< 1418256488 881702 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!!!!!!!!!! < 1418256611 482571 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1418256682 828665 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, we meet again < 1418256719 349788 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION motions a time out, pause, PAUSE! < 1418256727 635757 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hot pepper. ow. oooow.) < 1418256742 188876 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: pause? no. < 1418256758 429092 :augur!~augur@206-196-186-153.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418256765 683877 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(strawberry jam. mm. mmmmm.) < 1418256798 808365 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: more of a chilli-ng out < 1418256843 267199 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just ate a pizza with tabasco and chili flakes. unlike some people, i can handle the heat < 1418256899 238377 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird%27s_eye_chili < 1418257035 760994 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I grew some piri piri as potted plants this year, looks much the same (but seems to be a different species?) < 1418257098 263012 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's similar, but not the same. < 1418258233 139207 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418258339 745320 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1418259160 903654 :augur!~augur@206-196-186-153.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418259927 849205 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust would make me happier if there weren't so many little details that seem to be undocumented < 1418259945 202091 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the concept of partially moving a value < 1418259997 509334 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concept of partially documenting < 1418260147 162728 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deserves a formal semantics < 1418260207 617817 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418260404 42033 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1418260439 691214 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1418261043 806877 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418261468 829438 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418262201 586335 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418263148 80324 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy QUIT :Quit: Part < 1418263625 209668 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418263668 775390 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418263891 161513 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418264701 799405 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1418264733 583968 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418266789 623538 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1418266873 827628 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418267181 509847 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: PROPANOLOL CHICKEN < 1418267181 764734 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I wire a TV cable so that channel 95 comes from one cable and I can get lower numbered channels from another cable? < 1418267228 518896 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have no need to access higher numbered channels at all.) < 1418267294 149405 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1418267431 323852 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the channels 1-95 all in the same frequence band? < 1418267473 265717 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I only need 3-90 from one cable, not all of them up to 94. I do not know much about exactly what frequency bands and stuff TV cables use < 1418267504 312986 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't need channel 2 either because that channel has gone out of business.) < 1418267562 136537 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 - 90 havent made the transition to digital yet? < 1418267598 500347 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They probably are available in digital too, but I am not using digital service; digital is too slow and cannot be used with VHS. < 1418267733 337504 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no expert, I just played with my vcr and tv setting years ago, but I vague remember being able to tune my vcr to a certain bandwith height, and also use it as a splitter. < 1418267845 796132 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is your aim to just have your tv ignore any channel above 90? < 1418267867 606808 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it is to connect a different device to channel 95 specifically. < 1418267883 649525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that I have no use for the other channels above 90. < 1418267965 185626 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Channels 3-90 come from the television service provider, and I have another device that broadcasts on channel 95, and I don't want to have to switch the cable manually every time. < 1418268060 613239 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, again, not an expert, but plug from the wall to your tv, tv to the vcr, set your vcr to channel 95, and then output from your vcr to chosen device. < 1418268121 606867 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the slim chance that works, you'd have to keep your vcr on channel 95 though. < 1418268153 802280 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but I cannot connect two cable inputs to the VCR. It is actually a VCR/DVD combo, and it isn't actually a TV either but a computer monitor, so only the VCR is used as the tuner. Also, I want to be able to change the channel to other channels in order to watch and record other TV shows. < 1418268288 500232 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's me spent. < 1418268719 852944 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418268806 473621 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418268864 195249 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ping < 1418268923 856227 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418268966 271571 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418269156 830802 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1418269170 79578 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418270302 366821 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1418271208 291542 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1418271741 318399 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418271803 658525 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418271822 231524 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418272021 995995 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1418273152 892763 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1418273204 464003 :AndoDaan_!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1418273629 260011 :Decensum!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq JOIN :#esoteric < 1418273691 980786 :Decensum!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq NICK :Decensum|Zzz < 1418273897 819519 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much danger am I putting myself in if I buy a USB port from eBay? < 1418273913 540203 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind of desparate < 1418273980 321359 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odds are, I'd guess, not much < 1418274002 876177 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any reason you can't buy one from a store or other reputable retailer < 1418274008 349552 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1418274021 875777 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tried going on Amazon, would take around a month to come in < 1418274031 429397 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one on eBay will arrive in days < 1418274058 853243 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you near a physical store that might sell them? < 1418274087 146368 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :and able to get to the store < 1418274092 569576 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would AT&T store be likely to sell such a part? < 1418274107 898311 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might offer to do the repair, but I don't necessarily want to give my phone out < 1418274213 201052 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, could you ring them and ask? < 1418274225 950340 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1418274266 693900 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could walk over there and ask I guess < 1418274268 581501 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomorrow < 1418274308 789102 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418274404 96053 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe listing says 3 available (from this seller which seems to be the best not lucrudiously expensive nearby). What if I wait that day and it runs out < 1418274418 765046 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude just meditate < 1418274430 766915 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats all you need to do < 1418274444 959959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome Farra_000_ < 1418274452 647288 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol thank you < 1418274458 835017 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13Farra_000_: 04Welcome 07to 08the 09international 02hub 06for 13esoteric 04programming 07language 08design 09and 02deployment! 06For 13more 04information, 07check 08out 09our 02wiki: 06. 13(For 04the 07other 08kind 09of 02esoterica, 06try 13#esoteric 04on 07irc.dal.net.) < 1418274478 841239 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, this is a promgramming channel < 1418274550 611403 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meditation is certainly not the only thing that is necessary or possible!!! < 1418274556 6581 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learning computer programming is also good. < 1418274562 149697 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know java and c++ < 1418274581 147604 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not no damn esoteric < 1418274585 572618 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418274589 420335 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's good, but do you know any esoteric programming (such as INTERCAL)? < 1418274616 108655 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL was designed in 1972 by Donald R Woods < 1418274621 772100 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and James M Lyon < 1418274628 864314 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :- Wikipedia :) < 1418274645 144791 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I win a prize? < 1418274663 405973 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course Wikipedia says so; our esolang wiki also mentions it. < 1418274683 653449 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not the one to decide who win the prize or not, but I expect there isn't a prize. < 1418274692 131897 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1418274715 991908 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, i am off in search of other channels where prizes may be awarded. < 1418274717 548325 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Godspeed < 1418274720 269618 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1418274731 935699 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish you all the best in life < 1418274737 676732 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1418274741 369798 :Farra_000_!~Farra_000@cpe-075-183-042-091.triad.res.rr.com PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1418274860 383532 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do stores even -sell- replacement electronic parts? < 1418274866 441485 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to replace the USB port... < 1418274920 528197 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never tried to buy a replacement USB port so I don't know. < 1418274997 468724 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never lived in the country you are in, so I also don't know < 1418275120 384453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never peed < 1418275150 431257 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you may want to fix that < 1418275181 908688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too dangerous < 1418275223 942031 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm writing a plugin for an IRC bot written in Haskell so it has a BF Joust hill < 1418275264 649137 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot? < 1418275267 954954 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1418275285 175533 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BF Joust is somewhat out-of-scope for lambdabot < 1418275322 846605 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's for yukibot, an IRC bot one of my friends is writing < 1418275324 584982 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a desktop you may be able to buy a usb pci card < 1418275354 793147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you implementing the fancy scoring algorithm < 1418275358 772075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did fizzie ever fix that < 1418275371 594104 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I'm basically translating fizzie's code < 1418275375 320837 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't done much yet < 1418275479 561594 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i buy most ofmy electronics at a store in chinatown where everything is cheap and the cashiers don't speak english. < 1418275655 151080 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i know you can get a desktop computer with a usb pci pard in it for less than 120 dollars (canadian) < 1418275746 897438 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I'm trying to be able to charge my phone < 1418275782 455186 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a plug-to-usb adaptor for 3 dollars < 1418275841 567467 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the problem is with the phone.... < 1418275854 430173 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is with the phone. < 1418275877 93044 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :then buy a new phone. 20 dollars. < 1418276015 319721 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is these phones have the usb ports and everything soldered to one plastic board. < 1418276076 902958 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did python update? < 1418276094 840198 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I've found exactly 0 replacement parts such as the one I'm considering buying on eBay? < 1418276122 865495 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it your battery < 1418276127 623349 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was saying the 20 dollar phones are one piece < 1418276129 185308 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you crack it < 1418276143 70479 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the pins in the port are bent < 1418276161 937550 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :try using needlenose pliers < 1418276181 810037 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1418276192 765986 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Micro usb? < 1418276207 80733 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or tweezers < 1418276219 193788 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for a micro oren < 1418276224 210307 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :If thats what it is < 1418276304 286964 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what the difference between micro and mini is, but probably < 1418276353 562556 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the off chance: did you try cleaning the port with vodka? < 1418276403 54595 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1418276486 586465 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should def try cleaning it. use a thin watercolor paintbrush and some strong alcohol such as cheap vodkaor everclear < 1418276555 827498 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pins look bent I think < 1418276570 429052 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just bought the part from eBay. Spent more in shipping than the part itself, to save a few days < 1418276614 108556 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried < 1418276630 52740 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418276641 960138 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting the chsrger back in and trying to slowly bend them back < 1418278721 797982 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Scrip714]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41434&oldid=41406 5* 03Orenwatson 5* (+37) 10hollerith encoding < 1418279225 623978 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418279319 451879 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any fast way to convert floating point to a fraction < 1418279392 979419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what approximation do you want? < 1418279436 141694 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if the user entered a simple fraction it would be converted losslessly back < 1418279496 211046 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if i were to enter 30.0/7 the algorithm would output 30/7 < 1418279644 247748 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realize this requirement isn't defined mathematically... < 1418279646 53547 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My suggestion would be to use a rational type < 1418279653 25550 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of floating point < 1418279669 807003 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the floats are being read out of the memory of a running C program < 1418279708 479558 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floats are scientific notations. Is there any fast way to simplify fractions? < 1418279712 217580 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*notation < 1418279720 822849 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it probably won't show original input so closely < 1418279739 398473 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully close enough < 1418279831 116915 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that the integers of the original fraction are under 16 bits... < 1418279841 479931 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the result of the division is given as a double < 1418279853 15112 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to reverse the division? < 1418280064 36139 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am going to try some ieee hackery < 1418281620 552554 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :making some progress: 3/4->0.75->1572864/2097152 < 1418281657 158873 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 3/4 is represented exactly in floats, isn't it? < 1418281672 410389 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is... so i am trying to extract it better... < 1418281675 871094 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :mantissa of 3 and exponent of -2 < 1418281680 114157 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1418281725 81956 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mantissa is extracted by: ((*(int64_t*)&f)&0x000fffffffffffffLL|0x0010000000000000LL) < 1418281763 26845 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i reduced it to a small nubmer of bits < 1418281798 228864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you doing this... < 1418281808 49609 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to undivide < 1418281818 457569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think that cast violates strict aliasing. not sure though < 1418281835 116153 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatver the cast works < 1418281846 608694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't. not necessarily/ < 1418281852 792070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on compiler optimisations < 1418281855 76609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*neccessarily. < 1418281864 993126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if I'm right) < 1418281899 655012 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works on gcc -O3. < 1418281916 483803 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate programmers like you. < 1418281939 140237 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we think in bits and bytes? < 1418281947 695740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no. not necessarily. undefined behaviour can break depending on billions of other things, like surrounding code, CPU architecture...) < 1418281971 272536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because you don't care when if write code that explicitly violates the standards and can and will break. compilers have only gotten *more* aggressive at exploiting UB < 1418282010 723738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance signed overflow always does the obvious thing even though it's UB, right? < 1418282016 895117 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some unefined behaviour is defined by programmer's conventianl usage < 1418282017 791353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, oops, no, gcc and clang will do optimisations that assume it never happens < 1418282039 399438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance you can do a signed addition and check if it overflows and raise an error if it does, and return the result if not < 1418282048 369711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc and clang will happily optimise out the check but then let it wrap at runtime anyway < 1418282051 410202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because /it is undefined behaviour/ < 1418282069 433187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't write code that obeys the rules of the language you will get burnt, whether "it works right now" or not < 1418282072 148913 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because wrapping is the conventional behaviour < 1418282081 108061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: ...but optimising out the check is not. < 1418282103 959851 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and easiest to implement in a cpu. it is harder to have a check < 1418282111 999023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god, would you listen to what I say? < 1418282134 888672 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe UB just should be banished < 1418282157 229197 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't < 1418282162 371411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: { int c = a + b; if ((a >= 0 && c < a) || (a < 0 || c > b)) { puts("overflow!"); abort(); } do_something_with(c); } < 1418282168 221420 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that I want to do at some point is to write a C implementation which does the worst thing with undefined behaviour < 1418282174 35291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: gcc and clang *can and do* optimise code like this to be the same as { do_something_with(a + b) } < 1418282180 107732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*even if (a + b) overflows in practice* < 1418282188 213694 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Boing? < 1418282200 150739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :relying on undefined behaviour can and will get you burnt, in practice, on programs that have an "obvious conventional meaning" to you. < 1418282224 420409 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when there's no standard, or the standard is ignored half the time? < 1418282228 320589 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck the web < 1418282250 699494 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm trying to use gearlanced for an IRC bot... < 1418282263 134846 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, could I talk to you later < 1418282340 254337 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Oh, poor you. But sure. < 1418282407 821973 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc on overflow does not do the opimization you said elliot < 1418282416 202881 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :even on -O3 < 1418282457 405992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :checkmate < 1418282483 564173 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is defined by convention that 2s complement integers will wrap < 1418282509 747567 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is obvious and easy to implement < 1418282513 89206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: fine, I'll bring up a fucking bug report where it optimises out overflow checks and got closed as WONTFIX < 1418282525 800591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=30475 < 1418282544 960037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say something false that could have been proven wrong by reading that page I'm probably going to be annoyed enough to kick you again < 1418282594 137021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I take no position on whether C *should* be like this but the gcc developers in that bug report are completely correct that this is legal behaviour by the C standard, and this of course suffices as proof that compilers can and do optimisations like this in practice.) < 1418282633 780866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's some more reading material http://blog.regehr.org/archives/213 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/226 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/232 http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html < 1418282708 958632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those do cover strict aliasing) < 1418282826 531586 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a bug. C is a bug. < 1418282842 191436 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has UB too I think :( < 1418283007 80513 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had http://sprunge.us/iRcT as an example of GCC optimizing something by assuming no signed integer wraparound recently. < 1418283052 617299 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust arithmetic overflow is defined, I think < 1418283064 583380 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defined as wrapping iirc, but defined < 1418283079 210601 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418283120 51424 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1418283153 213153 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm still amazed that for the gcc maintainers, performance seems to be more important than security of the existing code base. " < 1418283166 812137 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's C! Stop using C for security. Stop using C for security. Stop using C for security. < 1418283217 286281 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :people used COBOL, Fortran, and indeed C in the defense industry < 1418283236 51997 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think only the parts that are needed to be secure, need to be made secure; most of it needn't need be secure since that is the job of the individual program being written. < 1418283240 60263 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :however they probably have their own compilers < 1418283252 769344 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418283280 146010 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My issue with gcc is that it removes statement THREE. Your argument about undefinedness is about statement TWO. " < 1418283281 305217 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahaha < 1418283296 255557 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess many makefiles will include -fwrap soon < 1418283332 733138 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You certainly can write secure programs in C if you are careful; that isn't a problem. Making careful isn't too difficult; you can avoid buffer overflows and stack overflows if you don't have a buffer or recursive subroutine calls, for example. < 1418283347 716939 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was 2007 < 1418283368 161085 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: It's "-fwrapv", and I highly doubt that. < 1418283368 341498 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know in LLVM it is possible for each instruction to specify whether or not signed wrapping, and whether or not unsigned wrapping, is possible. < 1418283432 68634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: "soon"? gcc has worked this way for an extremely long time. as has clang. < 1418283463 186912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure C compilers have been making assumptions like this since the 90s at the latest, and they've only gotten more aggressive. that bug report is from 2007 and was certainly nothing new at the time. < 1418283465 413087 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: why? it was the 'standard' behaviour for so long no doubt people relied on it... take the guys complaining for example. are they going to change their code or add the flag that gets the behavious they want? < 1418283472 601591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just assumed it was. < 1418283481 704755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :things don't start existing when you become aware of them. < 1418283503 951843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :object permanence trumps arrogance < 1418283537 786067 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/gnHcc4EX this works. gcc only optimizes when it is obvious < 1418283582 103681 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of the time i don't bother checking for overflow at all < 1418283625 225143 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just see it wrap and don't care < 1418283677 208329 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: For the record, that definition for main is also undefined behavior. < 1418283679 982153 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're trying to make talking to you as frustrating as possible by ignoring everything said to you until the evidence is overwhelming enough that you have to accept 1% of the truth and continue vociferously denying the remaining 99%, right? < 1418283720 146691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be nice for everything you know to be the obvious, self-evident truth that you can argue it when someone tries to correct you and not even have your belief shaken next time when you turn out to be wrong < 1418283729 530875 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... use a better language already < 1418283766 215877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no problem with people not knowing things but nothing is more irritating than confidence exceeding that knowledge. < 1418283787 724953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a sin which I've been plenty guilty of over the years, true.) < 1418283790 11948 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway elliot, if gcc does not do what i want then i will change my makefiles or use a different compiler. why are you so mad? < 1418283800 26595 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1418283818 858194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you don't care about how the language you're programming in and the compilers you're using work, no language will save you < 1418283830 288733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is true C makes writing correct programs significantly harder. < 1418283845 416318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to actually care about things to go from that to deciding you'd be better off using something else. < 1418283849 681740 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you still about? < 1418283874 456790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: because you're the second most annoying person in here and I don't like people enroaching on my title < 1418283897 149045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I only talk in here when I feel like venting these days, because it's usually boring) < 1418283937 159231 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :souns good! i actually like reading your tirades < 1418283937 918594 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is it possible to use gearlanced as a library? < 1418283970 148728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :great. it would be nice if you actually listened to them < 1418283996 280202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I like how argv is mega-super-duper-const but argc isn't. < 1418284054 682718 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps legacy code contains code looping backward thru arguments by --argc? < 1418284089 8783 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legacy could could equally well contain code looping forward via ++argv. < 1418284121 14010 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that most programmers in the world are more like oren than like elliott :( < 1418284122 358168 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm not sure what you mean by that, but assuming an abritrary interpretation, you'd probably need to change the code a little bit, since it's designed to be used as an external process. < 1418284147 405316 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I'm not sure if I'm up to that task. < 1418284156 82257 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :For now I'll just use it as an external process. < 1418284182 299308 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo : most programmers are trying to get things done, not achieve mathematical provability and perfect precision < 1418284200 532202 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :blasphemy! < 1418284208 944922 :mitchs_!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1418284211 287994 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it works 99 percent of the time you can do it manuallt he other 1% < 1418284252 195846 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to the real world where COBOL is *still* a thing < 1418284254 340881 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how well-documented is gearlanced's interface? < 1418284271 818293 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I see, in the comments at the top of the file < 1418284286 971482 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: Yeah, I somehow expect that excuse not to work so well when the resulting bugs ends up costing someone money. < 1418284296 148679 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a Java method returns null instead of an empty array when there are no items, and the programmer doesn't realize this, is it the programmer's fault for not reading the docs carefully enough, or Java's fault for providing such a backass stupid method? < 1418284312 673039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can I just kick him again? it's therapeutic. < 1418284322 460881 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :go ahead < 1418284355 145057 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Librarification would probably just entail splitting the three cases of main into separate functions, and fiddling the persistent state into some struct. < 1418284374 81806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the latter, but if the programmer argues not that java is badly designed (which is fair), but that actually the code is okay and they'll keep using it because everyone assumes by convention that the method will return an empty list... < 1418284374 311618 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may do that at some point, but not just now < 1418284410 730544 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie:true. but will it cost more money to fix the bugs or to simply learn to deal? < 1418284438 169061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the code works, it's fine" -> "the code is broken, but it's fine" < 1418284468 583449 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is fine if the cost is less than your salary for the time it will take to fix it < 1418284471 587859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to smirk way more than is reasonable if a type-based alias analysis optimisation breaks your code in this case. < 1418284490 643165 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd pay you to not contribute to any open-source software I might use x_x < 1418284574 34206 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in the case of OSS the cost can't be less than your salary since the salary is often zero < 1418284604 405069 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think e'd fit in with the OpenSSL team < 1418284617 565467 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ok, that's mean to the OpenSSL team, I'm sure... they're not that bad?) < 1418284652 438700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :save me from programmers < 1418284655 824954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I was any good at anything else < 1418284713 6057 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depressing cynicism can be funny! < 1418284720 693267 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the companies that rely on OSS whould pay programmers to work on OSS... or is that already happening? < 1418284725 846843 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how I cope. I find humor in how horrible everything is. < 1418284752 682122 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of think of it as a job perk < 1418284757 20587 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I don't know how common it is, although it does seem like reasonable. < 1418284761 529550 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, there's a certain level of horribleness in your life where that doesn't stop you drowning < 1418284809 303202 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's relatively common for companies to let their progammers commit code they've made back to the project. < 1418284838 789547 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliot: i am willing to write standard-conforming code if i am paid to do so. < 1418284912 330177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, people missing the t from my name hasn't actually annoyed me for years < 1418284914 67485 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :however if the requirements are simply that it works, then my boss will not be happy if i expend extra effort to avoid undefined behaviour. < 1418284920 409032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418284933 101013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :save me from programmers. < 1418284955 302310 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean 'save me from economics' it's the dismal science for a reason < 1418284968 513460 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that comp-sci < 1418284987 255861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god < 1418284996 26365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you keep getting more and more absurd < 1418285006 219758 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1418285030 472425 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably fight back against my boss in that situation < 1418285045 86817 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Product never cares about security, but they should < 1418285096 853777 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that's not really true < 1418285143 512254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, everything sucks and one day each and every nerd will be condemned to the eternal blazing fires of hell, wherein they will maintain a sustained argument that said fires manifestly don't exist and they can't possibly be burning in them < 1418285161 40589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't wait for them to come for me. < 1418285237 121110 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is absurd? you have requirements and you are paid to write a program satisfying business objectives. if business objectives do not include "works every single time and is super-secure" then you do not do that it is a waste of time. instead the solution is "when it doesn't work, call Bob to type it into the DB manually" or something < 1418285297 625172 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually kind of agree with oren. Security is a trade off. < 1418285327 62002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen. listen. jesus has saved me from talking about undefined behaviour in C with you any more, and He could save you too. < 1418285327 887373 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: By the way, getting back to your "compilers only optimize when it's obvious" example: http://sprunge.us/TJcW -- "Hey, your code stopped working when we switched compiler vendors!" "Oh? Well, learn to deal." < 1418285350 924397 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: and there is a tradeoff between my salary and Bob's. < 1418285353 998605 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think the overflow check was quite right, earlier.) < 1418285358 258187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie have you not heard His word < 1418285397 175253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use only the Lord's C Compiler and it never lets me down < 1418285416 576666 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean tcc ? < 1418285428 860093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the Gospel. < 1418285442 585871 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because t is the cross on which He was crucified) < 1418285494 40594 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write "gcc" on an OS X system, it's actually clang. < 1418285499 619390 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, is Product really trustworthy to even comprehend the tradeoff? < 1418285501 872619 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming Apple's Xcode.) < 1418285522 836001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wonder what llvm-gcc does. or that dragonegg thing. < 1418285543 595778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I wasn't paid to do anything but compile a binary on this exact linux box at 2 pm on a tuesday. if that's the only time it works so be it < 1418285571 140111 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't OpenOffice have a bug that printing wouldn't work on Tuesdays? < 1418285584 749532 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliot in all seriousness it is possible for that to be the business requirments < 1418285585 465952 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/08/15/bohrbugs-openoffice-org-wont-print-on-tuesdays/ < 1418285588 883490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now watch for my next trick as I show you my perfectly acceptable C program that exploits a buffer overflow in one version of gcc on one platform to do a bunch of manual printfs to the outputted assembly file < 1418285625 334699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's great < 1418285636 696295 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think these days if you write "as" what you get is 'clang -cc1as' instead. < 1418285721 510832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't think so, they have their own assembler < 1418285727 74882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :% as --version < 1418285727 944232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FATAL:/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/../libexec/as/x86_64/as: I don't understand '-' flag! < 1418285735 496354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :% clang -cc1as --version < 1418285736 536888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM (http://llvm.org/): LLVM version 3.5svn from Apple Clang 6.0 (build 600.0.54) Optimized build. Default target: x86_64-apple-darwin14.0.0 Host CPU: core-avx2 < 1418285761 574078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be a wrapper, but /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/../libexec/as/x86_64/as is a binary, at least < 1418285789 490832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as(1) says as - Mac OS X Mach-O GNU-based assemblers < 1418285825 115218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it uses LLVM under the hood nowadays, though. < 1418285832 820598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly knows about options clang -cc1as doesn't < 1418285941 226332 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly not. I don't have any real OS X systems to test on. < 1418285965 828427 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you also hate people who use compiler-specific extensions? < 1418285968 875727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just came across something that said they "will switch /usr/bin/as to call the clang internal assembler soon". Perhaps it never happened. < 1418286023 990425 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is also undefined behaviour which may change at any time. < 1418286046 722230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: The storm had now definitely abated, and what thunder there was now grumbled over more distant hills, like a man saying "And another thing..." twenty minutes after admitting he's lost the argument. < 1418286114 160625 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did i admit id lost argument? i just accepted you have different objectives from me. < 1418286144 891177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, nobody's perfect < 1418286152 376906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was being charitable < 1418286221 60001 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you like gcc for using undef-behaviour for speed,do you dislike them for creating new constructs that are undefined or even illegal standard c? < 1418286262 53374 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. {label: void q =&&label; ...} < 1418286271 447163 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. {label: void *q =&&label; ...} < 1418286273 906116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I'm not sure how you derived "like" from "I take no position on whether C *should* be like this". < 1418286285 189958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know you can't force me to argue with you even if you keep doing your side of it, right? < 1418286315 224769 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i thought you hated programmers who do stuff that is undefined? < 1418286380 223626 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use some of the GNU extensions; I like ?: with nothing in between, and I like the ability to create zero-length arrays. I also sometimes use function to count how many bits are set. < 1418286392 395213 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric : I hate programmers like you. < 1418286403 102927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: should I be compensating you for your efforts here < 1418286446 424328 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you hate programmers who use gcc extensions too? < 1418286454 41819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm curious, how does (x ?: y) differ from (x || y)? < 1418286509 796335 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that mean? < 1418286528 409821 :mitchs_!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :x?:y seems to turn into x?x:y but i would have assumed it was undefined, just happened to see teebee using it once < 1418286528 603889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x || y) is always 0 or 1. < 1418286536 991474 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it's (x ? x : y) but x is only computed once < 1418286538 984197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1418286549 211639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, C logical operators are pedantic like that < 1418286559 404221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The (x ?: y) acts similar to how (x || y) functions in JavaScript. < 1418286592 434783 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use ?: very much actually, i prefer full if statements < 1418286752 245890 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact, in php 1?1:0?2:3 gives 2, in C it gives 1. < 1418286754 345192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder when Bike left. < 1418287408 401164 :glguy_!~emertens@unaffiliated/glguy JOIN :#esoteric < 1418287743 964349 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418287861 836078 :Decensum|Zzz!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjnrckwnvsrrvqzq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418288072 116897 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418288966 343526 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that? In ZZT, picking up a gem while your health is at 32767 (regardless of how many gems you have), will kill you instantly. However, a program that gives you additional gems or health will not do this. < 1418289257 427798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What will it do? < 1418289502 788054 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What will what do? < 1418289526 117668 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1418289634 928963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A program that gives you additional gems or health. < 1418289880 1688 :glguy_!~emertens@unaffiliated/glguy QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1418289919 205837 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418289936 705431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It simply doesn't adjust the amount of gems/health you have in such a case. < 1418290860 890549 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1418294338 278558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418295592 248234 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418295866 938549 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1418295871 31925 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1418295880 979442 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell0 < 1418295894 977512 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been thinking about this new brainfuck derivative but I can't find anything it's really good for < 1418295960 741431 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :any brainfuck derivative is good for annoying people (even though they don't complain about yet another algol derivative...) < 1418295992 787224 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it gives you more room to use than brainfuck, so it shoudl be able to write some programs more efficiently or much shorter or something < 1418296312 691066 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lpaste.net/116231 < 1418296319 451392 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the language < 1418296350 646533 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can embed any brainfuck program into this language by s/\^/<>>><><>) rather than unary in brainfuck (>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>) < 1418296529 948801 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't too amazing though < 1418296555 693098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: you could run the same language on an arbitrary graph with the condition that every vertex has three edges < 1418296557 6392 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next thing I learned about this language is what elliott said < 1418296575 142184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like doing bf with a wrapping tape < 1418296589 87642 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: what's the tape like? is it an infinite unrooted 3-regular tree? < 1418296594 661011 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes b_ < 1418296595 831156 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes b_jonas < 1418296650 126088 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried to search the existing bf variants for whether this already exists? < 1418296662 237555 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but I dont think it exists < 1418296669 701059 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think that it might exist? how would I check... < 1418296676 701746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :most bf derivatives aren't so fancy to mess with the tape < 1418296679 868317 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are already tons of bf variants < 1418296681 130639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the closest thing I can think of is dimensifuck < 1418296703 246460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives is pretty incomplete I think but it probably has most of the more interesting ones < 1418296714 926249 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what? I think there's a two-tape brainfuck somewhere. or maybe a two-headed brainfuck. I mean, that's sort of an obvious idea. < 1418296716 662410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(people often don't bother to categorise crappy text substitution bf derivatives that pop up I think) < 1418296728 798314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: by closest thing I meant closest to cluid's language < 1418296729 33014 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-35-181.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1418296736 799145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah (doublefuck) < 1418296766 240672 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-35-181.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1418296766 433332 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418296769 905173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ultimate will be when someone makes a dual deadfish + brainfuck derivative < 1418296777 104906 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arborealis (similar but not same), http://esolangs.org/wiki/V (close? danger..) < 1418296779 523712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can permanently feature it and implement it in every language that has ever existed < 1418296781 959438 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a problem with working on a 3-regular tree tape, but why make it a brainfuck variant? can't you do something else on a tape? < 1418296784 446979 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am just glad cluid's language is not called ?fuck for any ? < 1418296812 193407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, V is cool for a bf derivative < 1418296825 93386 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to figure out more than one cool ideas, and put them together, rather than just changing one thing in brainfuck. < 1418296836 685474 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1418296867 784519 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: I implemented this brainfuck derivative using derivatives < 1418296947 857035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: parsing derivatives? < 1418296952 324611 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data T a = B (T a) a (T a) < 1418296955 644107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1418296956 62564 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: hehe. have you also written any programs in that language that can't be just as easily written in brainfuck? < 1418296959 191833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zipper, of course < 1418296962 333349 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Z a = ZL (Z a) a (T a) | M (T a) (T a) | ZR (T a) a (Z a) < 1418296974 970441 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, that's the hard bit, I've been thinking about it all night < 1418297006 22681 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I got so far was tmp variables are much shorter and the point elliott raised, about infinte structures held next to one cell < 1418297018 775170 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking maybe iyou could implement something like game of life much shorter, but then im not sure if you really could < 1418297057 756202 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like this language can improve on brainfuck a lot but only in more complex programs? < 1418297118 909627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, interesting question: out of all the TC esolangs, which are only polynomially slower than, say, C? which are no more than O(n) slower? < 1418297124 990844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just being TC doesn't mean you have the same complexity < 1418297139 422986 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes ais523 good point < 1418297152 739726 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that you say this becaues when ever I say things like this people try to teach me about the turing machines and it's really frustrating < 1418297186 811156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, almost all languages are TC, but nonetheless, some are better than others < 1418297193 176790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 learned about arguing subtleties about tcness the hard way :p < 1418297221 694585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even defining "TC" is hard when you reach the edge cases < 1418297269 521981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to understand the connections between derivatives (of types) and linear types better. < 1418297375 962800 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as you know, many languages are quadratically slower, specifically all tape-based (even multi-tape or multi-head) languages have a quadratic slowdown. < 1418297393 140660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I first noticed with Thutu, which seems O(n) slower than anything else < 1418297399 429495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that BF has to be quadratically slower, though < 1418297402 600872 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fun game could be like a 'boy scouts' thing for esoprogramming. You get a badge for writing a quine, for self interpreter, implement certain algorithm in strange language etc.. < 1418297414 568063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that if you use tape elements only as single bits, it can be linearly slower instead < 1418297427 942268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: #esoteric achievements? < 1418297459 651123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/tlca03.pdf talks about it a bit. < 1418297462 613579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to sleep. < 1418297464 820328 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by quadratically, I mean that there are programs that take O(n) time in, say, C, but require Omega(n^(2-epsilon)) time on brainfuck or even on a multi-head turing machine < 1418297494 367005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, that's what I took you to mean < 1418297508 77583 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, as you know, counter machines (turing machines that can't write the tape) are exponentially slower; counter machines with only two counters are probably doubly exponentially slow. < 1418297525 445813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not 100% sure you're wrong, but I think it's quite likely that all programs that are O(n) in C can be done in O(n^2) in BF, unless there's something obvious I'm missing < 1418297543 761933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, C is a bad example < 1418297550 636973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should pick Scheme or something < 1418297563 794603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C's only TC due to technicalities involving writing to a file and reading it back, due to the existence of sizeof < 1418297598 509429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pick the obvious subset of Python < 1418297601 356605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1418297617 547300 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah... Fortran < 1418297631 777852 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about just measure the complexity of the best algorithm for a given problem < 1418297656 429610 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favourite reference machine is a pointer machine with only immutable cells. This has any number of registers (given by the program) and any number of algebraic data types. < 1418297681 840983 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds pretty cool < 1418297692 922475 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without mutation there is a logarithmetic slowdown though, so that might not be the perfect benchmark < 1418297773 220946 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program has a number of states and four kinds of instructions: (1) halt; (2) allocate a new cell on the heap of the given constructor, filling its cells from registers, then jump to a state; (3) test whether a register contains a value with particular constructor, if it does, unpack it to registers and jump, else jump to somewhere else. < 1418297817 158902 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I upload a implementation of my esolang? < 1418297817 416434 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the input as a linked list in a register, and put the output as a linked list in another register. You could add a register copy instruction for convenience but it's redundant because it can be simulated in two instructions. < 1418297824 960243 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to link to it from the wiki < 1418297836 555850 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been using pastebin < 1418297837 684308 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have it as a 'behind' page would be nice.. if that's ok < 1418297845 121333 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, that is likely to 404 after some time, I linke < 1418297846 211631 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think < 1418297846 439123 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: Does it have a short text source code? If it does, you could just put it to a wiki page. < 1418297848 158075 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shuldnt' trust it < 1418297863 353435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1418297864 535558 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its 90 lines < 1418297874 342952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, huh, the esoteric files archive is on github now < 1418297875 843381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/graue/esofiles < 1418297883 223110 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes its just i dont want to use github < 1418297891 173750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like github eitehr < 1418297894 465848 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: I say put it on the wiki. < 1418297896 157365 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone else puts it on github that would be fine/kind < 1418297898 60773 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok thank you < 1418297908 972601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with other repo hosting sites, I just dislike github in particular < 1418297912 214559 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Provided it's 90 not very long lines.) < 1418297935 818854 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you like gitorious < 1418297937 48396 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1418297943 208446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's my favourite git hoster, right now < 1418297971 748304 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah git is unnecessarily complex to my mind... < 1418297975 420585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: you could put it on a subpage of your user page and link to that or such < 1418297978 538081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite common < 1418297979 408206 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is github better than sourceforge?) < 1418298002 220270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 got crawl to use gitorious and everyone involved has suffered for years because of it :p < 1418298065 366923 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418298219 344202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418298223 412815 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :im giving up on the undivider for now, can't figure out a good heuristic < 1418298228 208093 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418298334 372033 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undivider? < 1418298411 474840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418298413 593671 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose i have a double f which i know came from dividing two small numbers. reproduce the small numbers again. < 1418298420 717510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418298460 167580 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is not necessary to distinguish 3/9 from 1/3... < 1418298465 61560 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: use continuous fractions for that < 1418298483 432261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418298497 191413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418298499 520523 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah let's assume the double came from say a core dump... < 1418298503 610495 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I might have code for that < 1418298533 252129 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1418298536 68522 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :continued fractions < 1418298545 25734 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's what they're called, not "continuous fractions" < 1418298574 416300 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=424519 < 1418298576 609054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the code < 1418298591 349889 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: see there < 1418298594 200717 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks good. < 1418298649 339794 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reference on the theory of how it works, I recommend the ''Concrete Mathematics'' book < 1418298663 1849 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I upload an image to wiki? < 1418298666 202724 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/axDhZce.png < 1418298668 370226 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to use this one < 1418298692 936661 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :under tools, upload file < 1418298712 497176 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Upload (you may have to log in first) < 1418298740 580713 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is the source code 90 lines PLUS and image? < 1418298746 688141 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Cluid Zhasulelm 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Fulbt.png10]]": A picture of a full binary tree < 1418298788 882155 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :source code doesn't include an image i don't think, it is not that kind of language < 1418298864 370231 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A continued fraction would be good < 1418298871 882222 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can take the first fwe terms before you see a very large convergent < 1418298885 999408 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you might or might not be interested in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2014-12-10.2254.html#d.2014-12-10.2254 < 1418298897 430065 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very easy to compute a CF < 1418298915 61684 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take off the integer part and then 1/ in a loop < 1418298930 176056 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: sure, but what I wrote is more numerically stable < 1418298942 844802 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh interesting < 1418298943 167675 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't give as much nonsense when you run out of precision < 1418298948 876089 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not too complicated either < 1418298951 451014 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :il have to look at this < 1418298953 343196 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418299056 712937 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Treehugger14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41436 5* 03Cluid Zhasulelm 5* (+1495) 10created page < 1418299138 210241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: btw one disadvantage of putting implementations on the wiki is that they have to be public domain < 1418299166 49222 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's bad about that? < 1418299199 527761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing unless you like the gpl or whatever < 1418299205 96849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just letting you know < 1418299206 99321 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like GPL a lot but this is fine < 1418299207 410254 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you! < 1418299216 668451 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Treehugger/Implementation14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41437 5* 03Cluid Zhasulelm 5* (+2989) 10Implementation < 1418299226 447892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the GPL in spirit but the implementation isn't great :/ < 1418299234 971835 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone will try writing programs in this I would be interested in what you find < 1418299244 926350 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the code is excellent < 1418299307 867135 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure. but for an esolang, it can be useful to have a readable (non-obfuscated) reference interpreter which is clearer than your description < 1418299337 508137 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: I wonder how hard a self-interpreter would be < 1418299343 120676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be cool to write the tree structure < 1418299351 554061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing fiddly things like parsing makes it unfun though :/ < 1418299394 66728 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Cluid Zhasulelm14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41438&oldid=41295 5* 03Cluid Zhasulelm 5* (+124) 10 < 1418299489 776648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: GPL3 has a much better impl than GPL2; it annoys me a lot when people use GPL2 specifically because they like the bugs, because BSD or Expat or something would probably be a better choice for those people < 1418299497 262493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it could be better still < 1418299508 568292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I just don't like how you get fuzzy definitions of "linking" < 1418299509 256505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the GPL looks good once you're working with the NetHack General Public License < 1418299521 791203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is one of the buggiest licenses ever < 1418299523 732733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where things like static linking can be relevant and stuff < 1418299527 686078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :LGPL is much worse in that respect though < 1418299536 306607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when using GHC, LGPL is equivalent to GPL basically < 1418299542 849051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to invent a comment syntax for NetHack level files purely to comply with the license < 1418299557 590118 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone looks at my page http://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger/Implementation - would you comment? thanks you < 1418299562 558308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's hugely widespread disagreement on lawyers about linking wrt the GPL < 1418299571 45549 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ss < 1418299573 81290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people just prefer to avoid the issue if they can < 1418299577 840131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole libedit controversy, for instance < 1418299607 884764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, I wonder if the FSF position on that is actually correct, in the wake of Oracle v. Google; I hope it isn't, because it's ridiculous) < 1418299609 953595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: I think a "reified" binary tree in this language would look like a 0 or 1 to denote whether it has children < 1418299626 128606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: followed below by either two leaf value slots if not, or a left and right pointer if so < 1418299626 319555 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont understand < 1418299626 965789 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawyers are more expensive than programmers < 1418299634 733379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: if you wanted to represent finite binary trees in this language < 1418299639 69134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the binary trees it has < 1418299640 839171 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean like implementing it in a non lazy language < 1418299643 769377 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea! < 1418299643 958483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I mean < 1418299648 749486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing binary trees inside the language < 1418299650 49250 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1418299651 453079 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1418299655 395366 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree < 1418299658 967451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since I was thinking about a self-interpreter) < 1418299700 717682 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a self interpreter would be really stunning < 1418299724 633091 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a structure like ((*,*),(*,t)) could be used to implement each node of the empulated tree < 1418299728 866988 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you have that tree structure you should be able to write something that descends to an index in it coded as binary < 1418299729 116252 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was shocked how small the best BF interpreter is < 1418299733 886104 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-interpreter < 1418299741 728698 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked up some stuff to get ideas to try out in treehugger < 1418299742 678573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the smallest, you mean? < 1418299745 429196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by moving it into the 0/1 meta slots, chopping off a bit, and then copying the new index down to the appropriate child < 1418299746 163784 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1418299754 433665 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best at smallness :P < 1418299759 626414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-interpreting BF is interesting because of the limited access to data that you have < 1418299763 916160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[^] will ascend all the way up a tree < 1418299780 927675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, BF self-interpretation is obviously eigenratio infinity, right? < 1418299781 119604 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if there is no top < 1418299787 883944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't, but you run into a 0 < 1418299793 8578 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1418299794 569871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't keep your place in both the program and data at the same time < 1418299799 486868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, no, it's O(length of program) < 1418299805 38081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: one thing that's a bit weird is that moving around gets you a penalty < 1418299808 179380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can move the program around as you move the tape pointer around < 1418299814 684596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :massively slow, but not so bad asymptotically as leaving it in place < 1418299828 896505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: like if you're a thousand nodes deep in the reified tape you have to like [^]< down to the program and back again < 1418299851 900843 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as for me, I prefer non-copyleft licenses these days, like the X11 license. I haven't really thought about gpl2 versus gpl3 yet. < 1418299869 972605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why use GPLv3 when AGPLv3 exists? < 1418299879 798705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :agpl is also bug-fixing in the same way < 1418299899 731100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay no I don't even want to talk about licenses on IRC ever again < 1418299907 726852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let's change the topic then < 1418299918 542485 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1418299921 455864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 TOPIC #esoteric :arbitrarily changed topic | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1418300012 893390 :nyuszika7h!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418300101 58724 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some sense, the eigenratio of brainfuck is constant < 1418300102 498840 :nyuszika7h_!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418300136 84188 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you interpret the input program, also take some time to search for a proof that the program state is a brainfuck interpreter applied to a program < 1418300150 363920 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you find such a proof, start interpreting the nested program instead < 1418300207 978017 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, BF self-interpretation is obviously eigenratio infinity, right? <-- i discussed it with that eigenratio guy previously, the _usual_ implementations have something like a^(n^2) growth but i also thought of that moving the program thing which gives an actual eigenratio. < 1418300267 218602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: doesn't that fail in cases where you have a program that's a BF interp, but not provably so? < 1418300283 180285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're talking about the alternative case where you just have an interpreter that recognises and optimizes out itself < 1418300289 694902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that would be pretty handy for Feather < 1418300306 250845 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you write a bf interpreter presumably you know why it is one < 1418300321 936591 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if some bf instructions take longer than others? < 1418300336 783535 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's pretty unlikely. but I wonder if the program would start nested bf interpreters faster than you can prove it's a bf interpreter < 1418300364 355352 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The self-recognition case is degenerate, but any attempt to generalize it would require proof search probably < 1418300365 130508 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, a naive interpreter might take O(n) time to do a [ or ] < 1418300372 596490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: doesn't matter for computational complexity unless some of them are asymptotically slower < 1418300380 133824 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a program could start a bf interpreter parallel to some other task, so you may have to recognize that too. < 1418300388 226473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if [] matching is asymptotically slower on the right variable < 1418300402 668412 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the definition of eigenratio presupposes a tower of (arbitrary) interpreters < 1418300403 262105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a bf interpreter and some fancy performance counters. < 1418300406 584592 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :program size? < 1418300539 978812 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i think a naive interpreter would be O(1) on program size for most instructions but O(n) on program size for [ and ] < 1418300579 648395 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: as i said, i concluded a naive interpreter's "eigentower" grows as O(a^(n^2+...)) < 1418300614 448146 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where n is number of generations and ... is something <=linear < 1418300634 700088 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i guess that's redundant with O() < 1418300647 508424 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418300686 346635 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: note that you're not going to escape using [ and ] for implementing the others, so things definitely go O(n) from second generation < 1418300755 294287 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, you can try tricks that delay it for a finite number of generations, clive gifford tried some < 1418300782 986593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1418300812 155609 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418301016 765533 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :designing an actual moving-program bf self-interpreter that has an eigenratio you can calculate is one of my many vaporware projects. < 1418301024 27526 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418301037 416505 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its eigenratio would be several thousand, at least < 1418301195 816916 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1418301222 224306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: moving program? wouldn't it be rather repeated program? < 1418301308 385933 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, you put the representation of your program between your left and right tape representations, and > and < are implemented by moving the whole program representation < 1418301325 664763 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeating the program would seem overkill in comparison... < 1418301344 301269 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah! < 1418301360 359432 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could work, yes < 1418301635 875190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing that i believe will simplify the actual matrix (by avoiding having a row/column for every possible cell _value_ you operate on) is to let the current cell be either to the left or to the right of the program representation, and not moving across it unnecessarily. < 1418301657 828859 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418301719 202487 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418301757 866762 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just an additional trick, and not necessary to have an eigenratio bound. < 1418301940 19335 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07IDTM14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41439&oldid=41430 5* 03TomPN 5* (+42) 10 < 1418301950 422150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about phi eigenratio got disproved right < 1418301980 601173 :nyuszika7h_!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net NICK :nyuszika7h < 1418301981 793502 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i am concerned my unlambda self-interpreter did that < 1418302048 226169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso? I've forgotten < 1418302055 884934 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has eigenratio 1 < 1418302068 78518 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is nearly entirely metacircular < 1418302137 322080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I mean, so does eval < 1418302147 56841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I mean is "no eigenratios > 1 < phi" < 1418302155 748967 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1418302156 487444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and then arbitrarily branding eigenratio 1 as cheating) < 1418302165 901179 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is phi one? < 1418302180 116141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 < 1418302181 521272 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.618033988749895 < 1418302185 24980 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that < 1418302193 505814 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has that been attained? < 1418302218 445967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but there's some anecdotal evidence/handwavy argument that it might be a lower bound of some sort < 1418302235 951863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://eigenratios.blogspot.co.uk/2007/11/search-for-phi-holy-golden-ratio.html < 1418302250 66342 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought he just picked it beacuse its a nice looking number < 1418302291 532143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a bit more argumentation in that post :p < 1418302302 895581 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it really is a lower bound even in that sense because you can lower the number by having a longer chain of operations that are implemented as a single other. < 1418302305 706791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's more about it "feeling" right than just being pretty, though, I think) < 1418302345 842391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I guess < 1418302348 367869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it to be true though :( < 1418302362 392212 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1418302448 722173 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really annoys me that letter size paper isn't a golden ratio < 1418302488 888134 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know A(n) paper is sqrt(2) ratio for rather elegant reasons, right? < 1418302498 946812 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, golden ratio is a myth hth < 1418302530 741182 :mr45_!~mr45@cpc27-hudd10-2-0-cust346.4-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418302544 87080 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that when you fold the paper in half it has the same proportions < 1418302576 855881 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can print 2^n pages on one page without distortion < 1418302579 515631 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: yes. assuming you're referring to sqrt(2) _not_ golden ratio < 1418302612 628012 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1418302622 69183 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: psst, you can still print 4^n pages < 1418302626 257946 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :golden ratio on the other hand just looks good < 1418302638 367589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or n^2 pages < 1418302646 658098 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you print phi^n pages? < 1418302658 825124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418302663 37206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the golden ratio is literally a myth < 1418302663 823206 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: no because that's never an integer hth < 1418302665 752366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the number doesn't exist < 1418302666 264497 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418302668 410666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete hoax < 1418302675 779707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sqrt(5)+1)/2 has no value < 1418302694 541562 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with golden ratio, you could cut out a square and be left with a piece of paper of the same proportions < 1418302697 447216 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has no value in the rationals hth < 1418302697 627450 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that's useful or not < 1418302699 533570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's used to hide the mathematical errors of the "round globe" fraud hth < 1418302700 881554 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Origamists would probably like golden ratio paper, because you could cut off a square (and use it for folding), and still be left with... < 1418302707 869600 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418302713 746754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: true < 1418302716 18722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: yeah, believing in the golden ratio can only be irrational < 1418302724 931139 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Origamists prefers squares < 1418302740 746281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: I had painstakingly typed all that with a touchscreen and then you scooped it. < 1418302747 856215 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the golden ratio: 1 : 1 < 1418302760 694377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: fizzie: are you competing with me and int-e for redundancy? < 1418302773 311394 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a notebook from mexice which for some reason has square pages < 1418302778 336480 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mexico < 1418302827 979538 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: not fair, I didn't see your line due to disconnect < 1418302840 203039 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oerjan: < 1418302847 511927 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you two have names that are very easy to mistabcomplete into each others' < 1418302851 70794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: _my_ line? < 1418302856 581528 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: *fizzie < 1418302869 316051 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was later. < 1418302882 337691 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine came before fizzie's < 1418302894 303408 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because I wasn't here for the original, I didn't see who said it < 1418302905 938482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: i ... don't think there was one? < 1418302919 561455 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1418302934 45965 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you accusing me of competing with people for redundancy when I was first, then? < 1418302935 645516 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418302946 59083 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i said was that it annoys me that letter size paper isn't a golden ratio < 1418302965 685717 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07IDTM14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41440&oldid=41439 5* 03TomPN 5* (-2) 10/* Syntax */ < 1418302967 281807 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isnt root 2 either... so it is entirely useless < 1418302982 441843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you and fizzie are stealing our redundancy trademark hth < 1418303006 870557 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should it be golden ratio? < 1418303018 834358 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it look better < 1418303021 585850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a myth. a myth! < 1418303021 920103 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it wouldn't < 1418303049 854799 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07IDTM14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41441&oldid=41440 5* 03TomPN 5* (+131) 10 < 1418303069 371511 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the more the merrier, you just have to learn to share. < 1418303080 623823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: NOOOOOOOOOOO sharing < 1418303081 362777 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's compromise on 1.5, then you can fold one big crane and twi small ones. < 1418303173 121497 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how rational of you. < 1418303207 983655 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :8.5/11 is just... stupid. < 1418303220 989368 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a stupid number < 1418303354 703738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the golden ratio is 1/79 < 1418303355 795631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides < 1418303370 429292 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recent reviews of the empirical literature bearing on the claim of special aesthetic significance for this ratio in the context of the perception of simple figures include Green (1995), Hoge (1995), and contributors to a dedicated edition of Empirical Studies of the Arts (Hoge 1997). Some investigators doubt that the golden section has any aesthetic significance, even suggesting that research on it be abandoned < 1418303382 777196 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russel (2000) explored the height to width ratio of a large database of famous paintings and did not find any particular support for a preference for the golden-section < 1418303405 994640 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :McManus (1980) felt that existing empirical research was unable to adequately differentiate preference for the golden-section versus other similar ratios such as 1.5, 1.6 or 1.75. < 1418303412 535781 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boselie F, 1992. "The golden section has no special aesthetic attractivity!" Empirical Studies of the Arts 10 1-18. < 1418303431 732400 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well 8.5/11 is not even close and i hate it < 1418303438 786191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one use I like for the golden ratio is using rotations of (tau/golden ratio) radians around a color wheel to create distinct colors < 1418303464 981580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's irrational, the colours never exactly repeat; and the golden ratio is also quite good at avoiding approximate clashes < 1418303483 227044 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is rigorous mathematics explaining why that works < 1418303496 830335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, obviously < 1418303507 468732 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn ais523 that is what i should have done instead of using rand < 1418303509 886261 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(2) is so much better < 1418303526 627242 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will remeber that trick < 1418303532 590821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: for what, colours? < 1418303535 323136 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1418303543 296271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tau, really :p < 1418303545 969542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the word "damn" looks a little out of place there < 1418303558 46796 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phi has importance in number theory, not `aesthetics` < 1418303563 448143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I go into a rant when people use it, but this time I'm just confused because I can't parse the sentence < 1418303569 255785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wanted "complete circles" < 1418303577 701301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you want me to say? 400 gradians? < 1418303583 71177 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use 2 pi < 1418303596 215439 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is an exclamation of dismay hth < 1418303607 167949 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess complaining about tau is even more a waste of time than using tau in the first place < 1418303609 307519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop hthing, that's oerjan's gimmick < 1418303623 856495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really we just need a "complete cycles" unit of measurement < 1418303624 323780 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps to increase confusion dth? < 1418303633 843396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hertz-seconds, perhaps < 1418303647 517364 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rotations" < 1418303655 260325 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cycles' < 1418303677 862433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hertz = cycles per second, thus hertz-seconds = cycles < 1418303679 456815 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "rotations" has precedent in rpm. < 1418303692 223327 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.shallowsky.com/blog/science/fibonautilus.html < 1418303729 423251 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not a strong argument. But I rarely associate associate Hertz with rotations.) < 1418303771 590394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, tau makes more sense in that context than in most others, because of the actual connotation of "complete rotation" which is its only advantage over pi in the first place < 1418303826 890542 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tau is bad because of the assholes spamming wikipedia with it < 1418303836 173448 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hertz-seconds, the SI definition of numbers < 1418303936 4523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughtilus < 1418304021 720002 :mr45_!~mr45@cpc27-hudd10-2-0-cust346.4-1.cable.virginm.net PART :#esoteric < 1418304038 854375 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm are there any other SI units that can be multiplied to be dimensionless < 1418304058 954615 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. "The cycle per second was a once-common English name for the unit of frequency now known as the hertz." < 1418304117 415602 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Can't all of them? metres per meter, ... < 1418304118 575707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or more interestingly, multiplied to be dimensionless and not equal to 1 < 1418304118 772537 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should have made more of the units be vaguely relevant german organ names < 1418304157 447766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well you have to find the first before you can get the latter < 1418304163 919957 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bequerel is the same as the hertz. < 1418304182 588309 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1418304186 579788 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's s^-1, as decays/time. < 1418304203 881453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: in that case bequerel-seconds also work < 1418304244 189838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A special name was introduced for the reciprocal second (s−1) to represent radioactivity to avoid potentially dangerous mistakes with prefixes. For example, 1 µs−1 could be taken to mean 106 disintegrations per second: 1·(10−6 s)−1 = 106 s−1.[3] Other names considered were hertz (Hz), a special name already in use for the reciprocal second, and fourier (Fr).[3] The hertz is now ... < 1418304246 798157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose radians and steradians... < 1418304250 197524 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... only used for periodic phenomena.[2] Whereas 1 Hz is 1 cycle per second, 1 Bq is 1 aperiodic event per second." < 1418304251 450480 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1418304278 299329 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well there are plenty of secondary units. N = kg m/s^2 < 1418304295 831160 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i mean without using division, obviously < 1418304318 1430 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so you probably need some more rules in the game. < 1418304381 447649 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the rule is to take a list of named units and multiply them, hth < 1418304387 623414 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, arguably second-hertz makes seconds dimensionless just as much as hertz-seconds make hertz. < 1418304566 299000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units#Derived_units contains no negative exponents for mol, K or cd < 1418304614 347180 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq_uptime < 1418304614 578179 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :8d 23h 23m 44s < 1418304628 628405 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The farad-ohm-becquerel is dimensionless, but it's just making use of the same 1/s as before. < 1418304655 30041 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, the farad-ohm makes for a nice name for a second. < 1418304673 775435 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418304693 692248 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: the rule is to take a list of named units and multiply them, hth ← N = kg m Hz Hz < 1418304695 679390 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the ohm-siemens, of course. < 1418304716 724642 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're exactly complementary. < 1418304717 628674 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am annoyed at conductance having units < 1418304720 708521 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callforjudgement: um the result is supposed to be dimensionless hth < 1418304746 486684 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh right < 1418304758 175138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1418304765 129706 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One is V/A and the other is A/V.) < 1418304775 520559 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hertz-farad-ohm would be a good spell invocation < 1418304780 458630 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418304807 517433 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably very painful for the recipient < 1418304835 580012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, farad+ohm gives you an RC circuit, which is one of the simplest ways to make time-sensitive electronics < 1418304855 371263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :put appropriate circuitry around that (an amplifier or inverter or similar), you can probably measure the resulting circuit in hertz or in seconds < 1418305014 147782 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91-rdmsoft [XULRunner 32.0.3/20140923175406] < 1418305020 960079 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Original_Abraham-Bloch_multivibrator_circuit.png < 1418305081 490206 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hehe < 1418305154 96147 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you trying to generate sparks? < 1418305156 366954 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a higher level version, the hertz-farad-henry-ohm < 1418305229 284656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: or obliterating them, only science will tell! < 1418305266 56102 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not dimensionless hth < 1418305268 356061 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so do you think the monks have another of those muses around? < 1418305271 613835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there are a ton of ways to make time-dependent circuits < 1418305277 824537 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hm good question < 1418305286 464878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hook an RC circuit up to anything vaguely amplifier-like, and you'll most commonly get oscillating behaviour < 1418305299 913692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the interesting thing about that circuit is that it was the first to be discovered < 1418305312 727055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there is something somewhat hilarious about the 80 volt battery < 1418305328 810041 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also the voltages are way more impressive than what electronics generally deal with today < 1418305334 659714 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1418305419 711550 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418305422 977469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the voltages used in modern circuits have gone down and down over time < 1418305437 107063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern electronics is about making it still work at lower voltage, because then you get less energy wasted when you make it go faster < 1418305483 827288 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1418305490 344596 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1418305506 771127 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? smart < 1418305507 430384 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1418305607 655130 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about reversible CPUs? < 1418305617 461091 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since information isnt destroryed, it can work with less energy < 1418305628 331265 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might be a big improvement in computing < 1418305691 250956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all quantum computations have to be reversible up to the point you measure the < 1418305692 748113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1418305712 144778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they'd require too much energy < 1418305736 372025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: that was the idea of the pendulum architecture. unfortunately the main cpu lines are just too good for reversible ones to compete (yet!) < 1418305748 580276 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought reversible was just a property of quantum computing < 1418305756 137904 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you elaborate on that "otherwise"? < 1418305817 238312 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd imagine if reversibility gets used it would be in a hybrid way. < 1418305841 986186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: well the theory is, destroying information needs energy < 1418305849 539151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :making as much of the cpu reversible as possible, but preserving overall backwards compatibility < 1418305851 959145 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1418305853 786398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd need to destroy the information in multiple multiverses at once < 1418305855 550417 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is the same principle as i said < 1418305868 579380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as yet, we don't know how to steal information from other potential universes < 1418305880 711142 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question about multiple universes? < 1418305892 202740 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer's_principle for anyone following along < 1418305899 788097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: I'm not an expert in this stuff < 1418305909 878040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it as my A-level coursework, but that's about it < 1418305923 625915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one nice thing about doing coursework on an obscure subject is that it reduces the chance that the person marking it will know the subject < 1418305931 301692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they'll find it harder to find errors in it < 1418305942 10707 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.cise.ufl.edu/research/revcomp/ has a funny slide that implies that reversible computing should begin to matter this decade. < 1418305953 854038 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we don't even know if other universes exist, they might just be a mathematical convention and we'll find some other explanation. < 1418305959 400003 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that's there area of research so I take it with a spoonful of salt < 1418305963 575308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed, definitely < 1418305964 916588 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yuck!) < 1418305978 136760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :salt is tasty < 1418305982 836313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd eat a spoonful of salt < 1418305983 291772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, even if they don't, it seems reasonable that the laws you'd predict from involving multiple universes still work, but for a different reason < 1418305990 672642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I hope it's a very small spoon < 1418305997 343620 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I hope we have a differetn interpretation, the multiple universes thing is really scary to me < 1418306000 424387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends how much you're paying me < 1418306005 739761 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nothing! < 1418306013 256753 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the salt was expensive enough < 1418306020 498717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my point of view, the issue with salt is a) it's added too soon in the cooking process by most people, b) although it tastes nice in small amounts, almost anywhere which salts things will use too much < 1418306036 204115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ooh < 1418306044 679146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, last I looked, unless I completely messed up the calculations, there's more salt in one slice of bread than there is in a packet of ready salted crisps < 1418306053 640739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet the salt tastes much nicer in the crisps < 1418306062 422083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguments about cooking in #esoteric > arguments about programming in #esoteric < 1418306080 375942 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418306089 253977 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry for the typo, this one was unintentional for once. < 1418306094 12419 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hwy is there so much salt in bread < 1418306234 336520 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm the bread I'm currently eating has 1.1g/100g, the chips 2.0g/100g (they're cheese flavoured, not primarily salty.) < 1418306236 188368 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: wait what typo < 1418306243 743525 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: their. < 1418306246 575634 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1418306257 829529 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s ok just say 50 hail marys < 1418306280 33480 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't even catholic. < 1418306320 33571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I have a feeling that the salt-as-only-flavouring crisps actually have lower salt content than the other flavours < 1418306338 73366 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be. I don't like them very much. < 1418306347 950477 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'll have to go to a shop to check the theory. < 1418306384 638949 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i can't swat you for saying "there" when other people are going around saying "hwy" < 1418306441 407296 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hvae more sympathy for "hwy" though ;-) < 1418306443 510413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so basically they are using more salt when they're not paying attention to it? < 1418306526 638459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : RE: YOU’RE PAYMENT NOTIFICATION < 1418306563 541378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that slide seems to be more than a decade old though < 1418306608 633329 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're aware of the "make obvious errors so people to smart to fall for our scame drop out early" theory, i assume < 1418306614 916227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1418306618 392643 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*scam < 1418306621 911401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1418306628 844089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have been the person who introduced #esoteric to it < 1418306632 646935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you prob... right < 1418306640 838906 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what scam < 1418306646 360016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I received an email that looked a huge amount like a Facebook friend request reminder, but I'm not on Facebook and have never heard of the person who sent it < 1418306656 840864 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1418306671 550151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: basically nearly all spam scams look hilariously bad to intelligent people < 1418306690 683539 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I believe sites loke facebook still send email like that asking you to join and friend or whatever, even if you're not joined yet. < 1418306693 36155 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the theory is that this is intentional because they _don't_ want intelligent people < 1418306707 588731 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want really, really gullible ones < 1418306839 102041 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and desparate, I suppose < 1418306878 739780 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desperate < 1418307250 678220 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Though even the Landauer limit is millions of times below the energy consumption of modern computers." < 1418307265 52524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm guessing it might not be this decade, then. < 1418307303 769240 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have high level reversible programming languages and efficient compilers to reversible instruction sets < 1418307314 844580 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware has been fabricated too < 1418307343 17822 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that they won't see the need for it this decade < 1418307384 120968 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's still 3 decades of moore's law before we hit that limit < 1418307408 963370 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only millions? are we that close already? < 1418307420 884442 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just one of those riddiculous understatements/ < 1418307457 224997 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Theoretically, room‑temperature computer memory operating at the Landauer limit could be changed at a rate of one billion bits per second with only 2.85 trillionths of a watt of power being expended in the memory media. Modern computers use millions of times as much energy." < 1418307539 744487 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do the math (because i'm too lazy) < 1418307582 105334 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt that just mean we could improve things by a lot? < 1418307620 342113 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the implication that the reversible stuff would only improve by such a tiny fraction of whats already wasyed? < 1418307655 22426 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: well my implication is that they won't change to an entirely new method of doing things while the methods they are good at still work < 1418307683 44503 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because incremental improvement is much cheaper than complete revamping < 1418307687 141860 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gues we wont see reversible computers :( < 1418307697 52354 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its very interesting technolofy < 1418307758 140939 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. desperate typography channel. < 1418307797 473368 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should ask fizzie to do some typo graphing < 1418308018 264347 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418308025 837445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1418308028 510764 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418308329 194513 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue at all what the trade-offs are for reversible computing implementations. I imagine they have higher circuit complexity, larger circuit area, probably longer critical paths, thus lower possible clock frequencies. This has to be weighed against just taking an irreversible circuit and underclocking it, which often allows one to decrease voltages, which also reduces consumed power? Tricky. < 1418308377 370391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also you have to store all the unused bits somewhere < 1418308390 505102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most "TC in reversible computing" constructions use a bitbucket < 1418308411 274567 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I imagine that we don't need new production processes though, "only" different software for the process above up to mask preparation. < 1418308517 814229 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean "TC in reversible computing" < 1418308569 749595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: you have a reversible language, and want to compile to it from a TC language < 1418308575 606729 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1418308580 980896 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think tromp knows about this, < 1418308588 738439 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it requires some garbage < 1418308618 274575 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is also a notion of 'reversibly turing complete' which involves simulating reversible turing machines no garbage < 1418308642 419329 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The architecture doesn't have to be completely reversible anyway. Reducing the number of destroyed bits from 1/2 per transistor and cycle to a couple of thousands or even millions per cycle should help a lot. < 1418308698 160784 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that's pure speculation on my part. < 1418308771 206391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :scarf < 1418308792 905632 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418308937 823308 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nice PCP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dec_SYSTEM_BUILDING_BLOCKS_1103.jpg < 1418309019 519653 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418309034 729408 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaah < 1418309035 822172 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCB < 1418309069 738188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering. < 1418309100 631810 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a PCB for the PDP 1) < 1418309133 372306 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very cool < 1418309159 803422 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad there are pictures. I like preserving our history. < 1418309189 204655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the fact that someone decapped a 6502 and scanned it with an electron microscope < 1418309203 131477 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :source? < 1418309204 340113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we now know for a fact exactly how it works < 1418309212 535910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bleh, it was a news aggregator and years ago < 1418309216 342453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my chance of finding it now is quite low < 1418309216 849323 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1418309226 550762 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://visual6502.org/wiki/ , http://visual6502.org/ < 1418309228 797229 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1418309230 601359 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :paul2520: ^ < 1418309238 78349 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's amazing < 1418309240 301792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :asking in #esoteric can be a decent way, though < 1418309244 472630 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well done. I was about to search < 1418309266 923127 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're also trying other chips. they've done one simliar size chip completely, and have some progress in larger chips < 1418309290 874891 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, there's further progress < 1418309299 612664 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they've finished with the motorola 6800 < 1418309300 542037 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1418309332 682470 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is beautiful. I now have desktop backgrounds for life < 1418309403 394372 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1418309435 528207 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a photo from my brother's wedding as desktop background, but that's not a sustainable plan for life because he won't have more weddings < 1418309529 308846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it could be arranged. < 1418309624 419533 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you could just stick to that background image forever < 1418309640 963092 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: like what? polymorph him to a pudding, split him with an iron weapon, polymorph both of them back, hope the clone gets married? < 1418309657 866208 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's dangerous because he could polymorph to an exploding monster < 1418309666 10025 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that would be an option. normal people just get a divorce. < 1418309667 704961 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also very expensive < 1418309672 140626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i think you're suffering from evil imagination deficiency hth < 1418309687 747574 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i guess it might not actually be suffering.) < 1418309709 737729 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The legality of splitting one's brother in two with an iron weapon seems dubious < 1418309715 734844 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm omitting another obvious possibility for obvious reasons.) < 1418309762 940461 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: actually it's possible b_jonas's problem is he's living inside Nethack < 1418309768 185225 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: he's not human while polymorphed so it's less illegal < 1418309796 575720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we post from #esoteric to the #nethack qdb? < 1418309797 346057 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you split too hard, it's still murder. < 1418309827 876916 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: not unless he is a priest or something like that, no < 1418309832 684281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: use a dull, rusty, iron weapon that's corroded down to -3 then < 1418309841 584146 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's not a problem as long as nobody gets hurt. < 1418309842 860327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use a stethoscope first to make sure that the brother still has at least two hitpoints < 1418309849 477090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, stethoscope first < 1418309859 212168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure he's fully healed < 1418309926 959740 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you cut a cube in two, won't you get cuboids? < 1418309934 632827 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, am i the only one here who _isn't_ living inside nethack < 1418309957 524366 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no?! < 1418309971 862629 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: pudding, not gelatinous cube < 1418309976 567528 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: nethack: command not found < 1418309988 370166 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`nethack < 1418309988 923535 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nethack: not found < 1418309990 877090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nethack < 1418309991 549030 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1418309996 718622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm more busy manipulating the laws of NetHack to my whim < 1418310017 891400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: good, good < 1418310022 613522 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I've tried the game, didn't get into it. < 1418310066 773030 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you get into other video games instead? other fantasy themed games (possibly not video but tabletop) instead? < 1418310258 637557 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there are some video games. Sokoban and Lemmings were early favorites, and Lucas Arts adventures. (The Sierra ones, not so much, I hated dying all the time.) < 1418310282 522475 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I should really say Lucasfilm adventures. < 1418310286 218272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: on the subject of NetHack and Sokoban, NetHack inspired me to start working on a Sokoban generator < 1418310302 183877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was years ago, and I ended up downloading a bunch of Sokoban-related stuff for research, then becoming a level designer for Enigma < 1418310310 722523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and recently, the Sokoban generator is actually near-complete < 1418310328 262046 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418310333 880050 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hated dying all the time" -- ah, so that's why you don't like nethack. ok. < 1418310363 79607 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, that's a big part of it. < 1418310371 32384 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd actually like to try to design levels for a game different from sokoban that can be embedded in nethack sort of like sokoban < 1418310383 620406 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure that will work, and don't hold your breath < 1418310469 900976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the embed of Sokoban into NetHack is awkward < 1418310488 935926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I also got sokogen to generate puzzles for NetHack boulder physics (i.e. without the restrictions that make it work like Sokoban) < 1418310522 162129 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, what I'm thinking of also needs special code. < 1418310531 722852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're thinking of something in particular? < 1418310540 799536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just "what games can we simulate with NetHack physics"? < 1418310545 904655 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I have a particular idea for a game, but it might not actually work. < 1418310551 785750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :submit it to /dev/null :-) < 1418310557 734948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/null/nethack, that is < 1418310558 781664 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that, it might not be a game for which it's possible to design interesting levels. < 1418310563 727628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the character special file < 1418310567 366041 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) no < 1418310717 893883 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, i would play your sokoban generated levels < 1418310750 902564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the generator isn't quite finished yet < 1418310755 23310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if I can make levels, I'm not sure it's a good fit for nethack still. < 1418310758 220312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can generate /parts/ of levels, but not connect them together yet < 1418310773 992092 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds very interesting! < 1418310780 943072 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen other generated sokoban levels? I know one set < 1418310847 660006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just compiling it now < 1418310855 595749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll give you a part of a level to solve once it's done < 1418310881 373505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suddenly realised that I should probably keep this permanently checked out, rather than in a branch of NH4 < 1418310944 670176 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote listen. listen. jesus has saved me from talking about undefined behaviour in C with you any more, and He could save you too. < 1418310946 801972 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1225) listen. listen. jesus has saved me from talking about undefined behaviour in C with you any more, and He could save you too. < 1418310952 436615 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418311571 389888 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo " you play too much nethack when: you look down both sides of the corridor, start to sweat and then realize you're looking at your email address" >wisdom/nethack < 1418311573 180502 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418311666 717250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nethack < 1418311667 612033 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ you play too much nethack when: you look down both sides of the corridor, start to sweat and then realize you're looking at your email address < 1418312067 534625 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1418312816 558078 :S1!~S1@p4FF92E52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1418313065 476202 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418313653 449847 :atslash!~atslash@92.242.56.219 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418313886 296376 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1418314204 689349 :atslash!~atslash@92.242.56.219 QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418314443 638281 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Numeric might actually win for once... < 1418314539 698564 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll probably be proven wrong. < 1418314841 980251 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if so we'll be two hth < 1418315033 945055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So nasty to make it just one past 36. < 1418315045 400716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1418315058 811865 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nasty to put lower case letters before A < 1418315083 605165 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> filter isAlphaNum [' '..] < 1418315084 752607 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : "0123456789ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz\170\178\179\... < 1418315102 153042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well haskell's builtins don't support beyond 16 anyhow < 1418315129 93293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: isAlphaNum requires another import, anyhow < 1418315135 870408 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lauuxcwtpkhnqeko JOIN :#esoteric < 1418315138 660821 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Burlesque does support bases up to 36 < 1418315145 185167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 12357 36B! < 1418315145 424624 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | "9j9" < 1418315148 564263 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 12357 37B! < 1418315148 803693 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | That line gave me an error < 1418315166 370027 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It supports also higher bases as long as it doesn't encounter any digit above 36. :p < 1418315178 899801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fancy < 1418315181 552658 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 12345 37B! {just fine}vv < 1418315181 733052 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : | "90o" < 1418315191 821794 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know, it wouldn't really help. But it's still nasty :P < 1418315237 307369 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 276088010547702691069957 < 1418315238 596066 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 276088010547702691069957 < 1418315240 356035 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1418315249 606193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> logBase 2 276088010547702691069957 < 1418315250 899670 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: in the meantime, cojna figured out the identity matrix thing. I have no clue. < 1418315251 91897 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 77.86947442093677 < 1418315256 942426 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1418315263 483381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i haven't really tried that one < 1418315280 67662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also nasty: going too high for Int < 1418315326 489801 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes. that's the deciding factor for Numeric atm. < 1418315498 793138 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418315517 945482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat < 1418315541 906030 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what wat? < 1418315594 56417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried submitting that anyhow and it gave a stack space error < 1418315623 925917 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-1) `div` 37 < 1418315625 341214 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1 < 1418315641 678721 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1418315669 874444 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in Haskell, infinite recursion tends to do that :) < 1418315683 598436 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03QuackQuack 5* 10New user account < 1418315689 233187 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1201688513203::Int32 < 1418315690 297611 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : -902329677 < 1418315695 199557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1418315713 346054 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked in my ghci because that's 64 bits, presumably < 1418316459 756155 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Show a => a -> Doc < 1418316461 204676 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH.Ppr showtextl :: Show a => a -> Doc < 1418316461 445905 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH.Ppr ppr :: Ppr a => a -> Doc < 1418316461 446030 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH ppr :: Ppr a => a -> Doc < 1418316763 395810 :atslash!~atslash@92.242.56.219 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418317359 127824 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any common program that would buffer all data it receives (in RAM and/or temporary file) and only open the file specified for writing and dump data there upon EOF of input? < 1418317424 233315 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm... I wonder if you could abuse a program like that, < 1418317457 982769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what happens if you connect stdbuf to cat, with a very large buffer size? < 1418317460 213306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be easy if you asked for only _writing_ when it gets eof, but if it has to only _open_ the output file it might be harder < 1418317466 18955 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, it's called 'sponge'. < 1418317470 885653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah, oh right < 1418317475 294498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that breaks the stdbuf method < 1418317510 986606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sponge reads standard input and writes it out to the specified file. Unlike a shell redirect, sponge soaks up all its input before opening the output file. This allows constricting pipelines that read from and write to the same file." < 1418317514 460621 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, tail -n 999 might work for large values of 999 < 1418317527 197444 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if "constricting" is a typo, or just some sort of a pun. < 1418317543 438200 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: probably a pun < 1418317559 970384 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it both constricts the pipe and lets you construct the pipeline < 1418317586 772559 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have such a "sponge" program on my computer; is there a Windows version available? (I want Linux version too if it is so that when working on Linux I can use it too) < 1418317652 653888 :glguy!~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy JOIN :#esoteric < 1418317665 305392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Debian has it in a package called "moreutils". < 1418317699 282580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about a Windows version, and "sponge windows" just finds things related to cleaning windows. < 1418317702 871584 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how about something like: perl -e "local$/;binmode STDIN;$d=;open$o,q(>:raw),$ARGV[0]or die qq(error open: $!);print$o$d or die qq(error write: $!);close$o or die qq(error close: $!);" outpufilename < 1418317769 698989 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1418317778 502992 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418318080 993297 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418318159 248400 :atslash!~atslash@92.242.56.219 QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418318273 453822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418318291 442941 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1418318374 341371 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418318524 70781 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-otriuvwyaalklvca QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418318735 328476 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418318854 468175 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418318998 490589 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418319236 324631 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418319587 924481 :augur!~augur@206-196-184-32.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418319831 371591 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1418319839 959865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418319851 328082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418319908 363724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1418320348 711745 :tswett_!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418320378 335586 :tswett_!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1418320766 210821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1418320778 482696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418321158 557094 :S1!~S1@p4FF92E52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1418321285 238115 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably a dumb question, but is there a "technical" name for whatever type of grammar you would need to parse TECO? In TECO, there is no delimitation, everything is one string, white space is not significant except in escaped strings. < 1418321306 690861 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to parse it you have to go in order < 1418321349 171425 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commands can have modifiers which are sometimes special characters like a hyphen, and other times letters < 1418321374 863092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the lexical analysis is context-sensitive" might be what you're looking for? < 1418321460 931521 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably < 1418321497 508327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL has that problem < 1418321502 552544 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm trying to play around with writing a TECO interpreter, but the lexical analysis stage is incredibly tedious. < 1418321533 400317 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't look like something like FLEX would really be able to handle TECO (though I could be wrong) < 1418321554 840163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a restriction to make it LALR(1)-parseable (which is in the original manual): if something could be interpreted either as a close paren or an open paren based on the text so far, it's an close paren even if that leads to a syntax error and an open paren would parse correctly < 1418321581 378356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that the parser needs to tell the lexer what sort of sparkears could close a group < 1418321617 484046 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sparkears" ? < 1418321632 183918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :diginet: INTERCAL has undirected parentheses < 1418321637 528703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :' to ' (spark), or " to " (ears) < 1418321652 385044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are various ways to make this unambiguous, such as always alternating < 1418321660 175748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but INTERCAL allows you to be ambiguous so long as you're unambiguous < 1418321727 103618 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1418321767 242782 :MoALTz!~no@user-164-126-125-56.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1418321801 182879 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that is awful < 1418321835 17881 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when you say parentheses, do you mean this as a generalized term to refer to things that "open and close" like (), {}, '', ""? < 1418321853 99052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :diginet: this is for precedence override in expressions, just like what parentheses do normally < 1418321864 461613 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oohhhhhh < 1418321866 882557 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1418321903 581571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! intercal DO .1 <- #15~'#2~#7' DO READ OUT .1 < 1418321904 314619 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found < 1418321910 274205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have an INTERCALbot here? < 1418321918 415394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls bin/*intercal* < 1418321919 541373 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access bin/*intercal*: No such file or directory < 1418321922 237311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls ibin/*intercal* < 1418321923 9506 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ibin/cintercal \ ibin/clcintercal < 1418321925 948983 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hope INTERCALbot is written in intercal lol < 1418321928 809870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, we have C-INTERCAL < 1418321935 889691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means I can do a better example < 1418321946 79825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CLC-INTERCAL's harder to type because of all the non-ASCII characters) < 1418321980 709273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #5$'#6$#7' DO .2 <- '#5$#6'$#7 DO READ OUT .1 + .2 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418321983 295932 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! \ ON THE WAY TO 1 \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1418321990 698034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, we have C-INTERCAL but it's broken < 1418322043 456236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ibin/cintercal -u < 1418322044 269901 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! \ ON THE WAY TO 1 \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1418322056 914400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how do I pass arguments to that < 1418322062 285086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file ibin/cintercal < 1418322064 783111 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ibin/cintercal: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable < 1418322066 371327 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pleaese can I read the IOCCC entries now < 1418322070 841358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat ibin/cintercal < 1418322071 503554 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file ./interps/c-intercal/c-intercal < 1418322081 721960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ./interps/c-intercal/c-intercal -u < 1418322082 640150 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp: missing destination file operand after `/tmp/290.i' \ Try `cp --help' for more information. \ ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! \ ON THE WAY TO 1 \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1418322094 660012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat interps/c-intercal/c-intercal < 1418322095 301696 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ INTERCAL="`dirname $0`/inst" \ \ cp "$1" /tmp/$$.i \ $INTERCAL/bin/ick /tmp/$$.i \ if [ -e /tmp/$$ ] \ then \ /tmp/$$ \ fi \ rm -f /tmp/$$.i /tmp/$$ < 1418322114 638284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/ick -u < 1418322115 249479 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to open '/home/gregor/projects/hackbot/multibot_cmds/env/interps/c-intercal/inst/share/ick-0.29/ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/../lib/ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'interps/c-in < 1418322145 436851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` pwd < 1418322146 52556 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv < 1418322164 544095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think that first entry indicates what's wrong < 1418322168 989111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixing it may be harder < 1418322199 255094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the potential solutions involve recompiling C-INTERCAL, making the HackEgo directory structure match the EgoBot directory structure exacly, or hex-ediing the binary < 1418322202 75015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these seem awkward < 1418322382 248493 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418322397 181769 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418322462 736401 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418322473 782037 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418322589 558736 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418322677 606020 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln -s /home / < 1418322679 886492 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s /home / < 1418322681 215522 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln: failed to create symbolic link `/home': File exists < 1418322688 765644 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -la /home < 1418322689 447900 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 0 \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Dec 11 18:30 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Dec 11 18:30 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Dec 11 18:30 hackbot < 1418322695 709963 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s / /home < 1418322696 322161 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln: failed to create symbolic link `/home/': File exists < 1418322714 748195 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -lad /home < 1418322715 470057 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Dec 11 18:30 /home < 1418322880 512832 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` find -name ick-wrap* interps/c-intercal < 1418322881 554117 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :find: paths must precede expression: interps/c-intercal \ Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression] < 1418322895 665759 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` find interps/c-intercal -name ick-wrap* < 1418322896 269284 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps/c-intercal/inst/share/ick-0.29/ick-wrap.c \ interps/c-intercal/src/ick-wrap.c < 1418322967 374278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the problem is that the binary hardcodes the source and build directories, and looks for the files it needs in those and in the current directory and binary's directory < 1418322976 330667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the binary was copied from a system with a different filesystem layout < 1418322992 738798 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s ../share/ick-0.29/ick-wrap.c interps/c-intercal/inst/bin < 1418322994 312496 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418323009 227942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ooh, clever < 1418323014 842695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/ick -u < 1418323015 519284 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to open '/home/gregor/projects/hackbot/multibot_cmds/env/interps/c-intercal/inst/share/ick-0.29/ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'ick-wrap.c'... \ Failed! \ Trying to open 'interps/c-intercal/inst/bin/ick-wrap.c'... \ Success! < 1418323025 938978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's not the only file that needs symlinking < 1418323032 805245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll probably work for a simple program < 1418323041 748390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #5$'#6$#7' DO .2 <- '#5$#6'$#7 DO READ OUT .1 + .2 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418323047 468859 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/299.c:14:20: fatal error: fiddle.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated. < 1418323072 416826 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cd interps/c-intercal/inst/bin; echo * < 1418323073 549776 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :convickt ick ick-wrap.c < 1418323074 584397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, it compiles to C, just the runtime support (libick and its dev headers) is missing < 1418323115 612433 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wasn't sure whether we had write access there) < 1418323158 285212 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cd /tmp; echo *.c < 1418323158 965447 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*.c < 1418323170 958256 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` find interps/c-intercal -name fiddle.h < 1418323171 593548 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps/c-intercal/inst/include/ick-0.29/fiddle.h \ interps/c-intercal/src/fiddle.h < 1418323232 452717 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` find interps/c-intercal -name *.a < 1418323233 201754 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps/c-intercal/libyuk.a \ interps/c-intercal/libick.a \ interps/c-intercal/inst/lib/libyuk.a \ interps/c-intercal/inst/lib/libick.a \ interps/c-intercal/inst/lib/libickec.a \ interps/c-intercal/inst/lib/libickmt.a \ interps/c-intercal/libidiot.a \ interps/c-intercal/libickec.a \ interps/c-intercal/libickmt.a < 1418323283 796254 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` pwd < 1418323284 473244 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv < 1418323286 444 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m2MLBGuu < 1418323298 307698 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only union you'll ever need < 1418323339 721619 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -lad /usr/include < 1418323340 516784 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :drwxr-xr-x 35 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 /usr/include < 1418323365 245140 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/include/ick-0.29 /usr/include # hmm < 1418323365 777456 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln: failed to create symbolic link `/usr/include/ick-0.29': Read-only file system < 1418323539 120439 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1418323636 512137 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm nvm i'm missing some of the types from stdint.h < 1418323721 609159 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` sed -i 1a"export CFLAGS=-I/hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/include/ick-0.29" interps/c-intercal/c-intercal < 1418323724 647554 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418323736 417431 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #5$'#6$#7' DO .2 <- '#5$#6'$#7 DO READ OUT .1 + .2 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418323737 711869 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/299.c:14:20: fatal error: fiddle.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated. < 1418323794 368193 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/include < 1418323795 56082 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick-0.29 < 1418323825 332919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: maybe something isn't respecting CFLAGS? < 1418323832 969316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think either ick or gcc parse it < 1418323847 740879 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1418323852 114142 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1418323857 174825 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1418323876 914571 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting that this is handled by autoconf and make. < 1418323937 695223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the trick is to place a wrapper around gcc somewhere that ick will find it? < 1418324104 860608 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` sed -i 1a"export CPATH=/hackenv/interps/c-intercal/inst/include/ick-0.29" interps/c-intercal/c-intercal < 1418324106 505215 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418324112 357156 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #5$'#6$#7' DO .2 <- '#5$#6'$#7 DO READ OUT .1 + .2 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418324115 759105 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ MCCCXCV \ \ MMDCXXI < 1418324141 495819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, I think it's working < 1418324145 601078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second number should be larger, at least < 1418324151 246052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all we need to fix is syslib < 1418324159 70028 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anone know a place i could ask about and get help on algorithms? < 1418324165 54757 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from knuth < 1418324168 994850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #1 DO .2 <- #1 DO (1000) NEXT DO READ OUT .3 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418324169 866222 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICL127I SAYING 'ABRACADABRA' WITHOUT A MAGIC WAND WON'T DO YOU ANY GOOD \ ON THE WAY TO THE CLOSET \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1418324184 654493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure how to get -u to complain about that with this setup < 1418324194 540343 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so does the symlink-to-bin-dir work for that, too? < 1418324198 438172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it should < 1418324203 181562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :file name is syslib.i < 1418324235 670095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are various other wrappers too but I don't think there's any way to get ick to use them without command-line args that `! cintercal never uses < 1418324290 696111 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cd interps/c-intercal/inst/bin; ln -s ../share/ick-0.29/* . < 1418324292 281878 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln: failed to create symbolic link `./ick-wrap.c': File exists < 1418324321 154535 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- #1 DO .2 <- #1 DO (1000) NEXT DO READ OUT .3 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1418324323 648619 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ II < 1418324329 59858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the correct answer < 1418324347 31090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm amused at your nuclear solution to doing the symlinks, but it seems to work < 1418324413 148897 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :RESUBNIT? NIT??? < 1418324423 652000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: that typo has been preserved for well over a decade < 1418324432 426829 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1418324433 294973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every now and then someone tries to fix it and we have to revert them < 1418324443 451629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure why it caught on, but it did < 1418324514 937999 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i am working on a nuclear solution to elliott's problems with my pointer casting, by using a giant union of every type that exists. this is guaranteed to work according to gcc. < 1418324532 926057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1418324536 535262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is safe is to use memcpy < 1418324547 888605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by going through (char *) < 1418324552 301354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is explicitly allowed by the standard < 1418324555 835880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc gives better guarantees on unions than the C standard does < 1418324559 783155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1418324560 500023 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc allows you to use a union -- it's a GNU extension < 1418324570 602833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but why would you make a big union when memcpy is easier and more portable... < 1418324617 214843 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmm....to avoid the copy? < 1418324623 434364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what about types which have a comparable size to your address space? < 1418324624 825709 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :eaxtcly < 1418324654 366698 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*every non-array, non-struct type that exists < 1418324687 545242 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw I'm surprised that just setting CPATH worked, I expected that I'd have to set the LIBRARY_PATH variable as well. < 1418324693 183368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think that is one thing I trust compilers with. :p < 1418324718 943404 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wouldn't. < 1418324728 166444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang has special knowledge of memcpy, at least. < 1418324728 607130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: my guess is that oren learned about how computers work from ~30 year old books, or books whose authors learned from books that old < 1418324729 425256 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :memcpy to the same place will check? i would expect it to screw up the value < 1418324731 39086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure gcc does too < 1418324761 625921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: double x; uint64_t y; memcpy((char *) &y, (char *) &x, sizeof y); < 1418324762 235070 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in every other instance where the src and dest overlap it does < 1418324771 140649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure those casts are necessary. < 1418324773 484432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're not. < 1418324783 940424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as opposed to casting straight to void * < 1418324804 875606 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: I would probably ask such a question here first, actually, but there must be general programming and algorithm channels somewhere. < 1418324816 441250 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it is a copy. in asm i can access any place as any type why should i make my c code slower? < 1418324819 308607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I will give you like a billionth of a bitcoin if gcc -O3 and clang -O3 don't optimise that out to essentially y = x < 1418324824 649452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lord < 1418324846 120696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll never fix your mental model of things if you keep treating C as something that maps directly and simply to assembly < 1418324851 669737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you take a time machine back a few decades < 1418324876 153963 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: naaah, all we need to take back a few decades is the compiler. < 1418324909 380510 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use a less complex contemporary compiler < 1418324915 243066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but that way we still have to listen to oren < 1418324922 160365 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... < 1418324949 719723 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would suggest /ingore but then elliott would demonstrate /kick < 1418324961 354342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on, that was a good spur of the moment quip < 1418324962 738043 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418324972 786576 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ah, typos. you can love them or hate them, but not get rid of them. < 1418324979 473616 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what to you expect in 39 seconds < 1418324986 216739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's kind of a lot of time :/ < 1418325031 871673 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, C compilers do lots of crazy things. < 1418325105 866511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I'm not saying C's annoying edges for systems programming is a good thing, although a lot of the things people assume will work are actually broken for good reasons. a language that maps directly to the hardware wouldn't look like assembly either, though < 1418325163 167282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : movsd %xmm0, 8(%rsp) < 1418325164 591245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : movq 8(%rsp), %rdx < 1418325167 347247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I tried it out < 1418325191 21663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems that gcc optimizes out the memcpy, but has to bounce the value off memory to convert it from a double to a uint64_t < 1418325208 364293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any other sort of assignment would work better, though? < 1418325211 208277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try with the union < 1418325236 749729 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a move instruction from %xmm0 to %rdx? < 1418325277 21171 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86_64's instruction set is far from consistent < 1418325286 159331 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't know < 1418325294 978553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get exactly the same code for the assignment as I did for the memcpy < 1418325311 776472 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instruction might be missing from the set? < 1418325312 437388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the output asm are completely identical apart from where the filename appears in the debug info < 1418325326 284168 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay thanks int-e < 1418325330 439282 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'll use memcpy thanx for the help < 1418325331 923642 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what the point of dancing links was < 1418325333 257356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, basically, elliott is right < 1418325339 248175 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is! < 1418325340 958802 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ams.org/samplings/feature-column/fcarc-kanoodle < 1418325343 146261 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read about it there < 1418325346 809479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the result I thought I'd get before testing, but best to make sure < 1418325358 972509 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answr is it lets ou use less memory, but it still seems a bit stupid < 1418325393 408134 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if youre trying to solve a pentomino problem, why not generate pentominos rather than build a huge big matrix and cross things off? < 1418325499 857082 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define db2u64(x) ({uint64_t u;memcpy(&u,&x,8);u;}) < 1418325570 534033 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 has this historical separation of CPU and FPU, with no direct transfer of values (but with a direct transfer of flags for comparisons). And MMX SSE and so on all happen to extend the FPU. < 1418325585 152659 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :;u;; < 1418325587 295181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/;$// < 1418325609 221010 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah int-e i knew it! < 1418325619 435454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: which dates back from the time when the x86 and x87 were actually separate chips, IIRC < 1418325624 914507 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1418325663 191323 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so inconsistent... i like the 6502's instruction set for its consistency < 1418325665 711557 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :movq %xmm0, %rax < 1418325714 868272 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any one know knuth dancing links < 1418325728 453534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably knuth does < 1418325734 409523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can find examples elsewhere < 1418325734 792227 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but he isnt here < 1418325745 263473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've received emails from knuth's secretary, it was weird < 1418325759 53281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he doesn't write them himself, which IMO is entirely reasonable) < 1418325762 905306 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only got one, asking for my middle name. < 1418325769 773188 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes a busy guy < 1418325803 981573 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :he writes program books and doesnt afraid of anything < 1418325810 869621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :knuth should be here < 1418325818 753708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be horrible < 1418325842 478318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer it if not < 1418325856 458103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, better would be if he just turned up, asked a quickly answered INTERCAL question < 1418325858 531380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :got the answer, and left < 1418325870 540608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re "copy", when this came up in ##c last (it comes up quite often), GCC generated absolutely identical code to the three common "reinterpret the bits" approaches (the *(x*)&y one, the union { x a; y b; } one and the memcpy one). < 1418325871 410729 :oren!~oren@user3-215-53.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Quit: eating a chicken < 1418325881 737685 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ais523 already tested all three, though. < 1418325881 958845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ideally he'd turn up, get `welcomed, and turn out to be looking for the other kind of esoteric < 1418325887 213893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I didn't test the first one < 1418325888 298701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and leave < 1418325896 431078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the best knuth/#esoteric interaction I can think of < 1418325911 659097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I think you broke me < 1418325925 938466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I literally am having problems imagining that < 1418325981 355988 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/316.html < 1418325997 728701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a weird subdomain < 1418326031 618212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Middle name for what? < 1418326091 596779 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1418326092 622464 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Some list of authors I presumed. I don't even know whether I made it. < 1418326126 606756 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418326170 331740 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1418326196 833171 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please send me ALL your names, even if you don't customarily use them! They will appear only in the index, where many of my readers have said they enjoy seeing esoteric information like this." < 1418326231 71313 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :He lost my name once. :-( < 1418326286 60155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Needless to say, the employee responsible for this glitch has been sacked." < 1418326554 126929 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1418327361 596367 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To be fair, "bham.ac.uk" is pretty weird too. And the whole deal with ultra-abbreviated names. < 1418327408 547017 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly something like www-cs-bham.ac.uk would be weirder.) < 1418327450 746340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we had a wwwcs. or www-cs. or cswww. or some other such subdomain at the university. < 1418327507 635582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But it was just for "strange stuff", not for any high-profile webserver.) < 1418327555 655500 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1418327614 709472 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu strange at all < 1418327630 849046 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-077-173-086.088.077.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :At my university, www-it.math.… is a thing. < 1418327728 18629 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/316.html works too < 1418327761 573606 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and www.cs.... < 1418327785 222745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what "uno" is. < 1418327824 646176 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/programs/dance.w < 1418327864 973619 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its C with weird @ signs everywhere < 1418327865 977328 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks knuth < 1418327973 955742 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB, which makes sense, since it's in the web. < 1418327992 155094 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :to weave, or to tangle... < 1418328024 667178 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his code seems about 6x shorter than mine < 1418328106 5230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: weird @ signs everywhere and it has its own macro system < 1418328111 610599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its own nonlinear text expansion facility < 1418328119 377507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rainbow ~*~literate programming~*~ < 1418328143 442359 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0011047 "The first trick is to implement each assumption of the search with reversible local operations on doubly linked lists. By this trick, every step of the search affects the data incrementally" < 1418328150 75385 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418328157 487103 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1418328164 795064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaat < 1418328167 522980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rainwords ~*~literate programming~*~ < 1418328175 31132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will be underwhelming < 1418328189 602593 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the author reports excellent performance for his algorithm for some familiar puzzles. These include tiling a hexagon by 19 hexiamonds and the N queens problem for N up to 18 < 1418328198 66697 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1418328209 679234 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1418328213 751014 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo x < 1418328214 757061 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1418328227 315257 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo abcde | rainbow < 1418328227 595307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: the most simultaneous queens england has ever had at once is 7 so that's a comfortable scalability margin for solving the problem < 1418328228 212516 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​0502a11bc12d02e04 < 1418328237 839335 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418328238 691541 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418328245 366379 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :04~08*09~11l12i13t04e08r09a11t12e 13p04r08o09g11r12a13m04m08i09n11g12~13*04~ hth < 1418328257 28933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithm decides which queen to keep and which ones to sacrifice < 1418328264 425900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like easter calculation < 1418328268 819770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :goes back centuries < 1418328287 624367 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course it's a filter kind of a thing. < 1418328308 496763 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^rainbow does this still work? < 1418328308 726792 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :02d03o04e05s06 07t08h09i02s03 04s05t06i07l08l09 02w03o04r05k06?07 < 1418328310 61566 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't there a clever way for commands to be both kinds of things? < 1418328323 700155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That rainbow is kind of gloomy. < 1418328335 264865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer {cheerful} rainbows. < 1418328338 272749 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1418328342 468058 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer 04c08h09e11e12r13f04u08l rainbows. < 1418328346 834065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't work very well. < 1418328347 14279 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check $# and see if you got any arguments < 1418328347 647069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's limited to one-character color codes. < 1418328364 774316 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed "clever way" meant something cleverer than DIY. < 1418328376 994096 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rainbow look extra cheerful for me < 1418328404 661061 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has that <> thing that's either stdin or the *contents* of the files named as command line arguments, but it's not quite the same as taking command-line data instead. < 1418328444 665948 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show rainbow < 1418328446 579987 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :+3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,] < 1418328507 465189 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that run-length encoded brainfuck < 1418328512 786374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d3o4e5s6 7t8h9i2s3 4s5t6i7l8l9 2w3o4r5k6? < 1418328515 270217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d3o4e5s6 7t8h9i2s3 4s5t6i7l8l9 2w3o4r5k6? < 1418328518 503904 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks liek brainfuck + numeric constants < 1418328525 204390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There you go, much more cheerful and only a one-character difference. < 1418328526 383831 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see brainfuck + named variables on the wiki too < 1418328538 536473 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a run-length encoding thing, yes. < 1418328546 129002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(putting a ^B at the beginning) < 1418328552 688561 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^rainbow does this still work? < 1418328554 128826 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0203d04o05e06s07 08t09h02i03s04 05s06t07i08l09l02 03w04o05r06k07? < 1418328570 976022 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call "languages" like that that are just used to describe a thing? < 1418328575 837827 :singingboyo!~g8p8@deas.ugrad.cs.ubc.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want befunge with functions. how that'd work... who knows! < 1418328576 457070 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the aren't supposed to be a real language < 1418328596 777282 :singingboyo!~g8p8@deas.ugrad.cs.ubc.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: flowerpots? < 1418328607 696670 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1418328634 109613 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... perhaps declarative programming < 1418328687 231756 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, it's a lower-level representation of the bytecode fungot's ^bf uses internally. < 1418328689 298971 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they probably know better than to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme and enter your paste. it is really needed < 1418328703 517360 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418328771 285028 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It has six instructions, each of which has an argument field, two of which ignore their argument.) < 1418328826 558858 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although that was probably unnecessary to explain, given how literate the fungot sources are.) < 1418328829 199818 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: any ideas about how config files and other extensions.) refer to? ( as said, so far three puzzles none of which is being used by these orgs now"... < 1418328883 617797 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1418328887 60510 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1418328893 473965 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418328911 414195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got fungot < 1418328913 950494 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: care to take a huge detour from fnord to mit to read sicp this semester. the prof is doing every 15 minutes and didn't even bother checking if fnord was declared to return the whole ( loop thing specifically intended for that? < 1418328924 478140 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh noes, is there a cure? < 1418328935 602763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried to read a sentence as if it was intended to make sense < 1418328987 496401 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, fungot put a space on both sides of ( there, but istr the perl scripts had code to put such punctuation at the start/end of the next/last word < 1418328989 673347 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: as i said, it can < 1418328997 681459 :singingboyo!~g8p8@deas.ugrad.cs.ubc.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, so fungot gives you a (senseless) sentence every time you mention it? learn something new every day haha < 1418329000 588273 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :singingboyo: 7 greasemonkey: daemon idle_10 bf8. i < 1418329113 927139 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.73.138 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1418329130 265969 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coudl anyone turn a .w file into C for me please? < 1418329136 450329 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/programs/dance.w this one < 1418329225 603153 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/utopic/man1/cweb.1.html < 1418329314 904806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth has such an odd style of writing C. < 1418329321 717796 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so actually pentominos is not best solved by dancing links < 1418329323 565589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even disregarding the literate programming thing. < 1418329334 154840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe I shouldn't be disregarding it. But either way. < 1418329408 352545 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can gard it, it doesn't need to be regarded. < 1418329447 132487 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca NICK :__oren__ < 1418329459 911553 :__oren__!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey look iim a c99 thing < 1418329476 201493 :__oren__!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a gnu extension < 1418329499 935971 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-077-173-086.088.077.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tugs on __oren__’s proboscis. < 1418329501 411746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 would be _Oren. < 1418329512 820138 :__oren__!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right right < 1418329531 448626 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418329538 980441 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the best algoirtmh to pack shapes with pentominos? < 1418329592 621943 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1418329600 707754 :__oren__!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort ofshapes? < 1418329621 143626 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gp.home.xs4all.nl/PolyominoSolver/Polyomino.html like these < 1418329622 934148 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: btw did you see the esolang I invented? < 1418329632 578990 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-239.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1418329652 404295 :__oren__!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, looks original and i like that you didn't name it *fuck < 1418329658 281852 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah i remember you said that < 1418329670 905072 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-239.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1418329671 123387 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418330026 251589 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418330210 923348 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.halley.cc/ed/linux/scripts/quine.html < 1418330393 406803 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: The Perl scripts, sure, because it was easier to implement in Perl than in Befunge. < 1418330401 477296 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: The Perl scripts maintain balanced punctuation, too. < 1418330407 414425 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found that if the set to be covered is small, DLX isn't all that good; it's better to use bitmasks. Then, when selecting a mask from the list of remaining candidates, copy the list of candidates, filtering out those that collide with the selected mask. < 1418330422 283461 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: (It's on the TODO list to fix at least the spacing.) < 1418330456 496670 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that this usually uses less memory and accesses memory in a linear fashion, making it well suited for modern CPUs and their caches. < 1418330502 106548 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But DLX will be better if each bit is only covered by a few possible masks (rows). < 1418330696 891262 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, I thought this would be better even without bitmasking - then I noticed it will use more memory (but that is probably okay) < 1418330725 867065 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418331403 960079 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1418331532 604565 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1418332642 449827 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1418332661 474713 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1418333661 959927 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1418334276 876613 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418335080 36316 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1418335592 482443 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418335699 808963 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1418336323 211761 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice golfing challenge at http://www.reddit.com/r/tinycode/comments/2o6jqu/ascii_connect_4_in_124_bytes_of_c/ < 1418336352 322057 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :see my latest reply in there < 1418336601 70664 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W(n){return b[c]&b[c+n]&b[c+n*2]&b[c+n*3];} lol damn < 1418336606 547565 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's crazy < 1418336674 4727 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a straightforward test of 4 in a row:) < 1418338069 756704 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow how did you get Collatz parity so slow... < 1418338182 319924 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418338292 377835 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a lookup table, perhaps. < 1418338430 998845 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1418338504 725857 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418338526 691993 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonsoily < 1418338563 322290 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonsai? < 1418338577 805305 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-evening < 1418338586 628759 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't think I did anything special. < 1418338587 935679 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bon sœrjan. < 1418338594 523554 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bont-esoir. < 1418338603 374690 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bon soizzie. < 1418338636 263037 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what is today's tldr? I won't be able to stay long tonight hth < 1418338738 55727 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418338745 829053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It does involve 512*64 things, that's a big number. Anyway, I'm faster than GolfScript. < 1418338874 194937 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i joined 2 minutes before you so it's a bit early to say < 1418338917 607814 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm. python is slow, too, perhaps you're right. < 1418339051 326451 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: All languages can't be such mean, lean murder-machines like Haskell. < 1418339070 234231 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Darkgamma/SB314]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41442 5* 03Darkgamma 5* (+46) 10Created page with "Modernised Brainfuck using Unicode and colour?" < 1418339095 809890 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskull < 1418339109 391791 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskill < 1418339114 947753 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh. so it's a vsdr... oh well. be back in a... uhm... future? < 1418339127 25549 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: YEARLY CHICKEN < 1418339144 775863 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he left without explaining his acronym. fiendish. < 1418339196 435258 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :very silly december racoon < 1418339215 132064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ah, of course. < 1418339240 788999 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :verne from over the hedge in christmas mood, i bet < 1418339263 660768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1418339268 273544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong animal < 1418339270 281953 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modernised Brainfuck using Unicode and colour? < 1418339286 319106 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*RJ < 1418339304 944919 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we seem to be approaching the bf derivative singularity. < 1418339328 733672 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how about "very short, did(n't) read." < 1418339368 80046 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but the logs are long and i haven't finished them < 1418339379 320866 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's crazy talk hth < 1418339423 647338 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you didn't mention the logs and boily may have temporarily forgotten that you catch up on those < 1418339463 279282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikia's article on verne has the word "deuteragonist" < 1418339510 34951 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the protagonist of a side story, right? < 1418339519 621802 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Homestuck's Karkat? < 1418339543 605829 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but doing things completely naively, I get 0.05s with python for the collatz parity (according to the performance check on anagol). < 1418339581 847953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: pretty sure it means "second main character" < 1418339595 87169 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that is a better definition < 1418339595 653520 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Darkgamma/SB314]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41443&oldid=41442 5* 03Darkgamma 5* (+152) 10 < 1418339604 177102 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, like Homestuck's Karkat < 1418339608 70945 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :proton vs. deuteron < 1418339628 131106 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's when using 'eval' that python becomes slow. < 1418339833 600619 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm guessing it's a stack rotation #r I do to work around the lack of Forth "-rot" (there's x/ aka rot, but not to the other direction), I guess rotating an up-to-64-element linked list isn't all that fast. < 1418339921 411004 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not. < 1418339971 774978 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know. It's 0.65s locally with #r and 0.75s with x/x/. < 1418340036 740941 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is an eval (an EvalMany, actually) in there, but I don't think that's a major thing in Burlesque. < 1418340044 917373 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly a profiler is needed. < 1418340125 685436 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An earlier C!-based version was 0.45s locally.) < 1418340456 488110 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. another "loop unrolling" and python takes almost 10 seconds... (time: 9.736676sec) < 1418340582 934947 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :E! is listed to be defined as .*\[e! (aka "repeat, concatenate, eval") so it's quite unrolly too. < 1418340674 84439 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418340768 746018 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418340928 55620 :axelcsep!~Android@1F2E3536.catv.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418341524 842557 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric