< 1417651700 455259 :Bicyclid1ne!~Glossina@wl-nat102.it.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417652219 437486 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat106.it.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417653650 468165 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@wl-nat106.it.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417653940 377846 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1417654019 57467 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417654382 702106 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what is valid C but invalid/differently semanticated(?) C++? < 1417654405 478387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :char *p = malloc(n); < 1417654427 390871 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, elaborate? < 1417654473 210946 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: foo *x = allocateFoo(); if (!x) goto cleanup_foo; bar *y = allocateBar(); if (!y) goto cleanup_bar; /* ... */ deallocateBar(); cleanup_bar: deallocateFoo(); cleanup_foo: ; < 1417654483 619389 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that example because this is 100% idiomatic in C < 1417654507 505021 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++, you can't goto into the scope of a declaration < 1417654560 549562 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both my and shachaf's examples are pretty non-contrived, but shachaf's is easier to fix < 1417654568 427906 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: there are no implicit casts from void* in C++ < 1417654577 852990 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1417654582 338810 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use this < 1417654588 958496 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably won't, but I can... < 1417654600 476568 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd need to write "char *p = reinterpret_cast(malloc(n));" < 1417654602 49617 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1417654611 91287 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417654614 546427 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:53] Taneb: foo *x = allocateFoo(); if (!x) goto cleanup_foo; bar *y = allocateBar(); if (!y) goto cleanup_bar; /* ... */ deallocateBar(); cleanup_bar: deallocateFoo(); cleanup_foo: ; < 1417654616 62419 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:53] I like that example because this is 100% idiomatic in C < 1417654617 539670 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:54] in C++, you can't goto into the scope of a declaration < 1417654619 30959 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:55] both my and shachaf's examples are pretty non-contrived, but shachaf's is easier to fix < 1417654620 533495 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:55] Taneb: there are no implicit casts from void* in C++ < 1417654622 51566 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:55] so you'd need to write "char *p = reinterpret_cast(malloc(n));" < 1417654622 833676 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :got all of those < 1417654623 553647 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1417654634 894732 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : Right < 1417654635 37931 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can use this < 1417654635 38058 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : I probably won't, but I can... < 1417654637 493825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well I didn't get any reply you may have made < 1417654658 643663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in both cases (mine and shachaf's), the C code is normally considered the correct way to write the program in C, by C experts < 1417654902 888263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't static_cast enough < 1417654955 804874 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417655548 748913 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but then what do you even do in c++ if you want to goto cleanup code? < 1417655575 547762 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess each declaration has to be in its own {} pair? < 1417655577 796750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :raii < 1417655628 629427 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like raii bother, amirite folks < 1417655632 934209 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the object is a database transaction or something where the cleanup code may itself need to handle an error? < 1417655660 705859 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also raii doesn't mean what it stands for < 1417655755 665888 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually means allocate in constructor, deallocate in destructot < 1417655802 218565 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has nothing to do with initializing members per se < 1417655815 801702 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing it's not called raimi < 1417655948 868255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about allocation < 1417655951 597842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocation is a special case. < 1417656012 508875 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :allocation, acquireing locks, etc... < 1417656045 378079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"initialisation" doesn't mean initialisation of members. < 1417656048 125682 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :point is, you take resources in constructor and release in dtor < 1417656051 998955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means the initialisation that happens when a constructor is called. < 1417656075 388031 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :initialization means copying a bunch of data into member vars. < 1417656089 915418 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not what raii is about... < 1417656106 158335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In RAII, holding a resource is tied to object lifetime: resource allocation (acquisition) is done during object creation (specifically initialization), by the constructor" < 1417656117 90494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :your interpretation is wrong < 1417656152 562504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I copy paste every line I say correcting you multiple times? it seems like you just repeat your claim the first few times < 1417656161 87425 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructor does more than initialization. constructor is arbitrary code, which may do whatever? < 1417656190 466569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In RAII, holding a resource is tied to object lifetime: resource allocation (acquisition) is done during object creation (specifically initialization), by the constructor" < 1417656213 547683 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your point. they are using word initialization loosely < 1417656222 917159 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mean calling the constructor < 1417656252 610975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not "loosely". < 1417656255 931746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just "differently from you". < 1417656259 110264 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo x= {221,345,635}; that is initialization < 1417656283 664216 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructor can do whatever it wants, up to and including creaign files, etc < 1417656289 914484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really just put you on /ignore... < 1417656290 302269 :Tesla43!~ubuntu@cpe-024-211-211-061.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1417656302 20258 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` exec $(echo bin/*elcome* | shuf | head -n 1) elliott < 1417656306 480920 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09ova/erypbzr: 02Jrypbzr 06gb 13gur 04vagreangvbany 07uho 08sbe 09rfbgrevp 02cebtenzzvat 06ynathntr 13qrfvta 04naq 07qrcyblzrag! 08Sbe 09zber 02vasbezngvba, 06purpx 13bhg 04bhe 07jvxv: 08. 09(Sbe 02gur 06bgure 13xvaq 04bs 07rfbgrevpn, 08gel 09#rfbgrevp 02ba 06vep.qny.arg.) < 1417656315 84299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1417656316 854827 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then is there a technical term for the initialization that i mean? < 1417656367 773979 :Tesla43!~ubuntu@cpe-024-211-211-061.nc.res.rr.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1417656376 160016 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider what is typically done in c++ initialiazation lists, for example. < 1417656397 55757 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good news, there's a .bet tld < 1417656412 335123 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bet? like gambling? < 1417656413 846271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say "initialisation of member fields" or "initialisation" when the context makes it obvious. < 1417656415 769811 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Betting, when practiced responsibly, can be extremely enjoyable. It can also excite the passions, and command phenomenal attention and interest. Knowing this, we aim to unite these feelings under one electronic roof within this generic TLD (Top Level Domain) .Bet. Online betting has increasingly become part of everyday life for hundreds of millions of people, and nowadays online markets exist for betting on < 1417656420 117215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a technical term in the C++ standard < 1417656421 735989 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric : just about anything. < 1417656436 771554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may even be "initialisation" but that doesn't change the fact that RAII is just invoking the less specific meaning of initialisation < 1417656452 385117 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :An intuitive generic Top Level Domain (TLD) name makes .bet distinguishable from the broad bet-related content found across the Internet, and there are clear benefits to all those in the betting affinity group. < 1417656457 483429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Other names for this idiom include Constructor Acquires, Destructor Releases (CADRe) [6]" my other car is a CADRe < 1417656480 60747 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cadre is better. < 1417656486 52125 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that thanks < 1417656489 527109 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my other car is a junta < 1417656560 604787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody knows what CADRe means. also it doesn't generalise as well to non-C++ languages < 1417656610 218699 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wll most every other language has automatic memory management so it isn't such a huge thing < 1417656624 453157 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Scheme has caddadr but I think that is different < 1417656625 824385 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(every other OO lanfgage i mean) < 1417656648 536997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAII applies in non-OO contexts too < 1417656667 403719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on your definition of OO, anyway < 1417656728 330099 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only have an informal one: a language in which setting a variable is not equivalent to a memcpy. < 1417656750 648899 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. it may do arbitrary things < 1417656813 801248 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1417656834 165402 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :register x equals zero < 1417656854 684271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's your definition of OO?? < 1417656862 920751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Java every assignment is a memcpy. < 1417656913 400788 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no hidden behaviourof any non-function call construct? < 1417656914 561350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my understanding of the situation generally is that RAII is a good idea in general, but C++ makes it very difficult to use alternatives < 1417656935 50946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in java, x = y never does anything more complex than evaluating y and copying the result into x < 1417656940 66389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually the result is a pointer < 1417656951 511535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if Java has added = overloading recently I'm going to look so foolish) < 1417656971 204836 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point. < 1417656973 59475 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will you ever live it down < 1417656974 700066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't allow overloading of anything that doesn't look like a function call, AFAIK < 1417656979 95066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, categorising high-level language attributes like object-orientation based on non-universal implementation details is pretty silly... < 1417656992 492627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :function/method < 1417656999 143638 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then why isn't C OO if I use FILE*? < 1417657023 702922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is using encapsulation correctly if you use FILE* < 1417657031 99608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since C11, at least < 1417657037 294753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C89 and C99, FILE has to be a concrete struct < 1417657042 94066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, concrete type generally < 1417657061 743802 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with struct declarations, C is OO? that doesn't make sense. < 1417657092 567143 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. declare struct foo; in header, define in .c file. < 1417657114 73444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use OO techniques in C. < 1417657114 983533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1417657115 961231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: what is confusing you is that OO does not have a monopoly on good data hiding and encapsulation principles < 1417657117 662826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty popular. < 1417657126 939300 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was so excited to get to talk about reading frames last night. what a fool i was < 1417657135 759718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"OO language" is an ill-defined and vague term, anyway < 1417657140 181705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean it's not useful < 1417657141 717578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like dynamically typed languages do not have a monopoly on good testsuites < 1417657145 553849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does mean trying to lawyer your way around it is pointless < 1417657170 588204 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why I define it in terms of hidden behaviour of simple constructs? < 1417657182 65436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: would you consider :≠ object-oriented? < 1417657201 709300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :god, I hate this channel so much < 1417657223 691805 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like when someone was trying to talk about an equality operator in a very non C language as being "pointer equality", "like C", because C doesn't put things in registers ever < 1417657230 989048 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there's a ##biology < 1417657235 429776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a concentrated block of bitterness < 1417657238 272041 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1417657241 147937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I define reference equality as "changing one of these things changes the other" < 1417657250 826893 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there is #biology < 1417657253 362836 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: much more sensible, yes < 1417657258 956125 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy on write < 1417657261 30298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a pretty good definition of reference equality regardless of language, except when you have pointer arithmetic and pointers to subobjects < 1417657274 674688 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PART #esoteric :"never" < 1417657278 6567 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if copy on write? < 1417657284 898252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: in the case of reference equality, I'd say that a COW copy is not reference-equal < 1417657298 838174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :COW is an optimization of copying the value < 1417657316 302255 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that makes sense, but the pointers could be equal before you write < 1417657317 383313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be an implementation detail < 1417657336 180837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they still conceptually reference different objects < 1417657339 737295 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so reference equality isn't pointer equality < 1417657359 258945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer equality is hard to define < 1417657372 165337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a recent ongoing argument on comp.lang.c about that that lasted like a month < 1417657415 561363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the argument was, if you have two arrays int x[2], int y[2], then is a compiler allowed to be inconsistent about whether x+2 == y? < 1417657417 843503 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer equality is easy to define on sane architectures < 1417657428 797495 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a pointer is an integer < 1417657437 633380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc and clang can both return inconsistent results for this given suitable programs < 1417657446 437008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this is probably technically a bug < 1417657477 556723 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is allowed, but it breaks C's assemblerness to do so. < 1417657490 234197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has very little "assemblerness" left. < 1417657497 112164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: what if a pointer is just an integer, but the compiler does optimizations? < 1417657512 932020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: anyway, I think you have quite a naive interpretation about what a computer is < 1417657521 930610 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how? < 1417657531 240643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the bigger misconception is that asm is somehow close to the hardware < 1417657548 673359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern asms are basically just compression schemes for executables < 1417657550 985120 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm isn't. microcode is. < 1417657552 822033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because memory bandwidth is so important < 1417657571 889565 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm is calling subroutines in rom inside the CPU < 1417657573 917114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: well, what's the point of C being close to asm if asm isn't close to anything? < 1417657580 96120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, the CPU does optimization too < 1417657583 551430 :S1!~S1@p4FF938CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1417657598 970807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when there's a bug in the CPU's optimizer, it can cause all sorts of pain < 1417657610 740906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally the compilers are just taught to generate code that doesn't expose the bugs < 1417657622 297186 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm is calling methods of the CPU object < 1417657632 672325 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I messed up 24-hour clocks again :( < 1417657638 449330 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Booked a train two hours early < 1417657650 458830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: CPUs are not very object-oriented < 1417657705 473026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: are you just trolling now < 1417657723 140042 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, but as a first approximation to how they work, they interpret their instruction set as a minimal esolang < 1417657739 179899 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :using code written in a even more minimal esolang < 1417657751 718013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most asms aren't really that eso < 1417657755 956012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they typically all work in much the same way < 1417657761 944747 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but machine code it < 1417657763 690887 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1417657779 592006 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417657795 144676 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example consider how inconsistent x86 is compared to 6502 < 1417657807 971679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being inconsistent isn't normally enough by itself to make a language eso < 1417657810 516796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or PHP would be an esolang < 1417657822 725100 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417657836 198185 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu QUIT :Client Quit < 1417657840 953097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, my working definition of an esolang is "a language for which there's no point in writing an extensive standard library" < 1417657865 849039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much all asms fail this test, unless they're for nonexistent processors < 1417657869 520101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. redcode is probably an esolang < 1417657883 937556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo all languages are esoteric, and words mean nothing, and ada isn't object-oriented because you run it on a VAX, and skateboarding is NOT a crime < 1417657895 330045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I am president of the united states < 1417657909 290644 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothingabout ada or vaxes < 1417657922 692525 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for all i know you are right < 1417657940 927409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you. im glad this place is being reasoanble again < 1417657956 374204 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do i know that you are not Obama? < 1417657961 682921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to confuse the opinions of one person with the opinions of the whole channel < 1417657987 643791 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :do VAXes have problems with OO? < 1417658005 571645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is it the VAX whose native function call mechanism can't do recursion? < 1417658008 495510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the US government outlawed object oriented programming when designing their `Vax' architecture < 1417658026 169887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd break encapsulation because you can't tell if a call is going to potentially recurse or not if you can't see its definition < 1417658026 939708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not secure enough. < 1417658116 495961 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, compilers would have to make up their own call sequence < 1417658134 927748 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like saving stuff to a stack before recursing < 1417658140 487532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1417658224 405814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't it varargs it can't do or something < 1417658228 56839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1417658233 403364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :VAX has an instruction to call a function with an argument list, right < 1417658238 181030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1417658238 491470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works for varargs < 1417658244 835107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CISC architectures are wild < 1417658248 783901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the convention I'm thinking of overwrites the first two bytes of the called function with the return address < 1417658251 719172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't have a stack at all < 1417658255 469576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by , right I mean I'm sure it's true, up to my memory functioning < 1417658257 493088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not be vax though < 1417658276 391547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it should overwrite the target of an immediate jump instruction instead < 1417658277 412690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the convention exists; however, I'm not certain I've got the arch right < 1417658283 368018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end of the function < 1417658293 105904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: then how would it know where the end of the function was? < 1417658310 107702 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417658322 945394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm < 1417658330 258567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several options, not sure which one is most amusing < 1417658359 420030 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like a terrible plan. i like it < 1417658377 151190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: one is to have a pointer to the start of the function after that jmp < 1417658443 609502 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any reason why the assembler has to keep track of onlyone address for each function? < 1417658457 7222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory bandwidth < 1417658467 419120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want the encodings of your commands to be as short as possible < 1417658470 122161 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah that was low back then. < 1417658481 620977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's lower nowadays than it was back then, relative to CPU speeds < 1417658483 275281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, how about this: the jmp instruction is actually at the start of the function < 1417658490 362274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the CPU can run both forwards and backwards < 1417658492 230936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on old computers, the RAM could normally keep up with a CPU running at top speed < 1417658495 71363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :jumping makes it run forwards < 1417658504 209172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on modern computers, there's no chance < 1417658510 852988 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we use caches for that right? < 1417658513 576699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so to return, you do something like, when running forwards < 1417658521 450106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh < 1417658527 527943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I had a good idea but now it seems not good < 1417658528 429901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1417658531 514148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: caches are an attempt to work around the problem < 1417658537 991964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they can only partially help < 1417658550 155627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because physical limits affect how much data you can store in them at a time < 1417658587 193242 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey... question: can a cpu operate using only its cache as memory? < 1417658596 31251 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no RAM external? < 1417658656 160129 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like we have cpus with MB of cache. way back when, 10MB was a lot. < 1417658671 381942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPUs have multiple layers of cache < 1417658677 1549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: CPUs do operate that way when they boot up < 1417658679 869516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RAM has to be initialised < 1417658682 615342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably the lowest level is the registers, and you can certainly do useful programs with just those < 1417658689 972788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're very limited in storage < 1417658732 881789 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then i think it may be possible to run DOS entirely in cache. < 1417658752 524436 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :look ma, no mmu or ram? < 1417658957 79312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: there are multiple caches < 1417658962 58392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably couldn't fit DOS into L1 < 1417658973 698320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but L3 is very likely possible on the CPUs that have it, not sure about L2 < 1417659009 520976 :G33kDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417659021 959115 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i'm gonna take all the ram out of my test box and try to boot it... < 1417659057 514409 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehat even happens during startup if there is not ram? < 1417659220 235800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, the RAM test fails < 1417659239 519896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely, you'll get a diagnostic produced the best way the computer's ROM knows how < 1417659239 663081 :Froox!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1417659253 703572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're lucky, that'll be a message on the screen, but more likely it'll be a sequence of beeps < 1417659264 530752 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417659338 473163 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. despite having as mmuch memory inside CPU as the C64 even had, no graphics or text. < 1417659361 485700 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of want to try the Implicit Association Test at some point, but really scared to < 1417659567 232485 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that test in? < 1417659584 211456 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what field that is? < 1417659594 470761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: most likely, the problem is that the GPU uses memory mapping to know what it's supposed to say < 1417659598 616324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with no RAM, there's no memory to map in < 1417659603 467930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like the GPU can access the CPU cache < 1417659605 97674 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dang < 1417659620 855581 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: tries to uncover subconscious biases < 1417659629 640149 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc < 1417659660 980432 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess we'll have to wait for system-on-a-chip < 1417659821 269926 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i can see why that would be scary... < 1417659983 675014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1417660025 690059 :G33kDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude NICK :GeekDude < 1417660923 551348 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1417661121 127658 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1417661663 263133 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my dad dug up a msdos floppy... lo and behold it still works < 1417661680 910932 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A:\> < 1417661733 555631 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :really nintendo has nothing on intel when it comes to backward compatibility < 1417661790 602033 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the days of B:... < 1417662028 471666 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: OCCLUSAL CHICKEN < 1417662724 848880 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: that's awesome. I have a floppy drive connected to my pi, and really enjoyed digging up some old floppies to see what was on them < 1417662741 572884 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417665001 687659 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417665079 779049 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1417665096 656377 :Froox!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417666117 135297 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now learning QBASIC < 1417667328 427052 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhzcwcrcnqbywcyz JOIN :#esoteric < 1417667359 175693 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :About how much work would it be to get DOOM working? < 1417667477 116656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1417667485 229407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :archive.org has old versions of sourcereal.com < 1417667513 36835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Many spices are found in sour cereal. There is cumin, which has a cumin flavor, and adds a cumin flavor to the cereal. There is also fenugreek which actually lends a sour flavor to the cereal. Also, in sourcereal, can be found oregano seeds. Sourcereal has cilantro as well. Cilantro can be added to the sour cereal after it has finished cooking. Cilantro is almost always found in sour cereal." < 1417667519 44227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ads < 1417667521 548953 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sorts of things < 1417668192 203375 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1417668637 725373 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417669531 807421 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417669534 419092 :yorick_!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1417669832 11430 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417669859 466233 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417669860 804749 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417669867 868025 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca NICK :Oren < 1417669911 789276 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417672003 785369 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.90.105 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417672162 117233 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.77.189 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1417672604 761037 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.188.90.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417672856 631801 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.67.229 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417677078 397108 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv JOIN :#esoteric < 1417677094 987734 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Replace every vowel in your name with oob < 1417677457 116450 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would we want to do that, CoobkoobMooboobt? < 1417677955 781575 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1417677973 401362 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not foobzzooboob < 1417678034 980782 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417678351 290768 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it would look: silly. < 1417678354 931163 :Oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oobroobn < 1417678373 329865 :Oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca NICK :oobroobn < 1417678380 125451 :oobroobn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1417678455 694128 :oobroobn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw QBASIC is awesome. i am gaining a great respect for Microsoft. < 1417678672 880529 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1417678759 308325 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how close to 13 years old CakeMeat is.
< 1417678851 500523 :oobroobn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :qbasic is a better ide than most modern ones - for example it dynamically formats your code to be readable, as you type it. < 1417679225 583721 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps int-e
< 1417679247 46863 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dont be rude i was just trying to lighten the mood in here < 1417679256 826026 :oobroobn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca NICK :arbrarbn < 1417679321 456817 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :QBASIC is probably the only thing i appreciate in terms of Microsoft < 1417679410 621957 :arbrarbn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still can't quite fathom that a disk my dad copied in 1994 works in a 2009 computer < 1417679461 401022 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? magic < 1417679461 544087 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : magic < 1417679489 20330 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambdabot agrees < 1417679503 492284 :arbrarbn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magic of intel making every processor an extention of previous processors i gusss < 1417679591 503438 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> reverse "mood" < 1417679593 630803 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : "doom" < 1417679620 291689 :arbrarbn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to get doom working now < 1417679649 405947 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you change your name to arbarbn < 1417679661 42444 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also im in the mood for doom < 1417679681 243120 :arbrarbn!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca NICK :yaaryaan < 1417679740 260186 :yaaryaan!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i can find the original game for DOS that would be epic < 1417679891 786346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: didn't you hear? CakeMeat is 25, and married with three kids and one more on the way, with his broken CPU core :p < 1417679961 308521 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'll take your word for it. I'm too lazy to check the logs. < 1417680004 213149 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric ::I < 1417680032 464789 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enjoy your company elliott < 1417680043 915431 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its a treat < 1417680140 1233 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :same < 1417680913 902578 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417680997 357940 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, codu no longer does rsync? < 1417681049 987029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it? < 1417681051 79151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1417681057 824825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:16:46 [freenode] -glogbot(dlopen@libdl.so)- Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ . Also available via rsync: rsync --size-only -avz rsync://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ logs/ < 1417681386 836558 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I have: rsync --size-only -avz rsync://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ . < 1417681395 248455 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :rsync: failed to connect to codu.org (64.62.173.65): Connection refused (111) < 1417681398 701046 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what I get. < 1417681452 751586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hm. < 1417681454 736983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked for me recently. < 1417681458 744752 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, wget -c does the trick as well. < 1417681479 47202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could give you a compressed copy of the #esoteric logs if you'd like. < 1417681502 567217 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm good. < 1417681564 38285 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :rsync worked before, I'm just grabbing a coupe of recent logs. < 1417681709 227365 :yaaryaan!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not a sedan of recent logs? < 1417681747 244684 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh. < 1417682077 347214 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: aww, I think you made up everything you just said about CakeMeat. I'm so dreadfully disappointed. < 1417682102 64656 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, CakeMeat made it up < 1417682107 664684 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may also know him as Dulnes < 1417682167 170987 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1417682703 646279 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh James Stirling seems to have had an interesting life... "Fearing assassination on account of having discovered a trade secret of the glassmakers of Venice, he returned with Newton's help to London about the year 1725." < 1417683915 77887 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417684074 378038 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417685442 229873 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1417686082 71249 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch NICK :mroobmoobn < 1417686127 762083 :mroobmoobn!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq "b~"{"oobs"}f~ < 1417686128 49527 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | "boobs" < 1417686163 163254 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome mroobmoobn < 1417686165 535733 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​06mroobmoobn: 13Welcome 04to 07the 08international 09hub 02for 06esoteric 13programming 04language 07design 08and 09deployment! 02For 06more 13information, 04check 07out 08our 09wiki: 02. 06(For 13the 04other 07kind 08of 09esoterica, 02try 06#esoteric 13on 04irc.dal.net.) < 1417686201 294329 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you look so nooby today so you get a `relcome < 1417686217 459074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:10 Replace every vowel in your name with oob < 1417686230 978358 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fiendish < 1417686290 564892 :mroobmoobn!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORLY? < 1417686347 228352 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :YRLY < 1417686392 180273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ørjanly? yaaryaanly < 1417686407 105204 :mroobmoobn!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oobrly < 1417686412 367980 :mroobmoobn!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoobrly < 1417686413 488718 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoochoof < 1417686641 843229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would sure be nice if English had a clear way to write long and short vowels of all varieties. < 1417686654 639798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a short "ee" you can try "i" but you're usually out of luck. < 1417686676 385912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And s/"ee"/"oo"/ s/"i"/"u"/ < 1417686979 694000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :english spelling is so ghotie < 1417687060 552791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's such a terrible example :'( < 1417687221 925093 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was meant to be terrible hth < 1417687469 850423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :those things come up in contexts not on their own < 1417687489 407999 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :of all the ways you could make fun of english spelling why would you choose a terrible one < 1417687536 546398 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :phyandish < 1417687685 263083 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.67.229 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1417688812 270505 :mitchs_!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia JOIN :#esoteric < 1417689021 816023 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1417689702 189209 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wijlccjnprwzfljg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417691033 326869 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691130 20491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417691147 614040 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691314 318970 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417691392 49880 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691625 987201 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691687 867405 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkeryevfmbopludv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417691851 443474 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-34-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691890 799433 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-34-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1417691890 982558 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417691922 112059 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417692862 473375 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1417692907 540851 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417693227 272681 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S0 < 1417693915 27589 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty impressed with this brainfuck-in-rust's-type-system thing < 1417694107 124034 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417694597 910092 :S0!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :|S} < 1417694732 631168 :|S}!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S0 < 1417694798 815500 :S0!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :|S} < 1417695993 286918 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: INFIX CHICKEN < 1417696271 952931 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The poem "The Chaos" has ample examples, though "Foeffer" is doubtful. < 1417696341 272128 :|S}!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S1 < 1417696447 489892 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love reading the Haskell sources. < 1417697528 20531 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S0 < 1417697799 939849 :S0!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S1 < 1417698427 197504 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417698504 212923 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417698511 327955 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive JOIN :#esoteric < 1417699406 647674 :yorick_!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick NICK :yorick < 1417699468 114391 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S0 < 1417700886 11821 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Dimensions14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41327&oldid=41260 5* 03TomPN 5* (-3) 10/* Hello World! */ < 1417701693 580830 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Dimensions14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41328&oldid=41327 5* 03TomPN 5* (+3) 10/* Hello World! */ < 1417701844 637920 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417701985 368674 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1417702227 634065 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91-rdmsoft [XULRunner 32.0.3/20140923175406] < 1417702397 885990 :S0!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de NICK :S1 < 1417702859 269037 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1417703270 580881 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lxypvqxzmbiqsjxc JOIN :#esoteric < 1417704887 925192 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1417705299 550470 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1417705548 314427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1417705676 58218 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Mmmm()14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41329&oldid=41318 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+1785) 10 < 1417705807 35939 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Mmmm()14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41330&oldid=41329 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (-38) 10 < 1417706051 633845 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417707116 886302 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417707175 672455 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive JOIN :#esoteric < 1417707650 347654 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417708078 292817 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1417708486 152872 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417709042 396000 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417709072 543613 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1417709166 735818 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41331&oldid=41089 5* 03TomPN 5* (+109) 10/* Example programs */ < 1417709184 756592 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41332&oldid=41331 5* 03TomPN 5* (+0) 10/* Hello World! */ < 1417709200 829469 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41333&oldid=41332 5* 03TomPN 5* (-109) 10/* Example programs */ < 1417709257 371535 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41334&oldid=41333 5* 03TomPN 5* (+95) 10/* Example programs */ < 1417709274 120627 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41335&oldid=41334 5* 03TomPN 5* (-3) 10/* Example programs */ < 1417709284 970360 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Musical notes14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41336&oldid=41335 5* 03TomPN 5* (-187) 10/* Example programs */ < 1417709296 695946 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar LOWI < 1417709297 50363 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 041550Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 SCT090 BKN300 06/04 Q1012 NOSIG < 1417709585 340253 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the prefix for HackEgo again? < 1417709921 790375 :nyuszika7h_!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417709937 759608 :nortti_!nortti@nano.smar.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1417709938 102454 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1417709938 348812 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1417709954 723051 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh I thought it was ' < 1417709968 299178 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :'help < 1417709977 146395 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it already (duh) < 1417709982 724223 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~KingOfKar@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1417709985 423291 :nyuszika7h!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1417709985 423392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1417709985 627125 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1417709996 720488 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION says: help
< 1417710000 981150 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~KingOfKar@unaffiliated/kingofkarlsruhe JOIN :#esoteric < 1417710027 984523 :nortti_!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1417710066 978971 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ;; < 1417710069 31878 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK] [U+003B SEMICOLON] < 1417710407 245829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1417710630 645187 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1417710839 695763 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417710904 251773 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 < 1417710905 525967 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1417710926 311518 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417711004 214845 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The provider just announced a reboot, so that's happening right now... they really need to improve their stability or I'll have to look for another one...) < 1417711181 605666 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417711701 308544 :S1!~S1@p4FF9341E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1417711898 752383 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, it's coming back. < 1417711964 705898 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1417711978 308043 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1417712102 989474 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1417712125 489708 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bot < 1417712133 80251 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1417712567 450949 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417712634 587544 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, 26303 elo rating, quite impressive. http://2700chess.com/ < 1417712722 207176 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, it's fixed. < 1417712786 453829 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417713388 593574 :yaaryaan!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1417713605 630240 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's a good bot prefix ("^AACTION is", that is) < 1417713621 67371 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, s/is/says: /2 < 1417713625 161376 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: I propsed color codes as a bot prefix < 1417713639 856498 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a good idea < 1417713653 306396 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :µ < 1417713654 687746 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :^O would be discrete < 1417713666 883022 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, discreet maybe < 1417713675 202069 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtle is probably a better word choice < 1417713734 471253 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1417713914 399418 :nyuszika7h_!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net NICK :nyuszika7h < 1417714077 587070 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhzcwcrcnqbywcyz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1417714433 448204 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417714576 894557 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417714616 997133 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone use zarfs IF viewer < 1417714663 498380 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.eblong.com/zarf/xzip.html < 1417714668 421191 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted to run it, but it wont work/ < 1417714845 280356 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a Z-machine implementation, too, called ZORKMID < 1417714864 80249 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which uses plain C so shouldn't need X or anything like that < 1417714876 178870 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive JOIN :#esoteric < 1417714896 980324 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly interested in how he made a GUI in X, i want to make a GUI < 1417714917 223345 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know much about making anything in X < 1417714929 512910 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wondered how to compile inform to zcode, but it looks quite a lot of work so I probably wont look into that < 1417714968 934198 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what about making an IRC channel through which people can play zork? (as a group) < 1417715053 545782 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ifMUD has something like that? < 1417715159 451686 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note "ZORKMID" is short for "Zork Machine Interpreter and Debugger" < 1417715275 200296 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also learn how a Z-machine implementation is working by looking at its source-codes and you can do other thing if you want with it since it is in the public domain. < 1417715326 938943 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that's what zorkmid stands for! I knew it had to do with zork. < 1417715364 337057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this is only what my own program called "ZORKMID" stands for anyways. < 1417715373 518062 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1417715374 170349 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1417715389 360354 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zorkmid also means zork currency?? < 1417715396 938223 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently it is only an implementation of ZIP. Later I can make implementation of EZIP and called it EZORKMID. < 1417715436 979396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: Yes it is also that < 1417715503 238375 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have any tips if i find IF games very hard? < 1417715584 313282 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't have any myself, although you could look it up < 1417716958 401153 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1417718171 626196 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should have named it GRUE < 1417718197 271366 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ZORKMID is a good name too < 1417718222 578129 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1417718382 609123 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you want to call it GRUE? < 1417718507 361720 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it stand for anything? < 1417718516 23088 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a creature < 1417718531 769284 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417718563 123623 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I know < 1417718586 479240 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I wanted to make the name short for "Zork Machine Interpreter and Debugger", that's why I didn't call it GRUE < 1417718635 228251 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a weak attempt: Game RUntime Environment < 1417718699 926450 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-112-147-188.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1417718703 123526 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my code isnt working :( < 1417718712 420636 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what code is it? < 1417718723 13923 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :missile launch code? < 1417718764 666498 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its emitting c code, but it got interpreted wrong so the output is wrong < 1417718783 224494 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(attack=TRUE)sub.launch("ICBM"); < 1417718833 578910 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong, hmm. Did you rely on unspecified or undefined behaviour? < 1417718849 210291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: What code is that? < 1417718865 798897 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its my lisp code < 1417718874 507859 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been writing it a long time and its bad < 1417718883 546849 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp emitting C? cool! < 1417718920 10262 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder how C code can be interepreted wrong rather than being wrong in the first place. Okay, it could be a compiler bug...) < 1417718948 737258 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :probaby he means the code the lisp is reading is being interpreted wrong. < 1417718963 228046 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the many meanings of "it". You could be right. < 1417718991 113563 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you also probaby? < 1417719010 426831 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that as "probably" < 1417719026 741214 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, its what i meant originally < 1417719038 815334 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I didn't even see the typo. < 1417719061 594844 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm neutral about babies. < 1417719313 76661 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway i think languages should be designed so they are easy to parse. Lisp is a very good example. < 1417719359 200198 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can't get a parser working, it's probably the language designer's fault < 1417719387 779204 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming you are a competent programmer for most things) < 1417719402 24839 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like Lisp's (lack of) syntax at all. < 1417719419 195417 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about J? (also easy to parse) < 1417719470 544544 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what languages are your favorites? < 1417719533 71603 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I disagree, a language should be easy for a human to parse. That generally means whitespace-sensitive. < 1417719547 601923 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indentation-sensitive specifically. < 1417719573 972626 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a language is indentation sensitive it should disallow the tab character < 1417719608 597022 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make it much easier to parse < 1417719612 582068 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would actually be fine with me. < 1417719674 380167 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if the only indent char is space, then it reduces to a simple count. < 1417719689 97347 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> filter isSpace [minBound .. maxBound] < 1417719690 979387 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : "\t\n\v\f\r \160\5760\6158\8192\8193\8194\8195\8196\8197\8198\8199\8200\8201... < 1417719733 324326 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok just disallow any whitespace other than \n and space < 1417719774 507559 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would also allow code editor to use tab-completion < 1417719822 785373 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you even type a vertical tab or a form feed? < 1417719824 118534 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it like makefiles, only allow tabs < 1417719860 336019 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo. tabs only in non-whitespace-sensitive languages! < 1417719887 106053 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i see python first thing i do is change the tabs to spaces. < 1417719939 470896 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> isSpace ' ' < 1417719940 443500 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C i change spaces to tabs < 1417719941 505576 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : True < 1417719962 823241 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that weird? < 1417719972 380598 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length $ filter isSpace [minBound .. maxBound] < 1417719974 137442 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 23 < 1417720096 722560 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I wonder how GHC reacts to double-wide characters in places they would influence indentation … < 1417720119 257400 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1417720190 904408 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what like an ideographic　space? < 1417720231 334282 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :should disallow them but what do i know? < 1417720238 639075 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, an ideographic identifier before a case or where or something. < 1417720244 735475 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.... < 1417720281 931630 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be treated as 2 chars wide, that is standard in those languages. < 1417720325 317716 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I happen to be quite attached to parsing numerical expressions with their usual precedences and evaluation order. < 1417720405 803502 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least it looks like J wouldn't make me (or my editor) count parentheses all the time. < 1417720482 180461 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think if you need proper algebra it should be a sub-language in the same way as regexes < 1417720571 244414 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it does not overcomplicate the parser for the rest of the language. algebraic expressions can be treated as black boxes be the parser. < 1417720613 636776 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase most code is not overly mathematical < 1417720626 722684 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears GHC treats double-wide chars the same as single-wide chars. Meaning the indentation looks weird in the case I contrived. < 1417720878 935867 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: So I have two objections, I think. One is, now I have to rely on some third part (not the compiler, and not me) to give me useful syntax errors. That's the smaller concern. The bigger concern is that there will be a proliferation of slightly incompatible algebraic notations in the wild. How do you avoid that? < 1417720889 137190 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case you've merely shifted complexity. < 1417721071 16908 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages already have a proliferation of incompatible algebraic notations. < 1417721085 168373 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what the algolsphere is < 1417721100 95004 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I happen to be a fan of Haskell, a language that is quite difficult to parse. For the most part I actually like all the syntactic sugar.) < 1417721131 454723 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: I'm only using ASCII though ;-) < 1417721272 67983 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, i LIke simple syntax language like lisp and forth, infix operators are good to save on brackets though < 1417721281 195226 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider 3^5. it is 6 under C derivatives, and 243 in other languages < 1417721313 269903 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I know. I was talking about this kind of thing happening inside a single programming language. < 1417721328 406761 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also am only using ASCII and as far as I am concerned non-ASCII characters should only be allowed inside of string literals and comments. < 1417721348 445564 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. yeah what you do is standardize it for each language, like PERL has its standard regexes < 1417721388 694006 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is there would be a delimiter enclodsing "algebraic mode" from the rest of the language. < 1417721415 32122 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, Yes < 1417721419 796702 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bunch of times used greek letters when the most fitting latin letters were already taken. < 1417721540 765184 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think all letters that look different from others should be allowed. so τ would be allowed but not Ε. < 1417721602 592692 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the program could be reduced to a "lookalike normal form" before being parsed < 1417721608 777729 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That’s probably harder to do than parse indentation-sensitive language. < 1417721626 927512 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GridScript14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41337&oldid=41291 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+0) 10/* Command Summary */ < 1417721634 399301 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah best to just select which chars look different enough < 1417721635 207814 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finally got my code to work < 1417721642 122986 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a really horrible experience < 1417721668 200735 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, selecting and enumerating which letters are allowed or not is harder than etc. < 1417721775 512173 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? you only do it once, and then just keep a list and use the unicode equivalent of strpbrk < 1417721812 674735 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wcspbrk? < 1417721822 867848 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would happen in the lexer not the parser anyway < 1417721836 937871 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, how is scrip7 going < 1417721859 46377 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am still creating a better notation for hexes. < 1417721863 702948 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1417721868 640751 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: Also, the doing it once was the thing I meant. < 1417721951 392395 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i think it is that hard, so long as you are limiting to chars used in math < 1417722017 58456 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the latin greek and hebrew alphabets < 1417722031 268246 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1417722087 52628 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also have to work on school stuff still so i don't expect to be done for a while < 1417722192 136614 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obfuscation exercise: use unicode bidi to write a program that looks like it does something different. < 1417722288 108174 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if you can reverse division... < 1417722313 456756 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let foo = א"ב" where א = id; ב = id in foo < 1417722315 190271 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : "\1489" < 1417722329 80857 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> var $ let foo = א"ב" where א = id; ב = id in foo < 1417722330 856015 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ב < 1417722340 939931 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :spec obfuscation exercise: extend the bidi algorithm to be turing complete without anyone noticing < 1417722404 882265 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If bidi is working, the the א"ב will be shown RTL, so it looks like the א is inside the quotes. < 1417722441 47940 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :my font shows hebrew in data order < 1417722479 181602 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's the terminal's fault < 1417722483 477905 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It’s independent of your font, only dependent on the program doing the text rendering. < 1417722500 106714 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using irssi in xfce4-terminal < 1417722511 805320 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not many terminals do this, the only one I’ve heard of is iTerm I think. < 1417722538 299404 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly my terminals show them in data order. < 1417722601 41942 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :php has a function for converting hebrew < 1417722625 876514 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was invented in israel < 1417722672 968109 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :“converting”? < 1417722699 332362 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hebrev : converts logical heberw text to visual < 1417722717 740252 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :… that’s horrible. < 1417722743 370122 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to tel the c compiler to figure out function prototypes instead of assuming everything is returning int? < 1417722751 353926 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1417722766 240163 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to declare everything < 1417722784 842101 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the top of the page < 1417722791 868023 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a book report < 1417722814 118109 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is i cant be bothered adding code to do it < 1417722892 387015 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use my style you can simply copy the first line of the definition, with { changed to ; < 1417722910 109988 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the top of the file < 1417722959 871026 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have code that does this < 1417722975 283622 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just hoped i could get it without having to add a flag to run with that option < 1417723001 675263 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh??? < 1417723108 165272 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im lazy < 1417723130 913337 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need a flag? it should always declare all functions < 1417723196 252405 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1417723227 384151 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :declare allthethings.jpg < 1417723329 363934 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1417723512 848537 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1417723817 88459 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intercal suggests comefrom could be used for concurrency, but that's true for goto as well < 1417723824 763470 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a 1 to 1 mapping between comefrom and goto < 1417723864 532316 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although with computed comefrom it becomes a bit different < 1417723869 728885 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have used gcc's computed gotos for coroutines before < 1417723893 683422 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computed comefrom would be interesting < 1417724172 827698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some implementations of INTERCAL have it. < 1417724190 924181 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm you could generalize to a TOFROM statement that links two arbitrary lines < 1417724213 288952 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 TOFROM 170 456 < 1417724234 104413 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes program code go from 170 to line 456 < 1417724267 892311 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :51 TOFROM 170 123 < 1417724276 453344 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should it choose randomly? < 1417724286 966170 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe hey overwrite < 1417724303 922024 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-013.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fork. < 1417724311 213839 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1417724339 585156 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-112-147-188.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1417724355 228014 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1417724444 130971 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1417724459 139899 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :computed TOFROM < 1417724575 912462 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nice < 1417724593 182370 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: it should fork, like that intercal extension < 1417724699 593826 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for thorough unreadability combine with COBOL copybook like things < 1417724718 685431 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg why didn't i know the flip-flop operator in ruby? < 1417724855 78884 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it isn't in any other languge afaik < 1417724872 631947 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1417724894 50144 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's got a flip-flop operator. < 1417724901 887974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know/remember how similar it is with Ruby's. < 1417724902 31346 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://juliansimioni.com/blog/2014/12/03/deconstructing-fizz-buzz-with-flip-flops-in-ruby/ < 1417724911 598514 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if genius or crazy < 1417724980 105728 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is in PERL. i hve never used it though < 1417725065 186984 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like putting langugae names in all caps. i am writing a thing for school in MATLAB and PYTHON < 1417725078 292189 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like J < 1417725088 201771 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i'm shouting the name of the language < 1417725091 370181 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or APL or INTERCAL < 1417725152 160274 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or RUBY or PHP or OBJECTIVE C < 1417725163 366534 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C PLUS PLUS!!!!! < 1417725321 932767 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any esolang that actually has procedure calls? < 1417725380 123640 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :What defines a procedure call? < 1417725451 278592 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s7 can have them if you code it directly. you can jump anywhere < 1417725484 981344 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL has NEXT which can be used for procedure calls; some implementations also have lectures which is another kind of procedure calls < 1417725488 307854 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :by assigning to the program counter < 1417725531 14512 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rail is very procedural, at least for some definitions of. < 1417725549 116421 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, with parameters and stuff < 1417725585 55288 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL can also use stashed variables so that you can do something like local variables, and also enslaving variables. < 1417725628 458196 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :procedures are a very traditional, un esoteric thing. < 1417725665 430418 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think abstractions in general are a very traditional, un-esoteric thing < 1417725665 719453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Rail doesn't do "parameters and stuff" very explicitly, since it's stack-based, but still. < 1417725672 512423 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :exaclty < 1417725681 434230 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass has methods and all. < 1417725697 156896 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have to write an essay on the difference between call-by-value and call-by-reference and one of my friends dared me to work an esolang in) < 1417725714 261176 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: maybe object disoriented < 1417725761 775926 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe MUMPS? < 1417725863 667391 :dario_!~dario@net-2-33-7-91.cust.dsl.teletu.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1417725873 349145 :dario_!~dario@net-2-33-7-91.cust.dsl.teletu.it PART :#esoteric < 1417725963 905060 :S1!~S1@p4FF93368.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1417725972 402384 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that counts as an esolang < 1417726069 422448 :nys!~Fuzzbucke@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417726316 428626 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funciton has functions that are... hm. I think they're maybe call-by-value, more or less. Maybe it's not the clearest example. I'm not so clear on the evaluation rules of it. < 1417726415 672967 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like you could "assign" anything, you just connect the wires. < 1417727007 481966 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOLCODE is call-by-value, and often considered an esolang, but it's quite boring, and you probably shouldn't promote it. < 1417727020 826861 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1417727029 73544 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fun to read a feature or two < 1417727040 734511 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that it becomes quite boring < 1417727132 17673 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby vs C < 1417727139 381637 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is more confusing < 1417727149 476732 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1417727165 59368 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :using ^ for xor or using .. as a conditional < 1417727185 330014 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the deal of using ^ for xor? < 1417727241 55944 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is one part where scrip7 differs from C. i hate that operator... i used \ but i may change it to something else < 1417727314 85250 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ doesn't sound anything more logical than ^ to me < 1417727353 414774 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well \ was only in ascii so you could make logical operators by doing /\ and \/ < 1417727357 955925 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417727402 437083 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm maybe xor should be x < 1417727493 76389 :adu!~ajr@static-108-48-76-162.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1417727512 417172 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the best notation for xor? < 1417727628 271982 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh what about (+)? < 1417727654 527768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :juxtaposition < 1417727657 26300 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I(+)0xf0f0 < 1417727677 96936 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible idea if you use () somewhere else < 1417727689 637867 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a + b)(+)(c + d) < 1417727693 340705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean ⊕ you should say ⊕. < 1417727700 895095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) looks like non-infix + < 1417727707 578187 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :J just has -: inequality act as xor < 1417727715 310706 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1417727717 361840 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :~: I mean < 1417727737 802396 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no parse tree in this language. all statements are of the form var operator (var or literal) < 1417727749 258235 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are exactly 8 vars < 1417727763 742010 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you actually do have \/ and /\ as operators, clearly the only choice is to use _\/_ then. < 1417727802 865539 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't and anyway \ is a yen sign in my font. < 1417727839 757232 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using c operators except ^ which is pow < 1417727882 597008 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i need a different symbol for xor < 1417727953 46373 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm " ' \ ? @ ` and many letters are not taken < 1417727971 504694 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x'? < 1417727986 73978 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sounds good, i'll use x < 1417727999 920031 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, ixi zeroes i < 1417728031 476047 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are those eight variables called? < 1417728049 397396 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :their notation differs according to type. < 1417728135 853868 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a table in the article. essentially, when variable 0 points to a char it is a, short A, int i, int64 I, pointer p, float u, double U and the variable's address is P < 1417728202 477532 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this continues for six letters, and then the instuction pointer is g/G and the return pointer is h/H < 1417728314 243225 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if P points to a struct{double x,y;int type;} then you can write its members like this: U:4.5 U:3.5 i:3 < 1417728359 710035 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the : operator writes the current object and moves to the next < 1417728469 821703 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: variables can't be named ixi then? < 1417728498 596583 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 8 variables each with 8 or 2 names, each name 1 char < 1417728508 987960 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1417728562 482776 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ixi unabigiously means *(int32_t*)(var[0])^=*(int32_t*)(var[0]); < 1417728687 945236 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1417728697 330637 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i am finished the new version, all shall be made clear < 1417730494 913845 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1417731630 483087 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... i will make everyhting biguous. < 1417731728 829342 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :are base 64 literals a good idea < 1417731730 689619 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1417731819 925755 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for binary data strings that is < 1417732038 958433 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1417733075 415708 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne QUIT :Quit: byeannes < 1417733133 963251 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne JOIN :#esoteric < 1417734375 913417 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My screen sometimes gets this bad: http://i.imgur.com/Pumu3c2.png < 1417734381 324687 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on how it's tilted < 1417734381 881866 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1417734608 329784 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Tag14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41338&oldid=41326 5* 03BCompton 5* (+428) 10/* Sample programs */ < 1417734632 807405 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1417734960 330356 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417735027 733790 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1417735124 114423 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does a screen get that bad? < 1417735135 729109 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1417735662 175179 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is up with MATLAB's keyborad shortcuts? < 1417735667 8634 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1417735715 616332 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does MATLAB use all these crazy letters instead of CTRL-C and CTRL-V? < 1417737162 43103 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1417737464 799843 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1417737590 305477 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I don't know