00:02:23 public static final long day; 00:03:27 you can't mark it "final" then not initialize it, that doesn't make sense 00:03:30 Hm? 00:03:32 00:03:42 Oh mai 00:03:46 Fancy 00:04:24 Java as in the game java 00:04:48 ais523: yes you can. static {}. 00:05:00 Or javascript as in OooooOo look at all these codes and bots 00:05:34 ')' 00:05:40 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:05:49 -!- dianne has joined. 00:06:00 Have you ever stopped what you are doing and just 00:06:21 Look at an English word and say " i feel like you are a fake word " 00:06:59 the only Real English comes from fungot. 00:06:59 boily: if it is possible i was fnord a roleplaying scenario for 10 hours 2 days :) 00:10:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:59 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 00:13:05 what is fungot 00:13:06 Dulnes: for learning scheme, or a procedure ( shift proc) where proc is the closure. environment structures may be shared, or should i just duplicate all self-referential hooks and make them links if an url is found. 00:13:32 Where does it get all these random wordings 00:13:57 ^source 00:13:57 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 00:14:46 Dulnes: for more details about Sir Fungellot, please peruse the PDF available in the /topic ↑ 00:14:55 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 00:15:10 What language is this 00:15:28 Sif 00:15:49 not sif im just saying sif 00:16:05 it's befunge 98. 00:16:15 -!- applybot has quit. 00:16:16 Sift 00:17:04 Welp 00:17:37 For more http://sametwice.com/sif 00:17:37 Sif* 00:19:58 ah bin. 00:20:15 (eeeeh... translated: interesting.) 00:26:11 Gonna go sleep 00:26:18 Gbif 00:26:24 Gnight 00:28:59 -!- GeekDude has joined. 00:33:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LACONIC CHICKEN). 00:48:23 -!- supay has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:49:19 -!- nyuszika7h has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:51:16 -!- supay has joined. 00:52:11 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:52:18 -!- conehead has joined. 00:52:42 -!- nyuszika7h has joined. 00:56:53 -!- oren has joined. 00:56:57 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:56:57 ok my exam is over phew 00:57:33 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 01:00:55 is it just me or is all the talk about clustered/unclustered indices worthless if the DB is on solid state? 01:01:44 actually the whole C language io is sequential access which is also wrong on solid state 01:06:52 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:08:01 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 01:13:57 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 01:15:13 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41290&oldid=41280 * BCompton * (+3) /* Command Summary */ Typos 01:26:03 designing a language based entirely on objects on a playfield, but their positions are not limited to integer grid. 01:26:22 instead to write a program you place them with your mouse 01:26:58 neat 01:27:59 the basis of the data model is balls, like essentially marbles 01:28:48 and they roll across the playfield and can be caught, deflected, slowed or sped up by different objects 01:30:04 you have chutes that create marbles rolling in a given direction 01:30:12 with a given frequency 01:30:28 and you can tag marbles with a color 01:30:41 (in RRGGBB) 01:30:52 which you select with a color picker 01:31:19 the basic premise is that the language does not use any kind of text or numbers 01:31:32 (at least from the programmer's point of view) 01:31:47 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:32:42 i am implementing it with allegro 5 01:33:24 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 01:33:48 Bicyclidine your internet needs fixing 01:46:44 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:46:49 -!- scarf has joined. 01:49:15 -!- scarf has quit (Client Quit). 01:49:28 -!- scarf has joined. 01:51:37 -!- scarf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:51:52 -!- scarf has joined. 01:52:20 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523. 01:53:40 ais523 your internet also needs fixing 01:53:51 I know :-( 01:57:14 did you unplug and plug back in your internet? 01:57:38 (yes, i know it's called a lan switch, but wvr) 01:58:54 doesn't help 01:59:00 also it's a router 01:59:25 On the off chance... did you switch your switch off and on? 02:00:44 maybe you need to buy a new internet 02:04:03 my old internet used to crash every few hours so we bought a new one and it works way better 02:07:51 -!- oren has quit (Quit: eating dinner). 02:10:43 * Sgeo wonders how Internet2 is going 02:11:46 A Web2 would probably be better (not to be confused with Web 2.0) 02:12:43 internet2 is a university network thing... 02:14:24 So, by definition ,it's incapable of going? 02:15:11 University notwork thing? 02:15:25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet2 ? 02:15:36 I don't know what you mean by Internet2. that thing is the only thing I've ever heard called Internet2 02:15:48 Yeah, that's Internet2. 02:16:15 I think it makes sense to ask how a research consortium is going. 02:16:44 I think I'm secretly hoping some of the technology makes its way to the public Internet? 02:16:46 well, I don't know what the Web2 comment means, in that case. 02:17:03 The Web2 comment is a wish that the current web is destroyed and a new sane web is made 02:17:40 Maybe he wants a consortuim for testing web stuff before it gets put out on the main web, analogous to how Internet2 works? 02:18:23 I'm blanking on what you'd want. I guess there's that Shibboleth thing? 02:18:26 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 02:18:35 I'm pretty sure people use that on the regular internet too 02:18:41 If Internet2 is separate from and better than the Internet, Web2 is separate and better than the web 02:20:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:20:45 The problem here is that stuff *is* tested on the regular web, usually by browser makers trying to maximise its userbase by having exclusive features vieled as contantly-improved standards. 02:21:02 Sgeo, could you mean Project Xanadu? 02:21:10 Or maybe Gopher. 02:21:15 I mean the web is horrible and want anything to replace it 02:22:09 Project Xanadu and Gopher are both things that could be used similarly to the web in some ways. 02:23:24 Project Scowadu 02:24:24 I think professional webdev has done funny things to my brain 02:24:42 A network of flat bottomed boats sounds reasonable. 02:28:03 http://xanadu.com/ This has some kind of working demo. 02:28:33 While gopher is an actually running thing that stuff can get published in. 02:29:55 wat 02:30:15 <[nick redacted]> gha, figured it out by diving into the libomv code... if the password looks like an md5 hash, it won't hash it before sending it to the server 02:30:15 <[nick redacted]> guess what i use as a password...... RIGHT, an md5 hash :) 02:32:18 So libomv was made to handle both pre-hashed and un-pre-hashed passwords, but whatever it was sending them to wasn't. 02:32:32 https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/master/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs#L1079 02:32:57 MDude: the user of libomv doesn't make the distinction to it 02:33:18 Also how do I do the thing on github to link to the specific version? 02:33:33 I don't know what you mean by that. 02:33:46 i think you get to it from the commit blob 02:33:59 How do I get to the commit blob? 02:34:13 right, hit the commit and hit "browse tree" 02:34:29 https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/3b06902a27e80a32742a1b10cecf0380cbc1f979/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs voila 02:34:31 https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse/blob/3b06902a27e80a32742a1b10cecf0380cbc1f979/OpenMetaverse/Login.cs#L1079 02:34:38 ty 02:34:46 Did it a bit differently 02:34:48 you know that's the same though, right 02:34:53 But there's a hotkey and I don't remember it 02:35:35 Also you didn't link to the line. How are future logreaders supposed to put 2 and 2 together to figure out the line of the commit blob? 02:36:54 Anyway, besides being a ridiculous thing to do, that should be an || probably. As-is, any 35 character password, and any password that starts with $1$, looks like MD5 02:36:58 So is there any reason to check if it's already hashed? 02:38:03 I hope they're not saying that hashing is supposed to be done client-side 02:38:08 Is that what they're saying? 02:38:18 That libomv isn't the only WTFy party here? 02:39:07 Hashing at every step, until we have an internet made of hash browns. 02:39:17 nothing wrong with doing hashing client-side if your connection to the server is encrypted 02:39:24 -!- shikhout has joined. 02:39:39 (afaik) 02:40:13 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:40:16 Well sending password without encryption sounds like a bad idea anyway. 02:40:24 yes, right. 02:40:25 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 02:40:27 I thought the point of hashing was in case server database is stolen? 02:40:44 yes 02:40:53 they'll get... a bunch of hashes 02:40:57 in either case 02:40:58 [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41291&oldid=41290 * 71.184.241.244 * (-45) /* Ackermann Function */ 02:41:12 If you do client-side hashing you'll presumably want to do server-side hashing too. 02:41:20 Otherwise someone who steals the hash can use it to log in. 02:41:32 Sgeo: to be clear, if someone gets the database they can almost certainly impersonate anyone they want anyway 02:41:34 Ahh, hmm. Was thinking in terms of people who get the server DB could use it to login ... but at least only to that server 02:42:00 true, it's less secure if they manage to get a read-only SQL dump and no other access at all. so I guess if you have a very specific SQL injection attack. 02:42:17 And not to random other services. Unless they rely on the same client-side hashing... 02:42:27 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:42:45 That isn't all that specific a situation. 02:43:12 anyway, if you can do complex things on the client side then the right thing to do is probably something like "get an account-specific salt from the server, feed the user's password and the salt into a key derivation function, get a nonce from the server (which knows the public key), and send it back signed with that key" 02:43:29 Sgeo: you'd salt in any case 02:43:35 Client side hashing does seem to nagate the point of hashing the passwords. 02:46:18 -!- oren has joined. 02:47:58 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:50:55 hi 02:53:16 hi 02:54:43 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:54:49 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 03:12:54 hi 03:13:41 hi 03:22:47 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:23:17 what if there was a programming language where the keywords were not real words in /any/ language? 03:24:12 Oh wait i'm just describing J 03:24:15 nvm 03:26:12 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:26:17 -!- scarf has joined. 03:26:38 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:33:37 oren: brainfuck 03:33:44 yah? 03:33:52 Befunge 03:33:56 yah? 03:33:58 Malborge 03:34:18 *Malbolge 03:34:31 I'm sure a lot of languages apply =P 03:34:43 Also APL and K 03:36:57 hmmm... ok. what bout a language where the keywords are in the latin alphabet, 03:37:18 but are still not words in any language 03:37:28 -!- CADD has joined. 03:37:33 or at least are not all words in the same language 03:37:39 hi cadd 03:52:27 oren, what about Ook! 03:54:17 thats a real language its the language of monk-- AAAAAUGHH! I mean orangutans! 03:56:44 monk++ 04:00:56 Speak softly and carry a banana. 04:02:07 oren: http://esolangs.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! 04:02:24 Although I suppose "A" qualifies as a valid word 04:03:38 how about a language that uses all the standard keywords that all languages use 04:03:52 but which the meanings of those words are shuffled each time they're used 04:03:58 Isn't that the empty set? 04:04:05 in a predictable way that requires analysis 04:04:16 Taneb: s/all/most/ 04:04:17 ANyway I ought to sleep 04:08:50 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 04:14:16 -!- Froox has changed nick to Frooxius. 04:21:43 -!- scarf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:21:52 -!- scarf has joined. 04:22:57 [wiki] [[Wake]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41292&oldid=23033 * 75.92.173.83 * (+101) Distinguishing from the not esoteric lang Wake. 04:30:03 -!- mitchs_ has joined. 04:31:18 -!- mitchs has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:37:16 -!- adu has joined. 04:44:28 -!- Dulnes has joined. 04:45:32 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:45:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:48:48 Cross Valves 04:49:26 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 04:52:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:01:18 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:35:08 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:35:12 -!- scarf has joined. 06:37:03 it is amazing how different the current aesthetic is from previous ideas of what a 'futuristic' aesthetic whould llok like 06:41:35 * Dulnes goes insane 06:43:12 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:43:45 -!- tromp has joined. 06:44:31 hwat? why yougo innsae? 06:48:34 _|__|_ \o\ 06:48:34 | 06:48:34 >\ 06:48:43 H? 06:48:54 Did i do a funny 06:49:19 And oren its this fucking tarball its been decompressing for 6 hours 06:49:24 Im very much done 06:49:32 holy whit 06:49:38 how the hell? 06:49:54 also for me \ is a yen sign 06:49:58 Its like 70GB and like im having rlly shit spees atm 06:50:05 It is? 06:50:12 \ 06:50:21 Thats a weird sign 06:50:28 yes because all japanese fonts display \ as a yen sign 06:50:43 Thats nice 06:50:45 and all korean fonts display \ as a won sign 06:50:56 Then what did myndzi do 06:51:22 he has three prosthetic limbs composed of monies 06:51:25 So for example I have "Hello, World¥n" 06:51:48 ¥_¥ 06:51:48 i put a unicode yen sign in to show you 06:52:06 Sad face is achievable with yen signs 06:52:31 sad face is ;-; 06:52:34 Isnt yen based on like idk 60000 yen is 60 US dollars? 06:52:48 Not if you have eyelashes ¥_¥ 06:52:55 80 yen is one usd about last i checked 06:53:21 How does the system work 06:53:39 the history time: it is a remnant of ISO 646-KR and -JP 06:53:51 no waith i had that reversed 06:53:52 ISO/IEC* 06:54:00 100 yen is .83 usd 06:54:05 Omfg 06:54:27 Why is US currency so OP 06:54:28 so a backslash can be assigned of other characters in ISO/IEC 646, and that (or a number sign?) was commonly used in place of currency sign 06:54:35 s/number/dollar/ 06:54:38 japanese programmers just learn to write their escapes with yen sign 06:54:52 Well i made a table flip emoji 06:54:55 they don't use the stupid trigraphs 06:55:04 Stupid 06:55:20 and things stuck, we are now using Unicode and still GR renders *like* custom 646 assignments 06:55:25 while in fact they aren't 06:55:36 I just use ~ or ° for escapes 06:55:57 Dulnes: FYI ~ is an overline in ISO/IEC 646-JP 06:56:04 ah, that was JA 06:56:07 anyway 06:56:18 Although ° is more usefull because yeah ~ is what lifthrasiir said 06:56:30 No one uses the ° 06:56:33 it still displays up there in jp fonts, but also wavy 06:56:35 I just use ordinary ASCII 06:56:48 and in most japanese IMEs a slash gives a middle dot instead 06:56:57 end end end end end 06:57:04 ・yup 06:57:10 Seeing people do that 06:57:17 zzo38: a privilege only allowed to *some* westerners :S 06:58:15 i shorten end to «e» idk i dislike seeing end in there 06:58:30 My hands are falling asleeo 06:58:35 Asleep* 06:58:51 untighten your wristwatch 06:58:58 Pssht 06:59:21 Actually thats a great idea? How did you know i had a wrist watch 06:59:27 ¿¿¿ 06:59:42 i wear one 06:59:47 Qwerty or poiuy 06:59:59 qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm 07:00:04 Leaves 07:00:17 Oh remember uh i forgot the keyboard 07:00:25 lifthrasiir: No, anyone could use ordinary ASCII, although it cannot type all things you might want to type (actually, neither does Unicode, although it does a lot more than ASCII) 07:00:30 But it was like rounded in on itself 07:00:34 They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall. 07:00:38 And you could just use one hand 07:00:58 shachaf: brilliant 07:01:10 48% done 07:01:26 how big is the file???? 07:01:34 70GB 07:02:01 And if i wasnt running off of shiternet 07:02:12 faster to mail you an SD card 07:02:17 Then it would be done by now 07:02:20 or two 07:02:26 5 07:02:57 i have three 64G micro sd cards 07:03:14 they are very handy 07:03:25 Why my friend sent me an entire library compressed into a tarball through an email 07:03:29 Is beyond me 07:03:40 I should punch him later 07:03:42 zzo38: only if everyone understands a Latin transliteration of their native tongues. 07:04:05 right with mandarin and japanese it is ambiguous anyway 07:04:50 神紙髪 are all kami but mean god, paper and hair 07:04:58 If i joined my bot here i would have to change # to a : or something or it would just act as if you were trying to say #room 07:05:17 lifthrasiir: No, I meant you can still program a computer with ASCII; it doesn't mean you have to use Latin transliteration of your own languages; for those things you can still use your own character set. 07:05:30 Japanese letters a 2 cool 4 school 07:05:39 How big is the alphabet btw 07:06:24 ~70 hiragana ~70 katakana ~2000 chinese character of which I know ~300 of the most use ones 07:06:29 > 156277271826278183681837272881*5679 07:06:30 887498626701433805129153872691199 07:06:35 Indeed 07:06:37 zzo38: well, I think an inability to reliably input { and } in ISO 646 was painful to some people in the past? 07:06:37 But only hiragana and katakana are alphabets 07:06:57 they are technically syllabaries 07:07:08 Why do you need so many 07:07:14 but yeah kanji encode meaning not sound 07:07:15 '-' 07:07:32 they disambiguate things that sound the same 07:07:42 Well, in English we have both uppercase and lowercase; in Japanese it is hiragana and katakana, but isn't used like our uppercase/lowercase. 07:08:08 Kanji really does make it easier/faster to read if you are good at it though; however, to read out loud hiragana/katakana are working better. 07:08:22 髪様、ありがとう sounds right but means "thank you, o lord Hair" 07:08:34 } end { throw, catch error; } } } end } is all i need nowadays 07:08:39 which is not what you meant 07:08:52 O lord hair 07:09:12 Lordy lordy 07:09:22 pronounced kamisama as is 神様 which is "lord God" 07:09:44 * Dulnes claps hands 07:09:50 Japanese lessons 07:10:01 Kanji makes the meaning more clearly; hiragana/katakana makes the pronunciation more clearly. 07:10:43 another example is 書く write vs 描く draw 07:10:50 thy are both kaku 07:11:19 write dog vs draw dog 07:11:32 on test this is important 07:11:49 U guys havin fun 07:12:17 Sometimes though, it is used kanji with hiragana written on top in small writing (called furigana) 07:12:28 UI malfunctions are great 07:12:38 in what app? 07:12:49 Netflix 07:12:55 hopeflly not the one you are using to untar? 07:13:03 No that 07:13:08 Would kill me 07:13:35 I should just send him the biggest file ever 07:13:37 netflix is a nice program but i prefer to buy physical media and rip it 07:13:40 As a joke 07:14:10 Whats the max file size you can send through gmail? 07:14:18 I prefer to buy physical media and put it in the television 07:15:07 i don't own a tv anymore (other than the b/w one in the basement) 07:15:22 Then what do you use? 07:15:31 A computron 07:15:34 computer. for everything 07:15:48 [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41293 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+1878) page creation 07:15:55 including as a phone 07:16:13 and as a radio 07:16:14 Omg remember that 3d kinda like oculus rift device that you needed to use a stand for 07:16:40 Cuz it was like 60 LBs amd would snap your neck with out the stand 07:16:42 the Virtual Boy? 07:17:06 there was an AVGN episode about it, it had only like 10 games 07:17:30 Thats cuz it murdered every one who got it 07:17:44 Also it had an atrocious red.filter on every game 07:18:01 Those were the days 07:18:05 that isn't a filter it used nothing but red leds for the screen 07:18:13 like whyyyyy 07:18:24 Really? 07:18:29 apparently 07:18:36 I just kinda went blind 07:18:43 All i see is red oren 07:19:10 better than uv leds 07:19:15 Pls no 07:19:36 i have a whole bunch that i use for glowing keyboard 07:19:46 with fluorescent paint 07:19:52 oh i have a glowing key board 07:19:57 Pretty cool 07:20:27 I had it colour coded 07:20:32 i had to make my own, so i painted all the keys and put a uv led on a "arm" above it 07:21:04 lol 07:21:10 they all glow the same color, green 07:21:16 Amaze 07:21:42 i dunno where i put that keyboard tho, its in my basement 07:21:48 I love incomprehensibly bright colours 07:22:00 Like neon Violet 07:22:02 [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41294&oldid=41227 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+45) 07:22:12 With a neon hot pink bg 07:22:24 Much eye burning 07:22:34 such doge.jpg 07:22:39 Mixing lime and.lemon neon is awful 07:23:12 67% 07:23:25 -!- cluid has joined. 07:23:26 hi 07:23:27 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 07:23:32 Hi 07:23:46 Its getting faster its gotten into the usage/cmds core 07:23:52 Which is pretty small 07:24:16 Hi gurls 07:24:53 I'm going to bed, but the chat as a whole will likely keep going. 07:25:11 Night 07:25:21 I should be heading to bed soon 07:26:01 There's no page about langtons ant on the wiki! 07:26:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langton%27s_ant 07:26:25 Goodnesz 07:27:36 In 2000, Gajardo et al. showed a construction that calculates any boolean circuit using the trajectory of a single instance of Langton's ant.[2] Thus, it would be possible to simulate a Turing machine using the ant's trajectory for computation 07:27:57 I don't get that, isn't a boolean circuit just a function from Bool^n -> Bool^m? how does that imply TC 07:28:42 "...implies, through the simulation of one-dimensional cellular automata and Turing machines, the universality of the ant" 07:28:53 the paper says this, I guess they get TCness buy simulating 1D CA? That seems a bit sketchy... 07:30:19 "Since a Turingmachine can be simulated by a linear CA with quiescent state, the ant is also universal" 07:33:36 Oren how much were those 64gb micro sd's 07:34:59 OH cluid ive seen that ant before 07:35:06 Also wtf does it do 07:35:10 its pretty cool I think 07:35:20 but the results seema bit stretched 07:35:54 It seems everytime the ant crosses over a shaded part it deletes it and moves in the opposite direction? 07:35:57 like 50 cad each 07:36:23 Convert 07:36:33 Also 07:36:43 Nutella is gud on toast 07:37:24 99.8% 07:37:30 Almoooost 07:38:11 Fffffffffffffffffffffffuck no thats not nice 07:38:23 Gah im done with this internet 07:38:27 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:38:30 itis! 44 USD or 35 euros 07:38:43 44 thats good nuf 07:39:23 -!- Patashu has quit (Client Quit). 07:39:30 Also "}" unexpected File encountered terminating Decompression "}" 07:39:40 Im going to shoot my computer 07:40:13 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:40:46 get your friend to send you physical media instead 07:40:49 Im to tired for this crap 07:41:22 Well i do see him this weekend so i guess 07:41:29 Gnight anyways 07:41:31 [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41295&oldid=41294 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+13) added subleq 07:41:32 send him an email "hey dude your file isn't working, drive to my house" 07:42:09 good night 07:42:12 I think it was like a bash file that got in thers 07:42:21 * Dulnes poofs 07:46:07 What is the algorithm to transpose a 8x8 matrix of bits with eight bits on each element of the array? 07:47:11 hmmm 07:48:52 you can swap two integers with three ^= operators so an optimized algorithm might involve that 07:49:40 you have a matrix represented as 8 bytes? 07:51:12 Yes. 07:51:30 I guess the most basic way would be b1 = (a1&1) | (a2&1<<1) | (a3&1<<2) | ... 07:51:36 operations like that foreach row 07:52:52 http://sprunge.us/OJOi would be a start 07:53:00 cluid: if it can do any circuit it can be Bool^n -> Bool^m for any n,m. 07:53:08 which covers pretty well everything. 07:53:12 woah cool 07:54:08 But in fact it's possible to improve things a bit by using xor. 07:54:38 (the code is old, and I've read Knuth's volume 4a in the meantime) 07:55:28 Bike, but those are finite 07:55:33 that doesn't imply you can turing machine 07:56:07 Note I have the high bit of the first byte in the upper-left corner of the matrix so that one shouldn't be moved 07:56:58 cluid: any particular turing machine represents a computable function Int -> Int, where the second Int can be Bottom i.e. non-halting i.e. indeterminate. 07:57:12 but Int here is unboundedly large 07:57:45 Bike: you can just say "partial function" hth 07:57:57 i could. 07:58:35 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 08:00:30 i have an idea: lookup table of 0b01010101 -> 0x0080008000800080 08:00:59 I think that's what int-e did 08:01:11 then you and them together as int64_t's 08:01:51 where and is a verb 08:02:50 It is an array and not a 64-bit integer; I suppose I could convert it although I don't know if there is a better way that can avoid it? 08:03:07 do you want to do the transformation in place? 08:03:17 you simply do (int64_t*)c 08:03:17 if i could reärrange the alphabet, i'd definitely put you and them together 08:03:41 unportable but works 08:03:44 cluid: It doesn't matter I only need to output one byte at a time to stdout 08:07:20 And if it is unportable I don't want to do like that 08:07:20 aright, why not do it the easy way? 08:07:20 just mask off each bit one by one and shift it to the right place 08:07:20 or you can use the same lookup table but as char[8][256] 08:07:20 ok, well, wikipedia says the boolean circuit = formal language equivalence is done with a /family/ of circuits, one for each input length. so for all n rather than for any n. 08:07:20 oren: OK maybe that is better 08:08:39 i find that hard to believe 08:08:39 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:10:56 -!- shachaf has joined. 08:11:16 there, my 2014 version. http://sprunge.us/fOKE 08:11:46 yikes, so few operations! That's really cool 08:13:48 now do conway life. 08:19:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:19:39 scrip7 to generate table: 08:19:42 MM256N>1M=0$(#M+0x80I=MI+0x7f7f7f7f7f7f7f7fI&0x8080808080808080M>1M=II~0)# 08:19:59 oren??? 08:20:14 that is code 08:20:19 looks bad 08:20:30 to generate the table of int64s 08:23:19 hmm not working... 08:23:42 what atble is it to generate? 08:23:45 why not write the table out in full 08:23:53 because i am lazy 08:24:12 the program can be made to write out the table into a new program 08:24:25 yes but that seems like a bad idea 08:24:31 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:24:33 why? 08:24:41 -!- scarf has joined. 08:24:45 since you have long repeating number in there 08:25:01 7f7f7f7f7f7f7f7f and 8080808080808080 makes me question the usefulness of scrip7 08:25:10 it is a 64bit integer 08:25:23 literal 08:25:35 . o O ( git commit -a -m 'teachings of the master (TAoCP, Vol.4a)' ) 08:25:38 0x80808080808080 08:25:51 why not generate it 08:26:32 scarf, if you are not busy and would like to talk about it can I ask you a bit about rule 110 in #esoteric-chat 08:27:44 why not here? 08:27:58 you might not want to say it publically/logged etc? 08:28:26 well, it depends on whether there's private information involved 08:28:31 and if there is, we'd better use PM 08:28:33 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523. 08:28:50 ok its not private just wondered your opinion of it 08:29:04 I like the rule 110 proof 08:29:45 did you want more of an opinion than that? 08:30:07 yeah I was wondering, do you think that rule 110 is turing complete? 08:31:18 it's been proven turing complete 08:31:23 by matthew cook 08:32:21 oh im sorry, I though you were matthew cook 08:32:23 that's why I asked you 08:32:27 ah, no 08:32:29 I'm Alex Smith 08:32:43 I don't think Matthew Cook comes here 08:33:06 ok the problem was caused by bug in my scrip7 implementation 08:33:29 I wonder what cook thinks about the proof 08:37:00 http://esoteric.codes/ i found an interview 08:38:25 afaik cook and wolfram used the word "universal" rather than turing-complete? 08:38:45 I just noticed Langtons Ant is said to be TC by reduction to CA 08:38:53 and I find this kind of hard to believe 08:38:58 and perhaps _neither_ term has a completely consensus definition. 08:40:12 the problem with CAs is that they have no intrinsic notion of when computation halts. 08:40:36 and _might_ have infinite data even once you've decided that. 08:41:49 both of which make details of what it means to be TC ambiguous 08:42:04 I don't really see halting a problem? 08:42:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:42:13 you could encode it in any number of ways 08:42:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:42:29 e.g. the string starting from cell 23 becomes 1011101 or whatever 08:42:59 yeah. but you have to choose that encoding _before_ you can ask whether the whole system is TC, i think. 08:43:20 the infinite setup aspect seems a serious problem to me, especially wrt. langtons ant 08:43:37 which is unlike what happens with systems with finite, intrinsically well-defined start and end points. 08:43:52 I see what you mean 08:46:09 I wonder if some 1D CAs are 'CA-complete' like NP-complete problems can be encoded in each other 08:46:21 and the additional problem is that for finite systems, you typically allow _any_ terminating computation for encoding/decoding, but if you do that for infinite systems like CAs you can get _obviously_ trivial system to be defined as TC. 08:46:49 e.g. imagine a CA where a cell is 1 if it, or any neighbor, was 1 in the previous step. 08:47:24 How were functions declared in K&R C? 08:47:41 and that make your decoding be "halts when this turing machine M halts in less steps than the number of live cells the CA has reached" 08:48:06 (that's a terminating check, for each generation, if you start with a single live cell in the first, say) 08:48:13 int foo(x,y,z) int x; char *y; float y; { ... } 08:48:23 That's not a declaration. 08:48:41 so then _everything_ about the TC-ness except the infiniteness is in the final termination check and decoding. 08:48:47 they were declared like int foo(x,y,z); 08:48:49 It looks like maybe the answer is "functions weren't declared, and argument types weren't checked". 08:48:52 interesting oerjan 08:48:53 no type checking 08:49:07 Do you have a reference for that? 08:49:23 I have K&R as pdf 08:50:16 and of course no one seriously would consider that CA to be TC, so if we are going to talk about TC (or "universal" CAs) we need to agree on some limit for how complicated the setup/termination check/decoding can be. 08:50:31 hmmm looks like there weren't declarations at all 08:50:43 no wait 08:51:23 and that was iiuc the essential problem in the old internet discussion about ais523's 2,3 result, but it somewhat applies to the rule 110 one as well. 08:52:00 anything computable should be ok 08:52:03 (the rule 110 setup is complicated, but periodical. the 2,3 setup is not periodical.) 08:52:05 aha! 08:52:15 you do it like this int foo() 08:52:24 cluid: no, that's precisely what you cannot do if you want to exclude that trivial CA. 08:52:32 and the function acts like a variadic 08:52:38 chaining some computable/total function with X and getting a TC function implies X is TC 08:52:49 (in terms of argumant conversions) 08:53:01 cluid: do you believe that the CA oerjan described is TC, then? 08:53:08 all ints smaller than int are converted to int 08:53:10 ("imagine a CA where a cell is 1 if it, or any neighbor, was 1 in the previous step") 08:53:23 all floats are converted to double 08:53:39 two sub-TC systems combined can be TC 08:53:40 really? 08:53:57 sure, see oerjan's proof :p 08:54:11 that trivial CA + terminating decoding function gives TCness 08:54:18 "combined" is not exactly a mathematical term 08:54:31 yeah. 08:54:41 shachaf: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html 08:57:24 if you scroll down 2/3 of the page it has an example of how things were declared pre C90 08:57:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:57:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:57:56 -!- dts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:57:56 I do not think that a program that runs for infinite time computing every step of a turing machine is sub turing 08:58:26 I have said that infinite setup is a problem 08:58:45 cluid: the _setup_ isn't infinite here. you just start with a single live cell. 08:58:59 and at _each_ generation, neither is the check/decoding. 08:59:16 -!- dts has joined. 08:59:25 ok 08:59:54 this isn't a clearcut thing, but a slippery slope one. 09:00:04 what isnt? 09:00:08 yeah I agree this gets messy 09:00:39 Has anyone sseen the langtons ant TC claim? 09:01:00 I am worried that they overloook the infinite steup and just go "well we can encode CAs so we're TC" 09:01:41 (it would have to also include the two sided infinite setup to match with cooks proof, right?) 09:02:15 there _are_ CAs that seem less dubious than rule 110 though. 09:02:46 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 09:02:52 those in which all but finite cells start 0, and the halting could even do a cleanup. 09:03:13 -!- ais523 has quit. 09:03:20 (any turing machine can be turned into a CA in a simple way, by encoding cells and tape head pretty directly.) 09:04:24 btw ais523's made his 2,3 construction have a _very_ simple _termination_ check, just whether the TM ever goes left of the starting point. 09:04:30 iirc 09:04:39 what is the 2,3 construction? 09:04:41 *-'s 09:05:04 sheesh, he keeps losing connection. 09:05:18 confession: i've never read the whole of it. 09:06:16 but it's for a 2,3 turing machine, and it requires a setup that is infinite, and non-periodical, but still limited in complexity (quadratic i think) 09:06:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine oh this guy! 09:06:42 (2,3) refers to number of colors and number of internal states. 09:06:44 yep 09:06:54 On 24 October 2007, it was announced by Wolfram Research (without the approval of the judging committee [4]) that Alex Smith, a student in electronics and computing at the University of Birmingham (UK), proved that the (2,3) Turing machine is universal 09:08:30 wow, didn't know that. 09:08:44 Hmm, as far as I can see, the Langton's ant universality construction also relies on filling space with some regular pattern. I don't like. 09:10:05 (they show that one can evaluate boolean circuits using an ant, then use that to simulate the evolution of some 1D cellular automaton, and conclude universality. "They" being Gajardo et al.) 09:10:45 isn't that enough? 09:11:15 depending on the 1d automaton they chose of course. 09:11:48 yeah but if that's what it sounds like to me, they'll have infinite setup issues even if the chosen automaton doesn't. 09:11:55 I don't like those proof that require a starting state of infinite size. I don't like the rule 110 proof either. 09:14:04 oerjan: do you recall the TM encoding the 2,3 UTM used? 09:14:11 at least you can grow ether, so it _might_ not be entirely impossible to remove the infinite setup. apparently there's at least one rule 110 glider gun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcIx2ujtQQ 09:14:24 quintopia: no. 09:15:31 oerjan: in your opinion what is the simplest universal system of any form? 09:15:36 if you could find the right glider guns, some of which need to themselves be leftward moving, you _might_ be able to make it all work in a zeros environment. 09:15:49 They do present a cute criterion for decision problems, namely they ask "does the ant ever pass through the point (x,y)?" 09:16:10 quintopia: huh. i like SK combinators, also the :()^ underload subset i found. 09:16:43 it's really hard to compare "simple" down at that level. 09:16:51 my vote is for tag systems. 09:17:02 which is why i asked for an opinion not a definite answer :) 09:17:32 AndoDaan: but _which_ tag system, they're a class... 09:17:45 tag systems are very odd, I dont understan them well 09:17:59 (Of course one source of trouble is that Langton's ant is aperiodic, which rules out a number of simple encoding ideas.) 09:18:11 me either, but i like 'em. oerjan: the bit cycle one. 09:18:22 i wonder whether human brains are extendable to universality 09:18:51 I don't think the mathematical concepts like universailty make much sense when applies to real life objects 09:19:03 sure they do 09:19:10 oh 09:19:22 and of course there's the unsolved problem whether from a finite configuration, the ant will always escape to infinity on a diagonal highway, and even whether there is more than one kind of highway. 09:19:59 i tried to crack that one years ago int-e, didn't go well. 09:20:04 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41296&oldid=41255 * Orenwatson * (+358) added matrix transposer (and updated interpreter code fixing bug) 09:20:19 for instance, i'm perfectly willing to bestow the computer i'm writing this on the property of universality, as i know that the limitations that prevent it are straightforward, theoretically speaking, to overcome 09:20:19 (at least I think those are both unsolved.) 09:20:52 I disagree with you quintopia but that's ok 09:21:01 int-e, yeah, i looked into it a little back when /r/dailyprogramming had a challenge for it. 09:21:26 cluid: agreeing to disagree is a poor sort of argument. no one learns that way. 09:22:03 you avoid having to argue with the kind of people who say obnoxious things like that though 09:22:34 true. but i'd rather they became less obnoxious, so i have to try at least a tiny bit 09:22:45 I think you're misunderstanding who the obnoxious one is here :p 09:22:54 I prefer to keep clear separation between mathematical abstractions and the physical systems they model 09:23:16 universality only appies to formal logical systems. A real computer makes errors due to bugs and hardware problems 09:23:49 specifically the finite size of the hardware 09:24:18 elliott: so you don't think my computer, if bestowed with the capacity to continuously add more memory, access to an infinite matter source, and an interface to make use of that memory would be universal? 09:24:29 and don't forget the heat death of the universe. Some things are computable, but not for real objects. 09:24:40 it has a finite address space 09:24:45 64 bit 09:24:50 overcomable 09:25:00 this is not a good discussion ^^ 09:25:08 oren: add a network device ... oh, already done! 09:25:32 quintopia: I think I have the ability to opt out of this argument that you'd rather deny me :p 09:25:34 finite amount of matter in the universe 09:25:46 finite speed of light 09:26:15 elliott: ok. but then you're being obnoxious too. 09:26:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 09:26:25 -!- elliott has kicked quintopia you're annoying me. 09:26:27 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 09:26:35 -!- quintopia has joined. 09:26:38 finite speed of light just means you get to wait longer ;-) 09:26:44 well let's just agree to disagree and move on :) 09:26:51 hopefully we can get along that way 09:27:02 sorry about bringin upa controversial topic 09:27:21 argumentclinic.mp4 09:27:30 nah. it's okay. you're not as obnoxious as someone who calls someone obnoxious but doesn't say why 09:27:31 Actually I usually find time to be the limiting factor before I start running out of address space these days. 09:27:57 lucky you 09:28:16 Note, I'm not saying "running out of memory". That still happens a lot. 09:28:17 * oren with 2GB RAM 09:28:43 * oren with only a 200GB hdd 09:29:35 I have an idea for a language 09:29:40 would like comments on it if anyone will input: 09:29:41 ? 09:29:45 sure 09:30:00 so there are two parts to a program in this 09:30:08 first you define some CFG rules, e.g. 09:30:21 S --> 00 | 01 | 1 S S 09:30:28 and then you define rewrite/transformation rules like 09:30:45 1 00 x:S y:S = x 09:30:57 1 01 x:S y:S z:S = 1 1 x z 1 y z 09:31:07 and you run it on an input string, it performs the rewrites 09:31:19 this program implemented binary combinator logicc 09:31:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic 09:32:06 is the alphabet limited to 0 and 2 09:32:10 *1 09:32:20 no you can use any strings 09:33:33 sounds good. you'll need a way to distinguish variables from values in the rules 09:33:47 and the transformations 09:33:55 oh yeah, that's true 09:36:26 but once that is done you'll have a way to define arbitrary functional turing tarpits and push-dwon automata 09:36:31 I suppose this isn't an esolang 09:36:43 it is a meta-esolang 09:36:43 yeah 09:36:46 haha 09:36:49 its quite neat 09:37:03 i can't claim to invent it, it is used informally in lots of places 09:37:22 you can claim to have standardized it 09:38:27 and formalized it 09:39:37 maybe you can simply have an alphabet spec at the top 09:40:08 and then chars not in alphabet are vars 09:40:43 S --> '00' | '01' | '1' S S coud work 09:41:00 that works too 09:41:04 then you have to escape: \\ and \' 09:41:21 not if you use '' 09:42:01 for ' 09:42:27 but \ allows \n or whatever 09:42:40 the grammars can be ambiguous 09:42:50 so some interpreters might run the programs differently 09:42:53 that's ok 09:43:07 define a standard way to biguate them 09:43:15 id rather leave it unspecified 09:43:23 so any order is fine, e.g. one implementation might choose randomly 09:43:34 * oerjan blinks at "biguate" 09:44:04 biguate : to make something not ambiguous 09:45:13 and yet you use unidecode instead of icode 09:45:13 thing is, am- is not a negative prefix here hth 09:45:26 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ambo#Latin 09:45:41 oh, wait, one of the nicks starting with an o here wasn't oerjan 09:46:01 shocking 09:46:14 shachaf: shall i biguate by kicking oren twh 09:46:24 -!- _AndoDaan has joined. 09:46:30 olsner is still here 09:46:34 oh 09:46:36 so you'd need to tribiguate hth 09:46:39 -!- oren has changed nick to Oren. 09:46:40 er 09:46:41 triguate 09:46:42 well you're used to him 09:46:46 sigh, i messed that one up 09:46:51 here i'm capitalizes 09:47:06 Oren: i don't think that helps with tab completion 09:47:11 see now it is biguated 09:47:16 it was a reading thing, not a tab completion thing hth 09:47:29 normally i'd notice because of the length difference, but you use /me 09:47:52 my O is biguated and thus my name is biguated 09:47:56 * int-e fails to see how that hurts. 09:48:09 Any ideas for a name for this language 09:48:14 also is it worth implementing? 09:48:27 I guesss it migth be better to try to implement things with it first 09:48:54 cluidanian standard prefix specification language 09:48:56 call it Not Actually A Language (bonus points if you use that phrase to replace the word language anywhere you talk about it) 09:49:18 lol yes do that 09:49:34 haha 09:50:16 Not Actually A NAAL? 09:50:35 err, I guess that should be Not Actually A NAAN? 09:51:06 Which elegantly avoids an unfortunate connotation. 09:51:23 meh recursive acronyms are cliche 09:51:38 is cliche pronounced cleetch? 09:51:43 "At 12,978,189 digits long, it would take the best part of two and a half months to write out by hand." 09:51:50 what is the best part of two and a half months? 09:52:04 the sex 09:52:15 <_AndoDaan> 44 days 09:52:40 actully no, the sleep 09:53:16 i think they meant what _andodaan said 09:54:15 <_AndoDaan> I'm wrong though. 09:54:23 why> 09:54:25 ? 09:54:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:55:36 hi 09:56:12 <_AndoDaan> Because I read 1 and half month instead of 2 and a half 09:56:58 oh yeah. whould be 72 days about 09:57:29 What languages should I try implementing in this CFG based language? 09:58:28 hmm. are they calculating with 2 digits per second, and no sleep at all? 09:58:38 > 12978189/86400/2 09:58:40 75.10526041666667 09:59:30 <_AndoDaan> BrainFuck. Always BrainFuck. 10:00:12 that isn't implable in this langugae 10:00:46 new word: implable : easier way to say implementable 10:01:08 ? 10:01:16 oerjan: how do you feel about "habited" twh 10:01:18 _AndoDaan, oh i can't do brainfuck 10:01:25 is cliche pronounced cleetch? <-- no hth 10:01:32 I think 10:01:46 it isn't even spelled cliche 10:01:51 oerjan: i guess it must be french then 10:02:02 (hint: it's also spelled cliché) 10:02:03 although maybe it could be done by takingt he program code and tacking on an array like ++.[>-<++]+|0010101010`110 10:02:06 cleeshay 10:02:08 where the ` marks the cell we're on 10:02:49 cluid: you need to mark the program position, too, I think 10:02:52 and a symbol for the ip 10:03:20 it could work 10:03:36 shachaf: at least that isn't splitting a morpheme. 10:03:58 mighty morpheme power rangers 10:04:44 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:04:57 actually this seems to work 10:06:04 might morphin power rangers = kyoryuu sentai zyurenjaa 10:11:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:13:30 juurenjaa, juurenjaa, densetsu no senshitachi yo juurenjaa juurenjaa toki wo kakeru kibou, kyouryuu sentai juurenjaa!! 10:13:41 that is the theme song 10:14:33 thank you 10:14:34 the name means Dinosaur Squad Beast Rangers 10:14:34 -!- Lymia has joined. 10:15:23 thank you 10:15:28 i know a lot of completely useless trivia huh 10:16:14 i should spend more time studying my actual courses 10:26:16 [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41297&oldid=41293 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+84) clarified about W^X and corrected link 10:31:40 -!- nooga has joined. 10:32:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:32:41 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Client Quit). 10:42:06 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Quit). 10:44:19 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages 10:47:44 hm? 10:47:55 this is an excellent page 10:48:22 -!- nortti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:48:28 check out the quine, deadfish and truth-machine pages too 10:48:40 (i may be forgetting some) 10:49:50 [wiki] [[Return Oriented Programming]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41298&oldid=41297 * 213.162.68.150 * (+52) /* References */ (style) 11:07:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:09:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:12:10 most people don't follow ads at all <-- i think i followed an ad not by accident once. of course i didn't actually _buy_ anything. 11:12:36 oh i guess i sometimes follow webcomic ads, but i'm not sure that counts. 11:12:41 -!- boily has joined. 11:22:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burn weird 11:27:41 oerjan: do you buy anything after following them? 11:28:15 ...no. 11:28:28 and it probably doesn't count either 11:29:23 http://xn13.com/ what does this program do 11:29:53 oh 11:29:59 i see what it does 11:32:48 underload is cool 11:33:18 [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41299&oldid=39776 * Oerjan * (+176) Doubt it 11:33:40 * oerjan thinks someone is wiki binging 11:34:30 :()^ is turing complete? 11:34:37 yep 11:34:41 * oerjan proved that 11:35:01 that is very surprising 11:35:25 I was wondering what minimal 'stack' ops are TC 11:35:29 i was surprised too. you can see the progression of refinements, at almost every step my initial hunch was "this cannot be TC" 11:35:36 haha 11:35:46 -!- nortti has joined. 11:39:43 it reminds me of one combinator basis 11:39:51 do you think it corresponds to any one combinator basis? 11:40:02 i see you can encode SK into underload by a simple translation 11:41:27 well it seems you can only get combinators that act on a stack representation 11:41:41 in particular you don't have application, only composition i think 11:42:14 hm 11:42:58 you don't have any :()^ program corresponding to Kf because that would be replacing the whole stack with a known one 11:43:15 and you cannot do that in underload at all 11:43:48 so whatever it corresponds to as combinators, it's not a basis for _all_ combinators 11:44:32 this is thinking of underload programs as functions from stacks to stacks 11:44:33 so I wonder if B (composition) and M (self application) are turing complete? 11:44:45 and if that correponds to this underload subset at all 11:45:16 huh 11:47:42 i've been looking a bit at unlambda subsets recently, and self application came up (as `d`cc) but there's no primitive b function 11:48:11 (also the subset i looked at, avoiding s and k, wasn't TC alas) 11:48:48 MM becomes itself, of course... 11:48:57 (non-halting, essentially) 11:49:05 i assume you mean M x = x x 11:49:15 and B f g x = f (g x) 11:50:13 maybe M isnt dup 11:50:20 cluid: note that the :()^ subset has the property that you can never create _new_ elements, only unpack and duplicate old ones 11:52:11 incidentally as part of that unlambda investigation, i found that `d`cc representation as an alternative to ``sii for M 11:52:33 of course that uses continuations so isn't an ordinary combinator 11:53:45 hm what _would_ M be in underload, assuming a stack is a nested list of churc pairs 11:53:54 *church 11:54:08 does it exist at all 11:54:23 hm seems tricky, for the same reason as `Kf 11:55:07 you cannot really duplicate all the stack before running any part of it, and that part might ruin the rest 11:55:48 The way I know to show SK turing complete is by eliminating lambda 11:56:04 yeah that's easy 11:56:07 I wonder how well this applies to other sets of combinators 11:57:23 it applies to some of them but not all? S and K (and I) are important because they're exactly the combinators you need for eliminating lambdas so if you do that you essentially are expressing S and K in other ones. 11:58:11 *with other ones 11:58:16 oh okay, so its basicaly useless for anything except SK: In some cases you should just construct S and K - in other cases... well I wonder about those 11:58:20 those seem like the interesting ones 11:59:03 i recall reading that there was a version that avoided having K 11:59:22 and just "approximated" it enough to work for church numerals 12:00:11 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:00:13 there's the CL_I thing with S,B,C,I as basis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#CLK_versus_CLI_calculus 12:00:37 * oerjan was just about to link that 12:01:16 I could make a point and change the topic to mention the twins oerjan and int-e ;-) 12:02:04 But perhaps it's best to leave it at this bit of weak meta-meta-humor. 12:02:59 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 12:03:01 OKAY 12:03:17 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:04:15 hm in fact :()^ may be closer to that than to SK, because :()^ has no way to remove elements without running them - getting that to work was the final trick... 12:04:47 but B and M also belong to that subset. 12:04:51 BM is awkward to reason about 12:05:03 M has such a crude way of duplication. 12:09:31 http://www.complex-systems.com/pdf/19-3-5.pdf 12:09:39 this bitcopying OISC cites esolang wiki 12:10:01 http://mazonka.com/bbj/ 12:10:44 mazonka used to be active on the wiki 12:11:05 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:11:12 -!- _AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:11:16 oh duh. M B = B B. 12:11:18 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 12:11:32 -!- _AndoDaan has joined. 12:11:39 int-e: um are we working in parallel here 12:12:00 -!- _AndoDaan has quit (Client Quit). 12:12:48 gah beeping 12:12:58 afk 12:13:44 http://mazonka.com/wiki/index.php his wiki is limes too! 12:17:04 B M B B = B B B B B B 12:17:23 cluid: the limes are somehow a default. 12:17:36 fungot: what should we replace the Defaulimes with? 12:17:36 boily: that's the point. there was no elaboration, no doubt 12:17:48 aah. clear, simple, standard and expectable. 12:19:30 theseare different limes 12:19:42 well they are the same limes, but its a differnet picture of them 12:21:27 I had an idea to search for metacalls in 1D CA: try running the CA backwards 12:21:51 this is probably slower than just running it forwards until you find a loop but oh well 12:23:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ASCETIC CHICKEN). 12:25:29 http://www.complex-systems.com/pdf/15-1-1.pdf 12:25:36 pg 13 shows the gliders 12:26:15 I guess trying to collide gliders together and see what they do could be productive 12:33:34 I've been looking through http://www.complex-systems.com/archives.html for interesting papers, but not many seem very interesting 12:51:13 AIUI, what we have is called a trilime. 12:52:21 we've tried to replace it with a synthetic version but it was no good 12:54:18 OMG, these are amazing. https://www.behance.net/Gallery/ALT1977-WE-ARE-NOT-TIME-TRAVELERS/545221 13:02:41 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:02:50 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 13:09:41 im having trouble finding loops in rule 30 1D CA 13:09:50 in particular, two distinct loops 13:09:56 what ca should i look at instead? 13:10:09 (i can find single loops, but never two loops that dont meet) 13:11:18 these are not the limes you are looking for 13:26:03 ahahaha. they actually did it. 13:26:05 https://devuan.org/ 13:27:17 what's with the font sizes.... 13:27:25 devuan is bad :( 13:29:47 (apparently they rely on javascript to select sensible font sizes but have not bothered to make sure that their CSS contains sensible defaults.) 13:30:41 leading to ... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/devuan.png 13:40:04 -!- shikhin has joined. 13:59:05 meh is there any systematic order in the polyominoes thing? 13:59:40 I can see that the horizontal ones come last. 14:04:35 int-e, the order is according to the search tree that i describe 14:05:51 oh. didn't read the blurb, sorry. 14:06:02 -!- mroman has joined. 14:06:04 I'm back. 14:06:31 -!- blsqbot has joined. 14:06:32 @messages-lewd 14:06:32 oerjan said 3d 8h 47m 52s ago: i used the word in the en:you = de:man sense 14:06:32 oerjan asked 2d 13h 27m 13s ago: (1) is your mirror of The Esoteric File Archive still active? (2) has it been updated with the fact the archive itself has moved to github? 14:07:00 @tell oerjan (1) it is still active. (2) no 14:07:00 Consider it noted. 14:07:09 !blsq ?? 14:07:10 | "Burlesque - 1.7.4.dev" 14:07:14 aight 14:09:25 int-e, i thought about ordering them according to the tuple of sorted points if we align the bottom left square with the origin, but i couldn't find a way to generate those in order with a recursive function, it would have required storing them all and sorting at the end 14:10:52 but that version (or a different one) could be added if it's interesting for different ways of generating them 14:11:37 -!- helix__ has joined. 14:12:22 @clear-messages 14:12:22 Messages cleared. 14:12:53 -!- adu has joined. 14:14:28 -!- helix__ has quit (Client Quit). 14:14:33 mroman: okay 14:15:09 it wasn't loading for me when i tried the other day, but working now 14:17:03 mitchs_: one slightly irritating feature is that you only consider two neighbours of the initial square. 14:18:06 -!- Jafet has joined. 14:18:13 (otherwise the first polyominoes would be the square, vertical domino, L tiromino, sidesways T tetromino, + pentomino, with a visible pattern.) 14:18:23 *triomino 14:21:44 oerjan: my vServer has been down for the last 3 days 14:23:50 areioccc code out yet 14:24:41 arecibo code 14:25:32 cluid: no, not yet 14:27:51 int-e, that's because the first square is fixed as the bottom left square 14:29:10 mitchs_: but it isn't once you turn left above the first square or down to the right of the first square. 14:30:33 if we consider the first square as being on the origin, then any squares that have y<0 or (y=0 and x<0) are unreachable 14:33:01 no. you'd never that the "##"\" #" triomino that way. 14:33:22 hmm 14:34:02 -!- visy has left. 14:38:38 how about this one, visiting square in their specified order without backtracking (n=18) http://sprunge.us/YYUR 14:39:56 8 should not have been put there because it's at y=-1 14:40:03 -!- shikhout has joined. 14:40:35 it's put there as a neighbour of 3 14:41:18 -!- cluid has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:41:57 i didn't define reachable in my blurb, but because that square would invalidate the assumption that the first square is the bottom left one, it is unreachable 14:43:29 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:43:41 there's a more detailed explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyomino#Algorithms_for_enumeration_of_fixed_polyominoes 14:44:02 redelmeijer's paper is here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012365X81800155 but i think it leaves the search order as an implementation detail 14:46:07 -!- perrier has joined. 14:46:21 I see. 14:47:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Searching...). 14:52:29 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:05:25 I've just had a bizarre idea for a programming language but I am not sure whether it is esoteric or not 15:05:46 Taneb: go on 15:06:23 The idea behind it is the set of instructions form a group 15:07:05 So you can undo anything 15:07:11 Unfortunately, this makes it Useless 15:08:24 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 15:09:10 But I kind of want to see how fancy it can get 15:10:32 Reversible computing isn't that esoteric 15:10:37 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:11:03 This particular one may be 15:11:14 I'm not veeeery familiar with the area 15:14:55 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 15:24:57 -!- perrier has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:31 Also I just found out about QuickSpec which looks kind of cool 15:28:15 -!- perrier has joined. 15:29:43 -!- nyuszika7h has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:30:23 -!- nyuszika7h has joined. 15:39:36 -!- perrier has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:40:48 -!- perrier has joined. 15:46:18 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 16:07:26 -!- trn has joined. 16:11:37 -!- `^_^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:31:46 -!- cluid has joined. 16:31:49 hello 16:34:28 I had an idea for a website 16:34:36 it could be on github if github pages allows javascript? 16:34:55 The idea is to have a javascript implementation of every esolang, so people can easily try running programs in it 16:35:07 and it would have a drop down menu with lots of example code to try 16:36:45 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick. 16:38:07 http://p-nand-q.com/index.html this guy has a lot of esolangs 16:45:09 http://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_an_artificial_language_designed_to_communicate_instructions_to_a_machine,_particularly_a_computer. 16:47:40 -!- mihow has joined. 16:58:03 -!- Froox has joined. 16:58:49 -!- Froox has quit (Client Quit). 17:01:10 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:10:51 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v1.9.6 Beta Build (2014/12/02) 32 Bit). 17:11:09 -!- GeekDude has joined. 17:11:16 -!- GeekDude has quit (Client Quit). 17:14:45 Taneb, im interested in reversible programming 17:14:46 -!- GeekDude has joined. 17:15:03 cluid, I'll write up this language tonight or tomorrow 17:21:06 ok 17:34:20 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:08:07 there, let's see by how much henkma will beat me this time 18:09:55 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:10:18 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 18:11:22 -!- cluid has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:16:01 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91-rdmsoft [XULRunner 32.0.3/20140923175406]). 18:16:26 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 18:24:24 -!- dts has changed nick to tcs. 18:24:28 -!- tcs has changed nick to dts. 18:25:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:37:48 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:39:42 mitchs_: So actually the search order looks quite sane to me, after having spent some time actually implementing it. 19:06:59 -!- nooga has joined. 19:12:24 -!- `^_^v has joined. 19:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:49:12 -!- viznut_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:55:02 -!- Dulnes has joined. 19:56:50 https://i.imgur.com/7PdwO5r.jpg 19:56:56 Bye 19:57:18 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:58:26 -!- nooga has joined. 19:59:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:00:01 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: bees). 20:13:37 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 20:14:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:27:21 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:34:35 [wiki] [[Talk:Pikalang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41300 * Rdebath * (+809) /* Does this count as an implementation? */ new section 20:40:10 -!- shikhout has joined. 20:42:50 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:45:27 -!- G33kDude has joined. 20:46:28 -!- GeekDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:46:29 -!- G33kDude has changed nick to GeekDude. 20:50:15 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Quit). 20:55:11 -!- perrier has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:55:26 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:57:55 -!- perrier has joined. 21:01:47 what is programming? 21:06:57 int-e, thanks 21:07:07 int-e: I did a straightforward Burlesque of your dc Dominosa, and it turned out to be 80B. It very likely could shorten to something less than my trit-based 78B, but I doubt at least I could get it anywhere near the dc size. 21:07:25 i'm pleasantly surprised to see some interest in the problem already, i thought it would be a less popular one 21:13:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:15:06 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:17:22 -!- augur has joined. 21:23:14 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:36:58 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41301&oldid=41289 * BCompton * (+1166) example program 21:38:53 [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41302&oldid=40713 * SuperJedi224 * (+123) 21:40:34 -!- mitchs_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:41:05 -!- mitchs has joined. 22:00:51 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41303&oldid=41301 * BCompton * (+19) 22:12:04 -!- dts has changed nick to dtsbot. 22:12:13 -!- dtsbot has changed nick to dts. 22:15:00 -!- MDream has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:15:18 -!- MDream has joined. 22:19:29 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:19:35 -!- S1 has joined. 22:25:27 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 22:27:39 -!- Dulnes has joined. 22:27:48 Heyo 22:34:41 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41304&oldid=41303 * SuperJedi224 * (+23) 22:35:55 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41305&oldid=41304 * SuperJedi224 * (-1) 22:44:09 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41306&oldid=41305 * SuperJedi224 * (+418) /* Example Program */ 22:45:30 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41307&oldid=41306 * SuperJedi224 * (-52) 22:46:04 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41308&oldid=41307 * SuperJedi224 * (+90) 22:46:42 [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41309&oldid=41308 * BCompton * (+2) 22:47:12 Mmmm 22:57:17 [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41310 * SuperJedi224 * (+43) Created page with "Well done on the example program, BCompton." 22:57:28 [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41311&oldid=41310 * SuperJedi224 * (+98) 23:02:14 -!- boily has joined. 23:02:38 [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41312&oldid=41311 * BCompton * (+271) 23:03:53 Racket documentation > Python documentation 23:04:14 Racket documentation, as I understand it, is not particularly likely to link to identifiers of the same name in the wrong module 23:04:24 Python docs actually do. In the standard library. 23:05:14 personally i prefer behaviorism to most "cognitive" psychological methodologies 23:06:18 Sgeo: outrageous! do you have any examples? 23:06:54 Bike: all those sub-branches of psychological stuff confuses me. I know there's a difference, but sometimes I fail to grasp them. 23:07:13 s/there's a/there are/ 23:07:27 they're not subfields, just differnet approaches. 23:13:02 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 23:22:47 [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41313&oldid=41312 * BCompton * (+288) 23:24:33 The sound of human bones undergoing liquifaction is great 23:24:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:27:09 [wiki] [[Talk:Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41314&oldid=41313 * BCompton * (+92) 23:32:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:32:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:32:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:40:14 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 23:41:55 boily: https://docs.python.org/2/library/cookielib.html#cookielib.Cookie 23:42:15 Click that Cookie link. Note that it links to the Cookie module, not the cookielib.Cookie 23:42:30 Also, that expectation was wrong 23:42:38 But that's a separate issue 23:42:44 -!- Oren has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:45:14 Cookie.lib :0 23:45:20 Kinda like cake.lib 23:45:48 Sgeo: indeed. 23:46:02 the cake is a lib 23:46:25 Yes! 23:46:41 Pep pep good creb 23:46:47 The Python 3 version points to the right place at least 23:47:03 But this wouldn't have occured at all under Racket's Scribble 23:47:13 Mmm racket 23:47:34 And it wouldn't have caused me way too much annoyance in Haskell, with what would presumably be a clear type error 23:47:45 Ur such a haskell 23:47:46 Instead of complaining that Cookie doesn't have a domain attribute 23:52:52 -!- Frooxius has joined.