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00:00:46 <fizzie> Oh, and the student MATLAB license is only 35/69 eur, so maybe the calculator isn't unequivocally cheaper.
00:00:50 <oren> llvm[4] what does the 4 mean?
00:04:17 <fizzie> Make recursion depth, maybe.
00:04:30 <elliott> it's the third element of llvm
00:05:10 <oren> quick somone make a language where all arrays are two based
00:05:23 <elliott> oerjan: ...is that a double joke
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00:05:58 <oerjan> elliott: if llvm[0] is the first element, then llvm[4] is the fifth, surely
00:06:33 <oren> no llvm[0] and llvm[1] are undefined behaviour. the array begins with llvm[2].
00:06:43 <elliott> oren: actually 4 isn't an integer in C
00:06:51 <elliott> only 0..3 and 5..72 are defined in the standard
00:06:55 <elliott> anything else is a gcc extension
00:07:10 <fizzie> oren: Perl $[ = 2; hth
00:07:41 <oerjan> i think this is time to relink http://www.strangehorizons.com/2000/20001120/secret_number.shtml
00:07:52 <oren> OH YEAH! Perl is incredibly configurable.
00:08:31 <fizzie> It's not the only language where you can customize the array indexing base.
00:08:48 <fizzie> Sometimes you can do it per-array.
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00:10:41 <oren> if it's the make recursion depth then i'm back at 3 levels deep. the inception has been planted
00:10:58 <oerjan> pascal had array int[3..5] or thereabouts
00:11:00 <ais523> oren: have you read "recursive make considered harmful"?
00:11:23 <oerjan> iirc the 3..5 was a range type, you could give them names
00:11:24 <oren> no, but then i didn't write this code
00:11:39 <oren> i would never use recursive make anyway
00:12:10 <oerjan> oh and you could use character ranges
00:12:13 <oren> i would instead write a convoluted python perl shell abomination
00:12:44 <oerjan> haskell has arbitrary bounds too, except that's not actually statically typed
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00:13:30 <oerjan> > Data.Array.fromList (3,5) [1,2,3]
00:13:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Data.Array.fromList’
00:14:20 <oerjan> > Data.Array.listArray (3,5) [1,2,3]
00:14:47 <oerjan> > Data.Array.listArray ((1,1),(2,2)) [1,2,3,4]
00:14:48 <lambdabot> array ((1,1),(2,2)) [((1,1),1),((1,2),2),((2,1),3),((2,2),4)]
00:15:29 <oren> how does it determine the ordering of the twodimensional points?
00:15:47 <fizzie> Some BASICs have 'DIM a(12 TO 34) AS INTEGER' or so.
00:16:16 <oerjan> > index ((1,1),(2,2)) (1,2)
00:17:15 <oren> also how does it know not to do (1,3) in that range?
00:17:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
00:17:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
00:18:30 <oerjan> probably the rangeSize tells it enough
00:18:49 <oren> hmmm i guess the rule is it is a rectangle?
00:20:13 <int-e> funny how TCP/IP doesn't work if the target IP is wrong.
00:20:30 <oren> yeah funny dat.
00:21:31 <oren> although my ghci doesn't have "range" for some reason
00:22:46 <oerjan> and also exported from Data.Array
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00:23:57 <oerjan> sadly people seem to prefer the vector package (only 1d arrays) for efficiency reasons these days
00:24:44 <int-e> Even with arrays, I only use 1d arrays if efficiency matters.
00:25:43 <oren> in C all arrays are just syntactic sugar for 1d arrays.
00:25:54 <int-e> Also I shouldn't be allowed to run servers, my Apache configuration had bitrotted horribly.
00:26:14 <oerjan> oren: arrays of pointers to arrays, presumably
00:26:32 <oren> yeah you can do that but it's a separate type
00:27:01 <oren> the regular multidimensional arrays in C have restrictions so they can be reduced to 1D
00:27:03 <oerjan> oren: oh then i don't remember what you mean
00:27:34 <oren> like only the first size of an array can be non-constant
00:28:50 <oren> wow i couldn't figure out how to end ghci until I remembered ^D.
00:29:17 <int-e> "GHCi, version 7.8.3: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help"
00:29:51 <int-e> hmm, the help "page" has grown long. :q(uit) quits.
00:30:23 <oerjan> hm what if you have char a[5][3], can you risk each char [3] subarray is aligned to 4 bytes?
00:30:59 <fizzie> No, there are no gaps.
00:31:19 <oren> fizzie: is it allowed for there to be gaps?
00:31:40 <oerjan> i assume fizzie wouldn't have formulated it that way if it were allowed
00:31:43 <fizzie> But a[1][4] is (ssh) undefined.
00:31:54 <int-e> fizzie: do you happen to know where this is specified in the C standard?
00:32:28 <oren> wow rust is *still* compiling
00:32:35 <fizzie> int-e: It's very vague. There's an explicit defect report reply, though.
00:33:19 <fizzie> int-e: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_017.html Q16.
00:33:38 <oerjan> int-e: i think ghci needs command-specific :help :(
00:33:42 <fizzie> int-e: "For an array of arrays, the permitted pointer arithmetic in subclause 6.3.6, page 47, lines 12-40 is to be understood by interpreting the use of the word ``object'' as denoting the specific object determined directly by the pointer's type and value, not other objects related to that one by contiguity. Therefore, if an expression exceeds these permissions, the behavior is undefined. For example, the following code has undefined behavior: int a[4][5
00:33:49 <elliott> oh, I guess because a[m][n] is not (a[m])[n]
00:34:02 <fizzie> -- int a[4][5]; a[1][7] = 0; /* undefined */ Some conforming implementations may choose to diagnose an ``array bounds violation,'' while others may choose to interpret such attempted accesses successfully with the ``obvious'' extended semantics."
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00:34:04 <elliott> I was thinking it would have an obvious compositional equivalence to * and +
00:34:09 <elliott> in which case it would be very surprising
00:34:45 <elliott> fizzie: very weird to specify UB and then list possible implementation choices, as if it's implementation-defined behaviour
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00:34:55 <oren> all C syntax is bad
00:35:35 <fizzie> elliott: Well, they're only human.
00:36:02 <fizzie> (Or at least likely so.)
00:36:10 <elliott> fizzie: it would be funny if the C standard had examples in it that were UB, or something
00:36:33 <fizzie> I guess that's arguably one of the reasons the examples are non-normative.
00:36:44 <elliott> oerjan: what's that language based on the reals
00:36:52 <madbr> oren : how would you fix C syntax?
00:36:53 <elliott> (arguably esoteric, but invented by mathematicians or computer scientists, not internet nerds)
00:37:21 <elliott> http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Real-Language google is not helping
00:37:34 <elliott> Make up the dictionary. It is best to type on Microsoft Word, that way more can be added.
00:37:37 <oren> madbr: by doing a[n,m] instead, and defning the semantics thereofmore sanely
00:38:04 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot remember
00:38:04 <elliott> the semantics of 2D arrays are ok but the syntax is bad
00:38:10 <elliott> C's array handling is sort of a mess
00:38:26 <elliott> Tips: [...] Don't speak it around strangers, this is rude.
00:38:49 <elliott> blum-shub-smale, that was it
00:39:07 <madbr> oren : true... though I feel that's still a comparatively small mistake
00:39:11 <int-e> fizzie: found it, 6.2.5.20 "An array type describes a contiguously allocated nonempty set of objects [...]"
00:39:28 <elliott> it is annoying how it uses the vague "real function"
00:39:29 <oren> madbr: the more major mistake was the bitwise logics
00:39:41 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, you meant that part, not the "don't access beyond bounds of a subarray" part.
00:39:43 <int-e> oh I'm looking at C99...
00:39:44 <elliott> I guess you're meant to define the language by pasting the axioms of ZFC and the reals to show how functions can precisely be specified?
00:39:45 <fizzie> int-e: Sorry, misinterpreted.
00:40:07 <int-e> err. no, it's the C11 draft all right.
00:40:40 <int-e> fizzie: The out of bounds thing is interesting, too...
00:41:02 <oren> also i guess it would be better to have pascal-style strings
00:41:14 <oren> the C strings are inefficient
00:41:20 <elliott> (I may or may not be asking about this because of my desire to produce [0,1]-indexed brainfuck.)
00:41:31 <fizzie> There are people (I'm looking askew at ##c) who insist that it's a mortal sin to use the word "multidimensional" in the context of C's arrays, even though the standard freely does that. (C11 6.5.2.1p3: "Successive subscript operators designate an element of a multidimensional array object." Footnote 142: "When several ``array of'' specifications are adjacent, a multidimensional array is ...
00:42:11 <madbr> fizzie : yeah that's... pedantic
00:42:31 <coppro> < elliott> C's array handling is sort of a mess <-- I disagree strongly with "sort of"
00:42:44 <oerjan> elliott: surely you mean [0,2pi) with 2pi wrapping back to 0
00:42:59 <int-e> coppro: that's sort of opinionated
00:43:13 <coppro> int-e: I see what you did there
00:43:21 <elliott> oerjan: you some kind of tauist?
00:43:28 <elliott> (okay, maybe. that's kind of cute.)
00:43:33 <madbr> to be fair I'm not sure it's even possible to have much better array handling than C... all the tradeoffs are bad
00:43:44 <elliott> coppro: "sort of" is kind of an intensifier for me...
00:44:27 <oerjan> elliott: hm? 2pi is where exp(ti) is periodic. you could also use {z\in C | abs(z)==1}
00:44:38 <elliott> coppro: I mean C's array handling is just plain a mess
00:44:47 <elliott> oerjan: it was a bad joke.
00:45:03 <oerjan> (i think i chose the worst possible notation for that last one)
00:45:35 <coppro> elliott: yeah, ok, I can figure out the intended intonation now
00:45:38 <elliott> it is just hard to see how to make a cute BF derivative out of it because specifying the function on the index you want to run as a ZFC term is kind of ridiculous
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00:54:36 <zzo38> I have written how I would fix C without causing incompatibilities; if incompatibilities are allowed then more things can be fixed, such as less confusing syntax of types, and I would also include a few features of BLISS which I don't see anywhere else.
00:54:58 <zzo38> In BLISS a variable name is just treated as a constant which is the address of that variable.
00:56:26 <oren> zzo38 that is the sanest way.
00:56:36 <oren> in a low level language anyway
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01:03:03 * oerjan swats AndoDaan for dismembering myndzi's nick too -----###
01:03:32 <boily> hellørjan. I see you're keeping in shape with the Swatter.
01:03:36 <ais523> <zzo38> In BLISS a variable name is just treated as a constant which is the address of that variable. ← ALGOL works like that
01:03:37 <lambdabot> mroman said 9h 38m 18s ago: You might want to have a look at GADTs
01:03:37 <lambdabot> mroman said 9h 37m 51s ago: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/6.6/docs/html/users_guide/gadt.html
01:03:42 <ais523> and possibly invented the practice?
01:03:43 <AndoDaan> See, and that's me not even trying not paying attention.
01:03:59 <boily> mroman: mrhelloman. indeed.
01:04:45 <oren> massages? MASSAGES? dammit!
01:05:09 <oerjan> oren: you seem confused
01:05:27 <elliott> boily: I suggest looking at GADT docs for a newer version than that if you do
01:05:37 <AndoDaan> Hey, are we sure that oren != oerjan?
01:05:49 <oerjan> AndoDaan: i'm pretty sure
01:05:52 <boily> AndoDaan: most definitely sure.
01:06:26 <AndoDaan> If you guys were me, that'd hardly be conclusive evidence.
01:06:26 <boily> elliott: I remember having watched a great GADT tutorial some time ago. it also discussed phantom types.
01:06:55 <boily> AndoDaan: I'm not you. you're not enough sane.
01:06:59 <elliott> boily: mroman probably @told you that in response to you asking about where clauses in data declarations
01:07:02 <elliott> since that's the GADT syntax
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01:07:26 <boily> elliott: I had forgot a lot about gadts and suchlike. they subtly confuse me.
01:07:57 <boily> (but then, with parallels to make with lenses and Scott encodings, it makes more sense.)
01:09:23 <oren> @tell oren hello me
01:09:32 <zzo38> I happen to like GADT it can help many purposes
01:09:46 <oerjan> @tell AndoDaan for a good time call 555-666-31415
01:09:50 <elliott> do you want me to friendzone you. we can be in the friend zone together and send each other lots and lots of lambadbot massages
01:10:29 <oren> that's lucifer's number
01:11:03 <AndoDaan> got excited that i got a msg for a second.
01:14:10 <AndoDaan> Any chess players/enthusiastic amongst you?
01:14:21 <ais523> AndoDaan: zzo38's generated a ton of chess variants
01:15:17 <oren> my favorite chess variant is checkers played with chess pieces. confuses everyone around you
01:16:05 <AndoDaan> I think that's the variant movie characters are always playing.
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01:16:42 <boily> AndoDaan: do you like xiangqi or shōgi?
01:17:03 <madbr> trying to come up with a turing complete chess variants
01:17:15 <madbr> it looks feasible but it might require multiple kings
01:17:28 <boily> madbr: hi! long time no see!
01:17:40 <AndoDaan> I've learned them. Thought the idea of Shogi was really cool, but couldn't find opponents back in the day.
01:18:04 <elliott> madbr: on an infinite board, I guess?
01:18:24 <AndoDaan> Well, each game starts with TWO kings, so... hth
01:18:34 <oren> chess with real number positions
01:18:44 <zzo38> I know how to play xiangqi and shogi
01:18:45 <boily> chess, on a 2D brainfuck tape that grows as needed...
01:18:51 <zzo38> But there are a lot of other chess variant game too
01:19:42 <boily> madbr: nearly holidays!
01:19:47 <boily> how's life on your end?
01:19:52 <oren> elliott: that would be cool. A piece must move the maximum distance it can move, in the direction chosen
01:20:25 <coppro> oren: how does that work for pawns and captures?
01:20:59 <oren> hmm, you choose whther to move one extra space and capture, and pawns are assumed to have spiked boots.
01:21:34 <oren> similar knights jump so they don't slide
01:22:13 <int-e> what about castling? if a king can castle to the king side, moving two spaces, can it also move only one space instead?
01:22:40 <oren> when you castle, the rook moves as far to the other side as it can.
01:22:57 <int-e> uh... ok, but that wasn't the question.
01:23:02 <madbr> boily : decided to take monday + tuesday off so already in xmas mode :3
01:23:20 <oren> hmm the king has spiked boots too.
01:24:28 <boily> oren: should equipment be restricted to spiked boots only, or be more creative?
01:24:38 <oren> so he can choose how far to move. on the other hand maybe if you stop in front of a piece you can push them
01:24:44 <int-e> oren: final question, about pawns; on their first move, assuming it's not a capture, do they get a choice whether they advance two spaces or one?
01:26:19 <int-e> (actually I was assuming that "as far as possible" was with respect to the usual rules of chess, i.e. the slow pieces (pawn, king, knight) would still be slow, and now be allowed to move further than before.)
01:26:43 <oren> hmmm... maybe they should.
01:27:07 <int-e> iow, only bishop, rook and queen would be affected.
01:27:20 <oren> yeah that's it.
01:27:55 <oren> i think knights are like dragoons from final fantasy: they move and attack my jumping
01:28:19 <int-e> which leaves open the question for the few cases where a slow piece can move one or two steps in a particular direction.
01:28:41 <int-e> that's why I asked about castling and the first forward move of pawns.
01:28:53 <oren> the slow pieces would probably still decide.
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01:30:15 <elliott> ssehc, where you have to make valid moves in reverse to turn a checkmate position back into the initial one
01:31:09 <oren> who decides what piece was in a position when a piece is untaken?
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01:34:27 <oren> actually, chessehc! you can freely take or antitake pieces. every valid game begins at a checkmate and ends at one.
01:35:04 <oren> wiat that would be ssechcess
01:35:30 <oren> chessech would end at the initial state
01:35:58 <oren> the winner is whoever's pieces spent the least time dead.
01:36:40 <oren> hmm no wait then the game might never end
01:38:32 <int-e> I don't see how ssehc will end. A player can just leave one of her pieces in the home ranks of the opponent and refuse to ever un-move it.
01:38:49 <oren> maybe a cooperative game towards a nontrivial goal?
01:40:42 <oren> e.g. begin at a checkmate for white, end at a checkmate for black, but pass through a given state.
01:41:05 <tromp_> computation is a 0 player game
01:41:22 <tromp_> nondeterministic computation is a 1 player game
01:41:36 <tromp_> alternating computation is a 2 player game
01:42:17 <AndoDaan> multiplayer computatin is physics.
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02:56:49 <Jafet> itt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_game
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03:57:31 <oerjan> @tell int-e i remembered where i'd seen such a monster before http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121029
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04:12:57 <oerjan> @tell int-e apparently they're called dreens
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05:23:18 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cvlemar I'm guessing this isn't implemented.
05:26:00 <zzo38> There isn't any implmentation that I know of, anyways.
05:26:17 <zzo38> Although, there is supposed to be category to indicate if it is implemented or it isn't implemented.
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13:40:30 <lambdabot> LOWI 201320Z 16005KT 100V180 9999 FEW020 08/05 Q1021 NOSIG
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15:25:13 * Sgeo only now learns of a Star Wars villain named Tarkin
15:25:26 <Sgeo> Suddenly the name Tarquin makes much more sense
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20:57:06 <Solace> So heresy is pretty gud
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21:23:37 <Solace> Heresy and blasphemy! shoo's J_Arcane to prison
21:24:04 <Solace> Its very smooth for me and pretty nice
21:24:26 <J_Arcane> (for (x in (range 1 to 100) with 0) (carry (+ x cry)))
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22:18:37 <Solace> How do i uncap max ram
22:23:25 <MDude> Download more of it.
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23:01:35 <oren> make a swap file?
23:02:06 <oren> (assuming you don't want to use all the ram AT ONCE)
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23:30:05 <Sgeo> 'Because WebTV utilized strong encryption, upon launch in 1996, WebTV was classified as munitions (a military weapon) by the United States government and was therefore barred from export under United States security laws at the time.'
23:32:42 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Suddenly the name Tarquin makes much more sense <-- heh i guess you didn't notice the accompanying star wars shoutouts either? :)
23:32:57 <Sgeo> I noticed the obvious ones
23:33:03 <Sgeo> But I don't really know Star Wars that well
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23:39:23 <oerjan> those were some short logs today.
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23:42:35 <TheM4ch1n3> Breeth in when looking at the green of plants, then out into crowds where people are looking where they are going, after a while you will notice something strange ...
23:43:32 <TheM4ch1n3> it is because the spirit of man "son of man", breathed and looked at plants
23:44:30 <elliott> what strange thing will I notice?
23:45:00 <TheM4ch1n3> contiousness gets like +seconds into the future, from boosting other peoples sight
23:45:17 <oerjan> spelling otoh takes a deep dive
23:47:17 * int-e misses fungot's voice of reason.
23:49:46 <int-e> oerjan: All I could remember about that Dreen monster was that it was an impressive fighter. I *thought* I had seen it in GG, but I couldn't pinpoint where. I also looked through Buck Godot (which is a bit shorter than the whole collection of GG strips), but they don't appear there ;)
23:50:12 <oerjan> int-e: there's also a wikia page, which has some more links
23:50:51 <oerjan> from back on the initial wulfenbach castle act
23:51:55 <oerjan> and also some information from the non-free books
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23:55:55 <int-e> the time stop device is called a "take-five bomb", hmm.
23:56:12 <oerjan> i remember reading that too
23:56:31 <oerjan> although wasn't that a fan-invented name
23:58:06 <int-e> I dunno. It's not attributed to the Word of God.
23:58:44 <int-e> "Item has gained a fan name" <-- I guess you're right.
23:58:54 <elliott> TheM4ch1n3: btw, your contributions are good but this channel is about programming so it might not interest you much
23:59:13 <oerjan> hasn't TheM4ch1n3 been here for a while
23:59:25 <oerjan> i think e should know what we're about by now