00:00:50 -!- qlkzy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 00:03:34 -!- chaosagent has quit (Quit: Bye.). 00:10:21 -!- MDude has joined. 00:13:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: IMPRINTED CHICKEN). 00:43:46 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:52:54 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:53:30 -!- Lymia has joined. 00:54:08 -!- skj3gg has joined. 00:58:02 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:59:06 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 00:59:58 So, some notions of a "theory" admit a notion of a "free model" and some of them don't. 01:00:30 Suppose that by "theory" we mean "variety of algebras". I'm pretty sure a variety of algebras always has a free model. 01:00:52 -!- skj3gg has joined. 01:01:22 It's just the collection of all equivalence classes of constant expressions, where two expressions are equivalent if the axioms require them to be equal. 01:02:33 First-order logic doesn't admit a notion of a free model, though. 01:02:48 can anyone here think of a good use for the lda ($*,x) (where * is any 8-bit integer) instruction in 6502 assembler? 01:02:51 You can do the Henkin construction, but the Henkin construction requires making a lot of arbitrary choices. 01:02:59 (But not, conveniently enough, the axiom of choice.) 01:03:25 ais523: well, what does that do? 01:04:04 tswett: it's basically equivalent to *(c[X]) in C, where c is a constant pointer and X is a register; however, the resulting address has to be in the first 256 bytes of memory 01:05:27 -!- chaosagent has joined. 01:05:29 -!- skj3gg has quit (Client Quit). 01:05:36 So c is an immediate value and X is the value in a register? 01:06:00 yep 01:06:21 the problem being that you can't really use this as an array of pointers because you have to put it in a particularly valuable bit of memory 01:06:21 ais523: As far as I remember I have not used that addressing mode 01:06:32 zzo38: neither have I, and I've written some 6502 assembler too 01:06:45 Although if I find it useful I might to do so 01:06:48 (also I'm not surprised you've worked on 6502 asm, although technically your statement doesn't imply that you have) 01:07:17 I don't quite remember all my addressing modes. 01:07:25 I have worked on 6502 asm, and what I have used is several unofficial opcodes, but not that 01:08:14 what did the unofficial opcodes do? 01:08:24 IIRC they're mostly random mixes of intended opcodes 01:08:57 There are many, for example ANC #immediate will act like AND #imm but also copies the high bit to the carry flag. 01:09:47 LAX will load into both A and X register, but the immediate form of this opcode is unstable so I don't use the immediate mode. (6502: Even the bugs have bugs.) 01:10:04 ANC looks like a pretty useful opcode 01:10:11 although presumably it works differently on different 6502s 01:11:03 On different version any unofficial opcode may fail, but it works on an actual 6502. 01:11:32 (However, what I am programming for isn't quite an actual 6502; it is an actual 6502 with a few traces cut so that decimal mode won't work.) 01:12:55 This is what it does on Famicom, and now Famicom VM is defined to do those things (although the purpose of unofficial opcodes wasn't defined before Super Nintendo was released, as far as I understand). 01:13:13 I'm thinking mostly about NES right now, which is quite similar to Famicom 01:13:48 -!- chaosagent has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:13:50 Yes, it is quite similar and the same CPU, APU, and PPU is in use too (except PAL NES) 01:14:10 The SED and CLD therefore, will still affect the decimal flag, but this flag does nothing except that it is visible when the flags are pushed to the stack. 01:15:56 What stuff have you written 6502 codes for? 01:17:17 I was writing for the BBC Micro 01:17:19 just for fun 01:17:25 BBC Micro B, specifically 01:17:28 it had a BASIC interpreter in ROM 01:20:42 -!- qlkzy has joined. 01:21:25 I think I have once worked with an emulator that emulates BBC Micro, although I didn't know much about the features specific to its BASIC interpreter 01:22:46 it also had an assembler in ROM 01:26:03 O, it did? I didn't know that either 01:26:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:15 -!- oren has joined. 01:28:48 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 01:29:04 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 01:30:44 -!- Sketra has joined. 01:30:50 Ya feks 01:32:23 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:32:46 -!- ^v has joined. 01:32:48 ? 01:35:14 its_some_kind_of_elvish_i_cant_read_it.jpg 01:35:36 -!- skj3gg has joined. 01:36:30 hm... what country is .za 01:37:51 Idk 01:38:20 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:03 I searched for "ya feks" and i got some stuff from .za, .su, and .ru 01:39:24 -!- Lymia has joined. 01:40:26 -!- skj3gg has quit (Client Quit). 01:40:27 The national TLDs for Zouth Africa, Sumeria and Ruritania. 01:40:29 ya feks is a more toned down version 01:40:33 Of you fucks 01:41:12 I see... south africa, soviet union, and russia 01:41:51 What country do you live in oren 01:42:20 .ca 01:42:29 Canada 01:42:33 yup 01:42:37 Have fun 01:42:57 Canada is only fun in the winter 01:43:12 What if I just 01:43:20 Burned sanfransico down 01:43:36 It seems very likely someone will do it 01:43:49 uh... san francisco is in America 01:43:55 yes 01:43:58 I know 01:44:16 I never implied I was talking about Canada... 01:44:41 Uh... So why would you burn san francisco donw? 01:45:19 Idk 01:45:24 Its a scum hole 01:45:36 Also that already happened in 1906 01:45:40 See 01:45:43 Flammable 01:45:47 By an earthquake 01:45:52 -!- serika has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:45:59 lol 01:46:05 Even better 01:48:07 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/San_Francisco_in_ruin_edit2.jpg 01:49:24 their fault for building on a fault 01:49:49 this conversation is surprisingly offtopic even for this channel 01:50:14 You know what else is a surprise 01:50:24 unless destroying cities is somehow Turing-complete, and I don't think we can manage that due to only having finitely many cities 01:50:58 No one can arrest me if they are all on fire ais253 01:51:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 01:51:23 seriously, though? can't you find something more appropriate to talk about? 01:51:31 Fine 01:52:01 -!- chaosagent has joined. 01:52:07 I wish irc had some sort of msg delete system but its just really a real time logging system 01:52:28 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523. 01:52:54 Do you want a kitty ais253 01:53:02 I just got like 12 01:53:05 not particularly 01:53:08 k 01:53:44 How was your day then? 01:53:53 (^oωO^)] 01:54:51 I can make faces with this language ㅎ-ㅎ 01:54:55 I slept in, then spent the afternoon thinking about my job, and got some useful advice from #esoteric 01:55:31 ^ㅅ^ that's good 01:55:49 I think IRC doesn't need some kind of msg delete system 01:56:21 Think of how useful that would be though 01:56:37 I went to work with my project group at school, but I didn't do anything 01:56:47 If you ban someone it delete all there messages 01:57:03 No, I disagree 01:57:23 anyone could remember that the message had been said, though 01:57:42 even if you delete all electronic copies, you're not going to delete them from the minds of the recipients 01:57:44 You can, however, parse the logs and filter out any messages of people you don't want (whether because they are banned or for another reason) 01:57:44 I spent the time helping the artists get their files into the repository and reading manga 01:57:51 But memory is useless 01:58:17 They'll forget within days 01:58:49 Seeing a string of insulting text upon a LCD won't be remembered for long my Good sir 01:59:12 for some reason my first thought in reply to that was "I'll have to get a CRT" 01:59:20 I might have the wrong attitude for this conversation… 01:59:28 Well what if I enable logging on my client 01:59:52 I believe in freedom of speech 02:00:03 Right. Freedom of speech 02:00:34 You can say what you want, but you can't stop people from reacting to what you say 02:00:52 unless the reaction is illegal in its own right 02:00:53 I cannot detect attitude over the internet 02:01:29 ais523: I was thinking of verbal reactions, but yeah 02:01:34 well, in my case, assume that I'm intentionally trying to push conversations into the absurd in an attempt to derail them 02:01:55 http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1375919!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/aquaweb19f-3-web.jpg 02:01:57 oren: Well, yes, although you should still be allowed to keep it recorded; other people should be allowed to write comment/complaint on it too though 02:01:59 (at least for offtopic conversations; with ontopic conversations, pushing them into the absurd is normally impossible because they're already there) 02:02:12 What are turing machines 02:02:15 I have a CRT in my basement that we are not allowed to throw out 02:02:33 Sketra: basically it's a computational model 02:02:42 here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_machine 02:02:50 -!- skj3gg has joined. 02:03:01 Sorry but the esolangs wiki is infinitely loading for me 02:03:01 or I guess the Wikipedia article is probably better 02:03:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine 02:03:10 underwater bicycles? 02:03:23 All wiki pages are infinite load 02:03:27 oren: ? 02:03:48 the picture sketra linked to. underwater bicycles 02:03:58 oren its illegal in California to ride your bycicle in a pool 02:04:03 oh right, I'm not used to people following links 02:04:25 I didn't technically follow it. I wgot it 02:04:43 ais253 What would you gain from pushing topic into absurdity its human nature to reply to dumb topics 02:05:01 Why should you want to ride a bicycle underwater anyways? 02:05:15 To avoid getting sweaty? 02:05:23 -!- skj3gg has quit (Client Quit). 02:05:24 Try for a more reasonable approach such as "Lets talk about Programming" would be ofc a better example 02:05:35 zzo38 Twice the exercise 02:05:39 I've found it one way to try to moderate a channel without having to ban anyone 02:05:39 Water drag 02:05:45 another method is to have some ontopic conversations ready 02:05:51 and to start them up with someone you know will join in 02:05:59 but that's hard to do at ~2am UTC 02:06:05 (easier than at ~6am UTC though) 02:06:09 Go to sleep my dear sir 02:06:23 Fix your sleep schedule 02:06:54 It seem like it will be difficult to try to ride a bicycle underwater, but you can try, but nevertheless try to be careful please 02:06:59 오 _ 오 02:07:19 ais523: What timezone are you at though? And, what timezone other people at, too? 02:07:32 zzo38: perhaps an underwater exercise bicycle would make for a better, or at least different, exercise experience 02:07:41 and the country I'm currently living in is currently at UTC+0 02:07:50 its 6:08pm I don't do time zones 02:08:12 I just read the clock you can figure it out yourself 02:08:15 you're at UTC-8 then 02:08:19 I need to Vaccuum 02:08:30 that normally indicates the western edge of the US, although there are other possibilities 02:08:46 The forthmost answer is correct 02:09:10 ais523: Yes, at least it would make a different kind of exercise; it would do that at least. 02:09:42 Zzo38 it would be best to strap them to the bottom and have straps on the peddles 02:09:55 You don't do timezones? 02:10:14 You don't have to 02:10:28 ._. 02:10:34 You could use solar time, but that isn't quite the same use on the clock and on computer etc 02:10:35 I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200 02:10:44 but no DST rules 02:11:02 Why do you need timezones in NetHack? 02:11:02 basically because I thought there might be a potential for DST-related exploits (like there are in second-gen Pokémon games) 02:11:11 because some monsters are more dangerous at night 02:11:27 it probably also affects moon phases, although I'm not sure that it should 02:11:44 I am in -0500 according to date 02:12:07 that most commonly implies eastern US 02:12:11 on my client it lists me as being in 2:15 Pm 11/19/1947 02:12:18 So I guess I'm fine 02:12:26 hmm, that's a weird time 02:12:37 I wonder if it's 32-bit INT_MIN interpreted as a date 02:12:55 no 02:13:00 Internal clock must have goofed 02:13:10 ill fix it later 02:13:35 nope, that's in 1901 02:13:41 $ date -d @-2147483648 02:13:42 Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 GMT 1901 02:14:03 Thats also December 02:14:12 2038 is the max 02:14:19 is it? 02:14:42 I think my client runs off my computers internal clock 02:14:45 yes. in 2038 unix date times willneed to be 64 bit 02:15:19 I may have been messing with time setting ealier and fell asleep before I fixed them 02:15:23 oren: I ran into that problem already 02:15:31 when giving one of the traditional 24-year bans on the wiki 02:15:35 2014 + 24 = 2038 02:15:40 but apparently it got fixed by a wiki upgrade 02:16:08 Why would you ban for 24 years 02:16:20 I'm usually devastated when I'm banned from sites 02:16:28 That's a bit much 02:16:31 A year an hour. 02:16:54 it's not bans for humans 02:16:58 but for spambots 02:17:09 I ran into a spam bot once 02:17:14 Enough to have them banned for one day if they spend it in some kind of time chamber. 02:17:19 They are verg weird 02:17:22 Very* 02:17:37 I used to run into them a lot, but the spam filters and CAPTCHA on the wiki have been holding recently 02:17:49 Also how do spam bots spam on the wiki 02:18:02 same way a human would spam on the wiki: create account, create a page, put spam there 02:18:14 except that the spambots have the huge disadvantage that they haven't figured out newlines yet 02:18:20 which makes them quite easy to automatically detect 02:18:28 What is it 02:18:47 basically, they make a page using entirely
or
as line breaks 02:18:56 rather than two newlines, which is the way most humans do line breaks 02:18:57 lol 02:19:11 Watch out ais523. 02:19:23 MDude: ? 02:19:51 I may be a bot -///- You just never know what humans can make up 02:20:00 Just kidding 02:20:16 Exactly, you could be spying to find out the secret of newlines. 02:20:17 I'm vaccuming 02:20:21 JUST 02:20:23 LIKE 02:20:23 A 02:20:25 ROBOT 02:20:30 why would I spam 02:20:46 I just told you I would be devastated if I got banned 02:20:49 MDude: actually, one of the most damaging things you can do to spammers is to waste their time 02:21:27 because spam has pretty tight margins, especially when humans get involved 02:21:31 What was the most catastrophic thing to happen to esolangs 02:21:39 like server wise 02:21:59 the server's been moved a few times 02:22:07 and the site's been down during server moves 02:22:16 that's it 02:22:23 also, it's not technically the wiki, but as the topic says, fungot is trapped in a house with no internet 02:22:44 -!- skj3gg has joined. 02:22:46 lol 02:22:59 You are funny Ais253 02:23:59 good thing this went from setting people on fire to underwater bycicles to turing machines to spam bot protection 02:26:49 yay 02:26:57 gnight 02:27:05 I'm off to do some deeds 02:27:09 and wills 02:27:38 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 02:31:35 -!- Sketra has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:33:50 -!- chaosagent_ has joined. 02:34:23 -!- chaosagent has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:34:33 Do you like to make up "Phyrexian Nix" card of Magic: the Gathering? 02:35:12 There is a "Nix" card in Future Sight, but now we can make up the Phyrexian version? 02:46:31 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 02:46:32 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 02:49:56 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:50:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:52:04 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:58:45 -!- AnxiousGarlic has joined. 02:59:39 -!- AnxiousGarlic has left. 03:11:42 -!- bb010g has joined. 03:37:43 Looking up reversible computing terms, what I'm trying to do seems fairly similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rc-table.png 03:39:04 -!- Lymia has joined. 03:43:11 OK, but what does the "v@ = w;" and "v = @w;" stuff means there? It says "constructive assignment" but I still don't quite know 03:49:33 I'm not entirely sure. 03:49:51 By constructive it means reversible, though. 03:51:11 Probably I'll just stick with making the language I was going to and look into whatever this idea was later. 03:57:42 I'll try to get back to this in the morning now that I've started writing things down. 03:57:48 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 03:58:49 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 03:58:49 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:29:36 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:30:00 -!- Lymia has joined. 04:31:28 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:32:34 -!- Patashu has joined. 04:41:09 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:53:24 -!- dianne has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:53:47 -!- password2 has joined. 04:55:24 -!- dianne has joined. 04:55:46 -!- cooper has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:56:38 -!- cooper has joined. 04:56:50 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 05:01:36 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:04:24 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:04:58 -!- skj3gg has joined. 05:06:58 -!- password2 has joined. 05:07:15 -!- skj3gg has quit (Client Quit). 05:07:42 -!- adu has joined. 05:20:50 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 05:24:33 Hmm... it would help considerably if matlab would tell me how long a computation is going to take. 05:27:37 it's unlikely to know 05:27:45 I get the impression that Matlab is terribly coded internally 05:27:59 e.g. at one point Simulink started giving me incorrect answers, then crashed 05:28:30 zzo38: I always thought Nix was overcosted; that's an interesting way of making it cheaper 05:28:39 but it would probably be overpowered in Vintage (and unplayable elsewhere) 05:29:59 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:44:52 grr... cp with one argument should copy it into the current directory 05:51:35 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 05:55:10 -!- cooper has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:56:02 -!- cooper has joined. 06:00:10 you can give . as the second argument 06:02:28 i know but i'm lazy 06:02:29 -!- Froo has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 06:04:11 出来た！ https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor 06:07:22 ais523: Yes, I thought that too 06:10:10 I decided to start putting things online so i can reference them 06:10:23 That it seems like might be a bit overcosted 06:11:50 Still, I don't know how overpowered it would be in Vintage though; I'm not completely sure, nevertheless it might work if restricted in Vintage 06:12:15 (Someone else told me the name "Phyrexian Nix" isn't good enough because it has two "X"s in it) 06:12:32 -!- kapil___ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:13:29 should it have fewer or more? 06:14:12 They said two is too many, apparently 06:14:42 But, I just made up the name to be descriptive; I don't actually know if it would be the proper name or not. 06:15:41 phairekzian nicks 06:16:18 wait... doesn't "nix" mean snow in Latin? 06:16:55 I don't know, but nevertheless it isn't what I was refering to. 06:17:14 But if you understand Latin, then perhaps you can know. 06:19:20 hmm i was right, but the card is just named for the english word 06:22:05 so a phyrexian nix would cost 1 unstead of U? 06:23:23 No, it would cost one blue mana or two life 06:48:27 How likely is a phone to catch fire if it sustained arbitrary saltwater+fall damage? 06:49:19 [wiki] [[GOTO 10]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42090 * Qpliu * (+3052) Add GOTO 10 06:50:15 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42091&oldid=42068 * Qpliu * (+14) /* G */ Add GOTO 10 06:51:32 Hmm... i think it would depend on whether it was fully charged or not 06:53:29 It seems to be fully charged now 06:53:33 It's working, apparently 06:53:40 I'm just wondering if using it is a terminally bad idea 06:55:33 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:02:16 -!- heroux has joined. 07:05:22 salt water can cause the batteries to short-circuit but if that hasn't happened then i doubt it will 07:05:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:05:46 I would clean it with alcohol though 07:08:54 -!- arjanb has quit (Quit: bbl). 07:13:32 What does "Hocus pocus Domi Nocus" mean? 07:15:35 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:31:10 zzo38: i long ago read "hocus pocus" a corruption of the latin eucharist, although i now see there are other theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hocus_Pocus_(magic)#.E2.80.98Dog.E2.80.99_Latin , domi nocus could be a corruption of "dominus", Lord. 07:31:22 *was a corruption 07:51:25 btw, it's ais523 lawful good day today 07:51:32 I was thinking about not mentioning it and seeing if anyone noticed 07:51:37 but that wouldn't be very lawful of me 07:51:51 `? ais523 07:52:10 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 07:55:04 strangely enough, the lawful part seems harder 07:56:36 that's because laws are actually evil hth 07:56:44 not really 07:57:20 NA NA NA NA NOT LISTENING TO YOUR EVIL RATIONALIZATION 07:58:09 I meant "it didn't really help", but it isn't really true either 07:58:15 they're tools that can be used for both good and evil 07:58:22 Laws aren't necessarily evil. 08:02:17 Although, it can sometimes be... 08:02:25 what is that strange bright white thing reflecting in the neighbors' window 08:02:40 is it the fabled daystar 08:21:53 -!- adu has joined. 08:36:45 -!- chaosagent_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:40:44 I don't know; you would have to look by yourself 08:44:27 but it's too bright to look at! 08:56:49 Happy lawful good day, ais523 08:57:00 thanks 08:58:06 what the hell is a lawful good day? 08:58:45 "lawful good" is an "alignment" classification in the roleplaying game dungeons & dragons 08:58:49 it's a little hard to define well 08:58:59 i know that 08:59:07 and according to the learndb, I'm lawful good on march 2 08:59:09 *march 3 08:59:29 what 08:59:45 somebody defined it for you? 08:59:47 `? ais523 08:59:55 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 09:00:04 I suspect it was in response to something I mentioned 09:00:09 not sure if it was me who physically added it 09:00:14 but I tend towards lawful good most of the time anyway 09:00:30 I mean, I don't /feel/ that lawful, but I tend to see pretty much everyone else as chaotic 09:00:38 so I suspect I just have a skewed viewpoint 09:01:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:01:54 that sounds pretty normal for an alien 09:02:24 I seem to have ended up flitting around the good alignments 09:03:16 I think ng/cg are probably the most common alignments in real life 09:04:04 i want to be chaotic neutral 09:04:08 myname, bad 09:04:18 why 09:05:24 I don't think it's impossible to live with a CN character 09:05:30 but their carelessness can put people in danger 09:05:56 as long as it's not me 09:06:40 myname, you are bad in my viewpoint because you contradict my sense of morality 09:07:02 negligence is illegal for a reason 09:07:13 (and a good reason, at that) 09:14:20 I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200 <-- what do you have against the samoans 09:14:42 oerjan: that's what the IIRC was for 09:14:43 (also tongans etc.) 09:14:50 I'd consider opening the range a bit further for that 09:15:02 however, if it's too wide, people can use it to dodge inconvenient calendar days 09:15:49 nethack depends on days? 09:16:00 i vaguely recall something about moon though 09:16:20 the only thing the timezone even matters for is realtime-dependent things 09:16:45 -12 to +14 09:16:47 are the existing timezones 09:17:06 just allow -23:45 to +23:45 to be sure :) 09:17:15 oh, my current range is -13 to +13 09:17:23 that's both too strict and too loose 09:17:26 let me see if I can change that without invalidating existing saves 09:17:38 also, I think there are a few not on 15-minute boundaries 09:17:44 not sure though 09:17:48 not even 15-minute boundaries? 09:18:04 okay, maybe not 09:18:13 ooh, it looks safe 09:18:16 looks like 30 and 45 minutes are the oddest ones 09:18:33 (I mean, for the minute fields) 09:18:54 (if I've missed a country near the dateline or one with a weird offset, let me know) 09:18:57 yep, I should change this 09:19:17 testing now 09:19:54 +14 is ridiculous tbh 09:20:26 I should get into NetHack 09:20:45 or dwarf fortress 09:22:03 dooorfs 09:22:05 I'll help you learn NetHack if I have spare time and am online at the same time as you, if you like 09:22:54 myname, I do play Dwarf Fortress 09:23:16 ais523, thank you, but I have a lecture in 42 minutes and I am still in my pyjamas 09:23:26 right, the offer didn't necessarily imply right now 09:23:39 (I assume this is not the sort of lecture that could reasonably be attended in pyjamas) 09:23:39 Maybe some other time 09:24:03 (it's the sort of lecture that no-one has tried to attend in pyjamas, although I could probably get away with it) 09:24:09 nethack is way easier than df 09:24:10 who should I credit for this timezone range fix? #esoteric as a whole? 09:24:19 myname: well DF doesn't actually have a victory condition 09:24:25 so they're quite hard to compare for difficulty in that respect 09:24:27 (the issue is that it is 2.7 degrees outside and the lecture is a mile's walk away) 09:24:30 NetHack's interface is better, neither is great 09:24:30 ais523: !!fun!! 09:24:51 i meant difficulty in terms of learning to play it 09:24:52 myname: Fun is probably easier in NetHack than DF, admittedly 09:25:07 I can't think of a way to creatively suicide in DF /quite/ as fast as you can in NetHack 09:26:12 this doesn't really need crediting at all, I guess 09:26:19 but it feels wrong to not mention credit on lawful good day 09:26:30 gah, I'm going to be stuck with this sort of dilemma all day, aren't I? 09:26:33 The last time I tried to play NetHack, I drank from a fountain and then there were snakes everywhere 09:27:14 i mess up sokoban way to often 09:27:24 hmm, I'm going to say "well don't do that then", rather than the typical reaction along the lines of "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED, DIRTY FOUNTAIN QUAFFER" 09:28:24 Taneb: well don't do that then 09:28:29 ais523: just credit it to me hth 09:28:31 ais523, I will bear that in mind 09:28:50 bleh, I suspect I'm being trolled 09:29:01 I'll credit it to you if you like, though 09:29:05 (does elliott want credit too?) 09:29:18 hm? 09:29:26 you can write my name as "Ørjan Johansen, my Lord and Master" hth 09:29:45 there are other ways to write your name too 09:29:50 elliott: for the NH4 timezone change 09:29:55 (just trying to remove all suspicion here) 09:29:57 i don't desire credit 09:30:31 OK, I think this solves my issue 09:30:38 of course i won't complain much if you countertroll by taking me literally 09:30:56 besides, it lets me fit more non-ASCII characters into the commit log 09:31:07 but I think I'll leave the bit after the comma off, it seems inappropriate 09:31:16 on reflection, i think counter-troll needs a hyphen 09:31:46 I should start writing my surname "van D∞m" 09:31:51 hmm 09:32:08 I doubt most spellcheckers would recognise it without the - 09:32:13 on the other hand, language has a tendency to evolve 09:32:26 the #esoteric version would probably use a diaeresis despite the fact that diaereses don't work like that 09:32:48 counterẗroll 09:32:53 `unidecode D∞m 09:32:54 ​[U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D] [U+221E INFINITY] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] 09:33:07 `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN 09:33:12 No output. 09:33:17 ais523: cöunter-troll? 09:33:18 that's what I expected 09:33:27 coppro: that'd be pronounced "co-unter troll" 09:33:28 `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN 09:33:30 No output. 09:33:46 which is quite a neat word, but which would sound noticeably different 09:33:49 ais523: well if you want to get technical, the diaresis should be on the u, I dunno how that's pronounced 09:33:57 we need boily here as the diäëresis authority 09:34:44 err, you're right 09:34:59 diaeresis basically just puts a syllable break between two vowels, causing them to be pronounced individually 09:35:11 back when I was young, it was still mentioned in some books that taught English 09:35:38 Outside of this channel I've only seen in it in some variations of the name Zoe 09:35:40 I have a theory that it was driven almost to extinction by the use of ASCII-based computers (and also printing presses and typewriters to some extent, but those are better at them) 09:35:59 Taneb: right, Zoë and Noël were probably the most common uses at the time 09:36:15 (oë is pronounced "oh-ee", as expected) 09:36:39 But now I see that quite often without diaereses 09:36:40 Taneb: don't forget the Encyclopædia Britannica 09:36:43 the co-unter trolls, coënslaving the coübertrolls 09:37:06 oerjan, the categoric dual of übertrolls? 09:37:15 yep 09:37:28 ais523: that and the fact that it's really inadequate in modern English 09:37:31 oerjan: I'm genuinely impressed at the way you managed to work "uber"/"über" in there, leaving it ambiguous 09:37:31 Or are they trolls that are coüber 09:38:22 uld be 09:38:29 coü̈bertrolls 09:38:40 due to loanwords and calques, and the rarity of two consecutive vowel sounds, it really isn't that good 09:39:09 I think the main issue is that the hyphen is normally pretty suitable, it serves almost the same purpose in that context 09:39:10 coppro, how uncooperative and unscientific of you 09:39:30 sci-ence 09:39:33 I don't like the hyphen 09:39:46 I prefer coöperate to co-operate, where ambiguous 09:40:06 Hmm, I actually pronounce "science" with the same vowel sound as "fire" 09:40:48 actually, yes 09:40:57 "co-operate" looks like it has a meaning of "to operate alongside with" 09:41:06 "the co-pilot is responsible for co-operating the plane" 09:41:38 coop erata 09:42:04 I'll need to recooperate after this discussion 09:42:22 it doens't help that no native english speaker reasonably expects to be able to pronounce the vowels in a word based on its spelling 09:42:42 do any non-native english speakers expect that after a little experience? 09:42:51 and I don't think the situation's quite that bad 09:42:52 I hope not 09:42:56 some words don't follow a pattern, but many do 09:43:22 there are enough common exceptions to break things, though 09:43:30 like 'though' and 'through' 09:43:45 coppro, that's tough 09:43:47 and trough 09:43:48 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:44:08 Someone ought to fix that 09:44:27 I'm not sure anyone has the power; and if anyone did, they would probably get in trouble for using it that way 09:44:43 also some variants of thorough 09:44:56 ais523, not if they're thorough 09:45:13 I'm pretty sure some speakers will use five different vowels for those five words 09:46:37 coppro, I think there are 10 or 11 different ways 09:46:58 hmm, I pronounce the vowels as though = show, through = who, tough = stuff, trough = cloth (although the final consonant is slightly different), and thorough has two vowels but the second seems to be a neutral er 09:47:09 but I'm having problems thinking of a word with a neutral er in right now 09:47:35 slightly weaker than the second vowel in "partner" I guess 09:48:15 banana 09:48:37 yeah, that's close enough 09:48:43 possibly /too/ neutral though 09:48:45 ais523: yeah, those match mine 09:48:50 bleh, English is so variable 09:48:59 I love how "banana" has three vowels with the same letter and three different pronunciations 09:48:59 coppro: and yet, your accident is unlikely to match mine, due to the nationality difference 09:49:23 ais523: right. 09:49:27 welcome to linguistics 09:49:28 ais523, I highly doubt our accents match very much, or even me and elliott 09:49:54 for me, the word "thorough" rhymes with "full" 09:50:07 you mean matching vowels? or an actual rhyme? 09:50:08 with a slightly weaker, but still audible, l sound 09:51:15 I should really get dressed and leave soon 09:51:22 you do that then 09:51:33 barring someone with founder status going crazy, #esoteric will still be here when you get back 09:52:00 hmm, and the founder status apparently belongs to freenode-staff 09:52:23 a little surprising, you'd expect it to either belong to one of the channel regulars, or belong to someone who hasn't been seen for years 09:52:37 Maybe the original founder was deregistered 09:52:52 I made a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.2 but it still has some things wrong with it; I have thought of a few things to try to fix it, though, but I can tell you what is wrong. I need to ensure that if you have bad luck, you cannot win the subgame, and that opponent is able to get the chance to cast Golden Wish on the turn after you have controlled him, but not during that turn. 09:57:30 But that nevertheless you can still win the main game regardless of how the cards are shuffled in the subgame, who goes first in the subgame, or how much your opponent mulligans during the subgame. 09:58:21 zzo38: in that case, why wouldn't you just concede the subgame? 09:58:23 rather than playing it out? 09:58:47 hmm, now I'm wondering how the changes to the Wish rules affect subgames 09:59:10 can you wish for main game cards from the subgame? and can you riftsweeper in main game cards from the subgame? 10:06:05 wait... Riftsweeper is another card with the ability of Pull from Eternity? I thought they made only one such card, even in the block with suspend 10:07:03 and in green too... strange 10:07:16 I thought this would be a white or blue ability only 10:07:21 it's a creature rather than an instant/sorcery 10:07:35 I guess it's understandible because green gets to recycle all types of cards from the graveyard 10:07:45 Taneb: i remember the founder used to be someone with a greek-sounding nick 10:08:35 andreou? 10:08:38 ais523: This puzzle http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 you can't win by just conceding the subgame 10:08:41 and they indeed got deregistered, which isn't surprising given they'd been gone for years 10:08:44 Phantom_Hoover: that was it 10:09:12 And I believe that the rules allow you to take cards from anywhere in the main game as if they were in your sideboard; someone else confirmed this. 10:09:31 (I'm not sure what happens with exiled face-down cards you own but aren't allowed to look at.) 10:09:42 "Black Lotus [4x]" 10:09:49 somehow I feel that makes it a little less elegant 10:09:55 also, the rules used to say that 10:10:05 but they changed a few years ago, and I don't know if the new rules still say that 10:10:18 It was the newest rules that I studied. 10:10:30 And that I asked about. 10:10:47 ah right 10:11:08 ok wait, which white card exiles creatures and says in the flavor text that they don't use death penalty? 10:11:24 I don't know. 10:12:34 The current rules prohibit you from taking exiled cards from the current game as if they were in your sideboard, but does allow taking them from exile zone in a game that this is a subgame of, as if they were in your sideboard. 10:13:34 b_jonas: swords to plowshares, path to exile, oust are the best-known white exilers 10:13:39 wait, oust doesn't exile 10:13:41 it returns to lirbary 10:13:44 probably path to exile 10:15:21 ais523: hehe, those are the ones the most used in competitions, but to me Unamake, Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, and some blinkers are more familiar 10:16:52 You can't just concede the subgame immediately because the point of entering the subgame isn't just to half your life total, to shuffle anyone's library, or to look at the cards in your library (which you already know anyways). Opponent can't concede because then he would lose the main game too. 10:17:44 See? 10:18:00 zzo38: well, suppose you enter the subgame 10:18:04 and your opponent gets first turn 10:18:11 then you immediately lose it due to drawing from an empty library 10:18:33 can't you still cast instants before that? 10:18:40 oh wait 10:18:41 yes but you have no cards in hand 10:18:48 you lose when drawing your initial hand? 10:18:48 you start the subgame with an empty library 10:18:53 err, hmm 10:18:59 oh, it's so empty you don't even get your starting 7 cards 10:19:02 lose while you're drawing those 10:19:03 I assumed either you wouldn't lose, or you could avoid losing via mulliganing to 0 10:19:06 I think we need a judge for this 10:19:14 no, I think it's in the rules 10:19:16 I think you lose 10:19:20 You can lose when drawing your initial hand (well, just afterward; you won't lose until someone gets priority); even if you mulligan, I think. 10:19:24 you could possibly pull it off in Conspiracy too 10:19:34 via running eight "reduce minimum deck size" conspiracies 10:19:36 But that won't happen if you solve the puzzle correctly... 10:19:57 you'd need to put more cards into your library first, then, I guess 10:20:17 Yes, of course 10:21:26 Can you see how? 10:21:40 I'm not actually trying to solve the puzzle 10:23:11 The fact that there is no mana burn in the current rules is important because otherwise you might lose due to mana burn, I think 10:23:47 yes, look Shahrazad even has a ruling 10:23:55 "At the start of the sub-game both players draw their initial hand (usually 7 cards). If one player has fewer cards than required, that player loses. If both have fewer than required, both players lose." 10:24:20 that might be obsolate, btu I think the first part still applies 10:24:28 because the rules definitely say you _draw_ seven cards 10:24:41 Some of the rulings for other cards are disputed, although I do not dispute this one. 10:25:15 That specific ruling looks correct to me. 10:25:27 zzo38: sure, some of them are definitely obsolate because the rules have changed since 10:28:22 -!- gamemanj has joined. 10:53:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: lunch). 11:05:48 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: switching to a new server). 11:08:25 -!- nortti has joined. 11:08:26 -!- nortti has quit (Client Quit). 11:08:37 -!- nortti has joined. 11:08:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:22:40 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:23:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 11:25:20 -!- boily has joined. 11:27:25 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 11:27:26 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:27:39 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 11:31:22 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:45:35 -!- FreeFull has joined. 11:48:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:56:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:58:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting). 12:06:32 Tough, trough, though, through, thorough, dough, plough, hiccough 12:08:08 Oh wait, dough isn't unique 12:16:15 Jafellot. why so much matinal suffering. 12:18:13 Jafet: wait, I have a list 12:18:37 here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_Englishhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_English 12:18:43 how many there are depends on the dialect 12:31:27 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VORPAL CHICKEN). 13:07:37 -!- cooper has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:08:29 -!- cooper has joined. 13:08:46 -!- Koen_ has joined. 13:17:06 -!- atehwa has joined. 13:24:33 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 13:31:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:31:41 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:32:03 -!- hjulle has joined. 13:35:16 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:45:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:53:59 -!- Lymia has joined. 13:54:59 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:01:14 -!- nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:11:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:11:38 -!- Tritonio has joined. 14:16:56 Well, I made it to that lecture 14:17:01 It was a very useful lecture 14:17:08 I registered to vote during it 14:17:22 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:20:35 presumably not in pyjamas 14:20:53 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 14:22:25 No, it was cold outside 14:26:43 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 14:45:58 -!- gamemanj has left. 14:46:49 -!- skj3gg has joined. 14:49:55 -!- gamemanj has joined. 14:51:52 -!- adu has joined. 14:53:43 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 14:55:16 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 15:06:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:09:03 -!- skj3gg has joined. 15:21:12 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:41:32 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:45:26 is there any befunge-like language for more than two dimensions? 15:45:37 trefunge 15:45:50 I'm not sure it's been generalized past two though 15:45:51 err, past three 15:46:08 i don't know one 15:46:23 it'd be possible using gifs or the like, but i don't know any 15:46:59 trefunge uses formfeed to separate planes, just like befunge uses newline to separate lines 15:47:43 -!- cooper has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:49:25 That must be a pain to program in. 15:49:41 You'd need a special editor to know that stuff actually lined up. 15:51:20 I think Befunge IDEs exist, don't know if they generalise to Trefunge 15:56:24 Unefunge is a fun language too 15:56:37 even if it's basically just a subset of Befunge where you don't have to specify y coordinates 15:56:55 is unefunge proven to be tc? 16:02:39 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:03:03 I'm pretty sure unefunge-98 is (assuming at least one fingerprint that gives access to infinite memory in a non-insane way) 16:03:08 (or even cetain insane ways) 16:04:04 -!- idris-bot has joined. 16:10:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:26:48 -!- mihow has joined. 16:32:49 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:35:46 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:38:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:59:42 -!- ^v has joined. 17:28:37 -!- gamemanj has quit (Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10.5 -- Are we there yet?). 17:31:06 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:34 -!- Koen_ has joined. 17:31:39 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:41:13 -!- mhi^ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:41:22 -!- Koen_ has joined. 17:51:31 -!- arjanb has joined. 17:54:52 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 18:07:44 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:14:20 -!- GeekDude has joined. 18:15:42 -!- skj3gg has joined. 18:27:24 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:40:35 -!- naturalog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:46:42 -!- naturalo1 has joined. 18:50:07 -!- naturalo1 has changed nick to naturalog. 18:57:05 -!- Lymia has joined. 18:57:09 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:57:29 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 18:57:35 -!- TodPunk has joined. 18:59:43 -!- skj3gg has joined. 19:02:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:06:47 -!- MDream has joined. 19:10:17 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:10:22 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:11:51 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:12:17 -!- TodPunk has joined. 19:18:31 -!- naturalog has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:24:54 -!- naturalog has joined. 19:44:32 -!- nisstyre has joined. 19:45:30 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host). 19:45:30 -!- nisstyre has joined. 19:50:05 -!- j-bot has joined. 19:55:05 -!- nys has joined. 20:01:48 -!- Patashu has joined. 20:02:40 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:56 -!- aloril has joined. 20:04:56 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:05:09 -!- Tritonio has joined. 20:14:39 -!- Soni has joined. 20:14:58 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 20:15:45 regex meets brainfuck: https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/36d2ccf875ea025c8fe5 20:17:31 -!- skj3gg has joined. 20:21:34 wait, where's the brainfuck? >.> 20:23:18 I meant it's made to be very simple 20:23:57 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSleep. 20:24:34 * elliott nods 20:24:42 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:24:48 I kinda think of regexps as regexps meets brainfuck already 20:24:54 especially in the readability department 20:25:01 yeah 20:25:11 that's what using % to escape stuff instead of \ solves 20:25:15 (see also lua patterns) 20:27:10 \\\\\\\\ vs \\\\ (or with "raw strings" just \\) 20:29:38 I mean not counting additional string quoting there 20:29:50 though it's horrible to write regexps in languages where you have to use normal string syntax for it yeah 20:31:13 (abc|def) is clunky, Lua's issue of not being able to do [a-%%] is also clunky 20:31:17 -!- Frooxius has joined. 20:31:38 I solve both while keeping it simple 20:32:32 and ofc I also support being able to put [] inside [] (which's just silly but w/e) 20:32:38 I kinda like (abc|def) 20:32:43 it's just a composition of (...) and | 20:32:52 (you can actually do foo|bar at the top-level) 20:32:53 things I'm lacking: anchors and precedence 20:33:06 it's annoying how syntactic grouping without creating a match group is (?:...), though 20:33:14 meh, [(foo)(bar)] parsing is easier to code 20:34:04 hmm 20:34:23 I don't specify if groups are match groups or just syntactic groups 20:34:26 :P 20:34:37 (I mean in normal regexps) 20:34:40 I guess that's what version 0.1 is for 20:34:49 yeah ik 20:37:26 -!- gamemanj has joined. 20:39:12 -!- crinzesi has joined. 21:04:11 interesting fact: memmove is much slower than using memcpy with a scrap buffer. 21:05:23 it would be kind of bad if a large memmove caused a large allocation I guess 21:05:35 I think that is what happens 21:06:35 And the memcpy is faster because the scrap buffer is allocated only once 21:07:02 I seriously doubt that's what happens 21:07:28 you just implement memmove by going backwards or whatever 21:07:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 21:07:38 -!- elliott has kicked crinzesi spamming. 21:07:38 -!- crinzesi has joined. 21:07:47 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*crinzesi@*. 21:07:49 -!- elliott has kicked crinzesi crinzesi. 21:07:50 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 21:07:51 That is what I would do, but why would it be slower then? 21:08:00 stuff about caches or whatever 21:08:01 memmove typically needs to check which part of the buffer overlaps and then go forwards/backwards as apporpriate 21:08:15 yeah but I doubt one branch makes that much difference 21:08:26 unless oren is testing with really tiny n 21:09:02 my tests were in the context of https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor 21:09:23 To remove one pixel from a scanline I copy the rest of the line back 21:10:06 So N is in [0,4K] or something 21:12:14 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:15:38 Hm... Maybe something to do with SIMD instructions? 21:16:35 -!- skj3gg_ has joined. 21:19:25 -!- skj3gg has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:33:05 How esoteric would you define this to be?: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/in.oshl 21:33:42 -!- skj3gg_ has quit (Quit: welp, see you later.). 21:34:53 In Pascal, SQL, and some versions of BASIC, there is no string escaping but you can make the string delimiter doubled to make quotations marks inside of the string. 21:36:10 So what would happen if you had to output BASIC with "" in from a program written in BASIC? """"? 21:38:03 gamemanj: you have to write it as PRINT CHR$(38)+CHR$(38) 21:39:13 """""" 21:40:24 I prefer hollerith 21:51:32 [wiki] [[Clip/Examples]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42092&oldid=42077 * Ypnypn * (+27) /* Quine */ 22:04:13 110 FORMAT (13HHello, World!) 22:04:29 10 WRITE (*,110) 22:04:37 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:08:28 -!- Melvar` has joined. 22:09:41 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:10:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:14 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:16:20 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:16:43 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 22:17:06 -!- idris-bot has joined. 22:17:37 -!- idris-bot has quit (Client Quit). 22:26:00 Hm. Assuming ZFC is consistent, it's possible to explicitly define a countable model of ZFC. 22:26:15 It's not computable, but it's definable. 22:26:23 Convenient. 22:32:42 -!- hjulle has joined. 22:32:47 Gah what is your definition of convenient? 22:33:37 What /would/ it take to make set theory computable 22:33:46 -!- ^v^v has joined. 22:37:47 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:41:09 Are there any programming languages where sets are a first class data type? 22:46:36 Hmm... It actually might be harder than i thought. you need some way of manipulating infinite sets without reifying them 22:49:10 yes, there are 22:49:37 there's one or two on the wiki even 22:49:48 also type theory is famous for doing this (though with types rather than sets, but) 22:50:08 also there are constructive set theories. you can compute with them 22:50:12 (depending on what you mean by "computing" though) 22:53:35 Hm... I guess I don't know what I mean by computing, except that calculators generally don't do it and computers do... 22:54:45 -!- idris-bot has joined. 22:54:48 I guess it's something to do with the complexity of the input versus the output? 22:57:26 Nah... more like, a "computer" has the ability to be programmed with new behaviour. 22:57:56 Whereas a calculator generally can't 23:00:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:01:45 So a computer where there are no programming tools would IMO be just an advanced calculator, not a real computer 23:04:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:11:13 -!- augur_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 23:16:04 -!- mitchs has left. 23:21:41 oren, so like... a smartphone is an advanced calculator? 23:22:07 a games console is an advanced calculator? 23:25:42 -!- augur has joined. 23:26:26 pretty much. Their behaviour is too closely linked to their input... Unless the game is minecraft or dwarf fortress etc. 23:35:55 'their behaviour is too closely linked to their input' what does this even mean 23:45:26 I agree that a computer without programming tools won't be very good. 23:45:38 Any computer should include programming tools built-in. 23:48:47 Also there are programmable calculators too 23:49:56 ^ 23:50:02 that's how I first learned to program 23:54:56 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.