i thought about ordering them according to the tuple of sorted points if we align the bottom left square with the origin, but i couldn't find a way to generate those in order with a recursive function, it would have required storing them all and sorting at the end
14:10:52 <mitchs_> but that version (or a different one) could be added if it's interesting for different ways of generating them
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14:15:09 <oerjan> it wasn't loading for me when i tried the other day, but working now
14:17:03 <int-e> mitchs_: one slightly irritating feature is that you only consider two neighbours of the initial square.
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14:18:13 <int-e> (otherwise the first polyominoes would be the square, vertical domino, L tiromino, sidesways T tetromino, + pentomino, with a visible pattern.)
14:21:44 <mroman> oerjan: my vServer has been down for the last 3 days
14:23:50 <cluid> areioccc code out yet
14:27:51 <mitchs_> int-e, that's because the first square is fixed as the bottom left square
14:29:10 <int-e> mitchs_: but it isn't once you turn left above the first square or down to the right of the first square.
14:30:33 <mitchs_> if we consider the first square as being on the origin, then any squares that have y<0 or (y=0 and x<0) are unreachable
14:33:01 <int-e> no. you'd never that the "##"\" #" triomino that way.
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14:38:38 <int-e> how about this one, visiting square in their specified order without backtracking (n=18) http://sprunge.us/YYUR
14:39:56 <mitchs_> 8 should not have been put there because it's at y=-1
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14:40:35 <int-e> it's put there as a neighbour of 3
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14:41:57 <mitchs_> i didn't define reachable in my blurb, but because that square would invalidate the assumption that the first square is the bottom left one, it is unreachable
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14:43:41 <mitchs_> there's a more detailed explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyomino#Algorithms_for_enumeration_of_fixed_polyominoes
14:44:02 <mitchs_> redelmeijer's paper is here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012365X81800155 but i think it leaves the search order as an implementation detail
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15:05:25 <Taneb> I've just had a bizarre idea for a programming language but I am not sure whether it is esoteric or not
15:06:23 <Taneb> The idea behind it is the set of instructions form a group
15:07:05 <Taneb> So you can undo anything
15:07:11 <Taneb> Unfortunately, this makes it Useless
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15:09:10 <Taneb> But I kind of want to see how fancy it can get
15:10:32 <Jafet> Reversible computing isn't that esoteric
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15:11:03 <Taneb> This particular one may be
15:11:14 <Taneb> I'm not veeeery familiar with the area
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15:26:31 <Taneb> Also I just found out about QuickSpec which looks kind of cool
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16:34:28 <cluid> I had an idea for a website
16:34:36 <cluid> it could be on github if github pages allows javascript?
16:34:55 <cluid> The idea is to have a javascript implementation of every esolang, so people can easily try running programs in it
16:35:07 <cluid> and it would have a drop down menu with lots of example code to try
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16:38:07 <cluid> http://p-nand-q.com/index.html this guy has a lot of esolangs
16:45:09 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_an_artificial_language_designed_to_communicate_instructions_to_a_machine,_particularly_a_computer.
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17:14:45 <cluid> Taneb, im interested in reversible programming
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17:15:03 <Taneb> cluid, I'll write up this language tonight or tomorrow
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18:08:07 <int-e> there, let's see by how much henkma will beat me this time
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18:39:42 <int-e> mitchs_: So actually the search order looks quite sane to me, after having spent some time actually implementing it.
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19:56:50 <Dulnes> https://i.imgur.com/7PdwO5r.jpg
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20:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pikalang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41300 * Rdebath * (+809) /* Does this count as an implementation? */ new section
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21:01:47 <Oren> what is programming?
21:07:07 <fizzie> int-e: I did a straightforward Burlesque of your dc Dominosa, and it turned out to be 80B. It very likely could shorten to something less than my trit-based 78B, but I doubt at least I could get it anywhere near the dc size.
21:07:25 <mitchs_> i'm pleasantly surprised to see some interest in the problem already, i thought it would be a less popular one
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21:36:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41301&oldid=41289 * BCompton * (+1166) example program
21:38:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41302&oldid=40713 * SuperJedi224 * (+123)
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22:00:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41303&oldid=41301 * BCompton * (+19)
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22:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41304&oldid=41303 * SuperJedi224 * (+23)
22:35:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41305&oldid=41304 * SuperJedi224 * (-1)
22:44:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41306&oldid=41305 * SuperJedi224 * (+418) /* Example Program */
22:45:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41307&oldid=41306 * SuperJedi224 * (-52)
22:46:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41308&oldid=41307 * SuperJedi224 * (+90)
22:46:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41309&oldid=41308 * BCompton * (+2)
22:57:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41310 * SuperJedi224 * (+43) Created page with "Well done on the example program, BCompton."
22:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41311&oldid=41310 * SuperJedi224 * (+98)
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23:02:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41312&oldid=41311 * BCompton * (+271)
23:03:53 <Sgeo> Racket documentation > Python documentation
23:04:14 <Sgeo> Racket documentation, as I understand it, is not particularly likely to link to identifiers of the same name in the wrong module
23:04:24 <Sgeo> Python docs actually do. In the standard library.
23:05:14 <Bike> personally i prefer behaviorism to most "cognitive" psychological methodologies
23:06:18 <boily> Sgeo: outrageous! do you have any examples?
23:06:54 <boily> Bike: all those sub-branches of psychological stuff confuses me. I know there's a difference, but sometimes I fail to grasp them.
23:07:13 <boily> s/there's a/there are/
23:07:27 <Bike> they're not subfields, just differnet approaches.
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23:22:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41313&oldid=41312 * BCompton * (+288)
23:24:33 <Dulnes> The sound of human bones undergoing liquifaction is great
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23:27:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41314&oldid=41313 * BCompton * (+92)
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23:41:55 <Sgeo> boily: https://docs.python.org/2/library/cookielib.html#cookielib.Cookie
23:42:15 <Sgeo> Click that Cookie link. Note that it links to the Cookie module, not the cookielib.Cookie
23:42:30 <Sgeo> Also, that expectation was wrong
23:42:38 <Sgeo> But that's a separate issue
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23:46:47 <Sgeo> The Python 3 version points to the right place at least
23:47:03 <Sgeo> But this wouldn't have occured at all under Racket's Scribble
23:47:34 <Sgeo> And it wouldn't have caused me way too much annoyance in Haskell, with what would presumably be a clear type error
23:47:46 <Sgeo> Instead of complaining that Cookie doesn't have a domain attribute
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