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01:03:44 <Taneb> I am looking forward to Australia's entry to Eurovision this year
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01:18:49 * oerjan assumes Taneb is being serious
01:19:10 <Taneb> http://www.eurovision.tv/page/news?id=australia_to_participate_in_the_2015_eurovision_song_contest
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01:21:26 <oerjan> can we hope for some confused votes if both australia and austria reach the final
01:22:03 <oerjan> or is austria one of those countries who've stopped participating
01:22:38 <oerjan> hm nope, the final is actually _in_ austria
01:22:54 <oerjan> definitely some joke potential here
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01:27:15 <oerjan> ah, they already thought of "what if they win"
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01:34:33 <Taneb> oerjan, if they hadn't I'd vote for Australia just to see them panic
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02:17:58 <dulla> > let the = 0:11: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) (tail the) ((init . tail) $ the) in the
02:18:14 <dulla> > let the = 0:11: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) (tail the) ((init . tail) $ the) in take 7 the
02:19:27 <oerjan> please don't use offensive words like that in here
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02:20:58 <oerjan> i think the (init . tail) $ the is not lazy enough to work with just two elements known
02:21:05 <pikhq> Except in the context of discussion of, say, the works of Mark Twain.
02:21:18 <pikhq> (I guarantee that wasn't in such a context)
02:21:49 <elliott> even then, preferably, at least not in here
02:22:10 <oerjan> are you saying mark twain isn't esoteric
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02:22:48 <elliott> never the twain shall meet
02:24:50 <oerjan> dulla: if you are going to create an infinite list, then init is redundant anyhow
02:25:12 <dulla> leonardo numbers, yo
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02:26:00 <dulla> > let durr 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) durr tail durr in durr
02:26:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:54: parse error on input ‘in’
02:26:24 <dulla> > let durr 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) durr (tail durr) in durr
02:26:25 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:56: parse error on input ‘in’
02:26:34 <oerjan> needs work on the punctuation
02:27:00 <dulla> > let durr = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) durr (tail durr) in durr
02:27:02 <lambdabot> [1,1,3,5,9,15,25,41,67,109,177,287,465,753,1219,1973,3193,5167,8361,13529,21...
02:27:30 <dulla> Meanwhile I disconnect everwhere else
02:28:08 <dulla> If I recall leonardo numbers are okay for heaps
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02:33:05 <dulla> okay, for smooth sort
02:37:33 <oerjan> game idea: mark twain clones running around in 19th century san francisco, your goal is to keep them from meeting.
02:37:45 <oerjan> emperor norton will be included.
02:39:33 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
02:39:37 <oerjan> wait, it's not a clone, it's mark twain from a parallel universe where norton _actually_ rules.
02:39:57 <oerjan> dulla: lambdabot is not GHCi
02:40:23 <oerjan> it has :t and :k commands, but not much else
02:40:41 <oerjan> (from GHCi that is. it has many other commands.)
02:40:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
02:41:02 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:41:31 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
02:42:15 <dulla> We need more shadow of the Colossus
02:54:19 <Sgeo> "Because the Academy could not plan ahead, buildings were placed wherever they fit; they were attached to other buildings by a network of tunnels, bridges, and walkways that were rumored to have been the inspiration for a frustrated Professor Dijkstra’s famous pathfinding charm."
03:18:21 <dulla> anyone know about them zippers
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03:51:04 <Sgeo> I found a really.. weird spammer on reddit
03:51:27 <Sgeo> Posts images on a weird domain. Viewed from a desktop UA string, it's legitimate content, viewed from a mobile UA, it's a creepy porn ad
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03:56:19 <oerjan> huh i guess that was inevitable
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04:32:59 <Zefpher> ?!?! should make lambdabot flip out
04:33:47 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
04:33:54 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
04:34:02 <lambdabot> @dice <expr>. Throw random dice. <expr> is of the form 3d6+2.
04:34:12 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
04:37:27 <Zefpher> Monad structures make me confuse
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04:39:15 <dulla> something something encapsulating computations
04:39:30 <dulla> each of them has some kind of effect
04:39:54 <dulla> Maybe is the case of failure, Just a | Nothing, the latter being the failure
04:40:02 <Zefpher> ill just go back to making librarys for people
04:40:09 <dulla> Either can be more verbose, but can be used for choice
04:40:22 <dulla> Then there is List for multiple answers
04:40:30 <dulla> State for Mutable or Global States
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04:40:59 <dulla> No idea what Reader or Writer do
04:41:17 <dulla> Error throws an exception, which usually fucks a lot of things
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04:42:01 <dulla> Perhaps does range data, which is good for probablity
04:42:19 <dulla> And then there's there's the Monte Carlo
04:42:28 <Sgeo> Reader allows for pervasive read-only state. It's the same as passing the same thing into every function
04:42:56 <Sgeo> Writer is for write-only state, such as logging
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04:43:35 <dulla> > Monte Carlo is so that people can do arithmetic operations on probablistic distributions
04:43:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:35: parse error on input ‘do’
04:43:50 <dulla> or distribution curves
04:43:50 <Sgeo> Either and Error are... kind of the same
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04:43:56 <oerjan> a monad is just an endomorphism in the category of bad analogies hth
04:43:58 <Sgeo> At least when used as a monad
04:44:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
04:44:15 <Zefpher> Idk whats going on with my ban times but they exceed any actual universal date
04:44:22 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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04:45:05 <dulla> curious, irc clients somehow manage multiple network connections
04:45:23 <oerjan> oh wait s/endomorphism/monoid/
04:45:26 <Zefpher> how long is 78e+8000000000000000000 years?
04:45:27 <dulla> Not sure how to deal with that in a functional purview
04:45:58 <dulla> namely because of a very primitive, if any, understanding of juggling state or data
04:46:26 <dulla> the issue of multiple handles comes up again in writing to multiple log files at once
04:46:40 <Zefpher> Hmmm I find any language that requires a drag and drop variable type to very useful
04:46:53 <zzo38> Either x = CodensityAsk (Traced x) and I hoped they would add the corresponding MonadPlus Either instance. Shoudln't it be?
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04:47:16 <Zefpher> I forgot what is was called
04:47:39 <dulla> makes me think of a visual IDE, Zefpher
04:48:00 <lambdabot> <http://hackage.haskell.org/package/>, also see `revdeps'
04:48:48 <Zefpher> No but they were little tabs on a free white space and you just pulled variable strings to eachother and it made a nice big spider web of variables
04:49:09 <Zefpher> doesn't work anymore though
04:49:26 <dulla> Even Ethereum has that kind of thing already
04:50:29 <oerjan> > Left "hm" `mplus` Left "..." `mplus` Right 42
04:50:56 <oerjan> zzo38: isn't that the MonadPlus?
04:51:16 <lambdabot> ‘infinity’ (imported from Data.Number.Natural),
04:52:02 <Zefpher> Lets make a bot that can list out really big numbers
04:52:40 <Zefpher> who said we would join it here oerjan
04:53:10 <zzo38> > Left "hm" <|> Left "..."
04:53:34 <Zefpher> no but idk I'm just getting really big numbers
04:53:40 <zzo38> It isn't quite the one I wanted although it might do I suppose
04:54:04 <zzo38> It isn't the one achieved from CodensityAsk (Traced x) anyways
04:54:15 <oerjan> zzo38: if you mean the thing that does mappend on the Lefts, i thought that was only Applicative?
04:54:38 <zzo38> > Left "hm" `mplus` Left "..."
04:54:59 <dulla> > Right "a" `mplus` Left "b"
04:55:07 <zzo38> oerjan: Applicative? How is that?
04:55:15 <dulla> > Left "a" `mplus` Right "b"
04:55:24 <dulla> > Left "a" `mplus` Left "b"
04:55:29 <zzo38> I don't see how Applicative would do it.
04:55:34 <dulla> > Right "a" `mplus` Right "b"
04:55:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
04:55:36 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M211300074112954360827231.show_M2113000741129543608...
04:55:36 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
04:55:58 <Zefpher> two rights make a wrong dulla
04:56:01 <dulla> I can't add two Rights
04:56:22 <zzo38> The one that lambdabot seems to use is wrong
04:56:32 <zzo38> It doesn't follow the laws
04:56:40 <dulla> IT DOESN"T FOLLOW THE RULES
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04:56:51 <oerjan> zzo38: i meant Alternative i guess
04:57:08 <Zefpher> > Right "a" `mplus` left "a"
04:57:09 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Data.Either.Either GHC.Types.Char d’
04:57:13 <zzo38> The <|> is Alternative and it doesn't do it either
04:57:19 <lambdabot> ["hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora","hora...
04:57:27 <zzo38> > empty :: Either String String
04:57:32 <dulla> > concat . repeat $ "hora"
04:57:34 <lambdabot> "horahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahor...
04:57:35 <Zefpher> Why doesn't it follow the laws?!
04:57:51 <zzo38> > empty :: Either [Int] [Int]
04:57:52 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.Trans.Error.ErrorList GHC.Types.Int)
04:57:52 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘Control.Applicative.empty’
04:57:54 <dulla> > concat . repeat $ "hora"
04:57:56 <lambdabot> "horahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahorahor...
04:58:09 <zzo38> > Left "hm" <|> Left ""
04:58:21 <dulla> It seems right-biased
04:58:22 <zzo38> That violates the laws it is wrong
04:58:30 <dulla> What is associativity
04:58:43 <zzo38> Now I proved it is wrong.
04:58:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Data.Either.Either d b0’
04:59:10 <zzo38> Zefpher: You have to capitalize both "Left" and "Right"
04:59:19 <dulla> > concat . repeat $ "shoah"
04:59:21 <lambdabot> "shoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoahshoah...
04:59:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Now can you see it is all wrong?
04:59:56 <lambdabot> "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
05:00:21 <dulla> > [minBound..maxBound] :: [Char]
05:00:22 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SY...
05:00:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Char’
05:00:40 <lambdabot> Expected type: Control.Lens.Type.LensLike f s t c0 c0
05:00:40 <dulla> When I put that in ghci it spams me with \n
05:01:00 <dulla> not control characters
05:01:13 <Zefpher> lambdabot is having a dumb
05:01:26 <dulla> it freaks out in the middle of dumping ASCII 256 when I do it in ghci
05:01:31 <dulla> why does it do that
05:01:52 <dulla> why can't it putChar something int he Prelude's Char class
05:02:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know which law you claim it violates
05:02:28 <Zefpher> It just strings random variables out
05:02:58 <zzo38> oerjan: Monoid law
05:03:34 <dulla> fuck the MonadPlus Laws
05:04:01 <dulla> Fuck the MonadZero Laws
05:04:06 <dulla> Fuck the Monad Laws
05:04:12 <dulla> Fuck the Arrow "Laws"
05:04:24 <Zefpher> why can't I just have fun ;--;
05:05:02 <zzo38> I want the Alternative (Either x) and MonadPlus (Either x) instances which are the same one that you would achieve for free as if it was CodensityAsk (Traced x)
05:05:20 <zzo38> Which do follow the monoid laws properly
05:05:27 <Zefpher> raw :: empty should just output empty
05:05:28 <elliott> what are the implementations?
05:05:36 <Zefpher> or maybe I'm just a weirdo
05:06:21 <zzo38> I also made up a proper MonadPlus IO instance but people don't use it and use the wrong one instead.
05:06:59 <zzo38> (and the corresponding Alternative IO)
05:08:41 <oerjan> dulla: GHCi uses your locale settings as default for stdout's allowed characters
05:09:26 <dulla> so if I write to a txt I could see it all
05:10:40 <zzo38> My proper instance used the rightmost nonempty error if all of them are errors, but the wrong one failed to pay attention to whether or not it is empty.
05:11:08 <oerjan> zzo38: there is no requirement that mplus be a monoid operation.
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05:12:08 <zzo38> There is the requirement actually.
05:12:51 <zzo38> However the documentation is wrong anyways; it also gives the left zero law and right zero law. Actually the right zero law is wrong (it is true of some instances, but isn't actually a general law) while the left zero law is implied by the monad laws and is therefore redundant.
05:13:11 <zzo38> A lot of people don't believe me that it is implied by the monad laws and is therefore redundant.
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05:16:34 <oerjan> dulla: well it also uses it as default for files. you can use hSetEncoding if you want.
05:19:11 <oerjan> i mean that by default ghc uses locale settings for opened text files
05:19:31 <oerjan> but you can set them explicitly
05:21:21 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.MonadPlus
05:21:21 <lambdabot> ((->) (a0 -> Data.Maybe.Maybe a0)))
05:21:21 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘Control.Monad.mzero’
05:21:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.MonadPlus ((->) [t0]))
05:21:38 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘Control.Monad.mzero’
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05:23:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i believe you, although i'm a bit fishy on the details, but in mzero >>= f (1) mzero cannot produce an argument for f, so it is probably irrelevant what f is (2) mzero >>= return = mzero is a monad law. i expect you can use the third law to make it more precise?
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05:24:38 <oerjan> dulla: you seem to have some problems with the syntax...
05:25:29 <dulla> I don't know the syntax
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05:26:11 <dulla> There is a concept of willingness
05:26:16 <oerjan> i had the vague impression you knew some haskell but ok
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05:26:26 <dulla> But no concept in efficacy towards
05:26:55 <dulla> You can say I would like to dabble
05:27:42 <oerjan> i can say you are making no sense.
05:29:24 <dulla> I get that a lot, also
05:29:51 <dulla> But I manage to eventually understand something?
05:30:04 <dulla> I just need some kind of asshole to lecture me
05:30:42 <dulla> Something about someone else saying something makes me understand
05:32:21 <Zefpher> he's an asshole sometimes and likes to lecture I think
05:33:27 <dulla> Hey, Big Brother oerjan
05:33:52 <dulla> Also what is it with all these fucking germans saying sig heil today
05:34:14 <dulla> So you are saying oerjan is a loli
05:34:19 <dulla> I can get behind that
05:34:21 <Zefpher> It means something about victory
05:34:31 <Zefpher> Dulla don't spam unless you are a bot
05:34:40 <dulla> They call those kinds of women Sea Lions because they like to suck clam?
05:37:02 <oerjan> dulla: i am starting to get tempted to ban you. just so you know.
05:37:15 <elliott> dulla: this is your last warning btw
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05:40:19 <Zefpher> does the wiki have a clear rule set
05:40:33 <zzo38> You have to post only public domain files to esolang wiki is one thing
05:40:39 <Zefpher> or are people just happening to do #esoteric into their clients
05:41:10 <Zefpher> such grammar /I think that was correct/
05:41:12 <elliott> I think the wiki has rules? maybe?
05:41:24 <oerjan> we have Esolang:Policy
05:41:26 <elliott> thankfully people aren't generally jerks or gross to people on a wiki about esolangs
05:41:37 <elliott> so doing things case-by-case has worked fine so far
05:41:49 <int-e> It's probably one of those hard "common sense" things.
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05:42:34 <elliott> I don't really believe in common sense
05:42:58 <zzo38> No posting any file to esolang wiki which is not public domain; regardless if it is BSD, GPL, ordinary copyright, or otherwise, those aren't public domain, therefore they are all banned. Only public domain is allowed.
05:43:35 <zzo38> CC0 is public domain, so that is OK. SQLite is also public domain.
05:45:29 <zzo38> Those are the rules for posting files on esolang wiki.
05:45:50 <zzo38> (Also you shouldn't post wrong and irrelevant and spam stuff)
05:48:11 <zzo38> Do you like to make up any Magic: the Gathering cards or Pokemon cards?
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05:55:17 <Zefpher> can't I bypass that by making a private domain public for users coming directly from the esolangs wiki
05:55:41 <Zefpher> Which in all sense is very easy
06:00:08 <zzo38> If it is external you could do that
06:00:36 <zzo38> But for files posted on the wiki, no, it has to be public domain for everyone
06:01:19 <elliott> public domain means free of copyright
06:01:33 <int-e> to be clear "public domain" is a term from copyright; it means that everybody is free to use the contents on the wiki for whatever purpose they want.
06:05:09 <int-e> (It's also an oversimplification because most works cannot actually be put in the public domain anymore. So instead CC0 is a perpetual, transferrable, free license, without any strings attached.)
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06:47:40 <int-e> Sigh, information density 3.0... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/density.png
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06:50:42 <int-e> bye sleep, hi soul
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09:51:27 <elliott> int-e: btw, I'm not sure I believe that "most". you're german, right? that's the country typically known for having a bad time with PD
09:51:39 <elliott> at least in the US/UK I think PD is relatively simple/easy
09:51:50 <elliott> CC0 is a PD declaration whenever it can be, i.e. it tries to release all the rights it can
09:51:55 <elliott> (but failing that it gives a license)
09:51:59 <elliott> at least, that's my memory
09:52:16 <int-e> elliott: AFAIU the US has gotten rid of PD recently.
09:52:33 <elliott> that... sounds really unlikely?
09:52:34 <int-e> except for publicly fundet research and publications
09:52:44 <elliott> they like stopping things automatically falling into the PD
09:52:50 <elliott> but that's different from explicitly releasing it
09:53:13 <elliott> I would be *extremely* surprised if they got rid of that
09:53:18 <elliott> especially from not hearing about it
09:53:48 <int-e> I meant, specifically, donating works to the public domain.
09:54:07 <int-e> Not the automatic stuff, and not the expiry of copyright.
09:54:22 <elliott> I'd be very interested in a source, and a recommendation for sources to follow if I want to not miss news like that again, because right now I'm still extremely sceptical :)
09:54:31 <int-e> None of which is really applicable to the wiki (yet?)
09:54:38 <elliott> and googling doesn't turn anything up
09:55:56 <int-e> If I remember I'll do some research tonight. For now, I'll leave you with "The Problem" at http://creativecommons.org/about/cc0
09:56:17 <elliott> right, I know it's tricky in many jurisdictions
09:56:28 <elliott> (I'm the one who switched the wiki over to using CC0)
09:57:24 <int-e> Anyway I recall reading something about this being difficult in the US nowadays, but I'll try finding a source; my memory isn't the most reliable.
09:58:27 <elliott> I'm curious, but no obligation, heh
10:01:36 <int-e> Ultimately I believe it comes down to Article 14 of the Berne Convention, "The author, or after his death the persons or institutions authorized by national legislation, shall, with respect to original works of art and original manuscripts of writers and composers, enjoy the inalienable right to an interest in any sale of the work subsequent to the first transfer by the author of the work."
10:02:21 <int-e> Anyway, back to work...
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10:03:53 <int-e> (And no, that's not the reference I'm looking for.)
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15:41:03 <int-e> that doesn't look like a valid Fortran to C conversion to me.
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15:59:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AlPhAbEt]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41889&oldid=39837 * 94.176.102.31 * (+0) /* Combined operations */ Simple correction to inaccuracy
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