< 1424476805 712809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is exactly the [] and (++) analogues here < 1424476813 664050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can also use like, mconcat < 1424476823 577206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also just use functions directly though < 1424477115 42168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it feels like the amount of rep i get for a stackoverflow answer is inversely correlated to the amount of work it was... < 1424477200 606886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't surprise me < 1424477222 761465 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424477290 725281 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really surprise me either < 1424477327 866951 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :an answer that's easy to make is also easy to understand < 1424477410 847480 :R40UL!~R40UL@178-119-102-102.access.telenet.be QUIT : < 1424477464 820266 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... concat xs = foldr (.) [] (map (\x -> (\xs -> x ++ xs)) < 1424477474 127033 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be O(n)? < 1424477483 414263 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :n being all list elements < 1424477507 310772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's the same as foldr (++) [] < 1424477512 624163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you mean foldr (.) id but yeah) < 1424477534 777316 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah < 1424477537 805959 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1424477558 815900 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl would be n^2, wouldn't it? < 1424477562 190872 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: GHC probably fuses that into something simple < 1424477577 757072 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424477590 999638 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1424477628 821279 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah foldl is n^2 at least if it doesn't fuse, i'm not sure nowadays... < 1424477743 622575 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what is the advantage of using that function composition thingie instead of concat' = concat . reverse < 1424477775 634227 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just do foo:bar:[], couldn't you? < 1424477783 180679 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just want concat you can write foldr (++) [] < 1424477788 88851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed you were doing something more complicated than that < 1424477865 206619 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not quite sure, i have to take a look on how often i actually have to look into that list, but as far as i know it shouldn't happen that much < 1424477880 597123 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to know, though < 1424477891 308883 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell b_jonas but the way it is, it's not even turing complete, because there are only finitely many valid eodermdrone programs <-- you're jumping straight into our discussion of what TC means, i see < 1424477891 455426 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424478366 195929 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424478393 7029 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :callfornickmolting < 1424478544 236687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1424478558 244842 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1424478565 959447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :molting complete < 1424479235 852183 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1424479348 404271 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopia < 1424479366 537934 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there appears to be a boily shortage < 1424479466 394570 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424480169 286019 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424480450 270507 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424480709 323842 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* hit the power button again < 1424480724 704100 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately i restarted fast enough it didn't disconnect < 1424480752 286815 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already changed it from "reboot" to hibernate, i think i shall change it to "do nothing" < 1424480841 397417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, i never really use it anyway; whenever i _actually_ reboot it's to restart immediately. < 1424481001 770954 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424481139 285324 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424482058 250103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424482685 328150 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424482735 289192 :merdach!~r@c-71-59-196-85.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1 < 1424482804 193547 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tjvqglpwlcoysiap QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1424483017 501297 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1424483504 975383 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424483614 589262 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1424484226 129764 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424485115 674840 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDream < 1424485429 255761 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424486037 335937 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424486168 597616 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424486287 788132 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1424486391 717430 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src < 1424486391 864012 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :src . Display the implementation of a standard function < 1424486423 634824 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src src < 1424486423 818057 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Do you think like you type? < 1424486540 431857 :arjanb!8259ab0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.171.12 QUIT :Quit: zzz < 1424486608 256610 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src id < 1424486608 404826 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :id x = x < 1424486608 851933 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDream < 1424486664 458395 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src not < 1424486664 604793 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not True = False < 1424486664 612647 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not False = True < 1424486670 384858 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424486879 703053 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@activity 3600 < 1424486879 849610 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :112*total 93*private 9*#haskell-blah 5*#esoteric 4*#haskell 1*#scannedinavian < 1424487148 611206 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1424487361 5669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok girl genius, _that_ was unexpected. < 1424487493 814731 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for time travel being involved. < 1424487504 17335 :kapil___!uid36151@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nmctadhnbpivsgls JOIN :#esoteric < 1424487527 305802 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it'll still be involved _elsewhere_, presumably.) < 1424487681 779024 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn esoteric < 1424487682 643020 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** "esoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1424487682 789591 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric < 1424487682 789714 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : adj 1: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened < 1424487682 789789 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical < 1424487682 789861 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : theories" [ant: {exoteric}] < 1424488223 56539 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ziyeqrqrokvmipvm JOIN :#esoteric < 1424491144 86318 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424492831 380232 :merdach!~k@2610:10:20:978::198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424493696 989855 :_1_lyndero3!~WhatsChat@168.27.15.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424493704 472711 :_1_lyndero3!~WhatsChat@168.27.15.70 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1424493739 258855 :_1_lyndero3!~WhatsChat@168.27.15.70 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424494195 328557 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1424494720 73205 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the worst that could happen if I upload this music to YouTube? < 1424495154 320676 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one sounds like someone really playing a real piano... and making mistakes :/ < 1424495922 724911 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424495947 518574 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1424496185 854931 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424496346 637087 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://runt-of-the-web.com/amazingly-unhelpful-fun-facts < 1424496470 913883 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://horseysurprise.tumblr.com/ < 1424496858 454364 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that tumblr site not only has too small text, but it neutralizes attempts to zoom it. i suggest killing it with fire. < 1424497029 296125 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, agreeing with me on this is mandatory hth < 1424497054 960882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION may have waited a bit too long to eat
< 1424497210 956627 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*attempts to neutralize attempts to zoom it < 1424497237 251510 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in IE it succeeds. < 1424497307 767802 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just made me open IE. I shall not forgive you. < 1424497347 790737 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fails for me in IE too. Where fail is defined as "not as effective as perfect neutralization would be" < 1424497381 378693 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i define "neutralization" as "prevents getting it to an actually readable size" hth < 1424497431 624813 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was able to increase the size, slower than I should have been able to, but it still increased each time < 1424497451 721844 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides the images are usually the important part < 1424497474 986643 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's the images where zoom isn't working well :/ < 1424497477 777716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um ok i actually meant the image hth < 1424497508 680420 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid geeks taking blathering literally < 1424497512 967356 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLicking the image then clicking the image works for me < 1424497535 983551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you didn't read the part where i said agreeing was mandatory hth < 1424497569 999328 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s ok my blood sugar should return to normal soon. unless it overshoots again. < 1424497666 709857 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diabetes, or just bad regular eating habits? < 1424497704 299309 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i somehow waited for 8 hours before eating < 1424497764 659409 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :diabetes runs in the family but i didn't have it when tested two years ago. < 1424497807 863704 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some point I might need to get tested for it. < 1424497818 968641 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out it runs in the family for me as well. < 1424497829 29708 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :("somehow" ~ "started trawling a webcomic archive for an old strip") < 1424497840 525570 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1424497859 492214 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :never found it. maybe i'm imagining the strip, or have misremembered the character involved < 1424497921 863280 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What comic what strip? < 1424497937 359445 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I'm especially likely to know personally < 1424497940 148281 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet another fantasy gamer comic < 1424497949 676382 :kapil___!uid36151@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nmctadhnbpivsgls QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1424497967 900728 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's the name btw) < 1424497995 112630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current act reintroduces some rather old characters that haven't been seen in a while < 1424497998 259565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*arc < 1424498066 336660 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought there was a strip where dewcup met those ranna worshippers in arachne's dungeon < 1424498083 899021 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except i'm not sure if they had shown up yet < 1424498099 670032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think it may have been someone other than dewcup < 1424498175 909016 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't expect anyone else here to know, anyway.
< 1424498186 883543 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try /r/tipofmytongue ? < 1424498187 603635 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424498200 356253 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or any comic-specific forums < 1424498237 400789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i was going to check which arc the worshippers showed up in < 1424498325 997113 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's moved servers so the whole archive has been reorganized < 1424498946 509547 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The word 'onomatopoeia' is also an onomatopoeia because it's derived from the sound produced when the word is spoken aloud." < 1424499045 549466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i was confusing dewcup with jone. < 1424500262 604586 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424502894 426553 :kapil___!uid36151@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdvaxwsuvkqcvtel JOIN :#esoteric < 1424504861 913910 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 1 < 1424504868 333534 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm < 1424504888 370589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!echo 1 < 1424504890 527564 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1424505134 747680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well that was an unexpected girl genius development. < 1424505184 122129 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it now, I haven't even read Wednesday's GG yet. < 1424505329 904001 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose someone might have predicted it. < 1424505462 930003 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it surprised me. < 1424505480 445501 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :King of all cats... I remembered that. < 1424506476 159442 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't recall Krosp being explicitly connected to Dr. Vapnoople < 1424506791 685586 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1424506827 158730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried looking up some of that earlier < 1424506883 417731 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttp://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Krosp_I is helpful, but the story of Krosp's creation didn't reveal the creator < 1424506925 530928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked at wikia too and got frustrated because so many references were to the novels < 1424507064 737513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well krosp is seen hiding when she first meets dr. dim < 1424507128 506875 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he's been hiding on the airship ever since his creation, so all I read into that is that there was some convenient hiding place nearby < 1424507228 810798 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it doesn't really matter; even if it has been mentioned before I probably wouldn't have remembered it < 1424507248 684035 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040319 < 1424507335 138952 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. thanks. < 1424507989 295725 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424508462 556539 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424509166 240720 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424510006 346860 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip98-177-176-240.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: sleep < 1424510114 496089 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424510786 347440 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1424510794 795280 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1424511195 378402 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi vanila < 1424511250 599411 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the OS i wrote < 1424511256 497622 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000000 0583 8000 000b eb01 00f7 0000 b002 1bad < 1424511256 644093 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000010 0003 0001 4ffb e451 000c 0000 0000 0000 < 1424511256 790879 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000020 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 < 1424511275 218304 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/VX4TjY0.png < 1424511874 471412 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh :) < 1424511919 988857 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that's a hexdump of the bootblock? < 1424511950 438758 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and boot it with GRUB < 1424511980 809205 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :itsj ust a multiboot header + loop that increments some address < 1424511998 602623 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424512004 11922 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I can't figure out how to do is boot it on a real computer :\ < 1424512015 15124 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried usb drive but it doesnt work < 1424512052 441719 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about multiboot < 1424512100 99234 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, i don't think i've ever gone beyond booting from a floppy < 1424512142 602718 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424512305 772821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: we had a discussion here at one time about System F / second order logic, you can look at that as a complexity class if you want and it contains ackermann and even the goodstein sequence < 1424512349 839027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone here wrote up an implementation of the latter in non-recursive rank-N haskell, which is basically equivalent) < 1424512411 223597 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1424512505 377583 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you don't know how much it freaked me out to see you talking about webcomics and killing webpages with fire, in the logs < 1424512523 614628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1424512544 952692 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew, maybe that wasn't you? < 1424512556 561758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it was me, but still, huh? < 1424512575 631410 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1424512575 788228 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69 | < 1424512575 934364 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69 | < 1424512575 934510 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69/| < 1424512575 934585 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69 >\ < 1424512580 95942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most webcomics i read i learned about in this channel) < 1424512581 23169 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just booted it for real < 1424512594 885571 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: psst your script is running twice or something < 1424512610 264097 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ < 1424512610 410376 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69  |    |    |    |    | < 1424512610 410498 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69  |    |    |    |    ¦ < 1424512610 410578 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69 /'\   |\  /<    |\  ´¸¨ < 1424512610 410650 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :69  |\  /´\  /'\  /|    >\ < 1424512613 62390 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1424512621 242588 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been noticed before < 1424512632 407865 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they look like keys < 1424512638 653217 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1424512666 764557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: most webcomics i've followed i learned about via this channel < 1424512701 811667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: my huh is because i don't know why that freaked you out. < 1424512750 647121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as someone who has recently become a lot more dependent on zooming webpages, it irritates me a lot when they make it hard. < 1424512848 124377 :Korok!~Korok@unaffiliated/korok JOIN :#esoteric < 1424512865 962567 :Korok!~Korok@unaffiliated/korok PART :#esoteric < 1424512946 212748 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, by the way, a fungot status update. Our Internet arrives on March 3, but I'll be out of the country from March 2 to 13, so I have a fungot ETA of maybe mid-March. < 1424512950 719988 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: never mind -- I think there's something wrong with me. < 1424512979 139636 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Very suboptimal.) < 1424512986 781070 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you don't happen to have another way of making HackEgo join a channel, do you? it's actually connected... < 1424513005 242934 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one but it's convoluted. < 1424513019 948284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i'd give you the standard lewis carroll quote but HackEgo isn't here... < 1424513048 550902 :devdean1!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1424513121 247678 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Anyway, I have to just conclude that complexity theorists don't care about the upper reaches < 1424513144 634854 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can almost hear them yawn when it gets bigger than NP < 1424513145 602159 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that seems likely < 1424513174 88423 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah that's not true, PSPACE and EXP get a fair workout don't they < 1424513201 787621 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true, I've seen them be interested in PSPACE at least < 1424513297 870551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you could maybe make a case for "only classes not known to be larger than NP" < 1424513325 782770 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that anyone here would necessarily know offhand, but: like Ackermann is sort of the poster-child for "not in PR", are there any obvious candidates for "not in "? < 1424513331 194821 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, even guesses would be fine < 1424513341 251912 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just be a little irked if there are no "natural" examples < 1424513353 231210 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that Ackermann is particularly natural < 1424513359 442939 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But compared to some things, it is < 1424513417 281601 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait < 1424513421 954352 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot, I don't actually care. < 1424513431 285935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fiendish < 1424513442 842524 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nihilism is harder than it looks, isn't it < 1424513492 957572 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1424513524 882197 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles innocently
< 1424513559 245435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles 4'33'' innocently
< 1424513564 672208 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just get the feeling that there's no point in me trying to understand these things, because I'm sure I never will. This grates against the fact that they fascinate me. < 1424513642 219965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that when you look at very small or very large complexity classes things tend to get intertwined with logic questions < 1424513694 264893 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does seem reasonable, once you get above EXP and friends, to stop treating it as complexity and start treating it as computability < 1424513726 220264 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the thing being investigated? < 1424513736 97147 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: hard to say < 1424513751 608671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, laptop is up and keyboard is connected to phone. < 1424513762 842641 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next, I need to something something something. < 1424513778 358981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i know any problems between goodstein/hydra things and the halting problem/busy beaver stuff < 1424513795 936493 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, there's no nc on Android shell. < 1424513802 738250 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: algorithms that run a long, loooong, loooooooong time, but we still know that they eventually finish <-- very approximate way to describe it < 1424513827 895725 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: good man < 1424513828 799291 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a really interesting topic < 1424513833 605228 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can push the SSH key from the laptop to the phone (which is the only thing Internetted here), but I'm not sure how to get it to somewhere else. < 1424513841 170446 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: at least I know about the hydra, but I'll have to refresh myself on goodstein < 1424513843 661831 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can get a bit philosophical < 1424513857 502922 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think they're sort of on the same level < 1424513899 697474 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are about things that can grow a lot in size but always shrink as ordinals < 1424513929 419557 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah as soon as you get to the point of needing transfinite induction to prove that it terminates... sheesh < 1424513953 344684 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i can see why this is not a well-trodden area < 1424514042 92014 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably overthinking things, too < 1424514146 120865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it. I pushed the files to Download/ but they're not visible there. < 1424514159 940591 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cool thing about the dependent type theory as opposed to something like charity is you can write programs that take a very very long time to halt < 1424514164 19409 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the storage indexer thing doesn't refresh from just an adb push. < 1424514206 274514 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe the "Downloads" list and the Download/ folder aren't a 1:1 thing at all. < 1424514236 957928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fiendish < 1424514434 913460 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424514468 86211 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might have got it < 1424514576 85423 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ebola virus? < 1424514589 527605 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The server is being really really slow. < 1424514597 914182 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :again :( < 1424514605 728380 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the slowver < 1424514635 941025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not so slow that HackEgo is pinging out... < 1424514656 367613 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424514661 384929 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is done. < 1424514665 748317 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :whee! < 1424514667 73548 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was stupidly complicated. < 1424514669 178019 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mad < 1424514697 746897 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took maybe 5 seconds to reply to simple shell commands, so I don't expect the umlbox stuff will run very fast. < 1424514733 811062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone is DOSing the wiki. it could happen. < 1424514747 408252 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe CloudAtCost. < 1424514777 477506 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have a look at network traffic, but I need some breakfast first. < 1424514779 97293 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." < 1424514790 839633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ^ quote < 1424514883 365241 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/installation/Cheshire_Text <-- but you need to read the whole thing, top to bottom, for it to work < 1424514911 921697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't imagine why < 1424514921 583126 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1424515136 523571 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that went rather more quickly than I expected... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cheshire.png < 1424515403 123430 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hmm, couldn't the same effect be achieved by a CSS transition?) < 1424515466 938060 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :grin grin grin < 1424515514 466677 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought: a brainfuck OS < 1424515525 697362 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel is in assembly and has interrupts for each of <, >, +, -, ., ... < 1424515548 349956 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can compile a brainfuck program into syscalls.. but then someone could still use registers and things < 1424515619 479333 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSoul < 1424515906 535260 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you feel overwhelmed, go with minor-closed graph classification, which takes only cubic time. < 1424515922 566663 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: I like the idea of one syscall per BF instruction for some reason < 1424515936 992361 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a certain terrible elegance < 1424515943 320492 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like things with a certain terrible elegance < 1424515963 444136 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1424516560 716171 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which, I should write that recursive-{de,a}scent {parse,generato}r I've been meaning to < 1424516809 603324 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursive scent < 1424517469 268162 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424517522 714322 :bluckbot!~k@162.243.245.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424517737 372277 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I am going to steal that term if you don't mind < 1424517747 739999 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in this implementation < 1424517793 608430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this smells of recognition < 1424517830 308681 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1424518048 146685 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many curses < 1424518144 419775 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1424518271 354157 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :done. can anyone recommend a pastebin? < 1424518327 868901 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I just know you are all pastebin connoisseurs < 1424518360 410276 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gist it is! < 1424518469 901756 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/cpressey/dd3f63eda91b33e429fa < 1424518503 27925 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you may all tell me that I should have done it with monads, dependent types, and CSS transitions < 1424518754 874304 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: are you going to ask for justifications of such claims? < 1424518763 62860 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not I'd be happy to oblige. < 1424518784 259226 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I sometimes use dpaste < 1424519046 589654 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, I'll just say "oh, I know, I know" like Mrs. Fawlty on the phone < 1424519092 298344 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1424519357 301405 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely monads yeah < 1424519507 104762 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know, I know < 1424519678 302626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e will have to take care of the CSS transitions and elliott the dependent types < 1424519937 364473 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424520058 709007 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1424520246 398844 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on i just woke up < 1424520272 411701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the sake of fantasy i would like you all to believe that i have irc pings hooked up to an alarm < 1424520493 548885 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: < 1424520539 209063 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean CTCP pings, hmm < 1424520575 516077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time i am talked to i have to hit the alarm off. please be considerate and leave me alone forever < 1424520700 300447 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you got the reverse psychology idea wrong. < 1424520738 308257 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *can* go around explaining a new toy to children, then forbid them to use it. But you shouldn't be surprised if they end up playing with them anyway. < 1424520751 87905 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/them/it/ < 1424520777 736018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like the utter certainty all of you would spend hours setting off my alarm were it real is why this channel sucks so much < 1424520835 905396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: this is cute. there is work on this kind of thing in The Literature, i think < 1424520843 92227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :parser combinators that go both ways, etc. < 1424520962 411683 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "both ways" http://hackage.haskell.org/package/boomerang < 1424521035 850589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. there's like, an Actual Name for it and Actual Papers. maybe "reversible grammar" or something, I don't know. < 1424521047 695185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get things like, instead of fmap taking a function it takes an isomorphism < 1424521054 135951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one function for each direction < 1424521062 702657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: am I academising sufficiently here? < 1424521749 300534 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424521967 942814 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : for the sake of fantasy i would like you all to believe that i have irc pings hooked up to an alarm < 1424521978 546623 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done this in the past & suspect someone else does this < 1424522010 971047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: like a proper alarm or just making your computer make a lot of noise < 1424522015 457074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally it should be like, clockwork < 1424522039 355824 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh just the computer, but t woldnt be too hard with an adruino or something.. < 1424522103 347145 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, thank you. i realize it is nothing very special, but i think it's cute too < 1424522230 720570 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversible parsing is very awkward < 1424522237 870685 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing is not usually a bijection < 1424522247 333932 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of things like skipping whitespace, comments < 1424522268 881333 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :iits better to specify a parse as something that if you print it out and parse that you get the same thing < 1424522332 826989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand it's often kinda useful not to drop things like comments in an AST so you can do things like error reporting and code transformations without disturbing things like that (but it is awkward yeah) < 1424522624 909770 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "a certain terrible elegance" that i referred to means "it suggests an algebra" because what is interesting me right now is, are there any operation-sets besides "parse" and "generate" that make any sense < 1424522651 540206 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can only think of fairly contrived ones, and minor (relatively) variations on those two < 1424522691 86155 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"count terminals in grammar" is not exactly interesting < 1424522706 14310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the operations in http://matt.might.net/articles/parsing-with-derivatives/, maybe? < 1424522723 665727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(taking the derivative with respect to a token, deciding whether a grammar admits an empty string, etc.) < 1424522733 859134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not doable with the imperative recursive-descent style though so n/m < 1424522740 855859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the empty < 1424522782 12804 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1424522787 929579 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this code makes it abundantly clear that the RDP could be a passive data structure instead of a set of functions < 1424522790 528526 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt empyness undecidable for CFG? < 1424522806 992544 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its decidable < 1424522816 748866 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it admits a notion of derivative too? < 1424522818 705284 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :intersection of 2 being empty is, i thnk < 1424522832 337804 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that might let you determine equality which is undecidable.. < 1424522853 746534 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's no derivative for CFGs then < 1424522872 235728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: that article is about derivative for CFGs < 1424523000 967359 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1424523002 725767 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1424523018 430447 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed it was about regex < 1424523039 918620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about using derivatives to parse arbitrary CFGs < 1424523290 497852 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1424523296 310923 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is that the derivative is an infinite object < 1424523310 792030 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that stops you from being able to use it to determine equality < 1424523593 848221 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember coming across derivative of regular languages a few years ago; you can basically extend it to a kind of linear algebra, which is neat. didn't realize you could extend it to CFL's < 1424523613 229965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: well, it's infinite if the original grammar is, I think < 1424523622 479773 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of left recursion < 1424523627 890782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, not necessarily, sometimes it can be finite < 1424524243 308327 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There's no backtracking in the algorithm." <-- for some reason that made me interrobang < 1424524266 503453 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is actually quite cool < 1424524270 574444 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1424524619 318958 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm probably not understanding it entirely correctly, but it's like the memoization and fixed-point parts avert any possibility of backtracking, early on < 1424524641 495971 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you looked at the regex version of this? < 1424524655 721858 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use derivatives of regexes to build a DFA < 1424525323 885334 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: yes, in a book, probably about 8 years ago :/ < 1424525344 839257 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424525345 561305 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the linear alg thing was what stuck in my mind < 1424525693 587571 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the no-backtracking property might mean it'd be good for parsing streams (e.g. data over a socket) too < 1424526990 209989 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end it almost sounds like they want to add some "hash-consing" to it too :) < 1424528371 407498 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424528559 773720 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424528616 349209 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1424528992 878988 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424529235 293899 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1424530915 107295 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 wait, doesn't it have to be the other way around? You need a mapping (O(n) or otherwise) from TMs to programs in language X, for X to be TC < 1424530915 290414 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424530975 699390 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a mapping from at least 1 universal TM to at least 1 program in language X, X is fancy-L-complete or whatever < 1424531067 907241 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a lot of "naturally occurring" "compiler mappings" like these that exceed O(n log n), but it might be nice to have some contrived examples < 1424531485 663729 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some esolang where programs have to be arranged "just so" and a compiler from-TM-to-it has to take that into account when constructing the target program < 1424531524 957959 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to fit the commands into a tesselation or something, so compiling to it requires solving a NP hard puzzle < 1424531594 556980 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: exactly, something like that < 1424531607 180931 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, there are two esolangs called "Numberwang" < 1424531788 932324 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424531847 463282 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i can't find anything on esolangs.org that fits the bill offhand, but that thing's huge now :) < 1424531895 980236 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of them might fit the bill, if we knew more about them :) < 1424532004 745413 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424532025 321590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs anything like that when you have masterpieces like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pig < 1424532067 221039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is esolangs.org HSTS yet < 1424532113 25912 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where are the languages based on qubits? < 1424532265 239152 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424532478 609385 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-hard might still = P, who knows, so I'd prefer something EXPTIME-complete < 1424532525 806109 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to remember that I don't really care before I actually try to devise something like this < 1424532592 713772 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: there are some: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=qubit&title=Special%3ASearch < 1424532622 124930 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1424532641 147359 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1424533036 750970 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424533051 951408 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424533104 456706 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, NP-hard is definitely larger than P < 1424533138 747047 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/P_np_np-complete_np-hard.svg < 1424533141 125245 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-hard includes everything that is outside P, doesn't it? < 1424533146 862634 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1424533154 740750 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1424533187 920532 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :An EXPBLARGL program consists of a description of a Turing machine, a number k, and a Befunge program. To run an EXPBLARGL program, first you determine if the given TM halts in k steps. If it does, you run the Befunge program. If it doesn't, you run 99 bottle of beer on the wall, or something. < 1424533215 31219 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, uh, k must exqual the size of teh Befunge program < 1424533235 526407 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the compiler can always just pick easy TMs < 1424533249 720798 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the Befunge program has to double as the TM description < 1424533270 110066 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only reason I chose Befunge is because I was going to choose brainfuck but then Phantom_Hoover walked in < 1424533291 513109 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I thought NP-hard meant >= NP-complete < 1424533311 792265 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1424533327 102138 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it includes problems which aren't in P or NP < 1424533343 39340 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, is NP-complete not in NP? < 1424533352 845787 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-complete is in NP < 1424533371 727494 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if x is NP-hard it might be NP-complete which might (WHO KNOWS) be in P < 1424533385 11377 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a concrete example, the halting problem is NP-hard but not in NP < 1424533408 110353 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes but "NP-hard but not in NP" is not the same as "NP-hard" < 1424533412 145453 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/P_np_np-complete_np-hard.svg NP complete is a lemon < 1424533458 628821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks more like an american football < 1424533459 159632 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh, were you talking about individual problems rather than the classes as a whole? < 1424533494 558348 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, I'm trying to make a contrived language to which you can't compile a TM in O(n log n) because ais523 < 1424533501 72557 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1424533587 62975 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure that matters, given the diagram vanila linked to, but I don't really care < 1424533759 883124 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1424533852 805532 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1424533870 993014 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424533876 674162 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: unefunge < 1424533897 398596 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424533898 539392 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unefunge or blank would be simpler < 1424533922 32876 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXPBLARGL as defined is only P-complete b/c the length is effectively given in unary < 1424533927 870045 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme try again < 1424534008 310804 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, sorry, I'm going to use brainfuck because it's convenient. besides, it will give Phantom_Hoover something to blog about < 1424534051 977211 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424534053 116138 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :an EXPLBARGL program is a brainfuck program except first you interpret it as a base-8 number and call than n and then you only run it if you determine it does *not* halt in n steps < 1424534102 431548 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, EXPLBLARGL was actually a typo there, but that's fine < 1424534109 348531 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: regarding the complexity of compiling stuff to Turing machines, how do you represeny Turing machines? If an n state Turing machine requires O(n log n) data then that should also be a lower bound for a compiler. < 1424534137 100205 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How about some sort of incremental XOR? < 1424534295 596857 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A turing machine requires potentially unbounded memory, depending on what is to be compiled. < 1424534337 386690 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't know if that's what you're asking. < 1424534349 108657 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well, the "obvious" way to me to describe a TM has length O(nm) where n is # states and m is # symbols. but if ais523 is going to allow some tricky compression, I dunno < 1424534386 951870 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: yeah, that's not a problem, I'm only considering compiling TMs to other languages that also have unbounded storage < 1424534475 56800 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh, EXPLBLARGL still fails < 1424534487 661313 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think? < 1424534494 738949 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ah I was thinking about a fixed number of symbols. How do you avoid the log n factor? < 1424534532 837196 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1424534535 348235 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt this impossible? < 1424534549 241084 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1424534550 630908 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about that kthing where you write an interpreter for another lagnuage, then provide your code as data < 1424534586 728468 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter is a fixed number of characters and the data can probably be at worst a unary encoded number < 1424534595 86902 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1424534597 931461 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't see any need to avoid it myself. I think it's ais523 who's aiming for O(n). I'm just observing there aren't many cases where you need a compiler that is more than O(n log n) < 1424534604 314646 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the log n is for the symbol table < 1424534609 513592 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waves hands a lot
< 1424534625 50847 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, fresh air! < 1424534662 252375 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, well? < 1424534686 144651 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what were you asking about the impossibility of? < 1424534691 464998 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1424534699 571338 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiling things to turing machines, or compiling turing machines to other things? < 1424534723 928233 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: compiling TMs to other things and needing more than O(n log n) time to do it < 1424534728 764626 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: Which shows that you need to be precise with the rules. Is providing extra data on the tape allowed? Of course you can prefix the interpreter by code that initialises the tape but then you /may/ run into issues with encoding the state numbers in O(1) symbols. < 1424534815 931807 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's easy to devise encodings for TMs where this works (for example you can encode references to the "next" state by a fixed string) < 1424534827 492612 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a (bad) example, compiling a TM to a Perl program shouldn't require more than O(n) time, where n is the length of the TM description (and yes, I'm assuming things like, the TM description is given as a table, and it starts with a blank tape) < 1424534973 217092 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :emit prelude; for each transition in table { emit a bit of Perl with if statements and goto statements }; emit postlude /* probably not even needed here */ < 1424534977 605029 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424535007 258971 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :prelude defines a global variable for the tape and whatnot < 1424535031 226253 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd emit a TM interpreter followed by the TM description < 1424535047 707672 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheating? maybe, but where exactly do you draw the line? < 1424535050 876833 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the program oculd be encrypted, so to compile to something eslseyou have to decrypt it < 1424535055 341751 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that could require brute force < 1424535067 604280 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424535078 40979 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSoul < 1424535089 79928 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter for the program would have to do the same decryption work of course, so it wouldnt' be a efficient programming language < 1424535137 226706 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not cheating at all; in fact that's O(n) too. question is, is there any target language where you can't do it in O(n log n), even given tricks like that < 1424535162 884432 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/where/into which/ maybe for clarity or maybe that makes it even less clear < 1424535240 416084 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sure, take some enumeration of Brainfuck programs; encode the n-th program by the n-th fibonacci number in unary. < 1424535321 169807 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's very artificial. I don't know of any natural restriction on a programming language with such an effect. < 1424535339 51049 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe compiling to a 2-counter Minsky machine would do the trick < 1424535396 347909 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably that won't help either (modulo the encoding-dependent log(n) factor that I already mentioned for Turing machines) < 1424535423 892592 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: artifical or not, that does seem to do the trick < 1424535609 5506 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's to pathological, conjecture-defeating constructions! < 1424535626 895363 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheers < 1424535725 9029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you considered "Eightebed II" as a name for whatever this is < 1424535759 69767 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: er well no, as it seems so, y'know, different < 1424535769 995955 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really a scion of the House of Eightebed, as it were < 1424535798 106093 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that that matters much, I grant < 1424535833 89615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just reacting to "pathological, conjecture-defeating constructions" < 1424535850 805411 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, there's that < 1424535891 55363 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've read "Counterexamples in Analysis" and "Counterexamples in Topology", now comes "Counterexamples in Computability"! < 1424535933 941983 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum. "Beginning May 1, 2015, new Mac apps and app updates submitted to the Mac App Store may no longer use garbage collection, which was deprecated in OS X Mountain Lion. Instead, migrate your apps to Automatic Reference Counting" < 1424535983 940936 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :first they tell you what programming language you must use. then they tell you what algorithms you must use. < 1424536038 370141 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Beginning May 30, 2015, new Mac apps must not use Bubble Sort" < 1424536047 660397 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424536091 91396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure that only means the objective-c garbage collector >_> < 1424536093 741923 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's mandata Fibonacci heaps for all implementations of Dijkstra's algorithm... < 1424536099 608810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be kind of surprised if they rejected, like, boehm < 1424536102 780280 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raising the bar! < 1424536154 761812 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca QUIT :Quit: IMPLODING CHICKEN < 1424536163 186227 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "mandata". < 1424536855 426686 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A brainfuck-like language that only runs the program if it cannot find a shorter program that outputs the same result in less than 2^n steps < 1424536893 863996 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :still contrived, of course < 1424537000 675159 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, hey, Kolmogorov. can't beat Kolmogorov < 1424537202 948734 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it becomes trickier if the program gets inputs < 1424537230 908944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one time I looked at a book about kolmogorov complexity and it cited a person in this channel all over the place < 1424537241 438949 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"trickier" < 1424537241 923324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was weird < 1424537268 186617 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION scrolls up
< 1424537305 835492 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: did it cite them by nick? < 1424537312 582390 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT would be a bit weird < 1424537326 699869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: insofar as their nick is -- well, let's not speak too loudly < 1424537368 136209 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION guesses
< 1424537438 927628 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424537466 220627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, of course, it was you < 1424537624 631210 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, this was fun. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/v6/ < 1424537656 695232 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you assembled it scrambed?? < 1424537658 362304 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :scrambled < 1424537678 768781 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly. only the corners need to be correct. < 1424537692 380139 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats dangerous! < 1424537696 354018 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know it would be a solvable state < 1424537698 764364 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said... < 1424537714 48195 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The corners are the only thing that mattes at even sizes. < 1424537722 424778 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*matters* < 1424537727 299767 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424537743 705809 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :For odd sizes, you need to be careful with the center pieces of the edges as well. < 1424537752 62060 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still thinking on this Fast Fourier stuff. it's very interesting. < 1424537757 930319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh ~bf3 probably isn't a reference to brainfuck... < 1424537761 968969 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it b_jonas? < 1424537766 357527 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nor battlefield < 1424537785 839112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly i don't understand the mechanism inside rubik's cubes < 1424537787 155157 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It was my account name at my first university. < 1424537789 594457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :their rotational abilities are a mystery to me < 1424537798 164987 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424537800 144087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't tell me. i love the mystery < 1424537803 209405 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which one? the 3x3, or some different size? < 1424537807 873155 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Have you ever taken apart a 3x3x3 one? < 1424537819 504982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. honestly I've had very little interactions with them full stop < 1424537834 995730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've probably tried to solve one, like, five times. < 1424537842 859268 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the best way to understand it is to take a 3x3x3 apart then < 1424537843 42095 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: there are, like, twisty-turny things inside it < 1424537867 791649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: just how the algorithms work in detail and when it's worth to use what variant < 1424537880 698511 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should try to implement some as a test < 1424537881 423864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: thanks < 1424537884 753600 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah alright < 1424537893 24760 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 3x3x3 one is actually really simple. There are exactly as many moving parts as you can see (thinking of the cross in the middle as fixed) < 1424537924 75946 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I encountered a rubik's cube that had differently shaped tiles instead of different colors, that thing really looked like it shouldn't spin at all < 1424537928 932494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does the complexity of the internals scale with the size < 1424537933 7509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it superexponential < 1424537949 577691 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: do you mean the silver mirror cube in particular, or some other variant? < 1424537967 760016 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got myself a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaminx recently. < 1424537968 6733 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's the one < 1424537978 266817 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hard to tell, because they can't do it for arbitrarily large size, and I think there's more than one mechanism for some large sizes < 1424537981 770866 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit odd :) < 1424537992 269401 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily the 3x3x3 is the most natural < 1424537998 923835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: wow this is terrifying < 1424538000 663772 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of what int-e says < 1424538001 683152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the silver mirror one < 1424538006 815502 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it might be *easier* to figure out how it works from a silver mirror cube < 1424538008 471203 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's GREAT < 1424538011 714290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrifying. < 1424538012 784960 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a silver mirror < 1424538012 932419 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't solve the rubiks cube :( < 1424538020 198 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit harder to solve than the ordinary cube, < 1424538027 820127 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to solve it for a long time but I didn't figure it out < 1424538053 920889 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who have solved it: did you look up a guide or get told what to do or figure it out youreslf? < 1424538058 522341 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wish I had had it when I was in high school, because it's possible to solve it without looking, so I could have solved it under the desk during a class while pretending to listen to the teacher < 1424538076 986168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: looked up guides, and figured out a few changes myself < 1424538101 433220 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't practiced much so I still solve it somewhat slowly (and ever more slowly as I forget) < 1424538109 162250 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: I looked up guides, forgot half of them, discovered a few combinations myself, learned some from other people ... and by now I know enough to be able to solve it from scratch /in principle/. < 1424538127 908153 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I could write a comupter program to solve it < 1424538138 560997 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm using the third method to solve it so far < 1424538146 870453 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I first learnt a very bad method < 1424538149 523302 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Meaning I know enough theory to solve pretty arbitrary permutation puzzles.) < 1424538170 616386 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, there's a channel for the rubik's cube on, um, probably freenode, let me check < 1424538182 374104 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, freenode < 1424538185 714224 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called #rubik < 1424538193 69052 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I tried to join the twistypuzzles forum < 1424538199 715104 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem kinda weird :/ < 1424538202 472740 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt like it < 1424538204 481446 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or, failing that, using GAP to do it for me) < 1424538210 128906 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :they dont like new members < 1424538368 928497 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424538378 234661 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if i can solve the rubiks cube if i keep trying < 1424538390 432864 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, the closer you get to solved.. the less freedom you have to solve it < 1424538410 642496 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unless it magically falls into place near the end you might as well scramble it randomly and start again < 1424538420 738277 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: the trick is to find combinations that affect as few cubes as possible. < 1424538452 912200 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4217732/Rubiks-Cube-finally-solved-after-26-years-by-avid-fan.html < 1424538471 647862 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conjugates and commutators work pretty well. < 1424538481 291159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice news < 1424538487 629112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long-suffering wife Jean, 47, said the cube has frequently put a strain on their marriage, causing blazing rows between the pair. < 1424538491 338774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this the onion < 1424538498 731748 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is reality :) < 1424538526 347426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ray Hodgkin of the governing body for Rubik's Cube competitions, the World Cube Association (WCA), said: "I think this is definitely the longest it has ever taken someone to complete a Cube. < 1424538574 586017 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs Pinky and Cubist's Thumb < 1424538604 119292 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ziyeqrqrokvmipvm QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1424538645 361646 :cpressey!~cpressey@host86-187-206-19.range86-187.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424538656 565013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of inspiring to me that I just have to achieve something really, really slowly to get on the news < 1424538750 629415 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca QUIT :Quit: TAGGED CHICKEN < 1424538841 801694 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah. there's a joke about that but it doesn't work so well in English: an says he's achieved a record because he's completed a jigsaw puzzle in three years, when its packaging says [for ages] over six years < 1424538854 383927 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wonder if we could do this with a 20 pieces puzzle (with a staggering number of 2675004047229796708138352640000 possibilities (20! placements * 4^20 orientations)) < 1424538869 688378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :insert 420 joke < 1424538958 925657 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's more possibilities than the Rubik's cube has.) < 1424539097 729857 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, if you like permutation puzzles in general, I recommend http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/ < 1424539123 297494 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like oscars channel on youtube < 1424539158 152077 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/user/OskarPuzzle/videos < 1424539751 605751 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another haskell: so... i want to make read for an enum based on a simple char matching. any examples that is not this oversized tree thingie? i really just need to do "x" -> Foo < 1424539800 15403 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :case str of "x" -> Foo ? < 1424539870 821757 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my problem is the Read class < 1424539885 678618 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :well just call this something else than read < 1424539888 472141 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i understand you cannot just simply write a read function < 1424539892 994739 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay :( < 1424539894 75746 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that, but dont < 1424540214 909620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424540277 778124 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1424541180 901798 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424541241 342989 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is it superexponential < 1424541254 873735 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's not, we should invent one where it is, because that's a very entertaining thought < 1424541381 304872 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1424541408 393362 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424541697 948635 :not^v!~notnot^v@198.109.114.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1424542075 840062 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1424542404 708782 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice puzzles < 1424542531 746921 :ThisFalseReality!~ThisFalse@207.255.163.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424542551 438556 :ThisFalseReality!~ThisFalse@207.255.163.66 PART :#esoteric < 1424542735 408469 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, ThisFalseReality, this channel is not what you thought < 1424542739 653214 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1424542764 231703 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to download all (or a years' worth of logs) in a tarball or eqv? < 1424542771 841621 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all logs < 1424542791 591276 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to grep them for a language name I proposed years ago < 1424542812 616028 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember the full name and I doubt any web search will let me search by part of name or regexp < 1424542833 924530 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to crawl codu or tunes but, if i have to, i guess i can < 1424543005 959849 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Apache/2.2.22 (Debian) PHP/5.4.36-0+deb7u3 mod_ssl/2.2.22 OpenSSL/1.0.1e Server at tunes.org Port 80" < 1424543094 452567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1424543095 636580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :say !logs < 1424543098 798862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'll get instructions in /notice < 1424543105 656794 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thanks < 1424543123 966216 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever runs tunes.org: you might want to think about upgrading your openssl < 1424543127 783665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just ask me < 1424543139 684883 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1424543170 985865 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good, i like resync < 1424543173 720165 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rsync < 1424543195 369298 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424543216 444011 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :glogbot lies < 1424543283 297393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1424543319 546944 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no rsync server on codu.org it seems < 1424543328 73540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1424543330 913387 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424543332 953196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have the logs up to 2014-09 < 1424543338 892533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get them to you if you want < 1424543373 70762 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be great. < 1424543387 148950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one minute < 1424543542 752075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which I mean, three and a half minutes, approximately < 1424543604 398641 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done crazy things like wget -c http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2015-02-{1,2,3}{0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}{-raw,}.txt ever since the rsync server was disabled < 1424543622 518089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just keep my own logs < 1424543629 851301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for pre-2012ish stuff the codu ones are nice < 1424544849 911583 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :just drank a potion of mut, and got three beneficial mutations. the RNG will punish me hard an soon... < 1424545069 633445 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424545365 250639 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1424545992 674979 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca QUIT :Quit: BLOCK CHICKEN < 1424546184 600040 :devdean!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424546305 900319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1424546317 272415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424546770 267957 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424546834 515878 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it < 1424546835 556954 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-09-14.txt:01:15:57: olsner: you should do that. and you should name it "Jonguilexiphonaugh" < 1424546874 63645 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't started on that project yet :) < 1424546902 886499 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, I have created the git repo for it, but it is still empty < 1424546922 844789 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424546929 865941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1424546933 504119 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1424546935 655151 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1424547412 327246 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a korean musical instrument thing < 1424547461 910439 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: if you're still using it, then i won't be tempted to borrow it back, but it was really nice to recall just what it was < 1424547474 293850 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :take your time, btw < 1424547482 20359 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang moves slowly < 1424547511 476208 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have ideas and sketches that linger in a textfile in a repo that sometimes stay there for years before i do anything with them < 1424547512 820699 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eslowang < 1424547519 429615 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1424547537 423445 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you have a use for the name that might actually materialize, feel free to take it back :) < 1424547572 337718 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i discovered that simply grepping the logs for 'good name' reveals a treasure trove, so there's no shortage < 1424547637 610480 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also have a bunch of names in the aforementioned textfile, and a bunch of chronically incomplete ideas, and so forth < 1424547723 152136 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly tempted to write up this kolmogorov-ais523-counterexample-thing, but i guess i already named it EXP[L]BLARGL anyway < 1424547725 280404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely have trouble naming esolangs < 1424547758 721320 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1424547760 621711 :arjanb!8259ab0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.171.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424547769 965313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi cpressey < 1424547774 402483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just look at the deleted page list < 1424547776 702807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1424547781 352357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entertaining titles were mostly from a few years ago < 1424547785 108780 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea too < 1424547814 919121 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for http://esolangs.org/wiki/I_rarely_have_trouble_naming_esolangs but finds nothing
< 1424547843 883539 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we seem to have blown some large holes in your "write byte #n in O(1) time" idea, btw. sorry. < 1424547857 551159 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it's entirely possibly i don't understand exactly what your approach is, too < 1424547869 260881 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possible < 1424547880 269395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the idea was unfinished, so I'm not surprised that there are problems with it < 1424548596 812954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1424548601 362740 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424548667 435936 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1424548965 21446 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: do you often have trouble finding esolangs? < 1424549023 880266 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koen_: Not really. < 1424549042 908118 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.127.254 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1424549047 968428 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for instance I find brainfuck derivatives all the time" < 1424549049 277019 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koen_: As a rule it only happens if I make up a name. < 1424549055 764944 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1424549124 914975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, there are too many brainfuck derivatives < 1424549151 966900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are always too many bad BF derivatives < 1424549155 480748 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1424549159 886813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are occasional good BF derivatives, but that's the exception rather than teh rule < 1424549160 373627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any underload variants yet, or unlambda variants, or Chef variants? < 1424549171 994398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :underlambda's arguably an underload variant < 1424549173 817135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't finished < 1424549253 468164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, not arguably, underload-minus-S was my starting point for it < 1424549306 883600 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1424549423 484477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424549432 397720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424549871 307030 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424550534 529837 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, does anyone here have an ACM subscription, and if so, would you be willing to download a recent article and tell me if you think it is satirical or not? < 1424550617 299716 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2015/2/182650-in-defense-of-soundiness/abstract < 1424550618 765618 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw < 1424550636 909023 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is a joke, the abstract is quite deadpan < 1424550653 571533 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's not a joke, i'm slightly terrified that static analysis has come to this < 1424550925 840184 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: downloaded, grab it quickly from http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/a.pdf < 1424550993 162199 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for lending me your copy. i'll return it forthwith < 1424550994 579427 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1424551042 779945 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought soundness would be the other way around, e.g. completely sound = excluding all impossible executions, while not saying anything about the possible ones < 1424551228 340477 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an "everything is fine because I don't know that any part of your program will execute" analysis would be completely sound, but lacking in completeness? < 1424551357 716544 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe it just depends on whether you're proving that a program has problems, or that it does not < 1424551464 557080 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without reading the article... program analysis is hard, which means that sound tools will produce lots of false positives, which means that programmers will be discouraged from using the tools. < 1424551566 29164 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1424551580 485780 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Anyway, "soundness" tends to be defined from the perspective of positive answers. So a tool is sound if, when it finds not problems, the program is correct. < 1424551631 920374 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1424551678 717505 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually that should extend to definitive answers. But that leaves a lot of cases where all a tool can say is "I don't know, but this piece of code looks suspicious." < 1424551684 915419 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's far more the adding of -y to a piece of mathematical terminology that freaks me out < 1424551724 925546 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we analyze models of programs, not programs themselves (although they are far closer to each other than, say, bridges and structural engineering calcs) < 1424551738 732307 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should have a look after all < 1424552010 945146 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eval" is a nice example. Either you flag every program containing eval as dangerously wrong, or you trust the programmer. < 1424552273 474965 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Soundy is the new sound", well, eww. < 1424552304 759959 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"our analyzer is sound for Language-{eval}", is it so hard to just say that? < 1424552325 183048 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywa, appears to not be a joke < 1424552351 484799 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm more upset about the silly name ("soundy") than about the concept as such. < 1424552413 521609 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :my impression is that these static analysis tools make no attempt to be sound like that - they are very concerned about not having false positives, not concerned with being able to find all problems < 1424552436 567400 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :false positives ARE a pain, but < 1424552446 800784 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I believe it's all about avoiding false positives. < 1424552574 300190 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also disagree with the article where it says that we know how to model features like "eval" in principle. I don't think we can say much beyond "anything may happen", which for an analysis tool is tantamount to throwing in the towel. "Loss of precision" is just a technical phrase describing this phenomenon.) < 1424552585 88002 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, this is not *as* bad an article as I have seen in the ACM in the past < 1424552689 545570 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1424552722 788083 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :("eval" is extreme of course. I'm a bit surprised that tools would treat it as doing nothing. For setjmp/longjmp, I guess the excuse is that people (hopefully!) only use it for exceptions, and in the case of casts, that programmers have been trained to think long and hard about them. I don't know about Java's reflection.) < 1424552813 125873 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval("literal code") is obviously easy; eval(random_string()) is obviously impossible; I imagine there are a few cases (like eval("temp %s late" % foo)) where you could pick it apart; but it's probably not used frequently enough to justify it < 1424552814 969088 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh and of course the performance measure for these tools is "found NNN real bugs with N false positives" rather than "missed MMM bugs". < 1424552919 986271 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugs me to pieces when i see Python code like getattr(a, 'thing_' + b) < 1424552952 241874 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you've given up hope of ever running a static analyzer on it < 1424552965 612917 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I see a.thing_foo in code, I expect to be able to grep for thing_foo < 1424552979 906239 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have it, like, you know... show where it is defined < 1424552999 141021 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or used, rather < 1424553025 887568 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's awful. < 1424553053 855907 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eval lite" < 1424553126 6981 :devdean!~Steven@c-73-11-142-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PART :#esoteric < 1424553226 425482 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 NICK :TieSleep < 1424553478 582283 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as I understand it, Java reflection is a bit like that - here's a string, get me the method with that name < 1424553612 932331 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or a class. < 1424553646 688616 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you want to go wild, you can implement your own ClassLoader and generate bytecode on the fly. < 1424553762 493103 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you know that when it's possible, it's also done. (The keyword here is "bytecode enhancer".) < 1424553791 198727 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dim memories of using one of those, once < 1424553796 17355 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in school < 1424553841 768978 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another problem with Java is, things often hide behind interfaces, which are instantiated by frameworks like Spring, which means you get to browse XML files (joy!) to find what classes are actually used to implement them. < 1424553873 585249 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to stay far away from that stuff. < 1424553924 572591 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_injection < 1424554032 384069 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and this discussion reminded me of https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition < 1424554044 854168 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :java has some esotericness that could not happen intentionally < 1424554095 92731 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because how could anybody make the code modular and reusable without a FizzBuzzSolutionStrategyFactory! < 1424554105 361484 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1424554159 735951 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1424554448 837669 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424554467 507435 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1424554811 574609 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION makes his first edit to the esowiki in, pfff, years
< 1424554950 543666 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1424555191 415626 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1424555290 279294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it didn't get announced in #esoteric, most wiki edits do < 1424555312 186690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it showed up on RSS though < 1424555316 816116 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :minor edit < 1424555324 602467 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know there was an editbot < 1424555326 793984 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't seen it < 1424555474 36859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is normally, but I suspect it's down right now < 1424555540 726428 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's down < 1424555575 75810 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is on the vacation with fungot? < 1424555913 293778 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not like that 'cabal update' gives you no progress bar < 1424555948 852713 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even a spinny < 1424556002 14651 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should be carping about that in #haskell and not here, apologies < 1424556063 631050 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has caved in and is going to try writing something in Agda
< 1424556076 978703 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"try" being the operative word there < 1424556133 538597 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do or do not! < 1424556229 803346 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t try < 1424556230 619733 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a) < 1424556237 326980 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there is try < 1424556358 376074 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rimshot* < 1424556407 792790 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches seven zillion haskell libraries build
< 1424557094 628344 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches cpressey exaggerate.
< 1424557139 360451 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is building ghc on a ramdisk out of sheer boredom.
< 1424557212 651245 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Agda is a function that maps cabal install to an electric heater < 1424558136 656726 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1424558329 658889 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1424558401 236848 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1424558677 888071 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ah! but at least it is a *total* function that maps cabal install to an electric heater < 1424558700 145200 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm, it errored while I was writing an article < 1424558701 116929 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/EXPBLARGL < 1424558899 77070 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, I dunno ais523 , that might actually be relevant to you < 1424558957 775322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1424558959 2552 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think all brainfuck programs are valid Underload programs and vice versa. < 1424558965 602718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1424558972 699385 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both have very unrestrictive grammars) < 1424558992 722984 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: if you like, I can clarify that < 1424559001 84688 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although an Underload program beginning with ++[>+++++<-] would be pretty useless < 1424559018 121636 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I mean, it's like the least important thing with the language < 1424559042 583856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to make a BF/Underload polyglot < 1424559043 874184 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently [] are reserved in Underload, so that's one thing < 1424559049 122191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using the ()! convention < 1424559055 815008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ignoring the reserved characters because everyone else does < 1424559089 270610 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they're required to be balanced, but brainfuck also has that restriction < 1424559104 881984 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although "(" is a valid brainfuck program but not valid Underload... < 1424559115 802205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because Overload uses [] for pointers < 1424559135 567658 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, assume that if it contains only +-><[]., it's brainfuck, else it's Underload < 1424559157 832164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Underload is a derivative of a vaporware language, how's that for weird things to be derivatives of?) < 1424559171 873333 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, thus preventing the brainfuck from having any comments? < 1424559172 969674 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may exclude some Underload programs, force them to be interpreted as brainfuck -- I don't care, it matters not < 1424559181 722805 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes. < 1424559193 742248 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have (or had) an Ook! derivative somewhere < 1424559196 784791 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, these are not really meant to be generated by hand < 1424559207 810939 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is essentially the target language of a TM-compiler < 1424559236 494363 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sounds weird but is actually a central thing in computability, innit < 1424559302 455605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think one shortcoming of EXPLBARGL is that it also needs exptime to /run/ < 1424559320 159648 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ < 1424559337 129018 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, dropped my keyboard < 1424559447 433108 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you saw shortcoming, I say AWESOME < 1424559451 383345 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*say < 1424559483 831495 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my quips would have so much better delivery if I didn't typo so much < 1424559510 984892 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :That worked even with the typo, I think < 1424559599 40251 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, maybe < 1424559660 528650 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably very difficult to find a way to make a mapping that is hard to compute, while letting the target language itself be easy to interpret < 1424559665 974132 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not possible < 1424559679 657163 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly beyond my current reasoning capacity < 1424560072 711157 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, a much simpler way to ensure it's outside of P would be to use int-e 's trick but replace "fibonacci" with "ackermann" < 1424560076 373010 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, my god < 1424560079 379846 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of ones < 1424560134 800381 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're using the ackermann function, you mayswell have it in a sensible base < 1424560145 567342 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(A(5,5)) is still huge < 1424560186 959323 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1424560201 60361 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it violate's Minsky's Maxim if you use ack < 1424560217 936411 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(said maxim being the mapping should be at most PR) < 1424560240 691667 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :PR? < 1424560296 411322 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, primitive recursive < 1424560364 454875 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-19-238.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1424560562 839528 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes. although, I think that was more or less an offhand remark he made, since he was considering rather more efficient mappings, and not pathological cases like this. < 1424560604 19879 :cpressey!~cpressey@31.55.85.108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's difficult for me to say, "well, the mapping is total and terminating, but it's not primitive recursive, so the language isn't turing complete" < 1424561898 656557 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424562513 111202 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Because of you, "hth" has entered my general vocabulary. I am not happy about this circumstance. < 1424562513 257893 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1424562793 518061 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know whether to read it "hopes that helps" or "happy to help" < 1424562815 661658 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1424562823 786118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the meaning is more along the lines of "this sentence is slightly informative, but mostly trolling" < 1424562828 429995 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koen_, I've always read it as "Hope this helps" < 1424562843 365287 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hth < 1424562853 720627 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mapoles HackEgo
< 1424562859 750721 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. < 1424562900 575038 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mapoling < 1424562902 127838 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapoling? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1424562967 521128 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.default.hacksoc.uk0.bigv.io PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koen_, I've always assumed that to mapole something is to hit them with a maypole < 1424563003 956228 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been assuming that for the past two minutes too < 1424563006 326798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's overestimating the informativity in my expeirence :p < 1424563008 104689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is that a word) < 1424563027 720083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, "expeirence" is not a word hth < 1424563032 671066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*experience < 1424563033 86811 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mapole < 1424563035 903174 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :elliott > 1424563036 69785 NAMES :#esoteric < 1424563037 729434 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. < 1424563038 949590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/kick ais523 trolling < 1424563040 289784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott MODE #esoteric -o :elliott > 1424563040 315749 NAMES :#esoteric < 1424563056 299215 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koen_: Khelloen_! long time no see! < 1424563076 754384 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable184.4-177-173.mc.videotron.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: tanelle. the mapole is good all year long. it's more than a maypole! < 1424563080 135766 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boyly!