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00:28:13 <CrazyM4n> I'm trying to refine my documentation
00:28:38 <CrazyM4n> When you input a char, does it take from the STDIN of the whole runtime?
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00:28:44 <CrazyM4n> Or does it just specifically take one char
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00:29:37 <CrazyM4n> As in, if you were to do ",,", and the first time type ab, and the second time type c
00:29:37 <Decensum> What is the document you are trying to refine
00:30:02 <CrazyM4n> (it's my esolang's doc I'm trying to refine)
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00:32:26 <Decensum> Ok so Void linux is pretty good
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00:34:04 <oren> depends on version but i assume it does take newlines.
00:34:12 <AndoDaan> Yeah, but I think you have to pick specifically 10 or...
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00:34:46 <CrazyM4n> Er, I mean as in if you did ",," and just typed "a" and pressed return
00:35:06 <CrazyM4n> Would the second comma give back an \n or would it ask for more input
00:37:58 <oren> except on windows it might give instead \r\n...
00:38:07 <oren> depending on implementation
00:38:38 <oren> text files are still not standard.... stupid unix
00:39:19 <oren> when ascii came out it was supposed to be \r\n but unix wanted to save one char
00:39:32 <CrazyM4n> A char saved is a char earned :P
00:39:37 <oren> for web data it is also \r\n by standard
00:40:00 <Melvar> Part of HTTP I think …
00:40:15 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline
00:40:26 <CrazyM4n> (that sounded really sarcastic. that wasn't supposed to be sarcastic)
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00:40:57 <elliott> Melvar: it's standard for network protocols in general
00:41:11 <elliott> they managed to standardise on the exact things nobody uses
00:41:17 <oren> because on line printers, \r moves to the beginning of line, and \n moves down one line
00:41:36 <elliott> (ok, windows uses \r\n, but not big endian. I doubt there are many big endian \r\n environments in production right now.)
00:41:44 <CrazyM4n> So *that's* why it's called carriage return
00:42:00 <oren> yup it comes from carriages on a typewriter
00:42:25 <oren> and in TTML i'm using the same convention
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00:44:06 <oren> btw, \f is "form feed" and it means "next page"
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01:19:25 <fizzie> \v is a vertical tab, and good luck having it do anything useful anywhere.
01:19:51 <oren> it goes down half a line in TTML: good for writing sub/superscripts
01:21:00 <oren> not in ttml but you could extend it when we get 3d wed environments like is ghost in the shell
01:21:00 <elliott> you could consider pages the third axis, since you stack them
01:21:20 <oren> so then \f is the third axis
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01:42:07 <oren> the expression ((c%32+15)%23+8)%16 converts an ascii hex character c to its hex value
01:43:14 <oren> might be doable in only one mod, add cycle but not sure how
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01:47:51 <oren> right! i knew it must be doable in one mod add cycle (not quite but i'll take it)
01:49:46 <oren> in fact if you only want lowercase then you don't need the |32
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02:13:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttml]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41403&oldid=41382 * Orenwatson * (-46) we don't need hyphens when the format doesn't support autowrapping anyway.
02:15:22 <lifthrasiir> oren: why only green, red and blue (and possibly purple or gold/amber)?
02:15:58 <oren> because in old days having colors meant printing the page once for each color
02:16:49 <lifthrasiir> shouldn't that be cyan, magenta and yellow then?
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02:18:22 <oren> not exactly. each time youprint a page, the page would be printed in a slightly different place. if you printed the page in both red and blue, you'd get two slightly-off letters, with the overlap in purple
02:19:01 <elliott> you don't use green, red and blue ink though
02:19:58 <oren> depends on the printer, as i said old printers you had to physically change the ink cartridge manually for each new color (and change the typeball for each alphabet)
02:20:46 <oren> if you used color mixing you'd hae registration problems due to the teletype's mechanicla tolerances
02:20:49 <elliott> ...but it's still subtractive colour, right?
02:21:51 <oren> not exactly. each color has its own ink. you don't mix colors at all due the problems of getting the teletype to strike the exact same place twice
02:22:08 <oren> (on two different print runs no less)
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02:27:42 <oren> thus it makes sense to only stock inks of the most used colors, especially red and green
02:28:14 <oren> (for financial data, y'know)
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02:31:06 <oren> this is designed to be retro -- not to the 1980's, the 1960's!
02:32:02 <oren> so it has arbitrary limitations
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03:25:22 <CrazyM4n> So I realized my implementation for something i wrote a long time ago was wrong
03:25:34 <CrazyM4n> I looked back at the incorrect code
03:25:41 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/SxFaEhw.png
03:25:51 <CrazyM4n> mfw http://i.imgur.com/CcKQTXg.png
03:27:02 <oren> it isn't one indexed?
03:27:49 <CrazyM4n> drop is 0 indexed, dropFromIndex was some hacky function I made that is one indexed for whatever reason
03:28:17 <oren> so you are TRWTF?
03:29:01 <CrazyM4n> the sad part is that that ended up breaking everything
03:33:07 <CrazyM4n> ... I just can't stop breaking things today
03:33:47 <oren> sometime you have to break the bone before you can set it
03:34:22 <CrazyM4n> I just re-factored some other code a ton just to realize my other implementation worked correctly and this doesn't work because the stack is being popped when I don't want it to be popped
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04:03:18 <oren> http://snag.gy/wFFiC.jpg
04:03:48 <oren> is this worse or better than using comic sans?
04:07:41 <oren> this is the densest font i was able to find that supports japanese
04:08:08 <paul2520> so do you have a preference for dense fonts?
04:08:11 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/ser.html -- Ctrl-F and type something in Chrome
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04:10:41 <oren> paul2520: yes i want more code on my screen (contrary to the picture i usually have like 5 terminals open)
04:11:04 <oren> shachaf: how the heck is it doing that?
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04:16:44 <shachaf> If only web browsers had a feature where you could look at how web pages do what they do.
04:17:40 <oren> just because i can see the code doesn't mean i can understand it, shachaf
04:20:20 <oren> there should be a comedy sketch where neo can see the code, but he doesn't know the matrix's programming language
04:20:40 <CrazyM4n> Looks like chrome leaks data somewhere
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04:20:47 <CrazyM4n> Try scrolling with the scroll bar
04:20:56 <oren> it somehow also works in firefox though
04:21:08 <_AndoDaan_> The actual find text input tabby thingie gets hidden too?
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04:21:21 <oren> in firefox it doesn't
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04:21:40 <oren> but the text you look for still appears
04:21:59 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/sel.html is a version that works only with Firefox.
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04:22:37 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/OGpgqvZ.png in some weird generic Ubuntu Web Browser
04:22:52 <CrazyM4n> (doesn't have a find menu, happens when scrolling)
04:23:33 <oren> what the hell that is a serious security hazard
04:24:13 <oren> could it target your history/other tabs and send it back?
04:24:23 <CrazyM4n> No, gets the current selection
04:24:29 <CrazyM4n> Press ctrl-a to freeze firefox
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05:10:10 <HackEgo> indiagreen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:11:45 <shachaf> I'm not sure relcome is valid for anyone except relrod.
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05:16:10 <oren> GAAAAA burned once again by C's precedence rules!!!!
05:16:30 <oren> and people wonder why i don't like ALGOL dialects
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05:20:33 <lifthrasiir> oh, but it's great that you can write x=a*b+c>>d&~e|f,y=x; in place of x=(((a*b+c)>>d)&~e)|f); y=x;
05:21:21 <oren> that is the opposite of great. bitwise ops should be below math
05:21:54 <oren> (asuming you view the parse tree as reaching down)
05:22:43 <lifthrasiir> (I have to say that, when it is useful in golfing, it is normally useless for other jobs.)
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05:24:05 <oren> that is why scrip7 does not even have a parse tree
05:24:36 <oren> so there is less to memorize
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05:27:11 <oren> well also because it is easier for me to write an implementation ifi don't need to build a parse tree
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05:30:18 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:35:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41404&oldid=41296 * Orenwatson * (+67) uploaded super unstable release
05:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41405&oldid=41404 * Orenwatson * (-26) updated example for super unstable version
05:41:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41406&oldid=41405 * Orenwatson * (+0) updated literals
06:02:27 <Sgeo> My prescription glasses are a gimmick
06:02:35 <Sgeo> They're effectively 3D glasses for the real world
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07:40:19 <Taneb> oooh slist is a thing that is happening
07:40:23 <Taneb> Although looking at the list you mayswell just ping me
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08:31:47 <Sgeo> http://www.introducingcarrot.com/
08:32:55 <oren> generic marketing words
08:34:49 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/jaden_coding
08:39:11 <Sgeo> I want carrots now.
08:40:06 <oren> ha! i don't eat any real vegetables, only fried potatoes and onions
08:41:09 <oren> "want C's safety and BF's readablity? then look no further than scrip7!"
08:44:14 <lifthrasiir> actually, scrip7 seems quite readable compared to BF
08:58:47 <oren> hollerith notation is now implemented
08:58:59 <oren> cause quotes suck
08:59:26 <oren> 13"Hello, World!
09:00:07 <elliott> that doesn't look LR(0), oren
09:00:27 <oren> how is it not? it reads once from left to right?
09:00:51 <oren> there is no backtracking
09:01:18 <elliott> what are your number literals like?
09:02:28 <oren> for integers 1234, for floats 1343.2231, for hex 4%ff = ffffffff. the space at the end of a hex literal is mandatory
09:03:51 <zzo38> Parsing such Hollerith notations would require to know what is previously parsed in order to decide what to do next (actually, I suppose it could be done without but then the parsing table would need to be infinite).
09:04:32 <oren> no it just allocates n bytes and then memcpys the next n bytes into the string
09:04:50 <oren> it does not detect end of code or anything.
09:05:25 <oren> it will copy the next n bytes of memory after the " into the string
09:06:09 <oren> it is effectively one token
09:06:37 <zzo38> It means the parser needs to read the entire number first to know how to do and cannot use an ordinary parsing table or regular expression or anything like that
09:07:35 <zzo38> Actually, I am not entirely sure. Let's see if a LR parsing table can actually do it by itself.
09:08:44 <oren> (note that the interpreter i wrote does not have a lexer or a parser or anything, it is just a ream of ad-hoc code, and therefore things like LR(0) don't really even apply)
09:08:59 <zzo38> Despite this, a manual parser/lexer shoudn't be too difficult to parse this.
09:09:54 <elliott> oren: what I mean is that in 123456789"q you don't know whether the 1 starts a string or number literal until you see the H.
09:10:47 <zzo38> oren: Perhaps it doesn't apply to your implementation (and as you say, it shouldn't!), but still it is meaningful to say whether or not it is LR(0) or whatever, as well as to say token or the byte stream
09:11:59 <oren> hmm can you not define-- string_lit ::= integer_lit '"' binary_data
09:12:39 <oren> no, the lexer needs to be too complex
09:13:05 <oren> and that isn't LR(0).
09:13:10 <zzo38> You are correct that implementation won't work of course.
09:14:38 <oren> hmmmm i don't think hollerith strings are LR(0) which essentially means that the "conceptual complexity" is higher than the "real complexity" because real computers are arbitrarily focused on integers...
09:15:37 <oren> and have primitives for integers that don't appear in regular expressions or general parsers.
09:20:13 <oren> the "real complexity" of parsing a hollerith string involves pointer arithmetic and the expression i=i*10+c-'0' neither of which are primitive to a symbol-based computing environment like a regex
09:26:13 <zzo38> In a combinator parser it might look like: hollerith = (integerLiteral <* quotationMark) >>= thisManyCharacters; See the ">>=" is involved which means it involves "impure action symbols".
09:26:58 <elliott> nothing you said made much sense
09:27:18 <elliott> you're way too focused on details of machine representation when talking about something in the realm of theory...
09:28:28 <oren> ummm... is it wrong to say that regexes work on symbols while real computers in general work on numbers?
09:29:38 <zzo38> Real computers in general work on bits, isn't it? So, you cannot actually use numbers too large to fit in the memory.
09:31:38 <oren> that is a major difference but the difference salient to the problem at hand is that a real computer can compute the value of "43" as an integer and use that to tell how long the string is, while a regex can't (at least not easily).
09:32:09 <oren> so a lexer implemented as general code can do this easily while a lex lexer can't
09:33:06 <oren> that is all i'm saying: regex engines do not have arithmetic
09:33:17 <zzo38> O, that's all, then OK
09:34:40 <zzo38> I still wonder if such a thing would be actually possible though in the unbounded way using such mathematical models as regex or LR or whatever else; another model is Ligature Machine and I wonder if any variants of the Ligature Machine are capable of such thing.
09:46:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41407&oldid=41402 * TomPN * (-35) /* Syntax */
09:47:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41408&oldid=41407 * TomPN * (+52)
09:48:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41409&oldid=41408 * TomPN * (+107)
09:56:08 <oren> in terms of ligature machine, i think key question is given a number in decimal N, can we produce the string of N symbols?
09:56:39 <oren> converting decimal to unary would help considerably
09:57:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41410 * TomPN * (+629) Created page with "'''IDTM''', or Infinite Dimensional Tengwar Meltdown, is an esoteric programming language written by Tom Price-Nicholson in 2014. IDTM draws together ideas from his earlier pr..."
09:59:05 <oren> tengwar are awesome but they are not easily distinguishable...
10:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41411&oldid=41410 * TomPN * (+294)
10:02:13 <oren> "the tengwar language from Lord of the Rings" -- youv'e got to be trolling me, aaaaaaa
10:06:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:IDTM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41412 * Orenwatson * (+125) blahg
10:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41413&oldid=41411 * TomPN * (+912)
10:17:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41414&oldid=41413 * TomPN * (+484)
10:38:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41415&oldid=41414 * TomPN * (+1979)
10:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41416&oldid=41409 * TomPN * (+65) /* See also */
10:39:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41417&oldid=41415 * TomPN * (+100)
10:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41418&oldid=41396 * TomPN * (+67) /* See also */
10:40:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41419&oldid=41397 * TomPN * (+42) /* See also */
10:40:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41420&oldid=41394 * TomPN * (+42) /* See also */
10:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41421&oldid=41398 * TomPN * (+11) /* I */
10:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41422&oldid=41399 * TomPN * (+10) /* Other esolangs */
10:44:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41423&oldid=41417 * TomPN * (+0) /* The Tehtar */
10:44:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41424&oldid=41423 * TomPN * (+0) /* Instructions */
10:49:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TomPN]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41425 * TomPN * (+354) Created page with "Also know as Tom Price-Nicholson. I have created a bunch of esolangs. Here is a list in chronological order: * [[Musical notes]], 2014 * [[Dimensions]], 2014 * Quantum Dim..."
11:08:55 <_AndoDaan> ...And here I am endlessly agonizing over what my first esolang should be.
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11:11:01 <_AndoDaan> cluid, what was your first esolang?
11:13:27 <cluid> i wish i knew, it's probably just boring old brainfuck though
11:14:01 <_AndoDaan> I mean, language that you authored.
11:14:51 <cluid> I haven't created any esolangs
11:15:55 <cluid> I've tried, but I didnt come up with something original yet
11:16:18 <_AndoDaan> Ah, sorry. I would have guessed that you had.
11:16:33 <cluid> this shame consumes me
11:17:03 <cluid> we could coauthor one
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11:18:35 <AndoDaan> hmm, that could be interesting. At the very least it would help knock some ideas around.
11:26:09 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine
11:26:11 <cluid> I want to solve this too
11:27:33 <AndoDaan> Yeah, I saw that earlier. By solve, you mean " User:b_jonas would like to see a proof..."
11:27:43 <cluid> it looks far too difficult though
11:31:22 <AndoDaan> So if the machine is TC equivalent, that would mean it is not possible.
11:35:17 <AndoDaan> hmm, it feels like a 3x+1 function.
11:36:58 <cluid> If you could code a 3x+1 style iteration into it that would be very interesting
11:38:33 <mroobmoobn> I don't remember what my first esolang was
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11:41:25 <Taneb> I know what my first esolang was, and I believe the spec has been lost
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11:51:58 <oerjan> argh the driver died _again_... no wait it suddenly showed up.
11:53:00 <oerjan> except it had an exclamation mark for a moment... and now i'm having trouble with its menu.
11:53:48 <mroman> AndoDaan: http://codepad.org/Xd33Oy5f
11:53:49 <oerjan> ok seems to be working.
11:53:55 <mroman> it was more like something like that
11:54:15 <mroman> No, Burlesque wasn't my first esolang by far :D
11:54:55 <oerjan> Taneb: i have a driver for my touchpad that sometimes dies after hibernating the computer and then my touchpad gets very annoying to use (no scrolling), and the only way i've found to fix it is to reboot windows entirely.
11:55:08 <Taneb> Oooh, I thought you meant like a bus driver
11:55:24 <oerjan> Taneb: no. in fact i rarely take the bus.
11:55:29 <cluid> I just invented an esolang: tree-Brainfuck
11:55:46 <cluid> it has two new operators, PUSH and POP which let you manage a tree of tapes
11:55:55 <cluid> it is much easier to program in than brainfuck
11:56:56 <cluid> if the tape head is here: 0101010101[1]010111 then when you push do stuff and pop, anything left of [] will be retained, but anythig right of [] will be deleted
11:58:35 <elliott> cluid: is this your rite of passage
11:59:15 <cluid> it could be called brainstacks
12:00:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I parsed it as if it was about a person, too.
12:00:52 <oerjan> fizzie: ARE YOU SAYING PERSONS ARE DYING INSIDE MY COMPUTER TDNH
12:01:05 <cluid> hey oerjan have you thouht about mchullochs second machine?
12:01:16 <oerjan> yep, in fact i think i've nearly solved the problem
12:01:38 <fizzie> oerjan: That's what makes it run.
12:02:03 <oerjan> fizzie: always knew computers were fiendish, but...
12:02:33 <oerjan> i think my only remaining case is when there are no 3's and exactly 2 5's
12:02:52 <oerjan> (and whatever 2's and 4's)
12:05:24 <oerjan> the remaining case is somewhat complicated though, e.g. 5252 is immortal but 2525 is not
12:08:14 <oerjan> hm i think 2442 as a substring is equivalent to 2
12:09:26 <oerjan> the first 2 could be prefixed by a 5 say
12:10:02 <oerjan> 5244252 -> 4425244252 -> 5244252 oh hm that case works
12:12:54 <oerjan> 425245 -> 5425 -> 55 hm
12:15:03 <oerjan> 42252245 -> 542252 -> 252252 --> 252252 so it can be immortal even if the second 5 is last
12:16:15 <oerjan> at this point, it's the 4's that seem to complicate matters
12:17:03 <oerjan> anyway, any string iterates either to this stage or to one which is obviously mortal or obviously immortal
12:17:37 <cluid> i wonder how you found that out
12:17:55 <b_jonas> and yes, the 4 definitely complicate the matters, it's the twist.
12:19:37 <oerjan> cluid: the first thing to notice is that if you have a string of the form x ++ y ++ z, then in less than length(x)+length(z) iterations it will either die or get to a string that starts with y or reverse(y)
12:20:16 <oerjan> that's how you prove that strings with digits other than 2,3,4,5 cannot be immortal, for one thing
12:20:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, no, you need some more restrictions to make that precise
12:20:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: are you sure?
12:21:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: x=3, y=2, z=3 is a counterexample, it is immortal but never iterates to a string that starts with y or reverse(y)
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12:23:06 <oerjan> it's that m() will be applied to something of that form
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12:24:39 <oerjan> but it can possibly happen as part of the rule calculating a prefix
12:25:36 <oerjan> so it will start with something of the form [345]* ++ y or [345]* ++ reverse(y)
12:26:05 <oerjan> hopefully that is correct.
12:28:05 <oerjan> anyway, after getting digits outside [2345] out of the way, you can note that if there are 3's in the string, it will get to [345]*3 ++ s. if m(s) doesn't contain 3, then all 3's die; if m(s) _does_ contain 3, then this case is immortal. (because anything of the form ...3...2...3... is immortal)
12:29:54 <oerjan> now the remaining case has only [245]
12:31:16 <oerjan> we count the number of [45]+ blocks in it. if there is just one, it is mortal. if there are three or more, it's immortal. (there's a ...5...2...5...2...5... rule similar to the ...3...2...3... one)
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12:33:04 <oerjan> needs to have at least one 5
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12:36:02 <oerjan> after a few steps of executing these blocks, you either will have merged the result blocks to one (thus mortal), expanded to more than two (thus immortal), or the two remaining blocks can only have one 5 each.
12:37:29 <oerjan> and now it depends a lot on the surrounding pattern of 2's and 4's what happens, it seems.
12:37:53 <oerjan> which i haven't solved yet.
12:51:37 <oerjan> hm i guess this case is hardest precisely because it _doesn't_ blow up trivially.
13:12:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41426&oldid=41421 * TomPN * (+25) /* Q */
13:14:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41427&oldid=41416 * TomPN * (+2) /* Adding tehtar to form instructions */
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13:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41428&oldid=41427 * TomPN * (+10) /* Syntax */
13:27:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41429&oldid=41424 * TomPN * (+33) /* Instructions */
13:28:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41430&oldid=41429 * TomPN * (+0) /* Entropy */
13:40:49 <Sgeo> unsafe { sgeo.attemt_to_get_through_day_without_phone(); ]
13:42:27 <int-e> is that a phone-to-be-called-and-call-people-with, or a phone-with-gps-to-know-where-you-are?
13:43:07 <int-e> which of those is causing you to suffer?
13:43:16 <Sgeo> Although the former is more signficant day to day, latter is going to be significant Friday
13:43:28 <Sgeo> Just in a feeling of safety way
13:43:44 <Sgeo> I don't necessarily use it all the time to keep safe, but like knowing it's there
13:45:01 <Sgeo> It is a phone with what I am guessing is a damaged USB port
13:45:45 <Sgeo> Looked for my old phone, couldn't find it
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14:16:37 <cluid> How did Gosper discover the glider gun?
14:16:53 <cluid> I know that he used an oscilloscope to display/animate GOL
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14:25:25 <b_jonas> oscilloscope was used to animate GoL, but only for simple constructs like the glider
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15:02:57 <cluid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpgA2oCQj9o
15:03:14 <cluid> computing pi in game of life
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16:00:52 <Decensum> If the Finnish border isnt called the Finnish line im done with life
16:01:09 <Decensum> Also C worked thanks for telling me to use that
16:03:03 <cluid> The joke is that finnish line sounds like finish line
16:19:38 <cluid> I can't find a download for Martin Gardner scientific american :(
16:23:52 <Decensum> Idk what Martin garder is so ask someone here
16:25:08 <cluid> Decensum, where do i get martin gardner scientific american?
16:25:41 <cluid> The joke is that technically you are someone here, even though its already clear you dont know the answer
16:41:35 <elliott> Decensum: you're allowed to type "tor"
16:43:50 <elliott> it was crated by the US naval research laboratory and the department of state is a major source of funding, talking about it is unlikely to produce any sirens in the US at least :p
16:44:00 <elliott> *created. *developed, even, whatever
16:44:23 <oerjan> elliott: stop correcting yourself so fast i was going to make an indiana jones joke
16:45:11 <elliott> oerjan: sorry, OCD refuses to cooperate with that request :p
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18:37:40 <oren> any tips on what i'll forget during an algorithm design exam?
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18:49:33 <cluid> brainntree: BF on infinite tree of cells ratger than a tape
18:50:08 <elliott> that actually sounds kind of interesting :/
18:50:25 <elliott> maybe add some way to tie the graph up circularly and then restrict loops somehow
18:50:34 <oren> would need a way to specify the topology of graph
18:50:56 <oren> (in informal sense of "topology")
18:51:42 <oren> like how many edges each vertex has, how many vertices it loops at, ets
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18:52:21 <elliott> I was assuming you'd change the graph structure dynamically as it executes
18:53:15 <oren> oh! then the [ statement would be a fork in the graph
18:53:27 <oren> with a zero and nonzer edge
18:53:52 <elliott> well, I was rather thinking that you'd only get a simple restricted (not TC on a tape) control structure
18:53:59 <elliott> and you'd have to make it TC by tying the graph up appropriately
18:54:32 <elliott> like, only "balanced" loops, but you can change the edges dynamically during the loop
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19:11:14 <oren> which NPC problems are good for reducing problems to?
19:12:56 <oren> *reducing problems from...
19:20:36 <fizzie> Throw a 21-sided die, pick result from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems
19:22:40 <oren> cool. i'll write those down and that will be my aid sheet for algorithms/computability
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19:23:49 <oren> everything else in the course is simple, i just need to know which famous problems are actually known to be NPC
19:23:54 <shachaf> i reduce this problem to deckard cain being trapped in tristram hth
19:24:18 <shachaf> @google which famous problems are actually known to be NPC
19:24:19 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems
19:24:19 <lambdabot> Title: List of NP-complete problems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
19:25:14 <oren> so i can write their names and descriptions down on my aid sheet for the exam. it's lucky that i get to make an aid sheet...
19:26:54 <oren> ooh, subset sum! i forgot that one!
19:28:30 <int-e> sokoban is pspace-complete, so too hard.
19:30:34 <J_Arcane> I noticed there don't seem to be many solvers for those, but perhaps it's just a case of no one knowing about them or bothering.
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20:26:01 <jose__> it's really big the portal, is there some esoteric social network in existence?
20:27:08 <cluid> is anyone good at derivatives of data types?
20:27:34 <zzo38> cluid: What question do you have about it other than that?
20:27:35 <shachaf> i got an AAAA+++++ on my derivatives of data types course
20:28:36 <cluid> zzo38, I'm not sure how to write movement functions for data T a = Branch (T a) a (T a), I have already got data Z a = ZL (Z a) a (T a) | M T T | ZR (T a) a (Z a)
20:29:59 <zzo38> I am not quite sure either
20:30:42 <zzo38> Although the term "M T T" in your definition look like wrong to me, it is the wrong kind, isn't it?
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20:31:22 <cluid> thank for the correction, I've changed it to M (T a) (T a) now
20:32:25 <cluid> ah I thinkn that I have it now
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20:35:42 <zzo38> Now it does look correct to me
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21:15:51 <cluid> my brainfuck interpreter doesnt work :(
21:22:00 <Taneb> I need to find a silly D&D game so I can get this character :(
21:23:22 <cluid> how do I read all the input in haskell?
21:23:27 <zzo38> What character is it exactly?
21:23:43 <zzo38> cluid: You can use "getContents" although that is using lazy I/O
21:24:56 <zzo38> (Lazy I/O makes the IO monad to be impure, I think.)
21:25:31 <zzo38> (The way some kinds of errors are trapped also makes the IO monad to be impure.)
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21:27:45 <cluid> I have implemented a new brainfuck derivative
21:27:59 <cluid> i have to try to write some programs with it that couldn't be done in brainfuck
21:32:44 <zzo38> What are the new features though?
21:33:19 <zzo38> Brainfuck is Turing complete, so it can do any function computable in a Turing machine when using the standard I/O model and not others.
21:33:45 <cluid> zzo38, instead of being based on a right infinite array of cells, it is based on a infinite binary tree
21:34:04 <cluid> so instead of < and > , we have ^ (back) and < > to traverse down left or right branches
21:36:33 <myname> any idea for an esolang that would help children to toy around without a computer?
21:36:50 <Taneb> bitwise cyclic tag>
21:38:25 <cluid> http://lpaste.net/116196
21:38:29 <cluid> Here's an example of this
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21:38:51 <cluid> I can swap two cells by using a third 'outside' one
21:38:59 <cluid> this is not possible in brainfuck
21:40:17 <fizzie> "Not possible" is an awfully heavy statement. You can alternate the tape between "data" cells and spare cells, and do the same.
21:40:49 <cluid> I don't think what im saying is contraversial
21:42:39 <fizzie> It depends on what you mean when you say it, of course. But "not possible" kind of makes it sound like you'd be saying you couldn't e.g. write an interpreter for your thing in brainfuck.
21:42:42 <zzo38> Using such a binary tree may make it far more suitable for some things, although its computation class isn't affected by such.
21:43:02 <cluid> you can write an interpreter for this in brainfuck
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21:43:25 <cluid> Proof: I've implemented it in haskell
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22:00:54 <cluid> I will try to find some things that you can progarm in it shorter than you can do in brainfuck, or other interesting ways it beats brainfuck
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22:05:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41431&oldid=33852 * BCompton * (+48) /* Interpreters */ dead links
22:08:04 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC
22:08:10 <cluid> could it be marked as sub-turing?
22:13:04 <fizzie> That sounds relatively safe. If we had a category for that in general, and not just more specific things?
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22:14:22 <fizzie> (If you even meant a category by "marked", as I assumed.)
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22:20:46 <AndoDaan_> What would "invert the accumulator" meam exactly?
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23:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CrazyM4n]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41432 * CrazyM4n * (+89) created page
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23:06:26 <olsner> the other day being a slow day at work, I got going making a fungot style for our commit messages
23:06:27 <fungot> olsner: he wrote the scheme plugin for irssi? without indentation support and such? compared to windows
23:06:39 <fungot> olsner: there can be no side effects; they _must_ have happened earlier, and maybe scheme48, though i'm not personally aware of them, i'm afraid.
23:11:47 <cluid> The main thing that my brainfuck lets you do is encode temp varibales in bianry (>><><>) rather than unary (>>>>>>>>>>>>)
23:12:00 <cluid> but it has potentially more power, just very hard to use..
23:13:53 <olsner> haven't gotten to try running a fungot instance (lacking an IRC server etc), but oddly enough the instructions in the repo seem to work
23:13:53 <fungot> olsner: 14:25:48 rj: no such file or directory." just like that.) thanks for the tip jonnay
23:16:06 <cluid> its not just temp variablesthough.. you can get a new infinite tree at any point, i dont know how to use that though
23:16:34 <Taneb> olsner, heh, dthey didn't work for fungot
23:16:34 <fungot> Taneb: what about it?) in bingen that are even cheaper... so i might as well
23:18:14 <cluid> what are some programs very hard to write in brainfuck? maybe I can find simple implementations in this
23:18:23 <cluid> that would justify it
23:18:37 <olsner> Taneb: fungot probably can't follow simple instructions
23:18:37 <fungot> olsner: that's where i learned to trigger a page load. ( filename.ss),
23:20:31 <cluid> https://archive.org/ is doing a wikipedia style fundraiser
23:21:08 <cluid> does anyone have an archive of "Keymaker's many brainfuck programs"? http://www.73b.org/
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23:29:05 <fizzie> olsner: I was sure I had still in the instructions the "I have to eat now, I'll document this later" comment, but seems that I only had that online for maybe four years before fixing it.
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23:29:55 <fizzie> (I see it's still missing Appendix A.)
23:30:34 <olsner> I noticed that, but I didn't see any references to Appendix A
23:30:42 <paul2520> If cluid comes back, I found https://github.com/johanvanl/Brainfuck-Interpreter/tree/master/examples/73b
23:30:54 <olsner> what was it meant to contain?
23:30:56 <fizzie> olsner: Step 5, "For format specification, see Appendix A of this document."
23:31:02 <fizzie> olsner: Not terribly crucial, perhaps.
23:31:45 <fizzie> (Also VariKN's new home is https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and it's up to a 1.1 release.)
23:32:41 <olsner> iirc, the instructions explicitly mentioned 1.0.2 though
23:32:51 <fizzie> They do, but not for any particular reason.
23:33:03 <olsner> and it seems to need an old version of gcc to compile
23:33:03 <fizzie> It was the newest version when the instructions were written, is all.
23:33:43 <fizzie> The ARPA n-gram model format is quite standard, chances are a modern VariKN version would work as well.
23:34:38 <fizzie> Also there's some theoretical reason I can't possibly remember why, if the -E option is x, the -D option should be... er, maybe x/2. Or possibly vice versa. Or maybe it was some other factor than 2. But there's a relationship there.
23:38:01 <olsner> one thing I had a problem with was running into the 2 million token(?) limit in the fungot format
23:38:02 <fungot> olsner: as if thats going to be
23:38:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Simplefunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41433&oldid=40413 * CrazyM4n * (+228)
23:38:47 * oerjan finally remembered to find the file for the flaky driver while it was still running
23:38:52 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, you may need to prune rare words.
23:38:56 <olsner> I guess the fnording happens at the last step and the model includes all the singleton tokens?
23:40:26 <fizzie> olsner: Actually, there's no fnording in the model construction if you follow the instructions literally.
23:41:31 <fizzie> olsner: VariKN has vocabulary prune options ("-f N" keeps only the N most common words, and "-d N" drops all words that occur less than N times) that you can use.
23:41:36 <oerjan> to fnord, or not to fnord, that is the question
23:42:09 <fizzie> olsner: From what I recall, though, it actually drops all ngrams where OOV words occur, rather than mapping them to a single OOV token. You'd have to do some manual processing to fnord.
23:42:33 <fizzie> Oh, that's probably not true.
23:42:40 <olsner> is that strictly less than? i.e. -d 1 does nothing and -d 2 removes tokens that only happen once?
23:42:55 <fizzie> Because there's also a -N option that will "remove n-grams containing OOV words".
23:43:11 <fizzie> Maybe I should just try.
23:45:15 <olsner> I think the token count got below the limit after unifying integers, splitting on dashes and underscores and some other mangling
23:45:18 <olsner> (there were something like 100k unique bug numbers referenced)
23:45:37 <fizzie> It seems to be <= instead of <, unlike what the documentation implied.
23:45:49 <fizzie> So "-d 0" will do nothing, and "-d 1" will drop singleton words.
23:47:11 <fizzie> Given the Zipfian distribution you usually get, probably "-d 1" is often enough.
23:48:36 <olsner> Zipf is a pretty good name to have when having things named after yourself
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23:51:25 <fizzie> After some empirical testing, I'd say both the -f and -d options actually do fnord the model.
23:51:35 <olsner> (hmm, wonder what the worst name for that is... like, the name that has the most different things named after it)
23:52:11 <fizzie> Gauss is pretty bad, though often someone else's name gets included to disambiguate.
23:52:15 <fizzie> Still, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Carl_Friedrich_Gauss
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23:56:01 <fizzie> Alternatively, Euler. There's a [[List of things named after Leonhard Euler]], and the general [[Category:Lists of things named after mathematicians]], and its higher-level generalizations (apparently mathematicians are scientists are people).
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23:57:57 <nys> due to a theorem of euler, ...
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