00:05:04 -!- santiago has joined.
00:18:00 -!- santiago has left ("Saliendo").
00:21:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:22:59 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:29:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:32:41 -!- GeekDude has joined.
00:33:37 -!- CADD has joined.
00:36:05 -!- adu has joined.
00:53:53 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:02:08 -!- Lymia has joined.
01:05:05 -!- boily has joined.
01:35:41 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
01:41:10 <fungot> boily: i thought you were wanting to write up a complete stranger based solely on the arguments.
01:41:32 <boily> fungot: no, just post-modern associative chickenny vocabularism.
01:41:32 <fungot> boily: i have a question about erc. do you do
01:41:42 <boily> fungot: no, I don't. what's erc twh?
01:41:43 <fungot> boily: ha, i thought it was to become popular, it seems. :) i was just guessing!!
01:41:53 <fungot> boily: so k is ignored entirely
01:42:08 <boily> fungot: perhaps. «k» isn't really French, you know.
01:51:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:01:42 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OCCIPITAL CHICKEN. OCCIPITAL. OOOOOOCCCCIPPPITAAAÄÄÄL.).
02:02:01 -!- boily has joined.
02:02:23 <boily> going to sleep, but I have the cookies. will send you something canadian shortly.
02:02:29 <boily> yup. lots of work tomorrow!
02:02:39 <quintopia> that i can buy maple leaf cookies at the corner store
02:03:18 <boily> goodnight! dreams of the Great White North!
02:03:44 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit).
02:47:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:08:10 -!- vodkode has joined.
03:43:47 -!- vodkode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:44:19 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:47:21 -!- vodkode has joined.
03:57:00 -!- adu has joined.
04:33:36 -!- gde33 has quit.
04:48:04 -!- Judas has joined.
05:17:38 <zzo38> I cannot easily duplicate schedules on the VCR, I have to rekey them each time. (It is possible to set a repeating schedule, but then it juts repeats forever and doesn't have many other options.)
05:19:10 <zzo38> Actually it is a VCR/DVD combo
05:19:24 <vodkode> I have no idea about the scheduler
05:19:33 <vodkode> I was just curious, because its so rare today to hear about VHS
05:20:20 <zzo38> Well, I still use it, mostly for recording, but also can be used for watching other older movies and so on
05:21:10 <zzo38> If it is a recording I intend to keep then I will use DVD though.
05:23:25 <vodkode> The best editors for VHS were commodore ammigas
05:23:51 <vodkode> I knew a guy that kept one until like 2008 (and used it) for doing transfers and edits on old svhs stuff
05:24:31 <zzo38> I have seen a manual for Video Toaster
05:24:50 <vodkode> well newtek began on the amiga
05:25:09 <vodkode> video toasters, lightwave and the late Aura paint (and currently TVPaint) were all amiga staples
05:25:59 <vodkode> The good old days of 68060 processors that run 25mhz and carried the BBS into the basement
05:26:54 -!- vodkode has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:38:26 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:38:40 <zzo38> O, that's what depression means? OK
05:39:51 -!- vodkode has joined.
06:07:33 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:09:02 -!- vodkode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:09:36 -!- heroux has joined.
06:09:42 -!- vodkode has joined.
06:25:27 * pikhq is pleased, though not surprised, that they're not doubling up on efforts when there's actually something in the wild that does what they want without sucking.
06:28:11 <pikhq> Though sadly (if understandably) their rm does not conform to POSIX.
06:28:35 <pikhq> Did you know: rm -r is required to delete trees of arbitrary depth?
06:29:28 <pikhq> But it only supports deleting file trees of limited depth.
06:29:33 <pikhq> Implicit, but limited depth.
06:29:48 <pikhq> One of a stack overflow or running out of file descriptors will cause it to fail.
06:30:40 <pikhq> POSIX explicitly requires rm, and only rm, to literally deal with directory trees of *unbound* depth.
06:31:26 <pikhq> Though that they fail to meet this requirement is pretty understandable. It's possible to do, even portably and fairly safely, but it's dang *tricky*.
06:31:43 <izabera> also several others i believe
06:32:40 <pikhq> Nah, not really. For all other utils POSIX doesn't require such behavior.
06:33:05 <pikhq> "The rm utility shall be able to descend to arbitrary depths in a file hierarchy, and shall not fail due to path length limitations (unless an operand specified by the user exceeds system limitations)."
06:33:56 <pikhq> This requirement is unique to rm. In part because you can't possibly meet it ordinarily.
06:34:43 <pikhq> rm, it's possible because you do not have to worry about visiting any node repeatedly.
06:36:03 <pikhq> You can literally just hold an fd referring to the top of the tree and do a depth-first search of the hierarchy, deleting everything you see.
06:36:21 <pikhq> And if you get to the bottom just do an fchdir back to the top of the tree.
06:36:41 <pikhq> (this is a pretty *inefficient* implementation, and you can do much better than that, but it's the simplest one that's correct)
06:36:49 <Sgeo> Who runs the Heaven's Gate website?
06:37:03 <pikhq> Everything else you can "merely" deal in quite sizable trees.
06:37:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: A former member of Heaven's Gate.
06:38:52 <Sgeo> It looks pro-Heaven's Gate though, unless they're keeping it up for archival purposes
06:39:02 <pikhq> That's precisely why they're keeping it up.
06:39:48 <pikhq> The current contents of the site are literally an edit to it that was made shortly before the cult committed mass suicide.
06:40:46 <pikhq> Also interesting, apparently that "hard copy editions may be ordered" blurb is still true.
06:44:03 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:48:14 * pikhq may have to write some patches for sbase
06:48:43 <pikhq> ... *after* I finish my current, nasty project.
06:49:07 <pikhq> windows.h for musl-on-Windows.
06:49:20 <pikhq> I said it was nasty. :)
06:49:38 <izabera> didn't even know that musl was ported to windows
06:50:27 <pikhq> Yep. No more dealing with the nastiness of mingw.
06:50:50 <izabera> hey i started programming with mingw :(
06:51:01 <izabera> in high school, with dev-c++
06:51:12 * pikhq finds himself still a little mind-blown at the not-suck fork() implementation
06:52:51 <izabera> lemme tell you something that's windows related: yesterday i wanted to watch a movie w/ my family on my father's computer but the movie didn't fit in my usb pendrive
06:53:06 <izabera> so yeah of course it takes a minute with dd to split it
06:53:14 <izabera> then i went to his computer with windows
06:53:21 <izabera> how the fuck do i join the pieces?
06:53:41 <izabera> i ended up downloading cygwin to have cat -_-
06:54:01 <pikhq> copy /b files... dest
06:54:27 <pikhq> When you have a single file as a destination DOS copy concatenates the files.
06:54:52 <izabera> well first of all that's fucking misleading
06:55:18 <pikhq> Nobody accused DOS of being even remotely reasonable. :)
06:57:37 <pikhq> Though its command prompt is rather more featureful than you might expect.
06:58:09 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:58:09 <pikhq> (they straight-up copied Unix's file redirection syntax)
06:58:24 <pikhq> I won't accuse it of being good.
06:58:39 <pikhq> Indeed I dare say it's the worst CLI that you're likely to come across.
06:59:04 <izabera> i actually tried to use rc as a shell
06:59:14 <pikhq> But it's got a lot of features hidden behind the scenes that people might not expect it to have.
06:59:44 <pikhq> IIRC rc's not bad, but it is gonna confuse the heck out of you if you expect a Bourne-esque shell.
06:59:44 <izabera> the advantage: switch case syntax is decent instead of that crap of case/esac of the bourne shell that we still have today
06:59:52 <izabera> the disadvantage: everything else
07:00:09 <pikhq> And it's also designed around the Plan9 environment, leaving it rather crippled on Unix.
07:00:10 -!- heroux has joined.
07:00:36 <pikhq> e.g. it doesn't have any form of editing... because that's in Plan9's terminal layer.
07:00:44 <pikhq> Hey, it's got a lot of interesting ideas.
07:01:07 <izabera> the only intersting idea is to return a string -_-
07:01:09 <pikhq> And (quite reasonably) everyone's gone out and pilfered the ideas from Plan9 that aren't terrible.
07:01:24 <izabera> this is kill(1) from plan9port
07:01:36 <pikhq> So what's all that interesting about it, is no longer all that interesting because it's just stuff you expect.
07:01:54 <izabera> /bin/kill 317 # izabera 317 07:44 0:00 5104K wait bash
07:01:56 <izabera> /bin/kill 398 # izabera 398 07:46 0:00 3248K wait bash
07:01:58 <izabera> /bin/kill 428 # izabera 428 07:46 0:18 3316K pipe_w bash
07:02:05 <izabera> that kill >>prints<< stuff
07:02:09 <izabera> that you're supposed to pipe to rc
07:02:18 <izabera> which will call the actual kill program
07:02:32 <izabera> i can't believe how dumb it is
07:03:58 <pikhq> Well yeah. Plan9 defeats all your reasonable expectations of behavior, because it's what happens when you take a simple design philosophy, use it as much as possible, and damn expectations of familiarity *or* ease of use. :)
07:04:29 <pikhq> It's an academic research project and boy is it obvious.
07:04:53 <izabera> also i hate their mouse driven interface for everything but that's just me
07:05:36 <izabera> also their wm is fugly but again that's just my opinion
07:06:09 <pikhq> Its GUI is something only a user of pre-Mac GUIs could love.
07:06:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:06:52 <pikhq> As you might expect considering it's a direct descendent of a pre-Mac GUI. :)
07:07:37 -!- heroux has joined.
07:07:54 -!- vodkode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:08:17 <pikhq> Rio's basically the spiritual successor to the Blit terminal (which was a graphics terminal designed by Rob Pike for use with 8th Edition Unix).
07:09:12 <pikhq> So no, I won't pretend Plan9 is a bastion of good design. But by god it's got a lot of interesting bits in it.
07:10:05 <pikhq> Course, a decent number of the *good* interesting bits have become standard parts of Unix systems, though maybe not implemented as well.
07:10:16 <pikhq> Most obviously is /proc.
07:11:19 <pikhq> Oh blah *no* it doesn't.
07:11:34 <pikhq> It's like the one that doesn't, huh.
07:12:11 <pikhq> It's in Solaris, IRIX, Tru64, all the BSDs, Linux, AIX, and QNX, but *not* OS X.
07:12:13 <izabera> you're too used to linux :P
07:13:29 <pikhq> It's in *4.4* BSD no less. Huh.
07:14:25 <pikhq> I suppose NeXT just forked too late to import it and nobody bothered adding it.
07:14:58 <pikhq> So, modern-ish Unices without /proc: OS X, HPUX.
07:15:43 <pikhq> I'm happy calling that a de facto standard considering that neither of those even implement POSIX 2008. :P
07:20:37 <izabera> is there a userland that's strictly posix compliant and nothing more?
07:22:07 <pikhq> Well, no. POSIX omits certain details that you might reasonably expect.
07:22:12 <pikhq> ... such as mount(1).
07:22:39 <izabera> ok let me revert back to userland
07:23:15 <izabera> i'd be interested in a full set of utilities that are exactly posix and nothing more
07:24:05 <pikhq> That too will have some omissions that will shock you, as well as differences in behavior between common implementations and what POSIX says.
07:24:14 <pikhq> DID YOU KNOW: tar is not specified in POSIX 2008.
07:24:47 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
07:25:16 <pikhq> The file format of ar is not at all specified, only its interaction with the C compiler.
07:25:42 <pikhq> If the C compiler reads .zip archives, ar could be a zip archiver for all that POSIX cares.
07:25:48 <pikhq> And zcat is specified, but it does not deal in gzip files.
07:26:32 -!- heroux has joined.
07:26:58 -!- vodkode has joined.
07:28:16 <pikhq> I think those are the most interesting omissions or complete differences in behavior from what you might expect.
07:28:43 <pikhq> There's other utils that are missing of course, but those are mostly ones relevant to system administration but not necessarily normal use.
07:29:05 <pikhq> Or ones that are pretty obviously not standard utils but just common on distros, like md5sum. :)
07:30:15 <pikhq> What I find really bizarre is some of the utils that POSIX *does* specify even though it has no real point in doing so.
07:30:29 <pikhq> Like, it specifies SCCS.
07:30:41 <pikhq> You may know that as the predecessor to the predecessor of CVS.
07:31:08 <pikhq> But POSIX does not need to specify it, now does it?
07:31:25 <pikhq> Keeping in mind that they *don't specify tar anymore*.
07:31:26 <izabera> that standard is more descriptive than prescriptive
07:31:40 <pikhq> (yes, "anymore". They *used to*.)
07:32:26 <pikhq> Yes, but it also mostly subsets what it describes to what's got a point in being described, rather than describing what happens to be common to all Unices.
07:33:30 -!- Patashu has joined.
07:34:25 <pikhq> ... Hence why it has interesting bits like "the only file that POSIX requires to exist is /dev/null".
07:35:45 <pikhq> "//C:\POSIX\sh" would be a 100% conformant if bizarre path for the shell to be at.
07:36:19 <izabera> posix requires /dev/zero /dev/null /dev/full and /dev/tty
07:36:31 <pikhq> Oh, derp so it does. I missed a couple.
07:36:52 <pikhq> /dev/null is the memorable one to me for some reason. Go figure.
07:37:36 <pikhq> And come to think of it, I doubt you can get away with atypical path separators even in //.
07:40:09 <pikhq> Oh, nope, that's still allowed.
07:40:19 <pikhq> "If a pathname begins with two successive <slash> characters, the first component following the leading <slash> characters may be interpreted in an implementation-defined manner, although more than two leading <slash> characters shall be treated as a single <slash> character."
07:40:57 <pikhq> But //C:\POSIX/bin\sh wouldn't really work. Hrm.
07:42:59 <izabera> `` dirname //////////foo/bar
07:43:11 * izabera was expecting something else
07:43:36 <pikhq> But that's the exact algorithm specified in POSIX.
07:44:54 <izabera> Since the meaning of the leading "//" is implementation-defined, dirname("//foo) may return either "//" or '/' (but nothing else).
07:45:39 <pikhq> Note that it's the meaning of *precisely two* slashes that's implementation-defined.
07:46:07 <pikhq> Three or more slashes is the same as /
07:46:09 <izabera> did you know that head -c is not posix
07:46:39 <izabera> since the closest thing i can think of is a rather inefficient hack with dd
07:49:34 -!- zadock has joined.
08:00:00 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
08:00:05 <izabera> it's a device that returns an error when you try to write to it
08:30:16 <Taneb> I've just realised that enigmatic means like an enigma
08:30:21 <Taneb> How did I miss that
08:36:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:41:56 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
08:43:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/Lachine/Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing/' wisdom/boily
08:43:51 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
08:45:01 * oerjan suddenly wonders what's really in those cookies
08:46:09 <oerjan> <quintopia> that i can buy maple leaf cookies at the corner store <-- whoops
08:46:21 <oerjan> another dealing empire crushed
08:46:25 <shachaf> i am in possession of some p. bad cookies
08:46:39 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get them from kmc
08:46:57 <shachaf> i would expect better quality cookies from kmc
08:47:52 <oerjan> i've been making drugz jokes since i entered the channel, pay attention.
08:49:08 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
08:49:21 <shachaf> amortization is the process of becoming immortal, right?
08:50:03 <oerjan> or possibly the opposite.
08:50:57 <oerjan> ironically since i added that, whenever i've needed the word either HackEgo has been down or i actually managed to remember it.
08:51:28 <oerjan> honestly, i cannot entirely remember. except that i remembered it once.
08:52:04 <oerjan> "From (the stem of) Middle French amortir (“to bring to death”), probably from Late Latin *admortīre, from Latin ad + mortem."
08:59:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:03:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:07:49 -!- shikhin has joined.
09:10:54 <mroman> What's actually the defintion of premature death?
09:11:36 <mroman> You die sooner than you should've based on...?
09:11:59 <Jafet> Death before maturity
09:12:28 <Jafet> Or perhaps that's immature death
09:18:03 -!- vodkode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:20:09 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
09:20:09 -!- Patashu_ has joined.
09:25:39 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:26:02 -!- ^v has joined.
09:32:59 <mroman> Jafet: apparentely "sitting" is linked to 9% of premature death.
09:33:19 <mroman> which suggests that if you didn't sit that long you wouldn't have died a premature death
09:33:29 <mroman> which probably means you've lived another two years or something?
09:33:54 <mroman> by that definition every death is premature because I'm sure you could've always lived a little bit healthier than you did
09:34:20 <mroman> death by accidents are probably premature anyway as well.
09:34:31 <mroman> since you die before you should've died.
09:34:59 <mroman> unless you believe in destiny and that it was always clear that you'll die that way then it's probably not premature but preprogrammed
09:36:17 <mroman> "Years of potential life lost (YPLL) or potential years of life lost (PYLL), is an estimate of the average years a person would have lived if he or she had not died prematurely."
09:46:15 <Taneb> mroman, I think death from old age or treatable illness or injury is not counted as premature?
09:48:31 <mroman> How do you die by "old age"?
09:48:49 <mroman> Heart suddenly stops? Brain suddently stops?
09:49:05 <mroman> maybe you could've slown down the aging process somehow
09:49:08 <mroman> by eating an apple a day
09:53:26 <mroman> Taneb: did you mean "untreatable illnesses"?
09:53:35 <mroman> dieing of an illness that can be treated could be seen as premature
10:23:09 -!- boily has joined.
10:31:13 <Taneb> `run echo "thants" > wisdom/thanks\ ants
10:32:34 <boily> Tanelle! (or is it Thanksanebelle?)
10:33:04 <oerjan> boily: only when he's cosplaying
10:34:37 <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times
10:34:44 <boily> `` grep -FInr 'sprø' wisdom/*
10:34:47 <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:35:05 <shachaf> Taneb: but now you are cosplaining
10:35:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf:1:shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
10:36:44 <boily> shachaf: shellochellof. you sly fiend!
10:36:56 <Taneb> Anyway I have been watching Look Around You again
10:37:20 -!- CADD has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:38:05 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:38:15 <HackEgo> 1239) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaing
10:38:28 <Taneb> oerjan, can we edit that so it looks like I didn't make that typo in the second line?
10:38:55 <oerjan> maybe if you say the corrected version literally.
10:39:21 <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:39:35 <shachaf> now we gotta put an ellipsis in
10:39:47 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:39:53 <oerjan> shachaf: way ahead of you
10:40:11 <shachaf> oerjan: the timestamps indicate otherwise hth
10:40:18 <HackEgo> 1239) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
10:41:00 <int-e> "I'm a Taneb. That's what they look like. The movie's going to be released in Autumn."
10:41:20 <oerjan> Taneb: did you take a picture of your non-cosplayingness
10:41:35 <oerjan> so we can judge for ourselves
10:42:26 <Taneb> oerjan, not a very good one
10:42:32 <Taneb> Maybe someone else did
10:43:09 <shachaf> oerjan: is your good twin named o⃥rjan by any chance twh
10:43:30 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
10:43:32 <oerjan> i thought this had been made clear.
10:43:52 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+20E5 COMBINING REVERSE SOLIDUS OVERLAY]
10:46:20 <Taneb> oerjan, what sort of papers does your good twin publish?
10:46:58 <shachaf> apparently papers about LSD for alcoholism: http://jop.sagepub.com/content/26/7/994.short
10:47:27 <shachaf> by your pal, oerjan johansen
10:47:48 <Taneb> oerjan, are they like maths papers?
10:47:57 <Taneb> Because maths papers are like my favourite kind of paper
10:48:01 <oerjan> ah pål-ørjan, my old nemesis
10:48:44 <shachaf> Taneb: my usage is that e.g. geometry and topology are maths, which is to say that e.g. topology is a math
10:49:13 <Taneb> shachaf, I agree emotionally but not pedantically with that usage
10:49:30 <oerjan> Taneb: he's been slacking off on the mathy papering for a decade, though
10:50:10 <shachaf> whoa, a paper by ørjan on ergodic theory
10:51:20 <shachaf> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%C3%B8rjan+johansen
10:51:48 <shachaf> Over 30 million psychedelic users in the United States
10:53:05 <Taneb> Maybe one day I'll write a maths paper
10:53:40 <shachaf> you should write a maths paper with your pål ørjan
10:54:03 <oerjan> i doubt he'd understand it
10:55:22 <Taneb> Unfortunately I am just a little undergraduate
10:56:18 <shachaf> Taneb: does that stop you from writing maths papers
10:56:27 <Taneb> shachaf, not in of itself
10:56:43 <Taneb> But I do not know as much maths as some people who used to be undergraduates but then graduated!
10:57:44 <shachaf> how many maths do you know
10:59:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
11:00:24 <oerjan> wait should it be tudom or not
11:03:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:04:52 <Taneb> What would I even write a paper about
11:11:20 <oerjan> a tanebvention of course
11:19:17 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
11:20:25 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
11:20:42 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
11:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you've invented a lot of things since last i checked
11:21:21 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's not something I can help
11:21:40 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
11:21:59 <boily> after persistence hth
11:22:05 <Taneb> Couple of years back
11:22:37 <Taneb> I was thinking about things that are topologically equivalent to a torus, and lo and behold I discovered the torus
11:24:04 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:24:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SOPRANO CHICKEN).
11:26:15 -!- shikhin has joined.
11:26:25 -!- shikhin has quit (Client Quit).
11:27:31 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
11:27:53 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
11:29:02 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
11:29:52 -!- shikhin has joined.
11:33:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
11:39:53 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:45:07 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:46:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:29:28 -!- roasted42 has joined.
12:30:00 -!- roasted42 has quit (Changing host).
12:30:00 -!- roasted42 has joined.
12:30:00 -!- roasted42 has changed nick to TheM4ch1n3.
12:35:14 -!- TheM4ch1n3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:45:53 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:47:37 -!- heroux has joined.
12:50:59 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:22:10 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
13:32:45 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:33:14 -!- ^v has joined.
13:37:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lazy K]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42241&oldid=20133 * 79.247.175.208 * (-8) Fixed specification link
13:38:29 -!- cpressey has joined.
13:41:33 -!- shikhin has joined.
13:51:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
14:02:18 -!- `^_^v has joined.
14:17:47 <cpressey> "'Arrows' is a really stupid name because in saying what an arrow is I'm forced to use the word 'arrow' in two diferent senses, one for Hughes meaning and one for the usual meaning from category theory. It's like deciding that the prime numbers bigger than 20 are interesting for some reason and then choosing to give them a name, 'the primes'."
14:26:33 <cpressey> maybe i could have invented monads, with enough pressure to refactor some functional code that builds and extracts pairs everywhere, but i probably wouldn't have called them monads
14:27:08 <cpressey> ( http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html )
14:27:08 <idris-bot> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html )<EOF>
14:27:33 <cpressey> good to know you're paying attention
14:28:14 <cpressey> and always good to be reminded of the fact that you aren't ever safe starting a msg with a non-alphanumeric character when bots is around
14:33:53 -!- GeekDude has joined.
14:43:08 <oren> hmm, that function bind is only necessary becuase you can't just use a global variable that f and g bpth modify
14:44:12 <oren> (like, for example, an output stream)
14:44:30 <cpressey> uhhh yes well, functional programming, you see, without side-effects, you see, referentially transparent and all that, you see
14:45:11 <cpressey> i know some people like the idea of putting monads in impure languages like Lisp and Python, but i personally do not see the point of that
14:46:35 <oren> I see. this bind thing is the way to sort of have the benefits of a global variable (a piece of data that follows "alongside" the processing) without the issue of statefulness
14:46:39 <mroman> cpressey: Mind you that an arrow is also an everyday object in medival times.
14:47:13 <mroman> Ideally you math guys would have a structure called "Bow" as well
14:47:35 <oren> that would be the sine function
14:48:06 <cpressey> don't know if there's a bow, but there are definitely sheafs
14:48:48 <oren> err, no, the chord function*** comes from a function named after a bowstring
14:49:09 <oren> the sine function is half of it
14:50:36 <oren> It is really stupid that they have a picture of a surfer on my grade 11 math text, but didn't use these metaphors for trigonometry
14:51:21 <oren> a picture of a surfer belongs on Fluid Dynamics 101, not trigonometry
14:52:16 <cpressey> which makes students like trig more, because it is cool
14:52:32 <cpressey> (i assume this is the logic, anyway)
14:53:02 <oren> Yeah, I guess an Indian chariot-archer would be too violent or some crap
15:00:04 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:11:21 -!- bb010g has joined.
15:22:00 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:24:57 <cpressey> I would have called them BOBULANCES
15:25:35 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
15:25:53 -!- shikhin has joined.
15:26:18 <cpressey> i guess that leaves $ and % and # and + and = free
15:27:00 <cpressey> although, dare I point out that EgoBot and blsqbot are up in each other's faces there
15:27:35 <Melvar> Way back when I started idris-bot it used ‣ I think, because that was highly unlikely to get in the way.
15:29:16 <int-e> / would be another good prefix.
15:30:40 <cpressey> very tempting to try to discover what the idris language is like just by getting in an extended conversation with idris-bot
15:31:13 <Melvar> That could get very frustrating very fast.
15:32:53 -!- oren has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
15:33:51 <zzo38> Another way to learn it is to read the documentation and to look at other programs written using it.
15:36:29 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)).
15:37:29 <Melvar> Of the latter, there aren’t many yet, and a number of those that exist have probably bitrotted.
15:38:43 <cpressey> do the authors of idris consider it to be an esolang?
15:39:09 <cpressey> is it so hard for me to /join #idris if i want to talk to a bot that talks idris?
15:39:14 <cpressey> sometimes i just don't understand IRC.
15:42:21 <Melvar> I believe Sgeo is the one who invited it, and by extension me, since I had to come keep an eye on the unreliable little thing.
15:43:41 <Melvar> And then I stayed because there are occasionally quite interesting things discussed here. ∑:3
15:48:13 -!- GeekDude has joined.
15:48:18 <cpressey> Anyone implemented deadfish in it yet?
15:48:59 <Melvar> No, but WhiteSpace IIRC, and IIRC the originator of Idris is the inventor of WhiteSpace.
15:53:52 <zzo38> We can see how many things Deadfish is implemented in so far
15:56:43 <zzo38> The shotest one seems to be the one in AWK
15:56:57 <zzo38> I don't know, if you can implement one for Atari VCS?
16:02:22 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Neg Bits32
16:03:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:50 <idris-bot> Prelude.Basics.the : (a : Type) -> a -> a
16:07:00 <cpressey> oh dear. can you write Agda-style proofputations in this one, too?
16:07:43 <Melvar> It has full dependent types, yes.
16:08:11 <Melvar> It emphatically does not have Agda’s any-unicode mixfix syntax.
16:09:48 <cpressey> dare i ask what a proof that + is associative might look like
16:10:28 <cpressey> i guess probably not too different from how it looks in agda
16:10:37 <Melvar> > :printdef plusAssociative
16:10:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
16:10:43 <Melvar> ( :printdef plusAssociative
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative : (left : Nat) -> (centre : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> left + (centre + right) = left + centre + right
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative 0 centre right = Refl
16:10:43 <idris-bot> plusAssociative (S left) centre right = let inductiveHypothesis = plusAssociative left centre right in plusAssociativeStepCase left
16:11:18 <cpressey> yeah, more or less how i've seen it look in agda
16:11:53 <cpressey> if only because inductiveHypothesis and plusAssociativeStepCase are spelled out
16:15:22 <Melvar> https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris-dev/blob/master/libs/prelude/Prelude/Nat.idr#L382-L387 That stuff should probably get cleaned up, since we don’t need to use proof mode for intelligent rewriting anymore.
16:15:35 <cpressey> ( :printdef plusAssociativeStepCase
16:15:35 <idris-bot> plusAssociativeStepCase : (left : Nat) ->
16:15:35 <idris-bot> (centre : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> (left + (centre + right) = left + centre + right) -> S (plus left (plus centre right)) = S (plus (plus left centre) right)
16:15:35 <idris-bot> plusAssociativeStepCase = \left => \centre => \right => \inductiveHypothesis => let {rewrite_rule109} = inductiveHypothesis in replace rewrite_rule Refl
16:16:15 <cpressey> it's working backwards from smth
16:16:16 <Melvar> cpressey: That’s vaguely inaccurate since it’s generated from a short tactic script.
16:16:57 <Melvar> The {rewrite_rule109} is how gensyms come out.
16:17:03 <cpressey> me, whenever i write a program, i make sure to name all my functions "function_001", "function_002", etc
16:17:55 <cpressey> so, previously, i lied. i wouldn't have called monads bobulances. i would've called them abstraction_0764's.
16:18:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
16:18:03 <idris-bot> Language.Reflection.MN : Int -> String -> TTName
16:18:21 <Melvar> ( MN 109 "rewrite_rule"
16:18:41 <Melvar> That’s probably the representation of that variable.
16:18:49 <ais523> cpressey: I was reading "A Rainy Sunday Afternoon", I thought the concept was very amusing, but was also disappointed that it wasn't written by hand
16:19:14 <cpressey> ais523: I'm glad you found it amusing.
16:19:26 <cpressey> Asking for something like that to be hand-written is maybe asking a little much
16:19:44 -!- vodkode has joined.
16:20:03 <cpressey> Oh wait, that's the... card game one. OK, yeah. I can see your disappointment more clearly
16:20:07 <ais523> and yet, people genuinely do play such games
16:20:11 -!- Koen_ has joined.
16:20:48 <cpressey> (Originally I thought you meant "Hope and Remembrance". When you get to be my age, you can't keep your own generated novels straight)
16:20:51 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:21:15 <ais523> I don't think I've ever generated a novel
16:21:48 -!- gde33 has joined.
16:21:49 <cpressey> ais523: you are very welcome to spend November trying. it's fun. https://github.com/dariusk/NaNoGenMo-2014/
16:22:25 <ais523> but November is the /dev/null/nethack tournament
16:23:06 <cpressey> November is rather overloaded with activities, I agree
16:23:49 <cpressey> you are of course welcome to try, any time of year
16:24:07 <cpressey> as with writing one by hand etc
16:25:28 -!- vodkode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:26:29 <cpressey> ais523: "A Rainy Sunday Afternoon" was inspired by a mention of Arnold Rimmer's _Risk_ Logbook, which was mentioned in response to a novel about the Towers of Hanoi
16:41:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:41:09 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
16:41:34 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
16:41:36 <cpressey> i should probably curate those a bit better, actually put them on my site instead of gist, and link to the nanogeno issues that they came from
16:41:42 <Melvar> ( the (() -> ()) $ %runTactics (do { intro (Just (MN 109 "rewrite_rule")); fill (Var (MN 109 "rewrite_rule")); solve})
16:41:42 <idris-bot> When elaborating argument x to function Prelude.Basics.the:
16:41:42 <idris-bot> No such variable Language.Reflection.Tactical.Tactical
16:42:13 <cpressey> ais523: i'm also nominally working on a "real" story generator, but it's going very slowly
16:42:23 <cpressey> partly an excuse to read tvtropes a lot :)
16:42:41 <ais523> is the idea that you feed the whole of tvtropes to a computer
16:42:50 <ais523> and end up with a coherent, if very clichéd, story?
16:46:17 <zzo38> I prefer All The Tropes rather than TV Tropes, but, you can try to see what it is will be
16:47:13 <cpressey> I hadn't heard of that one before. I'll look at it.
16:47:32 <zzo38> Well, I have a account on All The Tropes; I don't have any on TV Tropes
16:47:53 <cpressey> "feed" isn't quite the right word because they need a lot of "premasticating" before you can get them into an algorithm, but, yes, that's where they eventually end up (and I might have object classes with the same names as TVTropes pages)
16:48:57 -!- zadock has joined.
16:50:02 -!- Shikhin has joined.
16:50:02 -!- Shikhin has quit (Excess Flood).
16:50:04 <zzo38> My FOAF includes a link to my All The Tropes user page
16:50:46 <FireFly> ais523, cpressey: where do I find "a rainy sunday afternoon"? Google isn't helpful in this case
16:51:05 <ais523> https://gist.github.com/cpressey/1b9f6d8c66cc1f736aba
16:51:32 <ais523> anyway, here's a problem I'm currently having in Real Life: my bank won't let me move money around between my accounts because I don't have ID
16:51:33 <cpressey> FireFly: what ais523 said. also, http://catseye.tc/node/Text
16:52:04 <ais523> all they accept is a passport (which I don't have), driving license (which I don't have), or one very specific tax form (which I think is the PAYE Coding Notice)
16:52:39 <ais523> but the government's taxation department say that normally they'll just send you a P60 form instead, and the bank doesn't accept P60s
16:52:41 <cpressey> even though you are unquestionably the holder of both accounts
16:53:08 <ais523> the bank seems to be under the assumption that the coding notice gets sent to everone
16:53:30 <FireFly> Although I have to admit I skipped over parts of it
16:53:59 <cpressey> FireFly: a not uncommon occurrence with computer-generated 50k-word novels
16:54:08 <ais523> (that said, I seem to be missing last year's P60 too, possibly because it's only sent if you happen to be employed on 5 April specifically; you get a P45 instead otherwise)
16:54:57 -!- Shikhin has joined.
16:54:59 <cpressey> ais523: are you able to write yourself a cheque from one account, and deposit it (no wait, what do they say here... pay it in?) into the other account?
16:55:21 <ais523> cheques exist here, but they aren't widely used
16:55:47 <ais523> in particular, I haven't used them often enough to be given a chequebook, meaning that if I needed to give someone a cheque, I'd need to go to the bank and ask them to write it for me
16:55:52 <ais523> which runs into the same problem as before
16:56:31 <cpressey> bah. actually, i'm slightly amazed that you've managed to obtain employment without a passport
16:56:38 <ais523> (also, the tax year ends in 9 days, meaning any solution to this problem would need to be by then or it'll count towards the wrong year's tax allowance)
16:56:46 <ais523> they said an expired passport was sufficient to prove I was British
16:57:00 <ais523> and I did have one of those
16:57:13 <ais523> (haven't any more, I decided to exchange it for a new passport to avoid such problems in the future, but that takes over 3 weeks)
16:57:46 -!- Shikhin has quit (Excess Flood).
16:58:15 <FireFly> Hm, you don't have any kind of identity card over there?
16:58:44 <FireFly> Something the size of a driver's license without granting a driver's license
16:58:50 <ais523> opt-in identity cards exist, but most aren't considered sufficiently official
16:58:58 <zzo38> In my area there is "BCID", which is like a driving license, except that it isn't a driving license.
16:59:10 <ais523> a common workaround is to apply for a "I'm planning to learn to drive" provisional license, and then not learn to drive
16:59:26 <FireFly> We have national identity cards, and the driving license works as a substitute for it
16:59:55 <Koen_> works the same here
17:00:11 <ais523> anyway, the advice is to carry ID if you're not a citizen of the country you're in (Brit abroad, or foreigner in Britain), but for a Brit in Britain, you don't need ID most of the time
17:00:11 <Koen_> except the driving license isn't official enough for everything
17:00:20 <Koen_> you can vote with a driving license, but you can't withdraw money
17:00:23 <cpressey> I've lived in far too many places
17:00:47 <cpressey> I've had a BC driver's license, an Illinois driver's license, but not a UK driver's license.
17:01:18 <cpressey> And now that information is permanently on the public Internet, but I don't suppose it matters.
17:01:32 <ais523> ah right, you're in the UK right now
17:01:36 <ais523> according to CTCP TIME
17:01:40 <ais523> or somewhere else in UTC+0
17:01:50 <zzo38> You can see my FOAF file on http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl
17:02:00 <ais523> I think the UK allows foreign driver's licenses under some circumstances
17:02:08 <zzo38> I might add more later on
17:02:09 <cpressey> sadly, yes, right now I am barely a stone's throw from Trafalgar Square
17:02:25 <ais523> I've decided that there's not much point in trying to hide what country or even city you're in
17:02:31 <ais523> your IP is shown too many places
17:02:37 * Koen_ 's crappy client doesn't do ctcps
17:03:31 <zzo38> Koen_: It can respond to VERSION and TIME requests from me though
17:03:36 <ais523> Koen_: I received one from you
17:03:39 <ais523> maybe it just didn't show the response?
17:04:05 <Koen_> I didn't receive the notification from zzo38 either
17:04:06 <zzo38> If you can enter control characters then you should be able to use it.
17:04:30 <ais523> zzo38: hardly anyone sends ctcps by manually typing the control-A
17:04:42 <ais523> I've done it in the past, but it's much more common to use a specific CTCP feature of a client
17:04:50 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I do, because that's the only way my client has to send.
17:04:58 <zzo38> For replying it can do it automatically though.
17:05:41 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:05:50 <FireFly> PHP? Interesting choice of language for implementing an IRC client
17:06:04 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Guest67562.
17:06:40 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, but I couldn't figure out how to do internet connection properly with C
17:08:11 -!- Guest67562 has changed nick to shikhout.
17:08:19 <zzo38> I also haven't implemented split-screen or anything like that so far
17:08:21 -!- shikhout has quit (Changing host).
17:08:21 -!- shikhout has joined.
17:08:59 <Koen_> last year I was asked to do an instant messaging service in C using signals
17:09:27 <cpressey> < ais523> zzo38: hardly anyone sends ctcps by manually typing the control-A
17:09:44 -!- shikhout has quit (Client Quit).
17:09:44 <cpressey> yes but if there's a channel where you're going to find people wanting to... you could do worse than #esoteric
17:09:57 <ais523> cpressey: right, and I know from the past that zzo38 /does/ send the control-As manually
17:10:00 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:10:06 <ais523> I just thought I'd clarify how most clients work
17:10:12 <Koen_> depending on the OS, the signals lost ranged from 1% to 90% so everything had to be very redundant but also stutter-proof
17:10:24 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Guest91957.
17:10:55 <zzo38> I have seen other IRC clients but I don't like it much therefore I implemented my own one.
17:11:25 -!- Guest91957 has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:41 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
17:11:54 <zzo38> With syntax highlighting and other stuff
17:12:00 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Changing host).
17:12:00 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
17:12:04 <zzo38> And macros indicated by function keys
17:12:10 <zzo38> And password masking
17:12:45 <Koen_> syntax highlighting? __english__ syntax?
17:13:23 <zzo38> If your input starts with "PASS " then everything typed after that on the same line will display as asterisks, and furthermore it won't save that line into the history of inputs.
17:13:53 <zzo38> Why would it highlight English syntax?
17:14:35 <cpressey> zzo38: what language did you write it in?
17:14:54 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Client Quit).
17:15:10 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:15:10 -!- shikhin has quit (Changing host).
17:15:10 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:15:37 <zzo38> cpressey: What language did I write what in?
17:15:53 <cpressey> zzo38: what language did you write your IRC client in?
17:16:09 <zzo38> I wrote it in PHP, because I could not figure out how to do it with C.
17:16:31 <cpressey> that was my 3rd guess (after FORTH and C)
17:17:05 <cpressey> Sadly, if I were to write one, I would probably do it in Python
17:17:55 <cpressey> ...maybe Javascript except I know I wouldn't be able to bring myself to use node.js for something that signficant
17:18:30 <FireFly> I've been meaning to write a somewhat-serious client for myself
17:19:11 -!- shikhin has quit (Client Quit).
17:19:18 <zzo38> Do you also not like the other IRC clients too?
17:19:26 <cpressey> the awful bit about an IRC client would be the async terminal (or GUI) I/O versus the network I/O, wouldn't it
17:19:34 <cpressey> maybe node.js wouldn't be *that* bad actually
17:19:45 <FireFly> I think node.js wouldn't be too bad
17:20:23 <cpressey> I don't mind weechat, I don't mind irssi, but I hate their build systems
17:20:24 <zzo38> cpressey: It is what I thought too, but I was able to figure out how to do that in PHP
17:20:32 <cpressey> ok, "hate" is too strong a work
17:20:40 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:21:10 <FireFly> weechat works decently, but I don't like how the plugin system seems to be very fragile (at least the little I've looked at it)
17:21:14 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you know I am working on a Z-machine implementation for Famicom?
17:21:29 -!- shikhin has quit (Client Quit).
17:21:43 -!- shikhin has joined.
17:22:18 <cpressey> zzo38: No, I didn't know that. Cool.
17:22:41 <cpressey> I think I had a 2nd-hand Famicom once... without a proper power supply... I don't remember if I ever got it working.
17:23:10 <zzo38> I already wrote ZORKMID in C, which is a Z-machine debugger, therefore I can see what instructions Zork I executes before the first READ, as well as seeing various other things
17:23:42 <zzo38> In case you are interested, here is that list of instructions: http://sprunge.us/KMhj
17:23:59 <zzo38> The * is the debugger prompt and P displays this list; also O will clear the list
17:24:20 <zzo38> And then there are other commands too, such as u for unassemble, d for dump, q for quit, r for restart, etc
17:25:37 <zzo38> I am working on a compiler to target Z-machine too actually, which is actually mainly an assembler but with extensions and macros and more optimizations.
17:26:00 <zzo38> Actually, oerjan helped me to optimize the text packing.
17:26:59 <cpressey> i could never wrap my head around the Z-machine. i mean, i'm sure it's possible, but all those clever little packed things. brrrr
17:27:38 <cpressey> I fixed a who-knows-how-old-it-was bug in Zplet, though
17:28:29 <cpressey> it had to do with font size versus size of the applet
17:28:57 <cpressey> https://github.com/XelaRellum/ZPlet/pull/3 if you *really* care
17:30:02 <ais523> huh, the tax office's phone lines are still open
17:30:13 <ais523> I'm going home to get some documents, then phone them
17:30:17 -!- ais523 has quit.
17:30:56 <zzo38> Have you seen my All The Tropes user page?
17:31:19 <zzo38> You can also look at my FOAF which can be downloaded from: http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl
17:31:53 <cpressey> first FOAF I've ever seen with gopher:// in it
17:32:42 <zzo38> It has telnet:// in it too; have you seen other FOAFs with telnet:// in it? Probably for ones that mention MUDs it might be in there I suppose
17:32:55 <cpressey> to be fair i have not seen many FOAFs at all
17:34:08 <zzo38> I also wrote a SQLite extension that can parse this and other RDF Turtle files. It turns out to be smaller than Serd, and as far as I know the only one that has a API that is accessed from SQL.
17:34:21 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:34:23 <zzo38> FireFly: Well, now you know!
17:35:46 <zzo38> Although some people write FOAFs in XML instead
17:35:57 <zzo38> I used Turtle to write mine though.
17:37:43 <quintopia> apparently wordpress supports foaf
17:38:16 <zzo38> I don't know, but I think I have read that too
17:55:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:56:04 <ais523> so the tax department's phone line says the same thing as their website
17:56:18 <ais523> which is that there's no need to worry or do anything if they've sent you a tax code change
17:56:42 <ais523> the problem is, my tax code /hasn't/ changed and I need a tax code change form anyway because my bank are making silly requests
17:56:46 <ais523> I guess I just complain to the bank
18:02:26 -!- zadock has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:08:11 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
18:11:12 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
18:12:35 -!- clrg has joined.
18:15:22 -!- zadock has joined.
18:17:32 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
18:29:18 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
18:30:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
18:30:44 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
18:30:58 <Koen_> yes, complaining to the bank always work *ahem*
18:31:38 <Koen_> plus, they always call back when you reach their answering machine even though you called during their office hours
18:41:04 -!- clrg has left ("Saliendo").
18:46:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:47:02 <zzo38> I read about aspect-oriented programming, now I think perhaps RULECARD should be designed with something similar to aspect-oriented programming as one of its features.
18:48:33 -!- heroux has joined.
18:51:57 <HackEgo> [U+1F006 MAHJONG TILE WHITE DRAGON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1F005 MAHJONG TILE GREEN DRAGON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1F004 MAHJONG TILE RED DRAGON]
18:53:59 -!- Judas has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:56:10 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
19:00:04 <zzo38> But in Magic: the Gathering, there is triggers on stack, "instead of" abilities, effects that temporarily or permanently change other effects and objects, etc
19:00:23 <ais523> the white dragon tile is hilarious
19:00:30 <ais523> because the tiles themselves are also white
19:00:40 <ais523> so the joke is, they leave the tile blank because it's a white dragon on a white background
19:01:11 <zzo38> Also called "haku", yes it is a blank tile, although some sets have a border
19:01:48 <zzo38> The glass haku tiles in a Washizu set will be the same on both sides even.
19:03:42 <coppro> ais523: In Chinese sets, usually there's a frame to represent the dragon
19:03:58 <coppro> in Japenese sets, though, they actually leave them blank
19:04:10 <ais523> right, I know it's not always blank
19:04:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:04:49 <coppro> there are sets of black tiles as well, but these pose a problem as they are often not two-toned, so if they don't put some sort of marker (usually a dot in Japanese sets) to indicate the white dragon, it is indistinguishable face up and face down
19:05:17 <coppro> which means you sometimes have to stand it on its end to distinguish it, and on top of that, in a heavily played set, it will be worn differently since it sees equal wear on both sides
19:07:22 <zzo38> Yes, but a proper set should have the back a different color than the front (the back can be brown or green for non-magnetic tiles, or it is blue or pink for magnetic tiles, I think)
19:08:33 <coppro> does anyone have terminal emulator suggestions?
19:08:37 <coppro> configuring urxvt is shit
19:08:42 <coppro> konsole doesn't handle astral characters correctly
19:08:47 <zzo38> Still the glass haku tiles in Washizu sets are going to be the same on both sides, but in that case it doesn't matter because you are supposed to be allowed to look at opponent's glass tiles.
19:09:52 <zzo38> coppro: Can't you use xterm?
19:11:06 <coppro> zzo38: perhaps? does it support full unicode correctly and is it a pain in the ass to configure?
19:14:30 <zzo38> When working on Linux I generally use Linux VC with Unicode turned off
19:17:02 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
19:17:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:17:09 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
19:19:35 -!- MDude has joined.
19:20:11 <oerjan> now with the seeping bass again :(
19:22:49 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
19:22:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:22:52 <int-e> Not a very treble experience.
19:23:43 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
19:24:28 <oerjan> i think a pun needs the other word to exist, int-e
19:25:13 <int-e> I guess the editing distance is a bit too big.
19:26:01 <oerjan> the web irc font confuses my swatting
19:27:31 <shachaf> oerjan: when you're serious you should try a sharper swatter like "-----♯♯♯" hth
19:27:58 <oerjan> there is only One True Swatter
19:33:57 <Melvar> < coppro> konsole doesn't handle astral characters correctly – Really? What does it do with them?
19:35:27 <ais523> coppro: I use gnome-terminal as my terminal but I wouldn't really recommend it
19:38:08 <oerjan> girl genius is back to its usual unschedule
19:39:40 <oerjan> int-e: i think it's a bit more than 1 hour off
19:41:08 <oerjan> i distinctly recall being able to mostly expect an update to be ready around 6-7 AM my time in previous years
19:41:21 <oerjan> and this occasionally still happens.
19:44:13 <oerjan> sounds like lewie has found a life philosophy, i wonder if that's what he's been doing since he came back to black mountain
19:51:03 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
19:51:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:51:16 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
19:53:03 <oerjan> it seems that breaking out a tab into its own window gets IE confused about the rest of them...
19:53:21 <ais523> Firefox seems to have a bug where the tabs are in the wrong order
19:53:34 <ais523> as in, the order they're arranged at the top of the screen is different from the order ctrl-pgdn cycles through htem
19:53:40 <ais523> and trying to rearrange them causes some of them to overlap
19:56:41 -!- nycs has joined.
19:58:32 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:59:41 -!- vodkode_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:00:31 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v.
20:03:37 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:23:53 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:28:33 -!- adu has joined.
20:56:22 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:56:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Yoob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42242&oldid=31859 * 5.29.33.254 * (+38)
21:00:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:01:32 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:01:33 <Sgeo_> Would it be ethical for me to use Mechanical Turk for something?
21:02:11 <ais523> depends on what that thing is, surely
21:02:27 <ais523> unless you think all uses of mechanical turk are unethical due to not paying the users enough
21:02:38 <ais523> one problem is, that the unethical uses are likely to be willing to pay more per person than the ethical ones
21:02:40 -!- `^_^v has joined.
21:02:42 <ais523> so they may price the ethical ones out of the market
21:03:35 <ais523> incidentally, it turns out that one of the main reasons that Google and Yahoo! and friends are trying push people to use two-factor auth for their accounts (tying them to cellphones) is to prevent spam automated signups, because most spambots don't have cellphones
21:03:57 <ais523> (and allegedly, the price of a Google account on the black market is approximately the same as that of the cheapest available SIM cards)
21:04:02 <Sgeo_> Thing I had in mind is just a thing for personal use (finding YouTube videos to match with my collection of MIDIs), but I'm looking at MTurk and it seems to pay out pennies, which seems a bit cheap
21:05:13 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:07:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:08:33 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
21:10:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:10:17 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
21:14:19 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:24:35 -!- Tritonio has joined.
21:27:23 -!- g2watson has joined.
21:27:47 <Sgeo_> What if someone doesn't find one of the songs, not paying is probably unethical
21:33:55 <g2watson> how much is mechanical turk per hour anyway
21:39:09 <MDude> MTurk pays people based on how much you offer.
21:39:18 <MDude> With some service transaction, I imagine.
21:39:55 <MDude> MTurk isn't per-hour, it's piecerate.
21:40:21 <MDude> Unless you somehow set a task to require spending a set amount of time doing something.
21:40:27 <MDude> Rather than for the result.
21:40:58 <MDude> Forget why I decided against working for it.
21:44:04 -!- g2watson has changed nick to orin.
21:44:47 <orin> ah. if the price is per task, then it is similar to working on commission
21:46:55 <Sgeo_> Is there a way to safely/ethically set up tasks that may fail?
21:47:19 <Sgeo_> If I don't pay for failure, that's possibly unethical, if I do pay for failure, someone could lie and say they failed
21:47:41 <ais523> Sgeo_: the amount of worry setting this up will cause you
21:47:46 <ais523> is larger than the benefit you'd get if it worked
21:47:57 <MDude> You examine their work and determine yourself if it's a failure.
21:47:58 <zzo38> I think if they failed you shouldn't have to pay if you do not want to
21:48:17 <MDude> Depending on the task it might be possible to determine if they tried.
21:48:43 <MDude> Apparently the common practice is to set the price super low and to generally accept anything.
21:48:47 <Sgeo_> Since here the work is 'finding the name of a song', I don't really have a way to check honestly (except seaching myself) if it's true that they tried and couldn't ind it
21:48:59 <MDude> From what I heard soon after it came out, anyway.
21:49:20 <MDude> If they get you the name, you could easily just put that in a search engine.
21:49:30 <zzo38> If you have enough money maybe you can try by making up fake tasks that you do not need in order to see who is more honestly and so on
21:49:33 <ais523> Sgeo_: I believe there are cellphone "apps" that claim to be able to determine the name of a song from listening to it
21:49:35 <Sgeo_> MDude: which would be a success
21:49:45 <ais523> that might work better
21:49:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:50:00 <Sgeo_> ais523: including MIDIs? I guess I should try it
21:50:17 <ais523> but that might be the best route for you to go down
21:50:23 <zzo38> Extra checking like that ought to cost more of course
21:51:25 <zzo38> About MIDIs, I can tell you something I read once (I think it was in Reader's Digest). To index the music, they mark each note as up, down, or same, and use the string of the first few notes represented in this way, in order to find it. Something similar could be done with MIDI, I suppose.
21:52:13 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
21:52:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:53:04 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
22:01:20 <zzo38> A version of the Magic: the Gathering card "Fruit of the First Tree" with exploit (and possibly also cycling) would be called what?
22:05:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:12:48 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:14:43 -!- zadock has joined.
22:15:28 -!- boily has joined.
22:17:02 <ais523> zzo38: you can't figure out a card name by which mechanics it uses
22:17:12 <zzo38> I know, so I just made one up
22:17:17 <ais523> especially because exploit and cycling haven't been in the same set yet, so we don't know what setting it would be in
22:17:49 <zzo38> I just called it "Fruit of the Third Tree" for now; its mana cost is {1} more and it has exploit and cycling {2}
22:19:34 <zzo38> I don't know the setting either of course
22:20:11 <zzo38> I also made up another card that has a trigger "when any creature is exploited", without caring who or what exploits it.
22:20:19 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:20:29 -!- Lymia has joined.
22:27:15 <zzo38> What setting do you think that would be in?
22:28:34 <FireFly> What do exploit and cycling do+
22:30:20 <ais523> FireFly: exploit is "when CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature", the cards with that ability normally give you some reason why you'd /want/ to
22:30:21 <zzo38> Exploit means when this comes into play, you may sacrifice a creature (the permanent with that ability is then considered to have exploited the sacrificed creature). Cycling means you can pay the cost and then discard it from your hand in order to draw a card.
22:30:48 <ais523> and cycling is "pay «cost», discard CARDNAME from your hand: draw a card" («cost» is traditionally {2} but weirder costs have been seen more recently)
22:33:57 <FireFly> Cycling seems like an interesting mechanic
22:34:07 <zzo38> The newest set invented exploit and megamorph keywords.
22:34:16 <ais523> it's one of the ones they bring out every now and then because they need a card flow mechanic
22:34:27 <zzo38> Both only on creatures, though.
22:34:54 <ais523> right, both mechanics could go on other things
22:35:15 <ais523> although the design intent behind exploit is that you can sacrifice the creature it's on
22:35:19 <ais523> so it's unlikely to go on a noncreature
22:35:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, if it is a creature you can do that, but that doesn't mean it has to be a creature; it just means that if it isn't, then you can't do that unless something else makes it to be a creature.
22:36:16 <ais523> my point is that if they design a mechanic for a specific purpose
22:36:23 <ais523> it's not normally used in contexts where that purpose doesn't work
22:36:46 <zzo38> But my point is that if they design a mechanic for a specific purpose, then you can try to use it for other purposes too.
22:39:23 <zzo38> I also made up card having ninjutsu even though it is not a creature, as well as creature that has both ninjutsu and defender. In the former case, it can come into play tapped but can't attack (unless it is an instant or sorcery in which case it remains in your hand); in the latter case it only attacks once.
22:43:11 <zzo38> Yes, you can also create a table of contents window in PDF. Still I think PDF isn't very good
22:49:54 <ais523> there's a card with defender and haste in future sight
22:50:22 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I have seen that
22:54:40 <zzo38> Add another command that executes shell command like that but sets the locale to C before executing your command.
22:55:02 <FireFly> `` ln -s canary wisdom/canary; ls -l wisdom/canary
22:55:06 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Mar 30 22:56 wisdom/canary -> canary
22:55:22 <FireFly> `` rm wisdom/canary; ln -s ../canary wisdom/canary; ls -l wisdom/canary
22:55:27 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Mar 30 22:57 wisdom/canary -> ../canary
22:57:33 <shachaf> it isn't particularly informative or entertaining
22:57:47 <shachaf> i've been guilty of introducing noise into wisdom/ too, of course
22:58:11 <FireFly> I though actually making use of the canary file was a bit amusing, but alas
22:58:36 <FireFly> I could well be the one being wrong
23:00:52 -!- scott has left.
23:01:03 <zzo38> OK I fixed HackEgo now it can use C locale instead of the stupid one
23:01:19 <zzo38> If you put ``` at the front of the command rather than ``
23:02:40 <orin> english New Zealand?
23:03:58 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
23:04:03 <boily> New Zealand English indeed.
23:04:11 <boily> (en_CA's the best, tho :D)
23:04:39 <zzo38> I am also Canadian, but I think the best setting should be LANG=C
23:05:44 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
23:06:56 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:07:18 <zzo38> No I want LANG=C any other setting is no good. It can also be useful to set different settings for telephone, money, etc but even then it should be part of the database probably, rather than using the wrong setting for the database and cause a mess.
23:08:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ELONGATED CHICKEN).
23:08:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: STAPLED CHICKEN).
23:08:50 <zzo38> My opinion is also to make CLI message always print in English (or in an abbreviated form), but GUI and documentation can use any languages, possibly multiple in case people of different language want to read this documentation too.
23:09:22 <zzo38> (Not only always in English, but also they should always be in ASCII too, as much as possible.)
23:09:36 <shachaf> What if I don't like English?
23:10:05 <HackEgo> aa_DJ \ aa_DJ.utf8 \ aa_ER \ aa_ER@saaho \ aa_ET \ af_ZA \ af_ZA.utf8 \ am_ET \ an_ES \ an_ES.utf8 \ ar_AE \ ar_AE.utf8 \ ar_BH \ ar_BH.utf8 \ ar_DZ \ ar_DZ.utf8 \ ar_EG \ ar_EG.utf8 \ ar_IN \ ar_IQ \ ar_IQ.utf8 \ ar_JO \ ar_JO.utf8 \ ar_KW \ ar_KW.utf8 \ ar_LB \ ar_LB.utf8 \ ar_LY \ ar_LY.utf8 \ ar_MA \ ar_MA.utf8 \ ar_OM \ ar_OM.utf8 \ ar_QA \ ar
23:10:42 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can access the documentation in the language that you do like instead.
23:11:11 <int-e> `` LC_ALL=ar_LB.utf8 echo > /dev/full
23:11:12 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
23:12:33 <int-e> `` LC_ALL=ru_RU.utf8 /bin/echo > /dev/full # ok, it works in principle...
23:12:34 <HackEgo> /bin/echo: ошибка записи: На устройстве кончилось место
23:39:31 <FireFly> `` LC_ALL=ja_JP.utf8 echo >/dev/full
23:39:46 <HackEgo> bash: 0 行: echo: 書き込みエラー: デバイスに空き領域がありません
23:40:08 <shachaf> `` LC_ALL=he_IL.utf8 echo > /dev/full
23:40:09 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
23:51:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:55:48 -!- variable has joined.