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00:03:55 <HackEgo> vodkode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:06:26 <oerjan> you do not have clearance for that information citizen
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00:48:35 <quintopia> ProofTechnique: cannot wait for apr 4
00:48:45 <quintopia> oerjan: what's your opinion of danny elfman
00:51:17 <oerjan> ok i googled, still no opinion
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08:59:02 <HackEgo> olist (977): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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09:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42110&oldid=38399 * 77.88.93.100 * (+231) /* Interpreters */
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10:33:34 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forget,_when_up_to_one%27s_neck_in_alligators,_that_the_mission_is_to_drain_the_swamp
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11:30:02 <J_Arcane> so i have a dumb idea for a gui framework
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11:42:54 <oren> J_Arcane: can't be much dumber than the ones that exist.
11:42:55 <oren> So, what language?
11:42:55 <J_Arcane> oren: Racket, but possibly not directly, but rather as a major feature of my next language project.
11:42:56 <J_Arcane> The gist is that the "view" is a function, which takes a model and returns the model, but the function's described with a declarative template syntax that describes both the UI elements, and the input/output elements of same. The function takes a struct/object and injects its values into the output fields as described in the template, and then returns a new struct with the values of the...
11:42:56 <J_Arcane> So you'd have (view (window (textbox FOO) (button BAR))), and you pass (view ...) a struct containing fields FOO and BAR, and the framework would draw a window and put the value of FOO into the text box, and if BAR gets clicked, when it returns that cycle, BAR will equal #t or whatever.
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11:48:56 <diginet> you know what would be interesting?
11:48:56 <diginet> instead of esoteric languages, esoteric CPUs
11:48:58 <diginet> or more specifically, esoteric instruction sets
11:49:12 <diginet> (which I guess in a way, does kind of fall under the category of language)
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12:48:08 <FireFly> Also the GPU-like one by ais523
12:48:28 <FireFly> Ah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout
12:50:33 <Taneb> I'll be doing a topology module next year!
12:55:14 <Taneb> So maybe I'll be able to figure out what a chu space actually is
12:55:19 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
12:55:27 <Taneb> Huh, apparently it's just a matrix
12:59:48 <FireFly> You'd think you would know
13:00:31 <Taneb> Chu also stole my memory of it
13:00:36 <Taneb> And a lot of the precursors to it
13:01:50 <Taneb> I've had to relearn all of group theory in the past three years
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13:21:03 <Taneb> fnordbot, how are you doing?
13:21:04 <fnordbot> Taneb: in the dead of myxomatosis, if it's all the same to you," he added, " i'll have you hung, huge, heavy, steady in the sky a huge green catalogue to keep us out!" " what the hell am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the bridge at that, i can tell. ford was running after him very fast? " very pretty," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was on
13:21:19 <fizzie> I predict a fungot on Saturday.
13:22:23 <int-e> oh wow, myxomatosis
13:22:39 <int-e> somebody ban curtiii please.
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13:22:58 <elliott> didn't I ban something like that recently
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13:29:04 <elliott> whoever greps the log for the last one like that and tells me the commonality
13:29:41 <FireFly> Hm, they query-spammed in #dolphin-emu a few hours ago as well
13:30:23 <FireFly> 2015-03-03 22:07:53 <-- elliott has kicked crinzesi (crinzesi)
13:31:09 <FireFly> 2015-01-03 01:10:31 <-- elliott has kicked corsee (corsee)
13:32:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC is back online
13:32:49 <mroman> damn webserver isn't setting charset=utf-8 though.
13:33:39 <mroman> (http://esosc.mroman.ch also works)
13:34:02 <elliott> FireFly: but what were the hostmasks :(
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13:35:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42111&oldid=42082 * 160.85.232.191 * (+113) * ESOSC back in da buzinezz <br><br>
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13:36:58 <int-e> :crinzesi!~crinzesi@213.143.60.205 JOIN #esoteri :corsee!~corsee@90.174.3.1 JOIN #esoteric ...
13:37:17 <elliott> okay well let's just ban everyone with names starting with c
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13:40:24 <int-e> Two addresses assigned to France Telecom Spain (cprinzesi, curtiii), an IP belonging to ZHAW (http://www.zhaw.ch/), and no obvious link; could be a botnet.
13:41:29 <elliott> what were they spamming again? I've forgotten already
13:42:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EnumCZ * New user account
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13:55:43 <quintopia> elliott: i agree. especially clog. that guy steams me up.
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14:01:47 <mroman> Taneb: http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2014-D3-R1.TXT
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14:03:00 <nortti> why the limit to just latin letters?
14:03:31 <Taneb> mroman, the grammar seems to have no "This is what the format is" thingy
14:03:57 <Taneb> Initial variable, I think that's the word
14:04:00 <Taneb> Also, what nortti said
14:04:05 <FireFly> mroman: wouldn't that be ESOSC-2015-D3-R1?
14:04:27 <mroman> but it started in 2014 :)
14:04:29 <Taneb> Also I think shorthand variables should generally be separated by spaces when ambiguity can occur
14:04:50 <Taneb> Although that isn't a problem in this version
14:04:57 <mroman> you mean for variables with two or more letters?
14:06:32 <mroman> ideally you'd say that two letters requires spaces?
14:07:52 <mroman> lambda = L, variable, ".", term; that'd be non-abbreviated
14:08:46 <mroman> you can't distinguish \xy as \"xy" from abbreviated \"x".\"y". then
14:09:14 <mroman> you could require multi letter variables to start with a special character
14:10:19 <mroman> like _ or ' or whatever
14:10:36 <mroman> then \_xy_zc is without ambuigity \_xy.\_zc
14:11:49 <mroman> but you can't parse it otherwise
14:11:54 <FireFly> I think mandating \x y z. is fine
14:12:05 <mroman> then you can't write \xyz
14:12:30 <mroman> but that's a good trade-off :)
14:12:36 <quintopia> pfft who needs multiletter variables? just allow all of unicode as variable names!
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14:15:52 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK] [U+003B SEMICOLON]
14:16:20 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT
14:16:31 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0440 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER]
14:17:01 <int-e> quintopia: I'm actually really happy with programming languages that are restricted to ASCII.
14:17:40 <HackEgo> [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER]
14:19:55 <nortti> mroman: how about whitespace? maybe just declare that you can use additional whitespace between elements?
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14:21:46 <mroman> nortti: Ah. Good point.
14:21:55 <mroman> I'm not sure how you embed that into EBNF
14:22:03 <mroman> except like saying "additional whitespaces are ignored"
14:23:11 <mroman> there's no space allowed in there
14:23:54 <mroman> L, {spaces}, variable, {spaces}, ".", {spaces}
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14:26:26 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT <- like that? @nortti
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14:28:10 <nortti> that disallows ( foo )
14:28:44 <nortti> maybe add additional { spaces }, to the beginning of term?
14:31:25 <mroman> (updated http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT)
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14:31:41 <nortti> also, where am I to start reading the grammar specification? at term?
14:31:43 <mroman> (there's a ; missing after variable, too.)
14:31:43 <quintopia> does ? thing ? mean the same as thing | ''?
14:32:11 <mroman> ISO/IEC 14977 says ? ? is a special sequence
14:32:18 <mroman> with human readable stuff afaik
14:32:26 <mroman> ? those weird looking letters ?
14:32:58 <mroman> { } is optional repetition
14:33:33 <quintopia> so { thing } means the same as thing = things | ''?
14:33:43 <mroman> { thing } is zero or more times a thing.
14:35:34 <mroman> variable = .. { spaces } is stupid though
14:35:41 <mroman> spaces aren't part of the variable actually
14:35:52 <mroman> it'd also conflict with { variable, " " },
14:37:27 <mroman> (http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R2.TXT)
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14:39:02 <nortti> so no whitespace permitted in the "\x."? I see
14:39:15 <mroman> "\x ." is illegal, yes
14:39:59 <mroman> L, { variable, " " }, variable, ".", term, { spaces };
14:40:12 <nortti> also, isn't the { spaces } in the end of lambda a bit redundant? it can only end in term, which ends in { spaces }
14:40:12 <mroman> L, { variable, " " }, [ variable ], ".", term, { spaces }; should fix that however?
14:40:49 <nortti> same with parens and application
14:42:51 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R3.TXT <- like that
14:42:57 <mroman> that would allow "\x ."
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14:44:15 <nortti> wait, why [ variable ] ?
14:44:34 <mroman> you want "\x y." to be legal
14:44:59 <mroman> which wouldn't be legal only with { variable, " " } because then you'd be missing a space after "y"
14:45:18 <mroman> because this way it is optional
14:45:25 <mroman> thus allowing "\x y ."
14:45:51 <mroman> (otherwise "\x y ." would be illegal because it expects another variable)
14:46:19 <mroman> this way L, { spaces }, variable , ".", term; is actually redundant
14:46:42 <mroman> otherwise "\." would be legal :D
14:47:13 <mroman> but you'd want at least one variable, " "
14:49:34 <mroman> { variable, " " } [variable] is both zero or more
14:50:37 <mroman> but (variable, " ") wouldn't allow "\x ." again :(
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14:51:16 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D3-R4.TXT <- ok, that should fix that zero variables
14:52:20 <nortti> how about replacing " " with a space in general?
14:52:36 <mroman> I was just thinking about that too :D
14:52:56 <mroman> " " could be replaced with { space }
14:53:06 <mroman> so it would allow even stuff like "\x y z"
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14:54:48 <mroman> L, { space }, (variable, { space }), { variable, { space } },
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14:58:35 <mroman> Taneb: "this is what the format is"?
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15:08:07 <Taneb> mroman, a canonical top grammar thing
15:08:11 <Taneb> LambdaExpression := ...
15:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42112&oldid=41856 * 160.85.232.191 * (+81) /* External resources */ adding ESOSC link.
15:09:23 <mroman> do you have a suggested wording?
15:09:32 <nortti> hmm, what happened to ESOSC brainfuck?
15:09:46 <mroman> nortti: I think it died due to no consent could be reached?
15:09:48 <Taneb> mroman, make that clear
15:10:22 <nortti> ah, ok. a bit confusing that it seems to have been skipped in numbering
15:11:14 <mroman> lambda calculus syntax was D5
15:11:19 <mroman> I guess I should keep it D5
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15:13:47 <mroman> Taneb: http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2014-D5-R5.TXT <- like that
15:13:52 <mroman> or again: Suggested wording :D?
15:14:08 <Taneb> mroman, that's good
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16:04:19 <mroman> 'aight. Then I guess it goes into waiting for approval state @ nortti Taneb
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16:35:32 <Taneb> mroman, I also approve
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17:15:37 <int-e> wait, \x . y is illegal?
17:16:20 <int-e> (and do you want printable letters or characters in variable names?)
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17:16:54 <int-e> finally I'd worry about associativity, since a b c can be parsed in two ways (though everybody knows which one is the "right" one)
17:18:52 <int-e> wouldn't this be simpler for "lambda"? lambda = L, { space }, { variable, { space } }, variable, { space }, ".", term
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17:28:39 <mroman> int-e: no. term has a leading { space }
17:29:11 <int-e> I was worried about the space before the .
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17:29:41 <int-e> I see now that this is allowed; I fail to see the purpose of the [ variable ]
17:29:55 <int-e> In any case the productions look unnecessarily complicated.
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17:31:59 <mroman> L, { space }, { variable, { space } }, variable, { space }, ".", term; should indeed work
17:32:05 <mroman> and is more concise you're right.
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17:37:14 <int-e> I would probably end up with something like http://sprunge.us/SIfJ
17:37:40 <int-e> (I mainly did that as an exercise for myself.)
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17:47:53 <int-e> Oh, writing parsers without tokenization is so tedious. Now "abc" can be up to three variables...
17:48:12 <int-e> s/parsers/grammars/
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19:17:34 <fizzie> Calling back to yesterday's discussion about the "single USB-C port only in MacBook Whateveritwas", apparently we just released an updated version of the "Pixel" Chromebook, and it has... a USB-C port both for charging and peripherals. (Except it's got two of those, and two regular USB 3 type-B ports. Also I think it's not quite as crazy-expensive as the old Pixel, even if it's still quite so.)
19:19:14 <fizzie> I'm not so happy about USB type-C ports in general, but I guess if it turns out all new laptops will use it for charging (instead of having custom charger ports) that's a win?
19:20:09 <fizzie> "-- universal charger[3] make it easy to take Pixel anywhere --" "[3] Charger only works with USB Type-C devices." nice footnote.
19:20:17 <fizzie> And/or nice definition of "universal".
19:21:14 <fizzie> (Also I meant type A ports instead of type B in the above. I keep mixing those up.)
19:22:35 <int-e> meh, another USB connector?!
19:23:08 <int-e> (old news apparently but I haven't been paying attention)
19:23:16 <fizzie> Yes, yes... but standardized chargers!
19:24:00 <fizzie> On the other hand, another USB connector. :/
19:27:23 <fizzie> Also the standard type C size is pretty small (not too much larger than micro-B), so maybe they won't make mini-C and micro-C next. (Yeah, right.)
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19:37:22 <int-e> and 24 pins, crazy.
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19:51:20 <HackEgo> [U+1D64 LATIN SUBSCRIPT SMALL LETTER U]
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20:41:08 <fizzie> int-e: Those are some pretty small pins.
20:41:13 <fizzie> int-e: Must be expensive to make, too.
20:41:55 <fizzie> (Well, that was just pure guesswork, I don't know anything about making hardware. Maybe it's not.)
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21:44:31 <oren> ok i'm an idiot. my monitor was glitching up, and i tried to screenshot it
21:44:57 <oren> obviously the computer has no idea about glitches in the monitor
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21:47:17 <oerjan> well at least it proves the error isn't somewhere earlier
21:49:15 <oren> true. clearly the error is between the display memory and the LCD panel
21:50:21 <oren> although I should have known that, given that I have been solving the glitches by punching the back of the screen
21:52:06 <oren> Someone should make a laptop with a webcam that points at the screen
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21:54:55 <fizzie> Or maybe just a portable reflective surface you can hold in your hands.
21:55:39 <boily> helloren. fizziello. hellørjan.
21:55:47 <boily> oren: what do you glitches look like?
21:58:12 <oren> It looks like the screen freezing and then slowly turning white until I hit it
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22:47:32 <oren> `unidecode ー一～
22:47:33 <HackEgo> [U+30FC KATAKANA-HIRAGANA PROLONGED SOUND MARK] [U+4E00 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4E00] [U+FF5E FULLWIDTH TILDE]
22:49:30 <ais523> that last one is a tilde
22:49:53 <HackEgo> [U+FF0D FULLWIDTH HYPHEN-MINUS]
22:51:21 <oren> [U+FFUU FULLWIDTH WHAT-THE-FUCK]
22:51:50 <fizzie> `run unicode 'EN DASH' 'EM DASH' # I'm missing a compose key
22:52:50 <fizzie> The difference between e{n,m} dashes is pretty subtle (if it even exists) on this particular monospace font.
22:53:06 <fizzie> Maybe that makes sense, given the names.
22:53:39 <oren> On my terminal settings the em dash overlies the next charcter
22:53:55 <ais523> it's very clear in this proportional one
22:54:02 <ais523> but in a monospace font, 'm' and 'n' have the same width
22:54:10 <ais523> so you'd expect em and en dashes to have the same width, too
22:54:26 <fizzie> Yes, that was the "makes sense" part.
22:54:38 <oren> I think a lot of the characters are being taken from some other font who
22:54:53 <oren> is porposional
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22:56:12 <oren> Yeah. This font only supports characters from Shift-JIS
22:58:37 <boily> my apartment just vibrated, with a dull sound of somebody having tripped...
23:02:45 <oerjan> porpoisonal sound fonts
23:03:22 <oerjan> boily: is someone living upstairs twh
23:03:45 <oren> Interesting fact: shift-jis has twelve characters whose origins and meanings are entirely unknown:墸壥妛彁挧暃椢槞蟐袮閠駲
23:04:11 <oren> These later made it into unicode
23:04:35 <lifthrasiir> actually, 彁 is the only character with completely unknown origin
23:04:49 <oerjan> oren: they're a magical incantation that causes cthulhu to trip 5 minutes in the past hth
23:04:51 <lifthrasiir> others have partial infos about them available
23:05:42 <oren> Do they have a meaning?
23:07:32 <oren> Ah, that makes sense
23:07:44 <lifthrasiir> 彁 is unique because there is no clue about the origin of error (or if any, plausible origin)
23:08:04 <lifthrasiir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0208#Kanji_from_unknown_sources
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23:10:55 <ais523> so, do those kanji have any actual pronunciation?
23:11:02 <boily> oren: there aren't nobody upstairs. and as far as I know, there is no upstairs.
23:11:13 <ais523> I'm guessing no, because IIRC you cant pronounce a kanji just from its shape
23:11:33 <boily> I'm sure some demented entomologist'll come with a meaning for 蟐 someday.
23:11:34 <lifthrasiir> ais523: in fact, to some degress, you can.
23:11:47 <oren> http://kanjitisiki.com/yuureimozi/ Some have pronounciations listed on this website
23:12:10 <lifthrasiir> most kanjis (or hanjas or hanzis, anyway) are phono-semantic compounds and their sounds can be inferred from a part of the character
23:12:19 <fizzie> Hm. I tried to find a lounge with a VW bus in it, but only found a Star Trek corridor, a ball pit, and a pile of rooms named after Star Trek characters. I think I'm in the wrong building.
23:12:27 <oren> oh, yeah. "read the side"
23:13:06 <lifthrasiir> (when I say "most", I really mean about 90%)
23:14:28 <boily> fizzie: ask Taneb. he has experience being sci-filly mislead.
23:14:40 <boily> (btw, what is the adverb for sci-fi?)
23:16:05 <ais523> I'm not sure you can make arbitrary noun modifiers into adverbs
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23:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i've seen SFnal used seriously, though that is of course a different abbreviation
23:17:36 <elliott> I had a dream where some asshole joined this channel and /msg'd me multiple times when I was asleep to tell him to take his side in arguments and enforce it with op powers
23:18:24 <oren> sci-fi -> science-fiction -> science-fictionally -> scifixily
23:19:05 <fizzie> boily: Found the bus. I was in fact in the wrong building.
23:21:34 * oerjan hasn't got to the part of the log with elliott's dreams in it yet
23:22:12 <boily> fizzie was in the wrong building. oren drives the bus.
23:22:27 <oren> Hmm... it seems that while the On-yomi generally follow the "read the side" rule, the kun-yomi are all over the place. makes sense i guess since the kun-yomi are just japanese words assigned to a chinese character with a close meaning
23:23:02 <boily> on'yomi are easier than their kunterparts.
23:23:26 <oren> WWWWWW is much easier to type than lololol
23:23:59 <ais523> alternating between two characters is often faster than spamming one
23:24:05 <ais523> lololololololololololololol
23:24:12 <ais523> yep, the ws are more painful
23:24:13 <lifthrasiir> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
23:24:17 <elliott> oerjan: er, I just woke up and said that now.
23:24:29 <oerjan> ais523: you forgot to capitalize the ws too
23:24:40 <ais523> oerjan: assume I have a caps lock key
23:24:58 <boily> my caps lock key was remapped to Esc a long, long time ago.
23:25:07 <ProofTechnique> Also, I hope you have a terrible sense of humor, or you will definitely get RSI.
23:25:10 <oerjan> elliott: i am sorry, i am going to assume your dream was psychic until i've finished the logs hth
23:25:11 <oren> Um, I don't "spam" W I hold it down
23:25:11 <boily> also, as a pianist expert I say lol is easier than www.
23:25:31 <boily> oren: neophyte. plebeian. real men spam w.
23:25:49 <ais523> holding it down's limited by the keyboard repeat rate
23:26:02 <ais523> I guess you could increase the keyboard repeat rate just to spam nicovideo more easily
23:26:09 <lifthrasiir> my keyboard's repeat rate is sufficiently high that I have no problem spamming wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
23:27:12 <oerjan> saved by the syntax bell
23:27:25 <elliott> oerjan: when I "woke up" in the dream I was grouchy but vaguely satisfied by the thought that he's probably the one I should ban instead
23:27:32 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: it's a vampire bat hth
23:28:40 <oerjan> the only word that's an emoticon of itself
23:28:49 <Melvar> That would have a v, would it not?
23:29:20 <oerjan> this owl is from the czernobyl area hth
23:29:38 <boily> TIL a chernobyl owl represents itself when written.
23:30:10 <FireFly> "chernobyl owl" doesn't look like I imagine a chernobyl owl would look like, to me
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23:31:06 <ProofTechnique> Chernobyl Owls are very important in representation theory
23:32:42 <oren> Unicode doesn't appear to have an owl yet
23:37:38 <oren> At least I can say 🔨 💻 💥
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23:38:35 <HackEgo> U+1F528 HAMMER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 a8 UTF-16BE: d83ddd28 Decimal: 🔨 \ 🔨 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+1F4BB PERSONAL COMPUTER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 bb UTF-16BE: d83ddcbb Decimal: &#
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23:38:54 <HackEgo> U+1F4A5 COLLISION SYMBOL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a5 UTF-16BE: d83ddca5 Decimal: 💥 \ 💥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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23:41:07 <oren> Or I can tell a story: 👮 💴 👯 👇 👄 👅
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23:44:39 <oren> I have no idea why "woman with bunny ears" is a legitimate unicode character
23:44:51 <oren> but I think I just used it correctly
23:50:10 <oerjan> elliott: nothing in the logs, i guess your dream must be precognitive then hth
23:50:51 <ais523> oren: emoticons most likely
23:52:04 <oren> 👨 💸 📉 💢 ; 👨 💴 👔 ,💥 📈 -- if only this were true
23:53:01 <ProofTechnique> Stress out about losing money. Buy suit. Explosive growth?
23:54:36 <oren> Unfortunately wearing a suit has virtually no effect on how much money you make...
23:56:46 <ProofTechnique> Though how much money you make can have an effect on how many suits you wear. Or how many suits you make, depending on what side of things you're one.
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