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00:06:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EXPBLARGL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42014&oldid=42006 * Chris Pressey * (+1846) Fix EXPBLARGL (hopefully) and add history section
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00:20:05 * oerjan hopes boily is referring to what he thinks and not the file transfer protocol
00:20:16 <oerjan> and i didn't even answer the poll
00:24:14 <boily> I didn't even the poll answer too. and yes I was mentioning the FTP, not FTP.
00:24:59 <lambdabot> CYUL 240000Z 24008KT 15SM FEW240 M21/M29 A3034 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP277
00:25:35 <elliott> Data.List is going to be a real mess.
00:26:06 <boily> and? we've got the AMP, the FTP, Stackage with LTS. we live in good times!
00:26:23 <oerjan> (good acronymical times)
00:27:19 <oerjan> you may think so, good times ???
00:27:26 <elliott> haskell is so ugly from a distance :p
00:28:09 <boily> You Meant To Say Good TLA Times.
00:29:21 <oerjan> a bucket of flowers, that's the best gift
00:29:37 * boily twitches “/ɛ/ is not /e/!”
00:30:13 <oerjan> wait which one of those is /ɛ/
00:30:33 <oerjan> i'm not sure our french class even taught that properly
00:30:48 <boily> /ɛ/, commonly written è or ê, as in père, fête...
00:31:08 <oerjan> yes, but are you saying the -ET in BOUQUET is pronounced that way?
00:31:52 <boily> but then, word end /ɛ/ and /e/ has mostly merged together in France French, resulting in endless grammatical errors.
00:32:01 <oerjan> technically i should have noticed that three minutes ago when i googled bouquet
00:32:16 <oerjan> although i was only looking to check the spelling
00:32:18 <boily> (much confusion going on between the future and conditional, e.g. «j'aurai» and «j'aurais»)
00:32:50 <boily> Jafellot. good Japanese example.
00:34:53 <oerjan> boily: 's ok our class never got beyond the simplest past tense anyway
00:35:24 <boily> the joys of irregular verbs ^^
00:36:36 <oerjan> which confusingly is the _opposite_ of what french calls passé simple
00:37:26 <boily> nobody (except poets) use the passé simple anymore, not even books. the third person plural passé simple lingered last, but went extinct.
00:38:11 <boily> it's all passé composé, imparfait, plus-que-parfait, and some weird subjunctive mood if you're feeling fancy.
00:40:01 <oerjan> wikipedia says the opposite
00:40:18 <oerjan> "Many students of French are surprised to find that even books for elementary-aged French children are written using the passé simple, even though it is only taught to learners of French in advanced classes."
00:41:07 <boily> “In modern spoken French, the passé simple has practically disappeared.”
00:41:46 <boily> “... which are rarely if ever used in contemporary French, even in writing.”
00:42:05 <oerjan> that's about the plurals
00:43:22 <boily> the French version has «À l'écrit, en revanche, le passé simple reste extrêmement vivant et productif aux troisièmes personnes du singulier et du pluriel.»
00:43:26 <boily> I stand corrected.
00:43:54 <boily> dulla: a French verb conjugation.
00:44:49 <boily> oerjan: so both versions agree that it almost completely disappeared from oral communication, but it remains commonly written.
00:45:01 <boily> (except for regional variations.)
00:47:29 <boily> it remains the case that I need references when I use it. for me it's all imparfait and passé composé.
00:48:00 <boily> otoc, are there any weird Norwegian conjugation variations?
00:48:07 <boily> (otoc: on the other continent)
00:49:06 <oerjan> i think the subjunctive counts as extremely archaic
00:49:56 <oerjan> there's only the present subjunctive, which is identical to the infinitive, and the only use i can think of on the spot is "leve kongen" ((long) live the king)
00:50:44 <boily> same here. «Vive le Roi».
00:50:51 <oerjan> other than that, norwegian verb forms are basically the same as english minus progressive and person/number
00:52:09 <oerjan> in some dialects, the past participle may get inflected for gender when _not_ used with the verb "ha"
00:52:27 <oerjan> (where "some dialects" includes nynorsk)
00:54:40 <oerjan> norwegian verbs aren't very complicated. although we also have irregular/strong verbs like synge/sang/sunget
00:55:43 <oerjan> hm actually the suffixes for "regular" verb pasts are more complicated than in english.
00:56:33 <oerjan> -et, -dde, -te are some possibilities.
00:57:40 <oerjan> mostly guessable from phonology, though.
00:58:35 <boily> we should unify French and Norwegian verbs together. je mangedde.
00:59:13 <oerjan> basically -dde is used for verbs with a vowel-ending stem
00:59:54 <oerjan> and -te is used otherwise unless the result would be hard to pronounce, in which case you use -et.
01:00:52 <oerjan> this is bokmål, nynorsk has -a, -dde, -te/-de or thereabouts
01:01:33 <oerjan> with -a occasionally being used in "radical" bokmål.
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01:05:00 <oerjan> there's a kind of continuum from conservative "riksmål" through ordinary bokmål, via the mostly abandoned "samnorsk" which was an attempt to merge all the writing forms, via normal nynorsk and then to conservative "høgnorsk"
01:06:15 <oerjan> the radical bokmål is somewhere between bokmål and samnorsk, and it's stereotypically connected to 70s communists i think.
01:06:33 * boily sips some scotch, nods, and lightly grunts in approval while he tries to hide the vacant look in his eyes
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01:06:57 * oerjan approves of the scotch
01:07:09 <boily> (no, I'm not scared by the plural multiplicity of Norwegian varieties. not at all.)
01:07:25 <boily> Laphroaig Quarter Cask, straight with a glass of water.
01:07:56 <oerjan> _most_ people write bokmål, which has slipped gradually back toward the conservative after the samnorsk fiasco ended. i think.
01:08:17 <oerjan> i am not very up to date to the developments in the last 20 years or so.
01:08:39 <oerjan> i hear in oslo they generally speak "kebabnorsk" these days, because of all the immigrants.
01:10:53 <oerjan> with some luck the labor party may get a muslim vice leader this year
01:11:09 <oerjan> she did well as a government minister
01:12:53 <oerjan> (she's of course of the very liberal kind)
01:14:11 * oerjan tries to get back to ghc news
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01:58:58 <boily> elliott: I think I'm going to like lignification potions. trees hit hard!
01:59:31 <elliott> they also can't move right
01:59:41 <elliott> go chei for synergy with potion of tree
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02:13:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:About]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42015&oldid=30624 * 189.78.226.185 * (+114) limes?
02:14:12 <ais523> ooh, someone asked about the limes again
02:16:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:About]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42016&oldid=42015 * Ais523 * (+320) my memory of the limes
02:16:49 <boily> ais523: what limes?
02:17:17 <ais523> is a picture of some limes
02:17:23 * boily suddenly feels very stupid.
02:20:08 <oerjan> limes computandi esoterici
02:21:00 <oerjan> limes computandus esotericus
02:22:23 <boily> the urge to do something similar to Resplicate intensifies.
02:22:34 <boily> quintopia: speaking of Resplicate, quinthellopia!
02:29:50 <oerjan> i think it may be the simplest queue-that-contains-both-data-and-program language that i've seen proved TC yet
02:30:30 <oerjan> unlike fueue, it doesn't contain arbitrarily complicated elements.
02:30:56 <oerjan> however, it still needs arbitrarily large numbers in its elements
02:31:47 <oerjan> i don't think i've seen yet a TC queue language in which there is a strict boundary to how much data a single command can affect
02:34:26 <oerjan> i suppose you could _probably_ make something that emulated a chosen CA with the ability to insert new cells
02:37:57 <boily> what is the probable minimum limit on the kinds of cells in a variable width CA that would make it "interesting" and/or TC?
02:38:34 <oerjan> "variable width" is like not CA by definition
02:39:21 <boily> that's the thing :/
02:40:07 <oerjan> i am thinking in terms of "enough power to simulate a TM" here
02:40:23 <boily> (please don't tell me it's a kind of lime.)
02:40:26 <oerjan> which means you need only CA things + the ability to extend the type
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02:41:52 <boily> oh. right. tdh. >_>'...
02:42:01 <oerjan> i am still not sure that rule 110 with all but finitely many cells 0 isn't enough
02:42:25 <oerjan> because it can grow leftwards just fine
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02:43:12 <oerjan> and at least one glider gun is known
02:44:17 <boily> the game of life is very much well très TC.
02:44:57 <oerjan> ...although i wonder if anyone has found a way to make it "halt"
02:45:19 <oerjan> as in, like, delete itself
02:45:53 <oerjan> the game of life is, however, 2d, which is rather impractical to use as target for a queue emulation.
02:47:03 <boily> hmm... perhaps some puffer train? I haven't seen, nor heard of any patterns outside of trivial ones that purposefully delete themselves.
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02:47:23 <boily> (trivial encompassing only very small about-three-live-cells patterns.)
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02:48:24 <oerjan> i assume you could maybe run that universal constructor thing in reverse
02:48:45 <oerjan> except you'd have to be clever to make it work on itself...
02:49:03 <ais523> oerjan: you could create some glider reflectors at huge distance
02:49:10 <ais523> that get destroyed upon reflecting a glider
02:49:17 <ais523> then you just need a glider desynthesis that works on your TM pattern
02:49:46 <oerjan> yeah it doesn't sound impossible
02:49:53 <boily> glider desynthesase!
02:51:31 <oerjan> hm i wonder if von neumann's original self-replicating CA was inspired by knowledge about dna and stuff, or if he just considered it the obvious way to do it
02:54:03 <oerjan> "This insight is all the more remarkable because it preceded the discovery of the structure of the DNA molecule by Watson and Crick, though it followed the Avery-MacLeod-McCarty experiment which identified DNA as the molecular carrier of genetic information in living organisms."
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09:21:08 <myname> is there any way to resolve cyclic dependencies in cabal?
09:21:32 <myname> i fear it will lead to an extra module ...
09:22:05 <oerjan> what does cabal have to do with it?
09:23:27 <oerjan> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/separate-compilation.html#mutual-recursion
09:23:52 <oerjan> you do, in fact, need an extra file.
09:25:43 <oerjan> i think recommended practice is to reorganize your modules instead whenever possible
09:27:02 <myname> yeah, i think i will do that
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09:28:52 <myname> i am currently rewriting older stuff of myself to make stuff more exchangeable
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10:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Esowiki201529A * moved [[JSFuck]] to [[Javascript fuck]]
10:01:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Esowiki201529A * moved [[Javascript fuck]] to [[JSFuck]] over redirect
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10:44:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:X1]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42021 * Esowiki201529A * (+264) "wiki cyclic tag" test.
10:53:08 <gamemanj> ...what the... what is that, exactly...?
10:54:46 <gamemanj> Judging by the name, I'm guessing something to do with cyclic tags....Are you trying to use the wiki as a esoteric programming language???
10:55:51 <b_jonas> gamemanj: it's an implementation of cyclic tag with mediawiki templates I think
11:00:29 <b_jonas> gamemanj: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
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11:24:56 <gamemanj> I wonder why BytePusher is so unpopular?
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13:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MICE]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42022&oldid=40943 * Ais523 * (-195) fix the spec to not trigger the spam filter; most of our spambots don't know how newlines work, apparently this page didn't either
13:03:34 <vanila> haha that edit summary :P
13:04:03 <ais523> caught that one looking over past spam filter hits
13:04:19 <ais523> although the last person to trigger it is oerjan, who (being an admin) was able to override it
13:05:24 <vanila> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27
13:05:28 <vanila> this sounds silly and not esoteric
13:06:06 <ais523> also I'm not sure if the statement made there is even correct
13:07:13 <ais523> I mean, Java-minus-Object is still TC
13:07:21 <ais523> but I don't think you can compile Java into it directly
13:07:36 <ais523> because heterogeneous lists would no longer be implementable
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13:11:36 <vanila> ais523, do you want to look at my quine in minikanren (its a schemey prolog)?
13:12:07 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/121083
13:12:36 <vanila> it's so long, I wonder if it can be shorter
13:12:53 <vanila> there's an online interpreter if you want to try it
13:12:58 <vanila> although you can probably guess what it outputs
13:14:27 <ais523> someone on some mailing list used to have a signature along the lines of "I lost the source code to all my quines! How will I recover it from the binaries?"
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14:04:00 <tromp_> too verbose. how about just: "can someone help me disassemble these quines?"
14:10:40 <ais523> e.g. via using a compiler?
14:15:00 <int-e> . o O ( Unfortunately I also lost the Turing Machine that could run those binaries them. )
14:18:02 <ais523> how do you create a turing machine quine anyway?
14:19:11 <tromp_> by making a programming language resembling TMs. e.g. bf
14:25:06 <Taneb> ais523, I want to actually demonstrate a StackFlow MtG game at some point
14:25:11 <Taneb> What cards will I need?
14:25:23 <ais523> Taneb: b_jonas has some concerns about the construction
14:25:39 <ais523> but basically, it's just the cards mentioned in the article, plus a bunch of copy effects
14:25:44 <ais523> plus some way to loop your library
14:26:01 <ais523> also, if you plan to do this competitively, you'll need some way to stop your opponent winning until you can set the situation up
14:26:33 <ais523> there's a combo deck around somewhere which needs a lot of luck, but gives you perfect control of the gamestate if you're lucky enough that the combo gets set off
14:26:43 <ais523> wouldn't be 100% impossible that you could pull it off in a tournament
14:27:00 <Taneb> One concern a friend of mine who knows Magic better than I do raised was table space, if you need a large number of creatures
14:27:19 <ais523> you do need a large number of creatures
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14:28:06 <ais523> anyway, the critical cards to the combo are: Noxious Ghoul; Dralnu's Crusade; Cathar's Crusade
14:28:27 <ais523> plus you need a text-changing effect, Artificial Evolution is the one mentioned in the article, but you could swap it out with anything that changes creature types
14:28:44 <ais523> finally, you need Engineered Plague or an equivalent
14:28:58 <ais523> oh, and Rotlung Reanimator
14:29:04 <ais523> I think that's it for the cards that don't have easy substitutes
14:29:33 <Taneb> I went through the construction listed on the wiki and I have a list of needed cards, but I don't know a thing about quantities or anything I am afraid
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14:30:02 <ais523> basically you need hundreds of copies of most of the cards; you can only run 4 in a deck
14:30:08 <ais523> so what you do is run a huge number of copy effects
14:30:12 <ais523> rite of replication is a good one
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14:30:18 <ais523> then you need to run library loop effects too
14:30:23 <ais523> so that you don't run out of cards
14:30:29 <ais523> two copies of elixir of immortality will do for that
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14:31:45 <ais523> Taneb: so basically what you actually need, if you have infinite time to set up
14:32:01 <ais523> is all the cards listed on the wiki, plus rite of replication, plus two copies of elixir of immortality
14:32:11 <ais523> actually I think you can make do with one?
14:32:18 <ais523> also, plus enough land to get this started
14:32:33 <ais523> I recommend running an infinite mana combo too
14:32:44 <ais523> (my favourite is izzet guildmage + three copies of rite of flame, but there are tons)
14:33:54 <ais523> anyway, bear in mind that that construction will take a long, long time to set up
14:34:11 <ais523> I'd guess it'd be on the order of 1000 creature and enchantment tokens just to start the thing off
14:34:44 <ais523> anyway, b_jonas is right in that the triggers for "pop" actions can stack in the wrong order
14:35:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:StackFlow]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42023&oldid=41663 * Ais523 * (+201) suggestions for a fix?
14:38:55 <Taneb> I only started playing Magic a couple of months ago - partially because I wanted to understand this construction - and I am not very good at it yet
14:39:24 <ais523> that's a really bad reason to start Magic
14:39:49 <Taneb> Also because a few of my friends play it often and it seemed fun
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14:40:31 <ais523> it's fun-ish but terrible value for money
14:40:48 <Taneb> I have thus far avoided spending any money on it
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14:41:33 <ais523> oh, in that case, continue as you are
14:41:41 <Taneb> I was going to go to a prerelease but I felt ill/anxious
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14:55:06 <b_jonas> wait, this construction has actually inspired you to start playing Magic? then esolangs are totally WORTH and have good unintended side effects!
14:55:26 <b_jonas> "Also because a few of my friends play it often and it seemed fun" -- aww, why do you have to ruin the illusion
14:56:03 <Taneb> b_jonas, it largely seemed fun because "Wow, this card game is TURING COMPLETE? This is exactly the sort of ridiculousness that I think I like!"
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15:06:45 <dulla> magic? the deck shuffling one?
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16:55:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42024&oldid=42013 * Ypnypn * (+3222)
16:57:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42025&oldid=42024 * Ypnypn * (+34)
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17:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42026&oldid=42025 * Ypnypn * (+2632)
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17:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42027&oldid=42026 * Ypnypn * (+1085)
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18:03:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42028&oldid=42027 * Ypnypn * (+128)
18:04:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42029&oldid=42028 * Ypnypn * (+3)
18:07:21 * oerjan checks awkward fumbles on mezzacotta and notices there have been several new comics since last he checked
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18:10:01 <oerjan> well, there were two, which appeared less than a month after the last one i remember
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18:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42030&oldid=41870 * Oerjan * (-13) /* A colon semicolon */ Name
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18:28:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42031&oldid=41918 * Oerjan * (+495) /* Main table */ Deadfish in A:;
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18:50:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42032&oldid=42031 * Oerjan * (+3511) /* Main table */ Deadfish in Burlesque, Chicken, DL, Forobj, Stackstack, StaPLe, WARP
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18:54:58 <AndoDaan> Cleaning house in case reddit might call, Oerjan? (well, that Hello World website via reddit)
18:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42033&oldid=41947 * Oerjan * (-1) tpyo
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19:02:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42034&oldid=41977 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Proposed Category:Big Five */ fix category link
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19:23:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Onoz]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42035&oldid=42001 * Oerjan * (+55) unsigned
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20:36:39 <b_jonas> hey look, if I pass the right arguments to the compiler, it generates better optimized code
20:36:51 <b_jonas> the hard part is to figure out what the right arguments are
20:37:17 <int-e> --ignore-source-code --use-this-optimized-object-file
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20:39:15 <b_jonas> I still don't understand some of the stuff it does though
20:40:27 <b_jonas> are these pointless register moves really necessary?
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20:41:04 <int-e> b_jonas: there are papers on this with titles like "A Genetic Algorithm approach towards compiler flag selection based on compilation and execution duration."
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20:42:44 <int-e> (Ok, I actually stopped looking after I found the first one. I bet there are more though.)
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21:10:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42036&oldid=42029 * Ypnypn * (+1021)
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22:10:13 <Taneb> I need to get out of my habit of eating business cards...
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22:12:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip/Examples]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42037 * Ypnypn * (+2271) Created page with "==Hello world== "Hello world Self-explanatory, but note that the closing quotation mark is not needed. ==Cat== When compiled, this is expanded to: [M ] Thus, the..."
22:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42038&oldid=42036 * Ypnypn * (+14)
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22:57:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42039&oldid=37852 * 63.232.95.4 * (+46) /* Examples from anarchy golf */ Added FlogScript quine, from http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Quine/milieu_1281794781&flog
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