00:00:30 <oerjan> zzo38: also thanks to multiway-if, | is now sometimes a layout keyword. it wasn't originally but i remember loudly pointing out that was a mistake and some time later they added layout.
00:01:26 <oerjan> (not that my shouting was in the right place to be the direct cause)
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00:18:08 <zzo38> I made up two Magic: the Gathering cards based on suggestions from the game master for the Dungeons&Dragons game, which are called "Imp of Deception" (opponent's mana is of a different color than they expect) and "Calimshan Advisor" (opponent shows you the cards he intends to use during his turn).
00:18:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> We don't have many Chinese in European soccer teams yet, but only because they prefer other sports. <-- didn't i mention a while ago that the chinese premier is a soccer fan who wants to make china stop being abysmal at it
00:18:34 <oerjan> so that may change. eventually.
00:19:02 <zzo38> I changed the effects to make them work better with the rules of Magic: the Gathering though. Did you look at it?
00:19:46 <oerjan> (btw the chart for norway would be Football and, bizarrely, Cross Country Skiing)
00:20:48 <oerjan> (norway is dominating the latter to an unhealthily degree - unhealthy because every other country is starting to lose their remaining interest in the sport)
00:23:44 <oerjan> (ok the chart would also have some other winter sports)
00:25:35 <oerjan> decades ago, skating used to be huge in norway. i think the dutch may be doing the "unhealthy dominance" thing on that at present.
00:29:23 <zzo38> I made "sqlircbot" but I haven't tried it yet http://sprunge.us/MNaa please tell me if you notice anything wrong, or that I should need to fix, or other feature suggestion, or complaint, etc
00:33:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: This channel is defunged | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:35:03 * int-e waits for zzo38 to rewrite fungot in sqlite3
00:35:39 * oerjan waits for fungot to rewrite zzo38 in scheme
00:36:13 <int-e> oerjan's a little schemer
00:36:38 <zzo38> I don't really have a intention to rewrite fungot in anything; you rewrite fungot if you like to do so. I doubt fungot has any such intention either, although maybe they can fake it.
00:37:40 <int-e> zzo38: sigh. I was merely trying to hint, politely (ok, maybe not), at the fact that you seem to be a bit obsessed with sqlite.
00:38:05 <zzo38> You are allowed to say thing like that if you like to do so.
00:38:20 <oerjan> i was merely trying to hint, politely, at the fact that fungot seems to be a bit obsessed with scheme hth
00:39:07 <int-e> oerjan: it may have to do with hanging around on #scheme
00:40:38 -!- int-e has set topic: This channel got defunged | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:41:00 <elliott> what's wrong with being obsessed with something
00:41:38 <int-e> elliott: nothing, but it can be hard to take for people who are not obsessed about the same things.
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00:50:40 <Taneb> I am listening to my (British) university's radio coverage for the Superbowl
00:50:48 <Taneb> I have no idea what is going on, and neither do they
00:53:30 <zzo38> Then call them on telephone and complain
00:53:32 <Taneb> "The Patriots are up 42 to 7, what does that mean? We don't know"
00:53:41 <Taneb> zzo38, It's amusing
00:53:49 <Taneb> They're now ordering pizza
00:54:53 <Taneb> They've got the person on the student union representing sports clubs
00:56:12 <Taneb> I sent in a message saying "Do any of you have any idea what is going on?"
00:56:33 <Taneb> And they read it out and said "Absolutely not, except for one thing, and that's that pizza is on its way"
00:58:00 <Jafet> Maybe they should interpret the game using British football rules.
00:58:26 <Taneb> Apparently there was a touchdown
00:58:31 <Taneb> Do they work like in Rugby
00:58:36 <Taneb> Do they get to convert the touchdown
00:59:46 <Taneb> "I don't know what that means, I'm just reading things that are on the screen"
01:06:19 <zzo38> I made up two variants of Magic: the Gathering which are using entirely proxies, which is one for Limited (using a Solomon draft) and one for Constructed (using duel decks).
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01:10:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41787&oldid=41554 * 66.57.93.188 * (+40) /* Nim */
01:11:32 <Taneb> Now the campus satire magazine has came to beat up the radio presenters
01:14:12 <pikhq> Taneb: Yes, in football you can convert a touchdown.
01:14:59 <pikhq> Though you ordinarily kick for a field goal to get an extra point rather than do a two-point conversion.
01:15:17 <zzo38> What are you going to convert it into?
01:15:35 <pikhq> zzo38: The nomenclature is... weird.
01:16:14 <zzo38> Maybe that's why nobody understands?
01:16:15 <pikhq> A "two point conversion" in American football refers to attempting a second run into the in zone immediately after a touchdown in a single play.
01:16:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41788&oldid=41787 * 66.57.93.188 * (+18) /* Changed language name to Nim. Allow multiple commands at once. */
01:17:25 <oren> When did katy perry become an american copy of kyary pamyu pamyu
01:20:24 <oren> Like seriously, googly eyed beachballs and palm trees. clearly copying kyary pamyu pamyu
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01:20:49 <pikhq> To be perfectly honest, American football is not that complicated a game, particularly if you understand rugby.
01:20:58 <pikhq> (American footbball is "just" a very weird variant of rugby)
01:21:31 <AndoDaan> rugby is a very weird variant of soccer.
01:21:47 <zzo38> You are probably correct but that doesn't make it easily enough to understand by people who don't understand these kind of game!
01:21:59 <Taneb> Association football is a weird variant of Magic: The Gathering
01:22:01 <zzo38> Especially if the nomenclature is... weird.
01:22:34 <AndoDaan> MTG is a reasonable varient of Pocket Monsters.
01:22:55 <pikhq> zzo38: True. It's not *hard*, but it's non-zero knowledge.
01:23:32 <AndoDaan> Wait, was MTG the first card game of it's kind?
01:23:34 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering is different from football and Pocket Monsters entirely, just as much as poker is different from chess and stuff like that, and more
01:23:40 <zzo38> AndoDaan: I believe so.
01:24:10 <AndoDaan> What a mind the invertor must have.
01:25:02 <zzo38> But there was no Limited play when it was first designed, only Constructed. There also weren't any deck construction rules as far as I know, and many cards were written in ways that are unusual for today, some cards says "destroys a black card as it is being cast", and "target creature is now a flying creature", and "if this reduces creature's toughness below 1, it is dead"
01:26:23 <pikhq> The closest to a predecessor to MTG, which isn't especially similar, is Cosmic Encounter.
01:27:22 <Taneb> They are now ordering pizza LIVE ON AIR
01:27:49 <pikhq> By the way, it is a terrible idea to order pizza in the US during the Superbowl.
01:28:22 <pikhq> I mean, you can, they will take your order, and they will deliver it, but don't be surprised if the game has been over for an hour by the time they actually make the thing.
01:28:22 <Taneb> pikhq, good thing they are in Yorkshire
01:28:33 <pikhq> In Yorkshire I can't imagine it's a big problem.
01:28:54 <pikhq> Well, except that it's 0130.
01:29:18 <Taneb> Eh, I've ordered later successfully
01:29:28 <Taneb> It's a city with two universities
01:29:42 <zzo38> I am supposed to design Aberration Hater Card Game though, instead of being mainly Constructed it can be designed from the start to be mainly for Limited, as well as from the start it says you can use proxies if it is written clearly and don't constitute "marked cards".
01:29:50 <pikhq> You might be limited in options, but still.
01:30:31 <zzo38> And also if I can try to design the rules from the start so that you don't get unclear and ambiguous problems, by inventing the programming language to design the rules with.
01:31:02 <zzo38> I don't know if you believe it is a better, worse, or neither, idea than how other game design.
01:32:14 <zzo38> What is your opinion of such thing anyways?
01:33:43 <Sgeo> At this rate, Chrome is going to assume General Biotics is one of my favorite websites
01:33:57 <zzo38> Can you disable those feature?
01:34:21 <Taneb> They've challenged the satire magazine to strip-watching Superbowl
01:34:32 <Taneb> One item of clothing for each point scored
01:34:48 <zzo38> What happen when they run out of clothing?
01:35:51 <Taneb> Then they lose I guess
01:36:19 <zzo38> Whoever has a lot of clothing is winner.
01:36:34 <Taneb> They've just realised that they're going to have to collect the pizza after a while
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01:44:27 <Taneb> Eh, I'm going to bed
01:44:55 <Taneb> When you start hearing owls and radio commentators talking about themselves stripping it's time to sleep
01:48:05 <Taneb> "The last time we called him on air, he was in the middle of something... very personal, that"
02:02:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41789&oldid=41788 * Oerjan * (-61) Undo everything except name change, misunderstood language semantics
02:12:04 <oerjan> deadfish may be a simple esolang, but it's semantics are among the hardest to understand unaided
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02:25:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41790&oldid=41785 * Oerjan * (+0) /* General languages */ Totally Accurate Ordering
02:30:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41791&oldid=41730 * Oerjan * (+3) fix some punct.
02:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfork]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41792&oldid=41774 * Oerjan * (+54) unsigned
02:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41793&oldid=41781 * Oerjan * (+52) unsigned
02:37:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41794&oldid=41786 * Oerjan * (+16) fmt, link
02:40:35 <oerjan> TomPN has managed to outrun my patience with adding unsigned templates
02:44:37 <int-e> oerjan: do you have to manually collect the metadata?
02:46:32 <oerjan> well, i don't know if i _have_ to, but i generally cut and paste from the history subpage
02:46:54 <oerjan> adjusting the time zone as well
02:47:52 <oerjan> it's not the chore of it that broke my patience, but the fact that he keeps not signing even as my previous templates are visible on the same page
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03:45:42 <zzo38> A game called "Cuttle" with some similarities with Magic: the Gathering is said to have been invented much earlier--in 1970s at the latest.
03:49:26 <pikhq> I mostly know of Cosmic Encounter because it's what Garfield actually had *played* that gave him ideas for MTG.
03:49:34 <pikhq> Also because I've played Cosmic Encounter.
04:03:57 <Sgeo> hasgeneralbioticsreleasedtheirstudyyet.example.com: NO
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04:50:06 * oerjan wonders if he's playing too much devil's advocate https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:43
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07:35:11 <zzo38> I got SQLIRCBOT working now. You can try sending VERSION, PING, and TIME requests to it at "sqlircbot1".
07:44:36 <zzo38> I will terminate it for now.
07:53:31 <zzo38> Yes; I only needed it on temporarily for testing
07:53:51 <zzo38> I can put back on if you want and I can also show you the program and schema if you like it too.
07:54:11 <zzo38> The VERSION, TIME, and PING requests are responded by triggers.
07:54:27 <b_jonas> yep, you said you'll do everything by triggers
07:54:36 <zzo38> (This isn't a built-in feature of SQLIRCBOT)
07:55:30 <b_jonas> does it respond to server PING requests, or else at least send a message every five minutes, so that the server doesn't kick it for being idle?
07:56:05 <zzo38> Responding to server PING requests is built-in to SQLIRCBOT; it is one of the few things that doesn't use triggers.
07:56:50 <zzo38> So, yes it does do that (and currently there is no way to turn that off).
07:58:03 <zzo38> You also don't need triggers to log the date/time; to do that you can use a DEFAULT clause in the CREATE TABLE statement.
07:59:42 <zzo38> The responding to client pings looks like this: CREATE TRIGGER ping_trigger before insert on irc_log when new.command = 'PRIVMSG' collate nocase and new.arg2 like (x'01'||'PING%') begin select ircsend('notice',new.nick,new.arg2); end;
07:59:53 <b_jonas> right. you really need to respond to PING messages because some non-freenode servers absolutely won't talk to you unless you do
08:00:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's one specific thing I'd like to ask you about though
08:00:21 <zzo38> Yes, the host program automatically responds to server pings regardless of the database schema.
08:00:56 <zzo38> What specific thing do you like to ask me about?
08:01:27 <b_jonas> you know how irc networks use one of two casefolding methods to fold the case of nicknames and channel names. the server tells you which one it uses in a 005 message early.
08:01:43 <zzo38> I know about IRC casefolding.
08:01:59 <b_jonas> technically, it tells you early enough that you could depend on that message, but it's very difficult to organize code in a way that guarantees you don't need to know about casefolding before the server tells you.
08:02:00 <zzo38> SQLIRCBOT implements a collation called IRCNOCASE which does that.
08:02:45 <b_jonas> so my take is that when I just tell the casefolding to the program before I set up the connection, and then verify it, and if the server tells it's wrong then I make the program die, because it's just easier to implement it that way.
08:03:26 <zzo38> Your database schema will need to know which kind of casefolding to use.
08:03:59 <zzo38> If you want you can add a trigger that checks that it is the correct one, but normally you probably don't need to.
08:04:59 <zzo38> If you are only logging, it doesn't normally matter which one you use anyways (unless you want to add an index by name), but if you want to do other stuff too then you would figure this out and do this.
08:06:10 <zzo38> That's how I handle it. If you want the non-English casefolding then you just will use the IRCNOCASE collation; for English casefolding use NOCASE collation.
08:06:37 <zzo38> Does this answer your question?
08:08:35 <b_jonas> I definitely need code in my bot that follows the nicks my bot sees. For that, I need to follow JOIN, QUIT, PART, KICK, NICK, 353, 366 messages, plus if I want to follow nickserv accounts too then I have to issue CAP and WHOx commands and follow ACCOUNT, 354, 315 messages.
08:09:41 <b_jonas> (Freenode has a set of three extensions that together let you track which nicks on channels are logged in to what nickserv accounts. I will need this for my bot ideally.)
08:12:59 <b_jonas> I have proof of concept code for this, but I'll have to make sane code.
08:15:23 <b_jonas> The other difficult part of irc handling I encountered is making sure you don't send too many messages so the server doesn't kick you. I have the throttling code working so I know exactly how much I can send, but the hard part is making the bot behave sanely when its queue fills up too much and it can't empty it because it keeps getting incoming requests. I don't have a good solution for that yet.
08:17:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: Does your bot attempt to handle that?
08:23:52 <zzo38> I currently have no such code although maybe it should have.
08:24:12 <zzo38> It contains no timing code at all for now because I cannot figure out how to get it to work.
08:25:21 <zzo38> However I assume that it wouldn't receive incoming requests too fast either.
08:25:34 <zzo38> Because the other client is also limited to the same speed.
08:28:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: you don't actually have to use timing code for this
08:30:28 <b_jonas> you only have to count bytes
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08:40:07 <b_jonas> Basically, the irc server gives each connection a buffer of 3000something bytes (3072 I think, but I'm not sure). It removes a command from that buffer only after it's processed the previous command from that connection completely. If you send more input than fits in the buffer, it disconnects you. If you send a line longer than 512 bytes (counting the terminating LF) it also disconnects you.
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08:40:52 <b_jonas> The easy way to know how much you can send is to reserve the last 7 bytes of that buffer, send a PING command before the buffer gets full, and continue sending only after the server has replied to that PING command.
08:41:05 <b_jonas> You could do more elaborate tracking, but this is the easiest to implement.
08:41:27 <b_jonas> (There's also another throttling on the server which is much more difficult to handle.)
08:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41795&oldid=41782 * Taktentus * (+136) new version and some other t
08:44:01 <b_jonas> Lots of this stupid specific information about IRC servers is not documented well and I have to acquire it from various pieces of partial documentation, from talking to people who know the servers on #freenode, from experimenting, and sometimes even from the source code.
08:46:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41796&oldid=41746 * Taktentus * (+16) add taktentus
08:53:25 <J_Arcane> I swear sometimes there's nothing worse than waking up later than someone who's already been awake long enough to get chatty ...
08:59:40 <zzo38> I will implement your ideas OK thank you for telling me how it is working.
09:02:03 <zzo38> Did you see my newest Magic: the Gathering cards and puzzle.3? (The solution is available too if you want it, although I didn't write the solution but I did make up the puzzle by myself.)
09:05:56 <J_Arcane> woo! http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/02/raspberry_pi_model_2/
09:28:02 <zzo38> Later if you did then you can tell me.
09:52:08 <elliott> fizzie: is BF Joust scoring just the same as PageRank
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09:59:55 <fizzie> It's at least pretty close.
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10:42:54 <Jafet> But you're ranking the jousters, not the pages.
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11:29:02 <boily> int-e: int-ello. you set the topic to something very serious. what happened to dear Sir Fungellot?
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11:52:41 <fizzie> boily: 22:11 -!- fungot [fis@selene.zem.fi] has quit [Quit: BEEP BOOP TIME TO TAKE A BREAK]
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11:53:15 <fizzie> It's having a vacation.
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12:19:48 <boily> even bots have right to their own two paid vacation weeks.
12:19:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 021210Z 02020KT 1SM R06L/P6000FT/D R06R/P6000FT/D -SN BLSN SCT009 OVC022 M22/M26 A3000 RMK SN1SF2SC5 SLP163
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12:58:59 <fizzie> It might be a bit more than two weeks.
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14:01:49 <HackEgo> olist 974: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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15:47:06 <J_Arcane> Well this is perfectly barking: http://cj-johnson.github.io/Single-Tag_Website/
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17:00:12 <vanila> https://github.com/pigworker/PolyTest/blob/master/TLCAPoly.pdf?raw=true
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18:47:11 <oren> What kind of math is required to take matrices of derivatives without disassembling them
18:50:58 <oren> for example d/dB A x B
18:52:07 <oren> I've been doing it by turning it into a summation and then turning the final formula back into a set of matrix operations
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19:21:42 <Sgeo> General Biotics study still not released
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20:41:31 <myname> how comes bf2d is not on the wiki?
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22:36:48 <zzo38> How should I work the send buffering into sqlircbot? I did already fix it not to send lines that are too long in case some IRC server disconnects you when that happens
22:37:47 <zzo38> (The IRCSEND function returns 1 if it could not send for any reason (line too long, parameters before the last one having spaces, any one having carriage returns and line feeds) or 0 if it can send, but that doesn't seem to fix the send buffer size too)
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22:50:37 <zzo38> I know I should PING the server and wait for the PONG response to know they have processed the message but I cannot seem to see where in this program such a thing can go without blocking everything else the program is doing.
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22:54:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can store the messages you want to send in a table (you are probably already doing that), and add triggers to try to send some of the messages from that table both when (1) a new message is added and the table was empty, and (2) when you get the PONG response so you know the output buffer is cleared.
22:54:35 <b_jonas> The problem is when that table gets too long so you can never clear it and are sending very old messages.
22:57:01 <lambdabot> KSFO 022156Z 00000KT 8SM FEW002 BKN200 17/11 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP194 T01670106
23:01:44 <olsner> iirc it's possible to make tables that have C callbacks for some operations (like adding or deleting a row)
23:02:14 <zzo38> Yes you can do those things
23:02:49 <zzo38> However I have the sending messages done by the IRCSEND function exposed to the SQL program and want the C code in that function to handle it somehow
23:03:02 <olsner> (https://sqlite.org/vtab.html)
23:04:04 <zzo38> Yes, virtual tables, although I don't expect virtual tables to really help with what I am trying to do here at all
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23:05:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: you don't need virtual tables for thsi
23:05:31 <b_jonas> I don't think they help either
23:08:06 <int-e> oerjan: GG updated.
23:09:17 <int-e> But hmm, it's still working up to one of Agatha's outbreaks.
23:11:20 <fizzie> A sudden violent spontaneous occurrence (usually of some undesirable condition) hth
23:11:39 <oerjan> well int-e has predicted one kind of that
23:11:40 <int-e> oerjan: oh you know when she starts to shout and make a stand
23:12:05 <oerjan> i don't think the word means that in english.
23:12:26 <int-e> I can't have that. The language is there to bend to my will.
23:13:06 <oerjan> although on the bright side, its cognate does so in norwegian, so i assume german is similar.
23:13:29 <oerjan> or well, sort of cognate.
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23:14:39 <oerjan> i suspect both break and burst are cognates of it
23:15:23 <int-e> Ok, fine, outburst it is.
23:18:09 <oerjan> hm they're supposedly from different, but eerily similar PIE roots
23:18:21 <oerjan> probably just going back a bit further, then
23:20:00 <int-e> . o O ( /topic This channel got defunged | Breaking bubbles and ursting barriers | ... )
23:20:06 <zzo38> For now I just put in sleep for 1 millisecond per character sent, but probably I should change it later
23:20:19 <zzo38> Since the way I put now is not very good
23:20:22 <int-e> zzo38: that sounds unhealthy
23:22:07 <int-e> . o O ( All these typos are seriously denting my prefectionism. )
23:22:21 -!- oerjan has set topic: This channel got defunged | reaking ubbles and ursting arriers | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:22:41 <zzo38> I just now changed it to twice as fast, which probably still not so good but might work, I don't know
23:22:50 <boily> oerjan: usually spelled correctly?
23:23:15 <oerjan> boily: i think we had that yes
23:23:15 <int-e> t's ow sually pelled orrectly
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23:24:22 <boily> int-e: sotp hruntig my bairn.
23:24:54 <oerjan> boily: some of those words are real tdnh
23:25:06 <int-e> I'm just sharing some pain here, hoping to alleviate it.
23:27:21 <boily> int-e: I only accept pain in capsaicin form.
23:27:22 <int-e> Well, there is a desensitizing effect at least.
23:27:39 <int-e> boily: Well then your brain shouldn't be hurting now.
23:27:58 <int-e> (Which it probably isn't, not literally at least, but never mind that.)
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23:30:21 <boily> helloren. do you reak ubbles oo?
23:31:11 <int-e> boily: I see you're adopting my strategy.
23:31:42 <boily> adapt with the imes, I say.
23:33:08 <int-e> Hmm, that's a tricky one. Should we adopt adaptation or adapt adoptation...
23:34:49 <boily> that's exactly the kind of conundrum I'd be asking Sir Fungellot, but it seems to have been excised from the chännel...
23:36:52 * int-e may opt for adept adaptation.
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23:38:56 <zzo38> Maybe this way better: - Keep track of how many characters are send so far. - If it would exceed 3000, instead send a PING and insert the message to send into a temporary table. - If the PING has been sent and not responded yet, also insert into temporary table.
23:39:07 <zzo38> - Once the server responds by PONG then delete records from the temporary table. - This temporary table can have triggers to resend the message when records are deleted. - Once it runs out then reset the counter to zero and you can send messages normally again.
23:40:39 <zzo38> Do you expect this can work then?
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23:55:45 <oerjan> zzo38: you need to subtract the size of a PING from the 3000
23:56:06 <zzo38> Yes I forgot to mention that
23:56:22 <zzo38> That would be 8 bytes though
23:58:31 <zzo38> (Since you can write "PING 1" followed by a carriage return and a line feed, which will be 8 bytes in total)