00:00:53 <int-e> Is it the thing where he suddenly bans you from the channel?
00:01:09 <Lilax> Not that the other thing ;---;
00:01:27 <Lilax> nvm Elliott that eolus is a fake
00:01:36 <oerjan> elliott is so polite these days
00:01:40 <elliott> it's a dead client connecting, from the looks of it
00:01:44 <elliott> it's from irccloud at least
00:02:05 <Lilax> did int-e get a message then?
00:03:01 <int-e> I mean I got messages but nothing private. Err...
00:03:41 <Lilax> it won't let me join from irc cloud ;-;
00:03:54 <Lilax> fresh batch of frownies
00:04:01 <int-e> Sorry, I can't help milking a dead horse for puns.
00:04:06 <int-e> Or mixing metaphors.
00:06:09 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:48 <Lilax> for some reason its faded on irc cloud
00:07:01 <Lilax> then it doesn't register as sent through
00:07:07 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
00:08:07 <Lilax> :Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
00:08:35 <Lilax> this is what happens when I Try to log into that account
00:08:37 <int-e> oerjan: Too bad the pronunciation doesn't work out: "When I see a bad pun I just nod and simile."
00:09:50 <elliott> Lilax: you need to send "recover nick password" to nickserv in that case
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00:10:48 <elliott> it looks like /pv nickserv or /query nickserv
00:10:53 <elliott> (/pv?? what a weird client)
00:11:51 <int-e> also /quote nickserv ... (communication with services often has builtin support in the IRC server, so "nickserv" and "chanserv" work as IRC commands)
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00:13:58 <int-e> sorry, elliott seems to have read some actual client documentation...
00:14:34 <oerjan> int-e: that's cheating!
00:14:59 <Lilax> dislike everything
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00:16:07 <oerjan> does that include chocolate?
00:18:31 <int-e> oh, "ten cent tents" can be parsed two ways.
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00:23:38 <int-e> http://www.twogag.com/archives/1887
00:23:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41801&oldid=41775 * 98.243.16.185 * (+2691) Add some illustrative examples
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00:27:31 <Guest92557> My Lilax account will expire in 30 days if another Lilax comes in here or anyone named after me and my nicks itz not me
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00:28:45 <int-e> use a hammer or a brick
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00:33:35 <int-e> oh the usual, frustration, hatred, and outbreaks of outbursts.
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01:10:51 <blockzombie> I'm looking at Forth and some legit esolangs like False, True and Dup.
01:11:31 <oerjan> might add Underload then
01:11:32 <blockzombie> I'd like to evolve and optimise algorithms using a GA
01:11:50 <oerjan> another concatenative one
01:12:32 <blockzombie> I'm not so much going for absurdity but I would like to enable self-modifying code
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01:13:07 <blockzombie> Do all these have separate program memory from the stack?
01:13:52 <int-e> Hmm, what exactly is self-modifying code? Is the lambda calculus self-modifying?
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01:14:13 <oerjan> well there's the control/return stack too, at least
01:14:22 <oerjan> (don't know about True and Dup)
01:14:39 <oerjan> ok in that case underload is also self-modifying
01:14:53 <blockzombie> I think the practical matter of self-modification is reaching into program data and reading constants and references
01:15:37 <blockzombie> yeah but the stack and the symbol table are disconnected right?
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01:16:01 <oerjan> well underload has no symbol table
01:16:11 <blockzombie> I'd like to have a small instruction set but I'm aware of the turing tarpit quote from perlis
01:18:57 <oerjan> ^ul (Underload! )(~:S:^):^
01:20:07 <oerjan> you can also think of it as rewriting the program
01:24:10 <blockzombie> so awesome there's a compiler written in redcode
01:26:57 <blockzombie> nice... scala underload compiler that compiles scala
01:27:09 <oerjan> i wrote one in emmental, which btw is a self-modifying language where you modify the language _itself_. so my interpreter works by turning it into underload
01:27:24 <oerjan> oh and that's also stacky
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01:29:47 <blockzombie> is the interpreter loaded into the program space?
01:30:29 <oerjan> i recall that you cannot really use the jvm stack directly for a stack language because the type checker won't accept it...
01:30:51 <blockzombie> what I'd love is a language where I can build crossover functions for a GA where the genotype corresponds to a program
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01:31:25 <blockzombie> You can't use the stack directly in java but the real problem is there is no tail-call optimisation yet
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01:34:06 <int-e> doesn't that give you nightmares though?
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01:35:19 <oerjan> <blockzombie> is the interpreter loaded into the program space? <-- not sure what you mean
01:36:10 <oerjan> the official interpreter has a table from command characters to commands, essentially, which some of the commands update
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01:42:56 <oerjan> the type of that table is called Interpreter
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01:58:14 * oerjan is reminded by blockzombie's nick to check up on bitcoin
01:58:26 <oerjan> seems to still be slowly falling
02:07:51 <blockzombie> the price is not much affected by news on fundamentals at the moment
02:08:07 <blockzombie> it is mostly margin traders pushing it around
02:08:22 <blockzombie> they love the volatility... hedge funds are moving in now
02:08:39 <blockzombie> so we're likely to see a major drop before the next bubble
02:10:13 <oerjan> nighmares about dayjobs, i assume
02:10:41 <blockzombie> oerjan: i was asking whether you modify the language itself by having the program loaded in as a kind of #include for the interpreter and then self-modification === modifying the language
02:11:36 <oerjan> well the emmental interpreter is in haskell
02:11:50 <oerjan> rather basic haskell in fact
02:12:09 <oerjan> (if i had written it it would have used a lot more higher order functions and monads)
02:12:17 <blockzombie> I'm convinced haskell is awesome.. I've looked at it just not really got my hands dirty
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02:13:10 <oerjan> no, chris pressey is the author of both the language and the interpreter
02:13:22 <oerjan> i wrote the underload interpreter in emmental
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02:16:10 <oerjan> actually i generated it with haskell, here's the program for that http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/EmmUnl.hs
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02:18:19 <blockzombie> and this is the output?: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm
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02:21:39 <blockzombie> I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what program representation poses the easiest crossover function. If you're familiar with GA you wan to "breed" two programs and ideally preserve implementation features from each program
02:23:00 <blockzombie> it seems very easy to end up with a situation like disassembling two clocks into a bag, shaking it and tipping out half. What you end up with is not much like a working clock - least one that shares much with either "parent"
02:23:44 <blockzombie> I'm familiar with evolving corewar warriors
02:26:51 <oerjan> i don't have any real experience with GA
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02:27:47 <oerjan> i was just looking at my own haskell program there, i had forgotten a lot of the trickiness. also it was the first time i tried using lens.
02:33:58 <oerjan> blockzombie: maybe you could use something like chromosomes...
02:34:43 <oerjan> where your combined program parts are chosen from corresponding parts of the originals
02:35:50 <oerjan> it works to make living organisms have a good chance of still working, anyhow
02:38:02 <blockzombie> yeah but the mapping of parts has to be chosen
02:38:53 <blockzombie> if there were modules then you could have intra and inter module variations
02:39:38 <blockzombie> I like the idea. Is underload eqipped for this?
02:39:52 <oerjan> presumably a part would be a sequence of commands...
02:40:21 <oerjan> well i assume you would have to keep track of the parts outside underload.
02:41:29 <oerjan> underload doesn't have much in the way of analyzing its own subprograms.
02:41:58 <oerjan> in a safe way, anyway.
02:41:59 <blockzombie> yeah so part boundaries is what we're talking about.
02:42:43 <blockzombie> I expect that something like 95% needs to be junk dna
02:43:00 <blockzombie> I think this is how mutation levels are insulated against
02:43:08 <oerjan> that's a bit troublesome on a stack, actually.
02:43:40 <oerjan> because how does the non-junk find its data if the stack is filled with junk
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02:44:01 <oerjan> well, you do have nops i guess
02:44:13 <blockzombie> yeah well I'm not saying the stack is filled with junk, but the program is
02:44:45 <blockzombie> the key is it's not clear which is junk and which is useful... that's up to the tree of future generations
02:44:47 <oerjan> well badly constructed junk would tend to seep onto the stack :P
02:45:49 <blockzombie> but if I had a RISC cpu emulator instead of underload would I be any better off?
02:46:27 <oerjan> it might be that a language that keeps most of its data on the stack is unsuited to GA :(
02:46:29 <blockzombie> the first step is what set of producible programs are valid/executable
02:46:50 <blockzombie> if that is the case then I will use something else
02:46:52 <oerjan> because junk then gets in the way
02:47:52 <blockzombie> like pointers to stacks, also potentially a symbol table of sorts
02:48:09 <blockzombie> so there's be a random lookup mechanism to keep parts and their data connected
02:48:35 <blockzombie> but the flip side is you want to enable code to read randomly because that's an essential combining effect
02:49:07 <blockzombie> the good news is I only really need numeric types and I don't need any output
02:49:27 <blockzombie> I can just halt and use the top of the stack as the "result"
02:49:40 <blockzombie> really only need a binary or ternary output
02:51:08 <blockzombie> reconsidering I think output is overkill... just use memory state at halt
03:08:57 <blockzombie> the reason I like the stack is because you can get away from having loads of abitrary operands. maybe the existence of operands is better than the alternative: long chains of stack manipulation code
03:09:15 <blockzombie> I'm in this channel because I can't figure this out
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07:40:11 <AndoDaan> I was thinking of adding (more thinking about thinking of adding) a new catergory to the wiki. Esoteric languages usable on Anarchy Golf.
07:41:06 <AndoDaan> What would you guys think. It's one of the few (only) places you can program in bonafide esolangs where it's of some - competative - use.
07:41:55 <AndoDaan> And I came to esolangs via Anarchy Golf. I might not be the only one.
08:02:45 <Jafet> That doesn't seem useful because it depends on the whim of the anagol administrator; it could have anywhere from ten languages to the entire intersection of TC and Implemented
08:03:31 <Jafet> You could make it a list article instead. Then you can also add content which would not fit in a category page.
08:03:51 <AndoDaan> True. Good input. And that's a great idea.
08:07:12 <AndoDaan> Now I just have get over my natural ability to write stubby wiki articles.
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11:33:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elboza * New user account
11:43:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41802 * Elboza * (+28767) Created page with "{{featured language}} {{infobox proglang |name=brainfuck |paradigms=imperative |author=[[Urban Müller]] |year=[[:Category:1993|1993]] |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimen..."
11:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41803&oldid=41802 * Elboza * (+14)
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12:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41804&oldid=41803 * Elboza * (-24847)
12:12:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41805&oldid=41804 * Elboza * (-42) /* Hello, World! */
12:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41806&oldid=41805 * Elboza * (+3) /* Language overview */
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12:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41807&oldid=41806 * Elboza * (-586) /* History */
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12:15:50 <fizzie> I'm not seeing the "-ng" part, I think.
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12:17:14 * Taneb has a place to live next year almos
12:19:48 <boily> fizzie: I think it's some kind of wip hth
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12:20:00 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. moving away from York?
12:20:30 <Taneb> boily, no, but my housemates are dispersing
12:20:34 <Taneb> So I needed somewhere else
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12:21:02 <Taneb> So I'm moving into private student halls
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12:23:21 <boily> Taneb: so it goes.
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12:24:15 <Taneb> Which means I'm paying what I am now for rent but it includes utilities
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12:25:45 <fizzie> elliott: Some men in Finland packed up the computers the other day.
12:26:15 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently they had also made disparaging comments about the amount of computers, and the weight of the monitor.
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12:43:49 <Taneb> So come July probably I will be slightly further east than my current location
12:57:28 <Taneb> Oooh, Conor McBride is doing a seminar on dependent types in half an hour
13:02:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mazeman * New user account
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13:22:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41808 * Mazeman * (+2180) Created page with "'''Mice in a maze''' is another brainfuck derivative. It was invented in 2015 by an anonymous user. Mice in a maze was inspired by items called cellular automata, especially C..."
13:22:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41809&oldid=41796 * Mazeman * (+21) /* M */
13:23:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41810&oldid=41808 * Mazeman * (+6) /* Defining a maze */
13:23:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41811&oldid=41810 * Mazeman * (+7) /* Defining a maze */
13:24:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41812&oldid=41811 * Mazeman * (-6) /* Defining a maze */
13:24:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41813&oldid=41812 * Mazeman * (+0) /* Basics */
13:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41814&oldid=41813 * Mazeman * (+145) /* Syntax */
13:26:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41815&oldid=41814 * Mazeman * (+1) /* = Example maze */
13:27:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41816&oldid=41815 * Mazeman * (+0) /* Instructions */
13:29:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41817&oldid=41816 * Mazeman * (+104) /* Instructions */
13:29:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41818&oldid=41817 * Mazeman * (+0) /* Defining a maze */
13:30:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41819&oldid=41818 * Mazeman * (+7) /* Example maze */
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13:40:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41820&oldid=41819 * TomPN * (+430) /* Example programs */
13:43:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41821&oldid=41807 * Elboza * (-76)
13:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41822&oldid=41821 * Elboza * (+0)
14:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41823&oldid=41822 * Elboza * (+727)
14:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41824&oldid=41823 * Elboza * (+12) /* ReverseFuck mode */
14:05:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41825&oldid=41824 * Elboza * (+74) /* ReverseFuck mode */
14:06:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41826&oldid=41825 * Elboza * (+34) /* ReverseFuck mode */
14:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41827&oldid=41826 * Elboza * (+0)
14:08:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41828&oldid=41827 * Elboza * (+18)
14:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41829&oldid=41828 * Elboza * (+9)
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14:49:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: What is the land-speed velocity of a migrating fungot? | reaking ubbles and ursting arriers | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
14:50:21 * oerjan isn't sure whether "unladen" would be better or worse
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15:09:48 <oerjan> argh testing if my stomach had got well enough to drink orange juice again was a mistake.
15:12:16 <oerjan> (the test results were "no")
15:16:58 <oerjan> hm the keyboard controls of tatham's Bridges are somewhat annoying, you cannot always easily undo a wrong cursor movement
15:18:01 <oerjan> because it's too easy to jump away from a node that's hard to get back to
15:26:04 <oerjan> which might be fine for a different kind of game, but here navigation isn't supposed to be the real puzzle...
15:26:08 <int-e> hmm, no java plugin here.
15:26:56 <oerjan> int-e: if you're looking at tatham's puzzles, i think there's also js versions? (i'm playing the offline downloaded versions)
15:28:45 <oerjan> (i'm not really assuming you're talking about that, mind you)
15:28:54 <int-e> ah it's Hashiwokakero.
15:29:35 <oerjan> lots of tatham's puzzles are renamed nikoli puzzles, i think
15:29:38 <int-e> oerjan: I googled, and the first hit was the java version.
15:29:46 <oerjan> even sudoku got a different name
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15:39:40 <int-e> hmm, I seem to be too used to Nikoli's interface (which doesn't have the feature of locking completed nodes, but marks them in gray, and which allows removing bridges by clicking on them.)
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15:46:01 <oerjan> right, removing a single bridge is a litle awkward
15:47:28 <oerjan> unless you just added it, then "u"ndo works of course
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15:57:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Intgr * New user account
16:00:13 <oerjan> int-e: is that you, but more grammatical?
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16:03:15 <int-e> oerjan: seems unlikely
16:04:15 <int-e> wow, the keyboard *navigation* for the bridges thing is awkward...
16:04:33 <oerjan> that's what i was saying duh
16:06:01 <oerjan> you can get used to it, but don't make any typing mistakes...
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16:08:12 <oerjan> and there are always the "how the f do i get to there" moments
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16:09:36 <oerjan> tatham's Bridges puzzle
16:10:05 <oerjan> which int-e has pointed out is a version of nikoli's Hashiwokakero
16:10:58 <int-e> oerjan: I see, but that's not how I understood your complaint at first. (Personally I don't really find myself wanting to undo much; however I do find myself pressing cursor keys randomly to get to a nearby-but-not-adjacent spot.)
16:11:44 <oerjan> yeah that just doesn't work...
16:13:07 <oerjan> undo is _very_ nice when you realize you've made a mistake a while ago
16:14:34 <oerjan> although i sometimes end up carefully undoing each step, checking if it was actually certain, getting back to the beginning of the game, winding forward and discovering my second to last step was fishier than it looked at first recheck
16:16:17 <oerjan> the unlimited undo mechanism is common to all of tatham's puzzles, of course.
16:17:32 <oerjan> what did i do wrong _now_
16:20:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41830&oldid=41829 * Elboza * (+1765)
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16:32:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41831&oldid=41830 * Elboza * (+424)
16:35:55 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, the javascript version gets stuck from time to time for me, refusing to process further events :/
16:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41832&oldid=41831 * Elboza * (+174)
16:37:52 <int-e> oh. "Cannot enlarge memory arrays." ... apparently 30x30 is too much for the thing.
16:39:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41833&oldid=41832 * Elboza * (+0)
16:41:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41834&oldid=41833 * Elboza * (+4)
16:43:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41835&oldid=41834 * Elboza * (+12)
16:44:07 <oren> my best friend might be getting a job in finland
16:44:35 <oren> how is the economy in finland these days?
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16:46:28 <fizzie> It's all relative, of course.
16:46:46 <fizzie> But I think Finland is technically still in a "slump".
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16:48:11 <fizzie> http://www.oecd.org/economy/surveys/economic-survey-finland.htm and I don't think things have improved terribly much since that was updated.
16:48:49 <oerjan> int-e: you don't have to use the web interface, there are native compiled versions you can download if you want.
16:49:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Web framework list]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41836 * Intgr * (+678) List of esoteric web application frameworks. Most of these are fully functional web frameworks that aren't about making the coder's life easier. Often they are a response to the hype wave surrounding some technologies (such as Ruby on Rails).
16:50:57 <int-e> oerjan: I know, but couldn't be bothered. The generated problems don't look all that interesting.
16:51:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Web framework list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41837&oldid=41836 * Intgr * (-55) Not a functional framework
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16:52:20 <int-e> oerjan: (I'm actually still at work.)
16:53:16 <oerjan> Bridges doesn't seem to generate very hard problems. although i recall it used to be even worse.
16:53:19 <int-e> Otoh I missed the source code in my previous visits to that website
16:54:15 <int-e> oerjan: increasing the size to 30x30 seemed to help a little. But of course then it becomes tedious to get to the few non-trivial conclusions.
16:54:28 <elliott> fizzie: nice (Re: computers)
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17:07:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Web framework list]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41838 * Intgr * (+870) Background for creating this pagfe
17:08:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Web framework list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41839&oldid=41837 * Intgr * (-98) Per discussion at [[Talk:Cobol on Cogs]], it's just a joke and not real working software
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20:30:10 <J_Arcane> whoah: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram
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20:40:58 <TieSoul> but couldn't they use quaternary instead of binary? would make storage more dense, right?
20:42:26 <TieSoul> like, A = 0, T = 1, C = 2, G = 3
20:42:49 <TieSoul> I wonder why they didn't do that
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21:29:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41840&oldid=41525 * 69.166.47.107 * (+384) Rely on SSRI and say 'hi-ho' in the coffee shop.
21:31:03 <myname> i guess that would be missleading if you start reading the wrong helix
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21:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41841&oldid=41835 * Elboza * (+72)
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21:55:48 <quintopia> tiesoul: even stranger that each binary value cknsists of both a purine and pyrimidine. you'd think it would easier to distinguish those from each other than those of the same shape
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23:10:17 <J_Arcane> Heh. Staring at a Javascript exercise unsure how to solve it, when some tinkering reveals you can more or less write point-free style in JS too, of a sort: function squareDigits(num){ return parseInt(num.toString().split("").map(function (x) { return x*x; }).join(""));}
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